This is 3ABN Now
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with John and
Rosemary Malkiewycz.
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Hello and welcome to 3ABN Now.
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You know, we enjoy
doing these programs.
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And 3ABN being a faith
based ministry relies on money
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coming in from
people just like you
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who enjoy these
programs and support the work
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of seeing the
gospel go around the world.
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These programs are really
showing how people in their,
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during their
life step out in faith
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and do things
that are very different
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to what most people normally do.
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And we are talking
with Barry Chapman.
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In our recent program,
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we would talk to
Barry about Botswana.
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And that was an
interesting story.
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I really enjoyed it.
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But you know, from there,
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as a project
manager in Botswana,
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Barry was given a
bigger responsibility
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to become the ADRA
director in Uganda and Rwanda.
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And you know, those names
are synonymous with Idi Amin,
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something that happened there,
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the genocide, it
was a terrible thing.
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And it was at that time
that Barry Chapman was there
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with his wife and his children
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doing work in
that part of the world.
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So, Barry, welcome
again to the program.
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I'm looking forward
to hearing the story.
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But some of the scenes may
be a little bit distressing
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and the stories,
but they are real.
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And no matter where you go,
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even during the time
of the Second World War,
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we don't like hearing about
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what happened to the
Jews, but it did happen.
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And this happened in Uganda.
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So, Barry, we're looking forward
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to hearing what
you're going to share with us
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and the work you
did there in Uganda.
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Rosemary, Barry
has another verse,
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a verse for us.
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You have Revelation
22:14 for us this program.
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And this is actually
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one of John's
memory verses said,
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"Blessed are they
that do His commandments,
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that they may have
right to the tree of life,
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and may enter in
through the gates
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into the city."
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Isn't that a joyous thought?
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Wonderful.
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Why is that verse
special to you, Barry?
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Well, I guess, one
of the things that,
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you know, I'm
really passionate about
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is being present to
walk through that gate.
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And in life throws you
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some curveballs sometimes
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and it's not always easy.
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There are always some challenges
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that come in life.
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But the end goal
is what is important,
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where we are focused
and what the result will be.
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So I try to be
connected to Jesus every day.
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So that I've driven
a peg in the ground,
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and I'm going
forward, I'm not going back.
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Here Jesus told the
parable about the sheep
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and the shepherd and
the gate or the door.
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And he said that He is the door
or the gate to the sheep fold.
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And the thief is the one
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who tries to enter in
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through a window
or some other way.
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But the true shepherd
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enters in through
the door, the gate.
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And it says here that
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they may enter
in through the gates
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into the city.
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God's people will not be
trying to climb in a window.
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They will not be trying to find
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some other way to
get into the city,
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they will be
going through the gate,
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through Jesus is,
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the only way in
there is through Jesus.
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And there'll be
nobody trying to climb
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in through the windows
because there'll be nobody else
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but God's people going through
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in and out of the
city through Jesus.
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I like the thought too, Barry,
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that it doesn't
matter who you are,
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the invitation is for you.
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You have the same opportunity
to inherit eternal life.
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And you know, part
of what missionaries do
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as they go
around the world they,
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through their life example,
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reflect light,
the light of Jesus
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and the character of God,
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so that they too will be
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drawn into that beautiful city
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and be with God
throughout eternity.
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That's what the
Bible teaches us.
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That's the plan of salvation
that if you are watching,
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you want to
experience that, as Barry said,
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he put a peg in the ground
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and he's going straight forward.
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He's not turning back.
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And that's what
I encourage you do.
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And the Bible is the means
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and the way for
you to find that peg,
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that final goal to work to.
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So, Barry, you know,
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tell us you finished
your project in Botswana.
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And they asked you to be
the ADRA director of Uganda.
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Just tell us a little
bit about that transition
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and a little bit
about Uganda where you were?
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So Uganda is on
the equator, in Africa,
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about Central
Africa on the eastern side,
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there's the map.
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We headed for Kampala
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which is right on Lake Victoria.
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And beautiful part of the world,
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tropical, beautiful spot
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and it's
elevated so it's not hot,
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you know, not a
lot of high humidity.
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It's a pleasant climate.
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Very different to
where you're at Botswana?
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Very different. Very different.
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Though it stand on the lake,
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is that, does that
mean the lake's elevated?
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Yeah, the lake is elevated,
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it's about 3000 feet
if my memory is right,
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I can't remember exactly.
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That's quite high.
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It's quite a long
way up in the air.
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Yeah.
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Because it, you know,
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flows to the Nile River
and then all the way to Egypt.
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So it goes,
water goes a long way.
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You sort of think
because you're by a lake,
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you'd be at a lot of elevation.
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Yeah.
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And it's a big
lake, there's ships,
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big seagoing ships on the lake.
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They carry produce
from Tasmania to Uganda
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and across, so it's a big lake.
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Tanzania. Tanzania.
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Tanzania. I'm sorry.
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Yeah.
Otherwise, it's a long way.
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So you've moved to Kampala? Yep.
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What is
happening there in Uganda?
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So in Uganda, the
previous ADRA director
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had gone back to Canada.
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So they asked me to come
in and lead the team there.
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It was a team of one.
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What you?
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No, there's one other young guy,
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Santiza Kajubi,
excellent young man.
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And so, we had a
house and we had a car
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and we had a motorbike.
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And so we were set to dream big
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and to develop a program
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where we could
actually touch people's lives
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and make a difference.
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Now at this stage, this man,
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the ADRA director you
said has gone back to Canada,
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but he, there was no
actual ADRA Uganda, was it?
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There was a little
bit of activity there,
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but not a
tremendous lot of activity.
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So there was no
building or anything?
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Idi Amin had been
involved with his atrocities,
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up until about '79.
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And then another
gentleman, Milton Obote,
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he took over Uganda,
and through this time,
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there are a lot of atrocities.
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And eventually, things in about
1986 settled under Museveni,
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the guy who's been
in charge ever since
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and things stabilized,
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but still we're in
a state of confusion.
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A lot of schools were messed up,
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a lot of places were messed up.
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And it took time
for that to rebuild.
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So ADRA had been
there for a little bit
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trying to get some things going.
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But when I came, it was to try
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and step the
work up a little bit.
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Now, I asked you
what happened to Idi Amin,
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because I not know,
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being a young person
I really didn't know.
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And I don't know if a
lot of the viewers know
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what happened to him either.
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You said he was
forced into exile.
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So what happened was
the Tanzania government
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had got to the point of,
they said enough's enough.
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And so, they
mobilized their forces,
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and they chased Idi Amin
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and his troops out of
Uganda, up into Sudan.
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And as he left Uganda,
he killed most of the men.
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And so there were
thousands of widows,
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right on the
border town there Oraba,
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as you hit up into Sudan.
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And then he went off
to exile somewhere else.
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And so from then on the
country still stayed in,
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has always been
a troubled place.
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And then eventually
under Museveni things
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stabilized quite reasonable.
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Now, you're telling us
that you did something more
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when you were there?
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Which you went
there in '91? Yeah.
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You did
something for those widows.
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Now, this is
quite a while later?
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Yes, it is.
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Those widows,
their economic situation
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was pretty vulnerable.
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They didn't have money.
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They were struggling.
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And so I visited
there at one stage
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and they said to us, we
just need some livelihood,
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some way of
generating money to support us.
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So I said,
"What are your skills?
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What can you do?"
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And they said, "Well, we
know how to grow chilies,
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but we can't market them."
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So I said to them, "Well,
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I don't know much about chilies,
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but let me see what I can do."
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So I went away and
had a talk to a few people
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and found out that
the Shell oil company
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were buying chilies
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and the chili is
used for hardening steel.
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Isn't that extraordinary?
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Well, you can
understand if you've eaten them.
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So what we did was,
we mobilize these ladies
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and we would organize to
transport the chilies down,
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store them in storage
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and then sell
them in bulk to Shell
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and then take the
money back to the widows
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and it became a really,
really genuine little project.
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It's amazing.
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They must have been
very hot chilies though.
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Well, they were
hot. They were very hot.
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I wouldn't, I
didn't work on them,
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I left it to others.
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To harden steel of all things?
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Yeah, it's quite amazing,
some of the chemical processes.
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So, you know when
I think about that,
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Barry, you've got to,
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when you go to
a place like this,
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you got to be very open
minded with what you can do.
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Yeah.
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You got to have a broad vision,
not just a tunnel vision,
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otherwise you're not
going to achieve anything.
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So I could see
that as we moved around,
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around the country,
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I could see there
were lots of challenges.
00:10:15.84\00:10:18.21
And so, we ran the
risk of being blown away
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with the challenges.
00:10:21.38\00:10:22.72
So what we tried to
do was target and focus
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where things were that
we could make a difference.
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And as I looked,
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I noticed that
many, many schools
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were just made
of sticks and mud,
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just pushed
together with thatched roofs.
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And the children were just,
massive numbers of children.
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And so we set
about, figure it out.
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So we wrote a proposal
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and got some
funding to build 90 schools.
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Again, we could have
just built five schools.
00:10:48.51\00:10:51.41
But I thought, "No,
we'll leave this to the Lord
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to see what we can do here."
00:10:53.78\00:10:55.45
So we worked out a
plan where the people
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would make their own bricks,
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they would build
their own school,
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we'd supply the
cement, the nails, the timber,
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and the sheets
of iron, the doors,
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the desks and the windows,
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the windows were
just frames with bolts on.
00:11:05.96\00:11:08.76
And so, that was the way
we put the proposal together,
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we sent it off to a funder.
00:11:11.73\00:11:13.90
The Danish
government came on board
00:11:13.94\00:11:16.40
and funded that program.
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The total funding package over
00:11:17.97\00:11:19.51
quite a number of
years ended up being,
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I think, pretty close
to 10 million US dollars.
00:11:21.08\00:11:23.78
And we were able
through a number of years
00:11:23.81\00:11:27.18
to complete that project.
00:11:27.22\00:11:28.62
After I left Uganda, the
project was still running.
00:11:28.65\00:11:31.35
And the project got completed.
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And I think there
are over 90 schools
00:11:32.75\00:11:34.82
were actually built.
00:11:34.86\00:11:36.32
And so these communities,
00:11:36.36\00:11:38.33
many of them were
government schools
00:11:38.36\00:11:39.83
that we were building.
00:11:39.86\00:11:41.20
So I did a deal
with the government,
00:11:41.23\00:11:43.16
that at least
one-third of the schools
00:11:43.20\00:11:45.37
we built would be
government schools
00:11:45.40\00:11:47.94
and two-thirds would
be Adventist schools.
00:11:47.97\00:11:50.47
And so I negotiated
that to get that through.
00:11:50.51\00:11:52.87
I had to sit outside
00:11:52.91\00:11:54.24
the Minister of Education office
00:11:54.28\00:11:55.78
for two days straight
00:11:55.81\00:11:58.21
because they
refused to talk to me.
00:11:58.25\00:11:59.58
So I said, "I'm
not going to home
00:11:59.61\00:12:00.95
till you talk to me."
00:12:00.98\00:12:02.32
So I just sat there.
00:12:02.35\00:12:03.69
When I came back next
morning, I sat in there.
00:12:03.72\00:12:06.02
And eventually he called me
and he said, "Okay, I give up.
00:12:06.05\00:12:08.89
What do you want?"
00:12:08.92\00:12:10.26
And so, I told him.
00:12:10.29\00:12:11.63
He said, "All right,
00:12:11.66\00:12:12.99
so long as one of the
schools is in my electorate."
00:12:13.03\00:12:14.46
And I said, "All
right, there's no problem.
00:12:14.50\00:12:15.83
You nominate the school."
00:12:15.86\00:12:17.23
And so then the
project was developed,
00:12:17.27\00:12:18.90
and it was a very
successful project.
00:12:18.93\00:12:21.70
Now we've got a
photo of a school.
00:12:21.74\00:12:26.57
I don't know if
it's the same school,
00:12:26.61\00:12:28.08
but there's a before
type photo and an after photo,
00:12:28.11\00:12:31.38
the thatched school,
00:12:31.41\00:12:33.75
and then a concrete brick school
00:12:33.78\00:12:36.28
with a tin roof.
00:12:36.32\00:12:37.65
So that's, that's
the type of schools
00:12:37.69\00:12:39.59
that we found.
00:12:39.62\00:12:41.09
And there were
thousands of schools like that.
00:12:41.12\00:12:42.82
And some of them
are falling down?
00:12:42.86\00:12:44.19
Oh, many, many of them,
00:12:44.23\00:12:45.59
I had to replace
the thatch all the time.
00:12:45.63\00:12:47.80
And then that was the
design that everybody came up
00:12:47.83\00:12:50.67
with the brick building there.
00:12:50.70\00:12:53.13
So and the reason
they went for that design
00:12:53.17\00:12:54.90
is the parents were
keen that the windows
00:12:54.94\00:12:57.64
be high enough
00:12:57.67\00:12:59.01
so the children could
not look at the windows
00:12:59.04\00:13:00.71
while they're
sitting at their desks.
00:13:00.74\00:13:02.88
So we had a high window,
00:13:02.91\00:13:04.45
a breezeway for
air to flow through.
00:13:04.48\00:13:06.51
And the
children were not allowed
00:13:06.55\00:13:07.88
to look outside...
00:13:07.92\00:13:09.25
So they could concentrate?
00:13:09.28\00:13:10.62
So they could
concentrate on their work.
00:13:10.65\00:13:11.99
You know, that would
have been frustrating for me,
00:13:12.02\00:13:13.39
because when I was in school,
00:13:13.42\00:13:14.76
I was always interested
what was happening outside.
00:13:14.79\00:13:16.12
Yes.
00:13:16.16\00:13:17.49
You know, I see you
as a practical person,
00:13:17.53\00:13:18.86
Barry, because, you know,
00:13:18.89\00:13:20.23
the secret is, you
can have aid, right,
00:13:20.26\00:13:23.37
where people
just arrive and give.
00:13:23.40\00:13:26.17
But I think
there's a greater benefit
00:13:26.20\00:13:28.00
when people take possession
00:13:28.04\00:13:29.70
and value what they
have and be involved in it.
00:13:29.74\00:13:34.04
And I believe that's why you've
had success even in Botswana.
00:13:34.08\00:13:37.61
They had to build and
produce and do all those things
00:13:37.65\00:13:41.92
and the same as in the schools
that you're talking about.
00:13:41.95\00:13:45.75
The community, the
people were involved
00:13:45.79\00:13:47.69
in actually making it.
00:13:47.72\00:13:49.29
So it had value
and meaning to them.
00:13:49.32\00:13:51.39
It wasn't just built
there that we often do for them.
00:13:51.43\00:13:55.33
And they're more
likely to look after it.
00:13:55.36\00:13:57.47
Exactly, yeah.
00:13:57.50\00:13:59.33
Because I've put
something into it,
00:13:59.37\00:14:02.04
it becomes ownership.
00:14:02.07\00:14:04.57
And so they'll look after it.
00:14:04.61\00:14:06.17
If you just hand
things to people,
00:14:06.21\00:14:07.74
they don't look
after it so well.
00:14:07.78\00:14:10.05
So one of the issues
00:14:10.08\00:14:11.41
I found was the
people are so poor there.
00:14:11.45\00:14:13.21
So when we went there in 1991,
the folk didn't have a lot of,
00:14:13.25\00:14:18.09
they didn't
generate a lot of cash,
00:14:18.12\00:14:20.16
but they were very
good at doing stuff
00:14:20.19\00:14:22.42
with their hands.
00:14:22.46\00:14:23.79
And so diet was an
issue there as well.
00:14:23.83\00:14:26.59
So we talked to them about
00:14:26.63\00:14:28.76
what they are good
at, what they can do,
00:14:28.80\00:14:30.97
and what is
available in the market
00:14:31.00\00:14:32.73
and what's not
available in the market.
00:14:32.77\00:14:34.40
So we set out a
project to teach them
00:14:34.44\00:14:36.27
how to grow weeds as greens.
00:14:36.30\00:14:40.38
So what we had these people
00:14:40.41\00:14:42.51
growing the whole range of weeds
00:14:42.54\00:14:46.28
and we would grow
them in a straight line
00:14:46.31\00:14:48.45
and hoe them and
look after these weeds
00:14:48.48\00:14:50.69
and they would sell
them as greens in the market
00:14:50.72\00:14:52.72
and they made a
lot of money out of it.
00:14:52.75\00:14:54.62
Weeds? Is that right?
00:14:54.66\00:14:55.99
Weeds. What sort of weeds?
00:14:56.02\00:14:57.36
Any weeds that are edible.
00:14:57.39\00:14:58.73
You know, we in
Australia are handfed
00:14:58.76\00:15:01.36
with beautiful
stuff in our shops.
00:15:01.40\00:15:03.77
But in these places,
00:15:03.80\00:15:05.13
you don't get that
sort of same thing,
00:15:05.17\00:15:07.67
but there are a lot
of very good edible weeds
00:15:07.70\00:15:10.11
that are very
nutritious, high in iron,
00:15:10.14\00:15:11.87
high in many elements
that we need in our diet.
00:15:11.91\00:15:14.64
And you know what?
They grow and buy their own.
00:15:14.68\00:15:18.45
They're volunteers.
00:15:18.48\00:15:19.81
They will just, you
can't stop them and so.
00:15:19.85\00:15:21.18
They'll even grow
when it's not raining.
00:15:21.22\00:15:23.89
It's amazing.
00:15:23.92\00:15:25.25
So we encourage them to do that.
00:15:25.29\00:15:27.42
And lots of folk got
involved in that program,
00:15:27.46\00:15:29.92
and so the market
gradually filled up
00:15:29.96\00:15:32.49
with weeds as a green.
00:15:32.53\00:15:34.93
And it was really sought
after by a lot of people.
00:15:34.96\00:15:38.00
I thought everybody
could get their own weeds.
00:15:38.03\00:15:40.84
So you went there
as the ADRA director,
00:15:40.87\00:15:43.14
you had a nice
office and everything,
00:15:43.17\00:15:45.57
what did you have
to do to establish,
00:15:45.61\00:15:47.08
you know, to get
ADRA into Uganda?
00:15:47.11\00:15:49.11
You have to build the premises?
00:15:49.14\00:15:51.31
Yeah, there was no office there.
00:15:51.35\00:15:52.68
So I could, my vision was
that if we're going to take on
00:15:52.71\00:15:55.12
some of these bigger programs,
00:15:55.15\00:15:56.69
we need to have a good base.
00:15:56.72\00:15:58.39
And we need to be established.
00:15:58.42\00:16:00.02
So I had a talk to
our management team
00:16:00.06\00:16:04.16
and our leaders
and the church leaders
00:16:04.19\00:16:05.86
supported the idea
of building a building.
00:16:05.89\00:16:09.56
So they gave me a piece
of land and we got busy.
00:16:09.60\00:16:11.77
And so, we built a
building in the first few months
00:16:11.80\00:16:14.20
we were there.
00:16:14.24\00:16:15.57
We got some money
from ADRA, Australia
00:16:15.60\00:16:18.11
and from different other donors.
00:16:18.14\00:16:19.97
And we were able to build this.
00:16:20.01\00:16:21.41
We would buy those bricks
for about five cents each.
00:16:21.44\00:16:27.05
And they were
all handmade bricks,
00:16:27.08\00:16:28.95
and they were burned by
hand, are burnt locally.
00:16:28.98\00:16:32.09
And we would
build with the brick,
00:16:32.12\00:16:34.49
it was a solid building.
00:16:34.52\00:16:36.36
And it was quite a big building,
00:16:36.39\00:16:37.73
it had probably about 10
offices in it, maybe more.
00:16:37.76\00:16:40.50
And underneath it
had a big warehouse
00:16:40.53\00:16:42.80
we used as a customs warehouse.
00:16:42.83\00:16:44.83
That was a registered warehouse,
00:16:44.87\00:16:46.20
and it worked very well.
00:16:46.23\00:16:49.14
So, you know,
you're into that place
00:16:49.17\00:16:50.97
where is war torn?
00:16:51.01\00:16:52.34
There must have
been a lot of damage.
00:16:52.37\00:16:53.81
Did you see a lot of damage?
00:16:53.84\00:16:55.31
Yeah. It was a lot of damage.
00:16:55.34\00:16:57.81
But I think one of
the hard things for me
00:16:57.85\00:17:00.42
was initially was that
you drive down the road,
00:17:00.45\00:17:03.75
and you would see
these planks all lined up.
00:17:03.79\00:17:06.82
And on top of the planks,
they were filled with skulls.
00:17:06.86\00:17:10.86
And I didn't say
much about it for a while,
00:17:10.89\00:17:13.23
I thought I better
not ask him any questions.
00:17:13.26\00:17:17.03
And eventually I asked Santiza,
00:17:17.07\00:17:18.50
my young guy
who's working with me,
00:17:18.53\00:17:20.07
and he said,
"Well, these are the ones
00:17:20.10\00:17:22.40
that many of these
died in the Obote time
00:17:22.44\00:17:24.67
or in the Idi Amin
time, their bodies.
00:17:24.71\00:17:27.48
And lot of families had
lost their mom or their dad
00:17:27.51\00:17:29.68
or their uncle or somebody.
00:17:29.71\00:17:31.35
So they would go
and select a skull.
00:17:31.38\00:17:33.72
And then they would
take at home and bury it
00:17:33.75\00:17:35.98
as if it was their family member
00:17:36.02\00:17:37.49
not knowing who
he literally was.
00:17:37.52\00:17:39.85
And so while the years
00:17:39.89\00:17:41.62
we were there that
gradually disappeared.
00:17:41.66\00:17:44.06
And so a lot of folk
were able to be buried
00:17:44.09\00:17:47.46
respectfully and properly,
00:17:47.50\00:17:49.23
but not necessarily
knowing their names.
00:17:49.26\00:17:51.17
But just the skull?
00:17:51.20\00:17:52.53
Yeah. Very interesting.
00:17:52.57\00:17:54.40
It was interesting.
00:17:54.44\00:17:56.00
I thought it was a good thing
00:17:56.04\00:17:57.91
that the government
allowed the people to do,
00:17:57.94\00:18:00.68
because it enabled
closer to come to many families.
00:18:00.71\00:18:03.38
Yeah.
00:18:03.41\00:18:04.75
Now going back
to the building day.
00:18:04.78\00:18:07.98
We have a photo of the
opening of the building.
00:18:08.02\00:18:11.49
Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:11.52\00:18:12.85
And you're down there
standing at the lowest level.
00:18:12.89\00:18:15.69
Yeah.
00:18:15.72\00:18:17.06
And you've got all
these other people.
00:18:17.09\00:18:18.43
Some of them are whites,
but most of them are not.
00:18:18.46\00:18:20.70
Yep.
00:18:20.73\00:18:22.06
And did you say it's
a little guy was the one
00:18:22.10\00:18:24.30
who worked with
you in the front row?
00:18:24.33\00:18:25.73
Yeah, the guy,
not in the light suit,
00:18:25.77\00:18:27.80
but the one on
his right hand side.
00:18:27.84\00:18:29.17
Yeah, the short one. Yeah.
00:18:29.20\00:18:30.54
So that's Santiza Kajubi.
00:18:30.57\00:18:32.21
He's a beautiful
guy. He was a pastor.
00:18:32.24\00:18:34.54
And he came to work with me.
00:18:34.58\00:18:35.91
And I really
appreciated his input.
00:18:35.94\00:18:39.81
And several years later,
00:18:39.85\00:18:41.18
we were back in Australia,
he passed away, unfortunately.
00:18:41.22\00:18:44.19
And it was a sad, sad
time for him and his family
00:18:44.22\00:18:49.16
and for all of us.
00:18:49.19\00:18:50.53
But you could
see there the group,
00:18:50.56\00:18:52.69
there was some people,
some expatriates there.
00:18:52.73\00:18:56.46
So one of the
strengths I think about
00:18:56.50\00:18:58.50
running a program in
places in tough places
00:18:58.53\00:19:01.37
is to get really
good people around you
00:19:01.40\00:19:04.01
to actually bring
the program forward.
00:19:04.04\00:19:06.51
So we brought people in
from Sweden, from Australia.
00:19:06.54\00:19:11.55
Quite a lot of volunteers
come in as volunteers,
00:19:11.58\00:19:13.95
so if anyone is interested
00:19:13.98\00:19:15.55
in offering their
services as a volunteer.
00:19:15.58\00:19:17.85
Yeah.
00:19:17.89\00:19:19.22
There are great
opportunities to get involved
00:19:19.25\00:19:21.79
and go and serve.
00:19:21.82\00:19:25.53
To ADRA's projects.
00:19:25.56\00:19:26.90
In an ADRA program
somewhere, is highly valued.
00:19:26.93\00:19:30.77
Obviously, you've got to
get to the right country,
00:19:30.80\00:19:32.93
and there has to be
the right opportunity.
00:19:32.97\00:19:34.94
But there's just, it's
a blessing for everybody.
00:19:34.97\00:19:38.21
You have to have schools?
00:19:38.24\00:19:40.38
Not always, not necessarily,
if supervision is a good thing.
00:19:40.41\00:19:44.31
We were
fortunate, we had a guy come
00:19:44.35\00:19:46.15
who was an
engineer from Australia,
00:19:46.18\00:19:48.95
and he built a
bridge over this river
00:19:48.98\00:19:52.62
where when the
children would go to school,
00:19:52.65\00:19:55.12
that'd be fine.
00:19:55.16\00:19:56.49
And then while they're at school
00:19:56.52\00:19:57.86
there'd be a
rainstorm in the mountains
00:19:57.89\00:20:00.16
and then by the
time they got to go home,
00:20:00.20\00:20:02.13
the river was over
their head, and many of them
00:20:02.16\00:20:03.77
would drown
trying to get across.
00:20:03.80\00:20:05.13
Oh, no.
00:20:05.17\00:20:06.50
So this guy, the engineer,
00:20:06.53\00:20:09.30
he built a swing
bridge across that,
00:20:09.34\00:20:12.31
and it made a lot of difference.
00:20:12.34\00:20:14.88
Yeah, I'm interested to
listen to some of the projects
00:20:14.91\00:20:18.21
that you got involved with,
00:20:18.25\00:20:19.58
because being a
practical person,
00:20:19.61\00:20:21.95
the child survival project,
what was that all about?
00:20:21.98\00:20:25.95
So that was funded by USAID,
00:20:25.99\00:20:28.16
we were blessed
there, we had 10,
00:20:28.19\00:20:31.26
12, 15 million US dollars
00:20:31.29\00:20:33.83
is offered to us
over a period of time
00:20:33.86\00:20:36.16
for proposals that Bev
and I wrote to get funding,
00:20:36.20\00:20:39.33
and this project was
a USAID funded project.
00:20:39.37\00:20:42.50
And what did it found
00:20:42.54\00:20:43.87
is because AIDS
was really exploding,
00:20:43.91\00:20:46.74
around 50% of the people
in Uganda had AIDS of some,
00:20:46.78\00:20:51.11
at some level.
00:20:51.15\00:20:52.48
They were just
starting or whatever,
00:20:52.51\00:20:55.08
they wouldn't all die.
00:20:55.12\00:20:56.95
But along with
that, we identified that
00:20:56.99\00:21:00.09
there's in a
certain geographic area
00:21:00.12\00:21:03.06
of about 50 to 80,000 people,
00:21:03.09\00:21:05.76
there was a, in
every thousand babies
00:21:05.79\00:21:10.07
to their first
birthday 120 would die.
00:21:10.10\00:21:14.40
Okay, so in Australia, we
might have two, all right.
00:21:14.44\00:21:18.74
So we recognize
that was a big problem.
00:21:18.77\00:21:21.91
So we designed a program,
00:21:21.94\00:21:24.25
which is very simple to
actually educate the people
00:21:24.28\00:21:26.82
how they can
solve their problem.
00:21:26.85\00:21:28.62
So one of the big
foods in Uganda is matoke,
00:21:28.65\00:21:33.19
which is cooked banana.
00:21:33.22\00:21:35.22
So we organized this team,
and we, one of the local men,
00:21:35.26\00:21:40.13
Israel was our leader,
he did a fantastic job.
00:21:40.16\00:21:43.16
And so, it was his
idea, his concept, actually.
00:21:43.20\00:21:46.13
He said, I'm going
to teach these mothers
00:21:46.17\00:21:48.74
that the water
they cook the banana in
00:21:48.77\00:21:51.54
is actually to be used
for the baby to actually drink
00:21:51.57\00:21:55.78
for the first month.
00:21:55.81\00:21:57.51
And so that's what they did.
00:21:57.55\00:22:00.22
So in, after two years
of running the program,
00:22:00.25\00:22:03.72
the government authorities
contacted me and said, Barry,
00:22:03.75\00:22:06.92
we believe you are falsified.
00:22:06.96\00:22:09.06
The figures have been falsified
about deaths in this area.
00:22:09.09\00:22:12.73
Because now the death rate
has gone from 120 per 1,000
00:22:12.76\00:22:16.97
to less than 20 per 1,000,
00:22:17.00\00:22:19.03
since you've been
running this project.
00:22:19.07\00:22:20.90
And we believe
you're tricking us
00:22:20.94\00:22:23.10
to try and justify that
the project is successful.
00:22:23.14\00:22:27.38
So we said, let's check it.
00:22:27.41\00:22:29.64
So we checked it, we
found that it was right,
00:22:29.68\00:22:32.85
that we had dropped
the rate that dramatically
00:22:32.88\00:22:35.48
just by a simple implementation,
00:22:35.52\00:22:37.39
intervention just like that.
00:22:37.42\00:22:39.35
In two years? In two years.
00:22:39.39\00:22:40.72
So the water that
you cook the bananas
00:22:40.76\00:22:43.19
in was given to the babies?
00:22:43.22\00:22:44.96
Yep. And that
stopped the diarrhea.
00:22:44.99\00:22:47.43
And it stopped all the
other internal problems
00:22:47.46\00:22:50.47
that they were
having, bacterial problems,
00:22:50.50\00:22:52.60
other problems they were having.
00:22:52.63\00:22:54.17
And so the babies
were able to survive.
00:22:54.20\00:22:57.41
So who discovered that really?
00:22:57.44\00:22:58.97
It was a local guy
00:22:59.01\00:23:00.34
who was a medical
person, medical guy.
00:23:00.38\00:23:02.54
Israel is a local guy,
00:23:02.58\00:23:04.15
and he said, "Barry, I
think this is a winner.
00:23:04.18\00:23:05.51
We can do this."
00:23:05.55\00:23:06.88
I said, "Okay,
I'll support you."
00:23:06.92\00:23:08.42
So we talked to some consultants
00:23:08.45\00:23:10.09
from America.
00:23:10.12\00:23:11.45
They said, "He's on
the money. He's right."
00:23:11.49\00:23:13.96
And so he did a marvelous work.
00:23:13.99\00:23:16.83
So there was something that
that came out of the bananas?
00:23:16.86\00:23:20.53
No, just the fact though,
bananas had been boiled, yeah,
00:23:20.56\00:23:23.37
there would be some iron,
00:23:23.40\00:23:24.77
and some other elements
that would help the baby, sure.
00:23:24.80\00:23:27.54
But it was the fact
that it was purified water.
00:23:27.57\00:23:30.24
Ah!
00:23:30.27\00:23:32.24
Banana flavored. Yeah.
00:23:32.27\00:23:34.31
So many of these
villages don't have,
00:23:34.34\00:23:38.81
if they had not considered
things like sanitation.
00:23:38.85\00:23:41.78
So you would get
the village here.
00:23:41.82\00:23:43.82
And just over there would
be the village water supply,
00:23:43.85\00:23:47.52
and just near across
there would be the toilet.
00:23:47.56\00:23:49.62
Yeah.
00:23:49.66\00:23:50.99
And so we had the toilets
removed from the water supply.
00:23:51.03\00:23:54.30
And we got them from the water,
00:23:54.33\00:23:57.40
the boiled water
from the bananas.
00:23:57.43\00:23:59.10
Yeah, we had
the problem in Nepal
00:23:59.13\00:24:00.47
where there were no toilets,
00:24:00.50\00:24:02.97
but the areas where they used
00:24:03.00\00:24:04.84
were usually
along the waterways.
00:24:04.87\00:24:06.21
Yeah.
00:24:06.24\00:24:07.58
And in rainy season,
00:24:07.61\00:24:08.94
there would be
typhoid everywhere.
00:24:08.98\00:24:10.31
Yeah. Same issue, same issue.
00:24:10.35\00:24:12.45
So sometimes I
found that in Uganda
00:24:12.48\00:24:15.78
was a matter of
going to sitting down
00:24:15.82\00:24:17.82
under the mango tree
where the village elders,
00:24:17.85\00:24:19.95
the tribe, senior women,
and discussing their issues
00:24:19.99\00:24:23.93
and finding a solution
00:24:23.96\00:24:25.49
while you're
there without actually
00:24:25.53\00:24:27.20
having to
physically do anything.
00:24:27.23\00:24:29.26
And talk about opportunities
that exists for change,
00:24:29.30\00:24:32.30
and then get
them to implement it.
00:24:32.33\00:24:34.60
And that really gives you a buzz
00:24:34.64\00:24:37.24
when you see that and
see how they implement
00:24:37.27\00:24:38.67
and see a change.
00:24:38.71\00:24:40.04
So, you know, you did
the project in Botswana
00:24:40.08\00:24:42.31
with the gardens.
00:24:42.34\00:24:43.75
So I mean, was
that fresh in your mind
00:24:43.78\00:24:45.35
to help these
people do the same thing?
00:24:45.38\00:24:46.78
Yeah, it was.
00:24:46.82\00:24:48.15
So it was a matter of adapting
00:24:48.18\00:24:49.72
what the issues
were now in Uganda,
00:24:49.75\00:24:51.79
that they were
different than Botswana.
00:24:51.82\00:24:53.96
In Botswana the
population levels
00:24:53.99\00:24:55.82
are much lower.
00:24:55.86\00:24:57.19
And so you're not
going to get the problems
00:24:57.23\00:24:58.99
with sanitation issues.
00:24:59.03\00:25:00.80
And there, you know,
00:25:00.83\00:25:03.23
we were able to
deal it that way.
00:25:03.26\00:25:05.23
Did they have problems
with water generally in Uganda?
00:25:05.27\00:25:08.64
Yes, in some places.
00:25:08.67\00:25:10.01
They may have
had a water source,
00:25:10.04\00:25:11.37
but were there a lot of places
00:25:11.41\00:25:13.64
that didn't really have
good, good way of getting water?
00:25:13.68\00:25:16.91
Yeah, there's quite
a lot of Uganda is dry.
00:25:16.95\00:25:19.78
So when you go
further north toward Sudan,
00:25:19.81\00:25:21.15
it's quite dry.
00:25:21.18\00:25:22.52
So ADRA had a drilling rig.
00:25:22.55\00:25:24.49
We got a drilling rig organized.
00:25:24.52\00:25:26.19
And so we had a
team that went around
00:25:26.22\00:25:27.72
and in really
desperate situations,
00:25:27.76\00:25:30.73
we've put a bore down.
00:25:30.76\00:25:32.16
And so that was able
to help alleviate it.
00:25:32.19\00:25:34.53
We didn't help everybody,
but we were able to help some.
00:25:34.56\00:25:37.17
And say pretty
one of those big...
00:25:37.20\00:25:38.83
Yeah, the big
hand pump on it. Yeah.
00:25:38.87\00:25:40.77
And so this is only
drilling how far down?
00:25:40.80\00:25:43.51
Mostly it wasn't too far,
00:25:43.54\00:25:44.94
it might have been 50
meters, 100 meters at most.
00:25:44.97\00:25:47.38
Not 500? Not 500.
00:25:47.41\00:25:50.71
Botswana was 500. That's right.
00:25:50.75\00:25:52.75
That was a long way down there.
00:25:52.78\00:25:54.42
And what about the pygmies?
00:25:54.45\00:25:55.85
There's something to do
with you helping the pygmies.
00:25:55.88\00:25:57.75
We had a challenge,
because a lot of the pygmies
00:25:57.79\00:26:02.02
that were in
Uganda went to the Congo.
00:26:02.06\00:26:05.99
And then over
time, a lot of them
00:26:06.03\00:26:08.26
were there fighting that
was happening in the area.
00:26:08.30\00:26:11.63
A lot of them start to
migrate back into Uganda.
00:26:11.67\00:26:14.90
And the Ugandan
Government were quite concerned
00:26:14.94\00:26:16.87
because the pygmies
00:26:16.91\00:26:18.24
were going into
national forests.
00:26:18.27\00:26:20.21
And they were
killing all the monkeys
00:26:20.24\00:26:21.91
and eating them
00:26:21.94\00:26:23.28
and all this sort
of stuff was happening.
00:26:23.31\00:26:24.95
So the government
approached us and said,
00:26:24.98\00:26:27.35
"Look, we know you're
active in the area as an NGO.
00:26:27.38\00:26:30.89
Could you do
something with these pygmies?"
00:26:30.92\00:26:32.79
So we went and had meetings
with them and talk to them.
00:26:32.82\00:26:35.16
And after a long,
long, several discussions,
00:26:35.19\00:26:38.19
they agreed that
they would relocate
00:26:38.23\00:26:40.46
outside the forest in
the National Park area,
00:26:40.50\00:26:44.27
and we would set
them up to give them
00:26:44.30\00:26:46.50
a change of lifestyle.
00:26:46.53\00:26:48.27
So we provided some goats.
00:26:48.30\00:26:50.71
And we provided
mostly female goats,
00:26:50.74\00:26:55.14
and said, "You're only
allowed to eat the males,
00:26:55.18\00:26:58.11
you're not allowed
to eat any females."
00:26:58.15\00:27:00.45
And we taught them
how to grow gardens
00:27:00.48\00:27:02.38
and put them in little houses
00:27:02.42\00:27:03.79
with tin roofs
instead of thatch.
00:27:03.82\00:27:06.62
That'd be okay.
00:27:06.65\00:27:08.19
And so the pygmies
started to live there.
00:27:08.22\00:27:11.46
There was a bit of
resistance for a while,
00:27:11.49\00:27:13.06
but they settled eventually.
00:27:13.09\00:27:14.96
And so we helped
them bridge the gap,
00:27:15.00\00:27:16.87
if you like, to a
new life opportunity.
00:27:16.90\00:27:20.97
It had mixed success.
00:27:21.00\00:27:23.10
But the pygmies
that were stable,
00:27:23.14\00:27:25.47
these are ones that didn't
go walk about all the time,
00:27:25.51\00:27:28.08
they were actually successful.
00:27:28.11\00:27:29.94
But the families
that would go back to,
00:27:29.98\00:27:32.98
to Zaire or to Goma
00:27:33.01\00:27:34.82
or to some of these
other original bush places
00:27:34.85\00:27:37.49
in the Congo,
that made it difficult
00:27:37.52\00:27:40.32
because they would just
leave everything and go,
00:27:40.36\00:27:42.36
but those who stayed,
they did have success.
00:27:42.39\00:27:45.66
Because those who
went they wouldn't have
00:27:45.69\00:27:47.03
that constant income
coming from these animals
00:27:47.06\00:27:51.13
and things they have to
go and find their own food,
00:27:51.17\00:27:53.10
and they probably eat things
00:27:53.13\00:27:54.47
that were not going
to be good for them.
00:27:54.50\00:27:55.84
That's right.
00:27:55.87\00:27:57.21
They're very nomadic
in a way and that they,
00:27:57.24\00:27:58.87
they can sleep
tomorrow in a different place
00:27:58.91\00:28:01.21
if they wanted.
00:28:01.24\00:28:02.94
Yeah, for them
home is not a structure.
00:28:02.98\00:28:06.95
But we were trying
to instill that in them
00:28:06.98\00:28:09.58
and some of them
bought into that and they did.
00:28:09.62\00:28:13.02
So ADRA is continually
looking at the needs in that
00:28:13.05\00:28:17.13
in that area for the people.
00:28:17.16\00:28:18.53
Yeah.
00:28:18.56\00:28:19.89
And basically,
you were getting funds
00:28:19.93\00:28:22.63
to develop those activities
that would help those people.
00:28:22.66\00:28:26.87
Yeah, ADRA, Australia were
00:28:26.90\00:28:28.60
right behind us
funding that program.
00:28:28.64\00:28:30.24
Yeah.
00:28:30.27\00:28:31.61
And we had another
challenge because the pygmies
00:28:31.64\00:28:35.54
grew marijuana
professionally as well.
00:28:35.58\00:28:38.58
Oh, they had it there, too.
00:28:38.61\00:28:39.95
And so what would
happen is you would get all,
00:28:39.98\00:28:42.95
a lot of the
tourists would come for this
00:28:42.98\00:28:45.92
for their monthly supply.
00:28:45.95\00:28:47.66
And so, it was
always a challenge of trying
00:28:47.69\00:28:51.06
to work through what
the issues really are.
00:28:51.09\00:28:54.80
And so, of course,
00:28:54.83\00:28:56.43
the pygmies would be
using marijuana as well.
00:28:56.46\00:28:58.90
And so, it was
always a challenge
00:28:58.93\00:29:00.50
to be able to know
00:29:00.54\00:29:01.87
if you're talking to a
guy who was really cohere
00:29:01.90\00:29:05.14
or what state he was
in the day you were there.
00:29:05.17\00:29:07.34
So it was lots of challenges,
made life interesting.
00:29:07.38\00:29:11.11
So it's not only
in the Western world,
00:29:11.15\00:29:12.81
it's also in
other, all over the world?
00:29:12.85\00:29:15.38
It's right across. Yeah.
00:29:15.42\00:29:16.89
I always thought
it was only something
00:29:16.92\00:29:18.95
that grew wild in Nepal.
00:29:18.99\00:29:21.52
There in the Congo, you know,
00:29:21.56\00:29:24.49
you put in a plant, and
within a couple of days,
00:29:24.53\00:29:26.70
it's right up, you know,
00:29:26.73\00:29:28.06
just perfect growing conditions.
00:29:28.10\00:29:29.80
You know, you
mentioned you were involved
00:29:29.83\00:29:31.80
with building 90 schools,
00:29:31.83\00:29:33.70
but there would have been
a lot of homeless children
00:29:33.74\00:29:37.31
and, you know,
00:29:37.34\00:29:39.51
schools are very
important in educating.
00:29:39.54\00:29:41.88
So I can see that that was a,
00:29:41.91\00:29:43.45
that was a good thing
that you endeavored to do,
00:29:43.48\00:29:45.71
because if you give the kid
some hope and some learning,
00:29:45.75\00:29:48.98
they can progress
from where they are.
00:29:49.02\00:29:52.42
Sorry.
00:29:52.45\00:29:53.79
It was very difficult
because AIDS was now exploding.
00:29:53.82\00:29:57.43
And so all the NGOs
were all on top of themselves
00:29:57.46\00:30:01.00
and what we could do
for AIDS to help the orphans
00:30:01.03\00:30:04.13
that you're talking about, John.
00:30:04.17\00:30:05.50
Yeah.
00:30:05.53\00:30:06.87
And I would go
visiting around in the villages.
00:30:06.90\00:30:08.77
And often I'd go to houses
00:30:08.80\00:30:11.01
where there'd be
10 or 20 small graves
00:30:11.04\00:30:14.34
about this long at
the back of the houses
00:30:14.38\00:30:16.98
where the children had
got, had AIDS and died.
00:30:17.01\00:30:20.92
So if a child
lives to five or six,
00:30:20.95\00:30:23.85
they probably haven't got AIDS.
00:30:23.89\00:30:25.82
So probably a third of children
are going to die from AIDS
00:30:25.85\00:30:30.23
if they're affected
through the placenta
00:30:30.26\00:30:32.26
or at some stage during birth.
00:30:32.29\00:30:33.76
And so it's a tough thing.
00:30:33.80\00:30:35.13
So AIDS was now exploding.
00:30:35.16\00:30:37.57
We had all these
children in need,
00:30:37.60\00:30:39.43
and you going to some villages
00:30:39.47\00:30:40.90
and certain reki and
certain places in Uganda
00:30:40.94\00:30:44.71
where AIDS exploded.
00:30:44.74\00:30:46.88
That all the parents,
00:30:46.91\00:30:48.34
all the ones from
20 to 55 were all dead.
00:30:48.38\00:30:53.52
So grandpa and
grandma were there
00:30:53.55\00:30:55.92
and children under 15.
00:30:55.95\00:30:58.79
And that was a
really tough life.
00:30:58.82\00:31:00.66
Some families, there would be
00:31:00.69\00:31:03.12
six or eight or ten children,
and no adult supervision.
00:31:03.16\00:31:07.63
And so, that was a big challenge
00:31:07.66\00:31:09.96
for these countries in Africa.
00:31:10.00\00:31:12.13
Very big challenge.
00:31:12.17\00:31:14.37
This Bugema College.
00:31:14.40\00:31:16.84
What is Bugema College? Bugema.
00:31:16.87\00:31:19.34
So Bugema College is,
00:31:19.37\00:31:22.08
it's the equivalent of a
college start university,
00:31:22.11\00:31:26.72
a bit like we've
got here at Avondale,
00:31:26.75\00:31:28.98
it's a bit like that.
00:31:29.02\00:31:30.35
So it eventually
became a university
00:31:30.39\00:31:33.12
after we left Uganda.
00:31:33.15\00:31:35.19
So ADRA was very, very involved
00:31:35.22\00:31:37.09
in trying to upgrade
some of the buildings there.
00:31:37.13\00:31:40.76
Sometimes we got
funding, sometimes we didn't.
00:31:40.80\00:31:43.73
We did help them at the
Bugema secondary school.
00:31:43.77\00:31:46.77
The ADRA office in Sweden
00:31:46.80\00:31:51.67
funded a big program there.
00:31:51.71\00:31:53.78
Rigmor Nyberg,
00:31:53.81\00:31:55.14
she did a wonderful
job supporting that.
00:31:55.18\00:31:57.11
And so that school now
have over 1000 students,
00:31:57.15\00:32:01.18
massive, massive operation.
00:32:01.22\00:32:03.02
So these, the numbers are huge.
00:32:03.05\00:32:06.12
So when we look
at the population
00:32:06.15\00:32:08.59
now in Uganda,
00:32:08.62\00:32:10.36
it's pretty close to double
from the time we were there.
00:32:10.39\00:32:12.29
When we were there,
00:32:12.33\00:32:13.66
it's about
Australia in equivalent.
00:32:13.70\00:32:15.23
But now it's close to heading up
00:32:15.26\00:32:16.90
towards 50 million.
00:32:16.93\00:32:18.43
So that's and a lot of
the population is young.
00:32:18.47\00:32:22.80
Yes, because
there's certain age group,
00:32:22.84\00:32:24.17
there's no one there now.
00:32:24.21\00:32:25.54
That's right.
They were all gone.
00:32:25.57\00:32:26.91
And then the older
people are dying off.
00:32:26.94\00:32:28.28
So there was a big,
there's a big refugee issues
00:32:28.31\00:32:30.55
going on there as
well, wasn't there?
00:32:30.58\00:32:32.15
There is and it still continues.
00:32:32.18\00:32:33.52
So while we were there,
00:32:33.55\00:32:35.18
we were, the South
Sudanese war began.
00:32:35.22\00:32:38.95
And so we had all the
refugees flooding into Arua,
00:32:38.99\00:32:41.32
which is in the
north of the country.
00:32:41.36\00:32:43.06
And so, we got involved
00:32:43.09\00:32:44.59
in establishing
some programs there.
00:32:44.63\00:32:47.20
It was very
tinny at the beginning.
00:32:47.23\00:32:48.76
In fact, it was
pretty Joe average.
00:32:48.80\00:32:51.13
But after a while,
the program was ramped up
00:32:51.17\00:32:54.04
and a lot of NGOs got involved.
00:32:54.07\00:32:55.54
And I think recently,
in the last few years,
00:32:55.57\00:32:58.44
ADRA has been one of
the lead organizations
00:32:58.47\00:33:00.48
there now, supporting
them up in South Sudan.
00:33:00.51\00:33:03.24
So how do you feed these people,
00:33:03.28\00:33:05.01
you know, what sort of projects
00:33:05.05\00:33:06.72
did you develop to
feed some of these people?
00:33:06.75\00:33:08.88
What happens is you
have a lot of organizations
00:33:08.92\00:33:12.35
behind the scenes
that provide food like
00:33:12.39\00:33:15.82
World Food Program,
00:33:15.86\00:33:17.83
and so we would
tap in with them.
00:33:17.86\00:33:22.40
And World Food Program
would provide the food.
00:33:22.43\00:33:25.43
We do the distribution
and the management of it.
00:33:25.47\00:33:27.80
So that's how it works.
00:33:27.84\00:33:29.17
So we had that program
going in the north there.
00:33:29.20\00:33:32.74
And then we had another
program going in Karamoja.
00:33:32.77\00:33:36.95
Karamoja is in the north part up
00:33:36.98\00:33:39.78
with South Sudan and Kenya,
00:33:39.81\00:33:43.65
in that border up in
there, right in the corner,
00:33:43.69\00:33:45.95
and Ethiopia up that way.
00:33:45.99\00:33:47.46
And so, we were
very involved there,
00:33:47.49\00:33:49.92
because these people
were running out of food
00:33:49.96\00:33:53.33
on a regular basis.
00:33:53.36\00:33:54.70
So we had a big
feeding program there.
00:33:54.73\00:33:56.20
So what they would do is
these people have cattle.
00:33:56.23\00:33:59.03
So the women will
grow some maize or corn.
00:33:59.07\00:34:01.84
And then what would happen is,
00:34:01.87\00:34:06.07
they would take the
cows away for a month,
00:34:06.11\00:34:09.98
they take them
away with no food.
00:34:10.01\00:34:12.51
And so what they
had was a sharp stick
00:34:12.55\00:34:14.75
about that long,
like a knife and a cup,
00:34:14.78\00:34:18.32
they would stick
that into the cow's neck,
00:34:18.35\00:34:20.39
get a cup of blood, and
they would drink the blood.
00:34:20.42\00:34:23.36
And that's how
they would survive
00:34:23.39\00:34:25.39
for quite some time away.
00:34:25.43\00:34:27.83
And so, when we got involved
then we started to understand
00:34:27.86\00:34:31.17
the practices
of how things went.
00:34:31.20\00:34:34.04
We understood that
TB was out of control.
00:34:34.07\00:34:37.74
And so, and the TB
was from the cattle,
00:34:37.77\00:34:41.01
they would drink the blood
00:34:41.04\00:34:42.38
and so the Karamojong tribe
people would get it as well.
00:34:42.41\00:34:46.82
So there's all
these complications,
00:34:46.85\00:34:48.35
all these
factors floating around.
00:34:48.38\00:34:49.72
You're trying
to actually resolve
00:34:49.75\00:34:51.75
some traditional practices,
00:34:51.79\00:34:54.42
because they're actually
killing their own people.
00:34:54.46\00:34:56.86
So to sit down with the
elders and talk that through
00:34:56.89\00:34:59.13
and get them to understand
and then I'll check for TB,
00:34:59.16\00:35:02.96
which you can do,
all those sort of things
00:35:03.00\00:35:05.00
are all part of
some of the activities
00:35:05.03\00:35:07.30
that we supported.
00:35:07.34\00:35:09.20
So you had a project with Japan
with their fortified biscuits?
00:35:09.24\00:35:13.71
Yeah, that's
right, that was very good.
00:35:13.74\00:35:15.11
So ADRA, Japan helped us
a lot with things like that.
00:35:15.14\00:35:19.21
And so the ADRA office in Japan,
00:35:19.25\00:35:22.65
they get a
percentage of tax every year
00:35:22.68\00:35:25.89
is given to NGOs or
in this case to ADRA.
00:35:25.92\00:35:29.32
It may be very small percent,
00:35:29.36\00:35:30.69
but it builds up to
be quite a lot of money.
00:35:30.73\00:35:32.79
And so they sent
us numerous containers
00:35:32.83\00:35:35.30
with fortified biscuits,
00:35:35.33\00:35:36.67
and these were so beneficial,
00:35:36.70\00:35:39.10
especially to groups
like the Karamojong people,
00:35:39.13\00:35:41.60
some of these people.
00:35:41.64\00:35:42.97
Kept them alive, isn't it?
Yeah, it really helped them.
00:35:43.00\00:35:46.54
We have some, we
have a photo of a chief.
00:35:46.57\00:35:49.41
Yeah. He's from that tribe.
00:35:49.44\00:35:50.78
He's from Karamoja, there he is.
00:35:50.81\00:35:52.15
And he's an interesting guy.
So he's a chief from Karamoja.
00:35:52.18\00:35:55.65
These are interesting people,
they don't wear undergarments,
00:35:55.68\00:35:59.15
they just wear a sheet tied
00:35:59.19\00:36:00.69
with the knot on their shoulder.
00:36:00.72\00:36:02.69
So don't be surprised
if everything is revealed.
00:36:02.72\00:36:07.26
So they, you'll see
that he's got a little stool,
00:36:07.30\00:36:09.40
a little wooden stool.
00:36:09.43\00:36:10.77
Oh, I saw one of these.
00:36:10.80\00:36:12.13
And so, this is a
bit unusual, this guy,
00:36:12.17\00:36:14.47
because usually they
have a stool in one hand
00:36:14.50\00:36:16.54
and AK-47 in the other.
00:36:16.57\00:36:19.57
So the AK-47 is to actually
keep the cattle thieves away
00:36:19.61\00:36:23.61
from their cattle.
00:36:23.65\00:36:25.45
So you get a lot of
people stealing their cattle.
00:36:25.48\00:36:27.75
So that little stool,
00:36:27.78\00:36:29.22
he would sit
down at this meeting,
00:36:29.25\00:36:30.92
there's regular meetings.
00:36:30.95\00:36:32.29
So that's his
stool, he sits on all day.
00:36:32.32\00:36:34.92
Remember, sitting down
00:36:34.96\00:36:36.29
on his stool
with no undergarments,
00:36:36.32\00:36:37.66
it's a bit interesting.
00:36:37.69\00:36:39.26
So when the women
are working in the field,
00:36:39.29\00:36:42.70
again, with
very little clothing,
00:36:42.73\00:36:45.33
with just a sheet
tied up here, sometimes.
00:36:45.37\00:36:48.97
So it's really a
different way that people live,
00:36:49.00\00:36:52.94
we need to respect
that and understand that
00:36:52.97\00:36:55.21
that's why they're doing.
00:36:55.24\00:36:56.58
I remember, we
went to the markets,
00:36:56.61\00:36:57.95
and I was delighted to
go to the markets to see
00:36:57.98\00:37:00.05
what they would eat.
00:37:00.08\00:37:01.82
And to my surprise,
I'm glad I don't eat these.
00:37:01.85\00:37:04.79
But there I could have got
00:37:04.82\00:37:06.15
the best
barbecued rat on a skewer
00:37:06.19\00:37:08.26
that you could have ever found.
00:37:08.29\00:37:10.19
And so there they were.
00:37:10.23\00:37:12.06
Well, you know
what? No, thank you.
00:37:12.09\00:37:13.83
Necessity sometimes
people will do a lot of things.
00:37:13.86\00:37:16.80
That's right. Survival, John.
00:37:16.83\00:37:18.20
Survival.
00:37:18.23\00:37:20.04
You know, in 1994,
00:37:20.07\00:37:22.04
I'm sure the viewers
00:37:22.07\00:37:23.47
remember something
happened in Rwanda.
00:37:23.51\00:37:24.97
And you were
there, right, Barry?
00:37:25.01\00:37:26.34
Yeah.
00:37:26.37\00:37:27.71
And that, what
we're going to talk about
00:37:27.74\00:37:29.58
may not be a
really a pleasant thing.
00:37:29.61\00:37:32.11
But as I said
earlier, it's a reality.
00:37:32.15\00:37:34.42
You live through that
00:37:34.45\00:37:35.78
and were involved in
different aspects of it.
00:37:35.82\00:37:38.55
And I just want to talk
a little bit about that.
00:37:38.59\00:37:42.42
Because, you know,
00:37:42.46\00:37:43.79
we live in a world
that's changing very rapidly,
00:37:43.83\00:37:45.96
and we think this
couldn't happen in a world.
00:37:45.99\00:37:48.46
Surely, it couldn't happen,
but it did happen back then.
00:37:48.50\00:37:51.60
And maybe things will happen
00:37:51.63\00:37:52.97
that will not be
very pleasant for us
00:37:53.00\00:37:55.34
in time ahead soon, yeah.
00:37:55.37\00:37:57.57
So just talk us a
little bit in 1994
00:37:57.61\00:38:00.78
when you were
there, what sort of...
00:38:00.81\00:38:02.21
There was a big conflict arose?
00:38:02.24\00:38:04.38
And tell us a
little bit about that,
00:38:04.41\00:38:06.01
how that
started and where it go?
00:38:06.05\00:38:07.88
So you had two tribes,
00:38:07.92\00:38:09.55
so you've got the
Hutus and the Tutsis.
00:38:09.58\00:38:12.22
So the Hutus are
generally a shorter, stouter,
00:38:12.25\00:38:14.89
bunch of people
00:38:14.92\00:38:16.26
that Tutsis are a
taller group of people.
00:38:16.29\00:38:18.33
And what happened,
00:38:18.36\00:38:20.10
these people have been
warring for many, many years.
00:38:20.13\00:38:22.10
It's not something just
happened in five minutes.
00:38:22.13\00:38:23.47
Tribal wars?
00:38:23.50\00:38:24.83
Tribal wars for
many, many years.
00:38:24.87\00:38:26.20
And so the Tutsis, many of them,
00:38:26.23\00:38:28.47
the taller ones
had fled to Uganda.
00:38:28.50\00:38:30.97
And so they had stayed there
for 10, 20 years or whatever.
00:38:31.01\00:38:34.68
I'm not sure of
the time exactly,
00:38:34.71\00:38:36.11
but a long time.
00:38:36.14\00:38:37.48
And they had been there waiting
for an opportunity to come back
00:38:37.51\00:38:41.05
to take over the Rwanda again.
00:38:41.08\00:38:45.29
So during that
time, the government
00:38:45.32\00:38:48.26
who were now the Hutus
had got a bit organized
00:38:48.29\00:38:53.96
and they had
everybody registered,
00:38:54.00\00:38:55.43
and everybody home,
00:38:55.46\00:38:56.80
everybody's home in the country,
00:38:56.83\00:38:58.17
so they knew who you were,
00:38:58.20\00:38:59.53
and what tribe you belong to.
00:38:59.57\00:39:02.00
Which, when, I was gonna
say, when we went to Zambia,
00:39:02.04\00:39:05.64
the first thing
you asked someone was,
00:39:05.67\00:39:07.28
were they a Christian?
00:39:07.31\00:39:08.64
Or which church
they went to actually?
00:39:08.68\00:39:10.75
What church you go to?
00:39:10.78\00:39:12.11
And then you say,
what tribe are you from?
00:39:12.15\00:39:14.25
And they would all tell
you what tribe they were from.
00:39:14.28\00:39:16.45
It was very, very important,
the tribe they belong to.
00:39:16.48\00:39:19.45
It is important and in Rwanda,
they set about this plan,
00:39:19.49\00:39:25.46
the Hutus set about plan
to get rid of the Tutsis.
00:39:25.49\00:39:29.13
So if you're a Hutu,
00:39:29.16\00:39:30.50
and you're married to a Tutsi,
you had to kill your spouse.
00:39:30.53\00:39:35.07
If you went to a church,
00:39:35.10\00:39:38.21
where you had Hutus and Tutsis,
00:39:38.24\00:39:41.58
the Hutus at the
church had to kill the Tutsis,
00:39:41.61\00:39:44.61
regardless of the religion.
00:39:44.65\00:39:46.98
Same doesn't matter
00:39:47.02\00:39:48.35
if you're an
Adventist or Muslim,
00:39:48.38\00:39:50.29
or a Baptist or Catholic or
an Anglican or any religion,
00:39:50.32\00:39:55.06
the bloodline was much
stronger than the belief.
00:39:55.09\00:39:57.99
That's right.
00:39:58.03\00:39:59.36
And so, then they set
about taking over and killing.
00:39:59.39\00:40:03.87
So they would go to a house,
00:40:03.90\00:40:06.53
and they'd call
the people by name,
00:40:06.57\00:40:08.50
they would bring them out.
00:40:08.54\00:40:10.01
And then there in
front of the house
00:40:10.04\00:40:12.67
a lot of folk were executed.
00:40:12.71\00:40:15.41
And then what happened was,
00:40:15.44\00:40:16.98
the bodies were
thrown in the river.
00:40:17.01\00:40:19.41
And they floated down
the river 200 kilometers
00:40:19.45\00:40:21.88
until it got to Lake Victoria.
00:40:21.92\00:40:23.25
And that's when I got involved,
00:40:23.28\00:40:24.62
because I got a call
from the US Ambassador saying,
00:40:24.65\00:40:28.12
"Barry, come in quick."
00:40:28.16\00:40:29.49
So we went in, and he
told me what had happened,
00:40:29.52\00:40:31.93
that all these bodies...
00:40:31.96\00:40:34.96
We don't know the number,
00:40:35.00\00:40:36.33
excess of 100,000 had
drifted down the river.
00:40:36.36\00:40:39.87
And we're now in Lake Victoria.
00:40:39.90\00:40:42.57
And it was an issue, the
fish were eating the bodies
00:40:42.60\00:40:46.24
and all that sort of
stuff and we had to claim that.
00:40:46.27\00:40:47.81
Many were
washing up on the shores.
00:40:47.84\00:40:49.84
And so he asked me if
ADRA could take a shoreline,
00:40:49.88\00:40:52.85
the section of the
shoreline and gather the bodies.
00:40:52.88\00:40:55.58
How bigger the section?
00:40:55.62\00:40:57.02
About 20
kilometers. That's a big area.
00:40:57.05\00:40:58.95
Yeah, it was a big area.
00:40:58.99\00:41:00.32
And so, ADRA,
Australia donated a tractor
00:41:00.36\00:41:02.26
and a trailer
and so we got busy.
00:41:02.29\00:41:04.13
I got a team of people,
we rig them up just like
00:41:04.16\00:41:06.96
what you see in
with the COVID-19 thing
00:41:07.00\00:41:09.63
with all the gear and the gloves
00:41:09.66\00:41:11.30
and the boots and
the mask and everything.
00:41:11.33\00:41:13.90
Our cook was in designated area,
00:41:13.94\00:41:15.47
she wasn't allowed
to leave that area.
00:41:15.50\00:41:16.91
She had to stay
and she wasn't allowed
00:41:16.94\00:41:18.27
to touch anybody.
00:41:18.31\00:41:19.71
She was had to pass
the food under a barrier,
00:41:19.74\00:41:22.01
so that we kept distance.
00:41:22.04\00:41:25.25
You understood
the risk of disease.
00:41:25.28\00:41:26.61
Cholera was exploding.
00:41:26.65\00:41:29.35
So we knew we had to be very,
very fastidious in what we did.
00:41:29.38\00:41:33.22
So we got very organized.
00:41:33.25\00:41:35.82
And so we buried
over 1000 people,
00:41:35.86\00:41:38.79
we collected from the lake
and took them and buried them.
00:41:38.83\00:41:41.70
We got a photo of the lake,
00:41:41.73\00:41:44.87
and the bodies being
brought in on one of your boats.
00:41:44.90\00:41:48.20
That's right. That's how we did.
00:41:48.24\00:41:49.57
I mean, that's a massive
lake, it looks like the ocean.
00:41:49.60\00:41:52.41
It is big.
00:41:52.44\00:41:53.78
And the bodies would just
float across down the river
00:41:53.81\00:41:57.88
and across the lake to Uganda.
00:41:57.91\00:41:59.91
It takes you 45 minutes
to fly over that lake in a,
00:41:59.95\00:42:03.22
you know, it's a big plane.
00:42:03.25\00:42:05.42
And so it's a massive lake.
00:42:05.45\00:42:06.79
So you can see the bodies
00:42:06.82\00:42:08.16
that we've gathered
them and wrapped them,
00:42:08.19\00:42:09.69
and then we would take
them and bury them properly.
00:42:09.72\00:42:13.09
And here we are on one side.
00:42:13.13\00:42:15.10
Oh, there's you
digging a hole with someone.
00:42:15.13\00:42:17.37
You can see our team there,
all covered up and all busy.
00:42:17.40\00:42:23.20
And so it was not
an easy thing to do.
00:42:23.24\00:42:25.87
How many days or weeks
did you have to do this?
00:42:25.91\00:42:28.04
It was probably about a
month we were doing that.
00:42:28.08\00:42:30.65
And during that time,
00:42:30.68\00:42:32.65
the things in Kigali,
00:42:32.68\00:42:37.19
the capital of
Rwanda had changed.
00:42:37.22\00:42:39.89
By now, the Tutsis,
00:42:39.92\00:42:42.56
who many of them were in Uganda,
00:42:42.59\00:42:44.73
had moved back to Rwanda
00:42:44.76\00:42:47.40
and formed that
supported the army.
00:42:47.43\00:42:50.37
And so now they were
chasing the Hutus out.
00:42:50.40\00:42:53.23
So the Hutus... So
it turned the other way?
00:42:53.27\00:42:54.77
It did.
00:42:54.80\00:42:56.14
So the Tutsis,
where now the tall ones
00:42:56.17\00:42:58.04
were chasing the small ones.
00:42:58.07\00:42:59.74
And there's, they
took over the airport
00:42:59.77\00:43:02.71
and everything,
they can chase everybody
00:43:02.74\00:43:04.08
out of the main city.
00:43:04.11\00:43:05.71
This is after a lot of
the city had been destroyed.
00:43:05.75\00:43:08.25
A lot of people
have been killed,
00:43:08.28\00:43:11.39
numerous numbers,
you know, lots of people.
00:43:11.42\00:43:14.42
And so then they fled.
00:43:14.46\00:43:16.26
And so they fled
in all directions.
00:43:16.29\00:43:18.16
Most of them went to Goma
which is in, was, is the Congo.
00:43:18.19\00:43:23.93
And that's on Lake Kivu.
00:43:23.97\00:43:25.77
And on their way there,
00:43:25.80\00:43:27.14
they'd come across people
00:43:27.17\00:43:28.50
and they'd
continue their killings.
00:43:28.54\00:43:29.87
As they got to the border,
00:43:29.90\00:43:31.47
they were told to
leave their machetes
00:43:31.51\00:43:34.41
and all the killing
implements at the border.
00:43:34.44\00:43:37.88
Some did and some didn't,
00:43:37.91\00:43:39.25
you know these massive heaps
00:43:39.28\00:43:40.62
that you may
have seen on the news
00:43:40.65\00:43:41.98
at the time of these machetes
00:43:42.02\00:43:43.42
that they were
killing people with.
00:43:43.45\00:43:45.29
And the Adventist
Church had a university there.
00:43:45.32\00:43:48.86
Were just near
the border to Goma,
00:43:48.89\00:43:52.03
where these people,
00:43:52.06\00:43:53.43
all local people
had come to shelter.
00:43:53.46\00:43:56.20
And then all of a sudden,
00:43:56.23\00:43:57.90
these militia came
to do the killings.
00:43:57.93\00:44:00.67
And so they locked
everybody in the rooms
00:44:00.70\00:44:03.04
and they said come out one day,
00:44:03.07\00:44:04.41
when as they came
out, they just killed them.
00:44:04.44\00:44:06.68
So this was really tough.
00:44:06.71\00:44:08.04
We had some expatriates
there, they managed to get away
00:44:08.08\00:44:10.75
and managed to get
away from that place.
00:44:10.78\00:44:13.52
So this was not an easy time.
00:44:13.55\00:44:15.08
It was a very tough time.
00:44:15.12\00:44:16.45
We had a hospital in
the area, that the guns,
00:44:16.48\00:44:18.85
the helicopters
came with the gunships
00:44:18.89\00:44:21.02
and just mowed down the people,
00:44:21.06\00:44:22.79
just killed them,
just slaughtered them.
00:44:22.82\00:44:24.89
So there was some
terrible atrocities
00:44:24.93\00:44:26.56
that happened,
no doubt about that.
00:44:26.59\00:44:28.63
So then, while that
happened, just out of the blue,
00:44:28.66\00:44:32.60
I got a call from
the General Conference,
00:44:32.63\00:44:34.87
saying, "Barry,
we're in trouble.
00:44:34.90\00:44:37.07
We've got nobody
leading the team in Goma.
00:44:37.11\00:44:42.18
And we've had 15 cars stolen
from the ADRA office in Rwanda.
00:44:42.21\00:44:46.82
And there's a
whole lot of confusion.
00:44:46.85\00:44:48.98
Can you go and
build a field hospital
00:44:49.02\00:44:52.22
in the refugee camp,
00:44:52.25\00:44:54.42
1.5 million people now,
and build a water supply
00:44:54.46\00:44:58.39
and organize the
food distribution,
00:44:58.43\00:45:01.16
get involved in that."
00:45:01.20\00:45:02.66
So I said, "Give me 48
hours, send me $50,000.
00:45:02.70\00:45:05.60
And I'll go with 12
people and two trucks."
00:45:05.63\00:45:08.17
So that's what we did.
00:45:08.20\00:45:09.90
So two days later,
we're on the border,
00:45:09.94\00:45:12.84
we got to the
border at midnight,
00:45:12.87\00:45:14.24
we slept in the tracks.
00:45:14.28\00:45:15.68
The morning, I went
to go through the border
00:45:15.71\00:45:17.55
with all the
paperwork and everything.
00:45:17.58\00:45:18.91
And the guy said,
00:45:18.95\00:45:20.68
"You're not going through
until you pay some money."
00:45:20.72\00:45:24.52
So I said to him, "I
don't have money to pay,
00:45:24.55\00:45:27.69
you are not
authorized to pay you any money.
00:45:27.72\00:45:29.66
So he wanted the bribe, see.
00:45:29.69\00:45:31.89
So I said, "We're
about helping people.
00:45:31.93\00:45:34.96
This is God's
business, it's not my business.
00:45:35.00\00:45:37.67
So just write your name
down on a piece of paper,
00:45:37.70\00:45:40.17
and I'll talk to your
leaders and see what we can do."
00:45:40.20\00:45:43.10
And then I went out.
00:45:43.14\00:45:44.57
So he contacted me
about an hour later,
00:45:44.61\00:45:46.31
he said, "Go through."
00:45:46.34\00:45:48.88
So we managed to get
through without anything.
00:45:48.91\00:45:50.51
But as we went through
20 kilometers out of Goma,
00:45:50.55\00:45:53.11
we started coming across
just massive numbers of people.
00:45:53.15\00:45:59.12
As we look closely...
00:45:59.15\00:46:00.49
You mean dead? Now
these are alive now.
00:46:00.52\00:46:02.36
These all walking somewhere,
I don't know where to.
00:46:02.39\00:46:04.99
But this is an area
where there had been a volcano.
00:46:05.03\00:46:07.90
So it's black basalt rock,
00:46:07.93\00:46:10.77
that it's just it's
been there for many years.
00:46:10.80\00:46:13.37
And these people
are walking on the road,
00:46:13.40\00:46:14.84
just nowhere to go
trying to get a bit of wood
00:46:14.87\00:46:17.04
to build like a fire.
00:46:17.07\00:46:18.74
So as we got in further,
00:46:18.77\00:46:20.11
we started then coming across
those that have passed away.
00:46:20.14\00:46:22.54
And so the low,
00:46:22.58\00:46:23.91
the road was
littered with people,
00:46:23.95\00:46:26.01
meter or two meters
apart, just bodies all the way.
00:46:26.05\00:46:29.15
And we were just
horrified by what we saw.
00:46:29.18\00:46:32.82
And so, as we went in, you know,
00:46:32.85\00:46:35.19
it was pretty tough
going to that to meet you.
00:46:35.22\00:46:38.73
So we went in, and we went
00:46:38.76\00:46:40.10
and introduced
ourselves to the UN,
00:46:40.13\00:46:41.73
had a good talk with them.
00:46:41.76\00:46:43.10
And so we said to them,
00:46:43.13\00:46:45.57
we need to do something
pretty quick about these
00:46:45.60\00:46:47.77
removing these bodies,
00:46:47.80\00:46:49.40
because cholera
is going to just keep
00:46:49.44\00:46:51.41
on wiping everybody out.
00:46:51.44\00:46:53.41
And he said, "We
don't know what to do."
00:46:53.44\00:46:56.38
So we said to them,
"We'll have someone talk
00:46:56.41\00:46:59.58
to the leaders of the elders
of the people from Rwanda."
00:46:59.61\00:47:05.55
And he said, "No, not really."
00:47:05.59\00:47:08.16
So I said, "Let's
go and talk to them."
00:47:08.19\00:47:09.52
So we went over
00:47:09.56\00:47:10.89
and talk with a group of people.
00:47:10.93\00:47:12.26
And they said,
because I'd said to them,
00:47:12.29\00:47:15.46
"Look, if they agree,
00:47:15.50\00:47:16.97
we could have a fire
00:47:17.00\00:47:18.33
and we could do
what needs to be done."
00:47:18.37\00:47:21.14
And so the people, the
elders from Rwanda said,
00:47:21.17\00:47:23.97
"No, we believe
that if we're burnt,
00:47:24.01\00:47:26.51
we will go to hell."
00:47:26.54\00:47:28.24
So we went back
reported to the UN, they said,
00:47:28.28\00:47:30.38
"All right,
we're gonna bury them."
00:47:30.41\00:47:31.75
So the next day was Sabbath.
00:47:31.78\00:47:33.62
I was part of a group
00:47:33.65\00:47:35.05
where we buried
10,000 people that Sabbath.
00:47:35.08\00:47:37.82
It was a massive operation,
00:47:37.85\00:47:39.19
the US military
were there, other NGOs.
00:47:39.22\00:47:42.62
And it was a sad, sad time
to actually see what happened.
00:47:42.66\00:47:48.50
Now these people had died.
00:47:48.53\00:47:50.50
A lot of them without
need, because they had,
00:47:50.53\00:47:54.47
they had been moved away
from the water, and they...
00:47:54.50\00:47:58.41
Water was a problem.
00:47:58.44\00:48:00.74
And so, a lot of people
died just for lack of water,
00:48:00.78\00:48:03.48
dehydration, and
other causes as well.
00:48:03.51\00:48:06.31
So that was tough.
00:48:06.35\00:48:07.68
So then in we set
the field hospital up,
00:48:07.72\00:48:09.88
we did all the
things in the camp,
00:48:09.92\00:48:12.65
every night we'd bring 500
would die in the refugee camp,
00:48:12.69\00:48:15.89
we'd bring them out on sticks,
00:48:15.92\00:48:18.23
by the one side of the road,
00:48:18.26\00:48:19.59
and I was looking at life,
00:48:19.63\00:48:22.20
life can be pretty miserable.
00:48:22.23\00:48:23.90
So you've got
all the dead lined up
00:48:23.93\00:48:25.33
to be identified who they are.
00:48:25.37\00:48:27.04
On the other
side, they've got corn
00:48:27.07\00:48:28.70
and they're
selling it for breakfast.
00:48:28.74\00:48:31.47
So when you see that,
you think, how low can we go.
00:48:31.51\00:48:35.18
So it was pretty tough.
00:48:35.21\00:48:36.54
So you've got some
pictures of the refugee camp
00:48:36.58\00:48:39.95
and your field hospital,
00:48:39.98\00:48:41.32
field hospital was
down in the bottom corner
00:48:41.35\00:48:43.85
with the great green
tents with ADRA on the tents,
00:48:43.89\00:48:48.92
and up at the top
there's some of the water
00:48:48.96\00:48:50.69
that you got for them.
00:48:50.73\00:48:52.09
It's just one tank, and
there are others as well.
00:48:52.13\00:48:54.63
And then the big,
00:48:54.66\00:48:56.00
big tent up in
the top is the food,
00:48:56.03\00:48:58.63
the World Food Health
Program has put in there.
00:48:58.67\00:49:00.57
And so then we were involved
in that distribution as well.
00:49:00.60\00:49:02.70
And you look at that
bottom photo of the area
00:49:02.74\00:49:05.84
with little tents
that people were living in
00:49:05.87\00:49:07.98
and it's so barren.
00:49:08.01\00:49:10.05
It was tough place.
00:49:10.08\00:49:12.11
That was one of
the better sites,
00:49:12.15\00:49:14.05
there were some worse than that.
00:49:14.08\00:49:15.62
You know, Barry,
you were just talking
00:49:15.65\00:49:17.05
about this in a casual way.
00:49:17.09\00:49:18.89
But it was quite
dangerous, wasn't it?
00:49:18.92\00:49:20.86
For you would have
been quite dangerous
00:49:20.89\00:49:22.66
and then the
people going in there?
00:49:22.69\00:49:25.33
It was, John. So
on, we'd go then.
00:49:25.36\00:49:28.90
There's one guy, a local
guy who's working with me.
00:49:28.93\00:49:31.53
And he's recognized
an ADRA car from Rwanda.
00:49:31.57\00:49:34.47
He's in one of our cars,
it's got a sticker on it.
00:49:34.50\00:49:36.77
And he said, "I'm
gonna go and get it."
00:49:36.81\00:49:38.87
I said, "You don't."
00:49:38.91\00:49:40.61
So we had to watch carefully
00:49:40.64\00:49:42.24
and the guys that were managing
the car opened their jacket,
00:49:42.28\00:49:45.55
and they had
bombs all around here.
00:49:45.58\00:49:49.62
So there's a sort of things
00:49:49.65\00:49:50.99
that you just
got to be aware of.
00:49:51.02\00:49:52.35
So you're in,
you're in a dangerous spot.
00:49:52.39\00:49:54.82
You've got to not take risks.
00:49:54.86\00:49:56.93
So they've stolen your car,
00:49:56.96\00:49:58.29
but you weren't
going to take it back?
00:49:58.33\00:49:59.66
No, didn't take it back.
00:49:59.69\00:50:01.03
You didn't want to get blown up?
00:50:01.06\00:50:02.40
I just want to
go back, you know,
00:50:02.43\00:50:03.77
you've got a wife
00:50:03.80\00:50:05.13
and you got two children, right?
00:50:05.17\00:50:06.50
This is a real,
00:50:06.53\00:50:07.87
it's not sort of
movie or make believe,
00:50:07.90\00:50:10.21
this is what's going on.
00:50:10.24\00:50:11.91
It's something that I am
sure, many people would find
00:50:11.94\00:50:15.94
very hard to understand.
00:50:15.98\00:50:17.31
I do too, you know,
as a Christian, you know,
00:50:17.35\00:50:20.18
it's one thing to survive,
00:50:20.22\00:50:21.85
but to kill in that way is
very extraordinary, really.
00:50:21.88\00:50:26.32
But you know,
does your wife was,
00:50:26.35\00:50:28.69
you know, were you in touch
00:50:28.72\00:50:30.06
with your wife
while you're away,
00:50:30.09\00:50:31.43
or you just go away?
00:50:31.46\00:50:32.79
She doesn't know
if you're coming back?
00:50:32.83\00:50:34.16
So what would
happen was the US military
00:50:34.20\00:50:37.13
set up a base
at Entebbe Airport,
00:50:37.17\00:50:40.04
they would fly me in
on the Sunday evening,
00:50:40.07\00:50:43.10
and fly me back home to
Kampala on the Friday afternoon.
00:50:43.14\00:50:45.44
Okay.
00:50:45.47\00:50:46.81
So I was just
there for four days.
00:50:46.84\00:50:48.21
And I'll do the
organizer, your coordination,
00:50:48.24\00:50:50.48
and make it all happen
and then I'll fly back home.
00:50:50.51\00:50:53.01
And then after a few
weeks, instead of going to Goma,
00:50:53.05\00:50:55.85
I was then flying to Kigali.
00:50:55.88\00:50:58.15
So I'm just thinking,
now you're a Christian?
00:50:58.19\00:51:00.49
Where does your faith, you know,
00:51:00.52\00:51:02.82
when you see all these
things, what strengthened you
00:51:02.86\00:51:07.00
to keep going and
doing what you were doing?
00:51:07.03\00:51:08.86
Because, you know, you
could have easily said,
00:51:08.90\00:51:10.77
I'm out of here, I'm going home.
00:51:10.80\00:51:12.23
Especially so when you see,
00:51:12.27\00:51:13.60
to see these
Christians who are this tribe
00:51:13.64\00:51:16.00
killing those
Christians who were that tribe.
00:51:16.04\00:51:17.91
Yeah. What's
going on in your mind?
00:51:17.94\00:51:19.27
Well, I think one of the things
00:51:19.31\00:51:22.01
that I had to do was come
to grips with death there.
00:51:22.04\00:51:28.15
I had to be ready to serve.
00:51:28.18\00:51:30.89
But also what happens
if it goes pear-shaped?
00:51:30.92\00:51:33.52
What am I going to do?
00:51:33.56\00:51:35.22
So I had to
connect pretty seriously
00:51:35.26\00:51:37.53
with God in that time.
00:51:37.56\00:51:39.39
And, but at the same
time, not take risks.
00:51:39.43\00:51:42.46
I remember going
out to an orphanage
00:51:42.50\00:51:43.87
where the kids run
out of food, young boy,
00:51:43.90\00:51:46.23
14 years of old in a army suit
00:51:46.27\00:51:48.30
with an AK-47
thrusted in my chest
00:51:48.34\00:51:50.61
and said, "You go away, Mister?
00:51:50.64\00:51:52.41
I said, "I'm not going anywhere
till you push that gun away,
00:51:52.44\00:51:54.41
I'm not going to
tell you anything."
00:51:54.44\00:51:56.11
So you've got to
have the presence of mind
00:51:56.14\00:51:57.48
to be able to do that.
00:51:57.51\00:51:58.85
If you cower and
give him the power,
00:51:58.88\00:52:02.18
you know, he just has to pull
the trigger and it's all over.
00:52:02.22\00:52:04.69
So God gave me
that presence of mind
00:52:04.72\00:52:06.96
to be able to do that stuff.
00:52:06.99\00:52:08.32
And it was wonderful, really,
00:52:08.36\00:52:11.03
to see how God working on some
00:52:11.06\00:52:13.03
because not
everybody was so fortunate.
00:52:13.06\00:52:15.06
I worked with a
dentist, they came to the house,
00:52:15.10\00:52:18.57
brought him to the
front door and shot him,
00:52:18.60\00:52:21.04
a missionary, nice family,
00:52:21.07\00:52:22.87
beautiful people from Sri Lanka.
00:52:22.90\00:52:26.01
You just, they're the things
that you have to ask God, why?
00:52:26.04\00:52:30.65
We don't know all those answers.
00:52:30.68\00:52:32.91
We just have to be
connected to God strong enough
00:52:32.95\00:52:35.98
to be able to say,
"Yes, I believe in you.
00:52:36.02\00:52:40.82
But this is not fair."
00:52:40.86\00:52:43.63
You know, we're
going to take a break here.
00:52:43.66\00:52:45.03
You know, we've been
talking with Barry Chapman
00:52:45.06\00:52:47.53
who was the ADRA
director in Uganda and Rwanda,
00:52:47.56\00:52:51.63
and he's been sharing with
you some very personal things.
00:52:51.67\00:52:55.70
You know, most of us
don't really want to talk about
00:52:55.74\00:52:58.71
the horrific things
that we see in life.
00:52:58.74\00:53:01.31
But you know, as a Christian,
00:53:01.34\00:53:02.68
we know that truth is something
00:53:02.71\00:53:05.65
that helps others to
understand what goes on.
00:53:05.68\00:53:08.15
You know, if you're wanting
to support this ministry,
00:53:08.18\00:53:11.35
if you want to talk to us
00:53:11.39\00:53:12.72
or send us your
ideas of you know
00:53:12.75\00:53:17.16
what you think
about these program
00:53:17.19\00:53:19.13
and you'd like
to be more involved,
00:53:19.16\00:53:21.06
then you can do
so at this address.
00:53:21.10\00:53:22.66
If you would like to
contact 3ABN Australia,
00:53:27.20\00:53:29.40
you may do so in
the following ways.
00:53:29.44\00:53:31.37
You may write to 3ABN Australia,
00:53:31.41\00:53:33.78
PO Box 752, Morisset,
00:53:33.81\00:53:36.34
New South Wales 2264, Australia.
00:53:36.38\00:53:39.78
That's PO Box 752, Morisset,
00:53:39.81\00:53:43.39
New South Wales 2264, Australia.
00:53:43.42\00:53:46.62
Or you may call 02-4973-3456.
00:53:46.65\00:53:51.39
That's 02-4973-3456
00:53:51.43\00:53:55.50
from 8:30 am to 5
pm Monday to Thursday,
00:53:55.53\00:53:59.23
or 8:30 am to 12 pm
Fridays, New South Wales time.
00:53:59.27\00:54:04.47
You may also email us at
mail@3abnaustralia.org.au.
00:54:04.51\00:54:09.78
That's
00:54:09.81\00:54:11.15
mail@3abnaustralia.org.au.
00:54:11.18\00:54:17.59
Thank you for all you do
to help us light the world
00:54:17.62\00:54:20.22
with the glory of God's truth.
00:54:20.26\00:54:24.46
I hope you've
written those details down
00:54:24.49\00:54:26.19
because we do love to
have people write to us.
00:54:26.23\00:54:29.20
And we're very
grateful to those of you who do.
00:54:29.23\00:54:31.93
And let us know
00:54:31.97\00:54:33.30
how you're enjoying the programs
00:54:33.34\00:54:34.67
and to ask questions.
00:54:34.70\00:54:36.34
We're talking
with Barry Chapman.
00:54:36.37\00:54:38.41
And, Barry, you
mentioned just before
00:54:38.44\00:54:41.04
about this young boy
with the gun, a militia.
00:54:41.08\00:54:46.51
What was the...
00:54:46.55\00:54:47.88
You know, there
was a lot of problem
00:54:47.92\00:54:49.25
in with Rwanda
and Uganda and things,
00:54:49.28\00:54:52.65
not just with AIDS
but was what, you know,
00:54:52.69\00:54:55.32
the genocide in Rwanda.
00:54:55.36\00:54:56.69
There's places
where there are no adults.
00:54:56.73\00:55:00.00
The parents are just wiped
out and there's only children.
00:55:00.03\00:55:05.53
What impact that have on you?
00:55:05.57\00:55:07.67
So I was asked to go out
00:55:07.70\00:55:09.04
and have a look at an orphanage,
00:55:09.07\00:55:10.77
where that young fellows
thrusted AK-47 into my chest.
00:55:10.81\00:55:14.91
And that orphan, it was run
by some Adventist from Germany,
00:55:14.94\00:55:20.22
and they were, all the
adults had fled or been killed.
00:55:20.25\00:55:24.45
And the oldest
person there was 15.
00:55:24.49\00:55:26.32
There was 220,
00:55:26.35\00:55:27.69
I think maybe a few
more children there,
00:55:27.72\00:55:29.82
rows and rows of cots
and little bugs, and no food.
00:55:29.86\00:55:34.33
And so we were able
to get support for them
00:55:34.36\00:55:37.73
and get the orphanage going.
00:55:37.77\00:55:39.93
So that was typical of thousands
00:55:39.97\00:55:42.17
of thousands of children
around Rwanda at this time.
00:55:42.20\00:55:45.07
Their parents,
nobody really knew
00:55:45.11\00:55:46.84
where they were.
00:55:46.88\00:55:48.21
And so, a lot of
children had to go on.
00:55:48.24\00:55:51.31
And so...
00:55:51.35\00:55:52.78
I mean, how are they
going to look after themselves,
00:55:52.81\00:55:54.38
if someone
didn't come and start up
00:55:54.42\00:55:56.35
an orphanage for them?
00:55:56.38\00:55:57.95
One of the good
things is Red Cross
00:55:57.99\00:55:59.65
has a really good
program of connecting people
00:55:59.69\00:56:01.96
back to families.
00:56:01.99\00:56:03.32
And so a lot of children
00:56:03.36\00:56:04.69
were able to find
their grandparents
00:56:04.73\00:56:06.19
or their uncles, their
aunties, or something like that.
00:56:06.23\00:56:09.06
That's really helpful.
00:56:09.10\00:56:10.93
You know, Barry,
you returned in 1994,
00:56:10.97\00:56:13.20
back to Australia, right?
00:56:13.23\00:56:14.67
Thirty years on now,
00:56:14.70\00:56:16.77
what's happened just in summary,
00:56:16.81\00:56:18.77
very quickly,
00:56:18.81\00:56:20.54
with the Barolong
Vocational School,
00:56:20.58\00:56:25.35
how's ADRA, Uganda looked that.
00:56:25.38\00:56:27.42
You started to
work there, right?
00:56:27.45\00:56:29.38
So what is
happening now that work with,
00:56:29.42\00:56:31.75
what has happened to it?
00:56:31.79\00:56:33.12
In Rwanda.
00:56:33.15\00:56:34.49
Well, I think in Botswana,
the success, in Uganda,
00:56:34.52\00:56:38.93
the ADRA program has
grown, continue to grow.
00:56:38.96\00:56:42.50
They're doing
marvelous things there,
00:56:42.53\00:56:43.93
the ADRA directors they
have carried the work on,
00:56:43.97\00:56:46.27
and it's grown from
strength to strength.
00:56:46.30\00:56:47.94
So they don't
have just one director,
00:56:47.97\00:56:51.27
a worker, a motorbike and a car?
00:56:51.31\00:56:54.11
No, when I left
there, we have a staff
00:56:54.14\00:56:55.74
of over 100-120
people and 14 cars.
00:56:55.78\00:56:59.41
So that's what ADRA build
up from the time I was there.
00:56:59.45\00:57:01.18
What's happened
00:57:01.22\00:57:02.55
to the Adventist
work because of ADRA,
00:57:02.58\00:57:04.82
the work of ADRA
from the Adventist Church?
00:57:04.85\00:57:06.59
Well, I think,
it's complementing it.
00:57:06.62\00:57:09.06
I think it's an opening which
00:57:09.09\00:57:10.99
and that we see that
around the world that
00:57:11.03\00:57:13.26
is satisfying
the needs of people.
00:57:13.29\00:57:15.80
And as a result, people
will be drawn towards Christ.
00:57:15.83\00:57:19.03
Because you're
doing something practical.
00:57:19.07\00:57:20.67
And in each area, you have to do
00:57:20.70\00:57:22.14
what satisfies that area.
00:57:22.17\00:57:24.84
You know, Barry, we've
come to the end of the program.
00:57:24.87\00:57:26.57
I want to thank
you for coming on,
00:57:26.61\00:57:27.94
sharing something that
00:57:27.98\00:57:29.31
I didn't know
about and never heard.
00:57:29.34\00:57:30.68
And I'm sure, a lot of
viewers haven't either.
00:57:30.71\00:57:32.81
But we're glad that you came on,
00:57:32.85\00:57:34.62
because the truth
of the Word of God
00:57:34.65\00:57:36.28
will continue to grow in Africa
00:57:36.32\00:57:38.12
as we do more
work to help people.
00:57:38.15\00:57:40.26
So until next time,
may God richly bless you.
00:57:40.29\00:57:43.09
And thank you for joining us.
00:57:43.12\00:57:44.46