The following program
discusses sensitive issues.
00:00:01.36\00:00:03.50
Parents are
cautioned that some material
00:00:03.53\00:00:05.27
may be too candid
for younger children.
00:00:05.30\00:00:07.30
Hi, I'm Wayne Blakely
from Coming Out Ministries
00:00:40.54\00:00:43.51
and I'm your host
today on Pure Choices.
00:00:43.54\00:00:46.24
Today, I have a panel
with me, Elder Raymond King,
00:00:46.27\00:00:49.71
Mike Carducci, a
ministry colleague of mine,
00:00:49.74\00:00:53.52
Gene Nanton, an
elder, who has joined us
00:00:53.55\00:00:56.48
and Ron Woolsey, also
a colleague and pastor.
00:00:56.52\00:01:00.49
Elder Raymond
King has been with us,
00:01:00.52\00:01:04.59
with his ministry
00:01:04.63\00:01:06.23
and has, has
been in this ministry
00:01:06.26\00:01:09.06
for a number of
years about sexual purity.
00:01:09.10\00:01:11.90
Today, we're going
to talk about a topic
00:01:11.93\00:01:14.30
that has been of
great concern for me
00:01:14.34\00:01:17.24
and that is the
topic of homophobia,
00:01:17.27\00:01:19.81
homophobia acidic
zests in the church today.
00:01:19.84\00:01:23.04
Gene, could you share
with us a little bit today,
00:01:23.08\00:01:26.68
some of your feelings
00:01:26.72\00:01:28.28
and what you have observed
taking place in Christianity
00:01:28.32\00:01:31.65
and how it relates to the
same sex attracted individual?
00:01:31.69\00:01:35.46
It seems to me more
that the church is afraid
00:01:35.49\00:01:37.66
to deal with the issue.
00:01:37.69\00:01:39.36
That it's repressed
00:01:39.39\00:01:41.00
and it just doesn't get
the exposure that it needs to,
00:01:41.03\00:01:44.77
as Jesus says, we
gotta love everyone.
00:01:44.80\00:01:47.20
Right, exactly.
00:01:47.24\00:01:48.57
And we gotta love the sinner,
even if we abhor the sin.
00:01:48.60\00:01:51.67
Right.
00:01:51.71\00:01:53.04
And I think it needs to
come more out into the open
00:01:53.07\00:01:56.01
and we need to be
able to discuss it
00:01:56.04\00:01:57.55
so that we can
embrace our brothers,
00:01:57.58\00:01:59.21
whether they are
gay or adulterers
00:01:59.25\00:02:01.42
or whatever we might be.
00:02:01.45\00:02:03.08
So it is too repressed.
00:02:03.12\00:02:05.19
Yes, I often say
in my presentations
00:02:05.22\00:02:08.32
that, the sin that
we don't talk about
00:02:08.36\00:02:11.39
is like a bacteria
that grows in the dark.
00:02:11.43\00:02:14.30
It just gets bigger
and bigger and bigger.
00:02:14.33\00:02:19.27
So for, for many of us this,
00:02:19.30\00:02:23.17
there's this era
of being isolated
00:02:23.20\00:02:28.38
and that doesn't provide a
very comfortable environment
00:02:28.41\00:02:33.28
when we walk into
a church location,
00:02:33.31\00:02:36.35
that happened to
me in my childhood.
00:02:36.38\00:02:38.75
I felt people that they
were whispering about me,
00:02:38.79\00:02:41.62
they were pointing at me
00:02:41.66\00:02:43.22
and I wasn't even sure
what my own problem was,
00:02:43.26\00:02:45.46
but it seemed like they were
aware of what my problem was.
00:02:45.49\00:02:52.07
So, can we take a look
00:02:52.10\00:02:53.64
at how homophobia has looked
in the past, in the church
00:02:53.67\00:02:58.34
and how it looks today,
00:02:58.37\00:02:59.71
is there a
difference in that, Elder King?
00:02:59.74\00:03:02.64
I think to some degree it is,
00:03:02.68\00:03:04.81
but to other,
in other, it's not.
00:03:04.85\00:03:08.58
I'm reminded about
how I felt about it
00:03:08.62\00:03:12.29
before my interest into church.
00:03:12.32\00:03:16.69
In our culture, we actually
look down upon individuals
00:03:16.73\00:03:22.90
who were feminine.
00:03:22.93\00:03:26.80
We use derogatory names,
00:03:26.84\00:03:30.51
we actually picked fun at them
00:03:30.54\00:03:34.88
but to a great degree,
it was based upon ignorance.
00:03:34.91\00:03:39.28
And when I look at
how I felt about it,
00:03:39.31\00:03:44.19
before me coming to the church
00:03:44.22\00:03:47.46
and how I felt about it
once I got into the church,
00:03:47.49\00:03:50.49
there was no difference.
00:03:50.53\00:03:52.06
The difference did not
come in my personal life
00:03:52.09\00:03:54.56
until I became acquainted,
00:03:54.60\00:03:57.53
more knowledgeable
00:03:57.57\00:03:58.90
about this whole
thing called homosexuality.
00:03:58.93\00:04:02.44
And so when you
ask the question,
00:04:02.47\00:04:05.01
is there any difference between
the way it was before and now,
00:04:05.04\00:04:08.84
I believe that the
same level of ignorance
00:04:08.88\00:04:12.78
is still experienced
now as it was before.
00:04:12.81\00:04:16.48
And because that level of
ignorance is still present,
00:04:16.52\00:04:20.99
we're not doing
anything to be a benefit,
00:04:21.02\00:04:24.29
in actuality, we
actually appall the problem.
00:04:24.33\00:04:28.43
Yeah, I think you're right.
00:04:28.46\00:04:30.97
You know, Mike,
we've talked about this
00:04:31.00\00:04:32.97
just individually, one on one.
00:04:33.00\00:04:35.00
Do you think there is
a different perception
00:04:35.04\00:04:37.01
from the person who is
same sex attracted about,
00:04:37.04\00:04:40.51
what homophobia is versus,
00:04:40.54\00:04:42.98
you know, how it's thrown
around in church culture today
00:04:43.01\00:04:46.25
and, and what the gay
community kind of puts on,
00:04:46.28\00:04:49.18
the church culture,
sometimes they're saying that,
00:04:49.22\00:04:51.22
"Oh, they're,
they're homophobic?"
00:04:51.25\00:04:53.15
Is there a difference
in how they perceive it
00:04:53.19\00:04:56.52
and how the church perceives it?
00:04:56.56\00:04:58.73
Well, you know,
Wayne, we talked a lot about
00:04:58.76\00:05:01.60
one of the issues
that we personally,
00:05:01.63\00:05:04.33
you know, have struggled with,
has been this oversensitivity.
00:05:04.37\00:05:07.57
So it's difficult to know
how much of that plays into,
00:05:07.60\00:05:11.11
you know, what
we were experiencing
00:05:11.14\00:05:12.81
before we left the church.
00:05:12.84\00:05:14.74
I know for me personally,
what was happening is,
00:05:14.78\00:05:17.41
I viewed their
silence as a judgment.
00:05:17.45\00:05:19.98
I viewed the fact that there
wasn't any legitimate resources
00:05:20.02\00:05:22.88
in the church to deal with
what I was struggling with,
00:05:22.92\00:05:25.29
nor could I find
anybody that I felt safe with
00:05:25.32\00:05:28.29
to open up about the issue
that I was struggling with.
00:05:28.32\00:05:30.53
And what I was hearing
in the community was that,
00:05:30.56\00:05:33.09
you know, homosexuality was a,
00:05:33.13\00:05:35.40
it was a sin that was so low
00:05:35.43\00:05:37.47
that we weren't
even gonna address it.
00:05:37.50\00:05:39.07
It's almost like homosexuals
weren't even worth saving,
00:05:39.10\00:05:42.20
like don't even waste your time.
00:05:42.24\00:05:44.21
And so when I
left church culture
00:05:44.24\00:05:46.84
more than 30 years
ago, as a 20-year-old man,
00:05:46.88\00:05:50.25
I left because there
were no legitimate resources
00:05:50.28\00:05:52.65
in the church.
00:05:52.68\00:05:54.02
And what I wasn't
getting, I mean, I was masking,
00:05:54.05\00:05:56.18
I was, I was covering up
00:05:56.22\00:05:57.59
what I was really
struggling with for fear
00:05:57.62\00:05:59.25
that I would get found out,
00:05:59.29\00:06:00.76
for fear of even more judgment
00:06:00.79\00:06:02.56
or ridicule or
even condemnation.
00:06:02.59\00:06:04.89
But when I walked out of
church culture 30 years ago,
00:06:04.93\00:06:07.96
the general
understanding was that
00:06:08.00\00:06:09.66
homosexuality wasn't something
to talk about or redeemable.
00:06:09.70\00:06:13.17
And so basically,
00:06:13.20\00:06:14.54
that actually led the way for me
00:06:14.57\00:06:16.04
to walk right out
of church culture.
00:06:16.07\00:06:18.01
What I found was
20 some years later,
00:06:18.04\00:06:20.98
when I came back
into church culture,
00:06:21.01\00:06:23.85
what I found was it was
almost like this paradigm shift
00:06:23.88\00:06:26.78
and as I began my
own personal ministry,
00:06:26.82\00:06:30.32
what I found was,
00:06:30.35\00:06:31.69
that now there is
the swing the other way
00:06:31.72\00:06:33.79
that
homosexuality in church culture,
00:06:33.82\00:06:36.46
in Christianity,
00:06:36.49\00:06:37.83
is now considered an
alternative lifestyle.
00:06:37.86\00:06:40.16
And what's happened is
there are films to promote this,
00:06:40.20\00:06:43.10
there are actual pastors
00:06:43.13\00:06:44.83
that are promoting
it in their churches
00:06:44.87\00:06:46.84
and causing a division
in the churches saying,
00:06:46.87\00:06:48.90
"We need to let
these homosexuals
00:06:48.94\00:06:50.61
come into church
00:06:50.64\00:06:51.97
and to be who they are
without the hope of change."
00:06:52.01\00:06:56.38
And the real surprise
to me is the fact that,
00:06:56.41\00:06:59.25
that makes
Jesus Christ impotent.
00:06:59.28\00:07:00.92
It means that he is
not able to reach out
00:07:00.95\00:07:03.49
and to save those people,
00:07:03.52\00:07:04.85
so for me, there
is this huge change
00:07:04.89\00:07:06.96
from what I
remember 30 years ago,
00:07:06.99\00:07:09.82
you know, that
was very homophobic,
00:07:09.86\00:07:11.53
where as now it's
swung almost the other way.
00:07:11.56\00:07:13.40
And what I found is
I'm still in the middle,
00:07:13.43\00:07:16.26
you know, being
under the attack of those
00:07:16.30\00:07:20.14
that think that it's
an alternative life style,
00:07:20.17\00:07:22.10
when I clearly stand
as a redeemed homosexual,
00:07:22.14\00:07:24.97
you know, whereas
before, I was condemned
00:07:25.01\00:07:27.64
also because I was a
homosexual without grace.
00:07:27.68\00:07:31.28
Yes.
00:07:31.31\00:07:32.78
And I think there's
almost this fault accusation
00:07:32.81\00:07:36.48
at the church, at times
too, is that we don't always...
00:07:36.52\00:07:41.12
we don't always approve of
what someone's behaviors are
00:07:41.16\00:07:44.99
but because we
don't approve of them
00:07:45.03\00:07:47.20
or their lifestyle,
00:07:47.23\00:07:48.80
that doesn't mean that we
don't love the individual.
00:07:48.83\00:07:51.87
So inside the church,
00:07:51.90\00:07:53.27
you know, when I
share in the churches today,
00:07:53.30\00:07:55.07
to me, actually homophobia,
00:07:55.10\00:07:57.57
the insult of homophobia
to me is the unwillingness
00:07:57.61\00:08:01.31
to be able to reach out
with the love of Jesus Christ
00:08:01.34\00:08:04.48
and embrace, not
just homosexuals,
00:08:04.51\00:08:06.95
but any sinner who
is struggling out there,
00:08:06.98\00:08:10.15
that we need to
look at individuals
00:08:10.19\00:08:12.82
and reflect the love
of Jesus Christ to them
00:08:12.85\00:08:15.82
and draw them in, to
gain more of His word,
00:08:15.86\00:08:20.10
His truth, His healing power,
00:08:20.13\00:08:22.50
and to me, that's
an embracive message
00:08:22.53\00:08:25.23
to the gay community,
00:08:25.27\00:08:27.77
instead of one that is just,
00:08:27.80\00:08:29.97
maybe viewed as
the gay community
00:08:30.01\00:08:31.84
views at sometimes,
that's been that as homophobia.
00:08:31.87\00:08:35.64
Ron, what are
your thoughts on this?
00:08:35.68\00:08:37.71
You know, when I was
growing up in the church,
00:08:37.75\00:08:40.35
I was very silent
about my struggle.
00:08:40.38\00:08:43.18
No one knew that
I had a struggle,
00:08:43.22\00:08:45.79
but I suppose the thing
that was so frustrating to me,
00:08:45.82\00:08:49.89
that left me without hope,
00:08:49.92\00:08:52.86
to the point
that I left the church
00:08:52.89\00:08:54.36
like Mike did and you.
00:08:54.40\00:08:57.93
There were, you know,
I'll reiterate what Mike said.
00:08:57.97\00:09:01.10
I was not aware
of any resources.
00:09:01.14\00:09:03.71
The only thing I ever
heard about homosexuality
00:09:03.74\00:09:07.58
from people in the
church was denunciation,
00:09:07.61\00:09:11.08
out castes, something like
you were saying, unredeemable.
00:09:11.11\00:09:15.12
And so I never knew
who to go to talk to,
00:09:15.15\00:09:19.35
as this struggle became more
and more intense in my mind,
00:09:19.39\00:09:23.26
I didn't know where to go.
00:09:23.29\00:09:24.73
And so eventually when
I just threw in the towel
00:09:24.76\00:09:27.26
and gave upon God,
00:09:27.30\00:09:28.63
I just stopped
praying about it all together.
00:09:28.66\00:09:31.53
I consented, I was married,
00:09:31.57\00:09:33.97
I had thought that marriage
00:09:34.00\00:09:35.34
would be the
solution to my struggle.
00:09:35.37\00:09:37.81
What a terrible mistake!
00:09:37.84\00:09:39.21
And what a terrible thing
to do to a Christian young lady
00:09:39.24\00:09:42.24
who is planning on
being a minister's wife.
00:09:42.28\00:09:44.81
Yes.
00:09:44.85\00:09:46.18
And a Christian home maker
00:09:46.21\00:09:47.55
and to find out that
her husband married her
00:09:47.58\00:09:50.45
knowing about his struggle,
00:09:50.49\00:09:52.39
and it was just a
terrible thing to do to her,
00:09:52.42\00:09:56.83
but I did it innocently.
00:09:56.86\00:09:58.79
But as we were
going through our divorce,
00:09:58.83\00:10:02.20
I gave in to the suggestion
00:10:02.23\00:10:04.70
that we go seek some counseling.
00:10:04.73\00:10:06.17
So now in the first time,
00:10:06.20\00:10:07.90
for the first
time in my entire life,
00:10:07.94\00:10:10.34
I went to
counselors about the gay issue.
00:10:10.37\00:10:13.61
These were professionals,
pastors, counselors,
00:10:13.64\00:10:17.18
psychiatrists, psychologists,
00:10:17.21\00:10:20.22
and this is where I felt
the homophobia so strongly,
00:10:20.25\00:10:23.25
where I first experienced
00:10:23.28\00:10:24.92
such intense
ignorance, I would say.
00:10:24.95\00:10:28.26
It wasn't a fear,
it wasn't a hatred
00:10:28.29\00:10:32.43
but the rejection
00:10:32.46\00:10:34.10
because the bottom line,
after all of this counseling,
00:10:34.13\00:10:38.63
my wife was encouraged
to just divorce this man,
00:10:38.67\00:10:42.50
get on with your life,
that kind can never change.
00:10:42.54\00:10:46.11
Now that's where
it really hit me,
00:10:46.14\00:10:48.68
that even leaders in our church,
00:10:48.71\00:10:51.31
professional counselors,
psychiatrists, and pastors,
00:10:51.35\00:10:54.42
had no answers
for people like me.
00:10:54.45\00:10:56.92
So I went into
the world very bitter
00:10:56.95\00:10:59.35
and angry against "God."
00:10:59.39\00:11:01.52
Right.
00:11:01.56\00:11:02.89
Because He can save
others, but He could not save me
00:11:02.92\00:11:06.46
and so the implication is
that, like you were saying,
00:11:06.49\00:11:10.77
God is impotent
rather than omnipotent.
00:11:10.80\00:11:13.60
And that's where
I really experienced
00:11:13.64\00:11:16.81
what we're calling homophobia,
but really it was an ignorance,
00:11:16.84\00:11:21.14
just a lack of information,
00:11:21.18\00:11:22.74
and not really understanding
the plan of salvation.
00:11:22.78\00:11:25.88
Right, you know,
I like to comment,
00:11:25.91\00:11:27.85
piggy back on that,
00:11:27.88\00:11:30.09
as a redeemed homosexual
00:11:30.12\00:11:31.85
and the ministry that
God has given me today
00:11:31.89\00:11:34.76
and given to you guys,
00:11:34.79\00:11:36.66
I have found that
we go to great lengths
00:11:36.69\00:11:39.43
at setting in up,
00:11:39.46\00:11:40.80
speaking engagements at churches
00:11:40.83\00:11:42.26
and sometimes they
take quite a spell of time
00:11:42.30\00:11:45.43
to get anti-speakers
go to the church board
00:11:45.47\00:11:48.94
and it goes through, you
know, quite a delineation
00:11:48.97\00:11:52.37
of deciding
whether we will be allowed
00:11:52.41\00:11:54.48
to come and speak or not.
00:11:54.51\00:11:56.04
And once there, I
frequently have pastors
00:11:56.08\00:11:59.25
that will come up to me
and say to me afterwards,
00:11:59.28\00:12:02.18
"I just wanted you to know that,
00:12:02.22\00:12:03.99
that there were, you know,
00:12:04.02\00:12:05.35
three of my congregation
that came to me and told me
00:12:05.39\00:12:09.36
that they would not
be attending this weekend
00:12:09.39\00:12:11.79
due to the nature of the topic."
00:12:11.83\00:12:14.20
And so, you know,
00:12:14.23\00:12:15.73
it really doesn't faze
me that much today as to,
00:12:15.76\00:12:18.17
you know, if you
don't want to be there,
00:12:18.20\00:12:19.57
that's perfectly fine.
00:12:19.60\00:12:20.94
But what entices me
into, to talk to the pastor
00:12:20.97\00:12:24.47
more about it or to
kind of analyze this is,
00:12:24.51\00:12:27.21
is what is that's
keeping this person away
00:12:27.24\00:12:31.01
that has, who is
proclaiming to know Jesus,
00:12:31.05\00:12:34.38
who is
proclaiming to be a Christian
00:12:34.42\00:12:36.69
and a believer in Jesus Christ.
00:12:36.72\00:12:38.45
If someone truly knows
the love of Jesus Christ,
00:12:38.49\00:12:42.19
why wouldn't you
want to be present
00:12:42.22\00:12:44.66
for a message such as
this, are there comments
00:12:44.69\00:12:47.80
that any of you
like to make on that?
00:12:47.83\00:12:49.83
One of the things
that I've experienced
00:12:53.07\00:12:55.44
and we've all talked
about this, Ron, Wayne,
00:12:55.47\00:12:57.67
and we've talked about how
difficult it is to get past
00:12:57.71\00:13:02.74
if you would, that big brick
wall of going into a church
00:13:02.78\00:13:05.78
and getting an opportunity
to give our presentation.
00:13:05.81\00:13:08.98
The incredible thing
00:13:09.02\00:13:10.35
or the experience that
I think all of us have had
00:13:10.39\00:13:12.29
each and every time,
00:13:12.32\00:13:13.69
is once we started to
give this presentation,
00:13:13.72\00:13:16.02
people come forward,
00:13:16.06\00:13:18.49
exuberant about the
fact that they thought
00:13:18.53\00:13:21.23
that they were gonna
hear some awful story about,
00:13:21.26\00:13:23.67
being in the gay lifestyle
00:13:23.70\00:13:25.03
and all the things
that we went through,
00:13:25.07\00:13:26.47
when, in fact, what they found
00:13:26.50\00:13:27.84
was the same
redemption for a homosexual,
00:13:27.87\00:13:30.44
it's the same
redemption for every sin.
00:13:30.47\00:13:32.57
And so we're always met
with this resistance at first
00:13:32.61\00:13:35.08
and if we get an
opportunity to get in the door,
00:13:35.11\00:13:38.01
then once we finally
give our presentations,
00:13:38.05\00:13:40.78
the attitude really comes around
00:13:40.82\00:13:42.18
and that's been
challenging to say the least.
00:13:42.22\00:13:45.35
Yes, yes.
00:13:45.39\00:13:46.72
I found a woman that
was on her church board
00:13:46.76\00:13:50.23
I had heard about who
really was campaigning
00:13:50.26\00:13:52.53
against my coming to the church.
00:13:52.56\00:13:56.03
And she didn't
want me to be there
00:13:56.06\00:13:58.03
under any circumstances at all.
00:13:58.07\00:13:59.90
And I guess it was God's
plan that when I was invited
00:13:59.93\00:14:03.81
and they did allow
me to come and speak,
00:14:03.84\00:14:06.31
she did come
throughout the entire weekend
00:14:06.34\00:14:08.58
and she went to
the person afterwards
00:14:08.61\00:14:10.35
who had initiated the invitation
00:14:10.38\00:14:12.88
and said, "Thank you so
much for inviting Wayne Blakely
00:14:12.91\00:14:17.39
to speak at our church."
00:14:17.42\00:14:18.79
Because it was nothing like
00:14:18.82\00:14:20.46
what she
thought it was gonna be.
00:14:20.49\00:14:21.82
So I think it's that fear factor
00:14:21.86\00:14:24.83
about not knowing,
are we going to be for it?
00:14:24.86\00:14:27.50
Are we gonna be against it?
00:14:27.53\00:14:28.96
You know, what are
we gonna say about it?
00:14:29.00\00:14:30.33
Does somebody have somebody
in their family that's gay
00:14:30.37\00:14:33.54
and is this gonna
change their opinion
00:14:33.57\00:14:35.87
of how they feel
about their own child?
00:14:35.90\00:14:38.17
And I have tried to put
out there to people is that,
00:14:38.21\00:14:41.84
you know, we...
00:14:41.88\00:14:43.48
Like God loves us,
00:14:43.51\00:14:44.85
but God loved us
while we were still sinners.
00:14:44.88\00:14:47.12
That's right.
00:14:47.15\00:14:48.48
We don't need
to compromise truth
00:14:48.52\00:14:50.35
in order to keep
loving our loved one.
00:14:50.39\00:14:53.19
Elder King, you know,
00:14:53.22\00:14:54.56
you've had this
ministry with regards
00:14:54.59\00:14:56.56
just to sexual
purity for sometime now.
00:14:56.59\00:14:59.29
You've really been out there
and been bold and initially,
00:14:59.33\00:15:02.50
probably without
very much support.
00:15:02.53\00:15:04.83
Can you tell me
what you would say
00:15:04.87\00:15:06.94
to church
leadership or to pastors today
00:15:06.97\00:15:11.04
that would help
them change their mind
00:15:11.07\00:15:13.58
about being so stand-offish
about inviting someone to come
00:15:13.61\00:15:17.75
and talk about the
redemption of homosexuality?
00:15:17.78\00:15:21.42
One thing that
has to be made known
00:15:21.45\00:15:24.39
is that the environment,
00:15:24.42\00:15:27.99
that a lot of our children
visit everyday at school
00:15:28.02\00:15:32.23
is different
from the environment
00:15:32.26\00:15:33.86
that their parents remember.
00:15:33.90\00:15:36.03
And because this promotion,
00:15:36.06\00:15:38.07
I call it the
kind of fictionality,
00:15:38.10\00:15:40.57
the agenda to promote
it, push it on our children,
00:15:40.60\00:15:44.01
expose them to it, as
early as four years old,
00:15:44.04\00:15:47.54
is so great and so prevalent.
00:15:47.58\00:15:49.88
We have to start dealing with it
00:15:49.91\00:15:51.78
because if we don't
start talking about it,
00:15:51.81\00:15:54.95
more and more of our
children are now being,
00:15:54.98\00:15:59.02
I mean, they were evangelized
into trying this out.
00:15:59.05\00:16:03.06
Evangelized into testing
to see what they really are.
00:16:03.09\00:16:08.43
I have to admit that
00:16:08.46\00:16:09.80
one of the reasons
that you may be seeing
00:16:09.83\00:16:13.20
or the rejection that
you're seeing is because,
00:16:13.23\00:16:15.70
there are a lot
more of our children
00:16:15.74\00:16:20.11
now come to
their parents saying,
00:16:20.14\00:16:22.54
"Mom, Dad, I'm
gay. I'm homosexual."
00:16:22.58\00:16:25.68
And if we can understand that
00:16:25.71\00:16:30.19
this is a demonic movement
00:16:30.22\00:16:33.86
to destroy young
people as early as possible,
00:16:33.89\00:16:38.16
then we must also understand
00:16:38.19\00:16:39.53
that as the devil
has increased his attack,
00:16:39.56\00:16:42.93
the church must come
forward and show the truth,
00:16:42.96\00:16:45.77
because the Bible said,
"The truth will set you free."
00:16:45.80\00:16:48.27
And so in answer
to your question,
00:16:48.30\00:16:50.64
why is it important that
pastors and church leaders
00:16:50.67\00:16:54.08
grab this bull by the horn,
00:16:54.11\00:16:55.61
because Satan is
like the roaring lion
00:16:55.64\00:16:57.95
seeking who he may devour
00:16:57.98\00:16:59.68
and he's evangelizing
00:16:59.71\00:17:01.62
more and more about
youngsters into his lifestyle.
00:17:01.65\00:17:04.59
We have to
start dealing with it,
00:17:04.62\00:17:06.02
not only from a
perspective of a ministry,
00:17:06.05\00:17:08.62
but also from a
perspective of preventing
00:17:08.66\00:17:12.49
more and more of our youth,
00:17:12.53\00:17:15.40
to embrace in this
movement or this agenda.
00:17:15.43\00:17:18.53
Right, right.
00:17:18.57\00:17:19.90
You know, Wayne, another
story that came to my mind
00:17:19.93\00:17:21.77
as Elder King was
talking is there was a situation
00:17:21.80\00:17:24.87
where this woman wanted
me to come to their church
00:17:24.91\00:17:27.44
and she gave my
information to the secretary.
00:17:27.48\00:17:30.91
And the secretary
took that information
00:17:30.95\00:17:32.71
and basically just filed it,
00:17:32.75\00:17:34.15
and not until this
woman got on to her and said,
00:17:34.18\00:17:36.48
"You need to call
this guy about scheduling."
00:17:36.52\00:17:38.29
She finally called me
and the conversation was,
00:17:38.32\00:17:41.99
"I don't care if you come,"
00:17:42.02\00:17:43.36
and she goes on
that comment, she goes,
00:17:43.39\00:17:44.96
"I'm not really
interested in hearing
00:17:44.99\00:17:46.63
what you have to say."
00:17:46.66\00:17:48.00
And I thought,
"Well, that's interesting
00:17:48.03\00:17:49.36
that a church secretary
would bother to call me
00:17:49.40\00:17:51.83
and to say that I was
going before the board.
00:17:51.87\00:17:53.57
But then to tell me
that she wasn't interested."
00:17:53.60\00:17:55.64
Well, as I basically
tried to keep it open-ended
00:17:55.67\00:17:58.67
and just kind of explore, why?
00:17:58.71\00:18:00.81
She admitted that she
had a son that was gay
00:18:00.84\00:18:03.24
and she was so tired of
people getting in her face
00:18:03.28\00:18:06.01
and telling her
why her son was gay.
00:18:06.05\00:18:08.08
And so as we started dialoguing,
00:18:08.12\00:18:09.92
all I could tell
her was my experience.
00:18:09.95\00:18:12.69
I wasn't there
to attack her son,
00:18:12.72\00:18:14.19
I wasn't there to attack her,
00:18:14.22\00:18:15.89
I was there to try to
offer redemption for anyone,
00:18:15.92\00:18:19.46
whether it's a family
member or a human being,
00:18:19.49\00:18:21.96
an individual they're struggling
00:18:22.00\00:18:23.33
within themselves.
00:18:23.37\00:18:24.70
And what happened is,
just as I started sharing
00:18:24.73\00:18:26.47
what my testimony
was, she started to soften,
00:18:26.50\00:18:29.34
she started to open up
and, Wayne, as you remember,
00:18:29.37\00:18:31.61
she brought us into her home.
00:18:31.64\00:18:32.97
We actually stayed there
00:18:33.01\00:18:34.34
while we did
those presentations,
00:18:34.38\00:18:35.71
and for her son now,
her family is actually,
00:18:35.74\00:18:38.65
actively engaged in
claiming back her son
00:18:38.68\00:18:41.22
from this homosexual lifestyle.
00:18:41.25\00:18:43.02
So what's amazing is,
00:18:43.05\00:18:44.39
her indifference and
her defense against it,
00:18:44.42\00:18:46.49
was also keeping her
00:18:46.52\00:18:47.86
from praying for her own son.
00:18:47.89\00:18:49.22
And now, she is totally on board
00:18:49.26\00:18:50.79
and recognizing the
power of the Holy Spirit
00:18:50.83\00:18:52.73
to intervene in her family.
00:18:52.76\00:18:54.10
This is I... Yes, this is the...
00:18:54.13\00:18:55.46
I'm sorry. Gene, go ahead.
00:18:55.50\00:18:57.70
This to me is the important
of ministries like yours.
00:18:57.73\00:18:59.77
Yes.
00:18:59.80\00:19:01.14
Because so often our churches
are afraid to face it full on,
00:19:01.17\00:19:03.74
we have this fear, we
have this lack of security,
00:19:03.77\00:19:07.08
we have this lack of resources.
00:19:07.11\00:19:09.34
But then, having you
guys come to our church
00:19:09.38\00:19:12.88
made such a difference to
that homophobia in our church.
00:19:12.91\00:19:16.99
It melted it, it
made it disappear,
00:19:17.02\00:19:19.85
it made us see you guys
00:19:19.89\00:19:21.79
as people who
have been redeemed.
00:19:21.82\00:19:23.32
Absolutely.
00:19:23.36\00:19:24.69
And it showed us that
we need redemption too.
00:19:24.73\00:19:27.70
And that, isn't that what
Christ wants for all of us,
00:19:27.73\00:19:30.80
regardless of our situation?
00:19:30.83\00:19:32.17
Yes.
00:19:32.20\00:19:33.54
You know, I would
like to encourage,
00:19:33.57\00:19:34.90
I mean, there are
probably our pastors,
00:19:34.94\00:19:36.64
and church members, and leaders
00:19:36.67\00:19:38.01
that are watching
this program today.
00:19:38.04\00:19:40.84
And I would just
like to suggest that
00:19:40.88\00:19:43.08
our type of
conversion is considered to be
00:19:43.11\00:19:46.05
an extreme conversion.
00:19:46.08\00:19:47.85
I've heard that term before,
this is an extreme conversion.
00:19:47.88\00:19:51.59
There is a fellow who came to me
00:19:51.62\00:19:53.02
after hearing
titbits about my life,
00:19:53.05\00:19:55.66
before I ever even
talked openly about it,
00:19:55.69\00:19:57.56
but he heard
where I had come from,
00:19:57.59\00:20:00.36
and he came to me and he said,
00:20:00.40\00:20:02.06
"Man, Pastor Ron,
if God can save you,
00:20:02.10\00:20:06.90
He can save anybody."
00:20:06.94\00:20:08.27
Amen. Amen
00:20:08.30\00:20:09.64
And so, what I would
like to put out there
00:20:09.67\00:20:13.21
for the listening
audience today is,
00:20:13.24\00:20:15.38
we come presenting the
gospel and as people see
00:20:15.41\00:20:18.91
that God can save
someone like Mike,
00:20:18.95\00:20:22.58
and Wayne, and Ron...
00:20:22.62\00:20:24.49
And me. Yeah, that's right.
00:20:24.52\00:20:26.62
Then they get it
that God is mighty
00:20:26.65\00:20:29.56
to save the
whosoever from whatsoever,
00:20:29.59\00:20:33.13
even to the uttermost.
00:20:33.16\00:20:34.66
And we have a...
00:20:34.70\00:20:37.13
we have a little
niche that we can really
00:20:37.17\00:20:40.30
present the
gospel in a special way
00:20:40.34\00:20:42.37
to a certain type of
people that may feel hopeless.
00:20:42.40\00:20:46.41
And I'm not talking about
just the homosexual issue.
00:20:46.44\00:20:47.81
Right.
00:20:47.84\00:20:49.18
There are number
of types of people
00:20:49.21\00:20:51.68
that feel hopeless,
00:20:51.71\00:20:53.08
that salvation
is for everyone else
00:20:53.11\00:20:55.32
but not for them.
00:20:55.35\00:20:56.69
And I really feel that
God has called us from that,
00:20:56.72\00:21:00.09
this extreme
conversion that we've had,
00:21:00.12\00:21:02.86
to demonstrate and to teach
00:21:02.89\00:21:04.83
that the gospel
is for everybody.
00:21:04.86\00:21:07.20
Yes. That's right.
00:21:07.23\00:21:08.56
You know, the present,
00:21:08.60\00:21:09.93
one of the
presentations that I give,
00:21:09.96\00:21:12.93
it's during the church service,
00:21:12.97\00:21:14.60
you know, many people
have come to find out,
00:21:14.64\00:21:16.81
so what can I do to
reach out to the homosexual?
00:21:16.84\00:21:20.08
Or what can I do to
make somebody straight
00:21:20.11\00:21:23.14
or make them like me?
00:21:23.18\00:21:25.15
And so, one of the
lines that I use is that,
00:21:25.18\00:21:28.78
"We can't share
what we don't have."
00:21:28.82\00:21:31.39
And I have found
in many congregations,
00:21:31.42\00:21:34.42
is that, what's
lacking in many congregations
00:21:34.46\00:21:37.66
is the same
intimacy with Jesus Christ,
00:21:37.69\00:21:40.63
that Jesus was
convicting my heart
00:21:40.66\00:21:42.96
that I needed with Him.
00:21:43.00\00:21:44.63
So I want to draw the
listeners and congregations
00:21:44.67\00:21:48.60
and also the viewers to
engage with Jesus Christ
00:21:48.64\00:21:52.24
and get to know Him.
00:21:52.27\00:21:53.61
Spend that time, go
to Jesus, go to His word,
00:21:53.64\00:21:57.25
go to parts of the word
00:21:57.28\00:21:58.95
where you know you're
going to easily understand Him,
00:21:58.98\00:22:01.28
the gospels.
00:22:01.32\00:22:03.59
And then begin to
spend time in prayer
00:22:03.62\00:22:06.55
and ask God to fill
you with the Holy Spirit
00:22:06.59\00:22:09.96
and with truth
because it's the truth
00:22:09.99\00:22:11.99
that sets us free.
00:22:12.03\00:22:13.36
And then as we are
beginning to be filled
00:22:13.40\00:22:15.76
with the presence
of Jesus in our lives,
00:22:15.80\00:22:18.23
He begins to open up
opportunities for us to share
00:22:18.27\00:22:21.94
with others and
it doesn't matter
00:22:21.97\00:22:23.91
then whether it's a homosexual,
00:22:23.94\00:22:26.11
a prostitute,
somebody's full of pride,
00:22:26.14\00:22:28.68
somebody who is an overeater.
00:22:28.71\00:22:30.88
If we're living in
the presence of God
00:22:30.91\00:22:33.18
and seeking to do His will,
00:22:33.21\00:22:35.55
that we don't go to someone
00:22:35.58\00:22:36.92
and we don't clover
them over the head as though
00:22:36.95\00:22:39.05
we're going to
set them straight,
00:22:39.09\00:22:41.16
but that we are
going to love them
00:22:41.19\00:22:44.29
and that this Holy
Spirit open up the opportunities
00:22:44.33\00:22:47.53
of which we can begin to bring
00:22:47.56\00:22:50.20
that person into
the presence of God
00:22:50.23\00:22:52.00
so that they can have
00:22:52.03\00:22:53.37
and hear Jesus Christ
speaking to them, themselves.
00:22:53.40\00:22:56.34
You know, Wayne,
00:22:56.37\00:22:57.71
it was a
testimony that gave me hope.
00:22:57.74\00:23:00.34
It wasn't until
I saw a testimony
00:23:00.38\00:23:02.84
that was outside
of my denomination,
00:23:02.88\00:23:04.48
but when I watched it,
00:23:04.51\00:23:05.91
I recognized that if
God could work in his life,
00:23:05.95\00:23:09.48
then he certainly
could work in mine
00:23:09.52\00:23:10.85
and that was a
turning point for me.
00:23:10.89\00:23:13.12
And I believe that,
00:23:13.15\00:23:15.09
Revelation speaks of it as well,
00:23:15.12\00:23:16.93
that they overcame and
by the blood of the lamb
00:23:16.96\00:23:19.16
and by the word
of their testimony.
00:23:19.19\00:23:20.53
Amen.
00:23:20.56\00:23:21.90
And it doesn't say
what they overcame,
00:23:21.93\00:23:23.26
so I believe that it's open,
it's not just homosexuality.
00:23:23.30\00:23:25.33
That's right.
00:23:25.37\00:23:26.70
It's every sin
problem by our testimony.
00:23:26.74\00:23:29.04
You know
something, if the church,
00:23:29.07\00:23:32.61
if pastors, if leaders,
start to make this a priority
00:23:32.64\00:23:38.51
as far as ministry is concerned,
00:23:38.55\00:23:40.82
it creates a safe haven,
00:23:40.85\00:23:43.52
inviting our element
or inviting environment
00:23:43.55\00:23:46.59
for people who are struggling.
00:23:46.62\00:23:47.96
Yes.
00:23:47.99\00:23:49.32
A lot of times, people,
00:23:49.36\00:23:51.19
there are many of the
people who are struggling
00:23:51.23\00:23:53.76
but as you said, where do I go?
00:23:53.80\00:23:56.87
But if churches
start to deal with this,
00:23:56.90\00:24:00.60
it gives individuals who
are struggling permission,
00:24:00.64\00:24:03.67
to start coming down
and talking about it.
00:24:03.71\00:24:05.94
One thing we did was
00:24:05.97\00:24:07.31
we had a public
forum in our city
00:24:07.34\00:24:10.08
and we actually
invited homosexual pastors
00:24:10.11\00:24:13.55
who had their own
churches to this public forum
00:24:13.58\00:24:16.82
and what happened was
the people who showed up,
00:24:16.85\00:24:22.39
who may have had
some type of apprehension
00:24:22.42\00:24:24.86
about being around homosexuals,
00:24:24.89\00:24:27.86
when they saw all
these people, as people,
00:24:27.90\00:24:31.53
it changed the
whole perspective.
00:24:31.57\00:24:32.90
Yes.
00:24:32.93\00:24:34.27
And so it is really interesting
because I was wondering,
00:24:34.30\00:24:36.50
will people show up, you know.
00:24:36.54\00:24:38.21
But people said,
like you said earlier,
00:24:38.24\00:24:41.24
thank you for
having us because now,
00:24:41.28\00:24:42.98
I have a different perspective.
00:24:43.01\00:24:44.88
The only thing that prevents us
00:24:44.91\00:24:46.72
from being
successful in our ministry
00:24:46.75\00:24:50.19
is that we let
things to minister.
00:24:50.22\00:24:52.32
And I submit that,
00:24:52.35\00:24:53.86
that the devil is
trying to keep us locked up
00:24:53.89\00:24:56.36
in this ignorance
but if we start believing
00:24:56.39\00:24:58.76
in the scriptures
that God can do anything
00:24:58.79\00:25:01.13
and then
putting God to the test,
00:25:01.16\00:25:02.76
I believe we'll start
seeing some things happening.
00:25:02.80\00:25:04.47
So homophobia
is a fear of right,
00:25:04.50\00:25:07.54
and we know that
perfect love castes out fear,
00:25:07.57\00:25:10.84
is it possible...
00:25:10.87\00:25:12.21
Castes out fear. All fear.
00:25:12.24\00:25:13.58
That's right, all fear.
00:25:13.61\00:25:14.94
So is it possible
then that the homophobia
00:25:14.98\00:25:16.31
that we're
experiencing in the church
00:25:16.34\00:25:17.91
is really nothing
more than symptomatic
00:25:17.95\00:25:20.15
of the fact that
people in the church
00:25:20.18\00:25:22.12
who are
experiencing this homophobia,
00:25:22.15\00:25:24.02
this fear of anything,
00:25:24.05\00:25:25.52
they're not in touch
with the goodness of God,
00:25:25.55\00:25:28.06
the love that Jesus
has for each one of us.
00:25:28.09\00:25:30.23
So again, if we can
break down the homophobia,
00:25:30.26\00:25:33.40
I believe then we can
create a safe environment
00:25:33.43\00:25:35.90
where people can come in
and experience redemption
00:25:35.93\00:25:38.43
through authentic experiences.
00:25:38.47\00:25:41.04
But would you also say that
we should not make a mistake
00:25:41.07\00:25:44.31
in labeling homophobia?
00:25:44.34\00:25:48.48
Other words,
00:25:48.51\00:25:49.84
if we do not accept the activity
00:25:49.88\00:25:53.18
that is what we
have been labeled,
00:25:53.21\00:25:56.32
those who did not
accept the entire package
00:25:56.35\00:25:58.75
have been labeled homophobic,
00:25:58.79\00:26:00.12
but we are not homophobic
in regards to the activity,
00:26:00.16\00:26:04.19
I mean, the person,
00:26:04.23\00:26:05.56
we're
homophobic to the activity,
00:26:05.59\00:26:07.00
that is what, we
don't embrace the activity.
00:26:07.03\00:26:08.70
Okay.
00:26:08.73\00:26:10.07
What's trying to be,
we're trying to label churches,
00:26:10.10\00:26:14.00
if you all don't accept
the scenario into our package,
00:26:14.04\00:26:16.30
then you're homophobic,
00:26:16.34\00:26:17.71
and with that resource in us
00:26:17.74\00:26:19.31
not saying
anything about anything,
00:26:19.34\00:26:20.84
we're gonna need to get
out of that mass, at His will.
00:26:20.88\00:26:22.48
Yeah, that's the wrong message.
00:26:22.51\00:26:24.61
We need, yeah, it comes
back to loving the sinner,
00:26:24.65\00:26:27.98
not the sin.
00:26:28.02\00:26:29.35
And so, you know,
00:26:29.38\00:26:30.72
I'd like to point a
little bit here too,
00:26:30.75\00:26:34.82
that when we were
brought back to Jesus Christ,
00:26:34.86\00:26:37.59
it was through
divine intervention
00:26:37.63\00:26:40.03
and that has been something
00:26:40.06\00:26:41.40
that the church
has counted on for,
00:26:41.43\00:26:42.90
you know, a 150
years of the denomination
00:26:42.93\00:26:45.17
that I'm connected with,
00:26:45.20\00:26:46.60
is that God will
take care of this,
00:26:46.63\00:26:48.87
but we need to recognize
00:26:48.90\00:26:50.51
that each and every
member of our churches
00:26:50.54\00:26:53.71
are disciples of Christ.
00:26:53.74\00:26:55.38
And so they need to be able
00:26:55.41\00:26:57.15
to come in contact
with Jesus themselves
00:26:57.18\00:27:00.18
and be able to see their
role in being able to reach out
00:27:00.22\00:27:04.39
to someone who is
desperately hungry
00:27:04.42\00:27:06.62
for the love of Jesus Christ.
00:27:06.65\00:27:07.99
Amen.
00:27:08.02\00:27:09.36
So again, it's not
about the clobber techniques
00:27:09.39\00:27:11.39
because somebody, you know,
00:27:11.43\00:27:12.76
it wasn't any of us
00:27:12.79\00:27:14.30
that a church member came
to and took the Bible and said,
00:27:14.33\00:27:17.37
"Listen, you will
not commit this sin."
00:27:17.40\00:27:19.83
You know, it's the gay...
00:27:19.87\00:27:22.54
That comes back to that
person on the street corner
00:27:22.57\00:27:24.97
that's holding up the sign
that says "God hates facts."
00:27:25.01\00:27:27.74
That's not gonna draw
someone into the church.
00:27:27.78\00:27:30.25
So as an audience, as a pastor,
00:27:30.28\00:27:32.58
as somebody who is a
believer in Jesus Christ,
00:27:32.61\00:27:35.28
I would invite
you to engage with Him
00:27:35.32\00:27:38.35
and then begin to
see what He can do
00:27:38.39\00:27:40.49
with your life in drawing others
00:27:40.52\00:27:43.19
to come to Jesus
Christ and come to recognize
00:27:43.22\00:27:46.43
and enjoy that
love in Jesus Christ.
00:27:46.46\00:27:48.80
Please join us
again, here on Pure Choices.
00:27:48.83\00:27:51.67