This is 3ABN NOW,
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with John and
Rosemary Malkiewycz.
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Hello. Welcome to
the program today.
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We're really glad
you've joined us as usual,
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and we really
thank you for being here.
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Don't we, John?
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Yes.
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We really enjoy
speaking to those people
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who are watching on
VAST across Australia.
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I think you will
enjoy this program.
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And we're very, very happy
to have this gentleman with us.
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We do because for today,
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we're going to
talk about something
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that's very, very important
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to Australians
and New Zealanders.
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We're going to
talk about the Anzacs.
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And we have
someone who is a historian,
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involved in
researching Anzac history
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is Professor Daniel Reynaud.
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That's right.
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And we're really
glad to have you here.
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It's just the name is French,
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so it's spelt a bit
different to how it's said.
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But welcome.
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Thank you.
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It's really good to have you.
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I'm looking forward
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to what we're
going to talk about.
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And I'm sure the
audience, the listeners,
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the viewers are
going to really...
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just get a lot of
wonderful information
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and be inspired by
what you say to us today,
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and what your
research has shown.
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It's very good.
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Daniel has
actually chosen a text,
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and it's found in 1 John 4:18.
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The Bible says,
"There is no fear in love,
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but perfect love
casteth out fear:
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because fear hath torment.
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He that feareth is
not made perfect in love."
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Interesting thought, isn't it?
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So, Daniel, tell us...
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Can you relate to us in
a little bit about this?
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Okay.
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Well, I grew up
in a religious home
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and a religious culture.
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And I'll be honest,
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it was a culture driven by fear,
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fear of punishment, fear of God.
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And, you know, watch it,
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behave this way in order to
get on the good side of God.
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And it wasn't
till I was in my teens
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that I actually
discovered the gospel,
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which said, "God's not my enemy.
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He's my friend.
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He came here in
order to bridge the gap
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between God and me
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because I couldn't bridge it,
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and He's not
someone to be afraid of."
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I grew up knowing God loved me,
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but I never knew
that He liked me.
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And this verse...
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That's an interesting concept.
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Yeah.
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This verse, for me,
encapsulates the fact
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that God loves and likes me.
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You know, He loves
me because He's God
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that's His job,
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but He actually likes me and...
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He enjoys your company.
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That's it.
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You know God's good
days when His inbox is empty,
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and He says to the angels,
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"So, you know,
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where's the next
batch of paperwork?"
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And they say, "No,
that's it, it's done."
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And he goes, "Beauty.
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I've got an hour free
to spend with Daniel,"
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or drop your own name in there
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because that's God's
definition of a great day.
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And he looks forward
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when we've got an
appointment with Him
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in prayer or something,
like we pray here at the studio.
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We have everybody joins together
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twos or whatever
at 12:20 for prayer.
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Yep.
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And I always think it,
"God is waiting for us.
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He has an appointment,
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and He's waiting for
us to come and join Him
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and talk to Him."
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Yeah.
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You know, you gave the concept
of God loves us, God likes us.
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But when you discover,
when you read the Word of God,
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you'll find that God wants you
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to be with Him
throughout eternity,
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just not now here not only
for this time on this earth.
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And that's
something you can all discover
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when you go and
look in the Bible.
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And I think one of the
other interesting things
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about the gospel is,
it's different to like
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you know, when you grew up.
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What you
wouldn't have been taught
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or what you had understood,
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and then you later
found something different.
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God is not trying to
keep us out of heaven.
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He's trying to get us in there.
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He's doing everything
to get us to be with Him.
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And it's not that we
have to tick all the boxes
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to get there.
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And we're not having
to do all the right things
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and not do a wrong thing.
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He's doing everything He can
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to make sure
we're there with Him.
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And so that's why
that verse appeals to me
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because it was a
transformation for me
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from a fearful
relationship to realizing,
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"Actually no, I'm not afraid.
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I have confidence,
not in me but in God."
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And I long for
everyone to experience
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religion and faith
through that assurance,
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that confidence
of God loving us,
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and there been no fear in that.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Now, before we go any further,
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I just want to
say to you at home
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that we're going to put
up an address for all later
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towards the end of the program,
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where we will
have contact details
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for Professor Reynaud.
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And I'm encouraging you now,
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make sure you've got a
paper and pencil ready,
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so you can write that down
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because when we
get into the story now
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and we end up
talking about the Anzacs,
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you are going to want
to ask him more questions
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or find out
more about the things
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that he's researched.
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So make sure you've got that.
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Go and get it now
before we do anything else,
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just to prepare people.
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So take us to those beginnings
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that you just mentioned before?
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Okay, so you've
mentioned my surname, Reynaud.
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It's...
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Which is spelt, Reynaud.
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Well, it's spells
exactly as it sounds.
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If you're French.
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If you're French indeed.
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So both my parents are French.
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My dad was born
and raised in Vietnam
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when it was a French colony.
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He went for Word War II
there with Japanese occupation.
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My mom, born and
raised in France,
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lived through German occupation
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and eventually
they moved to Australia.
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How did they meet?
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Dad's parents
sent him back to France
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on a wife hunting expedition.
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Oh, and he found one.
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Well, he was
there for six months
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and after five
months nothing had happened.
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And he was invited by a friend
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whose sister was
particularly attractive.
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So within the month they met,
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married and moved to Vietnam.
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That is interesting.
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Yes, it is.
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He's a Frenchman.
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Yes.
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Your wife must have...
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I mean your mother must
have been extremely trusting
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and adventurous herself.
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Yes, indeed,
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and a tremendous
amount of spirit.
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She's still a very dynamic lady.
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It reminds me of our friends
in Victoria, they're French.
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And they did amazing things too
that we won't think of doing.
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Yes.
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And they basically had a
very short, sharp courtship.
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Well, let me ask you.
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Did the son following
any of his dad's footsteps?
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No, the son was
far more moderate.
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Okay.
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So, how did they
come to Australia?
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Okay.
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So when the French
were forced out of Vietnam
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in the mid late 50s,
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my family went back to France,
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but my dad's best
friend came to Australia.
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Things didn't work
out in France for them
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and they met, all
he said, "Come here,
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it's tremendous opportunities."
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And so, yeah, the
family arrived in Australia
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and I was born
three months later.
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All right.
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So how many are before you?
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An older brother
and two older sisters,
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and then I have a younger sister
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also born here.
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All right.
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And so, what did your dad do?
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Pretty everything.
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He was always a scholar,
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but had very little
opportunity to do that.
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So he was a truck
driver in Vietnam,
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running convoys of
supplies to isolated farms.
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He was ambushed about
once a week on average
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by Communist guerrillas.
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I had, you know,
incredible experiences.
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If you want another
story, his life is amazing.
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We'll look into that.
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It sounds interesting.
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And in Australia,
we had a sheep farm
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that was totally unprofitable.
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That's amazing, you
know, take on a sheep farm.
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Oh, yeah.
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And have it
unprofitable in Australia.
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Yeah.
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Well, you know,
the stocking rate
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was one sheep per two acres,
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so you couldn't expect
to make money off that.
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And it was the end of
the Korean War wool boom,
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you know?
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The price collapsed
and wiped out my family.
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So dad did
various laboring jobs,
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and eventually
stumbled into teaching French
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at a high school.
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And then was
offered a lecturing position
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at Avondale University College
00:09:12.31\00:09:13.92
or Avondale College so it was,
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and got into the academic career
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that his personality,
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insight and skills
were always designed for.
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Yeah.
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So he found his place?
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He did, yeah.
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He stumbled.
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What about their spiritual life?
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Okay, so that's a
really interesting journey too
00:09:31.03\00:09:32.93
and then, this
deserves more time
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than I can give it.
00:09:34.50\00:09:35.84
Okay.
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Both of them
raised nominal Catholic.
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Dad being a philosopher,
read, read, read voraciously.
00:09:40.48\00:09:44.28
He read every
philosophy in the world,
00:09:44.31\00:09:46.45
including Gandhi in
the middle of a civil war
00:09:46.48\00:09:51.12
and decided not to
carry weapons anymore
00:09:51.15\00:09:54.12
and we sure be killed,
and was never shot out again,
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which in hindsight, he
saw as God rewarding him
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for a step in
the right direction.
00:10:02.03\00:10:03.37
Not inevitable, but
for him that was the case.
00:10:03.40\00:10:08.00
And then, in France
00:10:08.04\00:10:10.31
he was given a
leaflet for a group
00:10:10.34\00:10:14.54
who were taking talks on
00:10:14.58\00:10:16.38
how the Jews
preserved grape juice
00:10:16.41\00:10:18.25
without going alcoholic.
00:10:18.28\00:10:20.15
And as part of his
farm was a vineyard,
00:10:20.18\00:10:22.22
he went along,
00:10:22.25\00:10:23.59
and was a
Seventh-day Adventist group,
00:10:23.62\00:10:25.55
and that's how he
became a Seventh-day Adventist.
00:10:25.59\00:10:30.96
So that's an interesting journey
00:10:30.99\00:10:33.66
reading all
those different things.
00:10:33.70\00:10:35.06
And already he read
Gandhi, a presumed Buddhist.
00:10:35.10\00:10:39.67
He read all the
Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jewish,
00:10:39.70\00:10:43.04
Christian
existentialist, you name it.
00:10:43.07\00:10:46.34
There was hardly a philosopher
00:10:46.37\00:10:47.78
he couldn't
speak on intelligently.
00:10:47.81\00:10:50.48
And that really
informed his faith
00:10:50.51\00:10:52.88
because he had
a broad foundation
00:10:52.91\00:10:56.42
from which to
understand, you know.
00:10:56.45\00:11:00.56
He could talk to
people from other faith.
00:11:00.59\00:11:03.66
And also enrich himself.
00:11:03.69\00:11:05.59
But he could talk to them,
00:11:05.63\00:11:06.96
knowingly and help lead
them to what he had discovered
00:11:07.00\00:11:11.10
was the right and the truth?
00:11:11.13\00:11:13.13
Yep.
00:11:13.17\00:11:14.50
And so that would have put
him in an interesting position?
00:11:14.54\00:11:17.24
So your early school years
went through Christian schools
00:11:17.27\00:11:20.51
or just public schools?
00:11:20.54\00:11:21.88
Well, my first two
years was public schools,
00:11:21.91\00:11:24.25
but then the rest of
my primary and high school
00:11:24.28\00:11:28.62
and university was
at Avondale College
00:11:28.65\00:11:30.65
so, yeah, I grew
up on the campus.
00:11:30.69\00:11:33.49
That's right.
00:11:33.52\00:11:35.16
So you grew up in
this area after...
00:11:35.19\00:11:36.96
I grew up in a little bubble.
00:11:36.99\00:11:38.99
So you ended up
studying history.
00:11:42.13\00:11:46.17
Yes.
00:11:46.20\00:11:47.54
I did a teaching
degree with a History major,
00:11:47.57\00:11:49.80
English minor.
00:11:49.84\00:11:51.21
And when I graduated,
00:11:51.24\00:11:52.57
I got a job
teaching in New Zealand,
00:11:52.61\00:11:54.91
so I taught there in
three different schools
00:11:54.94\00:11:56.85
for 12 years and
I really loved that.
00:11:56.88\00:11:59.71
I really enjoyed the engagement
with high school students.
00:11:59.75\00:12:04.72
But somewhere along
the line you got married?
00:12:04.75\00:12:06.92
I did.
00:12:06.96\00:12:08.29
So I was teaching
at a boarding school
00:12:08.32\00:12:10.76
and my sister was there,
00:12:10.79\00:12:13.70
so I was literally
teaching my younger sister.
00:12:13.73\00:12:17.00
And partway
through the school year,
00:12:17.03\00:12:21.94
a student arrived from Auckland.
00:12:21.97\00:12:25.47
Her family had
returned to Europe.
00:12:25.51\00:12:29.14
And she was Romanian,
and she had nowhere to stay
00:12:29.18\00:12:32.38
and so someone paid for her
to come to the boarding school
00:12:32.41\00:12:34.78
where I was
because she'd have a home,
00:12:34.82\00:12:36.28
she could
continue her education.
00:12:36.32\00:12:37.65
She was actually
an older student,
00:12:37.69\00:12:39.39
having worked for a while
00:12:39.42\00:12:40.76
and trying to get into
New Zealand University.
00:12:40.79\00:12:44.26
I ran a singing and drama group.
00:12:44.29\00:12:47.06
My sister was part of that.
00:12:47.10\00:12:49.10
This new girl's roommate
00:12:49.13\00:12:50.50
was the lead
singer in the group.
00:12:50.53\00:12:52.33
We knew she sang well
00:12:52.37\00:12:53.94
to help her fit into
the new school environment
00:12:53.97\00:12:57.17
coming halfway through the year,
00:12:57.21\00:12:58.81
all the friendship
networks are set up.
00:12:58.84\00:13:01.08
So we invited her
on a few of our tours
00:13:01.11\00:13:03.81
and that's how we
got to know each other.
00:13:03.85\00:13:07.25
And so one thing led to another?
00:13:07.28\00:13:09.02
One thing led to
another and, yes,
00:13:09.05\00:13:11.35
I'm now an
extremely blessed husband.
00:13:11.39\00:13:13.76
That's a good...
00:13:13.79\00:13:15.12
How long have you been married?
00:13:15.16\00:13:16.49
Thirty five years.
00:13:16.52\00:13:18.26
Very good, any children?
00:13:18.29\00:13:20.53
Two kids, a boy and a girl.
00:13:20.56\00:13:22.90
Our son lives in Sydney.
00:13:22.93\00:13:24.27
He's photographer.
00:13:24.30\00:13:25.63
Our daughter is a
teacher in Melbourne.
00:13:25.67\00:13:28.44
Okay.
00:13:28.47\00:13:29.80
What are their names?
00:13:29.84\00:13:31.17
Etian, good French name.
00:13:31.21\00:13:32.54
Oh yes, Steven.
00:13:32.57\00:13:33.91
Steven and Bianca.
00:13:33.94\00:13:35.28
Okay.
00:13:35.31\00:13:36.64
All right.
00:13:36.68\00:13:38.01
And what's your wife's name?
00:13:38.05\00:13:39.38
Emmy or Emmanuella, actually.
00:13:39.41\00:13:40.75
She loves her name
because it means God with us.
00:13:40.78\00:13:43.35
Yes, that's fine.
00:13:43.39\00:13:44.72
So who's learned Romanian
and who's learned French?
00:13:44.75\00:13:48.92
Well, I must say my
wife's put more in than I have.
00:13:48.96\00:13:52.53
Okay.
00:13:52.56\00:13:54.16
She speaks
Romanian, German, English,
00:13:54.20\00:13:56.87
and she gets by in French,
00:13:56.90\00:13:58.33
although she won't
speak it in front of me,
00:13:58.37\00:14:00.90
but with Maria she gets on.
00:14:00.94\00:14:02.70
I understand a little Romanian.
00:14:02.74\00:14:04.07
She thinks you'll criticize her.
00:14:04.11\00:14:06.88
But you've been involved
in translating Romanian?
00:14:06.91\00:14:10.45
Yes, so my brother in-law
is a poet and a translator,
00:14:10.48\00:14:14.98
but English is his
third language as well.
00:14:15.02\00:14:18.22
So he asked me to
join a team to ensure
00:14:18.25\00:14:22.79
that the translations
worked well in English.
00:14:22.82\00:14:25.23
So I've been part of that team
00:14:25.26\00:14:27.33
and we've published five volumes
00:14:27.36\00:14:29.66
of Romanian
poetry in translation,
00:14:29.70\00:14:33.50
so usually Romanian texts
and English texts side by side.
00:14:33.54\00:14:38.64
These have had a huge impact
00:14:38.67\00:14:40.41
on the Romanian
community globally.
00:14:40.44\00:14:43.71
The books have won
awards for the translations
00:14:43.75\00:14:46.51
and it's been a love language.
00:14:46.55\00:14:49.98
And to be able to
revel in finding ways
00:14:50.02\00:14:54.02
to put into English
00:14:54.06\00:14:57.43
these Romanian
concepts and emotions,
00:14:57.46\00:15:01.03
it's been fantastic.
00:15:01.06\00:15:02.40
Of course, that wouldn't
be easy because translating,
00:15:02.43\00:15:04.40
I mean, trying to get one
as we're learning, you know...
00:15:04.43\00:15:10.31
Even in sub-school type things,
00:15:10.34\00:15:13.14
trying to get one word
sometimes from another language
00:15:13.17\00:15:17.45
and all the
different things that word...
00:15:17.48\00:15:19.81
The connotations.
00:15:19.85\00:15:21.18
Yeah, can mean
00:15:21.22\00:15:22.55
and trying to put it
into one word in English
00:15:22.58\00:15:25.25
that only just vaguely
gives you the whole glimpse
00:15:25.29\00:15:29.36
of what it's talking about.
00:15:29.39\00:15:31.36
It's not easy.
00:15:31.39\00:15:32.89
I remember years ago,
00:15:32.93\00:15:34.73
a girl I worked
with, she was Greek.
00:15:34.76\00:15:38.27
And she had bought
during lunch break a...
00:15:38.30\00:15:41.30
This is in
Melbourne, the Greek city.
00:15:41.34\00:15:43.94
She had bought
during lunch break
00:15:43.97\00:15:45.37
a new album by
a Greek performer.
00:15:45.41\00:15:49.81
And when she brought
it back to work, we said,
00:15:49.84\00:15:52.88
"Oh what are
the songs he sings?"
00:15:52.91\00:15:54.68
And she looked in and she said,
00:15:54.72\00:15:57.12
"Well, they are love songs."
00:15:57.15\00:15:58.75
We said, "Well, what are they?
00:15:58.79\00:16:00.12
You know, what
are some of them?"
00:16:00.16\00:16:01.49
And she said, "Well,
you wouldn't understand."
00:16:01.52\00:16:04.56
We said, "Tell us,
what are some of the names?
00:16:04.59\00:16:07.36
Just tell us the
names in English."
00:16:07.40\00:16:09.26
She said, "I can't."
00:16:09.30\00:16:11.30
And we said, "What
are you talking about?
00:16:11.33\00:16:13.60
Just tell us."
00:16:13.64\00:16:15.24
And she said, "Well,
I'll give you an example.
00:16:15.27\00:16:18.11
I can't really translate them.
00:16:18.14\00:16:19.47
If I tell you this one
here, in English it says,
00:16:19.51\00:16:23.21
your eyelashes shine."
00:16:23.24\00:16:25.15
And we all laughed.
00:16:25.18\00:16:26.51
She said, "Exactly,
00:16:26.55\00:16:27.88
it doesn't translate
into English very well."
00:16:27.92\00:16:29.85
And so, I've
often thought of that
00:16:29.88\00:16:32.69
and how hard it
is to translate ideas
00:16:32.72\00:16:34.82
from one
language into another one.
00:16:34.86\00:16:36.62
And I can imagine how
poetry will even be harder.
00:16:36.66\00:16:38.83
Yes.
00:16:38.86\00:16:40.20
Well, is harder.
00:16:40.23\00:16:41.66
But remember, I
grew up bilingual
00:16:41.70\00:16:44.63
between a
Latin-based language and English
00:16:44.67\00:16:47.97
and Romanian is a
Latin-based language.
00:16:48.00\00:16:50.57
The country gets its
name from the Romans, Romania.
00:16:50.61\00:16:53.98
And so while I don't
understand many words,
00:16:54.01\00:16:58.58
the way the language works,
00:16:58.61\00:17:00.18
and the
connotations of the words
00:17:00.22\00:17:02.58
are similar to French.
00:17:02.62\00:17:04.35
And I've spent my life switching
00:17:04.39\00:17:06.29
between one
language and another,
00:17:06.32\00:17:08.09
so it felt familiar to me
00:17:08.12\00:17:11.83
to be trying to find the
best English equivalents.
00:17:11.86\00:17:14.36
And by the way,
00:17:14.40\00:17:15.73
there were many
expert poetry translators,
00:17:15.76\00:17:18.87
who've said to
my brother in-law,
00:17:18.90\00:17:21.40
"You cannot
translate this poet."
00:17:21.44\00:17:24.47
And when we did, you
know, he leading the team,
00:17:24.51\00:17:28.74
they've gone, "Well,
00:17:28.78\00:17:30.35
we didn't
believe it could be done,
00:17:30.38\00:17:31.85
but this feels authentic."
00:17:31.88\00:17:33.62
So, you know, it's
been a great exercise.
00:17:33.65\00:17:35.95
Yeah.
00:17:35.98\00:17:37.32
Yeah, it would be interesting
to read some of them,
00:17:37.35\00:17:38.82
very good.
00:17:38.85\00:17:40.19
Wow, what an
exciting work that is.
00:17:40.22\00:17:43.46
And people who are watching,
00:17:43.49\00:17:46.19
who are Romanian
and speak English,
00:17:46.23\00:17:48.73
you may be interested
in some of those books
00:17:48.76\00:17:50.67
just so that you can see
00:17:50.70\00:17:52.50
how they've
managed to translate them
00:17:52.53\00:17:54.74
from one language to another.
00:17:54.77\00:17:56.10
That's really good.
00:17:56.14\00:17:57.47
I appreciate that.
00:17:57.51\00:17:58.84
Now, I have an interest
00:17:58.87\00:18:02.14
in Anzacs from family.
00:18:02.18\00:18:06.01
I'm sure that a
lot of Australians do.
00:18:06.05\00:18:09.12
So tell us how you got on
to this subject of Anzacs?
00:18:09.15\00:18:13.59
Okay, so for my doctorate,
00:18:13.62\00:18:17.39
I studied the way in
which Australian film
00:18:17.43\00:18:21.63
and television programs
00:18:21.66\00:18:23.13
had represented
the First World War.
00:18:23.16\00:18:26.60
For Australians
and New Zealanders,
00:18:26.63\00:18:28.54
I mean, we know
that culturally Anzac
00:18:28.57\00:18:30.94
is probably the most
important national narrative
00:18:30.97\00:18:35.58
that we have that
kind of encapsulates
00:18:35.61\00:18:40.18
the spirit of what it
means to be Australian or Kiwi.
00:18:40.22\00:18:43.75
Anzacs are
basically a national treasure.
00:18:43.79\00:18:45.79
That's it.
00:18:45.82\00:18:47.16
And they play a role in
the Australian National Life
00:18:47.19\00:18:50.73
that say the French Revolution
like playing in French life
00:18:50.76\00:18:54.76
or the American
Revolution in American society.
00:18:54.80\00:18:57.83
It is a culturally
defining national narrative.
00:18:57.87\00:19:02.70
So I was studying
how First World War
00:19:02.74\00:19:06.94
is portrayed in Australian films
00:19:06.98\00:19:08.31
and exploring the Anzac legend
00:19:08.34\00:19:10.35
as we call the Myth of
Anzac through these films.
00:19:10.38\00:19:13.62
I got to the end of it, I
published quite a bit on it
00:19:13.65\00:19:16.05
but, you know,
there's only so many movies.
00:19:16.08\00:19:20.52
So I was casting
around for something else
00:19:20.56\00:19:22.46
that would interest me and I go,
00:19:22.49\00:19:24.86
"Well, why don't I marry
the two interests that I have?
00:19:24.89\00:19:28.03
I am fascinated by war,
00:19:28.06\00:19:31.97
and I'm deeply committed
00:19:32.00\00:19:36.00
to spirituality to my faith.
00:19:36.04\00:19:39.51
Why not explore faith in war?"
00:19:39.54\00:19:43.41
And immediately I knew
there was a topic there
00:19:43.45\00:19:46.38
because the
foundational Australian scholar
00:19:46.41\00:19:51.12
in Anzac studies, Bill Gammage,
00:19:51.15\00:19:53.62
wrote an
incredibly important book
00:19:53.66\00:19:56.12
called The Broken Years in 1980.
00:19:56.16\00:19:59.19
Where he read the
diaries of a thousand soldiers
00:19:59.23\00:20:02.63
and code quotes from them,
00:20:02.66\00:20:05.57
and used it to explore
00:20:05.60\00:20:09.14
their experience of war.
00:20:09.17\00:20:12.47
And in the
introduction, he said,
00:20:12.51\00:20:14.74
"There are three
silences in their diaries,
00:20:14.78\00:20:19.78
sex, politics, and religion."
00:20:19.81\00:20:23.35
And he said, "The third
is the most surprising."
00:20:23.39\00:20:26.35
Yes.
00:20:26.39\00:20:27.72
That would be.
00:20:27.76\00:20:29.42
And I thought, "I've
just been gifted a topic.
00:20:29.46\00:20:32.83
I'm interested in religion.
00:20:32.86\00:20:34.20
I'm interested in faith.
00:20:34.23\00:20:35.56
I'm interested in the Anzacs."
00:20:35.60\00:20:36.93
So I thought, "At
least 10% of Australians
00:20:36.97\00:20:41.17
in 1914 went to church.
00:20:41.20\00:20:44.14
So on average,
about 10% of the Anzacs
00:20:44.17\00:20:46.91
must have been
religious people."
00:20:46.94\00:20:50.91
So I began looking
for primary sources
00:20:50.95\00:20:56.35
that would help me
and I started easy.
00:20:56.38\00:20:59.72
I read the diaries of chaplains.
00:20:59.75\00:21:02.32
I figured if anyone
talked about religion,
00:21:02.36\00:21:04.39
it was bound to be the chaplain,
00:21:04.43\00:21:05.76
so that's where I started.
00:21:05.79\00:21:07.30
And now I've read
00:21:07.33\00:21:09.20
probably more than 1,200
soldiers' diaries and letters
00:21:09.23\00:21:13.70
and it's been a rich discovery.
00:21:13.74\00:21:18.74
And talking about chaplains,
00:21:18.77\00:21:21.78
you have written
a number of books,
00:21:21.81\00:21:23.28
and one of them
is about a chaplain.
00:21:23.31\00:21:26.82
I'm going to pick it up,
The Man the Anzacs Revered,
00:21:26.85\00:21:32.72
and this book is about McKenzie,
00:21:32.75\00:21:36.76
hence William McKenzie.
00:21:36.79\00:21:38.39
Yes.
00:21:38.43\00:21:39.76
And so he was not a
Seventh-day Adventist,
00:21:39.79\00:21:42.16
but he was a Salvation
Army officer, wasn't he?
00:21:42.20\00:21:45.03
He was, yes.
00:21:45.07\00:21:47.14
Was he
Australian or New Zealand?
00:21:47.17\00:21:50.04
Good question.
00:21:50.07\00:21:52.11
He's a Scotsman,
but an Australian Scot.
00:21:52.14\00:21:54.88
He was proud of his...
00:21:54.91\00:21:56.61
But Australia is
full of migrants so...
00:21:56.64\00:21:57.98
Isn't it?
00:21:58.01\00:21:59.35
We're all migrants,
unless we're indigenous.
00:21:59.38\00:22:02.28
But he was proud to
the end of these days
00:22:02.32\00:22:06.12
to be Scottish heritage,
00:22:06.15\00:22:07.72
but intensely
Australian as well.
00:22:07.76\00:22:10.96
And so this book is
through his diaries written
00:22:10.99\00:22:14.83
because of his diaries or...
00:22:14.86\00:22:16.20
Yes. Look, it's a combination.
00:22:16.23\00:22:17.73
It's everything I
could find on the man
00:22:17.77\00:22:19.80
what he wrote himself,
00:22:19.83\00:22:21.17
but also what others
had written about him.
00:22:21.20\00:22:23.57
And it was a spin
off from my researcher.
00:22:23.61\00:22:26.31
It wasn't what I
was trying to find,
00:22:26.34\00:22:29.34
but his story
was so exceptional.
00:22:29.38\00:22:32.78
It is...
00:22:32.81\00:22:34.58
He's one of these
larger than life characters
00:22:34.62\00:22:36.92
that he leaps off the page.
00:22:36.95\00:22:39.62
And his impact was so great
that a number of commentators
00:22:39.65\00:22:44.23
considered him the most famous
00:22:44.26\00:22:47.60
Anzacs of them
all to the Anzacs,
00:22:47.63\00:22:52.23
but also incredibly
well known in Australia.
00:22:52.27\00:22:54.60
He was a
celebrity, no doubt about it.
00:22:54.64\00:22:57.04
And I'm thinking, "Hang on.
00:22:57.07\00:22:58.87
Here's a man, who was
a celebrity in his day
00:22:58.91\00:23:01.74
for his work as
an Anzac chaplain,
00:23:01.78\00:23:04.51
and we've never heard of him."
00:23:04.55\00:23:05.88
Exactly.
00:23:05.91\00:23:07.25
We've all heard of Simpson
and his donkey for Australian.
00:23:07.28\00:23:11.35
Numbers of studies
have been done that showed
00:23:11.39\00:23:13.32
that Simpson actually
wasn't famous at Gallipoli.
00:23:13.36\00:23:16.73
He was not
particularly well-known at all.
00:23:16.76\00:23:19.93
He became famous
because we needed propaganda
00:23:19.96\00:23:23.73
to encourage men to go to war.
00:23:23.77\00:23:26.17
He was a medic who
saved lives, who was killed,
00:23:26.20\00:23:30.94
carrying wounded men on a donkey
00:23:30.97\00:23:32.54
that Christ's
symbolism was great.
00:23:32.57\00:23:35.31
So they puffed up
the story in Australia.
00:23:35.34\00:23:39.05
But he wasn't
famous on the battlefield.
00:23:39.08\00:23:41.45
He wasn't even the only man
00:23:41.48\00:23:42.82
to use donkeys
on the battlefield.
00:23:42.85\00:23:44.39
Now, he's got a statue
00:23:44.42\00:23:45.75
out in the front of
the Australian War Memorial
00:23:45.79\00:23:48.79
and everybody knows Simpson,
00:23:48.82\00:23:50.76
but nobody knows McKenzie.
00:23:50.79\00:23:52.29
Now he...
00:23:52.33\00:23:53.66
I'm not putting Simpson down.
00:23:53.70\00:23:55.03
Simpson's work was good,
but this guy was the legend.
00:23:55.06\00:23:59.87
And if he's
alleged to the Anzacs,
00:23:59.90\00:24:03.27
then why don't
we know his story?
00:24:03.30\00:24:06.11
Very true because
I hadn't heard of him
00:24:06.14\00:24:08.68
until the book.
00:24:08.71\00:24:10.85
Interestingly enough,
00:24:10.88\00:24:12.81
the man who wrote
the foreword for me,
00:24:12.85\00:24:14.65
another scholar
in religion and war,
00:24:14.68\00:24:17.35
said that he
often asks Salvationists
00:24:17.39\00:24:19.69
if they've heard of him,
00:24:19.72\00:24:21.06
and he's often found
that they don't know.
00:24:21.09\00:24:24.49
My mum was a
Salvation Army officer
00:24:24.53\00:24:26.76
when she was young.
00:24:26.80\00:24:28.13
All right.
00:24:28.16\00:24:30.03
Well, he's just
an astonishing story.
00:24:30.07\00:24:33.70
A man of incredible
energy and vitality,
00:24:33.74\00:24:37.84
who transformed the
lives of thousands of men,
00:24:37.87\00:24:41.14
and yeah, an easy
man to talk about.
00:24:41.18\00:24:46.48
And it sounds like
a good book to read
00:24:46.51\00:24:49.52
if he leaps off the pages?
00:24:49.55\00:24:50.89
Well, I think so,
but then I wrote it.
00:24:50.92\00:24:55.29
I'm sure that
there will be people
00:24:55.32\00:24:57.59
who particularly were involved
00:24:57.63\00:25:00.30
and have a connection
would like to know about it.
00:25:00.33\00:25:03.47
So if you're interested
later on at the address roll,
00:25:03.50\00:25:06.27
we can give you
that information.
00:25:06.30\00:25:09.04
Yeah.
00:25:09.07\00:25:10.41
So, you write a...
00:25:10.44\00:25:12.11
You know you went
through looking at chaplains
00:25:12.14\00:25:14.71
and you ended up
writing that book.
00:25:14.74\00:25:16.08
Yes.
00:25:16.11\00:25:17.45
What led you on to
start writing about
00:25:17.48\00:25:21.08
individual soldiers?
00:25:21.12\00:25:22.78
Right, well that
was always my intention.
00:25:22.82\00:25:26.39
I started with the chaplains
because I needed an easy entry.
00:25:26.42\00:25:30.03
And Gammage had said,
"There's no evidence."
00:25:30.06\00:25:32.86
So, you know, it was a needle
in a haystack kind of stuff.
00:25:32.89\00:25:35.70
So I started where the
evidence was and I thought,
00:25:35.73\00:25:37.73
"These chaplains
will mention people
00:25:37.77\00:25:40.04
and also if their
diaries have survived."
00:25:40.07\00:25:42.94
In the end I discovered that
the catalog in the War Memorial
00:25:42.97\00:25:46.24
sometimes commented
on who spoke on religion.
00:25:46.27\00:25:48.98
And I began to read those
00:25:49.01\00:25:50.35
and then I
started reading at random.
00:25:50.38\00:25:52.38
In fact,
00:25:52.41\00:25:53.75
Gammage's book is stuffed
full of religious comments.
00:25:53.78\00:25:56.69
He couldn't see the
evidence under his nose.
00:25:56.72\00:25:59.39
That's interesting.
00:25:59.42\00:26:00.76
And this is partly
00:26:00.79\00:26:02.12
why I've pursued
this with such passion
00:26:02.16\00:26:03.49
because Australians
are cautious about religion
00:26:03.53\00:26:07.30
in the public sphere.
00:26:07.33\00:26:09.36
When Australia was founded,
00:26:09.40\00:26:11.57
you know whites
first arrived here.
00:26:11.60\00:26:14.00
They came from a culture
00:26:14.04\00:26:15.37
where religion was
a source of conflict,
00:26:15.40\00:26:18.57
Anglicans versus Catholics,
00:26:18.61\00:26:21.41
the nonconformist
religions against the Anglicans
00:26:21.44\00:26:24.21
and it was a battleground.
00:26:24.25\00:26:26.28
And there was a few things
00:26:26.31\00:26:27.72
they determined not to do
in Australia and that was,
00:26:27.75\00:26:30.85
they didn't want
to repeat the mistakes
00:26:30.89\00:26:33.09
of the culture they came from.
00:26:33.12\00:26:34.49
So they tried to avoid
too much of a class structure.
00:26:34.52\00:26:38.86
They also tried to avoid
00:26:38.89\00:26:40.23
too much of a
religious division.
00:26:40.26\00:26:43.16
I mean, for example,
in the Australian bush,
00:26:43.20\00:26:47.00
your nearest neighbor might
be 5, 10, 15 kilometers away,
00:26:47.04\00:26:50.47
30 kilometers away.
00:26:50.51\00:26:51.84
A hundred.
00:26:51.87\00:26:53.51
And if they were
Catholic and you are Anglican,
00:26:53.54\00:26:56.68
you certainly didn't want
to have a conflict with them
00:26:56.71\00:26:59.85
because they might
need you in a crisis
00:26:59.88\00:27:02.12
and you'll definitely need them.
00:27:02.15\00:27:04.05
So why put
religion up as a barrier?
00:27:04.09\00:27:06.59
So Australians
have removed religion
00:27:06.62\00:27:09.12
from the public conversation
00:27:09.16\00:27:11.43
so successfully that
we've persuaded ourselves
00:27:11.46\00:27:14.50
that we're not religious.
00:27:14.53\00:27:16.77
When in fact, the
rates of belief in God
00:27:16.80\00:27:19.83
or higher power
00:27:19.87\00:27:21.74
are as high in Australia
as they are in America,
00:27:21.77\00:27:24.04
which is a famously
overtly religious country.
00:27:24.07\00:27:27.18
You know, in the US,
00:27:27.21\00:27:28.54
you can
basically talk to anybody.
00:27:28.58\00:27:31.41
There's very few
people you couldn't have
00:27:31.45\00:27:33.65
some conversation
about God with that person.
00:27:33.68\00:27:38.15
So it's not that
Australians are less religious.
00:27:38.19\00:27:40.56
It is that we are less
comfortable doing so publicly.
00:27:40.59\00:27:46.19
So much so that
as I said we believe,
00:27:46.23\00:27:48.23
we're not religious.
00:27:48.26\00:27:49.86
And our historians have
largely taken a secular approach
00:27:49.90\00:27:53.94
to Australian history.
00:27:53.97\00:27:55.97
We don't discuss
religion as a factor,
00:27:56.00\00:27:58.91
as a force in
Australian history.
00:27:58.94\00:28:01.91
So, you know, Gammage is
following on the tradition
00:28:01.94\00:28:04.78
in Australians history of going,
00:28:04.81\00:28:06.18
"No, they're not religious."
00:28:06.21\00:28:08.12
I read the diaries of
a thousand soldiers too
00:28:08.15\00:28:10.22
for my second book.
00:28:10.25\00:28:13.39
And I found that
well over a third
00:28:13.42\00:28:16.66
talk about religion.
00:28:16.69\00:28:19.13
That's huge. I'd expect to 10%.
00:28:19.16\00:28:22.30
And it's 38-39%
00:28:22.33\00:28:25.93
and obviously not all
of them are in favor of it.
00:28:25.97\00:28:29.97
But I think it
would be fair to say
00:28:30.01\00:28:32.51
that somewhere between
00:28:32.54\00:28:35.54
20-25% of the Anzacs
00:28:35.58\00:28:38.81
had a commitment
to faith of some kind,
00:28:38.85\00:28:43.82
and a quarter to 1/5th,
that's a big proportion,
00:28:43.85\00:28:47.16
you know, we talk
about the Bush Legend,
00:28:47.19\00:28:51.99
the Bushmen origin
of the Anzacs, you know?
00:28:52.03\00:28:54.73
Yeah.
00:28:54.76\00:28:56.10
Well, only one in
five of the Anzacs
00:28:56.13\00:28:57.87
was from the bush,
00:28:57.90\00:29:00.07
four in five were
from cities and towns.
00:29:00.10\00:29:01.84
Yeah.
00:29:01.87\00:29:03.20
I was surprised to find that.
00:29:03.24\00:29:04.64
Australians were an
urban nation in 1910.
00:29:04.67\00:29:09.38
Well,
00:29:09.41\00:29:10.75
that's the same
proportion of Christians.
00:29:10.78\00:29:13.88
Yet we characterize
the Anzacs as Bushmen.
00:29:13.92\00:29:17.85
Or bronze Anzacs down
the beach saving people.
00:29:17.89\00:29:22.42
But we don't
characterize them as Christian.
00:29:22.46\00:29:25.39
About one in five of the Anzacs
was actually born in the UK.
00:29:25.43\00:29:30.90
The Anzac spoke with the
accents of the British Isles,
00:29:30.93\00:29:34.30
including William McKenzie,
00:29:34.34\00:29:35.67
who still had a
Scottish birth to his Aussie.
00:29:35.70\00:29:39.14
But we eliminate
00:29:39.17\00:29:40.98
the Britishness from the Anzacs,
00:29:41.01\00:29:43.24
because they're
supposed to define
00:29:43.28\00:29:44.78
the archetypical Australian,
00:29:44.81\00:29:46.48
who isn't British.
00:29:46.51\00:29:47.85
You know, there's a
website on the internet
00:29:47.88\00:29:49.75
that I actually have been
reading every now and then.
00:29:49.78\00:29:52.99
And it has different
pictures of soldiers,
00:29:53.02\00:29:57.03
and it tells you who
they were, what they were,
00:29:57.06\00:29:59.53
and what age they
were when they joined up,
00:29:59.56\00:30:01.30
where they joined
up, when they joined up,
00:30:01.33\00:30:03.50
how they got to wherever they
were in the First World War.
00:30:03.53\00:30:08.74
These ones actually are
all to do with Gallipoli
00:30:08.77\00:30:11.27
and it talks about
what battalion they were in,
00:30:11.31\00:30:16.44
what group they
were in a battalion
00:30:16.48\00:30:18.18
and whether
they've died at Gallipoli,
00:30:18.21\00:30:20.92
what date they died.
00:30:20.95\00:30:22.28
So many died on 25th of April,
00:30:22.32\00:30:24.29
I hadn't even
realized or they died of wounds
00:30:24.32\00:30:27.36
or they went on and
came home from the war.
00:30:27.39\00:30:30.39
And some of them
are from Britain,
00:30:30.43\00:30:33.80
and yet they were in Australia
00:30:33.83\00:30:35.26
and they joined up
as you were saying,
00:30:35.30\00:30:36.83
there's a number of those.
00:30:36.87\00:30:38.20
But, yeah, a lot of
them were from the city.
00:30:38.23\00:30:41.47
Exactly what you said, which is,
00:30:41.50\00:30:42.84
I found it quite interesting.
00:30:42.87\00:30:44.37
It was different
to what I'd expected.
00:30:44.41\00:30:46.11
It makes sense because
that's where Australians lived.
00:30:46.14\00:30:49.41
Many of them
couldn't ride a horse.
00:30:49.44\00:30:50.78
Many of them who
never fired a gun.
00:30:50.81\00:30:52.48
So the Anzac myth takes truths
00:30:52.51\00:30:57.59
from history.
00:30:57.62\00:31:00.99
I've never read an
element of the Anzac legend
00:31:01.02\00:31:03.39
that didn't have a
foundation in history,
00:31:03.43\00:31:06.26
but what national myths
and legends do is they edit.
00:31:06.29\00:31:10.93
It's not what's
in it that's false,
00:31:10.97\00:31:12.97
it's what's they've left
out that creates the falsehood.
00:31:13.00\00:31:17.21
And so what we've done is
edit down a version of Anzac
00:31:17.24\00:31:21.24
that represents
our ideals today.
00:31:21.28\00:31:26.58
For example, the Anzacs
actually fought to make sure
00:31:26.61\00:31:30.55
that Australia would
stay British and white.
00:31:30.59\00:31:33.96
And today, you watch
Anzac Day celebrations
00:31:33.99\00:31:36.69
and you see the school
bands marching down the streets
00:31:36.73\00:31:38.96
of Western Sydney.
00:31:38.99\00:31:41.03
And it's composed entirely
of non-white Australians,
00:31:41.06\00:31:44.97
who the Anzacs
fought to make sure
00:31:45.00\00:31:46.67
would never come to Australia.
00:31:46.70\00:31:48.34
Now that's interesting.
00:31:48.37\00:31:49.70
Very imperial.
00:31:49.74\00:31:51.07
So, you know, our
values have moved on.
00:31:51.11\00:31:54.08
And we edit the Anzac narratives
00:31:54.11\00:31:56.08
so that it reflects
our current set of values.
00:31:56.11\00:32:00.08
And my interest is,
00:32:00.12\00:32:01.72
okay, I can
understand a nation doing that,
00:32:01.75\00:32:04.19
a nation has to
have ideals to aim at,
00:32:04.22\00:32:08.59
but there's no reason to discard
00:32:08.62\00:32:12.03
or hide history in the process.
00:32:12.06\00:32:14.83
And some of the
truths we hide are the fact
00:32:14.86\00:32:16.80
that a good
number of Anzacs ran away
00:32:16.83\00:32:19.33
on the first day at Gallipoli.
00:32:19.37\00:32:21.50
Wouldn't you if someone
was shooting at you from bushes
00:32:21.54\00:32:23.91
where you couldn't see?
00:32:23.94\00:32:25.91
And you were only 17 years old.
00:32:25.94\00:32:27.44
Well, very few were 17.
00:32:27.48\00:32:28.88
That's another part of the myth.
00:32:28.91\00:32:30.58
Very few were under age.
00:32:30.61\00:32:33.18
But, you know,
00:32:33.21\00:32:36.79
one-fifth of the
Anzacs were Poms,
00:32:36.82\00:32:39.82
British, a fifth of
Anzacs were religious.
00:32:39.85\00:32:43.63
Most of the Anzacs
were from towns and cities.
00:32:43.66\00:32:46.33
I've got no problems
holding on to the ideal,
00:32:46.36\00:32:48.13
but let's not
forget the reality.
00:32:48.16\00:32:49.70
And one of the realities
I'm addressing is the degree
00:32:49.73\00:32:53.94
to which religion
mattered to Anzacs.
00:32:53.97\00:32:56.30
Now, some people try to make out
00:32:56.34\00:32:59.41
that the Anzacs
were God's warriors,
00:32:59.44\00:33:01.34
and that they are all
wonderfully spiritual men.
00:33:01.38\00:33:04.58
That too is a lie.
00:33:04.61\00:33:06.51
And the fact is
quarter to a fifth of them
00:33:06.55\00:33:09.98
were religious men,
00:33:10.02\00:33:11.95
and their story
deserves to be told
00:33:11.99\00:33:13.82
and their influence
deserves to be recognized.
00:33:13.86\00:33:17.73
It is equally wrong to pretend
00:33:17.76\00:33:19.19
they're all
Christians as to pretend that
00:33:19.23\00:33:21.66
none of them or
very few were religious.
00:33:21.70\00:33:24.77
So my second book,
00:33:24.80\00:33:26.13
which was always the
target of my research,
00:33:26.17\00:33:29.80
Anzac Spirituality.
00:33:29.84\00:33:32.67
Basically, I argued
the case from quotes
00:33:32.71\00:33:35.48
from their diaries and letters.
00:33:35.51\00:33:37.55
So you're not arguing with me
00:33:37.58\00:33:39.61
when I say the Anzacs
were interested in religion,
00:33:39.65\00:33:43.15
you're actually arguing
with their own statements
00:33:43.18\00:33:45.35
from their diaries and letters.
00:33:45.39\00:33:46.92
Yeah, from what they
had themselves written
00:33:46.96\00:33:49.62
and there's the book.
00:33:49.66\00:33:50.99
And it's quite a sizable book.
00:33:51.03\00:33:53.96
It's quite heavy.
00:33:54.00\00:33:56.10
It was a pleasure to write.
00:33:56.13\00:33:57.47
And, again I've tried
to be true to the evidence,
00:33:57.50\00:34:00.20
where soldiers
wrote against religion.
00:34:00.24\00:34:02.87
It's in the book.
00:34:02.90\00:34:04.67
And, you know, when
you write in a diary,
00:34:04.71\00:34:06.78
you're really writing
what's on your heart, isn't it?
00:34:06.81\00:34:08.74
Very much.
00:34:08.78\00:34:10.11
It's not as though
it's a letter to the public.
00:34:10.15\00:34:11.78
No.
00:34:11.81\00:34:13.15
It's either going to
someone you love or...
00:34:13.18\00:34:16.02
So you're revealing
really what's on your heart.
00:34:16.05\00:34:18.19
And when you're in
those circumstances...
00:34:18.22\00:34:19.89
I have not been to war.
00:34:19.92\00:34:21.26
I've done some training,
but I've never been to war,
00:34:21.29\00:34:23.76
but I can imagine
under those conditions
00:34:23.79\00:34:26.63
because it's not just one day,
00:34:26.66\00:34:28.73
it's a
continuation of daily life.
00:34:28.76\00:34:31.63
So your relationship in
what you feel is real to you
00:34:31.67\00:34:36.04
and I think that'll
be an interesting book.
00:34:36.07\00:34:38.87
Can I take you
through one chapter?
00:34:38.91\00:34:40.88
Yes.
00:34:40.91\00:34:42.24
There is one thing that soldiers
00:34:42.28\00:34:44.48
almost universally hated
00:34:44.51\00:34:46.78
and that was the
compulsory church services
00:34:46.82\00:34:48.72
on Sundays, right?
00:34:48.75\00:34:50.92
They had to go, the whole unit.
00:34:50.95\00:34:52.69
You could pick
00:34:52.72\00:34:54.09
if they were
chaplains available.
00:34:54.12\00:34:56.29
You could pick whether
you went to the Anglican,
00:34:56.32\00:34:58.19
the Roman Catholic,
00:34:58.23\00:34:59.56
or the other Protestant Service.
00:34:59.59\00:35:01.10
It's the same today.
00:35:01.13\00:35:02.46
Right.
00:35:02.50\00:35:04.83
My study of why they
hated those church services
00:35:04.87\00:35:08.54
was a revelation even to me.
00:35:08.57\00:35:10.31
Okay.
00:35:10.34\00:35:11.67
There were some who hated it
00:35:11.71\00:35:13.04
because they hated being
forced to go to a religion
00:35:13.07\00:35:15.18
they didn't believe in.
00:35:15.21\00:35:16.54
Okay.
00:35:16.58\00:35:18.31
But most of the comments saying
they didn't like the services
00:35:18.35\00:35:22.68
weren't religious reasons.
00:35:22.72\00:35:24.49
You found a quote, haven't you?
00:35:24.52\00:35:26.65
I did.
00:35:26.69\00:35:28.29
One said,
00:35:28.32\00:35:29.69
"Attended church
parade this morning,
00:35:29.72\00:35:31.86
usual old dreary ceremony."
00:35:31.89\00:35:34.63
Another man writes,
00:35:34.66\00:35:36.03
"This morning's
church parade was very fine,
00:35:36.06\00:35:38.93
the weather, warm and sparkling,
00:35:38.97\00:35:41.37
very little wind.
00:35:41.40\00:35:42.74
The men, very
happy and singing well
00:35:42.77\00:35:44.91
and the Padre had a
rattling good sermon for us."
00:35:44.94\00:35:49.08
That was just so beautiful.
00:35:49.11\00:35:51.15
That's what struck me so much.
00:35:51.18\00:35:53.21
The negative comments were,
"I couldn't hear the preacher.
00:35:53.25\00:35:57.45
It was too hot."
00:35:57.49\00:35:58.82
It's not the
religion they don't like,
00:36:02.02\00:36:04.03
or "The preacher wasn't
religious enough for me.
00:36:04.06\00:36:07.96
He was too wishy-washy."
00:36:08.00\00:36:09.90
And in fact, the
negative comments
00:36:09.93\00:36:11.63
were outweighed by
the positive comments 2:1.
00:36:11.67\00:36:16.91
So this whole idea
00:36:16.94\00:36:18.27
that soldiers
hated religion, no.
00:36:18.31\00:36:21.41
They hated spending three hours
00:36:21.44\00:36:23.21
making their
uniform spick and span,
00:36:23.24\00:36:26.82
standing in the sun for an hour
00:36:26.85\00:36:28.38
waiting for the general
to arrive to inspect them.
00:36:28.42\00:36:31.25
Listening to announcements
for another half an hour,
00:36:31.29\00:36:33.72
then standing
through a one hour service,
00:36:33.76\00:36:36.46
and then having
more announcer...
00:36:36.49\00:36:38.36
Then fanged.
00:36:38.39\00:36:39.73
You'd be sick of
it too, you know.
00:36:39.76\00:36:41.16
So it's not religion
that they didn't like,
00:36:41.20\00:36:43.77
it was the whole rigmarole.
00:36:43.80\00:36:46.70
One man here
says, "Church parades,
00:36:46.74\00:36:49.44
both Christmas day and Sunday
are fast on both occasions,
00:36:49.47\00:36:53.54
mere matters of form."
00:36:53.58\00:36:55.51
Another one mentions that,
"It was a one splendid sermon,
00:36:55.54\00:36:59.51
he says, but the wind
was so loud and strong
00:36:59.55\00:37:02.58
that it was hard for
most people to hear."
00:37:02.62\00:37:04.75
So then they're
having to stand out there
00:37:04.79\00:37:06.19
in this howling wind.
00:37:06.22\00:37:08.56
But then this other
one, "Church parade at 9:30,
00:37:08.59\00:37:11.59
dig and the other vows
compelled to attend Church
00:37:11.63\00:37:14.63
of England parade.
00:37:14.66\00:37:16.13
Didn't they kick?
00:37:16.16\00:37:17.60
The Padre hit the gamblers
very hard in his address
00:37:17.63\00:37:20.67
and with good results."
00:37:20.70\00:37:22.57
So there's negative
and there's positive.
00:37:22.60\00:37:25.64
You know, it's
quite amazing actually,
00:37:25.67\00:37:27.48
just to read those few.
00:37:27.51\00:37:28.88
It was a wonderful journey.
00:37:28.91\00:37:30.58
So I'll address, you
know, formal religion,
00:37:30.61\00:37:33.52
the informal,
volunteer church services
00:37:33.55\00:37:38.02
were better attended
than the compulsory ones.
00:37:38.05\00:37:40.46
Go figure.
00:37:40.49\00:37:42.22
Yeah.
00:37:42.26\00:37:43.63
Probably
four-fifths of Australians
00:37:43.66\00:37:46.43
voluntarily went to
evangelistic meetings.
00:37:46.46\00:37:49.26
Most of them came out unchanged.
00:37:49.30\00:37:51.23
But they chose to go
to a religious service.
00:37:51.27\00:37:54.10
I talked about
their relationship
00:37:54.14\00:37:55.47
with the chaplains,
00:37:55.50\00:37:56.84
which was
overwhelmingly positive.
00:37:56.87\00:37:58.21
There are some negatives.
00:37:58.24\00:38:00.68
I talk about their
ethics and morality.
00:38:00.71\00:38:03.65
Look at what they
thought about God and war,
00:38:03.68\00:38:06.61
particularly under
the stress of battle.
00:38:06.65\00:38:08.82
And it's their words.
00:38:08.85\00:38:10.19
It's them speaking to us today.
00:38:10.22\00:38:12.25
Did you find that
their faith in God
00:38:12.29\00:38:13.96
made them better soldiers to
do what they were called to do?
00:38:13.99\00:38:17.19
Some record that.
00:38:17.23\00:38:19.63
One man, for instance,
00:38:19.66\00:38:21.56
was hitting the
bull's eye all the time
00:38:21.60\00:38:23.26
in his target practice.
00:38:23.30\00:38:24.63
And he cried to the others that
00:38:24.67\00:38:26.00
it was because he didn't drink,
he had a much steadier hand.
00:38:26.03\00:38:29.37
But others do
document that their faith
00:38:29.40\00:38:32.21
was a steadying influence
under the stress of war.
00:38:32.24\00:38:35.71
Others, of course,
00:38:35.74\00:38:38.81
found that the
religion they've been given
00:38:38.85\00:38:44.32
didn't match their experience
00:38:44.35\00:38:46.19
and so they
tended to lose faith.
00:38:46.22\00:38:48.29
Probably, under
the stress of war,
00:38:48.32\00:38:52.89
if there was change...
00:38:52.93\00:38:54.26
And by the way,
war tended to confirm
00:38:54.30\00:38:55.86
whatever men believed
before the war, right?
00:38:55.90\00:38:58.17
So the religious
became more religious,
00:38:58.20\00:39:00.14
the atheists more atheists.
00:39:00.17\00:39:02.04
And those who may have
been classed as Christians,
00:39:02.07\00:39:05.17
but really didn't have
a personal relationship
00:39:05.21\00:39:08.81
with God, a real faith,
00:39:08.84\00:39:11.51
they could tend
to be pulled away?
00:39:11.55\00:39:13.35
Tend to be pulled away.
00:39:13.38\00:39:14.72
Actually, very
few men were atheist
00:39:14.75\00:39:17.29
because this is an era
00:39:17.32\00:39:18.65
where pretty well
everyone was raised
00:39:18.69\00:39:20.36
in a Christian ethos.
00:39:20.39\00:39:21.82
They might not have
known the doctrines.
00:39:21.86\00:39:23.26
They might not
have gone to church,
00:39:23.29\00:39:25.09
but they would
have been offended
00:39:25.13\00:39:27.40
if they were not
called Christian.
00:39:27.43\00:39:29.70
And they believed
in God and you know...
00:39:29.73\00:39:33.23
They just didn't know Him.
00:39:33.27\00:39:34.60
Yeah.
00:39:34.64\00:39:35.97
It's what one scholar
called a diffused spirituality.
00:39:36.00\00:39:39.91
They lived in a
Christian culture
00:39:39.94\00:39:41.98
and had Christian values,
00:39:42.01\00:39:43.45
but couldn't pin doctrines
down or any specific knowledge.
00:39:43.48\00:39:47.48
So you know, the majority of men
00:39:47.52\00:39:50.15
did believe in God,
00:39:50.19\00:39:51.52
did sort of think of
themselves as Christians,
00:39:51.55\00:39:53.46
but often badge
themselves as not religious.
00:39:53.49\00:39:57.16
One Australian
Light Horse officer
00:39:57.19\00:39:58.79
repeatedly called
himself not religious.
00:39:58.83\00:40:01.03
He went to church, he thanked
his mother for her prayers.
00:40:01.06\00:40:04.13
He was convinced that
God had saved him in battle.
00:40:04.17\00:40:06.74
He always spoke of
Jesus as our Lord and Savior,
00:40:06.77\00:40:10.74
not religious.
00:40:10.77\00:40:13.88
Is it just he didn't
realize or that he didn't...
00:40:13.91\00:40:16.34
It was just
more an outward form?
00:40:16.38\00:40:18.98
By the culture of the
day, he wasn't religious.
00:40:19.01\00:40:21.68
By the culture of
today, he was religious.
00:40:21.72\00:40:26.12
True.
00:40:26.15\00:40:27.49
Yeah, I remember...
00:40:27.52\00:40:28.86
I know that with
one of my dad's uncle's,
00:40:28.89\00:40:32.33
who was in the Light
Horse and it head down
00:40:32.36\00:40:35.76
that he was Baptist.
00:40:35.80\00:40:38.50
I don't know
00:40:38.53\00:40:40.84
what his
relationship with God was,
00:40:40.87\00:40:43.30
but I know that his mother
00:40:43.34\00:40:45.97
was what some people
might call religious.
00:40:46.01\00:40:48.38
But she was a
real God loving person
00:40:48.41\00:40:51.81
and her father had
raised her that way
00:40:51.85\00:40:54.05
because his diaries
are just full of God,
00:40:54.08\00:40:57.82
and praise to God
and rejoicing in God.
00:40:57.85\00:41:01.02
And when his
daughter gave her heart to God
00:41:01.06\00:41:03.16
and was going to be baptized,
00:41:03.19\00:41:04.53
he had it in his
diary in glowing reports.
00:41:04.56\00:41:07.73
So he had come from a home
00:41:07.76\00:41:09.60
that had that
sort of background,
00:41:09.63\00:41:12.90
but there was
not very much said...
00:41:12.93\00:41:14.97
No, he didn't say
very much about the war
00:41:15.00\00:41:16.54
when he came back.
00:41:16.57\00:41:17.91
Typical of most
soldiers, they didn't.
00:41:17.94\00:41:19.77
They found that
civilians weren't interested.
00:41:19.81\00:41:22.54
Yes.
00:41:22.58\00:41:23.91
Probably, the other
effective of war on their faith
00:41:23.95\00:41:27.58
was many men
came home to solution
00:41:27.62\00:41:31.62
by organized religion,
00:41:31.65\00:41:34.62
but with a deeper
connection to Christ.
00:41:34.66\00:41:37.33
And they found
organized religion
00:41:37.36\00:41:38.76
had let them down,
00:41:38.79\00:41:40.50
so they stopped
believing in the rituals
00:41:40.53\00:41:43.43
and the formality
and the denominations,
00:41:43.47\00:41:47.54
instead searching for
a personal connection.
00:41:47.57\00:41:52.31
I can understand
that they would do that.
00:41:52.34\00:41:55.84
Sometimes, we feel like
00:41:55.88\00:41:57.65
that we're being let
down by organized religion,
00:41:57.68\00:42:02.28
by churches and things
00:42:02.32\00:42:05.09
when we're going
through a tough time.
00:42:05.12\00:42:07.36
And it can make us feel, "Well,
they don't really want me.
00:42:07.39\00:42:10.83
I mean, I know God does,
but they don't really want me."
00:42:10.86\00:42:13.93
Yeah, people want to.
00:42:13.96\00:42:15.30
That's just because
people don't know how to react.
00:42:15.33\00:42:16.70
Sure.
00:42:16.73\00:42:18.07
People...
00:42:18.10\00:42:19.43
Even when someone's
died a lot of the time,
00:42:19.47\00:42:21.47
people in church
and out of church
00:42:21.50\00:42:23.37
don't really know how to react,
00:42:23.41\00:42:25.11
how to talk to
the person who is,
00:42:25.14\00:42:29.61
who has experienced the trauma
00:42:29.64\00:42:31.91
or the difficulty
that they're going through.
00:42:31.95\00:42:33.95
And so people keep silent
00:42:33.98\00:42:35.32
when we really need
to be there for them.
00:42:35.35\00:42:38.65
But our default mechanism
is, "Don't go near them.
00:42:38.69\00:42:44.49
You might offend them,
you might say something
00:42:44.53\00:42:46.56
that will hurt them
00:42:46.59\00:42:47.93
or they might
start to talk to me
00:42:47.96\00:42:50.73
about something I don't
want to talk about or whatever,"
00:42:50.77\00:42:52.97
and you keep away.
00:42:53.00\00:42:54.34
Yeah.
00:42:54.37\00:42:55.74
So continuing the story,
00:42:55.77\00:42:59.67
having written
Anzac Spirituality,
00:42:59.71\00:43:02.91
it was organized thematically,
00:43:02.94\00:43:05.38
but I felt
there was more to say.
00:43:05.41\00:43:09.58
And the more was,
00:43:09.62\00:43:12.02
what was the
experience of soldiers
00:43:12.05\00:43:14.09
going through the war?
00:43:14.12\00:43:16.52
As an individual,
00:43:16.56\00:43:17.89
what was their
spiritual journey?
00:43:17.93\00:43:20.56
And so, my latest book,
The Anzacs, Religion and God
00:43:20.60\00:43:24.33
is actually the
story of 27 soldiers...
00:43:24.37\00:43:29.40
26 soldiers and one nurse.
00:43:29.44\00:43:31.64
And it's largely taken
from their own writings,
00:43:31.67\00:43:34.91
tracing their
spiritual trajectory
00:43:34.94\00:43:36.91
through the war.
00:43:36.95\00:43:38.28
And again, I've tried to
get a representative spread.
00:43:38.31\00:43:43.18
Those who were
doubters or non-believers,
00:43:43.22\00:43:46.69
and what they had to
say about God and religion,
00:43:46.72\00:43:48.89
incredibly negative,
00:43:48.92\00:43:51.26
through to those who
were spiritually ambivalent,
00:43:51.29\00:43:54.96
through to those who were...
00:43:55.00\00:43:56.33
who had a very
deep and profound faith.
00:43:56.36\00:43:58.97
And we find all
sorts of things we,
00:43:59.00\00:44:01.20
you know, we find the doubters
have their doubts confirmed.
00:44:01.24\00:44:04.01
We find the ambivalent
00:44:04.04\00:44:06.24
struggling and
wrestling to understand God.
00:44:06.27\00:44:09.84
We find some believers
feeling their faith slip away,
00:44:09.88\00:44:13.72
but then they grab hold of it,
00:44:13.75\00:44:15.78
and it comes back
in a stronger form.
00:44:15.82\00:44:17.35
So that's more 27 stories
00:44:17.39\00:44:23.32
representing the range
of spiritual responses.
00:44:23.36\00:44:27.60
Yet there's
some different things
00:44:27.63\00:44:28.96
you've got here in the contents.
00:44:29.00\00:44:31.87
One man said,
"Christianity has not failed us,
00:44:31.90\00:44:34.94
we have failed Christianity."
00:44:34.97\00:44:36.47
That's an interesting concept.
00:44:36.50\00:44:37.94
Very interesting concept.
00:44:37.97\00:44:39.31
Now, he wasn't
the only one to say
00:44:39.34\00:44:40.68
so, to argue that the war
00:44:40.71\00:44:43.14
exposed the
failures of Christianity
00:44:43.18\00:44:48.15
to really
represent Christ aright.
00:44:48.18\00:44:51.52
Because another man says,
00:44:51.55\00:44:52.89
"I've lost a great
deal of faith in religion,
00:44:52.92\00:44:55.32
and the whole pile of religion."
00:44:55.36\00:44:57.09
So he's one who had been failed
in understanding Christianity.
00:44:57.13\00:45:02.20
Yes, he understood religion.
00:45:02.23\00:45:04.93
And most men who
lost faith knew religion,
00:45:04.97\00:45:08.37
but they didn't
necessarily know God.
00:45:08.40\00:45:11.67
There's another person who says,
00:45:11.71\00:45:14.04
"We will not achieve victory
00:45:14.08\00:45:16.38
until we as a nation
recognize God's Almighty hand."
00:45:16.41\00:45:20.98
So that is someone
who was seeing the God
00:45:21.02\00:45:23.99
in what was happening.
00:45:24.02\00:45:25.85
Yes, and many Christians did...
00:45:25.89\00:45:27.89
Many Christians
believe the war was sent by God
00:45:27.92\00:45:30.66
to pull us back
to righteousness.
00:45:30.69\00:45:33.19
Now, as it
happened to Australia,
00:45:33.23\00:45:35.13
you know and
Britain and the allies
00:45:35.16\00:45:37.20
won the war without
necessarily being more righteous
00:45:37.23\00:45:39.87
than they were before.
00:45:39.90\00:45:41.90
But it's a
particular view of God
00:45:41.94\00:45:43.41
that He deliberately sent stuff
along to knock us into shape.
00:45:43.44\00:45:47.81
I'm not sure
00:45:47.84\00:45:49.28
I take to that picture of God.
00:45:49.31\00:45:55.05
I was just going to
say there's one here that
00:45:55.08\00:46:00.12
"I do not want to go into battle
00:46:00.16\00:46:02.12
with the hatred burning up."
00:46:02.16\00:46:03.96
Oh, that is good.
00:46:03.99\00:46:05.33
That is such a statement.
00:46:05.36\00:46:06.93
Can I talk about him?
00:46:06.96\00:46:08.30
Yes.
00:46:08.33\00:46:09.66
That is Eric Harding Chinner.
00:46:09.70\00:46:13.70
He's a young man
from South Australia,
00:46:13.74\00:46:15.54
a Baptist, very devout
man, very gifted young man,
00:46:15.57\00:46:21.04
intellectually
gifted, a great sportsman
00:46:21.08\00:46:23.85
and a very
attractive personality.
00:46:23.88\00:46:26.28
People warm to him.
00:46:26.31\00:46:27.65
I didn't know you
had a photo of him here
00:46:27.68\00:46:30.12
of the person I read.
00:46:30.15\00:46:32.05
Yes, that was not intended.
00:46:32.09\00:46:34.86
And he stood out so
much that his officers
00:46:34.89\00:46:38.19
immediately selected
him for officer training,
00:46:38.23\00:46:41.20
and they kept him
back to train others.
00:46:41.23\00:46:43.06
That's how good he was.
00:46:43.10\00:46:45.73
So he wrote back to his family,
00:46:45.77\00:46:47.84
and that was one
of the things he said,
00:46:47.87\00:46:49.24
you know, "I don't
want to fight out of hatred.
00:46:49.27\00:46:53.41
I want to fight
for a positive reason."
00:46:53.44\00:46:55.31
He, actually heard a
chaplain preach a sermon
00:46:55.34\00:46:57.38
which said, "I
have come over here
00:46:57.41\00:47:00.28
to beat the offending
Adam out of the German."
00:47:00.32\00:47:05.05
That's an interesting thought.
00:47:05.09\00:47:06.42
It was a very
interesting concept,
00:47:06.45\00:47:07.79
and Chinner latched on to it.
00:47:07.82\00:47:09.92
He said, "That's
why I'm fighting.
00:47:09.96\00:47:11.99
I don't hate Germans.
00:47:12.03\00:47:13.36
I'm actually here to
help them become righteous."
00:47:13.40\00:47:18.93
Now, the striking thing
is in his very first battle,
00:47:18.97\00:47:21.70
the battle of
Fromelles in July 1916,
00:47:21.74\00:47:26.91
he was killed.
00:47:26.94\00:47:30.48
His body was only found a decade
00:47:30.51\00:47:32.75
or so ago when they
excavated those mass graves
00:47:32.78\00:47:36.05
and created the new cemetery
00:47:36.08\00:47:37.59
of Pheasant Wood
in New Fromelles.
00:47:37.62\00:47:42.02
One of the men he
was fighting against
00:47:42.06\00:47:44.03
that day on the other side
00:47:44.06\00:47:45.73
had one of the most dangerous
jobs on the battlefield.
00:47:45.76\00:47:48.00
He had to run
messages from headquarters
00:47:48.03\00:47:50.00
to the front line,
00:47:50.03\00:47:51.37
so he's constantly exposed.
00:47:51.40\00:47:52.77
He can't hide in a trench.
00:47:52.80\00:47:55.80
His name was Adolf Hitler.
00:47:55.84\00:47:57.57
And you see, First
World War didn't beat
00:48:00.68\00:48:02.61
the offending Adam out of Adolf,
00:48:02.64\00:48:04.95
it actually beat it into him.
00:48:04.98\00:48:08.38
And Hitler started an
even worse conflagration
00:48:08.42\00:48:11.49
because of his
experiences in World War I.
00:48:11.52\00:48:14.86
From that I kind of pick
up a few things, first of all,
00:48:14.89\00:48:18.09
I admire the nobility
of Chinner's character
00:48:18.13\00:48:20.86
that he sought to do good.
00:48:20.90\00:48:24.80
But I think war
is a fairly poor way
00:48:24.83\00:48:27.14
of bringing
people to righteousness.
00:48:27.17\00:48:29.20
War's okay for stopping evil,
00:48:29.24\00:48:32.47
but it's not good for
starting righteousness.
00:48:32.51\00:48:34.58
There's very
important Canadian philosopher,
00:48:34.61\00:48:36.71
who speaks about
the difference between
00:48:36.75\00:48:38.21
Christianity and
all other religions.
00:48:38.25\00:48:40.98
And he talks about scapegoating,
00:48:41.02\00:48:42.45
how we look for
someone to blame.
00:48:42.48\00:48:45.09
It's always someone else.
00:48:45.12\00:48:47.66
He said, "God is the
exception to that rule."
00:48:47.69\00:48:51.09
When we were to blame,
who took the punishment?
00:48:51.13\00:48:57.10
He took the blame on Himself
00:48:57.13\00:49:00.74
in order to free us
up to respond in love.
00:49:00.77\00:49:05.27
And, you know, one
of the things my dad did
00:49:05.31\00:49:07.14
in the Vietnam Civil War,
00:49:07.18\00:49:10.05
or the Guerrilla war,
00:49:10.08\00:49:12.68
he reading Gandhi and
said, "Gandhi is right.
00:49:12.71\00:49:15.32
People are shooting at
me because they are afraid."
00:49:15.35\00:49:17.45
What was my text
at the beginning?
00:49:17.49\00:49:20.16
They are afraid.
00:49:20.19\00:49:23.02
"And if I stop shooting at them,
00:49:23.06\00:49:24.49
they will no longer
have reason to be afraid.
00:49:24.53\00:49:26.23
Now, I might get
killed by the time
00:49:26.26\00:49:27.60
they realized that.
00:49:27.63\00:49:28.96
But at least, it's a
step in the right direction."
00:49:29.00\00:49:31.73
And as Christians,
00:49:31.77\00:49:33.90
we may at times need to
use force to stop an evil,
00:49:33.94\00:49:38.57
but we need to recognize
that once that's stopped,
00:49:38.61\00:49:41.14
we then need to
extend even more effort.
00:49:41.18\00:49:44.88
Taking the guilt and the
shame on us as Christ did
00:49:44.91\00:49:50.59
in order to release
those who are morally culpable
00:49:50.62\00:49:53.92
to receive grace,
00:49:53.96\00:49:55.69
God doesn't
scapegoat other people.
00:49:55.72\00:49:58.89
He scapegoats Himself,
00:49:58.93\00:50:01.20
so that they can receive
00:50:01.23\00:50:04.03
His perfect
righteousness in love.
00:50:04.07\00:50:06.43
And Chinner's story, for me,
just highlights those things.
00:50:06.47\00:50:09.94
That's beautiful.
00:50:09.97\00:50:11.71
There's a couple of others here
00:50:11.74\00:50:13.07
that I really
like, I must read them.
00:50:13.11\00:50:15.74
One says, "The
ordeal should also test
00:50:15.78\00:50:19.11
and bring my lack
of faith home to me."
00:50:19.15\00:50:23.02
Tom Richards, I'm
glad you mentioned him
00:50:23.05\00:50:24.72
because I happen
to have a photograph
00:50:24.75\00:50:26.09
of Tom Richards.
00:50:26.12\00:50:27.46
Oh, now you're kidding.
00:50:27.49\00:50:28.82
Tom Richards was
an absolute legend.
00:50:28.86\00:50:30.19
He was a wallaby,
00:50:30.23\00:50:31.56
won the gold
medal at the Olympics
00:50:31.59\00:50:33.13
with the wallaby team.
00:50:33.16\00:50:35.36
Also, he played
for the British Lions.
00:50:35.40\00:50:37.00
In fact, the contest
between the British Lions rugby
00:50:37.03\00:50:39.63
and the Australian Wallabies
is called Tom Richards cup.
00:50:39.67\00:50:43.44
Joined in First World War,
00:50:43.47\00:50:44.81
won the Military
Cross for bravery,
00:50:44.84\00:50:47.24
always
ambivalent about his faith.
00:50:47.28\00:50:49.94
His dad was a very
devout nonconformist,
00:50:49.98\00:50:53.18
and he could
never quite buy into it.
00:50:53.21\00:50:55.75
He hated nonconformist religion
00:50:55.78\00:50:59.22
because it wasn't
polished or intellectual.
00:50:59.25\00:51:01.19
For instance, he heard
sermons by William McKenzie.
00:51:01.22\00:51:03.46
He was in
William McKenzie's unit.
00:51:03.49\00:51:05.26
And while he admired McKenzie,
00:51:05.29\00:51:07.30
he found his
theology a bit thin.
00:51:07.33\00:51:09.93
So he wanted the depth
00:51:09.96\00:51:11.30
and the rigor of
Anglican theology,
00:51:11.33\00:51:13.50
but he hated the cold
formality of Anglican services.
00:51:13.54\00:51:17.84
So here he is going
through the whole war,
00:51:17.87\00:51:20.38
trying to figure out
how to marry the passion
00:51:20.41\00:51:26.25
and the personal
commitment of non-conformism
00:51:26.28\00:51:30.29
with the intellectual
rigor and artistic beauty
00:51:30.32\00:51:33.62
of Anglicanism.
00:51:33.66\00:51:35.06
He never found it,
but he was always seeking.
00:51:35.09\00:51:39.26
Yeah, that's beautiful.
00:51:39.29\00:51:41.60
You know, what he
wrote was really beautiful.
00:51:41.63\00:51:44.10
I'm just going to be...
00:51:44.13\00:51:46.23
I'm going to cut in
right now with the address roll
00:51:46.27\00:51:49.20
because there's a
couple others here
00:51:49.24\00:51:50.57
I want to comment on.
00:51:50.61\00:51:52.37
And I'm afraid
I'll run out of time
00:51:52.41\00:51:53.94
if I do the address roll now.
00:51:53.98\00:51:55.94
So I hope you've got
your pen and pencil ready,
00:51:55.98\00:51:59.38
so you can take
down the details.
00:51:59.41\00:52:01.05
So you can contact Professor
Daniel Reynaud yourself
00:52:01.08\00:52:04.75
if you want to find
out more information
00:52:04.79\00:52:06.32
or if you've got
comments about Anzacs
00:52:06.35\00:52:09.86
that are in your
family or once you've know
00:52:09.89\00:52:12.29
that will be a
blessing to help him in...
00:52:12.33\00:52:14.33
Especially, if you have
diaries or letters, please.
00:52:14.36\00:52:16.73
Yes.
00:52:16.77\00:52:18.33
And you can contact
him at this address.
00:52:18.37\00:52:21.60
Daniel Reynaud is
an Australian historian
00:52:26.88\00:52:29.61
whose work on
Australia World War 1
00:52:29.64\00:52:31.78
soldiers and religion
has challenged the myth
00:52:31.81\00:52:34.22
of the universal
secularity of the Anzacs.
00:52:34.25\00:52:37.85
He has authored
two books on the topic,
00:52:37.89\00:52:39.72
revealing that religion
00:52:39.75\00:52:41.09
was an important
factor in the lives
00:52:41.12\00:52:42.49
of a large minority of soldiers.
00:52:42.52\00:52:46.16
If you would like to contact him
00:52:46.19\00:52:47.53
concerning his
research into the Anzac Legend,
00:52:47.56\00:52:49.86
you may email him on
00:52:49.90\00:52:51.40
daniel.reynaud@avondale.edu.au
00:52:51.43\00:52:56.47
That's
daniel.reynaud@avondale.edu.au
00:52:56.50\00:53:04.48
You may also
visit his Facebook page,
00:53:07.88\00:53:10.22
point your web browser to
00:53:10.25\00:53:11.62
www.facebook.com/
DanielReynaudAuthor
00:53:11.65\00:53:16.83
Contact him today.
00:53:19.56\00:53:20.90
I hope you got those details
of Professor Daniel Reynaud.
00:53:23.60\00:53:26.70
I want you to take note
00:53:26.74\00:53:28.17
because his books
are really encouraging us
00:53:28.20\00:53:31.61
to realize that there
were soldiers out there,
00:53:31.64\00:53:34.28
who were actually
wanting to follow God.
00:53:34.31\00:53:36.88
And in their
lives during that time,
00:53:36.91\00:53:39.31
God played a role,
00:53:39.35\00:53:40.68
but there are others
who had the opposite effect.
00:53:40.72\00:53:42.55
You know, Rosemary, you got
a couple of more passages...
00:53:42.58\00:53:45.39
I just saw these little snippets
00:53:45.42\00:53:48.16
of their stories.
00:53:48.19\00:53:50.16
One of them,
00:53:50.19\00:53:51.59
which you said is a
very important person,
00:53:51.63\00:53:53.73
I mean, and the other two.
00:53:53.76\00:53:55.10
I just want to
say, I mentioned them,
00:53:55.13\00:53:56.46
but I had no idea that
you had photos of them,
00:53:56.50\00:53:58.57
so I thought that
was quite amazing.
00:53:58.60\00:54:01.84
I felt impressed
that I must have done
00:54:01.87\00:54:04.77
that through the Holy Spirit.
00:54:04.81\00:54:06.27
But there's one here,
it says, "Trust God voice,"
00:54:06.31\00:54:09.81
and that's by John Gotch Ridley,
00:54:09.84\00:54:12.28
I know you have the story.
00:54:12.31\00:54:13.65
I do and the photo.
00:54:13.68\00:54:15.02
Oh, another photo.
00:54:15.05\00:54:16.38
There he is with
his wife after the war.
00:54:16.42\00:54:17.75
You can see him
wearing the Military Cross
00:54:17.79\00:54:19.15
which is the
first of his medals.
00:54:19.19\00:54:22.22
He became a
Christian in his teens.
00:54:22.26\00:54:24.49
And he's one of the few,
00:54:24.53\00:54:27.43
who had the presence
of mind to think of God
00:54:27.46\00:54:31.77
in actual combat.
00:54:31.80\00:54:33.13
Now, most soldiers
wrote about religion
00:54:33.17\00:54:35.00
when they're behind the lines.
00:54:35.04\00:54:36.50
In combat, they're
overtaken by sheer survival.
00:54:36.54\00:54:39.57
That's right.
00:54:39.61\00:54:40.94
For sure.
00:54:40.98\00:54:42.31
This man in the middle
of a battle is praying.
00:54:42.34\00:54:43.68
He's telling
soldiers, "Trust God."
00:54:43.71\00:54:46.31
He's telling wounded men,
00:54:46.35\00:54:48.22
you know, "Try and
put your faith in God."
00:54:48.25\00:54:50.92
He's leading an attack
00:54:50.95\00:54:52.29
and a bullet goes
through his throat
00:54:52.32\00:54:54.09
and he nearly dies from
drowning in his own blood.
00:54:54.12\00:54:56.66
You know, it's welling
out and he can't breathe.
00:54:56.69\00:54:59.19
And he wonders what
heaven will be like,
00:54:59.23\00:55:01.13
you know, and he
wonders what his mum will think
00:55:01.16\00:55:02.83
when she gets the telegram.
00:55:02.86\00:55:04.87
He survives the war
00:55:04.90\00:55:06.90
and he becomes a
really important evangelist
00:55:06.94\00:55:09.10
after the war.
00:55:09.14\00:55:10.57
And his experiences were sharp
00:55:10.61\00:55:12.34
because he was
preaching one day saying,
00:55:12.37\00:55:16.11
"Eternity, eternity, eternity.
00:55:16.14\00:55:18.51
I wish I could
emblazon it across this city."
00:55:18.55\00:55:21.68
Well, one of the men
in that sermon listening
00:55:21.72\00:55:23.72
to that sermon was Arthur Stace.
00:55:23.75\00:55:26.76
And Arthur Stace is the
famous mystery eternity,
00:55:26.79\00:55:29.59
a reformed alcoholic,
00:55:29.62\00:55:31.43
who walked out of
that meeting inspired.
00:55:31.46\00:55:33.76
Now, he was
illiterate, couldn't write.
00:55:33.80\00:55:36.67
But he wrote the word eternity
on the footpaths of Sydney
00:55:36.70\00:55:40.74
for the rest of his life
00:55:40.77\00:55:42.10
in beautiful
copperplate handwriting
00:55:42.14\00:55:44.44
and created the
legend of mystery eternity.
00:55:44.47\00:55:46.51
He was inspired by John Ridley.
00:55:46.54\00:55:48.91
You know, there's a
sign on the side of the road,
00:55:48.94\00:55:51.28
not far from here,
00:55:51.31\00:55:52.88
which is Arthur
Stace's eternity.
00:55:52.91\00:55:56.28
That's amazing.
00:55:56.32\00:55:57.65
That was one of
the lasting images
00:55:57.69\00:55:59.32
of the 2000
Olympic Games in Sydney.
00:55:59.35\00:56:01.52
That's right.
00:56:01.56\00:56:02.89
I just want to
mention this one here
00:56:02.92\00:56:04.73
because you said this
man was, did something.
00:56:04.76\00:56:07.46
"We haven't got much time,
00:56:07.50\00:56:08.83
but there in the
shelter of the cliffs,
00:56:08.86\00:56:11.10
we worshiped our God."
00:56:11.13\00:56:12.60
Now, who wrote that?
00:56:12.63\00:56:14.60
That's Tralore.
00:56:14.64\00:56:15.97
That's right.
00:56:16.00\00:56:17.34
He knows his men.
00:56:17.37\00:56:18.71
Now, he was an
administrator during the war.
00:56:18.74\00:56:21.91
So he didn't see a
lot of frontline combat,
00:56:21.94\00:56:23.98
obviously at Gallipoli,
everybody was at risk.
00:56:24.01\00:56:28.15
But he was in the
war records section
00:56:28.18\00:56:30.25
and after the war,
00:56:30.29\00:56:31.62
he was asked to found
the Australian War Memorial.
00:56:31.65\00:56:34.26
So the War
Memorial is his vision,
00:56:34.29\00:56:36.32
his passion, the design,
the way it's been set out,
00:56:36.36\00:56:40.80
the legacy of the war memorial.
00:56:40.83\00:56:42.53
Our most
significant national memorial
00:56:42.56\00:56:46.07
is the work of a Christian man.
00:56:46.10\00:56:48.50
These books and, you know, just
even looking at those things,
00:56:48.54\00:56:51.24
this book looks
really interesting.
00:56:51.27\00:56:53.94
You've got some
incredible people
00:56:53.98\00:56:56.51
that you've put into this book.
00:56:56.54\00:56:58.45
I think I'll just
have to read these books
00:56:58.48\00:57:01.22
because I love the Anzacs,
00:57:01.25\00:57:02.98
I love history and
this is just really good.
00:57:03.02\00:57:07.06
I just want to
mention before we go
00:57:07.09\00:57:09.26
that Professor
Reynaud also sings folk music
00:57:09.29\00:57:14.36
and you've got a couple of CDs.
00:57:14.40\00:57:16.26
If anybody is a
folk music addict,
00:57:16.30\00:57:20.37
you may very much
like to get these.
00:57:20.40\00:57:23.67
So you can contact
him for those as well,
00:57:23.71\00:57:25.84
Humble Pie and
Nothing is Wasted.
00:57:25.87\00:57:30.91
It's very hard to read that.
00:57:30.95\00:57:32.81
But we thank you
for joining us today.
00:57:32.85\00:57:35.75
We hope that you
have really enjoyed
00:57:35.78\00:57:38.05
what we have talked about.
00:57:38.09\00:57:40.32
And in the meantime,
before we see you again,
00:57:40.36\00:57:43.06
may God richly
bless you and keep you.
00:57:43.09\00:57:45.56