Participants: Ron Giannoni (Host), Norman Kraft
Series Code: NSN
Program Code: NSN000050
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00:23 Hi folks, and welcome to another edition of NEWSTART NOW.
00:27 In our studio today we have Norman Kraft, 00:30 and Norman has suffered some terrible losses in the past, 00:35 and we'd like you to watch this clip, if you would. 00:39 My weight has been increasing, 00:43 and my ability to walk has been decreasing, 00:48 so those were primarily the reasons why I came. 00:54 My weight is a big deal, 00:58 I do have a hernia 01:02 that has impeded my progressing 01:07 and is really a great detriment. 01:13 It's not possible to correct it surgically, 01:18 so my only option is to lose weight. 01:22 I want a reduction in weight, 01:25 and improvement in my ability to walk. 01:31 Welcome back friends, 01:33 and in our studio, Norman, how are you sir? 01:36 - Very well. 01:38 Well Norman, I got to tell you 01:39 from my perspective, you look like a different man. 01:43 - Thank you, I appreciate that. 01:46 Your cheeks seem to be rosier, you just seem to be... 01:48 you have more life in you. 01:50 Tell me, what has happened? 01:52 What has changed in this last 17 days? 01:55 Well I have lost a few pounds-- about seven, 02:02 and my cholesterol has gone from 198 to 137 02:07 which is fantastic. - That's phenomenal. 02:10 Right. 02:11 I still have to work on my glucose, 02:15 but now that I got some further direction 02:18 from Dr. DeRose, I should be able to reduce that too, 02:24 since I have to correct some habits 02:27 that have developed over the years 02:31 Of course my walking has improved 02:35 from barely a quarter mile, to two and a half miles a day, 02:40 Oh my. - which isn't a lot 02:42 but it is certainly more than I came with. 02:44 Well from a quarter of a mile to two miles 02:48 is significant in my mind. 02:50 Yes it is, I agree. 02:52 Good job! 02:53 Right, and I plan to continue it 02:56 which is very important 02:58 that I stay with the program after I leave here, 03:01 both in the vegan diet, and in the exercise. 03:08 Now why do you feel you need to continue this? 03:12 Well I need to lose more weight, 03:15 plus, I will be more fit. 03:19 I will be, hopefully 03:24 in better shape. 03:26 I do have my two grandkids to look forward to, 03:32 I want to be alive for them, 03:34 and I want them to be alive for me, 03:36 so we can spend time together. 03:40 Norman, at the beginning of the program 03:43 I stated that you had suffered a great loss 03:48 and I know that not long ago, your wife passed, 03:52 after some 45 or 50 years? 03:54 Yes, 45 years of marriage. 03:58 And my prayer is that through 04:03 this program and the renewing of your strength, 04:07 and some hope, that you can get stronger, 04:11 and be able to be with your 04:13 grandchildren and play with them as we've shared. 04:18 Tell us about the program as you've been here, 04:22 I know you've been through hydro-therapy. 04:25 What was your favorite part of this program? 04:28 Well I liked the hydro-therapy, 04:31 I do like the vegan food, 04:35 and the improvement in walking 04:40 is really a big help to me, 04:43 I can breath easier. 04:48 I can enjoy life better. 04:50 So this is tremendous progress in the right direction. 04:56 Now before you came on set here, 05:00 you were visiting with Dr. DeRose, that's your doctor? 05:02 - That is correct. 05:04 Now you spent about an hour with him. 05:06 Yes I did. 05:07 Now do you find this unusual? 05:10 Absolutely, my family physician 05:14 I'm lucky to spend 15 minutes with him twice a year! 05:19 So this is tremendous personal attention, 05:25 and attention to every detail 05:28 of my... shall we say 05:32 lack of health, 05:34 so we can address it successfully 05:38 Now we do have a crew of wonderful doctors here, 05:41 we have Dr. Ing, who is the medical director, 05:45 Dr. DeRose just joined us recently, 05:47 in the last two months I believe, 05:51 and then Dr. Lukens. 05:53 And so you're following the advice of Dr. DeRose, 05:57 you're getting healthier, 05:58 your cholesterol levels have dropped. 06:00 - Right. 06:01 Your walking, again I think that's 06:03 phenomenal that you're able to walk that far. 06:06 Tell us about the episode you had, 06:11 where your intestines started to come through your stomach wall. 06:14 I had an operation 35 years ago 06:17 for gall bladder, and well they took my appendix out too. 06:23 Unfortunately the stitches 06:25 didn't hold and a hernia resulted 06:27 and then my stomach migrated into the area of the hernia. 06:35 And this past summer I talked to a surgeon, 06:39 and after running tests on me, he advised against an operation. 06:45 So... 06:46 - So my only choice is to lose weight and exercise. 06:50 How many pounds do you have to lose? 06:52 I lost seven pounds, but I think it's just the beginning, 06:56 This program here is a 06:58 prelude to many more pounds to lose. 07:02 Now you have family that have come through the program. 07:05 Right, 07:07 I had a niece and her husband, 07:10 who were extremely successful, 07:13 the husband lost about 20-some pounds, 07:17 and she has really come a long way 07:20 from where she was to today's situation. 07:25 I know and I remember Dian very well. 07:28 She's going to be here today I understand. 07:31 She will be here tonight at our banquet, 07:33 and they will pick me up 07:35 and take me to their home, 07:37 and I'll spend some time with them. 07:40 So tell us, tell the viewers now, 07:43 what are you going to do from this day forward? 07:45 Obviously you're leaving tonight or tomorrow morning... 07:48 Well I'm leaving tomorrow for San Jose, 07:53 where I'll spend the next four days with 07:56 my daughter and husband and grand-kids. 07:59 And I am leaving Tuesday to go back home. 08:04 Too? - Missouri. 08:07 And I will... 08:10 attempt to sell my house, and liquidate my belongings, 08:14 and move over to San Jose. 08:16 Ok, do you feel you have the tools 08:20 to continue on with this program? 08:22 Absolutely, I think that 08:25 what the program did for me was phenomenal, 08:29 and I now know which way to go to improve my health. 08:35 Amen. 08:37 What was your favorite part of the program? 08:42 I would say I liked the hydrotherapy, 08:46 it was excellent, something that... 08:48 - Everybody seems to like the hydro-therapy! 08:52 but very enjoyable, I hadn't had sauna before, 08:56 and now I enjoy it very much. 08:58 So for the viewers, the hydro-therapy 09:02 is along with the massage therapy, 09:05 where we'll take guests, 09:08 in this case Norman, 09:10 he experienced several new 09:13 visits to the massage and 09:17 the hydro being water therapy, 09:19 where we do contrasting showers, 09:21 and you even had the sauna this trip right? 09:24 Right. 09:25 He likes the sauna! 09:27 I love that sauna, it's so warm in there. 09:29 - So do I. 09:30 Incidentally, today it's snowing outside 09:33 so the sauna would be a nice treat! 09:35 - Yes, nice treat. 09:37 Well Norman, 09:40 I'm going to just pray that everything works out for you, 09:46 I want to keep in contact with you, 09:48 I know Dr. DeRose will. 09:50 - Right. 09:51 Any last comments for our viewers? 09:54 I enjoyed very much this experience, 09:57 and I could recommend it 09:58 to anyone who has any need to improve themselves. 10:03 Great. 10:05 Thank you so much for joining us. 10:07 Thank you for having me. 10:08 God Bless you. - Thank you. 10:10 And thank you folks, I hope you enjoyed this program, 10:14 and don't go away because we're going to have 10:17 Dr. DeRose with us in just a moment. 10:21 Well, you've done very well. 10:29 Do you have diabetes, 10:31 heart disease, high blood pressure, 10:33 or do you weigh too much? 10:35 Hi, my name is Dr. Ing, and I'd like to tell you 10:38 about our 18-day NEWSTART lifestyle program. 10:42 It includes a comprehensive medical 10:44 evaluation with laboratory studies and an 10:46 exercise stress test, 10:48 physician consultations, 10:51 culinary school, 10:52 and an opportunity to walk on beautiful 10:55 trails in the foothills of the Sierras. 10:59 Your health is one of the most 11:01 important things that you have. Don't wait. 11:03 Give us a call. 11:08 Or visit our website. 11:27 Welcome back friends, and as I promised-- 11:30 Dr. David DeRose, how are you Doctor? 11:32 Hey, great, good to be with you Ron. 11:33 It's great to see you! 11:35 It's great to be here at Weimar, 11:36 and it's great to see what the Lord's been doing 11:38 just in the couple of months that I've been here. 11:40 Yes, and tell us, tell the 11:42 viewers Doctor where you're from. 11:43 I know a lot of people out there 11:46 know Dr. DeRose, but maybe you can tell 11:48 us a little bit about your background. 11:50 Well a lot of people know me because I've 11:52 traveled around a lot. 11:53 I've worked with a number of 11:55 lifestyle centers over the years, 11:57 I've done a number of programs with 3ABN. 12:00 And most recently I've been running a medical 12:05 health related consulting practice, 12:07 doing a lot of health media, health education. 12:10 But also pastoring half time in northern New England, and Maine, 12:14 and the Lord has redirected me back 12:16 to get involved in clinical medicine 12:18 as well as continuing my 12:20 teaching and media work here at Weimar. 12:22 Well we're going to have to find a church 12:24 nearby so you can pastor a little bit too! 12:27 We don't want you to get lonely! 12:28 Ok, well we'll see how the Lord orchestrates that. 12:30 Right now I've been having plenty of opportunities 12:33 to minister, whether it's in the NEWSTART program, 12:36 we have the privilege of working with our guests, 12:39 we don't push things on them, 12:40 but we try to be sensitive to their spiritual needs. 12:43 It's really much more of a pastoral work if you will, 12:46 than typical medical practice, 12:48 because we're interested in the whole person, 12:50 their spiritual needs, 12:52 We're, as physicians, 12:54 ministering on that level as well as working with our 12:57 chaplain and others who have a focus on that level of ministry. 13:01 Well we're so glad that you're here, 13:02 and that you've chosen to be here 13:04 at Weimar, especially our NEWSTART program, 13:07 I know the college students speak very highly of you. 13:11 Right now I want to talk about Norman, 13:13 Stormin Norman! 13:15 When I first met Norm, 13:18 as you probably are aware, 13:19 he seemed very down, and very depressed. 13:22 And he shared with me, off camera, 13:25 that his loss of his wife of 45 years 13:29 just hurt him very deeply. 13:31 But I see a change, 13:33 and I know a lot of that, thank God, 13:37 that spiritualness that comes from our doctors 13:42 and our chaplain, tell us a little from 13:44 your perspective Doctor, what you saw happen? 13:46 You know, we realize today when 13:48 it comes to mental health issues, 13:50 whether a person has a frank mental health disorder, 13:53 or whether their just going through some 13:54 of the normal struggles we have in life, 13:57 Norman didn't come... he didn't tell me 13:59 he came to deal specifically with any of 14:01 those issues although he shared with me 14:03 as he shared on camera in the last segment 14:05 about that significant loss that he had. 14:08 But what we know is, where in the past many 14:10 health professionals would say, Ok that's your mind, 14:13 we've got to deal with your mind, 14:15 You need counseling, 14:16 you need to go to a grief recovery class. 14:19 And I'm not minimizing 14:20 how God has used those things, even among people that 14:23 may not have acknowledged God's leadership in the process. 14:27 But at the same time, we're 14:28 realizing today Ron that we're whole people 14:31 and that when you start addressing your diet, 14:33 when you start addressing your exercise habits, 14:36 in addition to the spiritual and the mental things 14:39 you just have this powerful 14:41 combination that moves people in quantum leaps 14:44 really as far as improvement. 14:46 Dr. Nedley has shown this with his depression recovery program. 14:49 So it's this comprehensive approach, 14:51 and this is what we're trying to do at Weimar. 14:53 So everyone that comes through 14:55 many people say, Look I'm here to lose weight, 14:58 or, I'm here for my diabetes, 14:59 or I'm here for my heart disease, 15:02 but regardless of what they're dealing with, 15:04 all of us have mental, spiritual issues. 15:07 This is not something again that we push on people, 15:10 but when we deal with the whole 15:11 person often these things come out, 15:13 and even if the person doesn't ever volunteer anything, 15:16 we find as they get on that better lifestyle, 15:19 they get all these tremendous benefits on a mental 15:21 and spiritual level, as well as the physical level. 15:24 In other words, 15:26 What I just heard you say is that 15:28 sometimes people don't even know their depressed, 15:30 and they come to our program, 15:33 and before you know it, we see them 15:34 come out of this shell, if you will. 15:36 And I saw that in Norman, and I was so 15:40 moved by it, because I felt for him, 15:43 you know how we do. 15:45 So, tell us, 15:47 as a doctor, 15:49 what do you look for when you interview these guests, 15:53 or patients as you call them? 15:55 Well we do a very comprehensive interview process, 15:58 or history as we call it in the medical field. 16:02 We have people complete a very detailed database. 16:05 Is that part of the physical? What we know as the physical? 16:09 Well, normally if someone comes in for a physical to a doctor, 16:14 a doctor who is doing a really comprehensive 16:16 physical will also do a comprehensive history. 16:19 And when I was in medical 16:20 school they shared the dictum with us 16:22 that about 90 percent of diagnoses 16:24 are actually made in the history, 16:26 not in the physical. 16:28 So when you hear the patient's story, 16:29 when you hear about their background. 16:31 And when I speak about a comprehensive history, 16:35 here at Weimar we actually do a spiritual history as well. 16:38 And by the way, this is not something that's 16:40 happening in just Christian establishments. 16:42 In the medical field as a whole, we're realizing more and more 16:46 that we've been negligent in looking at 16:48 various components of someone's medical history. 16:51 Spiritual history is very important, 16:52 so we include a spiritual history, 16:54 a mental health history 16:55 so a person will complete all this before coming to Weimar. 16:59 The physicians will review that, 17:01 and then when we sit with the individual patient 17:03 we will discuss areas with them 17:05 based on the responses they gave us. 17:08 So we get a very complete idea of 17:09 what's happened throughout their life 17:11 as far as medical diagnoses as far as surgeries, 17:14 but also as far as significant life events, 17:17 losses, stresses, things of that nature. 17:20 Now I want to address the hour 17:24 that you spent with him prior to him coming on the program. 17:30 I find that that is unusual. Is it unusual here at 17:33 Weimar that doctors spend an hour... 17:35 I mean at one time? 17:37 Well the philosophy we have here is really 17:39 taking the time with our patients that they need. 17:42 And if we have a patient scheduled for an hour block, 17:45 we spend an hour with them. 17:47 We typically schedule our initial visits for an hour. 17:51 Subsequent visits we schedule for a half hour. 17:54 So if a person needs more than that half hour time, 17:57 if they have flexibility in their schedule, 17:59 and I in mine, we can just continue the visit right then. 18:02 If we're scheduled more tightly, 18:04 we'll ask the person to come back. 18:06 I'll say, I know we didn't finish this, 18:08 let me reconnect with you. 18:10 So the focus is really unlike 18:12 commercialized medicine, which today it's how many people 18:15 you can get through the door and out and generate that bill. 18:19 Here it's really Jesus' model of ministry, 18:22 where he takes the time that people need, 18:24 if a person needs more time they have that, 18:26 If a person doesn't need the time, 18:28 we don't seatbelt them into the chair 18:30 and say, You got to be here for an hour 18:32 because this is what we do here at Weimar! 18:34 If they've got a ten minute concern, 18:35 and their doing well 18:37 we might go for a walk with them during that time. 18:40 And by the way, I might add that we don't charge guests 18:44 if they stay an extra half hour or hour. 18:47 you don't have the nurse outside handing 18:50 them a bill as they walk back to their door! 18:53 It is, it's a wonderful system because of the package price, 18:56 so someone knows when they come what the expense is. 18:59 And all the medical visits are included in that, 19:01 whether I spend an hour everyday with a patient, 19:04 or whether it's ten minutes every other day. 19:06 - Yes. 19:08 Now in regards to any 19:09 medications that Norman was taking, 19:12 was he able to come off any of these? 19:14 Or had he reduced medication? 19:17 How do you go about that? That's another question 19:20 guests ask, actually I receive in phone calls. 19:24 How do we take people off of medication? 19:26 You don't say, Stop... 19:29 Well it's an interesting dynamic, 19:30 those of us who like 19:32 myself have worked in 19:33 lifestyle medicine for many years, 19:35 I mean although I'm new here to Weimar as I mentioned earlier, 19:38 I've worked in these kind of 19:39 programs off and on for some 25 years. 19:42 So what we know, is that lifestyle is so powerful 19:46 when it comes to blood pressure, 19:47 when it comes to blood sugar, when it comes to cholesterol, 19:50 that some of those drugs that a person is using, 19:53 if we don't stop them, if we're not very vigilant, 19:56 they'll get in trouble early on. 19:58 Now cholesterol medications 20:00 are not dangerous if we don't stop them quick enough. 20:02 I mean they'll just have a very low cholesterol. 20:05 But to have a very very low blood 20:07 pressure is something that can kill you! 20:10 So when someone is on blood pressure medicines we 20:12 have to monitor their blood pressure carefully... 20:15 - So you reduce the medication. - 20:16 Exactly, and we reduce the medications. Many people today 20:19 are on combination drugs for blood pressure. 20:22 They may think they're just taking a single 20:24 medication but it's actually one or it's actually 20:27 a combination of maybe two 20:29 sometimes three medications, often two, 20:31 that are together, so we have to split 20:33 those out sometimes, stop one of them, 20:36 and start them on another it's by 20:37 giving them another prescription. 20:39 It's the same with blood sugar. 20:41 Many of the blood sugar pills today, 20:42 although someone thinks they're just taking one drug 20:44 they may be taking a 20:46 combination pill that has two drugs. 20:47 And one of those drugs is very dangerous 20:50 as far as dangerously lowering blood sugar 20:52 if we don't make adjustments. 20:53 So we have to separate the drugs, 20:55 and then maybe stop one, 20:57 and then continue the other or gradually decrease it. 21:00 Well I find that very interesting. 21:02 In my case I was taking 21:04 two blood pressure medications, 21:06 one was to make sure that the 21:08 first one didn't ruin my kidneys. 21:11 So in closing do you have any last minute thoughts? 21:15 I guess what I would say is that the 21:16 Weimar program is designed for individuals. 21:19 We would love to help you and share this very 21:21 personalized approach modeled after Jesus' ministry. 21:25 Dr. DeRose, thank you for joining us on our set. 21:28 And thank you folks, don't go away 21:30 we got a tip for you in just a second. 21:46 Hello and welcome to NEWSTART at HOME, 21:48 I'm your host Don Mackintosh, 21:49 and today we're delighted to have you with us, 21:51 but we're also delighted to have Dr. David DeRose. 21:54 He's a specialist in internal medicine, 21:56 and, welcome to the program. 21:58 Great to be with you Don. 22:00 And today we're going to be talking about water. 22:03 Why is it that we should be interested in water? 22:05 Where should we get it? When should we get it? 22:07 And all those things. 22:09 I mean for a lot of people water 22:10 sounds like a very mundane subject. 22:12 I mean it's all around us, it comes out of the sky! 22:15 Really! I mean people say water! 22:19 But when I was a medical student, 22:21 nobody was really catching on to the values of water. 22:25 Many of my classmates kind of made fun of me 22:28 because I actually used to carry a water bottle with me. 22:31 I mean it was radical! 22:33 Now lots of people carry water bottles. 22:34 Sure, because we're starting to recognize that 22:36 this is something that's got profound health benefits. 22:39 Don, I don't need to review for today our viewers 22:43 some of the heart protective benefits of water. 22:46 I think many people have heard that 22:48 ground breaking research that 22:49 came out of Loma Linda University 22:51 oh probably about ten years ago now, 22:53 where they actually found that those who drank more water, 22:56 actually had substantially less heart disease. 22:59 Yes, right. So what are we going to talk 23:01 about since we're not going to cover that? 23:03 We're going to talk about water and weight reduction. 23:07 Weight reduction! I've always 23:08 heard that it increases your weight. 23:11 Well sure, water has weight, 23:13 water weighs about a pound for about a pint of water. 23:16 So if I'm standing on the scale, 23:18 I weight myself, then I 23:20 quickly chug down two pints of water, 23:21 I'll weigh about two pints more. 23:24 But your body doesn't just hold onto all that water. 23:27 No it gets rid of it. 23:28 It gets rid of it, and there's 23:29 some fascinating things that happen 23:31 when you drink more pure water. 23:33 First of all, pure water has no sodium in it. 23:36 So what do you mean pure water? Where would I get that? 23:39 You can get it from a spring, 23:40 especially if it has no sodium in it. 23:42 You can get it from your faucet, 23:45 especially if you use reverse osmosis, 23:48 if you have a water softener, because if you have a 23:51 water softener that's going to be putting salt into the water 23:54 Well salt follows water, or water follows salt, 23:56 and if you don't have that then you lose weight. 23:59 Actually that's part of it, you're exactly right. 24:01 When you drink more water what happens 24:03 is first of all you tank up your system, 24:05 so if you're dehydrated which many Americans are, 24:08 they're walking around not at optimal 24:10 brain functioning because they're dehydrated. 24:14 They may tend to get a little light headed when they stand up, 24:17 a number of problems can occur with lack of water intake. 24:20 Once you get hydrated though, 24:22 the excess water you take in actually is 24:24 processed through the kidneys, and comes out. 24:27 So then that causes you to lose weight? 24:29 Or what is it that causes you to lose weight. 24:31 What it does is, the way the Lord has designed our kidneys, 24:35 is every time we void water, 24:38 we actually lose some sodium with it. 24:40 - Ok. 24:41 And so it actually takes sodium out of the body, 24:44 pulls more water with it. 24:45 So for a person that has edema, swelling of the legs, 24:48 provided they don't have... - Heart disease. 24:50 right heart disease or kidney failure, stuff like that. 24:53 If they don't have those problems, 24:55 just garden variety edema, 24:56 drinking more water can actually decrease 24:59 the problems with fluid build-up because 25:01 it pulls excess water out of the system. 25:03 - Ok. 25:05 So this is one way that water drinking can help 25:06 someone lose some weight if they're retaining fluid. 25:10 Ok, so we know why, another 25:11 reason why-- to help us lose weight. 25:13 When should we be drinking water? 25:14 Well don't jump ahead on too much! 25:17 Because you've got something else about the water? 25:19 Yes, because drinking water, some of the latest research, 25:21 and I've got a study right here Don, 25:23 it's actually showing us that when 25:25 you drink more water, it stimulates 25:28 metabolic receptors in the body 25:31 that actually raises 25:34 body processes, raises metabolism. 25:36 So it thinks you're going to get more, 25:38 but you don't get it, 25:39 you just got the water and it starts burning more off. 25:41 You burn more calories. 25:42 So water drinking is very positive, 25:44 even room temperature water, doesn't have to be cold, 25:46 doesn't have to be warmed up. 25:48 So, it makes your metabolism go up, 25:50 what about a diabetic? 25:51 is that going to be a problem? 25:53 Actually typically not, this would be 25:55 beneficial for the diabetic as well. 25:56 So it tends to ensure that you don't over-eat when 25:58 you're well hydrated, 26:00 when you come to sit at the meal, 26:01 it also helps you trim down some pounds. 26:02 - We got about 40 seconds left. When should we drink this water? 26:06 Water is best drunk between meals, 26:08 not with meals, 26:09 that tends to interfere with the digestive process, 26:13 and especially if you have reflux you'll get into problems. 26:15 Amount of water to drink? 26:17 That was on your mind next wasn't it? 26:19 - Yes - Ok! 26:20 We recommend one ounce 26:23 for every two pounds of weight. 26:25 as a general rule of thumb. 26:27 You weight 200 pounds, drink 100 ounces a day. 26:30 We've been talking with Dr. David DeRose, 26:32 We've had some good news about water, 26:34 it can actually help you lose weight, 26:36 it does a lot of other great things as well. 26:38 We're glad you've joined us. 26:39 If you want more information, go to: 26:42 We're glad you joined us as well Dr. DeRose. 26:44 - Thank you. 26:45 Thanks and we'll see you again next time. 26:54 Modern views of evolution stem all the way 26:56 back to theories developed in the mid 1800s. 27:00 Out of the same time period came ideas that shape 27:03 our educational system today. 27:06 The common school movement for example, 27:08 saw schools more like a factory, 27:10 with students blindly memorizing 27:12 instruction rather than thinking for themselves. 27:15 Their curriculum was rigid and theoretical, 27:18 instead of being flexible and practical, 27:21 It was designed to conform the individual 27:23 into a specific ideological mold, 27:26 that fit the needs of a old industrial era, long since past. 27:32 Just like our view of creation in six literal days, 27:35 we believe the Bible contains an educational blueprint 27:39 radically different from the one we see now. 27:55 Well friends, that's it for today. 27:57 Thank you for joining us. 27:58 Pick up the phone and give us a call at: 28:04 God Bless you. |
Revised 2013-06-17