This is 3ABN Now with
John and Rosemary Malkiewycz.
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Hello and welcome
to our program today.
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We're really glad
that you have joined us
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for another 3ABN Now.
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We have some very
special guests today
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who are coming to us from
the other side of the world
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via Skype. And we really
thank God for this technology,
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don't we? Because
it makes us accessible
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or gives us
guests who are accessible
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from all around the world.
And it really makes it enjoyable
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because we can talk
about all different topics
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with different people.
And today we have with us
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Pr. James and Rise Rafferty.
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Welcome to 3ABN Australia!
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Good to be here. Thank you.
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Now we've had James as
a guest in our home before
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a few years ago, and this is the
first time we've actually met
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Rise so it's
really good to meet you.
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Thank you so much. Glad
we can be in your home today.
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It's good to be with
you John and Rosemary,
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really good. So
they're from California.
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We're going to speak
on a very important topic
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and it's about relationships.
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So if you are
interested in relationships...
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maybe you are having
difficulties or you know someone
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who is, I'm sure that
today you will have some answers
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that will help you in how to
sort out these relationships,
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these dysfunctional
things that are happening.
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So stay tuned because
we have some really good
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information from the Rafferty's.
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Now John, you
have a Bible verse?
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I've got a Bible text
that James has chosen.
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It's found in II Corinthians
chapter 5 and verse 18.
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And I would encourage you that
take time to read your Bible
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because Jesus has an answer
for a lot of those relationship
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questions that you may have.
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But you've gotta
take time to read.
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James has chosen
this text and it says:
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"And all things are of God
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who hath
reconciled us to Himself
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by Jesus Christ and
hath given to us the ministry
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of reconciliation. " Now
James, that's a very important
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text, so do you want to
enlarge upon that for us?
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Yeah, sure. So
the text was chosen
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because we're
talking about relationships
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and relationships
are under attack today.
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And one of the ways that
we can find relationships
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or find
reconciliation in relationships
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is to look at our
relationship with God.
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Once we have a
relationship with God
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we're going to have the power
and the grace, the strength,
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the courage, the wisdom
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to navigate
earthly relationships.
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So I like to say it this way:
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once we have our
vertical relationship on track
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then we can navigate
our horizontal relationships
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with human beings.
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That's right. Very, very true.
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Now Rise, you've chosen
I Corinthians 10 verse 13
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which I'm going to
read. And the Bible says:
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"There hath no
temptation taken you
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but such as is common to man.
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But God is faithful
who will not suffer you
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to be tempted
above that you are able
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but will with the temptation
also, make a way to escape
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that you may be
able to bear it. "
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So why have you
chosen that particular verse?
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Well, like James said
relationships are under attack.
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And because they're under attack
and we are weak human beings
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there are times when
we succumb, we weaken
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and we experience
relational failure.
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We experience temptation.
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And there are times
when we feel all alone
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and isolated in our temptation
and we dare not breathe it
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to anyone... even to God.
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And yet we need to remember
that there's no temptation
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but that is common,
right? We're all human beings
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and so that's what gives
me the courage even today
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to come and sit here before
you: to know that there are...
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I have brothers and
sisters who are struggling
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maybe with some things
that I have struggled with.
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And at the same time, my
experience with my own failures
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has led me to be so
convinced that God is faithful
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in spite of that.
And His faithfulness
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toward me has
enabled me to overcome
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and shown me a way of escape.
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And we're just hoping
and praying that this program
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today will be a
marker, an avenue
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helping people to
see what that way is.
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Excellent! That's really good.
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Now, James, we want to
know a little bit about your
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background so any viewers
who don't know who you both are
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will be able to get a little
bit of an idea of who you are.
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Sure. So I was
raised in England.
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I was born in the
states but raised in England.
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My mom is Irish.
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And she raised us there for
the first part of our lives.
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So about 1 years old till I
was 11 I was raised in England
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in a Catholic home. So I
was raised Roman Catholic.
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Again, my mom is Irish.
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We moved to the
states when I was 11.
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My sister and I were
11 'cause we are twins.
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And we moved from place to
place. We lived in a couple
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different places and ended up
landing in Spokane, Washington.
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And that's where
at 21 years of age
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I surrendered my
heart to the Lord
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and asked Jesus Christ
to be my personal Savior.
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And in doing that I
found myself going to
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different churches: Calvary
Chapel, Pentecostal church.
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Just kind of hungry
for the Word of God.
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And eventually my sister con-
nected with the Adventist church
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which I thought, of
course, was kind of like a cult.
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You know, they go to church
on the wrong day: Saturday.
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They don't eat meat.
They just have these weird
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you know things that they do.
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And so I started
studying with Adventists
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to get my sister out
of the Adventist church.
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And my mom was helping me.
I had a couple other people
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that were helping me.
But despite the influence of
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my mother and the pastor
of the Calvary Chapel church
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and some friends that were
going to the Pentecostal church
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the Bible was able to
actually, overrule all of that
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and the Word of
God brought me in
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to the Adventist church.
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Even though my motives and
everything else was against it
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the Word of God
was more powerful.
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And that's been the
testimony of my life:
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that the Word of God is powerful
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and it can transform
us and it can re-direct us
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and it can change our motives
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and it can give us new
life and new direction.
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So that basically led
me into ministry. I almost
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immediately
started doing Bible studies
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and for the last 37 years
I've been involved in full-time
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ministry. And I'm
now working with 3ABN
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in the U.S. as Director
of Discipleship Ministry.
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Hmm! And it's really
great to know that you are part
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of the 3ABN family together
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because it's a great relation-
ship within that family.
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We ARE family.
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Amen. So it's fantastic!
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Rise, give us some
of your background.
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So I was born and raised
in Loma Linda, California,
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which is kind of
an Adventist hub.
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And so there were so many
blessings that I experienced
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being born and raised there.
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Loma Linda is a blue zone and
so there is a lot of emphasis
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on wholeness, on health.
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We have a medical school there,
dental school. Huge hospital
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etc. so I was
raised under that umbrella.
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Probably took it for granted.
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Going to church every week
definitely was a cultural thing.
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Wasn't always a believer
in terms of an experiential
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you know faith...
walking with Christ.
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But God thankfully woke
me up and touched my heart
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as a young college
student. And from that point on
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I have been so grateful
for His presence in my life.
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He led me to a book early
on in my Christian experience.
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Several books. I love to
read, and just like James
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the Word has been a
powerful, formative influence
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in shaping the
direction of my life.
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And one of the books I read
was called Healthy, Happy, Holy.
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And it laid a foundation for
what I still so fully believe in
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and that is that that
was God's ultimate desire
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and that those three aspects:
healthy, happiness, holiness
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they're intertwined.
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We kind of look at
holiness as something that
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you know out there,
esoteric, not tangible or fun.
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But in reality that
full wholeness picture
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yeah, just for
me is so beautiful
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and I believe that it's
what the world needs. Amen.
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Hmm. So you are a
health professional?
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Yes. I'm a registered dietitian
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and I enjoy working
one-on-one with patients.
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I do classes; I love
teaching classes. I have done
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CHIP classes before
which I thoroughly enjoyed.
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And now working
part-time with 3ABN
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I have the privilege
of doing health education
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and promotion through media.
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Excellent... that's excellent!
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I just want to
know how you two met.
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Come from different places.
Tell us a little bit about that.
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Well, it's an interesting story.
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Actually, I was her teacher
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so when we
started doing ministry
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we had a little
two-week school that we did
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in addition to our Camp
Meetings and other seminars.
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And the school is called
Steadfast Bible Study School.
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And Rise attended
that with her mom.
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And my life had been so
transformed by the Bible
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and learning how
to study the Bible
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that I would teach that
class: How to Study the Bible.
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And I would teach
people how to compare scripture
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with scripture and
use a Strong's Concordance
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and dig into the Greek
and the Hebrew and prophecy.
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And so Rise was my student.
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Now she was there
with another guy and so
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I was thinking
she had a boyfriend.
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And I was looking to
get married at that time.
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I thought God
wanted me to be married.
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But I wasn't looking at Rise.
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But my associate was, and
he got all the information
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on Rise. And then
providentially we had a talk
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and he basically told
me: "This is going to be
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your future wife and you
need to pursue her earnestly. "
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Which I did!
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And Rise was really amazed.
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But it was kind of
an answer to her prayer
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and she can tell you
a little bit about that.
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A) I was not with another
guy... I was with my mom.
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But there was a guy there
at the school that I had gone
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to school with. He actually had
told me about this Bible School.
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He was my friend
and we did hang out.
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Just wanted to make
that little clarification.
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So... but... yeah...
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To make a long story short
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God really convicted me
in my Christian experience
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actually there at the
school about the way I had been
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engaging in relationships
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and that that was not
His perfect will for me.
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That the worldly way of
dating is one thing and He had
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something better. And I was
really convicted about that.
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It was very difficult for me to
surrender that part of my life
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to Him but I did.
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And some of the words
that I remember praying
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were: "Lord, I'm
willing to surrender this to You
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and not engage any more
in this worldly way of dating
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that I've been
doing for however long.
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And the next person
that You bring into my life
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I will know 'cause it's
going to be with the intention
00:12:06.25\00:12:09.26
for marriage. But will You
design the relationship to be
00:12:09.46\00:12:12.19
directed and Your
ultimate purpose for this. "
00:12:12.39\00:12:14.96
And so when James wrote to me
00:12:15.16\00:12:16.80
it was very
unnerving but at the same time
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I was earnestly praying
for God's will in my life
00:12:20.37\00:12:23.20
and I had just prayed this
prayer. And so some of the words
00:12:23.41\00:12:26.17
he used like: "I'm
lining up with God's will
00:12:26.37\00:12:28.14
for us to be married. "
He was stating his intention.
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He wasn't saying "I
want you to marry me. "
00:12:31.18\00:12:32.75
I wrote him back and I
said: "I don't even know you. "
00:12:32.95\00:12:34.95
You know, type of thing?
00:12:35.15\00:12:36.48
But in spite of that, God's
blessing on the intentionality
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and I loved that. I was like:
"Wow, that took a lot of guts
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for him to be so intentional
with me from the get-go
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so I would know where he...
what his intentions were. "
00:12:49.83\00:12:53.74
I had a similar thing.
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When John first rang
me the very first time
00:12:56.97\00:13:01.61
we spoke basically on the phone.
00:13:01.81\00:13:04.18
We'd only met a number
of months before one time.
00:13:04.38\00:13:07.58
And he phoned me late one night
00:13:08.78\00:13:12.55
Just when I was coming
in the door from being out
00:13:12.75\00:13:14.52
the phone was ringing.
00:13:14.72\00:13:16.09
I answered the phone and I
thought he was asking me...
00:13:16.49\00:13:20.03
He said: "I don't
know how to say this. "
00:13:20.23\00:13:22.06
And I'm thinking:
"Well just ask me! "
00:13:22.26\00:13:24.50
Because I had a
calendar with all these singing
00:13:24.70\00:13:28.37
appointments on it, OK?
00:13:28.57\00:13:31.97
And I thought:
"Yeah, well which church?
00:13:32.17\00:13:33.91
What time? What
Sabbath? " You know?
00:13:34.11\00:13:36.04
And he said: "I'm by
myself with my two children
00:13:36.44\00:13:39.28
and I know you're by
yourself with two children.
00:13:39.48\00:13:41.18
Maybe we can get
together some time? "
00:13:41.38\00:13:42.88
And I'm going: "What? "
00:13:43.08\00:13:44.42
And then he said:
00:13:44.59\00:13:46.05
"If God called you to the
mission field, would you go? "
00:13:46.25\00:13:51.03
And I had just
been at a friend's place
00:13:51.43\00:13:54.46
doing some music, and he
was going to South Africa
00:13:54.66\00:13:57.07
to sing at the Camp
Meeting there and he said:
00:13:57.27\00:13:59.07
"You guys should all come too. "
00:13:59.27\00:14:00.60
And I said: "Oh,
that would be fantastic!
00:14:00.64\00:14:01.97
I always wanted
to go to Africa. "
00:14:02.00\00:14:03.34
And I said: "Well, I was
just having this conversation
00:14:03.37\00:14:06.68
with this friend of
mine, and going to South Africa
00:14:06.88\00:14:09.88
and things. I'd love
to go and do something
00:14:10.08\00:14:12.75
for God
overseas. " And John said:
00:14:12.95\00:14:14.28
"Well, I might
be called to Uganda
00:14:14.32\00:14:18.49
or somewhere in Africa. "
And he said: "Would that do? "
00:14:18.69\00:14:21.62
And I'm going:
"Who is this guy? "
00:14:21.92\00:14:24.23
I don't know him and he's
asking me if I'd go with him
00:14:24.43\00:14:27.60
to some place as a missionary?
00:14:27.76\00:14:30.37
So it was a similar...
It worked! It worked! Yes.
00:14:30.57\00:14:33.87
And we've been
together... Yeah, we had our...
00:14:34.50\00:14:37.17
we've had our
29th anniversary now.
00:14:37.37\00:14:39.47
By the way, how long
have you been married?
00:14:40.41\00:14:42.24
And how many
children do you have?
00:14:42.44\00:14:43.78
We've been married for
32 years this September
00:14:46.28\00:14:49.48
and we have two adult
children, a girl and a boy.
00:14:49.68\00:14:52.32
Hmm... very
good. Umm... excellent.
00:14:52.52\00:14:56.06
I'm just amazed that there
was just this little similarity
00:14:56.93\00:14:59.73
going on there.
00:14:59.93\00:15:01.36
Now we're talking about healthy
home relationships today.
00:15:01.56\00:15:06.77
Would you like to
start taking us through that?
00:15:06.97\00:15:09.27
Well basically what
we learned as Christians
00:15:10.37\00:15:15.14
is that the Bible and religion
00:15:15.34\00:15:18.78
is really all
about relationship.
00:15:18.98\00:15:21.18
You go all the way
back to the Garden of Eden
00:15:21.38\00:15:23.08
and you find that God had
this relationship with Adam
00:15:23.28\00:15:27.56
and Eve and He would meet with
them in the cool of the evening.
00:15:27.76\00:15:29.79
Every day He would
come and meet with them.
00:15:29.99\00:15:31.33
And then He had a
special day. We understand that
00:15:31.39\00:15:33.70
to be the seventh-day
Sabbath that was set aside
00:15:33.90\00:15:37.00
and God spent the whole day with
Adam and Eve on the Sabbath.
00:15:37.20\00:15:40.30
It was a special time
of worship and engagement.
00:15:40.50\00:15:43.37
And that relationship was
the foundation of our destiny,
00:15:43.57\00:15:48.34
of the image in
which we were created.
00:15:48.54\00:15:50.78
We were created
as relational beings.
00:15:50.98\00:15:53.92
And so relationship is
foundation and therefore
00:15:54.12\00:15:57.92
it has been attacked by Satan.
00:15:58.12\00:15:59.95
Satan has attacked first of
all the relationship with God
00:16:00.16\00:16:03.56
and secondly our
relationship with one another.
00:16:03.76\00:16:06.23
Immediately after
Adam and Eve sinned
00:16:07.00\00:16:09.16
their relationship broke apart.
00:16:09.36\00:16:11.23
You know, Adam
started blaming Eve;
00:16:11.43\00:16:14.34
Eve started blaming the serpent.
00:16:14.54\00:16:15.87
They were blaming each other...
they were even blaming God.
00:16:15.90\00:16:17.71
And so we find in the Bible
in a couple key verses here
00:16:17.91\00:16:21.14
that God... the
restoration of humanity
00:16:21.34\00:16:24.48
is the restoration of
relationship with God.
00:16:24.68\00:16:27.88
Jesus says in John 17 verse 3
00:16:28.08\00:16:30.49
"This is life eternal:
00:16:30.69\00:16:32.15
that they might know
Thee - the only true God -
00:16:32.35\00:16:34.72
and Jesus Christ
whom Thou hast sent. "
00:16:34.92\00:16:36.52
And then again we read in
the very last book of Revelation
00:16:36.93\00:16:40.56
the very last
church of Revelation
00:16:40.76\00:16:42.40
which takes us down
to the very end of time
00:16:42.60\00:16:44.53
we read about
Christ and His relationship
00:16:44.73\00:16:48.97
with the Laodicean church.
00:16:49.17\00:16:51.11
The Laodicean church is
the epitome of a religious
00:16:51.51\00:16:56.11
organization that feels
rich and increased with goods
00:16:56.31\00:17:00.42
and doesn't need
anything. In other words,
00:17:00.62\00:17:01.95
they've got their
doctrines all set up.
00:17:02.08\00:17:03.72
They've got their
dogma figured out.
00:17:03.92\00:17:06.42
They've got all their
forms and their ceremonies.
00:17:06.62\00:17:08.92
But Jesus Christ is pictured
standing outside the door.
00:17:09.32\00:17:12.89
In other words, relationship
with Jesus is missing
00:17:13.40\00:17:17.73
and He's knocking on the
door. He wants to come in;
00:17:17.93\00:17:20.00
He wants to sup
with us individually.
00:17:20.20\00:17:23.24
He wants to be part of our life.
00:17:23.44\00:17:26.01
Not just something
we do once a week...
00:17:26.21\00:17:28.41
a set of rules
that we ascribe to.
00:17:28.61\00:17:32.01
He wants to actually
fill us with His Spirit,
00:17:32.21\00:17:34.85
walk with us, talk with us.
00:17:35.05\00:17:36.55
Abide in us... John chapter 15.
00:17:36.75\00:17:39.29
So a relationship with Jesus
is foundational to relationship
00:17:39.49\00:17:42.99
with others. And God wants us to
have a good healthy relationship
00:17:43.19\00:17:47.20
with Him based on
love, based on respect,
00:17:47.53\00:17:50.83
based on understanding,
00:17:51.03\00:17:52.87
based on you know this empathy.
00:17:53.07\00:17:57.37
Now, there are a lot
of people in the world
00:17:57.57\00:17:59.67
who have these good
relationships horizontally
00:18:00.08\00:18:05.01
even though they may
not have them vertically.
00:18:05.21\00:18:06.55
In other words, there are people
00:18:06.72\00:18:08.25
in the world who
don't necessarily know God
00:18:08.45\00:18:10.89
or follow God but the
principles of God's kingdom
00:18:11.09\00:18:15.19
are manifest in
them. They love; they have
00:18:15.39\00:18:17.86
the spirit of respect
and understanding and empathy
00:18:18.06\00:18:21.86
and all the things that
are good for a relationship.
00:18:22.06\00:18:23.80
And then there are
people like us - Christians -
00:18:24.20\00:18:27.97
who find all of those
principles... Rise and I come
00:18:28.17\00:18:31.47
from very
dysfunctional backgrounds.
00:18:31.67\00:18:33.27
Single-parent homes; a lot
of dysfunction taking place.
00:18:33.48\00:18:37.45
And we found - discovered - how
to have healthy relationships
00:18:37.75\00:18:43.69
through the
principles of the Bible.
00:18:43.89\00:18:45.22
So there are
people who for some reason
00:18:45.59\00:18:48.16
the Biblical principles
kind of are there even though
00:18:48.36\00:18:49.82
they may not be Christians.
And then there are others of us
00:18:50.03\00:18:52.16
who, yeah, we were
kind of raised Christian
00:18:52.36\00:18:54.00
etc. but we didn't really
understand the principles.
00:18:54.20\00:18:56.00
Our parents were dysfunctional
in their relationships.
00:18:56.20\00:18:58.83
We went to the Bible and
we discovered these principles
00:18:59.03\00:19:01.50
and tonight we
want to really hone in
00:19:01.70\00:19:04.21
on the significance
of these principles -
00:19:04.41\00:19:06.68
how important they
are - because we're told
00:19:06.88\00:19:09.28
that failing relationships
according to Matthew chapter 24
00:19:09.48\00:19:13.18
is one of the
signs of the times.
00:19:13.38\00:19:14.85
We're told that
there are going to be...
00:19:15.05\00:19:16.75
"Love is going to wax
cold" we are told in Matthew 24.
00:19:17.25\00:19:20.22
Relationships there
where there are good servants
00:19:20.42\00:19:23.73
and evil servants, and
the evil servants are smiting
00:19:23.93\00:19:26.56
the good servants.
There's failure of relationship.
00:19:26.76\00:19:29.30
And then in the ten
virgins parable of Matthew 25
00:19:29.50\00:19:32.13
which leans on 24 we are
told that there's wise virgins
00:19:32.33\00:19:35.60
and foolish virgins and
there's dysfunction taking place
00:19:35.80\00:19:39.17
between the two.
Only God can heal
00:19:39.37\00:19:41.98
our relationships with others
00:19:42.18\00:19:44.88
through a vertical
relationship with Him.
00:19:45.08\00:19:47.28
Very very true, and
in John 17 verse 3 about
00:19:48.45\00:19:52.52
eternal life is knowing God
00:19:52.72\00:19:55.86
and Jesus Christ
whom He has sent.
00:19:56.06\00:19:58.43
That is so central to life
00:19:58.83\00:20:00.93
because that's
eternal life that's involving.
00:20:01.13\00:20:03.60
That's all to do with
a relationship with God.
00:20:03.80\00:20:06.13
It's interesting that
you said that in Revelation 3
00:20:06.33\00:20:10.51
Jesus is pictured
being outside the door.
00:20:10.91\00:20:14.01
As not just outside
the door of the heart
00:20:15.04\00:20:18.71
of the individual and
it's an individual salvation.
00:20:18.91\00:20:21.28
It's actually... A lot of
the time it's outside the door
00:20:21.68\00:20:24.92
of the church. Umm. The
church is going on doing
00:20:25.12\00:20:28.26
all of its things so
they've kept Jesus outside.
00:20:28.46\00:20:32.63
A lot of the time I hear:
"Lord, join us in our worship"
00:20:32.83\00:20:35.76
and I'm thinking:
"What? Don't you know WHO
00:20:35.96\00:20:37.90
you're worshiping?
00:20:38.10\00:20:39.47
You're here to worship
God not just to worship
00:20:39.67\00:20:42.34
and ask God to be a
participant with you.
00:20:42.74\00:20:44.91
You're here to worship Him. "
00:20:45.77\00:20:47.48
And we've got to
get back to that idea.
00:20:47.68\00:20:49.81
Just going back to
the Bible is very clear
00:20:50.01\00:20:52.45
that God had intended
when He made Adam and Eve -
00:20:52.65\00:20:55.58
the first
people on this planet -
00:20:55.78\00:20:58.82
it was His intention that that
relationship should have been
00:20:59.02\00:21:02.69
perfect and it should
have been perfect with Him.
00:21:02.89\00:21:05.89
But because of the evil
that was put upon this earth
00:21:06.09\00:21:09.96
through Satan, we can see that
he was pulling the relationships
00:21:10.17\00:21:14.57
apart. Two institutions
in the Bible - marriage
00:21:14.77\00:21:17.61
and the Sabbath - are the
two institutions that are being
00:21:17.77\00:21:20.41
attacked now by
Satan. To destroy marriage -
00:21:20.61\00:21:22.88
to destroy that normal, happy
relationship between couples -
00:21:23.08\00:21:25.88
and to take away the
relationship with God.
00:21:26.08\00:21:28.88
So when we base that on
what we are talking about today
00:21:29.08\00:21:32.32
we've got to understand
that God wants to bring us back
00:21:32.52\00:21:34.92
to that same relationship
that He had intended for us
00:21:35.12\00:21:38.23
at the very beginning.
00:21:38.43\00:21:39.76
Um-hmm. Very true.
00:21:40.56\00:21:43.87
Good. So relational
failure is a sign of the times
00:21:44.07\00:21:47.94
and as you were saying
we need to connect with God.
00:21:48.14\00:21:52.11
We need to let
Him into our churches;
00:21:52.31\00:21:53.64
we need to let
Him into our hearts
00:21:53.68\00:21:55.01
in order to renew
relationships not only with God
00:21:55.21\00:21:59.18
but with each other.
That's what we're suggesting.
00:21:59.38\00:22:02.02
Now we know that people can have
relationships outside of knowing
00:22:02.22\00:22:04.99
God, but we know that the
reason for that is because
00:22:05.19\00:22:07.62
it is still the Spirit of God
00:22:07.82\00:22:09.16
that's bringing in
the principles of love,
00:22:09.26\00:22:11.89
the principles of
respect, of understanding
00:22:12.09\00:22:14.60
of empathy that are the bedrock
of Christian relationships.
00:22:14.80\00:22:17.97
So relational failure
is what we're facing today
00:22:18.17\00:22:20.77
in every area of life:
00:22:20.97\00:22:23.34
individually, in the home,
in the church, in the community,
00:22:23.54\00:22:27.58
in the country,
and in the world.
00:22:27.78\00:22:30.45
Hmm. That's right.
00:22:30.65\00:22:32.21
And so can you
mention what some of those
00:22:32.51\00:22:35.95
relational
failures are specifically?
00:22:36.15\00:22:38.99
Things like... Yes, Rise.
00:22:40.29\00:22:43.22
Well I just was going
to use the word disconnect.
00:22:45.23\00:22:47.66
I think that's a word probably
that we... may not be used
00:22:47.86\00:22:50.77
quite often. We don't
feel connected to each other
00:22:50.97\00:22:54.24
or we feel disconnected.
And it's so amazing
00:22:54.44\00:22:56.67
how God's design was for us
to experience that connection
00:22:56.87\00:23:01.84
with Him, right? No
walls between us and Him.
00:23:02.04\00:23:05.48
No closed door
between us and Him.
00:23:05.68\00:23:07.52
We were to be connected with
Him and experiencing intimacy
00:23:07.72\00:23:10.99
with Him and the same
thing we would experience in
00:23:11.19\00:23:13.32
a marriage relationship.
00:23:13.52\00:23:14.86
So that's the relationship
that we want to focus in on.
00:23:14.89\00:23:18.13
That there can be relational
failure even within the confines
00:23:18.33\00:23:22.03
of what God designed for
there to be total intimacy.
00:23:22.26\00:23:25.90
And there can be a
wall and a closed-door
00:23:26.10\00:23:28.74
even between marriage partners.
00:23:28.94\00:23:30.44
We hear that sometimes how
people feel like they're married
00:23:30.64\00:23:32.84
"to a stranger. " Or
they feel isolated or lonely
00:23:33.04\00:23:35.34
even within their marriage.
00:23:35.54\00:23:36.88
And again, I was thinking
about that picture of Christ
00:23:36.91\00:23:40.25
on the other side of the door.
00:23:40.45\00:23:41.78
Right? That closed-door rather
than this beautiful picture
00:23:41.95\00:23:45.25
of intimacy and transparency
and nothing between us.
00:23:45.45\00:23:48.82
And I think that we
crave that level of intimacy.
00:23:49.22\00:23:51.89
But there are a lot of
things that fight against that
00:23:52.09\00:23:54.20
in our own psyches
as well as in the world.
00:23:54.40\00:23:57.03
So we come
"baggaged" like James mentioned.
00:23:57.23\00:23:59.90
You know, we entered
into a relationship with...
00:24:00.10\00:24:02.84
from a dysfunctional
background which meant that
00:24:03.04\00:24:05.94
we didn't know how to
do relationships perfectly.
00:24:06.14\00:24:08.88
You know, we
definitely loved each other,
00:24:09.08\00:24:11.71
committed to each other.
We really believed that it was
00:24:11.91\00:24:14.05
God's design and
blessing for us to be together.
00:24:14.25\00:24:17.02
But there were still a lot
of things underneath all those
00:24:17.22\00:24:20.39
onion peelings, right?
in our own hearts and lives
00:24:20.59\00:24:23.09
that maybe we didn't
even realize were still there
00:24:23.29\00:24:25.39
and that we were vulnerable to.
00:24:25.59\00:24:26.93
So through our
own marital experience
00:24:27.06\00:24:30.87
we have
experienced relational failure.
00:24:31.03\00:24:34.37
And probably the one that
stands out for us the biggest
00:24:34.57\00:24:37.07
and had the biggest
impact on our marriage
00:24:37.27\00:24:40.04
in terms of causing pain and
yet at the same time providing
00:24:40.24\00:24:46.08
a catapult from which we grew
00:24:46.28\00:24:48.85
and/or definitely experienced
an even greater level
00:24:49.05\00:24:53.46
of intimacy and
connection with each other
00:24:53.66\00:24:55.22
and that was what
is commonly referred to
00:24:55.42\00:24:59.46
as maybe emotional affairs
or emotional unfaithfulness.
00:24:59.66\00:25:03.90
Umm!
00:25:04.10\00:25:05.73
I think I've seen
you refer to it before
00:25:05.93\00:25:10.81
as unauthorized
emotional attachment?
00:25:11.01\00:25:15.21
And actually,
it can be anything.
00:25:16.24\00:25:18.11
It can be a
thing; it can be a job;
00:25:18.31\00:25:20.78
it can be a sport.
00:25:20.98\00:25:23.35
It can be a person...
it can be different things
00:25:23.55\00:25:26.76
where the person actually...
the spouse takes their
00:25:26.96\00:25:29.82
emotional relationship
away from their spouse
00:25:30.03\00:25:35.16
and they put it
onto something else.
00:25:35.36\00:25:37.73
Doesn't necessarily have
to be a person. It can be
00:25:38.13\00:25:40.54
something that's not tangible
00:25:40.74\00:25:43.74
but which becomes
more important to them.
00:25:44.14\00:25:46.64
Yeah, I think that's a
really good point, Rosemary,
00:25:49.24\00:25:52.38
because it's the one with
another person that becomes
00:25:52.58\00:25:57.25
the most painful
probably in a relationship
00:25:57.45\00:25:59.49
because it feels so defiling.
00:25:59.69\00:26:01.02
Yet a lot of times
I think what precludes
00:26:01.22\00:26:03.86
an emotional one with a person
00:26:04.26\00:26:07.10
is probably one of
the partners is attached
00:26:07.30\00:26:11.40
or receiving emotional support
00:26:11.60\00:26:14.30
from like you said.
Maybe it's their job.
00:26:14.50\00:26:16.24
I know James... I felt
James... Well he is naturally
00:26:16.44\00:26:20.14
a workaholic, right?
So finding so much support
00:26:20.34\00:26:23.21
and investment and
almost feeling isolated
00:26:23.41\00:26:26.01
from him because that's
where he is being fulfilled.
00:26:26.21\00:26:30.99
Right? And when
you feel isolated
00:26:31.19\00:26:33.19
from that within your marriage
00:26:33.39\00:26:35.22
yeah, you're
right... that's painful.
00:26:35.42\00:26:37.76
Unhealthy.
00:26:38.76\00:26:40.10
Yeah, that's right.
00:26:40.13\00:26:41.46
So we'll talk a bit later
about some of the situation
00:26:42.23\00:26:46.17
and the way that
you found relief.
00:26:46.47\00:26:52.41
You found reconciliation
or whatever you were needing
00:26:52.61\00:26:56.34
in that situation. We
can talk about that now
00:26:56.54\00:26:58.41
or later. Which
would you like to do?
00:26:58.61\00:26:59.95
Let's go for it.
00:27:01.85\00:27:04.15
OK... take it.
00:27:04.35\00:27:06.76
So I think...
Well for James and I
00:27:07.96\00:27:11.19
something that we realized
when we were on the healing
00:27:11.39\00:27:13.93
process that we learned,
right? So once this took place
00:27:14.13\00:27:18.17
and it became open
in our relationship
00:27:18.37\00:27:22.10
because there was definitely
a period of secrecy...
00:27:22.30\00:27:24.24
Thankfully it wasn't a
long period of time of secrecy
00:27:24.44\00:27:28.64
because I think that
can make it even worse
00:27:28.84\00:27:31.98
potentially...
the amount of time.
00:27:32.18\00:27:33.72
However, once we embarked
on that journey of healing
00:27:33.92\00:27:38.05
there were a lot of
things that we learned
00:27:38.25\00:27:40.39
that were vital
for reconstruction.
00:27:40.59\00:27:43.12
We learned about the
concept of walls and windows.
00:27:43.32\00:27:46.39
It was an analogy
that a woman who wrote
00:27:46.59\00:27:49.10
a book entitled
Not Just Friends.
00:27:49.30\00:27:51.47
She used this analogy in
which the walls and windows
00:27:51.67\00:27:54.70
symbolized boundaries,
symbolized where there was
00:27:54.90\00:27:58.27
transparency, symbolized
where there were greater levels
00:27:58.47\00:28:00.98
of intimacy and
how in a marriage
00:28:01.14\00:28:02.78
we were to have no
walls and windows between us.
00:28:02.98\00:28:05.21
We live in the same
house. We co-habitate, right?
00:28:05.41\00:28:07.78
within the same dwelling
00:28:07.98\00:28:09.32
and everyone else
is on the outside.
00:28:09.35\00:28:10.72
And this is where
we experience intimacy
00:28:10.92\00:28:13.56
and love and safe. We
feel safe with each other
00:28:13.76\00:28:17.23
completely so that we
can be completely vulnerable.
00:28:17.63\00:28:20.73
And no one else is
allowed except for both of us
00:28:20.93\00:28:23.23
knowing it. Now when
you have an emotional affair
00:28:23.43\00:28:26.17
or it could be
called something else
00:28:26.37\00:28:29.30
then usually you are building...
you are remodeling your home.
00:28:29.50\00:28:33.54
You are building up a wall
between you and your spouse
00:28:33.74\00:28:35.58
and you've constructed
an open area between you
00:28:35.78\00:28:38.75
and another person. And
unfortunately this can take
00:28:38.95\00:28:41.12
place even in a
really healthy marriage.
00:28:41.32\00:28:43.72
Sometimes what we
read was that it's not just
00:28:43.92\00:28:45.79
"Oh you have a bad marriage"
and so someone goes out.
00:28:45.99\00:28:47.99
Or: "Oh, your
partner's the pits"
00:28:48.19\00:28:49.92
and that's why you strayed away.
00:28:50.13\00:28:52.19
It's because usually you
don't have the boundaries
00:28:52.39\00:28:55.43
that you really need.
Those walls and windows.
00:28:55.63\00:28:58.07
You weren't checking
them and they weren't secure.
00:28:58.27\00:29:00.54
And all of a sudden you
started building something
00:29:00.74\00:29:02.74
with someone else in
which there was communication.
00:29:02.94\00:29:05.41
So it can begin very innocently.
00:29:05.61\00:29:08.01
It can begin with
very good intentions even.
00:29:08.21\00:29:10.85
It can begin at work... some-
one that you see consistently.
00:29:11.05\00:29:14.22
That's typically what it is
00:29:14.55\00:29:15.98
and where we probably need
to be really aware of healthy
00:29:16.18\00:29:18.79
boundaries is when
we're associating with someone
00:29:18.99\00:29:21.22
of the opposite sex
on a consistent basis.
00:29:21.42\00:29:24.23
And then what are we
communicating with them?
00:29:24.59\00:29:27.50
Right? Because when the
communication starts becoming
00:29:27.70\00:29:29.96
more and more open
00:29:30.17\00:29:31.53
and more and more vulnerable
and more and more emotional
00:29:31.73\00:29:34.47
and real then that's
when you... Like I said
00:29:34.67\00:29:39.57
even unbeknownst to you
you're reconstructing your home.
00:29:39.77\00:29:42.94
You're opening a
doorway and a window
00:29:43.14\00:29:47.02
or whatever been you
and another individual
00:29:47.22\00:29:49.45
and your spouse
isn't in that same room.
00:29:49.65\00:29:51.49
Umm. So that
gets really dangerous.
00:29:52.32\00:29:55.29
And the second part
that starts entering in
00:29:55.49\00:29:58.63
is secrecy. You
know, maybe initially
00:29:58.83\00:30:02.16
you communicate with
your spouse about it but then
00:30:02.36\00:30:04.77
after a while, you don't.
00:30:04.97\00:30:06.30
And it becomes more and more...
And that secrecy is what really
00:30:06.33\00:30:10.34
slicks up the
slippery slope, right?
00:30:10.54\00:30:13.14
You've built a wall
between you and your spouse.
00:30:13.54\00:30:16.51
And the most
powerful way of healing
00:30:17.61\00:30:21.45
from something like this
00:30:21.65\00:30:22.98
is to do the tough
work of remodeling.
00:30:23.02\00:30:25.49
And whenever you hear
people are remodeling their home
00:30:25.69\00:30:27.69
they always say: "Oh
remodeling's so much harder
00:30:27.89\00:30:29.52
than starting
from scratch. " Yes.
00:30:29.72\00:30:31.49
So it's hard but it's
so worth... so worth it.
00:30:31.89\00:30:37.87
And sometimes using
that analogy of the remodel
00:30:38.37\00:30:43.61
sometimes the house
has to be remodeled because
00:30:43.81\00:30:46.54
the plumbing fixtures
that you originally used
00:30:46.94\00:30:49.44
weren't that great or the wall
00:30:49.64\00:30:51.58
wasn't really that
straight to begin with.
00:30:51.78\00:30:53.31
You know, and so we
started with a foundation
00:30:53.52\00:30:56.99
that had some areas
that probably needed to be
00:30:57.19\00:30:59.25
redone anyway.
And every one of us
00:30:59.45\00:31:02.79
you know... all
relationships are like that.
00:31:02.99\00:31:05.06
One of the most difficult
things for me, and I think
00:31:05.26\00:31:08.30
for men, is to recognize that:
00:31:08.50\00:31:11.03
that we aren't perfect,
that marriages aren't complete,
00:31:11.23\00:31:14.30
they're not perfect. That
we can grow, that we can learn,
00:31:14.50\00:31:17.37
and that we may need
to do some remodeling
00:31:17.57\00:31:20.28
and we need to be open to that
00:31:20.48\00:31:21.81
and willing to recognize
00:31:21.91\00:31:26.01
and be responsible perhaps
for the entire relationship
00:31:26.21\00:31:30.49
rather than shifting the blame.
00:31:30.69\00:31:32.02
Adam's fall caused him to natur-
ally want to shift the blame
00:31:32.22\00:31:36.62
to the woman. And of
course the woman followed suit
00:31:36.83\00:31:39.19
and shifted the
blame to the serpent.
00:31:39.39\00:31:40.96
And we
naturally tend to do that.
00:31:41.16\00:31:44.23
Jesus came to
restore the relationship
00:31:44.43\00:31:49.00
between man and God
and man and each other.
00:31:49.20\00:31:51.51
And He did that by
taking full responsibility
00:31:51.71\00:31:55.38
for something that He
wasn't even responsible for.
00:31:55.58\00:31:57.75
And that is what it
means to be like Christ.
00:31:57.95\00:32:00.92
It's to take responsibility
and men are called to do that.
00:32:01.12\00:32:05.62
We're called to be the
head and take responsibility
00:32:05.82\00:32:08.29
even if we don't feel
like we're responsible
00:32:08.49\00:32:10.06
and to do whatever we can
to try to heal relationships.
00:32:10.46\00:32:15.06
And that's
beautiful. I think... sorry...
00:32:15.26\00:32:19.03
so foundational to
our healing process.
00:32:19.23\00:32:21.10
And that it is
the... go ahead...
00:32:22.30\00:32:26.14
OK. I was just going to say that
James taking accountability,
00:32:27.38\00:32:32.05
me taking accountability,
acknowledging personal failure
00:32:32.25\00:32:36.69
has to be foundational to
the work of reconstruction
00:32:36.89\00:32:41.46
that we were just talking about.
00:32:41.66\00:32:42.99
You need that level of humility.
00:32:43.02\00:32:44.99
I was just going to say before
00:32:45.19\00:32:47.56
that when you're remodeling
00:32:47.76\00:32:50.13
often you have a greater
mess when you start tearing
00:32:50.33\00:32:54.77
things down to
rebuild. Right. Yeah.
00:32:54.97\00:32:58.14
And so things can get
very messy before you get
00:32:58.34\00:33:01.24
to the point of being
able to do the new work:
00:33:01.44\00:33:04.78
build a new wall, put
in a new door or whatever.
00:33:04.98\00:33:07.95
And it only gets cleaned
up once you've done that new
00:33:09.58\00:33:14.09
section or torn down a
wall that's been built up.
00:33:14.29\00:33:17.29
You then clean up and
make everything clean.
00:33:17.49\00:33:21.36
So sometimes it gets a bit messy
00:33:21.56\00:33:23.30
until you're actually getting
to the point of everything
00:33:23.70\00:33:27.27
being fixed up and
then you start to clean.
00:33:27.47\00:33:29.64
I was also going
to make a comment
00:33:29.84\00:33:31.44
on the emotional relationship
that you can end up having
00:33:32.14\00:33:36.24
with another
person or as the word used
00:33:36.44\00:33:40.35
unauthorized person
00:33:40.55\00:33:42.22
that often if you are feeling
lonely in your relationship
00:33:42.85\00:33:47.26
with your spouse or
neglected in some way
00:33:47.46\00:33:50.96
or there's just something
not quite working there
00:33:51.16\00:33:54.33
if you start to
talk to another person -
00:33:55.46\00:33:58.57
especially someone
of the opposite sex -
00:33:58.97\00:34:01.57
you can be in a position
where that person might be
00:34:02.70\00:34:06.78
the sort of person who says:
00:34:06.98\00:34:09.48
"Oh, look... I understand.
00:34:09.68\00:34:12.05
You're such a wonderful person
00:34:12.25\00:34:15.12
and your spouse shouldn't
be neglecting you like this. "
00:34:15.32\00:34:18.25
"Such a terrible person. "
00:34:18.45\00:34:20.16
"A terrible person,
obviously don't understand you
00:34:20.36\00:34:22.79
but I do. "
00:34:22.99\00:34:24.33
And they start you on this...
they start reeling you in
00:34:24.39\00:34:27.30
like a fish. You
know, you've taken the bait
00:34:27.50\00:34:32.13
in many cases and
they're starting to reel you in
00:34:32.33\00:34:34.90
with all this talk to
get to your emotional side
00:34:35.10\00:34:40.08
by saying how wonderful you are
00:34:40.28\00:34:42.18
and they understand and
obviously, their spouse is...
00:34:42.38\00:34:45.88
is deficient and not
doing the right thing
00:34:46.08\00:34:48.82
but you know a person like
them would be perfect for you.
00:34:49.02\00:34:51.45
Whatever words they
use they're reeling you in
00:34:51.65\00:34:55.89
to more than an
emotional attachment.
00:34:56.09\00:34:59.69
And so that's where it
becomes really dangerous.
00:34:59.89\00:35:03.00
Yeah, and I
would just add to that
00:35:04.20\00:35:07.27
that that is so true...
that that definitely can happen.
00:35:07.47\00:35:12.07
You know, in our relationship
it wasn't like James is
00:35:12.27\00:35:15.44
a horrible person, but
there was a different problem.
00:35:15.64\00:35:18.75
I was going through a
lot of stress in my life
00:35:18.95\00:35:21.22
for something else
that was taking place.
00:35:21.42\00:35:23.42
James was very busy
at that time of his life
00:35:23.62\00:35:26.22
and we had just moved
somewhere. I didn't know anyone.
00:35:26.42\00:35:28.86
I had no friends, so I did feel
vulnerable from that respect.
00:35:29.06\00:35:32.49
But I was carrying
something very very heavy
00:35:32.69\00:35:35.20
in my heart and my life
00:35:35.40\00:35:36.73
and you're right, I did
find someone to talk to.
00:35:36.77\00:35:38.80
But it doesn't have
to be about your spouse.
00:35:39.00\00:35:41.00
Sometimes it
could be a work problem,
00:35:41.20\00:35:42.74
you know, that
is important to you
00:35:42.94\00:35:44.54
or something taking
place with your children
00:35:44.74\00:35:46.91
and you find like you
said "a listening ear. "
00:35:47.11\00:35:49.48
Someone who is wanting
to listen and like you said
00:35:49.68\00:35:55.28
being supportive.
And sometimes it can be
00:35:55.48\00:35:57.95
even with your
parents. It can be someone who
00:35:58.15\00:36:00.59
speaks... You know,
you might have a problem
00:36:00.79\00:36:03.69
with your parents
and someone else can say:
00:36:03.89\00:36:06.59
"Ah, yeah, your parents
obviously don't understand you
00:36:06.80\00:36:09.46
and they're not doing
the right thing by you"
00:36:09.66\00:36:11.47
etc. and they start
putting a wall between yourself
00:36:11.67\00:36:14.90
and your parents which
God in the 4th commandment
00:36:15.10\00:36:18.47
does not want. He wants
you to honor your parents
00:36:18.67\00:36:21.28
and another
person can be breaking...
00:36:21.68\00:36:24.88
you know... what's the
word I'm trying to find?
00:36:25.08\00:36:29.22
Destroying that
relationship with your parents
00:36:29.62\00:36:31.79
that you should be having
00:36:31.99\00:36:33.32
and taking you
away from them. Yes!
00:36:33.42\00:36:36.09
So it's not just a spouse; it's
in all different relationships.
00:36:36.29\00:36:39.63
So be very careful about
someone who starts putting down
00:36:39.83\00:36:42.96
the person that you should
be having the relationship with:
00:36:43.16\00:36:46.63
your parents, your
spouse, your children.
00:36:46.84\00:36:48.94
Hmm. So what Rise was saying is
00:36:49.14\00:36:53.58
part of the study that we read
in this book Not Just Friends
00:36:53.78\00:36:58.18
and what's really interesting is
00:36:58.38\00:37:00.32
you know we think about
relationships primarily as
00:37:00.52\00:37:04.75
being infected by people
who are trying to undermine
00:37:04.95\00:37:09.62
perhaps a relationship
with a spouse, a husband or wife
00:37:09.82\00:37:12.86
or with other relatives.
00:37:13.06\00:37:14.90
But a lot of the... a
lot of the emotional adultery
00:37:15.10\00:37:19.97
that is taking... the emotional
affairs that are taking place
00:37:20.17\00:37:22.80
in the last few decades
00:37:23.00\00:37:26.11
are actually... they
actually begin innocently.
00:37:26.31\00:37:29.64
A lot of them
begin in the workplace.
00:37:29.84\00:37:31.91
They begin with people
that you're friends with.
00:37:32.11\00:37:34.72
And you may not even be
physically attracted to them.
00:37:34.92\00:37:37.95
A lot of these relationships
develop with somebody...
00:37:38.15\00:37:41.02
Like in our situation,
when I met this person
00:37:41.22\00:37:44.96
and you know
interacted and confronted him
00:37:45.16\00:37:47.40
he wasn't a person...
He wasn't a Christian.
00:37:47.60\00:37:49.76
He wasn't a believer and he
wasn't a person I would think
00:37:49.96\00:37:51.63
my wife would be attracted to.
00:37:51.83\00:37:53.44
And so... But the attraction was
00:37:53.74\00:37:57.44
the emotional attachment.
And the emotional attachment
00:37:57.64\00:38:00.74
was so strong that it wasn't
like: "Yeah, I'm just going to
00:38:00.94\00:38:03.11
quit talking to
this guy or whatever. "
00:38:03.31\00:38:04.88
My wife was
thinking... Rise was thinking
00:38:05.08\00:38:07.12
"Can you have Bible studies
with him? Can he still be part
00:38:07.32\00:38:10.49
of our friendship
group? " Etc. etc.
00:38:10.69\00:38:12.99
That's how strong the
emotional attachment was.
00:38:13.19\00:38:15.19
And it had nothing
really to do with the physical.
00:38:15.39\00:38:18.39
And sometimes a woman can
be so emotionally attached
00:38:18.59\00:38:21.93
to a man because he listens
and because he is able to
00:38:22.13\00:38:26.33
minister in that way that the
physical, the sexual interaction
00:38:26.53\00:38:31.24
is kind of like: "Yeah,
of course, I'll let you.
00:38:31.44\00:38:33.94
We can have sex. "
She's not necessarily
00:38:34.14\00:38:36.31
interested in that. He might
definitely be interested in it
00:38:36.51\00:38:39.35
but it's the emotional
that makes her more obligated
00:38:39.55\00:38:42.88
to the sexual. And that's
where we really need to be aware
00:38:43.08\00:38:46.92
because this accidental...
"We're just friends. "
00:38:47.12\00:38:50.56
That's why the book is
called Not Just Friends.
00:38:50.76\00:38:53.36
"We're just friends. "
And we know... I mean, we have
00:38:53.56\00:38:56.40
people that are close to
us that have these friendships
00:38:56.60\00:38:59.00
that are so close that
they're spending maybe more time
00:38:59.20\00:39:02.70
or as much time with the
spouse, the husband or the wife.
00:39:02.90\00:39:05.11
They're going on little weekend
excursions here and there
00:39:05.31\00:39:08.44
and doing
little things together.
00:39:08.64\00:39:09.98
And we're thinking: "How can
that? " "We're just friends. "
00:39:10.15\00:39:12.21
"We're JUST friends! "
00:39:12.41\00:39:13.75
That's how it
starts and then Boom!
00:39:13.82\00:39:15.38
all of a sudden there's
this moment when it moves into
00:39:15.58\00:39:19.45
maybe the physical. But
even the emotional attachment
00:39:19.65\00:39:23.43
is off bounds,
it's off-limits. Yes.
00:39:23.63\00:39:26.13
That's right.
That's very very true.
00:39:26.33\00:39:28.60
So tell us about...
Can you give us any details
00:39:28.80\00:39:31.30
about reconciliation
in this situation?
00:39:31.50\00:39:33.84
You've mentioned it a
little bit. What else can...
00:39:34.77\00:39:36.77
We began with owning...
owning what's taking place.
00:39:38.17\00:39:43.11
And it took me a while to
see it for what it really was.
00:39:43.31\00:39:46.51
And even after I told
James there was a path...
00:39:46.72\00:39:49.18
Like James said, initially
I was: "Ah, is there any way
00:39:49.38\00:39:51.45
I can keep this relationship
and keep my marriage? "
00:39:51.65\00:39:54.39
And you realize: "No,
it's impossible. " Right?
00:39:54.59\00:39:55.92
But at the time you are so
unhealthy in your own psyche
00:39:56.12\00:40:00.33
in your own attachment -
emotional attachment - that
00:40:00.53\00:40:03.13
it just... it's not immediate.
00:40:03.33\00:40:05.77
You know, there's this
process that has to take place.
00:40:05.97\00:40:08.40
And I needed
people to speak in to me.
00:40:08.60\00:40:12.51
I needed to learn. But I
also remember telling James...
00:40:12.71\00:40:15.98
when I first told him I wasn't
sure where I was emotionally.
00:40:16.18\00:40:19.11
But you have to come to a
point where you're like: "No,
00:40:19.45\00:40:21.12
I want this primary relationship
more than anything else
00:40:21.32\00:40:24.49
and I'm willing to
whatever it takes. "
00:40:24.69\00:40:26.55
Because like I told
you it is hard work.
00:40:26.76\00:40:28.96
And part of that hard
work that we went through
00:40:29.16\00:40:31.96
was some counseling.
There was a couple who took us
00:40:32.16\00:40:34.56
in and met with us
pretty consistently.
00:40:34.76\00:40:36.73
So having a third party
was really helpful for us
00:40:36.93\00:40:39.50
in helping us to learn tools
and helping me to learn how
00:40:39.70\00:40:42.57
to develop boundaries
and making commitments
00:40:42.77\00:40:46.74
and making
decisions and choices.
00:40:47.14\00:40:49.11
Doing the
remodeling process, you know.
00:40:49.31\00:40:51.55
Putting up the wall
here so that you never ever
00:40:51.75\00:40:53.65
see that person again.
00:40:53.85\00:40:55.18
And you know, it's
amazing. Now I'm like:
00:40:55.22\00:40:56.89
"He means nothing to me. "
00:40:57.09\00:40:59.22
You know what I'm
saying? And at the time
00:40:59.42\00:41:01.66
it just didn't
seem that way at all.
00:41:01.86\00:41:03.73
And one of the things we learned
was that the unfaithful partner
00:41:04.13\00:41:07.43
has to become the healer.
00:41:07.63\00:41:09.43
Now I know Jesus is the healer,
but what they meant by that
00:41:09.63\00:41:12.03
was that the only
way healing can come
00:41:12.23\00:41:14.64
to James was through
certain steps that - process -
00:41:14.84\00:41:19.81
of processing
that I needed to take.
00:41:20.01\00:41:22.48
And then my own
healing, though, I needed him.
00:41:22.68\00:41:24.88
You know, I needed
James to pour into me...
00:41:25.08\00:41:27.02
which was SO challenging
if you can imagine that.
00:41:27.22\00:41:29.95
For James to want to
heal his wife who's hurting
00:41:30.15\00:41:32.55
because of this disconnect
from someone else and etc.
00:41:32.75\00:41:35.66
So it was this process
where were intentionally...
00:41:36.76\00:41:40.76
We had disconnected but
were intentionally re-connecting
00:41:40.96\00:41:44.13
consistently and communicating
and me being 100% transparent.
00:41:44.33\00:41:49.74
All those bricks that I
had put between us of secrecy
00:41:49.94\00:41:52.64
they all had to
come down one by one
00:41:52.84\00:41:54.54
for everything that had been
said in secret was now told.
00:41:54.74\00:41:57.88
Kind of that
Bible verse, you know?
00:41:58.08\00:41:59.55
Everything that... It will
one day be proclaimed from the
00:41:59.75\00:42:03.25
rooftops everything
that's done in secrecy.
00:42:03.45\00:42:04.99
And thankfully our sins
go beforehand into judgment
00:42:05.19\00:42:08.59
rather than later so that
all those bricks come down
00:42:08.79\00:42:11.23
and we can have the
intimacy with Christ.
00:42:11.43\00:42:13.29
And that's what had to
happen in our relationship
00:42:13.50\00:42:15.03
with each other was
the open communication.
00:42:15.23\00:42:17.27
Yeah, it's so much like
a relationship with Christ.
00:42:17.93\00:42:20.77
You know we... A lot of
times Christians try to have
00:42:20.97\00:42:24.44
the relationship with the world
and the relationship with God.
00:42:24.64\00:42:27.64
And you can't have both.
00:42:27.84\00:42:29.34
You've gotta make a clean break.
00:42:29.54\00:42:31.31
Rise needed to make a
clean break with this.
00:42:31.51\00:42:33.62
Once she made a clean break
that told me... I was hurting
00:42:33.82\00:42:36.42
and that told
me... She made that step
00:42:36.62\00:42:38.69
and that helped me
to make my next step.
00:42:38.89\00:42:40.29
And that's the same with
Christ. You know, Christ wants
00:42:40.49\00:42:43.09
to have a relationship with us.
00:42:43.29\00:42:44.63
He's calling us to open
that door so that He can come in
00:42:44.83\00:42:47.36
with us. Once she made
that break like she said
00:42:47.56\00:42:50.23
"Now I can't even
believe... I can't even think...
00:42:50.43\00:42:52.67
Was I really? What
possessed me? " so to speak.
00:42:52.87\00:42:57.24
And many times as Christians
that's the experience we have
00:42:57.44\00:43:00.48
with the world. We're thinking:
"I used to like to drink? "
00:43:00.68\00:43:03.31
"I used to like to do the
things that I was doing? "
00:43:03.51\00:43:06.41
"No. Not anymore I don't. "
00:43:06.61\00:43:07.95
And we're afraid
sometimes. Rise was so afraid
00:43:08.08\00:43:10.59
to give up this relationship...
this emotional relationship
00:43:10.79\00:43:13.29
that was really feeding
her. And we're afraid sometimes
00:43:13.49\00:43:16.36
to give up the world.
00:43:16.56\00:43:17.89
The things of the world
that we seem to rely on,
00:43:17.93\00:43:20.00
that we seem to need.
00:43:20.20\00:43:21.53
But God is saying: "Give
that up because I have something
00:43:21.60\00:43:24.20
better for you. "
So as she made a step
00:43:24.40\00:43:27.07
I could make a
step. And each time...
00:43:27.27\00:43:28.94
Of course the counsellors
were huge in this as Rise said.
00:43:29.14\00:43:31.77
They really helped us because
00:43:31.97\00:43:34.41
you know, I'm going by
my emotions. Rise's going by
00:43:34.61\00:43:37.25
her emotions.
Who's right? Who's wrong?
00:43:37.45\00:43:39.51
And they were
helping us to navigate.
00:43:39.71\00:43:41.82
"Here's what you need
to do in this situation. "
00:43:42.02\00:43:44.09
"Rise here's
what you need to do. "
00:43:44.29\00:43:45.62
'James, here's
what you need to do. "
00:43:45.69\00:43:47.02
"Here's why James is
feeling the way he's feeling. "
00:43:47.09\00:43:48.82
"Rise, here's why you're
feeling- ing the way you're
00:43:49.02\00:43:50.66
feeling. "
"Here's the next step. "
00:43:50.86\00:43:52.26
We'd go for a couple
weeks forward and then
00:43:52.46\00:43:55.10
maybe there'd be an encounter
00:43:55.30\00:43:56.87
and we'd fall backwards
00:43:57.07\00:43:58.40
and we'd have to
kinda build again.
00:43:58.47\00:44:00.27
And like you said
with that home illustration
00:44:00.47\00:44:02.70
you know sometimes when
you're remodeling a home
00:44:02.90\00:44:04.71
it's so messy that
you can't even envision
00:44:04.91\00:44:08.04
what it's supposed to look like.
00:44:08.24\00:44:09.58
You can't even see what
it's supposed to look like
00:44:09.61\00:44:10.95
and you have to
step forward by faith.
00:44:11.31\00:44:13.05
You have to clean up the
mess. You have to keep going
00:44:13.25\00:44:15.12
with new plumbing and with
the sheetrock and the paint
00:44:15.32\00:44:19.09
until finally you get to
the place where it's a finished
00:44:19.29\00:44:22.12
project. And I love
what you just said because
00:44:22.32\00:44:26.46
I was thinking how much
more vulnerable and transparent
00:44:26.66\00:44:29.80
James became with me when
I became much more vulnerable
00:44:30.00\00:44:34.04
and transparent...
and it's continued.
00:44:34.24\00:44:36.10
And even to this
day it's amazing to me
00:44:36.30\00:44:39.11
how James is much more sensitive
to if we're not fully connected.
00:44:39.31\00:44:44.81
He's the one that will be:
"Hey, let's talk about this. "
00:44:45.01\00:44:47.52
Or: "Don't feel as
connected right now"
00:44:47.72\00:44:50.49
or whatever in checking.
'Cause once you've experienced
00:44:50.69\00:44:54.32
that level of intimacy
you want to keep it going.
00:44:54.52\00:44:56.16
But it does take maintenance.
00:44:56.36\00:44:57.69
That's right. And the
other thing I was thinking of
00:44:57.79\00:44:59.69
there has to be a
willingness on both parties
00:44:59.89\00:45:02.16
to want to
reconcile to make it work.
00:45:02.36\00:45:05.63
Because in the world
today it's very easy to say:
00:45:05.83\00:45:08.10
"Oh, I'm out! " You know?
00:45:08.30\00:45:10.14
And what makes the
difference is Rise realized
00:45:10.34\00:45:13.58
that she wanted to
make this relationship work
00:45:13.78\00:45:16.95
and James, you wanted to
make this relationship work.
00:45:17.15\00:45:20.52
It WILL work if we call upon God
00:45:20.72\00:45:23.35
and we do follow those prin-
ciples. But it's so easy today
00:45:23.55\00:45:26.69
to just walk away than
continue in that relationship.
00:45:26.89\00:45:30.56
That's right. OK...
let's go on and talk about
00:45:31.53\00:45:34.96
the relational
growth that happens
00:45:35.16\00:45:37.67
when you are reconciling.
00:45:37.87\00:45:40.94
So you're able to come together.
Have you got any scriptures
00:45:41.14\00:45:44.11
that would help
people in this situation?
00:45:44.61\00:45:48.84
Yes. There's one: II Peter 3:18.
00:45:49.61\00:45:52.25
What's that one?
00:45:52.45\00:45:53.78
So II Peter
chapter 3 and verse 18.
00:45:56.25\00:45:59.25
Let's just take a look at that.
00:45:59.45\00:46:00.79
It's a great... It's
a great scripture for
00:46:01.12\00:46:07.00
us in its context.
00:46:07.20\00:46:09.03
And I love the
context of it because
00:46:09.23\00:46:11.17
we're looking here at,
you know, the instability
00:46:11.37\00:46:17.14
of people in verse 16
00:46:17.34\00:46:20.98
and being aware or being beware
00:46:21.18\00:46:25.58
of wickedness and
falling from our steadfastness.
00:46:25.98\00:46:30.52
And so those are the previous
verses, and then verse 18 says:
00:46:30.92\00:46:33.99
"But grow in grace and
in the knowledge of our Lord
00:46:34.19\00:46:38.29
and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him
be glory both now and forever.
00:46:38.49\00:46:42.30
Amen. " Now every single phrase
in that last verse is gold.
00:46:42.50\00:46:47.70
Hmm. It's absolutely precious.
00:46:48.40\00:46:50.91
"We grow in grace. " Well,
that's what Rise and I needed.
00:46:51.11\00:46:54.01
We needed to have
grace. That's unmerited favor.
00:46:54.21\00:46:56.61
That is only necessary
when someone is fallen.
00:46:57.01\00:47:01.98
Angels... unfallen
angels don't need grace.
00:47:02.18\00:47:04.85
We need grace because
we're weak; we've fallen.
00:47:05.25\00:47:08.99
So I need to
manifest grace to Rise.
00:47:09.19\00:47:11.69
Rise needs to
manifest grace to me.
00:47:11.89\00:47:13.73
"And in the knowledge of our
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. "
00:47:13.93\00:47:17.23
Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
00:47:17.43\00:47:19.37
The knowledge that He's Savior;
the knowledge that He's Lord.
00:47:19.57\00:47:23.57
The knowledge that Jesus -
who will save us from our sins -
00:47:23.97\00:47:27.48
that's what the name means -
00:47:27.68\00:47:29.01
is Christ, the Anointed One.
00:47:29.04\00:47:30.41
"To Him be glory. " Our
relationship isn't about
00:47:30.71\00:47:34.02
glorifying ourselves.
00:47:34.22\00:47:35.68
Our marriage isn't
about bringing glory to us.
00:47:35.88\00:47:38.59
Our marriage, our relationships
are about glorifying God.
00:47:38.79\00:47:42.06
And when our motive and
when our focus is on God
00:47:42.26\00:47:45.06
and not on ourselves
00:47:45.26\00:47:46.59
we're not going to
"chuck" the relationship.
00:47:46.63\00:47:48.66
We "chuck" the relationship
'cause we're giving up
00:47:48.86\00:47:50.40
on ourselves, but we
won't "chuck" the relationship
00:47:50.60\00:47:52.83
when our focus is on God
00:47:53.03\00:47:54.70
and when our focus is for HIS
glory and not for our own glory.
00:47:54.90\00:47:58.71
So it's powerful really because
00:47:58.91\00:48:01.28
you know John and
Rosemary we are a testimony
00:48:01.48\00:48:06.85
of what God can do
to heal relationships
00:48:07.05\00:48:10.52
that have gone
through tremendous strain.
00:48:10.72\00:48:13.02
And we can now, as it says
in II Corinthians chapter 1,
00:48:13.22\00:48:16.96
we can now "comfort
others with the same comfort
00:48:17.16\00:48:20.36
whereby we've been
comforted of God. "
00:48:20.56\00:48:22.50
And so we've got all
these principles, all these
00:48:22.80\00:48:25.03
you know
nurturing relational healing
00:48:25.43\00:48:29.74
thoughts and verses
and experience that we can
00:48:29.94\00:48:33.48
share with people that
can really encourage them
00:48:33.68\00:48:36.01
in their relationships.
00:48:36.21\00:48:37.55
And when you're looking
00:48:37.61\00:48:40.92
the grow in grace that starts
00:48:41.12\00:48:43.08
there's not only the
grace we need from God.
00:48:43.28\00:48:45.75
It's the grace we
need from each other.
00:48:45.95\00:48:47.69
We need to be
willing to give grace.
00:48:48.52\00:48:50.63
We need to be
willing to be forgiving
00:48:50.83\00:48:53.13
and we also need to be
willing to be forgiven.
00:48:53.53\00:48:57.07
And as we give each other
the grace... Every gift that God
00:48:58.27\00:49:02.67
gives us... I
look at it this way:
00:49:02.87\00:49:04.34
Every spiritual
blessing that God gives us
00:49:04.54\00:49:06.51
it's not for us to hold onto and
selfishly keep for ourselves;
00:49:06.71\00:49:11.21
it is for us to
pass on to other people.
00:49:11.41\00:49:14.42
So when God gives us His grace -
00:49:14.82\00:49:17.02
His unmerited favor -
00:49:17.22\00:49:18.55
we are to pass
that on to others.
00:49:18.72\00:49:20.96
When God gives
us His forgiveness
00:49:21.16\00:49:22.89
we are to pass
that on to others.
00:49:23.09\00:49:24.79
When God gives us His compassion
we are to be compassionate
00:49:24.99\00:49:28.96
to others. And so it
has to be from the vertical
00:49:29.16\00:49:33.07
to the horizontal as
you were talking about
00:49:33.27\00:49:34.94
but this is one of
the ways that we do it.
00:49:35.14\00:49:36.81
What God gives us we
pass on to our spouse
00:49:37.21\00:49:40.08
or whoever else is
in the relationship
00:49:40.28\00:49:42.31
whether it's our
parents, children, whatever.
00:49:42.51\00:49:43.98
Yeah, grace is the fertilizer.
00:49:45.91\00:49:47.52
I love that phrase
too: grow in grace.
00:49:47.72\00:49:49.98
That unconditional
acceptance from God.
00:49:50.19\00:49:54.16
And it's when you're broken...
you know, when you have...
00:49:54.36\00:49:58.36
Acknowledging our
sin is the first step.
00:49:58.76\00:50:00.83
When you are fully
broken and truly repentant
00:50:01.03\00:50:03.80
for that sin there is
nothing more that you need
00:50:04.00\00:50:08.14
that can help you
grow because you feel like
00:50:08.34\00:50:10.61
it might be impossible.
And I think that if I had
00:50:10.81\00:50:12.81
anything to say I just
want to encourage people
00:50:13.01\00:50:15.54
out there because
my verse that we read
00:50:15.74\00:50:18.91
in I Corinthians,
II Corinthians about
00:50:19.11\00:50:21.25
"There is no temptation
but what's common to man. "
00:50:21.45\00:50:23.95
So I know that there are
other people who struggle
00:50:24.35\00:50:26.19
with their heart
straying or with marriages
00:50:26.39\00:50:29.62
as intimate and transparent.
Maybe there's a wall
00:50:29.82\00:50:33.73
that's between
you and your spouse
00:50:33.93\00:50:36.13
and that God
wants to help you heal.
00:50:36.33\00:50:40.24
He wants to
redeem your marriage.
00:50:40.44\00:50:41.90
He wants to help you overcome
in the area of your weakness
00:50:42.10\00:50:45.51
and that there are tools.
00:50:45.71\00:50:47.91
Those tools can be a third
party like we've mentioned.
00:50:49.08\00:50:51.95
People who are non-judgmental
00:50:52.35\00:50:54.42
but that can help you
grow and be accountable.
00:50:54.62\00:50:57.12
'Cause sometimes we've
seen that marriage partners can
00:50:57.32\00:51:01.09
become
ambivalent. They feel like
00:51:01.29\00:51:03.02
"Ah, it's not worth the hassle;
it takes too much work, etc. "
00:51:03.22\00:51:06.66
So one person's
ambivalent toward the other one.
00:51:06.86\00:51:09.26
So a third person
can be really helpful.
00:51:09.46\00:51:12.57
And then we'd read books.
James and I have read books.
00:51:12.77\00:51:15.30
We realize that
marriage is a school.
00:51:15.50\00:51:17.14
We didn't come knowing
exactly how to do this perfectly
00:51:17.34\00:51:19.77
and so let's read, let's study.
00:51:20.18\00:51:22.38
You know, let's
read up and brush up.
00:51:22.58\00:51:25.08
And that doesn't mean we give
our marriage 100% of our focus.
00:51:25.28\00:51:28.25
James and I are very busy
and passionate about the things
00:51:28.45\00:51:30.62
that we're doing,
but we definitely connect
00:51:30.82\00:51:33.49
and stay connected in these ways
00:51:33.69\00:51:35.69
by pursuing personal growth
within our marriage growth.
00:51:35.89\00:51:40.06
You know, making sure
that on a consistent basis
00:51:40.26\00:51:42.20
we are checking in with
each other and there's nothing
00:51:42.40\00:51:44.83
in our hearts that we're not
sharing with the other person.
00:51:45.03\00:51:48.20
Yeah. So can you just quickly
tell us some of the books
00:51:48.94\00:51:51.67
that you have found helpful?
00:51:51.87\00:51:53.84
Or if you can't remember
perhaps you can pass them on.
00:51:54.04\00:51:57.48
One of the books that we
mentioned was Not Just Friends.
00:51:59.35\00:52:02.32
We found that to be
really helpful for our specific
00:52:02.72\00:52:05.92
situation.
Another one that I read
00:52:06.12\00:52:08.16
that was really
helpful for me was
00:52:08.36\00:52:10.33
Discovering the Mind of a Woman.
00:52:10.53\00:52:12.66
And that one...
Now that would have...
00:52:13.06\00:52:14.80
That would have been a hard one!
00:52:15.00\00:52:16.67
That one taught me
to take responsibility
00:52:18.53\00:52:22.90
for the marriage relationship
00:52:23.10\00:52:24.44
like Christ took responsibility
for the marriage relationship.
00:52:24.74\00:52:27.81
Rise, can you think
of a couple of others?
00:52:28.01\00:52:29.81
Every Woman's
Battle I remember reading.
00:52:30.01\00:52:32.91
The Proper Care and
Feeding of Your Husband.
00:52:33.11\00:52:35.38
That was an important one too.
00:52:36.38\00:52:37.89
Actually I'm just going to
take a break right at the moment
00:52:41.16\00:52:43.53
because we have to
give our address roll.
00:52:44.46\00:52:46.43
And we're talking with
Pr. James and Rise Rafferty.
00:52:47.46\00:52:52.67
And we are talking
about relationships.
00:52:53.47\00:52:56.20
If you would like to find out
what some of these books are,
00:52:56.40\00:52:59.04
contact us and we'll pass
that information on to you.
00:53:00.08\00:53:03.11
And if you want to
contact us about anything else
00:53:03.91\00:53:06.11
to do with this program or
other programs that we make
00:53:06.31\00:53:08.65
we'd love to hear from you. And
these are our contact details:
00:53:08.85\00:53:11.09
Thank you for all you do
to help us light the world
00:53:51.39\00:53:53.90
with the glory of God's truth.
00:53:54.10\00:53:55.73
I hope you got those details.
00:53:57.30\00:53:59.17
And James and Rise
00:53:59.57\00:54:01.60
you know in the closing
moments of our program today
00:54:01.80\00:54:04.34
we just want to
ask you to re-cap.
00:54:04.54\00:54:06.27
Bring out some points
that you feel will help people
00:54:06.47\00:54:09.01
as they think about recon-
ciliation and re-building their
00:54:09.21\00:54:13.01
marriage and the home family.
00:54:13.21\00:54:15.28
We're all in the same boat.
00:54:16.69\00:54:18.52
You know, relationships
are key. They're foundational
00:54:18.72\00:54:21.06
for us as humans and
they're under attack.
00:54:21.26\00:54:23.99
And we shouldn't be
surprised if our relationships
00:54:24.19\00:54:27.30
aren't perfect. Even if
we're in pastoral ministry
00:54:27.50\00:54:30.20
work... wherever we are...
00:54:30.40\00:54:32.13
we need help with relationships.
00:54:32.33\00:54:34.77
And it can be messy.
00:54:34.97\00:54:36.47
Healing relationships,
fixing relationships,
00:54:36.87\00:54:39.31
remodeling
relationships can be messy.
00:54:39.51\00:54:41.44
And maybe we're thinking:
"Well I'd rather just not
00:54:41.64\00:54:43.71
deal with the mess. "
00:54:43.91\00:54:45.25
But yet the
plumbing needs to be fixed.
00:54:45.38\00:54:46.92
You know, that
window needs to be moved.
00:54:47.12\00:54:48.55
That wall needs to
be put up or taken down.
00:54:48.75\00:54:50.72
And so we need to be
willing to get through the mess
00:54:50.92\00:54:54.89
to get to the
place where this home
00:54:55.09\00:54:57.96
is what God wants it to be.
00:54:58.16\00:54:59.49
And a lot of that
of course takes place
00:54:59.86\00:55:02.10
in the trenches. So we
talked about some books
00:55:02.30\00:55:04.27
like Not Just Friends,
00:55:04.43\00:55:05.77
Discovering the Mind of a Woman,
00:55:05.97\00:55:07.47
Rise, you had a couple
books that you were sharing.
00:55:07.67\00:55:09.90
My Greatest Battle
or something like that?
00:55:12.44\00:55:14.68
What was it? Oh yeah, Woman's...
00:55:14.88\00:55:16.75
That's the one I
couldn't remember, but
00:55:16.95\00:55:18.28
The Proper Care and
Feeding of Your Husband.
00:55:18.41\00:55:20.42
And I'll remember the other
one and I can send that to you.
00:55:20.82\00:55:23.18
Every Woman's Battle.
00:55:23.39\00:55:25.72
Men are from Mars,
Women are from Venus.
00:55:25.92\00:55:28.06
The Five Love
Languages was phenomenal for us.
00:55:28.26\00:55:30.83
So a lot of these are books
00:55:31.59\00:55:33.56
that can help
us learn principles
00:55:33.76\00:55:36.40
that are Biblical. When I
read The Five Love Languages
00:55:36.60\00:55:38.17
for example I thought
00:55:38.37\00:55:39.93
"That's great, but
is that in the Bible? "
00:55:40.14\00:55:41.84
And recently we
did a 3ABN Camp Meeting
00:55:42.24\00:55:44.91
on the book of Hebrews
with the theme Something Better.
00:55:45.11\00:55:47.71
And I discovered that
that book is a relational book
00:55:47.91\00:55:50.58
from start to finish and
that the five love languages
00:55:50.78\00:55:53.52
are in the book of
Hebrews. And not only that
00:55:53.72\00:55:56.02
but there's two others in there.
00:55:56.22\00:55:58.25
And that was words I
mean not words of affirmation
00:55:58.45\00:56:01.09
words of
correction which is Hebrews 12
00:56:01.29\00:56:03.32
and commitment
which is Hebrews 13:5:
00:56:03.53\00:56:06.76
"I will never leave
you nor forsake you. "
00:56:06.96\00:56:08.40
These love
languages if we learn them
00:56:08.80\00:56:11.40
are the way we can communicate
love to other people.
00:56:11.60\00:56:14.17
To our spouse, to our
husband, to our children,
00:56:14.37\00:56:17.67
families, communities, etc.
00:56:17.87\00:56:19.54
We need to learn how to
love people in a language
00:56:19.74\00:56:22.44
that they can understand.
00:56:22.64\00:56:23.98
I'm going to just add to
that, I think it's important
00:56:24.01\00:56:26.82
that we look at this
topic. There may be people who
00:56:27.02\00:56:29.75
would be like: "Oh I would
never do anything like that
00:56:29.95\00:56:32.29
to my spouse. " And I'll
tell you: I was one of them.
00:56:32.49\00:56:34.72
Right? I would never!
00:56:35.06\00:56:36.39
And you don't realize how
susceptible and weak you are,
00:56:36.56\00:56:40.00
vulnerable you are at
certain times of your life, etc.
00:56:40.20\00:56:43.63
And so prevention
is always better than
00:56:43.83\00:56:46.74
trying to you know remodel.
00:56:46.94\00:56:48.94
And how can you just be
00:56:49.14\00:56:51.34
consistently
checking in with each other
00:56:51.54\00:56:53.61
and seeking to prevent some-
thing like this from happening
00:56:53.81\00:56:57.48
by guarding
those walls and windows
00:56:57.68\00:56:59.68
and making sure
that your home is secure.
00:56:59.88\00:57:01.78
Checking in... doing
that kind of maintenance.
00:57:02.18\00:57:04.62
I know that it's
very easy for somebody
00:57:04.82\00:57:08.82
else to try and
come into a relationship
00:57:09.02\00:57:11.43
because that's
what Satan's all about.
00:57:11.63\00:57:13.29
As you said, James
Satan is trying to destroy
00:57:13.70\00:57:16.97
relationships because
that is the building block
00:57:17.17\00:57:20.24
for the whole of society.
00:57:20.44\00:57:21.80
And many times you'll
find someone tries to come into
00:57:22.20\00:57:25.44
your personal space.
You've gotta take a step away.
00:57:25.64\00:57:28.38
You don't let them
stay in that position.
00:57:28.78\00:57:32.01
You have to let them
know at the beginning
00:57:32.21\00:57:33.88
"No, this is not on. "
00:57:34.08\00:57:36.08
We've been talking with
James and Rise Rafferty.
00:57:36.28\00:57:38.82
And I'm sure that you have
been helped by this program.
00:57:39.02\00:57:42.52
If you need any more details,
contact us. God bless you.
00:57:42.92\00:57:46.39