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Series Code: NSN
Program Code: NSN000081
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00:23 Hi friends, and welcome to another edition of NEWSTART Now.
00:27 In our studio today, we have Gudrun Olafsdaughter 00:31 from Denmark. 00:33 And rather than me talk about 00:36 what was happening when she got here, 00:37 we're going to watch a clip right now. 00:40 I'm here because I'm overly stressed 00:44 And I need to regain my energy and myself back. 00:50 I want to walk with God, 00:52 and I want God 00:55 to intervene in my healing. 00:58 Be a part of my healing because 01:00 I know that if He is a part of it 01:03 It will last. 01:07 What I want... 01:10 The result of being here at Weimar 01:13 is I want balance in my life. 01:16 I want balance in my Spiritual life 01:20 and in my body and soul. 01:26 Welcome back friends and in our studio is 01:29 Gudrun, how are you dear? -I'm fine, thank you. 01:31 Good to see you. 01:32 It's good to see you because you have a smile on your face! 01:36 Tell us about what has happened since you've been here. 01:40 Well, a lot of things have been 01:42 happening since I came to Weimar. 01:45 The program is really good 01:47 and we do a lot of outdoor activities. 01:51 And the staff is amazing 01:56 and the doctors 01:58 are highly qualified. 02:01 Now you have Doctor... 02:03 -DeRose -David DeRose 02:06 He's a wonderful doctor -Yes, he is. 02:08 And we're going to be interviewing him 02:10 in just a little bit as well. 02:12 But back to you... 02:14 You say the staff is wonderful, everyone is treating you good. 02:18 What do you like most about the program? 02:21 Well... 02:24 I feel like God is leading this program. 02:27 -So you got what you came here for. 02:29 You said you wanted some Spiritual uplifting... 02:33 ...I forget your exact words. 02:35 -Yes, and guidance. 02:37 And what I feel with the doctors here 02:40 that they seek God's guidance 02:42 in... 02:44 defining people's problems. 02:47 And I've been dealing with stress for many years 02:51 and also I... 02:57 I believed I had thyroid problems 03:00 and I had been going to doctors 03:02 both in Iceland, where I come from 03:04 and also in Denmark, 03:06 for the past 30 years. 03:08 -Wow. 03:09 And they have not been able to help me. 03:11 -With the thyroid. 03:14 Someone gave me a prescription for hormones 03:21 that I was lacking 03:22 or didn't produce enough of. 03:25 And I had been taking this medicine 03:28 for many years without improvement. 03:33 And it was getting so bad; 03:35 you know for the past year 03:37 I've gained a lot of weight. 03:40 And I've gained like 80 pounds total 03:45 through the last 13 years. 03:50 And, I felt like something was pushing on my throat. 03:55 So it was very uncomfortable at times 03:57 Because sometimes I felt it 04:01 depended on if I was stressed 04:04 or busy and things. 04:08 For the last year it has been increasing 04:11 The doctors would say, 04:13 "Your thyroid is slightly enlarged" 04:16 But it's not a problem. 04:18 It's kind of out of shape. 04:20 -So what has happened with Dr. DeRose and you? 04:25 Have you identified this problem? 04:27 He identified the problem on my birthday. 04:30 It was the best birthday present ever! 04:32 -Oh my goodness! 04:33 And he saw that I have myxedema 04:38 -Ah... 04:40 And he is giving me what I need to improve 04:44 and I already can feel a slight healing 04:51 But it takes 2-3 months 04:54 for the medicine to peak in effectiveness. 04:58 -Praise God! -Yes 05:00 So that's wonderful news! 05:02 -It has been a long, long journey for me. 05:04 30 years! 05:06 And here you come to the little town of Weimar, 05:10 to the NEWSTART program, 05:12 and Dr. David DeRose says, 05:14 "Oh, well we can fix you there" 05:16 But you know God works in mysterious ways. 05:19 -Yes, and with God's guidance. 05:21 Yes, because doctors before have been saying, 05:25 "Ok you need this hormone" 05:27 And others say, "Well the thyroid is 05:29 not that bad that I would prescribe any medicine. 05:35 But the thyroid is very difficult to define 05:40 If you have thyroid problems. 05:42 Because the symptoms variate 05:45 -That's right. 05:46 Now what about weight? 05:48 You said you wanted to lose some weight 05:49 because you gained 80 pounds. Have you lost some weight here? 05:52 I've lost a total of 9 pounds since I came. 05:56 -Good. 05:58 But there is a long way to go. 06:01 And I know it will come gradually 06:04 Because the thyroid problem... 06:08 it takes time. It takes time. 06:11 Now what about any other issues you were dealing with, 06:14 have you resolved them? 06:16 Yes. My blood pressure has gone down. 06:19 to an optimal level. 06:21 -And your blood pressure is now what? 06:24 This morning it was 113/68 06:31 -Well that's good! 06:34 And were you taking medication for blood pressure? 06:36 No, not at all. It was just going up, 06:38 I believe because of stress. 06:40 You know, when I was stressed it went up. 06:42 So... 06:44 I just have to... 06:45 Your body automatically increases 06:47 blood pressure when under stress. 06:50 So now it's normalized completely. 06:54 Any other issues? 06:57 Yes, the stress issue. 06:59 I need peace. 07:02 Have you found peace here? 07:05 Yes, I have found peace, but I still need to work on it 07:09 with prayer and God's help 07:12 Praise God! 07:13 Well you know this 07:15 marvelous discovery after 30 years 07:18 is going to over shadow almost everything else! 07:21 -I think it's more than 30 years 07:22 because I think it started when I was a teenager. 07:24 -Oh wow. 07:26 So what did you like most about the program? 07:29 What part of the program-- aside from that discovery? 07:33 I loved the hiking tours. 07:36 -You liked the hiking tours. -Yes, I loved them. 07:37 We had a beautiful hiking tour 07:41 out in the country. 07:44 There were cows there, there was a waterfall. 07:47 And it was beautiful! 07:49 And we had a picnic 07:51 and God gave us the most wonderful weather that day. 07:54 That one day... It's been raining and all of the sudden 07:57 the picnic comes and it stops raining. 07:59 And you were out and I think it was 65 or 70 degrees 08:03 It was beautiful. 08:04 It was a day to remember. 08:08 So how about the hydrotherapy did you like that? 08:11 Yes, I did. That was very good. 08:14 Actually this is something I'm going to use 08:16 when I go back home. 08:19 When taking showers every day. 08:21 What you mean is use hot and cold. -Yes 08:25 And what does that do for you? 08:27 Well it increases the blood stream. 08:30 And also I can do it on my thyroid 08:34 to make it function better. 08:37 -Yes. 08:38 Well praise God! 08:40 Um... 08:42 The food. 08:43 Have you had any problem... 08:45 Were you vegetarian when you came here? 08:47 Yes, I was partly vegetarian/vegan before I came. 08:51 so this was not a revelation for me. 08:57 It was for me! 08:58 It's for people who come from a different environment. 09:02 ...a different lifestyle. 09:03 Because, you know... 09:05 Because I haven't been accepting the way my body has been acting 09:10 Then I have been trying to find ways to heal it. 09:15 Because if the doctors can't help you, what do you do? 09:19 You try yourself. 09:20 Yours is such a wonderful testimony. 09:24 And I just want to give a 09:26 comment to our viewers now. 09:30 Here we have a lady that's been dealing with an illness, 09:35 No fault of anyone that they couldn't find out 09:38 You know God brought her here 09:39 to the NEWSTART program at Weimar 09:42 And she came halfway around the world to be here. 09:47 And lo and behold 09:49 Dr. David DeRose, He's an internist by the way, 09:53 discovered her problem. 09:55 And I just want to give that glory to God 09:58 our Father who has brought you here 10:00 He truly has. 10:02 And the many people who have been 10:03 praying for you since you've been here, 10:05 and will continue to pray for you after you're gone. 10:09 And I want to thank you for being on our program with us. 10:13 And thank you for your testimony and God bless you. 10:17 -Thank you. 10:18 And thank you friends, 10:20 but don't go away. We have an important message for you. 10:24 Well, you've done very well. 10:32 Do you have diabetes, 10:33 heart disease, high blood pressure, 10:36 or do you weigh too much? 10:38 Hi, my name is Dr. Ing, and I'd like to tell you 10:41 about our 18-day NEWSTART lifestyle program. 10:45 It includes a comprehensive medical 10:47 evaluation with laboratories and an 10:49 exercise stress test, 10:51 physician consultations, 10:53 culinary school, 10:55 and an opportunity to walk on beautiful 10:58 trails in the foothills of the Sierras. 11:02 Your health is one of the most 11:04 important things that you have. Don't wait. 11:06 Give us a call. 11:11 Or visit our website. 11:30 Welcome back friends and in our studio 11:32 Dr. David DeRose How are you doctor? 11:34 -Good. Good to be with you Ron. 11:35 -Good to see you! 11:37 You know 11:38 whenever I 11:40 try or even attempt to glorify the doctors here 11:45 I know I'm put in my place real quick. 11:47 But I have to comment 11:49 We have a lady who's been all over the world 11:53 receiving treatment for over 30 years 11:57 and she comes here. 11:59 How is it that we found this problem? 12:02 Well, you know you hear this story 12:05 from different perspectives 12:06 and I'll be honest with you 12:08 really I think Gudrun hit the nail on the head when she 12:11 mentioned that God is really at work--He's leading. 12:14 And for those of my friends who are physicians, 12:17 sometimes it's not enough even to make the correct diagnosis 12:22 It's somehow making that diagnosis 12:25 in the context of someone's entire lifestyle 12:27 exactly what they're dealing with 12:29 explaining to the person, 12:31 helping them see the connection 12:32 and then get on a treatment program 12:34 where they actually see some impact. 12:36 It's not that no one had ever mentioned 12:39 thyroid disease with Gudrun 12:41 In fact, awhile into her program 12:45 she got something that she had been 12:48 very, very... 12:51 very much struggling to get for about a week 12:54 while she had been here. 12:56 And that was lab reports from Denmark. 12:58 -Oh! 12:59 And how did they relate to the lab reports we've done here? 13:04 -Well the interesting thing about what had been done 13:06 is there was this consistant pattern over the years 13:09 that when Gudrun was put on thyroid replacement, 13:13 she had been on thyroid medications over the years, 13:16 we'd see improvement in certain levels 13:19 and then someone would take her off or she'd go off of them 13:23 and you'd see these same numbers worsen. 13:26 To get that bird's eye view 13:28 in records that she actually had 13:31 made it fairly clear what was going on 13:33 with her thyroid by certain measurements that had been done. 13:36 One of them that we often look at 13:38 in low thyroid states is called TSH, 13:41 or Thyroid Stimulating Hormone. 13:44 -What is it that you discovered 13:46 that's so much different 13:48 then perhaps the other doctors 13:50 And I know that you're now treating her 13:52 Can you explain to the viewers what that is? 13:55 -Sure. 13:57 Many people have thyroid problems, 13:59 and some of you tuning in 14:00 today may have problems with your thyroid, 14:03 TSH, or Thyroid Stimulating Hormone, 14:05 is probably the single best marker for low thyroid states. 14:10 If that TSH is high 14:12 it indicates a thyroid deficiency in most cases. 14:16 And doesn't that seem ironic 14:17 to actually get a blood test of something 14:19 that has to do with thyroid. 14:21 If it's high, you've got a problem 14:22 -Right. (laughs) 14:24 The way I explain it to patients, Ron, 14:25 is your pituitary gland, 14:28 a little gland at the base of your brain, 14:30 is monitoring thyroid status throughout your body. 14:34 Everyone of us -- our pituitary is doing that job. 14:37 Our pituitary actually talks with the thyroid. 14:41 Have you ever heard your 14:42 pituitary talking to your thyroid? 14:45 -Uh, not lately. (laughs) -That's good. 14:48 -Did I pass that test? -Yes you passed that test. 14:50 Because it doesn't actually speak audibly 14:53 to the thyroid gland, 14:54 it speaks by sending a chemical message called TSH. 14:58 If your thyroid, which is in the base of your neck, 15:01 is sluggish, 15:03 the pituitary starts to say, "Work harder" 15:07 "Work harder!" 15:09 And increasing the volume, if you will, 15:11 is sending more TSH. That's how it does it. 15:14 So if your thyroid is sluggish 15:16 it will raise the levels of TSH. 15:19 That is our indication on a blood test 15:22 of someone having a problem with hypothyroidism 15:25 Now there are unusual situations 15:27 where things kind of work differently, 15:29 but for all intents and purposes 15:30 in most people, if they're hypothyroid 15:33 from failure of the thyroid gland 15:35 that TSH level will be high. 15:36 So we saw this pattern in Gudrun 15:41 that TSH was higher than it should have been, 15:43 she'd be treated, those numbers would improve 15:46 and yet she wasn't really feeling much better 15:51 when she was under treatment. 15:53 and in fact, 15:54 they would often over-treat her. 15:55 They would give her so much that the TSH level would get too low 15:59 And presumably they might have been trying to manipulate 16:03 the level of the hormone replacement 16:05 based on her symptoms. 16:07 It's very common, we often do that. 16:10 And then we check the blood work, 16:11 as they did in Denmark, just like we do in the states 16:14 the level is then too low 16:16 and then people would back off. 16:17 So she was kind of on this cycle 16:20 where she'd be on the thyroid replacement, 16:22 she wouldn't feel much better, 16:24 they'd continue to ramp it up, 16:25 she ended up getting too much. 16:27 she maybe was feeling worse, 16:29 and then they'd stop it, 16:31 or she would stop it altogether. 16:33 One of the interesting things 16:35 that some of the researches have found 16:36 with thyroid is still very controversial, 16:38 but it's with certain people 16:40 they actually do best if we replace 16:43 not just T4... 16:46 let me explain it this way. 16:47 The thyroid actually makes two active hormones, 16:51 for short we call them T3 and T4 16:54 most people it seems can do just fine 16:57 with taking T4 alone. 16:59 So if one of our viewers 17:02 has been on thyroid replacement medication-- 17:04 maybe you've taken Synthroid, 17:06 or Levoxyl, 17:07 or one of these medications-- 17:09 these are T4 preparations. 17:11 Levothyroxine 17:12 generic name for it. 17:14 Many people, if they're hypothyroid, 17:16 that's all they take, T4, 17:17 and they seem to do fine. 17:19 There's another percentage of the population, 17:21 seems to be small, 17:22 that if they're not also getting some T3 17:25 that symptomatically they don't do as well, 17:27 and this was the case with Gudrun. 17:30 -this was the case with her... 17:31 So we put her on a little bit of T3 17:34 along with the T4 and 17:37 my connection of what she was describing 17:39 is in the first time in treating the thyroid, 17:42 she's actually not only 17:45 getting the proper thyroid replacement, 17:47 but she's actually feeling better. 17:49 Now how much of that is the Lord's blessing 17:51 some of our viewing physicians might say, "well... 17:55 you know this is just some sort of placebo effect 17:57 but if you look at the literature 17:59 there really seems to be something 18:01 in certain patients, 18:02 maybe it has to do with there 18:04 ability or inability to convert T4 to T3 18:07 But we know the thyroid gland, 18:09 if it's working healthfully, 18:11 working properly, 18:12 is making both T3 and T4 18:14 and in Gudrun's case it seemed like that combination 18:17 really made a difference that she hadn't seen 18:20 with the typical, normal strategy of thyroid replacement. 18:23 -Well she considers it a birthday gift 18:26 that this discovery has been made. 18:29 But I've got to ask you at the same time, 18:31 What about... 18:33 Iodine. How does that play a part 18:36 with hypothyroidism? 18:40 Iodine is a very tricky element, 18:43 or micronutrient as we often refer to it as. 18:46 It is true that you need iodine 18:48 to make thyroid hormone. 18:50 -Is there enough in the salt? 18:52 Iodized salt for most people 18:54 seems to address their iodine need 18:56 in fact most people don't need iodized salt 18:59 unless they're living in regions of the country 19:01 that are iodine deficient. 19:03 -Seaweed, would that help? 19:04 Well seaweed has a lot of iodine, 19:06 now here's the catch, Ron, 19:07 Both too little iodine 19:11 and too much iodine 19:13 can shut down the thyroid. 19:14 -Really? 19:15 Yes, so if you give large amounts of iodine 19:17 that can actually depress thyroid function. 19:19 -Well what about people in Asia, say Korea or Japan, 19:23 who eat a lot of seaweed, 19:26 are they at risk? 19:29 -There's actually some interesting relationships 19:31 especially if a person 19:33 had been getting lower 19:34 iodine at one point in their life 19:36 then ramping that up 19:37 may increase their risk of problems like thyroid nodules, 19:41 some of those may even be precancerous 19:43 So iodine is not something I ever recommend a lay person 19:48 supplementing. 19:50 If they're seeing a physician who really 19:52 is expert 19:54 in knowing how to use iodine to treat the thyroid 19:57 they're in great shape. 19:58 Because I'll be honest with you, 19:59 I've worked with lots of endocrinologists 20:01 but most of them feel, 20:02 at least in their clinical practice, 20:05 Iodine is such a difficult thing to try to titrate 20:08 or to try to dose properly 20:10 that they actually tend to avoid 20:12 using iodine at all and they just would 20:14 replace the thyroid if it's deficient 20:17 -So... 20:18 for our viewers at home that are listening in, 20:21 I being one of them listening very intently, 20:24 we shouldn't try iodine on our own 20:28 without, perhaps, our physician or our doctor 20:32 helping us along. -Yeah I wouldn't recommend it. 20:33 The problem is like I eluded to, Ron, 20:36 iodine is important, 20:38 but taking to much of it is a problem. 20:40 And the average doctor, 20:41 even the average endocrinologist, 20:43 if you say, "I want to take some iodine to treat this" 20:46 in my experience most of them are 20:47 going to discourage you from doing it 20:48 just because it is do difficult to regulate. 20:52 Now we've spent a lot of time now doctor 20:55 we only have a few seconds left 20:57 with the thyroid 20:59 are there any last remarks you'd like to make? 21:03 Basically the remark I'd like to make is 21:05 whether it's a thyroid problem, or some other 21:07 immunologic or endocrine problem 21:09 there are some incredible 21:10 insights that God has in lifestyle 21:12 that can make a difference for you. 21:13 And then just working with a team of professionals, 21:15 whether it's in your own hometown or here at Weimar, 21:18 can make a huge difference. 21:19 Well doctor I want to thank you for coming on our program 21:23 it's always a pleasure to see you 21:25 God bless you in your work. 21:27 And thank you friends 21:28 but don't go away, we have a tip for you right after this. 21:32 Hello, I'm Dr. David DeRose 21:35 You know, helping a friend, neighbor, or relative 21:37 have better health 21:39 is one of the most practical 21:40 forms of health ministry available. 21:42 However, if you're not a health professional 21:44 it can be extremely difficult 21:46 to help someone to access 21:47 reliable, credible, up-to-date health information. 21:51 That's why I recommend 21:53 The NEWSTART Lifestyle Club. 21:55 The club is based on the world-famous NEWSTART principles 21:58 that have helped millions be well 22:00 naturally without the use of drugs. 22:02 The club offers streaming video, 22:04 expert health advice, wellness tips, tools, and more! 22:07 And when it comes to ministry 22:09 the NEWSTART Lifestyle Club provides a way 22:11 for sponsor churches and health organizations 22:14 to connect with club 22:15 members in their own communities. 22:17 If you'd like to learn more 22:19 about how the NEWSTART Lifestyle Club 22:21 can make a difference in your health outreach, 22:23 Call... 22:27 and ask for your free copy of 22:29 Health Evangelism Made Simple. 22:48 Welcome to NEWSTART at Home 22:50 I'm your host today, Dr. David DeRose 22:53 and with me, registered dietitian 22:55 Hildelisa Flickinger. 22:56 Hildelisa it's great to have you with us today. 22:59 Thank you, glad to be here. 23:00 Hildelisa, people today,as we've talked about in past broadcasts 23:05 really have concerns--many of them with putting on weight. 23:08 Is this really as big of a 23:10 problem as many people think it is? 23:12 Definitely! We have an obesity 23:14 crisis in our country today. 23:16 And in light of that, 23:17 there's no shortage of diets, is there? 23:20 -No, there's not. 23:21 What we're really trying to do today is 23:24 look at something really practical 23:26 that someone could do in just a few minutes. 23:28 If they can catch an idea of, this 23:30 so called, "volumetrics concept" 23:34 we believe it can make a big difference. 23:36 What is this talk about "volumetrics"? 23:39 -Well that is from a study from Penn State University 23:43 and it taps into a concept that I believe 23:45 that the NEWSTART program here at 23:47 Weimar Center for Health and Education 23:50 have known for years. 23:51 And that is that if you eat foods that are 23:54 less in energy density, 23:57 you'll lose weight. 23:59 - Ok, so energy density 24:01 refers then to the amount of 24:03 calories in a given volume of food, is that right? 24:07 -Exactly. 24:08 So if you fill your plate up with these foods 24:10 you'll be eating more foods, 24:11 but eating less calories. 24:13 - Ok, so we don't have to say, 24:15 "Push yourself away from the table. Don't eat fast." 24:18 But we can say, "Eat the right foods. 24:20 Eat foods that fill you up, 24:22 but don't give you a lot of calories." 24:23 -Exactly. And what do you think those 24:25 foods that are low in energy density are? 24:28 - Well the first thing that comes to my mind, Hildelisa, 24:30 is iceberg lettuce. 24:32 I mean there's a lot of food there, 24:34 but not many calories, are there? 24:36 -Definitely. So that would be 24:38 plant based foods, like the fruits, 24:41 and the vegetables, and the whole grains. 24:44 So if you eat these foods you can eat more food 24:46 and less calories 24:48 Now what's more is that these plant based foods 24:51 are going to prevent chronic diseases 24:54 and they're going to keep your weight down. 24:58 Hildelisa, one of the 25:00 questions is that we're talking about 25:02 really getting these foods that have fewer calories in them 25:06 but couldn't someone just say, 25:08 "Can I eat less of the foods with more calories" 25:11 They say, "I like my hamburgers 25:12 and milkshakes and french fries." 25:14 -Well the principle is that 25:16 foods that are high in water content 25:19 and fiber content, 25:20 those are things that are going to fill you up so you eat less. 25:23 For example, fruits 25:25 they are 80-95% water 25:28 fruits and vegetables. 25:29 and hot grains are 85% water 25:32 and soups, they can be up to 95% water. 25:36 -So they fill you up, 25:37 but they don't give you a lot of calories. 25:39 -Right. Now do you suppose that 25:41 if you just drink a big glass of water 25:44 with your hamburger, will that work? 25:46 Well I'm not going to eat a hamburger, 25:47 Hildelisa, don't worry. 25:49 Tell us, is that a solution if someone wants to say, 25:52 "I'll have 80% water at my meal and eat the burger and fries?" 25:55 No, that wouldn't work. 25:56 The water has to be in the food in order to work. 26:00 -And why is that? 26:01 -Well because that is how you're going to fill up. 26:04 -Ok... 26:05 And the food is going to have less calories 26:08 whereas if you eat the hamburger 26:09 even though you have the glass of water, 26:11 you're going to eat all the calories in that hamburger, 26:15 for example. 26:16 Now let's just visualize what we're talking about 26:19 I have here 26:21 100 calories of rasins, or dried grapes, 26:24 it's about less than a quarter cup, 26:26 and about 100 calories of grapes, 26:29 a little less than two cups. 26:31 Now which one would you rather eat? 26:33 -Now are you telling me that there's the 26:34 same number of calories in each of those? 26:36 -Exactly. 26:38 -Well if I'm wanting to fill up with less calories, 26:41 I'm gonna choose the grapes. 26:43 Definitely, that is going to fill you up 26:46 and give you the same amount of calories, 26:48 but it's so easy to eat this amount of rasins 26:51 whereas the grapes will definitely fill you up. 26:55 So we're not saying the rasins aren't a healthy snack, 26:58 but they are a problem when it 27:00 comes to giving you lots of calories 27:02 in a small amount of volume. 27:03 -When you're trying to watch your weight, yes. 27:05 Now pasta and italian bread 27:09 have similar ingredients. 27:11 But if you think about it, 27:12 the pasta absorbs the water that it's cooked in, 27:15 so it's going to be half as energy dense 27:18 as the bread. 27:19 So that's the concept we're talking about. 27:22 The dryer the food, the more calories. 27:24 Hildelisa, this is great information 27:27 hopefully you've learned some 27:28 things today that can make a difference 27:30 as far as helping you trim a few of those 27:32 aditional pounds you're trying to get rid of. 27:34 I'm Dr. David DeRose letting you know 27:36 that if you want more information, 27:37 go to our website, 27:47 Well friends that's it for today 27:49 thank you for joining us, 27:51 thank you for those who have 27:52 partnered with us to make this show possible. 27:55 May God bless you abundantly. 27:57 In the meantime, those of you who need us, 28:00 pick up the phone and give us a call at |
Revised 2013-06-17