Welcome back to "Pure Choices."
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I'm so glad that
you decided to join us
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again for another episode.
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Today we have a very hot topic
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that we're
gonna dive right into.
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But before we do that, I
just want to take a minute
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and introduce
again my colleagues
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who're here to just discuss
these sensitive and hot issues.
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Right here we have my brother
Alfonzo Greene, who's a pastor,
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one of the pastors
at the first SDA Church
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in Huntsville, Alabama.
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We have my
brother Michael Polite,
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who is the associate pastor
at the Riverside SDA Church
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in Nashville, Tennessee.
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We have my sister
Lola Moore, who is with us.
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She is one of the pastors
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from the Huntsville
Oakwood University Church.
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And then we have my
brother Michael B. Kelley
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who pastors in
Riverside, California.,
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the Mt. Rubidoux SDA Church.
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I'm so glad that you
all back here with me again.
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And today our topic is
one that is, kind of, taboo
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within the
Adventist Church specifically,
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and maybe just in any church.
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We're dealing
specifically with self pleasure,
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masturbation, pornography.
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Now even saying the word
masturbation is kind of like,
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should I be saying that,
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you know, it's kind of
like one of those tough,
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tough topics that we
don't really deal with.
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But I'm gonna say it again
just we'll are comfortable.
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Masturbation. Right.
Right. Thank you. Thank you.
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Yeah, this is what
we're dealing with today.
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And so let's just talk about it.
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What is it? Is it right?
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Is it wrong? How
do we deal with it?
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How does the church approach it?
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What does God's
word say about it?
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You know, let's
just throw it out there
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and just wrestle with it.
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Well, you know,
one of things that,
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you know, I'm glad that
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we're talking
about, this is appropriate.
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There was somebody I had
to deal with it at a time,
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who has coming to
me for some counseling,
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two different situations.
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One situation
was they were trying
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to remain pure in their minds
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and pure for them
was not having sex.
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But when they would go and
be with their significant other
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they found themselves
very tempted to do that.
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So one of the things that
they turned to was they said,
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if I would masturbate
sometime before that would,
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it will make lot easier--
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Calm, calm him down. Right.
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Don't have to, you know, resist.
So that was one scenario.
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Then there was
somebody else who--
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their spouse had passed away
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and what happens is obviously,
even though the spouse is gone,
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they didn't feel the
need to get remarried.
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However, those
urges were still there.
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And so what they
want to say is pastor,
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is it inappropriate
that as I'm thinking
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about my spouse in
the intimate moments
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that we used to
share and I do that,
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is that inappropriate?
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So it is--because the
people are really confused,
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I think, as to, you know,
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is it wrong
just black and white?
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Is there certain context,
you know, that's where--
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And just for those
who-- just we're all clear,
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masturbation is, Pastor Greene,
give us a good definition.
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What do you say masturbation is?
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I mean, just kind of what
the show is, self-pleasure.
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I mean, it's just, you know,
pleasing yourself sexually.
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I don't know what
else you would-- Okay.
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I mean, I know you don't want,
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like, some slang
here but, I mean.
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I mean that thing
is pretty much there,
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I mean, pleasing
yourself sexually.
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So the question is, is it right?
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And you gave us a
few good contexts,
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one where there's two people
who are dating and they want
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to kind of remain pure,
they don't want to have sex
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with each other
'cause they're dating.
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But yet they
still have this urge
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so one would masturbate,
that was first. Right, right.
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And the other context
was a woman who's widowed,
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her husband has passed away
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and she masturbates
to the thoughts of him.
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She's doesn't
want to get remarried
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but she just thinks about
the good times they had together
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and then she'll
go on to masturbate.
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In those contexts is it right,
is it wrong? Let's deal with it.
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What are your thoughts?
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Well, I'm really feeling
like we need to breakdown
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those two situations to
their bare elements. Okay.
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And that is that self
pleasure is a counterfeit.
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It's counterfeiting
the real experience.
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So what we're really asking is,
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is it ever okay
to use a counterfeit
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to keep from further sin?
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Now why is it a counterfeit?
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The counterfeit is
what God made for orgasm
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and getting that
release is the sexual experience
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between male and
female, that's what He made.
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So a counterfeit of
that is-- In the context--
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Okay, I can get a
release when I please myself.
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So is it ever cool to use
that self pleasure counterfeit--
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Self stimulation. That's it.
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To--to get away from other sins.
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Like for an
occasion with someone else
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or adultery or
things of that nature.
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I mean, the question that I know
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lot of young people have
is, what's wrong with it?
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I mean, I'm not hurting anyone.
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You know, I may be
looking at pornography
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but I may not be looking
pornography when I masturbate.
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It might just be
some mental images
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I have in my mind,
what's the big deal?
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It's not like I'm
belittling a woman per se.
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I'm just, you know, I'm
in my closet, I'm in my bed,
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I'm in my shower, and I'm doing
whatever I wouldn't actually do
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and I'm not-- it has
no effect on anyone else.
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So what's the big
deal with masturbating?
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I think the big issue for us
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or the way that we ought
to formulate our thoughts
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as Christians is by
looking at what God intended.
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When we talk
about what God intended,
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we understand that
all of this conversation
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about self
pleasure is a neighbor
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to actual sexual intercourse.
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That's what you were saying.
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And what God
designed for human beings,
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He gave us a desire
for sexual intercourse
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in order for us to be
fruitful and to multiply.
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But not only that, in
order to foster and forge
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a deep relationship between
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two individuals who are married.
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And so you ask
yourself in that context
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or understanding what God
intended for sexuality now.
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When I engage and what
we're calling self pleasure,
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what I am saying is, I
am going to do by myself,
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for myself, what
God intended for me
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to share with someone else.
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What God intended for me to do
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in order to bind me
with another person,
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now I'm doing it for myself.
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It doesn't seem harmful.
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When you're
single, when you're young
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and things like that,
and not seemingly hurting
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anyone else but then
when we come to a place
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where you're supposed to be
binding with another person,
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when you're supposed
to be in a relationship
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where you share
this with another,
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now you're handicapping yourself
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because I'm used
to do this by myself.
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If this other
person cannot do for me
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what I like, what
brings me pleasure.
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Now I am-- what shall I say,
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now I am tempted
in a whole new way
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because I want to go and
have an affair with myself.
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Well, I don't know
if people really think
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along those lines, though.
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I mean, if I'm masturbating,
as in what Pastor Kelley said,
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if I'm
masturbating because I know
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I don't want to have
sex with my girlfriend
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because either it's
wrong, she may get pregnant.
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You know, it's not God's
ideal and so I masturbate.
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I'm just kind of like holding
myself over until I get married,
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until it is legitimate for me
to have sex with my girlfriend.
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And then once I get married
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I won't be masturbating anymore.
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You know, that goes
back to a previous discussion
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that we had in the last episode.
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And that is that
what is the goal?
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Is the goal just not
engaging in the activity
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or is the goal purity? Right.
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And when we think
about masturbation,
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what are the
things that we have to--
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what are the types of
thinking do we have to,
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you know, be engaged in to
excite ourselves to the point
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where we actually do have
to masturbate and release.
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So is the goal just
not having intercourse?
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Or is the goal to be pure?
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In your thinking
and your actions.
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So where does it--
where do we draw the line?
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Okay, you can imagine
an adolescent young man.
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In fact, this is a
real life scenario.
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Someone came to me
one day and they said,
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"Pastor, I don't know
what to do about my child.
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I have like a six
or seven year old boy
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and he's feeling himself.
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You know, he discovered
that he has a penis--"
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I think they're
about six or seven,
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they might be
little bit younger.
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"He discovered
that he has a penis
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and he just won't
stop touching it."
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In her mind, she's like,
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"Yo, stop touching
it, stop touching it."
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But in his mind, it's discovery.
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You know, he's just realizing
I have this thing down here
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and when I touch
it, it feels good.
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Is that considered masturbating?
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Like where do you
draw the line between--
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and specially in
adolescence, between discovery
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and the other side of the coin?
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Well, I think
there's diff--I mean,
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I think you could tell
clearly when it's discovery.
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You know, doing
different things,
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you know, what they should,
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they do not need
stimuli as it were. Right.
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You know, usually, you know,
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young boys at that age
don't necessarily need stimuli,
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something that they're
looking at, to get that.
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It's just, you know, part of it.
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But going on to what,
you know, Pastor Greene said,
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which is why I want to explore
that from a different angle.
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The idea that the person--
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the goal is
purity, absolutely it is.
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So that person might
have to do something impure
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to in their minds
remain pure from sex.
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Right. That's one thing.
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However, when you
put in the context
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where the thought is acceptable,
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and I go back to this
scenario with the spouse
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where that situation
of me thinking like--
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if I were to
think right now. Right.
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Just think,
because before I act.
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Because remember,
we're talking about
00:09:39.90\00:09:41.27
being pure even in thoughts too.
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If I think about a
scenario with my wife
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right now, that's acceptable.
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So the question, I
think, also turns into is well,
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if I think about
something that is acceptable
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and then perform this act,
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is the act make the
thought unacceptable?
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Or even if it's
in the right context,
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it's just never okay for me
to touch myself in that way.
00:10:01.20\00:10:05.30
So if I'm away
and my wife is at home
00:10:05.33\00:10:07.16
and I'm in a hotel in
another city doing something
00:10:07.19\00:10:10.22
and I'm horny and I think
about her and I masturbate,
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you're saying within
that context, is it okay?
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I'm wondering.
00:10:15.32\00:10:16.69
I wonder if it is because I
think it's a very easy answer
00:10:16.72\00:10:19.91
and straight forward to be
able to say, "You know what?
00:10:19.94\00:10:22.48
If you're 17, 18, 19 years old,
00:10:22.51\00:10:25.10
what are you thinking
about when you masturbate?"
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I mean, you're not
thinking about the wall. Right.
00:10:27.30\00:10:29.41
You think about a
woman or you think about--
00:10:29.44\00:10:30.81
You think about a woman
or whatever it is. Yeah.
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But if I'm-- in
that certain context,
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well, I'm thinking about a
woman who is my wife. Right.
00:10:35.63\00:10:39.42
Is it okay? I
think Kelley is right.
00:10:39.45\00:10:40.99
It's really
boiling down to the act.
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The thought that leads you
to the act could be appropriate.
00:10:45.23\00:10:49.55
So the question is
what about the act itself?
00:10:49.58\00:10:52.31
Can it all of a sudden
turn it towards inappropriate?
00:10:52.34\00:10:54.92
I think it can't.
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I think whenever we get
away from original intent,
00:10:56.35\00:11:00.08
whenever we get away from that--
00:11:00.11\00:11:01.83
and I think that is foundational
to understanding sexual purity,
00:11:01.86\00:11:05.46
is what's originally intended?
00:11:05.49\00:11:07.08
Are you saying, like,
God's original intent?
00:11:07.11\00:11:08.64
Right, very much so.
Okay. Original intent.
00:11:08.67\00:11:11.92
Whenever we get away from
that, that's when I'm feeling
00:11:11.95\00:11:14.01
we're veering
away from appropriate.
00:11:14.04\00:11:16.43
Right. So, okay, go ahead.
00:11:16.46\00:11:17.83
You know, the Bible says,
00:11:17.86\00:11:19.23
there's a way
that seems right to men
00:11:19.26\00:11:21.27
but the end there
of is destruction.
00:11:21.30\00:11:23.30
And for us being sexual
beings, you know, we have urges.
00:11:23.33\00:11:27.35
Urges that God
placed there in order for us
00:11:27.38\00:11:29.91
to do what He
original-- Desires.
00:11:29.94\00:11:31.31
You know, desires
that God placed there.
00:11:31.34\00:11:33.35
And it may seem
that us fulfilling
00:11:33.38\00:11:36.22
or satisfying that
physical desire is okay
00:11:36.25\00:11:39.26
because it's natural.
00:11:39.29\00:11:40.66
But we find that what we're
doing in order to compensate
00:11:40.69\00:11:45.35
for we don't have is drawing us
away from the original intent.
00:11:45.38\00:11:50.35
Even in, I mean, in--I think
it is a different conversation
00:11:50.38\00:11:54.39
when we're talking about
people who've been married
00:11:54.42\00:11:56.26
and in a marriage context
and people who are single.
00:11:56.29\00:11:59.82
And, I mean, we can
talk a little more about that
00:11:59.85\00:12:01.82
but I'm-- in the
context of singleness,
00:12:01.85\00:12:04.10
in the context of
those who are young people,
00:12:04.13\00:12:06.76
you know, there
masturbation is drawing us
00:12:06.79\00:12:09.18
away from the ideal because
it is substituting for ourselves
00:12:09.21\00:12:14.54
for what God intended to
be shared with someone else.
00:12:14.57\00:12:17.11
Well, we have to ask--
00:12:17.14\00:12:18.51
Well, I was just
gonna say, though,
00:12:18.54\00:12:19.91
I don't know
really is addressing
00:12:19.94\00:12:21.60
what Pastor Kelley was
saying in the sense that,
00:12:21.63\00:12:24.36
you know, I mean, yes,
the intent but remember,
00:12:24.39\00:12:27.14
you know, it's also
the intent of intimacy
00:12:27.17\00:12:30.25
within a marriage relationship.
00:12:30.28\00:12:32.36
Because the scenario
that you just told us about,
00:12:32.39\00:12:35.36
what if you are
thinking thoughts of your wife?
00:12:35.39\00:12:38.79
Or you're thinking
thoughts of your husband
00:12:38.82\00:12:40.42
when you're in a
hotel or somewhere else
00:12:40.45\00:12:41.90
and then you masturbate.
00:12:41.93\00:12:43.79
Is that
appropriate? Is that okay?
00:12:43.82\00:12:45.63
And I think when we talk
about that original intent,
00:12:45.66\00:12:47.58
we have to remember
00:12:47.61\00:12:48.98
what is the act of
sex all about as far as
00:12:49.01\00:12:52.13
what was God's intention?
00:12:52.16\00:12:53.53
Yeah, I think we should probably
establish that again-- Okay.
00:12:53.56\00:12:55.57
You know, when we look at
sex and we're saying intent
00:12:55.60\00:12:57.99
and just for the
viewers I want to make sure
00:12:58.02\00:12:59.39
they're on the
same page that we are.
00:12:59.42\00:13:00.89
When we say intent we're saying,
00:13:00.92\00:13:02.65
that God created the
sexual act to be other centered.
00:13:02.68\00:13:06.89
So when I go
into the sexual act,
00:13:06.92\00:13:08.69
I'm going into it thinking,
how can I please my spouse?
00:13:08.72\00:13:12.28
How can I please my wife?
How can I please my husband?
00:13:12.31\00:13:14.19
That's the think
that's on my mind.
00:13:14.22\00:13:16.12
And my wife, she goes
into sexual act thinking,
00:13:16.15\00:13:18.79
how can I please
my husband? Right.
00:13:18.82\00:13:20.94
And so you have
two individuals--
00:13:20.97\00:13:22.34
It's giving. Right.
00:13:22.37\00:13:23.74
You have two individuals
who are coming together
00:13:23.77\00:13:25.14
and they're other centered
00:13:25.17\00:13:26.54
trying to out love
the other person. Right.
00:13:26.57\00:13:28.15
So then would
their principle be--
00:13:28.18\00:13:30.05
because one thing
we did make clear,
00:13:30.08\00:13:31.86
the Bible
speaks about principles
00:13:31.89\00:13:33.44
but it doesn't
mention masturbation. Right.
00:13:33.47\00:13:36.19
Right, we know Onan,
00:13:36.22\00:13:37.65
that whole example of him
spilling his seed on the ground,
00:13:37.68\00:13:40.43
that's not talking about
masturbation. Right. Right. So--
00:13:40.46\00:13:42.31
That one's about pulling out.
Right. A contraceptive tool.
00:13:42.34\00:13:46.44
Especially when
God's will, stay in.
00:13:46.47\00:13:48.71
No the thing is--but I think
the question is so-- Amen. Amen.
00:13:48.74\00:13:53.23
I think we have to be
clear with the audience
00:13:53.26\00:13:55.16
because I know there
might be some who are married
00:13:55.19\00:13:56.89
who are watching but there
are some young people like,
00:13:56.92\00:13:59.05
I'm not going to
married for another
00:13:59.08\00:14:00.82
12, 15 years maybe even.
00:14:00.85\00:14:02.91
So are we then saying
that we're giving the idea
00:14:02.94\00:14:06.20
from this ideal
that God has presented
00:14:06.23\00:14:08.48
that orgasm was never
indented to be by yourself? Yes.
00:14:08.51\00:14:12.32
Yes, exactly what we're saying.
00:14:12.35\00:14:14.80
Even in any context.
00:14:14.83\00:14:16.20
You just not-- no
orgasm by yourself.
00:14:16.23\00:14:17.96
Orgasm's always meant to
be experienced with someone.
00:14:17.99\00:14:19.57
What's occurring to me
and I'm sorry to jump in
00:14:19.60\00:14:21.90
but sex in itself as God
indented is an act of worship.
00:14:21.93\00:14:26.95
It's an act of worship.
00:14:26.98\00:14:28.47
It brings us closer to the other
00:14:28.50\00:14:31.89
and it helps us to see
God in a whole new way.
00:14:31.92\00:14:35.26
And the question is,
I mean, as a principle,
00:14:35.29\00:14:38.24
am I worshiping God
if I'm masturbating?
00:14:38.27\00:14:43.24
Even if I'm focusing
now on the other person,
00:14:43.27\00:14:45.87
am I not worshiping the memory
00:14:45.90\00:14:47.29
of that other
person as I'm masturbating?
00:14:47.32\00:14:49.06
You know, it's funny
'cause-- Am I worshiping God?
00:14:49.09\00:14:51.06
when you say sex
is an act of worship.
00:14:51.09\00:14:52.85
You know, it's interesting
00:14:52.88\00:14:54.25
'cause when you
look at the sexual act,
00:14:54.28\00:14:55.65
the sex-- each individual,
00:14:55.68\00:14:57.05
each spouse is to
be so other centered.
00:14:57.08\00:14:59.08
Sex is a-- how can I say it?
00:14:59.11\00:15:01.44
Sex is something that your
need can only truly be satisfied
00:15:01.47\00:15:05.27
when you meet the need
of someone else. Right.
00:15:05.30\00:15:07.18
You know, so
it's like the only way
00:15:07.21\00:15:08.66
I can breathe is when I exhale.
00:15:08.69\00:15:10.90
I can't hold on to my breath,
if I hold on to it, I'll die.
00:15:10.93\00:15:13.58
And so I've to exhale
and then when I exhale,
00:15:13.61\00:15:16.17
my body is
functioning holistically.
00:15:16.20\00:15:18.55
So the same
thing with sex like--
00:15:18.58\00:15:19.95
the only way you can
really be pleased in sex
00:15:19.98\00:15:22.11
as if your whole goal
is to please someone else.
00:15:22.14\00:15:25.18
I go into the sexual act
00:15:25.21\00:15:26.58
not thinking what
can I get out of it?
00:15:26.61\00:15:27.98
Or how can I be pleased by?
00:15:28.01\00:15:29.38
I just want to please my
wife. I want to bless my wife.
00:15:29.41\00:15:31.16
I want her to be
happy about this thing.
00:15:31.19\00:15:32.56
Hallelujah. Thank
you, Lord. Thank you.
00:15:32.59\00:15:33.96
So when I go into that
that's when I truly experience
00:15:33.99\00:15:36.62
fulfillment and satisfaction
in the sexual realm.
00:15:36.65\00:15:40.02
Masturbation, it
turns the object of my--
00:15:40.05\00:15:44.63
my satisfaction
onto myself. Right.
00:15:44.66\00:15:46.74
So rather than please my wife,
00:15:46.77\00:15:49.67
I'm trying to get
what I can get out of it.
00:15:49.70\00:15:51.25
You know, as much
as I can get out of it
00:15:51.28\00:15:53.11
or as long as I can
it out of it, you know.
00:15:53.14\00:15:54.91
Let me support
what Kelley is saying
00:15:54.94\00:15:57.33
because from the standpoint
of pleasing my spouse.
00:15:57.36\00:16:01.56
My spouse would be mostly
pleased if I stay faithful.
00:16:01.59\00:16:06.69
So if I am on this
two week long road trip
00:16:06.72\00:16:10.08
and they are not
there, would my spouse choose,
00:16:10.11\00:16:14.37
"Okay, his urge is
building, his drive is building,
00:16:14.40\00:16:18.22
he's looking at others, it would
really help him at that point
00:16:18.25\00:16:21.36
to be able to release
that to get back focus."
00:16:21.39\00:16:24.47
I'm wondering if my
spouse would prefer for me
00:16:24.50\00:16:27.11
to release
there in order to keep
00:16:27.14\00:16:29.95
the longevity of
our commitment solid.
00:16:29.98\00:16:32.74
Yeah, but
remember now, again though,
00:16:32.77\00:16:34.36
I mean, we have to ask ourselves
what is the final goal though.
00:16:34.39\00:16:38.32
Yes, the goal is to be intimate
00:16:38.35\00:16:40.36
and for your
spouse to be pleased.
00:16:40.39\00:16:42.58
But then, I mean, there
are things within relationships
00:16:42.61\00:16:45.70
that your spouse may be pleased
with but is it pure before God?
00:16:45.73\00:16:49.36
And I think that as we
look at also being intimate,
00:16:49.39\00:16:53.40
pleasing one another, giving,
00:16:53.43\00:16:55.76
I think, the
other angle of it is,
00:16:55.79\00:16:58.05
is what we're
doing pleasing unto God?
00:16:58.08\00:17:00.47
So to summarize,
what we're saying is that,
00:17:00.50\00:17:03.95
that masturbation regardless
of whatever context it's in
00:17:03.98\00:17:07.48
is not God's ideal because
00:17:07.51\00:17:09.17
it's self-centered
and not spouse-centered.
00:17:09.20\00:17:12.09
We all kind of-- kind of--
00:17:12.12\00:17:13.49
I think, that there
have to be a way to say it
00:17:13.52\00:17:16.36
because again if we use--
'cause a lot of the arguments
00:17:16.39\00:17:19.70
I've always heard
for masturbation was,
00:17:19.73\00:17:21.10
"What are you
thinking about?" Right.
00:17:21.13\00:17:22.57
And then like I
said, in that scenario,
00:17:22.60\00:17:24.42
you know, in one of my sessions
was presented to me I say,
00:17:24.45\00:17:26.47
"Well, wait a second."
00:17:26.50\00:17:27.87
Then I'm
thinking about something
00:17:27.90\00:17:29.27
that's-- that's out there.
00:17:29.30\00:17:30.67
So the principle must be--
and I think I'll also want to be
00:17:30.70\00:17:32.90
a little practical with the two.
00:17:32.93\00:17:34.38
That even in that right
context, as we could say,
00:17:34.41\00:17:37.71
we're not thinking
about the wrong thing.
00:17:37.74\00:17:39.44
It could turn into
well, if you don't--
00:17:39.47\00:17:43.46
if I'm not happy here
and you know sometimes
00:17:43.49\00:17:45.93
when you're not connecting
all the time emotionally,
00:17:45.96\00:17:47.86
it's a little hard
to connect physically,
00:17:47.89\00:17:49.92
well, I'll still be okay.
00:17:49.95\00:17:51.50
Did you go take
care of yourself?
00:17:51.53\00:17:52.90
Because I'll take care
00:17:52.93\00:17:54.30
and I might have
still think about you
00:17:54.33\00:17:55.70
but it still will
be that disconnect.
00:17:55.73\00:17:57.10
I also could be used to--
00:17:57.13\00:17:58.50
It still
self-centered sex. Exactly.
00:17:58.53\00:17:59.90
I could get used to my own self.
00:17:59.93\00:18:01.30
So now when I
move into that realm,
00:18:01.33\00:18:05.17
I'm so used to
how I feel all myself
00:18:05.20\00:18:08.11
that now somebody
else might have hard time
00:18:08.14\00:18:10.21
bringing me to that point.
00:18:10.24\00:18:11.61
So I think the
pitfalls as well, married--
00:18:11.64\00:18:14.47
but especially,
I know the context
00:18:14.50\00:18:15.87
for our audience is youth.
00:18:15.90\00:18:17.27
The more you do that, the more--
00:18:17.30\00:18:19.89
it's you're gonna be
more accustomed to you.
00:18:19.92\00:18:22.03
And I know we're
also talking about,
00:18:22.06\00:18:24.08
you know,
pornography a little bit
00:18:24.11\00:18:25.48
and I think that ties
into the same thing. It does.
00:18:25.51\00:18:27.12
The more that
becomes a part of it,
00:18:27.15\00:18:28.74
the more you'll need that
kind of stimuli to get you--
00:18:28.77\00:18:32.13
Pornography is essentially
the same thing as self sex,
00:18:32.16\00:18:34.44
I mean self-centered sex
00:18:34.47\00:18:35.84
because rather than
having a real person
00:18:35.87\00:18:37.77
that you're going to please,
00:18:37.80\00:18:39.17
you're using this
magazine, this internet,
00:18:39.20\00:18:41.50
whatever to stimulate
and to please yourself.
00:18:41.53\00:18:43.82
You know, it's interesting
because I'm thinking about this,
00:18:43.85\00:18:45.51
I'm saying, okay, there's
probably people in the audience,
00:18:45.54\00:18:47.49
people who are
watching are saying,
00:18:47.52\00:18:48.89
"Okay, pastor, I get it,
I see what you're saying.
00:18:48.92\00:18:50.81
Self-centered sex is not right.
00:18:50.84\00:18:52.85
Masturbation is not God's ideal.
00:18:52.88\00:18:54.53
But the reality
is, is I masturbate
00:18:54.56\00:18:57.37
and I keep on masturbating.
00:18:57.40\00:18:58.77
And though I know
that's not God's ideal,
00:18:58.80\00:19:00.61
I've tried to stop masturbating.
00:19:00.64\00:19:02.01
I've tried to quit.
00:19:02.04\00:19:03.41
You know, I take cold
showers, try to wear gloves.
00:19:03.44\00:19:06.61
You know, I try to do whatever
I can to get over the hump
00:19:06.64\00:19:09.40
and so I won't
masturbate but the reality is,
00:19:09.43\00:19:11.72
I feel like I'm
someone either addicted, bound,
00:19:11.75\00:19:14.97
have this habit
that I can't break."
00:19:15.00\00:19:16.90
What do we say to that
individual who's watching,
00:19:16.93\00:19:19.80
who says, "I get it, it's not
God's plan but I'm just bound.
00:19:19.83\00:19:24.84
How do I get over this?"
00:19:24.87\00:19:26.24
I think you have to identify.
00:19:26.27\00:19:27.93
One of the main
things you have to do is
00:19:27.96\00:19:29.33
identify what triggers
happen when you masturbate?
00:19:29.36\00:19:33.70
Is it a certain hour at night?
00:19:33.73\00:19:35.34
Is it after certain
type of conversation?
00:19:35.37\00:19:37.38
Is it after
certain type of T.V. show
00:19:37.41\00:19:39.77
that you're watching?
00:19:39.80\00:19:41.17
Behind the show, you
actually gave us an example,
00:19:41.20\00:19:44.62
what's that example you gave us?
00:19:44.65\00:19:46.02
Yeah, you know, like,
there's this one individual
00:19:46.05\00:19:48.65
who had shared the
idea that you know,
00:19:48.68\00:19:50.72
when they're on the phone
with their girl for instance
00:19:50.75\00:19:53.94
at 2 o'clock in the afternoon.
00:19:53.97\00:19:55.65
It's all good, you
know, we're just talking.
00:19:55.68\00:19:57.64
But man, we have those 11
o'clock conversations. P.M.
00:19:57.67\00:20:01.49
Yeah, that messes with me.
00:20:01.52\00:20:02.89
And that's not to say
00:20:02.92\00:20:04.29
that there's
something wrong with the p.m.
00:20:04.32\00:20:05.69
per se 'cause
someone might be the reverse,
00:20:05.72\00:20:07.53
at 11 o' clock, they
barely awake on a phone
00:20:07.56\00:20:09.43
but at 2 o'
clock-- and so it's just
00:20:09.46\00:20:11.08
the idea of identifying
when this is usually happening.
00:20:11.11\00:20:14.54
If it is something
also with pornography,
00:20:14.57\00:20:16.83
where you're connecting that,
00:20:16.86\00:20:18.23
make sure when you
are on your computer,
00:20:18.26\00:20:21.09
it's facing
towards an open door.
00:20:21.12\00:20:22.90
You know, very,
very practical things.
00:20:22.93\00:20:25.03
But I think the first thing is
00:20:25.06\00:20:26.43
identify what is it that
happens in my life that--
00:20:26.46\00:20:29.73
after that happens, I
usually find myself doing this.
00:20:29.76\00:20:32.78
And when you identify
what the trigger is then--
00:20:32.81\00:20:35.94
no one's saying
that all the time
00:20:35.97\00:20:37.34
you got to stop the trigger,
00:20:37.37\00:20:38.74
let's say
something inappropriate
00:20:38.77\00:20:40.14
because sometimes they're just
certain moments of the month--
00:20:40.17\00:20:41.79
That you feel--
That you feel that.
00:20:41.82\00:20:43.26
But you got to replace that
feeling with something else.
00:20:43.29\00:20:46.50
Right. And you
can't just leave--
00:20:46.53\00:20:47.90
You know, it's
interesting, you know,
00:20:47.93\00:20:49.30
I actually heard of an instance
00:20:49.33\00:20:50.89
where there was a gentleman
00:20:50.92\00:20:52.29
who had been
masturbating for years
00:20:52.32\00:20:54.16
and he was just so frustrated,
so upset with himself,
00:20:54.19\00:20:56.61
he finally went to talk
with his pastor about it
00:20:56.64\00:20:58.65
and the pastor, you know,
did what you did and said,
00:20:58.68\00:21:01.07
"When are you doing this?"
00:21:01.10\00:21:02.47
He says, "Well, it only
happens like Saturday nights."
00:21:02.50\00:21:05.03
He said, "Well, what's
going on Saturday night?"
00:21:05.06\00:21:06.80
He says, "I come
home, I'm at house--
00:21:06.83\00:21:08.86
at the house by
myself, all my friends,
00:21:08.89\00:21:11.35
all my married friends
are out with their families
00:21:11.38\00:21:14.04
and I'm here by myself."
00:21:14.07\00:21:15.77
And as the pastor began
to dig a little bit deeper,
00:21:15.80\00:21:18.32
he realized that him
masturbating was almost him
00:21:18.35\00:21:21.31
being angry at God.
00:21:21.34\00:21:22.80
Why am I still single? Wow.
00:21:22.83\00:21:24.35
You know, why are all
my other friends married
00:21:24.38\00:21:26.08
but I'm not married?
00:21:26.11\00:21:27.48
And I'm at home by myself
00:21:27.51\00:21:28.88
when everyone else is
out having a good time.
00:21:28.91\00:21:30.28
And so once he realized that--
00:21:30.31\00:21:31.83
he was masturbating almost
to say, God, I deserve this.
00:21:31.86\00:21:35.33
You know, until
you get me a partner,
00:21:35.36\00:21:37.20
I'm gonna masturbate.
00:21:37.23\00:21:38.66
When the pastor was able to
kind of pull that thing apart
00:21:38.69\00:21:42.82
and kind of get down the
root, he was able to identify,
00:21:42.85\00:21:44.92
man, it's not a sexual issue
00:21:44.95\00:21:47.59
that I'm so dealing with
as much as a spiritual issue,
00:21:47.62\00:21:51.14
that I have this
disconnect with God
00:21:51.17\00:21:52.70
because of my, my status.
00:21:52.73\00:21:54.84
And so because of that,
00:21:54.87\00:21:56.24
it manifested
itself in the sexual realm.
00:21:56.27\00:21:57.97
So understanding the triggers,
00:21:58.00\00:21:59.53
why do I do what I do,
is very, very important.
00:21:59.56\00:22:03.39
Yeah, and I think,
just kind of, you know,
00:22:03.42\00:22:05.77
the common sense
thing that we all know.
00:22:05.80\00:22:07.92
I mean, you can identify
triggers but ultimately,
00:22:07.95\00:22:10.79
really, you
know, we get strength
00:22:10.82\00:22:12.46
from God to help us overcome.
00:22:12.49\00:22:14.62
And I mean, you know,
00:22:14.65\00:22:16.02
I think, maybe some of our
young people may feel like,
00:22:16.05\00:22:17.64
"Oh, well, you know, that's the,
00:22:17.67\00:22:19.58
you know, the pat answer
that pastors would give you,
00:22:19.61\00:22:23.11
you know, seek God."--
00:22:23.14\00:22:24.51
Well, make it practical.
What does that look like?
00:22:24.54\00:22:25.91
What does
strength from God mean?
00:22:25.94\00:22:27.31
I mean, to a young kid,
16, 17, who struggles with it.
00:22:27.34\00:22:29.94
What is strength from God?
00:22:29.97\00:22:31.34
Yeah, you know, I mean,
that's really just really
00:22:31.37\00:22:33.41
developing a
relationship with God.
00:22:33.44\00:22:35.47
And I think
within that relationship
00:22:35.50\00:22:37.95
as far as
spending time with God,
00:22:37.98\00:22:39.99
spending time in
His word, prayer,
00:22:40.02\00:22:42.35
doing things that are
gonna build you up spiritually.
00:22:42.38\00:22:45.53
It gives you more strength
to-- in those times of weakness,
00:22:45.56\00:22:49.68
for God to be able to
work through your life.
00:22:49.71\00:22:51.55
Now that's not
the only component,
00:22:51.58\00:22:53.28
he said triggers as
well, that you also have,
00:22:53.31\00:22:55.60
just man, being accountable.
00:22:55.63\00:22:57.05
Like the guy at the
Saturday night thing.
00:22:57.08\00:22:58.73
If you know
Saturday night is your night,
00:22:58.76\00:23:02.09
you know, I got to--yo, bro,
someone that you confide in.
00:23:02.12\00:23:06.25
Man, I struggle on
Saturday nights, brother.
00:23:06.28\00:23:09.61
Let's talk about video games.
Let's go play video games.
00:23:09.64\00:23:11.78
Yeah, let's go play,
yeah. Come through man.
00:23:11.81\00:23:13.49
You know, 'cause, you
know, you're not going--
00:23:13.52\00:23:15.19
well, you're not
going to do your thing.
00:23:15.22\00:23:17.14
Somebody else did.
00:23:17.17\00:23:18.54
When Mike's over at the
crib, you know. Amen, amen.
00:23:18.57\00:23:21.29
Let's just deal with the sneak
00:23:21.32\00:23:22.69
into the bathroom-- Yeah, right.
00:23:22.72\00:23:24.48
But piggy backing
off of what Alfonzo said,
00:23:24.51\00:23:27.01
I think that
strength from Christ--
00:23:27.04\00:23:30.55
whenever we're
getting to that point
00:23:30.58\00:23:31.95
where that urge is
driving us to self pleasure,
00:23:31.98\00:23:34.92
we really have to look at
it as either this or this.
00:23:34.95\00:23:39.96
We have to go
through a comparison.
00:23:39.99\00:23:41.77
We have to get to the point
00:23:41.80\00:23:43.17
where we're
willing to admit, okay,
00:23:43.20\00:23:46.03
this is outside of
God's will or on this hand,
00:23:46.06\00:23:49.49
this is in God's
will for me to abstain.
00:23:49.52\00:23:51.89
Which one is more
important to me at this point?
00:23:51.92\00:23:54.39
And we have to
continue to ask these questions.
00:23:54.42\00:23:57.41
Is my closeness to
Christ more important
00:23:57.44\00:24:00.62
or is my release of
this urge more important?
00:24:00.65\00:24:03.32
And the Bible,
especially Romans Chapter 8,
00:24:03.35\00:24:06.56
really gives us a promise
00:24:06.59\00:24:08.06
that as we seek our
importance rooted in Christ,
00:24:08.09\00:24:12.15
the Holy Spirit will
come on the inside of us
00:24:12.18\00:24:15.21
and give us victory
over those besetting sins.
00:24:15.24\00:24:17.09
And let me say though, that
part of that victory though,
00:24:17.12\00:24:19.97
because I love-- I think
00:24:20.00\00:24:21.59
we need to make
spirituality very practical.
00:24:21.62\00:24:23.98
The fact is with that victory,
00:24:24.01\00:24:26.04
the Holy Spirit might
lead you to talk to somebody
00:24:26.07\00:24:28.36
because these behaviors
like masturbation, pornography,
00:24:28.39\00:24:31.50
are clinically proven
to be addictive behaviors.
00:24:31.53\00:24:35.25
These are things
that there's nothing wrong
00:24:35.28\00:24:37.11
and I think people need to know
00:24:37.14\00:24:38.82
that after you spend a lot of
time in prayer about it. Right.
00:24:38.85\00:24:41.61
After you've been moving that,
00:24:41.64\00:24:43.36
God has set up
Christian counselors
00:24:43.39\00:24:46.39
and people to deal
with this kind of behavior
00:24:46.42\00:24:48.84
because some people who
come to me even as a pastor
00:24:48.87\00:24:51.29
and they say, and I say,
00:24:51.32\00:24:52.69
hey, let's do some of these
things we've even talked about.
00:24:52.72\00:24:54.82
You know, God, is sometimes,
I think, He's gonna lead him.
00:24:54.85\00:24:57.30
You know, what,
there's something else.
00:24:57.33\00:24:59.01
There's another
tool that you need to use
00:24:59.04\00:25:01.11
whether it's a
recovery program, those things
00:25:01.14\00:25:03.64
because it gets to a point,
00:25:03.67\00:25:05.65
I don't know all of
the psychological things
00:25:05.68\00:25:07.90
behind it and physical things
00:25:07.93\00:25:09.58
where it literally
becomes this addictive behavior,
00:25:09.61\00:25:12.40
where when you stop it
you go through withdrawals
00:25:12.43\00:25:15.68
and those kinds of things.
00:25:15.71\00:25:17.08
And so I just want to make that
clear that some people think,
00:25:17.11\00:25:19.88
"oh, if I can't
stop, I'm not close enough,
00:25:19.91\00:25:21.93
you know, to God
and He's not answering,
00:25:21.96\00:25:23.90
then they say,
that means it's okay
00:25:23.93\00:25:25.30
because He's
never taken it away."
00:25:25.33\00:25:26.91
Sometimes what
God's gonna do, is say,
00:25:26.94\00:25:28.32
"Yeah, I'm gonna be with
you but I'm want to be with you
00:25:28.35\00:25:31.12
while you're
talking to somebody that's,
00:25:31.15\00:25:33.21
you know, that
you could be there."
00:25:33.24\00:25:34.61
And I hope that made it clear.
00:25:34.64\00:25:36.01
So there's some
practical things that--
00:25:36.04\00:25:37.41
You got to do that. You know--
00:25:37.44\00:25:38.89
He's got be important
enough to you do that. Right.
00:25:38.92\00:25:40.81
And I love that idea.
00:25:40.84\00:25:42.25
Being in God's
will is so important.
00:25:42.28\00:25:44.28
That I'm gonna do whatever
it takes to clear those things--
00:25:44.31\00:25:47.84
And if I could, I
just want to go back
00:25:47.87\00:25:49.38
to this triggers conversation
00:25:49.41\00:25:50.82
that Pastor Kelley
brought up earlier.
00:25:50.85\00:25:52.80
Triggers are
not always external.
00:25:52.83\00:25:55.35
And, pastor Yelorda,
you brought it out clearly
00:25:55.38\00:25:58.26
that this guy had an
internal battle. With God.
00:25:58.29\00:26:00.40
This is--with God. Yeah.
00:26:00.43\00:26:01.80
And you could have an
internal battle with mom
00:26:01.83\00:26:05.09
or an internal battle
with your school environment.
00:26:05.12\00:26:08.47
These triggers can be emotional.
00:26:08.50\00:26:10.94
They could be internal and
that's why it's so important
00:26:10.97\00:26:13.43
to be willing to
get professional help,
00:26:13.46\00:26:15.32
to go to counseling and say,
00:26:15.35\00:26:17.81
"I know my problem, I
just don't know why I do it.
00:26:17.84\00:26:20.27
Can you help me
on that journey?"
00:26:20.30\00:26:21.71
And I think we
have to be intentional
00:26:21.74\00:26:24.37
as we present this program
00:26:24.40\00:26:25.95
in sharing that it
is going to be a battle.
00:26:25.98\00:26:29.33
I think that
word is very apropos.
00:26:29.36\00:26:32.16
It's going to be a battle
and we have to be intentional.
00:26:32.19\00:26:35.90
I think as spiritual leaders
in sharing with our young people
00:26:35.93\00:26:39.26
that it really is that deep.
00:26:39.29\00:26:41.09
We spoke in another program
00:26:41.12\00:26:42.52
about how our
media is telling us that,
00:26:42.55\00:26:45.68
you know,
expressing your sexuality
00:26:45.71\00:26:47.49
even if it's outside of
God's ideal, is not that deep.
00:26:47.52\00:26:50.41
Everybody is doing it,
it's natural, it's okay.
00:26:50.44\00:26:53.46
And I think that we have to
be intentional about saying,
00:26:53.49\00:26:55.58
it really is that deep.
00:26:55.61\00:26:57.55
It really is
something so important
00:26:57.58\00:26:59.89
that you need to
go get spiritual help.
00:26:59.92\00:27:01.58
You need to get counseling.
00:27:01.61\00:27:02.98
You need to be
able to talk to somebody
00:27:03.01\00:27:04.58
because reaching God's
ideal is that important.
00:27:04.61\00:27:08.72
It really is
that important to God
00:27:08.75\00:27:11.09
and God is
wanting us to experience
00:27:11.12\00:27:12.82
the fullness of what He
intended our sexuality to be.
00:27:12.85\00:27:15.26
You know, and we probably
need to lift up God's ideal,
00:27:15.29\00:27:17.76
you know, so that
everyone understands
00:27:17.79\00:27:19.71
what God has in
store for you is something
00:27:19.74\00:27:22.57
so much better than you can
imagine the world giving you.
00:27:22.60\00:27:25.03
That God's ideal
00:27:25.06\00:27:26.49
between a husband and
a wife is so beautiful.
00:27:26.52\00:27:29.25
It's unfortunate
because so many marriages fail.
00:27:29.28\00:27:31.09
They say like 56% of marriage,
00:27:31.12\00:27:32.91
first time
marriage end in divorce.
00:27:32.94\00:27:34.33
And so a lot of our young people
00:27:34.36\00:27:35.73
have these distorted
pictures of what marriage is.
00:27:35.76\00:27:38.26
But as God designed a husband
and wife to come together,
00:27:38.29\00:27:40.85
that thing will
satisfy your every need.
00:27:40.88\00:27:44.26
You know, and so masturbating,
engaging in illicit sex,
00:27:44.29\00:27:49.22
pre-marital sex is almost like
00:27:49.25\00:27:51.05
rather than waiting
for the cake to bake
00:27:51.08\00:27:52.86
you just want to
eat the raw eggs.
00:27:52.89\00:27:54.61
You know, rather then waiting
for everything to come together,
00:27:54.64\00:27:56.56
you just want to
eat the flour, you know.
00:27:56.59\00:27:58.11
And that thing
was important to say
00:27:58.14\00:27:59.51
'cause I love the
analogy-- That's good.
00:27:59.54\00:28:01.11
Because they're parts of
that, that taste good. Yeah.
00:28:01.14\00:28:03.68
But it's not as
good as the actual cake.
00:28:03.71\00:28:06.62
And you got to understand that.
00:28:06.65\00:28:08.02
It is good but God
always has something
00:28:08.05\00:28:10.80
that is that much better.
00:28:10.83\00:28:12.20
Right. You know.
Listen, we got go.
00:28:12.23\00:28:14.25
Our time is up but
this was the conversation
00:28:14.28\00:28:16.43
that we need to continue.
00:28:16.46\00:28:17.83
You know, we need to
have after show wrap session,
00:28:17.86\00:28:19.83
after the fact we can
continue to discuss this issue.
00:28:19.86\00:28:22.78
And for all of our viewers
00:28:22.81\00:28:24.18
we're glad that
you've tuned in again.
00:28:24.21\00:28:25.58
We hope we see you next week.
00:28:25.61\00:28:26.98
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00:28:27.01\00:28:29.04
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00:28:29.07\00:28:30.44
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00:28:30.47\00:28:31.84
If you have questions, comments,
00:28:31.87\00:28:33.41
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be willing to engage you
00:28:33.44\00:28:35.17
on a personal
level there as well.
00:28:35.20\00:28:37.02
And we're just so
glad that you're here.
00:28:37.05\00:28:38.42
He hope to see you next week,
00:28:38.45\00:28:39.82
same time, same
place, be blessed.
00:28:39.85\00:28:41.22