Welcome to Pure Choices.
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We're so glad that
you join us again today
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for another
episode of these hot topics
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that we've been dealing with.
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As we go into this topic,
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I just want to
introduce my panel again,
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my colleagues, we
have Pastor Alfonzo Greene
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who's here from the Huntsville,
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First SDA Church in
Huntsville, Alabama.
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We have Pastor Mike Polite
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who is the associate
pastor at the Riverside,
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SDA church in
Nashville, Tennessee.
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We have Pastor Lola Moore
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who is here with us from
the Oakwood University Church
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in Huntsville, Alabama.
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And then we have my
brother Pastor Michael B. Kelly
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the second I believe
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who is here all
the way from California
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the Riverside area,
Mt. Rubidoux SDA Church.
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So I'm glad that
you all here today.
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Today we're going to be dealing
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with probably one
of the hottest topics
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that we're going to
tackle all season long
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and that is homosexuality.
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It's something that we know
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is growing more
and more in the church,
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it's growing in society.
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There is really a
strong movement for it.
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And we just really
want to deal with it.
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And we want to give
our viewers some advice
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and counsel the Word
of God on this issue.
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So that they can be
educated and edified
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concerning this topic.
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Now I know that a question that
is on a lot of people's minds
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when it comes to homosexuality
is nature versus nurture.
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You know, was I born this way?
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Was this something that
I picked up along the way?
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Was I socialized this way?
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And so we're just gonna
ahead and jump in right there
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and really just
trying to bring some clarity
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to this whole issue
of nature versus nurture
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born or socialized
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'cause I'm gonna
throw it out there.
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What do you all,
what are your thoughts?
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What do you think
when you hear out there.
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What does the Word of God say
to you concerning this topic?
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Well, I think it
depends on the person.
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If you surveyed 100 people
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who subscribes to a
homosexual lifestyle,
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I think that you'll
hear 100 different stories
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about how they discovered
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their sexuality
in that direction.
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How it was introduced to them,
they were curious about it.
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So I don't think it's
fair to put anyone in one box.
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I think that
everyone is different.
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And I think that an individual
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would be able to
tell you their story,
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and by then they
would be able to,
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you know, to share
with you how it came about.
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Yeah, and I think with
that there's definitely,
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I love the idea of a combination
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because, you know,
you don't always...
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When I say come out of
the woman as a baby say,
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"Oh, this is it
there's something in you"
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that I think does
eventually, you know, come out.
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The thing though I think
the Word of God lets us know
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is that we're all born
in sin, shapen in iniquity.
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And one of the things that
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I know some people
are afraid of that,
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that I think that
the word clarifies
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is as we're born in
sin, shapen in iniquity
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we come into this world
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with a natural
bent to do those things
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that are not becoming to
Christ as opposed to what is.
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And I don't believe
that it is so absurd to think
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that being born in sin
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that takes on different
bent that they may have.
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So there are different things
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that I believe I
came into this world with,
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as a result of being born in sin
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that are different
than what you have,
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than what you
have, than what you have.
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They are fallen
under that category
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so for someone to say,
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you know what, I
was born with this bent.
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I can receive that.
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However what we've got to,
what we must also understand is
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when I'm born as a sinner
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that never takes
away my ability to choose.
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Well, I think the issue
that we have wrestled with is
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that when people
say, I'm born this way.
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I think the churches
response to that has been
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"No, you're not born this way"
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because in our
mind somehow we feel
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if I'm born homosexual,
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then somewhere God messed up.
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You know, like God
doesn't mess up in His creation.
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And so no one
is born homosexual.
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No one is born this way.
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But it's something
that you've been socialized,
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maybe you had an
experience in your younger years
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and you kind of
picked it up along the way.
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But this is not the
way God created you.
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And so we wrestle
with that as a church.
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Right and we know God
didn't mess up though.
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Adam and Eve messed up,
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and as a result of that as
Pastor Kelly just mentioned,
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we have now this bent towards
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doing things
that are not in line
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with God's will
and the way of God.
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And so like he
said this is not absurd.
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I mean, look bottom line
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is there're people that
are born from propensity
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to alcoholism
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and you better believe
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that the enemy is right there
to try to create circumstances
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and situations
knowing the grandparents,
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the great grandparents,
the great grandparents.
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He knows your genetic line.
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He's going to
create circumstances
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that are going to
cause you to try to fall
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into some of
those same patterns.
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And so it's not absurd to think
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that someone could have a
bent towards homosexuality.
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Yeah.
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Well, I think people get
concerned we're just saying
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that though is the
bent gives me the excuse.
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And that's why
people are afraid of.
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So that I think we
should remove that right now.
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So if I'm born this way,
then that means it's okay.
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It's okay.
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And we got to
remove that right now
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because I'm born a sinner.
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I'm born a sinner
doesn't make one a thief.
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Well, I guess to
what they're saying
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and what I've heard is that
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because, okay, I was born
black as an African-American.
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I was born black.
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Now we know that we
came out of a movement
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the civil rights era
where people actually said,
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"If you are black you
are less than," you know.
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And you're what
three face human?
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You don't have the same rights
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because of the
way that you are born.
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And so the
whole civil rights era
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was about me establishing
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my humanity in
the eyes of the world.
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Well, I think one thing
that would help our argument
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is to take
nature versus nurture.
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And take out the
verses and put in the end.
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We all have a bent
perverted, wicked nature.
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And I believe the goal
of the realm of darkness
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is to make sure that
once we come into the world
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that is nurtured.
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So a lot of times we ask,
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"Well, is it that
I was born this way
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or was it the
environment, was it my parents,
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was it my school or
my group of friends?"
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No, you were born
with a sinful nature.
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And it is now the enemy's job
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who knows your
gene pool by the way,
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who's been around for centuries.
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So he knows
about your granddaddy,
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your great grand, everything.
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He knows what's
coming down the pipe.
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Now it's his
goal to nurture that.
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Right. Okay. Okay.
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So, no, no, no.
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And I think one of the things
as I was reading this one book
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entitled
"Authentic Human Sexuality".
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The idea of that nature
versus nurture, I love that.
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We have maybe
this bent coming in.
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One of the things that they say
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is that boys start
to experience sexuality
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at a much
earlier age than girls,
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but at an age
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where they spend a lot
of time around other boys.
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So you see so at the time
when girls have got cooties
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that's when I'm starting
to develop my sexuality.
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And so it's not the excuse
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but it just ties
and I think to the idea
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that if I do have that bent
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and I'm having that nurture
experience around other guys
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or the other idea
of how it socialize,
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if I've had inappropriate
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or bad experiences
with the opposite sex,
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it just adds to it.
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So it's definitely a combination
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and the devil
knows how to create,
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I think a lot of times,
you know, that perfect storm.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Something that you just
mentioned that you talked about
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being born black, you
just kind of talk about,
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you know, just kind of comparing
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the civil rights movement.
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One of things that's important,
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it's not sinful to be black
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according to the Word of God
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but a homosexual lifestyle...
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It's not God's ideal.
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It's not God's ideal.
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So I think there's
a difference there.
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But all of us are sinners.
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And so the same
blood that covers lying,
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the same blood
that covers stealing
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is the same blood
that covers homosexuality.
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And so I think one of things as
a church that we have to do is
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not elevate
homosexuality to a level...
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That is worse
than anything else.
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Right, because it's all sin
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and we all need the
grace of Jesus Christ.
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So I guess the argument is that,
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you know, I'm born black
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and so how can the
way I'm born be a curse.
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Or how can the way
I'm born be sinful.
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And I guess on the
flip side I'll say,
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well, if I'm born with
this natural orientation
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as a man to like men,
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then how can that be wrong?
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But we all have an
orientation to something.
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Now, you may not be aware of it
but all of us have orientation.
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So let me throw
this question out there.
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What then is wrong
with homosexuality?
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Well, we've been
casting our gays back
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as we've gone
from program to program
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to what God's ideal was.
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We believe that
in Genesis 1 and 2,
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as the creation story unfolds
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that God shows
is where His ideal
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is for humanity, sexuality
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and their relationships
that God originally intended
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for a man and a woman to
come together in marriage,
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and then by that way
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they would be
fruitful and multiply.
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That procreation was a
part of God's original plan.
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And so when we
look at homosexuality,
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homosexuality
does a couple of things
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and departure
from the original plan.
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First off it has a relationship
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between two
people of the same gender
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which was not
God's original plan.
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And there's secondly,
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it eliminates the
possibility for procreation.
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It is not...
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It eliminates people
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from participating in
being fruitful and multiply
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as God originally intended.
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What we have to
be careful of though
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scripture
portrays different cultures
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as they come down to
the worst of the worst.
00:10:00.83\00:10:03.47
And homosexuality is usually
connected in those stories
00:10:03.50\00:10:07.64
with these cultures coming
to the worst of the worst.
00:10:07.67\00:10:11.34
And what we have to do
I think is to be sensitive
00:10:11.37\00:10:14.84
that individuals who subscribe
to this homosexual nature
00:10:14.88\00:10:19.01
are not necessarily given
over "to a reprobate mind"
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that these individuals
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are necessarily at
the end of their morality
00:10:23.75\00:10:26.12
but rather are struggling
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with a very real
part of who they are.
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I think that's what
ties into the idea with this,
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with why sometimes is
compared to the civil rights.
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And this is where I think
the way the church responds
00:10:36.87\00:10:39.87
and people
responds, they eliminate it
00:10:39.90\00:10:41.37
because of the
civil rights was about
00:10:41.40\00:10:43.74
not simply color of skin
00:10:43.77\00:10:45.37
but it's like I need equality...
00:10:45.41\00:10:48.18
Humanity.
00:10:48.21\00:10:49.54
I am still a human.
00:10:49.58\00:10:50.91
Now obviously I don't agree
00:10:50.95\00:10:52.31
with someone
looking a certain way
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that you treat them differently.
00:10:53.75\00:10:55.15
But the idea is
even though I'm different
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and let's say you did think
00:10:57.75\00:10:59.65
that the idea of me
being black was an issue.
00:10:59.69\00:11:03.43
I'm still a human being.
00:11:03.46\00:11:05.13
And so I'm
saying, I think the reason
00:11:05.16\00:11:07.00
that the homosexual lifestyle
00:11:07.03\00:11:09.50
can have that kind of connection
00:11:09.53\00:11:11.50
is because we sometimes,
00:11:11.53\00:11:13.30
when I say we I mean,
obviously we don't do that here.
00:11:13.34\00:11:15.74
We say okay, that's
not right lifestyle,
00:11:15.77\00:11:17.97
so we're going to
treat you differently.
00:11:18.01\00:11:20.01
And they'll say no, no, no.
00:11:20.04\00:11:22.11
We already, I think we
established it very clearly
00:11:22.14\00:11:23.88
that's not God's ideal,
00:11:23.91\00:11:25.25
but even if you're
not living God's ideal
00:11:25.28\00:11:26.98
you're still His child
00:11:27.02\00:11:28.35
and He still wants to save you.
00:11:28.38\00:11:29.72
And that's why it's so
important for our churches
00:11:29.75\00:11:33.72
to learn how to
appropriately respond
00:11:33.76\00:11:36.32
because all we
do is make martyrs.
00:11:36.36\00:11:38.76
So now the distraction
is off of the moral issue,
00:11:38.79\00:11:43.30
but now it's back
on the human issue
00:11:43.33\00:11:45.63
when that's really
not the core of the issue.
00:11:45.67\00:11:48.60
But because we have
treated them as less,
00:11:48.64\00:11:51.27
because they are dealing
with this specific proclivity
00:11:51.31\00:11:54.94
towards an
alternative lifestyle,
00:11:54.98\00:11:57.21
now they have that
argument to raise up,
00:11:57.25\00:11:59.85
"Wait, I'm still human."
00:11:59.88\00:12:01.28
Why aren't you loving me?
00:12:01.32\00:12:02.65
Why aren't you welcoming me?
00:12:02.68\00:12:04.02
Why is it their
ministry that is for me?
00:12:04.05\00:12:06.76
And that makes martyrs.
00:12:06.79\00:12:08.12
And I think the bullying thing
00:12:08.16\00:12:09.49
though is kind of
like the example right now
00:12:09.52\00:12:12.79
where you have in schools
00:12:12.83\00:12:14.16
where people that are
homosexuals are being bullied.
00:12:14.20\00:12:17.77
Just dealing
with the human element
00:12:17.80\00:12:19.73
that should not happen.
00:12:19.77\00:12:21.14
Even though we
don't want to agree
00:12:21.17\00:12:22.97
as far as from what God says
00:12:23.00\00:12:24.74
with the
lifestyle of homosexuality,
00:12:24.77\00:12:26.47
that gives no one the
right to bully someone
00:12:26.51\00:12:29.34
that may be
living that lifestyle.
00:12:29.38\00:12:31.51
So when we focus on that,
00:12:31.55\00:12:33.21
it distorts the real
issue which is a moral issue.
00:12:33.25\00:12:36.92
And I think there's a fine line
00:12:36.95\00:12:38.39
where we as a church
need to learn to walk better
00:12:38.42\00:12:41.16
that Jesus
obviously walked perfectly.
00:12:41.19\00:12:43.76
Love the sinner but
I can't stand the sin.
00:12:43.79\00:12:47.30
But I'm not going
to mix it through.
00:12:47.33\00:12:48.66
It's hard for us
to find that balance.
00:12:48.70\00:12:50.40
Because we think if I love
you, I'm accepting what you do.
00:12:50.43\00:12:53.67
Right. Yes.
00:12:53.70\00:12:55.04
And that's not the case.
00:12:55.07\00:12:57.34
We will lift up that,
"Hey, there's victory over this,
00:12:57.37\00:13:00.64
you know, there's something
00:13:00.68\00:13:02.01
that this is not
what God wants you to be.
00:13:02.04\00:13:03.41
And it's the same
thing with the person
00:13:03.45\00:13:04.78
who's heterosexual
00:13:04.81\00:13:06.15
but sleeping around everybody.
00:13:06.18\00:13:07.82
That's not what
you want you to be.
00:13:07.85\00:13:09.28
But however not but, however,
00:13:09.32\00:13:12.02
I'm still going to love
you the way that Christ would
00:13:12.05\00:13:14.56
because you need the blood
just like I need the blood.
00:13:14.59\00:13:17.16
And well, there's not going
to be the difference there.
00:13:17.19\00:13:18.66
So how do you
address that individual who,
00:13:18.69\00:13:21.16
you know, they
say, you know, Pastor,
00:13:21.20\00:13:23.87
when I was seven,
eight, nine years old,
00:13:23.90\00:13:25.63
I was molested
by uncle or an aunt
00:13:25.67\00:13:27.47
or someone in my family.
00:13:27.50\00:13:28.97
As a result that kind of put
me on a spiral out of control.
00:13:29.00\00:13:31.97
I've committed that,
00:13:32.01\00:13:33.34
you know, I've been part
of a homosexual lifestyle
00:13:33.38\00:13:35.64
and I feel like I've
done that abominable act,
00:13:35.68\00:13:39.28
will God accept me?
00:13:39.31\00:13:40.65
How can I come back from that?
00:13:40.68\00:13:42.28
Like where is the hope,
00:13:42.32\00:13:43.65
what do we say
to that individual?
00:13:43.69\00:13:45.02
The first step as a church
00:13:45.05\00:13:46.55
we need to do away with
the pyramid structure of sins,
00:13:46.59\00:13:50.79
so at the bottom
we have white lies,
00:13:50.83\00:13:54.53
maybe using profanity
00:13:54.56\00:13:56.93
and then on top we have
00:13:56.97\00:13:58.37
child molestation
and homosexuality.
00:13:58.40\00:14:01.47
So then that
member does feel like
00:14:01.50\00:14:03.44
I have committed
the abominable act.
00:14:03.47\00:14:06.27
I am up here on the top
00:14:06.31\00:14:08.38
where sins exist
that God cannot free
00:14:08.41\00:14:11.88
where His restoration
has no type of remedy,
00:14:11.91\00:14:16.42
or it cannot
medicate my problem.
00:14:16.45\00:14:19.52
Man, we have to
bring everything down
00:14:19.55\00:14:20.99
to the same level and
say, "No, all have sinned
00:14:21.02\00:14:23.76
and all have come
short of the glory of God.
00:14:23.79\00:14:26.36
But if I confess my sin,
00:14:26.39\00:14:28.63
He is faithful and
just to forgive my sins."
00:14:28.66\00:14:31.07
And I think the important
thing in understanding sin
00:14:31.10\00:14:33.50
is that God's issue was
sin is not the stuff we see.
00:14:33.54\00:14:36.97
It's what it does
00:14:37.01\00:14:38.34
to the
relationship between us and Him.
00:14:38.37\00:14:40.14
That's His
biggest issue with it.
00:14:40.18\00:14:41.54
So whether it is the lie
00:14:41.58\00:14:43.48
or this, His thing is
00:14:43.51\00:14:44.88
sin just gets in between
fellowship and relationship.
00:14:44.91\00:14:48.08
And I think the
pyramid structure
00:14:48.12\00:14:49.45
that we see
established in the church
00:14:49.48\00:14:52.59
is because the
church almost deals with sin
00:14:52.62\00:14:55.32
based off consequences.
00:14:55.36\00:14:58.59
And so if you tell a white lie
00:14:58.63\00:15:00.66
compared to if you
are a child molester,
00:15:00.70\00:15:02.96
there is much more
significant consequences
00:15:03.00\00:15:05.43
for being a child molester.
00:15:05.47\00:15:06.80
You go to jail,
destroy your family.
00:15:06.84\00:15:09.10
As a whole if you tell white lie
00:15:09.14\00:15:10.71
well, you can rebound
from that pretty quickly.
00:15:10.74\00:15:12.81
And so we judge it
based of off consequences...
00:15:12.84\00:15:14.94
Will they put him
on the cross? Right.
00:15:14.98\00:15:16.31
But at the end of the day
00:15:16.34\00:15:17.68
when you tell white lie
00:15:17.71\00:15:19.05
or whether
you're a child molester
00:15:19.08\00:15:20.42
is just as detrimental
to your walk with God.
00:15:20.45\00:15:22.22
It's just as detrimental
to your eternal salvation.
00:15:22.25\00:15:24.59
So I like what you're saying,
00:15:24.62\00:15:25.95
how can we level
the playing field
00:15:25.99\00:15:27.32
and put them all
on the same level.
00:15:27.36\00:15:28.69
And now that they're
on the same playing field,
00:15:28.72\00:15:30.33
how then do we address it?
00:15:30.36\00:15:31.79
The same way that we
would address every sin,
00:15:31.83\00:15:34.56
point to Christ.
00:15:34.60\00:15:35.93
Well, but I think that
within the church context though
00:15:35.96\00:15:38.50
and this is where we have to
be sensitive within the church.
00:15:38.53\00:15:41.94
You know, there's a history of,
00:15:41.97\00:15:43.77
you know, just really
being insensitive to people
00:15:43.81\00:15:47.58
really dealing with
the issue of homosexuality
00:15:47.61\00:15:50.15
the way that we preach,
00:15:50.18\00:15:51.81
the way that we talk
is just very insensitive.
00:15:51.85\00:15:54.98
And so it doesn't
create an environment
00:15:55.02\00:15:56.85
where someone that's
struggling with homosexuality
00:15:56.89\00:16:00.82
can really feel safe
00:16:00.86\00:16:03.09
to know that Jesus
can help you and...
00:16:03.12\00:16:05.06
Redemption.
00:16:05.09\00:16:06.43
In a community where people
00:16:06.46\00:16:08.83
while we love you
and we hate the sin
00:16:08.86\00:16:11.53
are here to help you go through
this very difficult thing.
00:16:11.57\00:16:14.84
And that needs
to be with any sin.
00:16:14.87\00:16:16.71
What I mean but especially,
00:16:16.74\00:16:18.07
you know, we just
have to be more sensitive
00:16:18.11\00:16:19.64
within the body of Christ.
00:16:19.67\00:16:21.01
You know, Lola, you
were telling something,
00:16:21.04\00:16:22.38
you know, off air in the back
00:16:22.41\00:16:24.21
about a situation with somebody,
00:16:24.25\00:16:26.45
you know, who is
struggling with that
00:16:26.48\00:16:28.02
and I think that's real
powerful for this situation.
00:16:28.05\00:16:30.59
Absolutely, I was
speaking to a person
00:16:30.62\00:16:32.52
who has a
profession of counseling.
00:16:32.55\00:16:34.66
And one of their, a person who
they were in relationship with
00:16:34.69\00:16:40.26
actually came to them
00:16:40.30\00:16:41.63
and happened to be
living a homosexual lifestyle.
00:16:41.66\00:16:45.10
That wasn't the reason
why they had a conversation
00:16:45.13\00:16:47.27
or why they
were in relationship.
00:16:47.30\00:16:49.10
But this was a part of
this other individual's life.
00:16:49.14\00:16:51.77
In the course of time as
they related to one another
00:16:51.81\00:16:54.74
and talked
about some real issues
00:16:54.78\00:16:56.98
and opened up to one another.
00:16:57.01\00:16:59.15
The person living a
homosexual lifestyle
00:16:59.18\00:17:01.68
actually asked this individual,
00:17:01.72\00:17:04.69
"You know, what do you
think about my lifestyle,
00:17:04.72\00:17:06.65
is this something that
you think I need to change?"
00:17:06.69\00:17:10.09
I'm realizing that the
need that individuals are having
00:17:10.13\00:17:14.93
who were struggling
with any type of sin
00:17:14.96\00:17:17.20
is love and acceptance.
00:17:17.23\00:17:19.27
Not acceptance of their sin
but acceptance of the person.
00:17:19.30\00:17:22.94
And once an
individual feel safe and loved,
00:17:22.97\00:17:26.11
then they will be open to hear
00:17:26.14\00:17:28.01
whatever it is that
we have to say about
00:17:28.04\00:17:30.51
what God says
about our lifestyles.
00:17:30.55\00:17:32.01
You know, I like that.
00:17:32.05\00:17:33.75
The best
illustration I've ever heard
00:17:33.78\00:17:35.15
when it comes to how the church
should relate to individuals
00:17:35.18\00:17:38.45
who may be homosexual
00:17:38.49\00:17:39.82
but anyone who is
struggling with any sin
00:17:39.85\00:17:41.42
as we all struggle,
00:17:41.46\00:17:42.79
and we have
different issues in our lives
00:17:42.82\00:17:44.39
is that God judges,
the Holy Spirit convicts
00:17:44.43\00:17:49.20
and the church loves.
00:17:49.23\00:17:51.13
Like that
should be our approach,
00:17:51.17\00:17:52.53
God judges, Holy Spirit convicts
00:17:52.57\00:17:54.50
and the church loves.
00:17:54.54\00:17:55.90
What's our responsibility?
00:17:55.94\00:17:57.27
It's to love.
00:17:57.31\00:17:58.64
Now love like
you said is not well,
00:17:58.67\00:18:00.28
and let me accept this thing
00:18:00.31\00:18:02.78
and doesn't
matter what you're doing.
00:18:02.81\00:18:04.15
No, love is yes, I accept you.
00:18:04.18\00:18:06.75
I want to help you,
I want to pray for you,
00:18:06.78\00:18:08.35
I want to challenge you.
00:18:08.38\00:18:09.72
You know, we need
that kind of ability.
00:18:09.75\00:18:11.09
Love is a kind of ability.
00:18:11.12\00:18:12.75
You know, so that if you
know I'm struggling today.
00:18:12.79\00:18:15.49
Well, listen, let me make
sure that you don't go deviate.
00:18:15.52\00:18:17.59
Let me make sure you
stay on the right path.
00:18:17.63\00:18:18.99
But there's a word that
just has to be in our churches,
00:18:19.03\00:18:22.83
in our minds and in our lives
00:18:22.86\00:18:24.20
and that's the
idea of being saved.
00:18:24.23\00:18:25.60
One thing I love about
Christ that He was safe.
00:18:25.63\00:18:28.27
He was safe to come
through in an approach
00:18:28.30\00:18:29.97
and I know one of
the things in my church
00:18:30.01\00:18:32.17
I did some very
specific talks on homosexuality
00:18:32.21\00:18:36.08
and it created,
00:18:36.11\00:18:38.25
you know, in that
timeframe a safe environment
00:18:38.28\00:18:41.38
where people can say, "Okay,
we're going to talk about it,
00:18:41.42\00:18:44.19
we're educated about it."
00:18:44.22\00:18:45.62
So now if I come out
with this or you see me with,
00:18:45.65\00:18:48.72
you're
struggling with something,
00:18:48.76\00:18:50.39
I know it's not going
to be ashamed and all that.
00:18:50.43\00:18:53.50
I'm not expecting
00:18:53.53\00:18:55.16
because there is
a group that says
00:18:55.20\00:18:56.53
you need to
accept me the way I am.
00:18:56.56\00:18:57.90
I'm saying just
like I wouldn't accept
00:18:57.93\00:18:59.43
someone's
always lying to my face
00:18:59.47\00:19:01.44
and say, "Oh, that's fine,
keep lying" don't accept that,
00:19:01.47\00:19:03.47
but there has to
be a safe environment
00:19:03.51\00:19:05.07
where people
because let me tell you,
00:19:05.11\00:19:06.84
there are young people
00:19:06.88\00:19:08.21
I know who are
even watching right now,
00:19:08.24\00:19:09.94
who are in our churches,
00:19:09.98\00:19:11.41
who are being
bombarded with it on T.V.
00:19:11.45\00:19:13.72
saying that, "It's okay."
00:19:13.75\00:19:15.25
They're struggling with it
00:19:15.28\00:19:16.62
and what happens is
00:19:16.65\00:19:17.99
when they don't find
that love and acceptance
00:19:18.02\00:19:20.92
amongst the church, it
is not safe in the church.
00:19:20.96\00:19:23.83
Oh, there's a very safe
environment in other places.
00:19:23.86\00:19:26.36
And that safe environment
00:19:26.39\00:19:27.73
unfortunately, usually
is feeding that lifestyle.
00:19:27.76\00:19:31.87
And let me tell you,
00:19:31.90\00:19:33.23
the goal of a lot of
people is to feel safe.
00:19:33.27\00:19:35.04
And one of the
measurements of safety
00:19:35.07\00:19:37.24
is one feels listened to.
00:19:37.27\00:19:40.08
So we look at
James 5 where it says,
00:19:40.11\00:19:42.81
"Confess your
faults one to another,
00:19:42.84\00:19:44.78
and you will be healed."
00:19:44.81\00:19:46.25
What James is saying is that
00:19:46.28\00:19:47.62
the early Christian
church was so together
00:19:47.65\00:19:49.92
and had created
such a safe environment
00:19:49.95\00:19:52.05
that I had
accountability partners
00:19:52.09\00:19:54.89
in my church family
00:19:54.92\00:19:56.79
where I can tell them
what I'm struggling with.
00:19:56.83\00:19:59.06
Currently the homosexual
demographic in our churches
00:19:59.09\00:20:03.26
does not feel as if
we're here to listen to them.
00:20:03.30\00:20:06.47
And therefore
according to James,
00:20:06.50\00:20:08.10
I think they are missing
out on some of the healing power
00:20:08.14\00:20:11.61
of being able to
talk about the issue.
00:20:11.64\00:20:13.91
That's
powerful. That's powerful.
00:20:13.94\00:20:15.41
So we have
someone who's struggling.
00:20:15.44\00:20:17.05
We recognize the role
that a church should play
00:20:17.08\00:20:19.01
in demonstrating love,
00:20:19.05\00:20:20.38
but what are the tools
can we give that individual
00:20:20.42\00:20:22.38
who says listen,
you know, Pastor,
00:20:22.42\00:20:24.55
I'm in a homosexual lifestyle,
00:20:24.59\00:20:25.92
I don't want to
be in this lifestyle,
00:20:25.95\00:20:27.62
I want victory over this thing
00:20:27.66\00:20:29.79
but I'm just bound.
00:20:29.82\00:20:31.23
What do I do?
00:20:31.26\00:20:32.59
What do I need? Help me.
00:20:32.63\00:20:33.96
What do we say to that person?
00:20:34.00\00:20:35.63
You know, I think the first step
00:20:35.66\00:20:37.17
with anything usually
that homosexual lifestyle
00:20:37.20\00:20:41.47
because of we talked about
me having a safe environment
00:20:41.50\00:20:43.44
is usually a secret
00:20:43.47\00:20:44.81
except the people
I'm engaging with,
00:20:44.84\00:20:46.64
you've got to find
someone outside of that circle
00:20:46.68\00:20:49.44
and you've got to share.
00:20:49.48\00:20:51.31
And that doesn't
have to be a pastor
00:20:51.35\00:20:53.42
but just somebody who you know.
00:20:53.45\00:20:55.45
And who you say I can get them.
00:20:55.48\00:20:57.49
Someone who is spiritual.
00:20:57.52\00:20:58.85
Yeah, who I can get out.
00:20:58.89\00:21:01.06
I need to be
able to get that out.
00:21:01.09\00:21:02.96
You've got to because
the devil loves secrecy.
00:21:02.99\00:21:05.56
The moment it's out in the open
00:21:05.59\00:21:07.56
that's when I think
God to do something.
00:21:07.60\00:21:09.16
Yeah, He had to do
something with that.
00:21:09.20\00:21:10.53
Right, right, right.
00:21:10.57\00:21:11.90
So I tell somebody.
00:21:11.93\00:21:13.27
I tell my
brother, I tell the pastor,
00:21:13.30\00:21:14.64
I tell one of the elders
00:21:14.67\00:21:16.00
who have a good
relationship with in the church.
00:21:16.04\00:21:17.94
I tell... Spiritually minded.
00:21:17.97\00:21:19.57
Yes, spiritual
people, I tell someone...
00:21:19.61\00:21:21.44
Just keep
emphasizing that. Yeah.
00:21:21.48\00:21:22.81
Don't just blur it to anybody...
00:21:22.84\00:21:24.18
Yeah, don't just tell anybody.
00:21:24.21\00:21:25.55
You want to be
very clear with others.
00:21:25.58\00:21:26.92
So don't tell anybody
00:21:26.95\00:21:28.28
but you go to someone
00:21:28.32\00:21:29.65
that you really
feel knows the Lord,
00:21:29.68\00:21:31.02
a prayer warrior, someone
that you can connect with.
00:21:31.05\00:21:32.79
So I tell them then what?
00:21:32.82\00:21:34.16
What do I do?
What's the next step?
00:21:34.19\00:21:35.52
It was said in
our previous program.
00:21:35.56\00:21:38.13
And I think I
want to reiterate now
00:21:38.16\00:21:39.83
because it's very powerful
00:21:39.86\00:21:41.20
that you also have to enlist
the support of professionals.
00:21:41.23\00:21:45.63
A professional counselor
or someone who's well versed
00:21:45.67\00:21:49.04
and that type of mindset.
00:21:49.07\00:21:51.61
If you're trying to get out,
00:21:51.64\00:21:52.97
understand that the
enemy is going to do
00:21:53.01\00:21:54.54
all that he can to keep you in.
00:21:54.58\00:21:57.18
And so you have to get
00:21:57.21\00:21:58.55
as much reinforcement
as you can to get out.
00:21:58.58\00:22:01.18
So along with
spiritually minded people
00:22:01.22\00:22:03.12
who are praying you up
00:22:03.15\00:22:04.49
and who are surrounding you,
00:22:04.52\00:22:05.85
you also need some
professional help who's,
00:22:05.89\00:22:07.82
individuals who
gonna help you work through
00:22:07.86\00:22:11.46
all of the things
that you're going to face
00:22:11.49\00:22:13.70
as you try to
exit that lifestyle.
00:22:13.73\00:22:15.10
So I mean, what
I hear you saying
00:22:15.13\00:22:16.46
mean for that
person who's 17, 18, 19
00:22:16.50\00:22:18.77
and they're struggling.
00:22:18.80\00:22:20.14
Even 21 however, old you are
00:22:20.17\00:22:22.24
that they need to seek
some type of professional help.
00:22:22.27\00:22:24.71
They need to
seek some type of...
00:22:24.74\00:22:26.34
We talked about it in
one of the other programs
00:22:26.37\00:22:28.18
about
understanding the triggers,
00:22:28.21\00:22:29.98
you know, why do I do what I do?
00:22:30.01\00:22:32.11
Where is this coming from?
00:22:32.15\00:22:33.48
Why do I have this affinity
00:22:33.52\00:22:34.85
towards someone of the same sex?
00:22:34.88\00:22:36.22
Why do I have flow like this?
00:22:36.25\00:22:37.59
So I need to help, I
need to understand that.
00:22:37.62\00:22:39.35
I want to clarify though
00:22:39.39\00:22:40.72
because I don't want someone
to get the impression that,
00:22:40.76\00:22:43.09
oh, because I, you
know, I have a let's say
00:22:43.12\00:22:47.03
homosexual lifestyle,
00:22:47.06\00:22:48.40
all of a sudden I need
to go see someone cares.
00:22:48.43\00:22:50.83
I will even go I
would tell somebody
00:22:50.87\00:22:53.03
who is extremely promiscuous
with the opposite sex.
00:22:53.07\00:22:57.14
See that sexual part of it
00:22:57.17\00:23:00.38
is what I think the
outside help does become is,
00:23:00.41\00:23:04.01
I don't, I guess I
don't want the person to be,
00:23:04.05\00:23:06.01
"Oh well, so
somebody who's going around
00:23:06.05\00:23:07.75
sleeping with a bunch of girls
00:23:07.78\00:23:09.18
Dear God, they need the help".
00:23:09.22\00:23:10.55
They can just
pray that thing away.
00:23:10.59\00:23:12.05
No, you might
leave that as well too.
00:23:12.09\00:23:15.29
Yeah, and you know somebody
00:23:15.32\00:23:16.76
but it can't just
be anybody I think,
00:23:16.79\00:23:18.46
you know, a Christian counselor
who has that same principle
00:23:18.49\00:23:21.70
because we're
operating under the premise
00:23:21.73\00:23:23.60
that I'm not in the ideal
00:23:23.63\00:23:25.57
and I want to get back
to God's original plan,
00:23:25.60\00:23:29.64
not just for my
behavior but my thoughts.
00:23:29.67\00:23:32.27
Not just for my
thoughts but my actions
00:23:32.31\00:23:34.44
for in my holistic way of life.
00:23:34.48\00:23:35.81
And I also believe that
the individual struggling
00:23:35.84\00:23:37.81
has to accept that
my sin is not special.
00:23:37.85\00:23:41.65
Although
everything in my environment
00:23:41.68\00:23:43.82
is trying to convince me
00:23:43.85\00:23:45.65
that this issue is special.
00:23:45.69\00:23:49.82
It's different
than all the other sins.
00:23:49.86\00:23:51.93
No, the stuff that the
pastor is talking about
00:23:51.96\00:23:54.00
to the alcoholic
00:23:54.03\00:23:55.36
or the one who is having
substance abuse problems.
00:23:55.40\00:23:58.53
That stuff is not
going to work for my issue
00:23:58.57\00:24:00.24
because my sin is special.
00:24:00.27\00:24:01.97
No, you have to come to
the point where you accept,
00:24:02.00\00:24:04.21
no, my sin is just a sin.
00:24:04.24\00:24:06.24
So the same thing
that Christ prescribes
00:24:06.27\00:24:09.14
for the person
dealing with adultery
00:24:09.18\00:24:11.28
is the same thing He
will prescribe for you.
00:24:11.31\00:24:14.28
And if I can jump in real quick
00:24:14.32\00:24:15.88
because I know
within our culture
00:24:15.92\00:24:18.75
there's a stigma that comes
with seeking professional help
00:24:18.79\00:24:21.49
or seeking counseling.
00:24:21.52\00:24:22.96
And what we're saying here
00:24:22.99\00:24:24.46
is that a counselor
will have some tools
00:24:24.49\00:24:27.40
that the average
church member won't have.
00:24:27.43\00:24:30.07
And we're in
need of those tools.
00:24:30.10\00:24:32.53
The professional has the tools,
they know how to utilize them
00:24:32.57\00:24:35.57
and that's why we
go to the professional.
00:24:35.60\00:24:37.17
Not because we're crazy
as Pastor Kelly said before.
00:24:37.21\00:24:40.68
Not because, you know,
there's something wrong with us,
00:24:40.71\00:24:43.28
but because we need the tools,
00:24:43.31\00:24:45.61
and the professional
can provide the tools
00:24:45.65\00:24:47.72
to give us the
deliverance that we need.
00:24:47.75\00:24:49.48
In addition to that,
00:24:49.52\00:24:51.12
what role does my walk with
the Lord play in this thing?
00:24:51.15\00:24:54.36
You know, can I
just pray it away?
00:24:54.39\00:24:57.03
You know, can I just, you know,
fast and labor over this thing,
00:24:57.06\00:25:00.10
and, you know,
somehow, you know, how...
00:25:00.13\00:25:03.40
I don't know if
that's a straight yes or no.
00:25:03.43\00:25:06.77
I mean, some people
that's how it's able to...
00:25:06.80\00:25:10.77
It might be able
to manifest itself
00:25:10.81\00:25:12.24
depending on lets
say maybe how early
00:25:12.27\00:25:13.64
and different ways you catch it.
00:25:13.68\00:25:15.01
We've got to understand though
00:25:15.04\00:25:16.38
that sometimes sin
00:25:16.41\00:25:17.91
and this is where the
earthly consequences come in.
00:25:17.95\00:25:20.15
And with them so slick
00:25:20.18\00:25:21.52
I mean, I hate to
give him props with this.
00:25:21.55\00:25:23.72
But he's gotten to the point now
00:25:23.75\00:25:25.09
where sin now affects you
00:25:25.12\00:25:26.69
biologically and physically
00:25:26.72\00:25:29.42
where God says, your
prayers gain and God does that.
00:25:29.46\00:25:32.83
He says but the prayer
sometimes might lead you
00:25:32.86\00:25:34.90
to have to do certain other
things, other things with...
00:25:34.93\00:25:38.03
I don't want to let anyone think
00:25:38.07\00:25:40.20
that prayer isn't important,
00:25:40.24\00:25:41.57
to walk with
God isn't important,
00:25:41.60\00:25:43.24
that will do it.
00:25:43.27\00:25:44.61
And when you're connected
00:25:44.64\00:25:46.54
I think He'll tell
you, "You know what?
00:25:46.57\00:25:47.91
Let's go in this
direction to fix that."
00:25:47.94\00:25:50.48
Or God might say,
"You know, stay right here.
00:25:50.51\00:25:52.35
Because I'm about to do
something real in your life,
00:25:52.38\00:25:53.78
stay right here."
00:25:53.82\00:25:55.15
You know, we have some
deep rooted stuff in our lives.
00:25:55.18\00:25:58.22
You know, and so we don't want
00:25:58.25\00:25:59.59
to just give a
surface treatment,
00:25:59.62\00:26:01.26
that's why here
you guys are saying,
00:26:01.29\00:26:02.62
we don't want to
give a surface treatment.
00:26:02.66\00:26:04.19
You know, and think
that we can just kind of
00:26:04.23\00:26:05.76
make up our minds
to change and change.
00:26:05.79\00:26:07.13
No, a lot of this stuff
it stems very, very deep
00:26:07.16\00:26:09.33
into our past baggage,
00:26:09.36\00:26:12.10
our genealogies, our
parents, just our DNA.
00:26:12.13\00:26:15.10
I called it DNA deep sin.
00:26:15.14\00:26:17.21
So that was passed down to us
00:26:17.24\00:26:18.57
from one generation to the next.
00:26:18.61\00:26:19.94
And Pastor Seth, I think
00:26:19.97\00:26:21.31
that when we start
discussing homosexuality.
00:26:21.34\00:26:23.88
And we start almost couching it
00:26:23.91\00:26:26.92
as if it's the super sin.
00:26:26.95\00:26:29.22
And we start
dealing with it as if
00:26:29.25\00:26:30.85
"Man, it's going to be
hard to overcome this."
00:26:30.89\00:26:32.95
That's when we
really start seeing
00:26:32.99\00:26:34.99
how hard it will be
to overcome our stuff.
00:26:35.02\00:26:38.06
That's when the power of
sin really starts to surface
00:26:38.09\00:26:41.90
and we start to see
how helpless we are.
00:26:41.93\00:26:44.27
And we need to stop
applying our helplessness
00:26:44.30\00:26:47.20
only to the tier of super sins
00:26:47.24\00:26:49.94
but to all sin.
00:26:49.97\00:26:51.74
This is a problem.
Yeah, and I'll agree.
00:26:51.77\00:26:53.38
That's why I would say that
no matter what the struggle is
00:26:53.41\00:26:56.24
homosexuality,
you know, immorality
00:26:56.28\00:26:59.15
if you're sleeping
with, you know, 100 women
00:26:59.18\00:27:00.78
or whatever issue is
00:27:00.82\00:27:02.15
that number one I
think accountability is good
00:27:02.18\00:27:04.95
and counseling is good,
00:27:04.99\00:27:06.92
but your walk with the Lord.
00:27:06.96\00:27:08.66
I mean, when you bathe
yourself in the Word of God.
00:27:08.69\00:27:10.89
When you bathe
yourself in prayer,
00:27:10.93\00:27:12.43
that plays a significant
role in the victory process.
00:27:12.46\00:27:16.43
Right, but it's
also remembering in that
00:27:16.46\00:27:18.70
because the reason
why you're doing that
00:27:18.73\00:27:20.70
is because it's
going to be a struggle.
00:27:20.74\00:27:23.34
And I think Pastor Moore talked
about is going to be a battle.
00:27:23.37\00:27:26.78
And, you know, it's going
to be constantly something
00:27:26.81\00:27:30.25
where you're going to
need the strength of God.
00:27:30.28\00:27:33.15
Where there's
going to be a tension
00:27:33.18\00:27:34.72
where you could
easily fall back into.
00:27:34.75\00:27:37.02
And, you know, I
think there's sometimes,
00:27:37.05\00:27:38.85
you know, God still
delivers in different ways.
00:27:38.89\00:27:40.96
Some people they're
delivered completely,
00:27:40.99\00:27:43.46
they don't have any
inkling towards it anymore.
00:27:43.49\00:27:46.59
But like others some may
have the thorn in the flesh
00:27:46.63\00:27:48.90
where you just
are constantly aware,
00:27:48.93\00:27:51.57
all of us are
always in need of Christ.
00:27:51.60\00:27:54.14
But it's just, there is
that there is ever before you.
00:27:54.17\00:27:57.71
And so there's that struggle,
there's a lot of struggle.
00:27:57.74\00:27:59.91
You know, this thing is, I
mean I wish we had more time,
00:27:59.94\00:28:04.38
there's no way that we can just
00:28:04.41\00:28:05.75
really tackled this entire topic
00:28:05.78\00:28:07.12
in a 30 minute segment.
00:28:07.15\00:28:08.95
You know, that's why we
started our Facebook page
00:28:08.98\00:28:11.25
at purechoicesfacebook./
purechoices,
00:28:11.29\00:28:13.72
where you can look us up.
00:28:13.76\00:28:15.39
You can ask us
question, you can inbox us.
00:28:15.42\00:28:18.49
If you need some assistance,
00:28:18.53\00:28:19.86
we'll be more than
willing to help you
00:28:19.89\00:28:21.43
find individuals in
your community that can help,
00:28:21.46\00:28:23.50
you know, allow you get victory
over whatever your struggle is.
00:28:23.53\00:28:26.53
Unfortunately,
we're out of time today.
00:28:26.57\00:28:27.94
I want to thank
you for joining us.
00:28:27.97\00:28:29.30
I look forward to do it again
00:28:29.34\00:28:31.24
next week, same
time, same place.
00:28:31.27\00:28:33.14
We look forward
to seeing you there.
00:28:33.17\00:28:34.51