[triumphant intro music]
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[Narrator]: This is 3ABN
Now with John and Rosemary
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Malkiewycz.
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[Rosemary]: Welcome
to our program. This is a
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really important
topic we're going to discuss
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today. We will have
our Bibles, and I want you
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to get your Bibles.
If you've got one handy,
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go and get it, because
we're going to be discussing
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a really important, if
not the most important, topic
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that the Bible brings
to us. It's the atonement
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and judgment. We have
someone to lead us through
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today as we look at
our Bibles on this topic,
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and that's Dr. Sven 
string. Welcome, Sven.
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[Dr.  string]: It's
really good to be with you
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today. [Rosemary]:
It's good to have you here,
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because this is such
an important thing to get
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right! [Dr.  string]:
Yes, absolutely! Because it
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takes us back to kind
of this central event in
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salvation history,
which is the death of Jesus on
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the cross. I mean, I
don't know about you,
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but if I reflect on the
death of Jesus, my heart
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is just melted at God's
love and His willingness
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to come and die for
us. It's incredible.
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[John]: It's central,
the plan of salvation,
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and it's in the
Bible right at the center-
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but there's more to it
than just that. We're gonna
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be looking at that, also.
[Dr.  string]: You're absolutely
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right, John, 'cause the
fact is this, is that atonement,
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as you mentioned, Rosemary,
is where God wants us to
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be. We'll talk about
that in a little while,
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as well, but
there's still a process that
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needs to be done even
right now. We're not there
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yet, as the saying goes.
[Rosemary]: And this topic
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is very misunderstood
by a number of people, and
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different people have
come up with their theories.
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So today, we're
wanting to help you understand
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what the Bible really
does say so that if you
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hear any of these
other theories, you can say,
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"...No." Isaiah
8:20, "For the law and the
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testimony, if it is
not according to this word,
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it is because there is no
light in them." So we have
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to know what the truth
is so that when we hear
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error, we can say, "No. I'm not
going to accept that, because
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that is not the truth."
But we have to know the truth.
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[John]: The best place
is to go to the Word of
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God, and we're gonna
start off with a text from
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the Bible. But before I
read it, it's very important
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that we ask for the
leading of the Holy Spirit. So,
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I'd ask you to join me
as I pray. Father in heaven,
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it is a joy and a
privilege to come before You and
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ask for Your Holy Spirit
to direct us through Your
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Word. It's Your Word,
Lord, it's a wonderful
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book. It reveals
to mankind the origin,
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where we're going, what
happens, how can we spend
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eternity with You, and
that is through what we're
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talking today is
through Jesus and His atonement
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for our sins. I thank
You, Father, that it is
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real. It is visible to
all; it's in black and white.
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So I pray now,
Father, that Your Holy Spirit
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will give us
direction, give us counsel, and
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guidance, through
this important subject we
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are talking today. And I
ask it in Jesus' name, amen.
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The text that I want
to start with is found in
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Romans chapter 5 and
verse 8. It's very clear,
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"But God commended
His love toward us in that
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while we were yet sinners,
Christ died for us." It's
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pretty plain. That's
really the wonderful plan of
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salvation and how
it's to take place!
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[Dr.  string]: Absolutely.
(x2) And the amazing thing is
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this, is that a
child can understand that.
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A child can simply read
the gospels, listen to a
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bedtime Bible story,
and actually know that Jesus
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died for my sins. [Rosemary]:
And that God loves us.
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[Dr.  string]: That He
loves us, yes, and that
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we can have eternal
life. You know, if you come
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with me to 1 Corinthians
15:3, we see this clearly
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stated in the scriptures.
1 Corinthians chapter 15
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and verse 3. And if
one of you would be able to
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read that for us.
[John]: 1 Corinthians 15:3,
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"For I delivered unto
you first of all that which I
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also received, how that
Christ died for our sins
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according to the scriptures."
[Rosemary]: Well, the
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scriptures, of course,
being the Old Testament,
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which foresaw and
prophesied of Jesus doing it.
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[Dr.  string]: Yes,
and we'll come back to a
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very famous
prophecy in the Old Testament
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on that regard. Not only
did Jesus die for our sins,
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but He died to give us
eternal life. And if we
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go to John 3:16, we
should be able to memorize
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this. [John]: Oh, I
think we know that. [laughter]
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[Rosemary and Dr.  string]:
"For God so loved the world
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that He gave His only begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth
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in Him should not
perish, but have eternal life."
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[Dr.  string]: You know,
and a child can understand this.
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[Rosemary]: And Cole
can learn that first.
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[Dr.  string]:
Exactly. We can, too.
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[John]: You know,
there are two verses before
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that, Sven, that
really help us to clearly see
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and understand. It
says in verse 14, it says,
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"And as Moses lifted up the
serpent into the wilderness,
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even so must the Son
of Man be lifted up, that
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whosoever believeth in Him
should not perish, but have
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eternal life." So,
you know, it's clear; it's
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an action on our part
that we need to do something.
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[Dr.  string]: Yes.
Yeah. So, it's amazing-it's
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something which a
child can understand, but it
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goes deeper, and
this is where you want to
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dive in today. What
did Jesus actually do for
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us on the cross? What did
He do for us on the cross?
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And the interesting
thing is this, is that what we
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find Jesus doing is
that He was reconciling us to
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Himself. He was reconciling
us to God. And the Bible is
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very, very clear about
this, as well. Come over with me
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to 2 Corinthians
chapter 5 and verses 18 and 19.
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Very powerful verses right
here. [Rosemary]: Okay, I'll
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read this one. "And
all things are of God
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who hath reconciled us
to Himself by Christ Jesus,"
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or Jesus Christ, "and
hath given to us the ministry
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of reconciliation. To
wit, that God was in Christ,
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reconciling the world
unto Himself, not imputing
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their trespasses unto
them and hath committed unto
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us the word of reconciliation."
[Dr.  string]: That concept
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of reconciliation, to
reconcile, is very, very
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important. And it's also
very interesting to identify
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when this occurred, or
what was the relationship?
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And we find that in
Romans chapter 5 and verse 10...
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Really, it's a Bible study today
isn't it? [verbal agreement]
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[John]: But you have to
do that to give clarity.
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[Dr.  string]: Yes! It is
a Bible study that we want
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to dive into, and so
that's why Rosemary invited our
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viewers who've joined
us to grab their Bibles
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to join with us in our
Bible study. So, Romans
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chapter 5, and we're
looking at verse 10 here...
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[Rosemary]: And I just
want to make a comment,
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too, to our viewers that
if you are having trouble
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getting to these
verses on time, have a piece
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of paper and a pen and
write them down, and look
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at them later.
That always helps.
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[Dr.  string]: So Romans
chapter 5 and verse 10...
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[John]: And the Bible says,
"For if when we were enemies,
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we were reconciled to
God by the death of His
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Son, much more being
reconciled we shall be
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saved by His life. [Dr. 
string]: Incredible. (x2)
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So, the reconciliation occurred
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when we were enemies
of God. Enemies of God.
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[Rosemary]: But
see, we reconciled by His
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death, and we're
saved by His life. They work
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together. His life
and His death are all part
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of a package. So is His
resurrection - I'm gonna
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throw that in. [laughs]
[Dr.  string]: Yes! And it's a
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process, as you were
saying, John, before.
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It's Jesus' ministry for
us. So, the cross is very
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central. And Paul said,
he told the Corinthians,
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"My message, I'm
gonna focus on the cross!"
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But 'the cross' was kind
of like a code word; it's
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kind of like a summary
of everything that Jesus
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did for us. Now, I want
to dive into this concept
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of reconciliation.
I don't know if you've
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ever had somebody that
you had a falling out with
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I'm sure you good people
maybe never had! [laughter]
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But, you know, the
feeling of being reconciled is a
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beautiful feeling.
It really is incredible.
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This is what Jesus
is doing for us. Now, in
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the Old English, the
word which we're talking
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about here is 'atonement'.
That's the topic, as you
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were saying, Rosemary,
before. 'Atonement' is not found
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in the Hebrew, it's
not found, necessarily in
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the Greek, as well;
it's an English word. It's
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an English word, which is
made up- it's, at, one, ment.
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At-one-ment. We're
one, once again, with God,
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which is something we
all really long to be. It's
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really what we long
to be. And what we find,
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if you go back in
the Old Testament to the
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Old Testament service
in the tabernacle, you
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find 'atonement' is actually
a huge concept. Come with
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me to Exodus
chapter 32 and verse 30. So,
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Exodus 32:30. And
what we find here is that
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it's the time when the
Israelites had got a bit
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impatient. Their
pastor had gone up for this
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spiritual retreat
and stayed up there for
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40 days. They were wondering,
"What on earth is he doing?"
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[John]: It's too long.
[Dr.  string]: Too long!
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[Rosemary]: They didn't
know if he was still alive.
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[Dr.  string]: Didn't
know if he was still alive.
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So, 40 days, what
they decided to do is they
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decided to go back to
the traditions that they
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knew. That's
exactly what happened! Until
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they built this golden
calf. [Rosemary]: Well, you
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gotta remember, too,
they did have a mixed
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multitude there egging
them into the wrong things.
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[Dr.  string]: That's
right, as well. So, there was
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people kind of pushing
them. So, this golden calf
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when they're worshiping
the calf, and Moses comes
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down, incredibly incensed,
incredibly shocked. But this
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is what he says to the
Israelites: Exodus 32:30,
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if one of you are
able to read that.
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[John]: The Bible
says, "And it came to pass
00:11:08.53\00:11:10.10
on the morrow that
Moses said unto the people,
00:11:10.20\00:11:12.73
'Ye have sinned a
great sin, and now I will go
00:11:12.83\00:11:16.14
up unto the Lord,
peradventure I shall
00:11:16.20\00:11:18.31
make atonement for your sin."
[Dr.  string]: Yes. There's
00:11:18.37\00:11:20.94
the word. [John]: That's
the word, the 'atonement'.
00:11:21.04\00:11:22.74
[Dr.  string]: Atonement,
yes. Becoming one again
00:11:22.84\00:11:26.95
with God. And it's
so important! You know,
00:11:27.02\00:11:29.28
the reality is this,
is if we don't have the
00:11:29.38\00:11:31.62
atonement, we are lost
forever. [Rosemary]: I just
00:11:31.75\00:11:35.22
want to make a
comment on this, that we're
00:11:35.32\00:11:37.23
possibly getting to a
bit later. But he said,
00:11:37.33\00:11:40.90
"Peradventure," or,
in case, "Maybe I am able
00:11:41.03\00:11:44.63
to make an atonement
for your sin." Now, that
00:11:44.73\00:11:50.04
sin is singular. Okay?
That sin was a specific
00:11:50.14\00:11:56.21
sin that they had committed.
Yes, they had built an
00:11:56.31\00:12:01.98
idol and worshiped it
when God had told them
00:12:02.12\00:12:05.19
that we're not to
build idols, that we're not
00:12:05.29\00:12:07.42
to build any molten
images, that we're not to bow
00:12:07.52\00:12:11.43
down before them and
worship them; they were
00:12:11.53\00:12:14.16
to worship only Him
as God. They had broken
00:12:14.26\00:12:16.36
God's law, and so he
was going to see if he
00:12:16.46\00:12:21.54
could make atonement
for that sin. It was a
00:12:21.67\00:12:23.97
specific sin; it wasn't
just because they were sinners.
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[John]: And it's important
to know it's between the
00:12:27.44\00:12:29.38
people and God. It
wasn't between Moses and
00:12:29.48\00:12:32.48
the people; it was
between the people and God.
00:12:32.61\00:12:35.35
[Dr.  string]: Yes.
And that's why John Wesley
00:12:35.45\00:12:37.65
made the comment that
nothing in the whole system
00:12:37.75\00:12:40.92
of Christian theology
is of greater consequence
00:12:41.02\00:12:46.29
than the understanding
of atonement. That's what
00:12:46.90\00:12:49.73
he said. This is the
central thing: How can
00:12:49.86\00:12:52.40
I be reconciled to
God? (x2) It's so deep that
00:12:52.50\00:12:58.37
people have been
drilling down into this well,
00:12:58.47\00:13:02.51
this reservoir of
theology and understanding for
00:13:02.64\00:13:04.85
centuries. And what
we want to do today is we
00:13:04.95\00:13:09.12
want to start going
into the explanation. They're
00:13:09.22\00:13:11.85
called models,
explanations for what Jesus did
00:13:11.95\00:13:15.16
for us on the cross,
and His work afterwards,
00:13:15.26\00:13:18.56
as well. The first
model that we could look at
00:13:18.66\00:13:22.53
is called the ransom
model. Ransom model. Come over
00:13:22.63\00:13:26.80
with me to Mark 10:45.
Mark chapter 10. So this
00:13:26.90\00:13:33.98
is Jesus speaking. Mark
10:45. And maybe Rosemary,
00:13:34.04\00:13:39.31
if you were able to
read that for us today.
00:13:39.41\00:13:45.02
[Rosemary]: Okay. Chapter
10 verse 45 of Mark, "For
00:13:45.12\00:13:49.42
even the Son of Man came
not to be ministered unto,"
00:13:49.56\00:13:53.23
and this is Christ
speaking, "but to minister and
00:13:53.33\00:13:56.50
to give His life a ransom for
many." [Dr.  string]: A ransom
00:13:56.60\00:13:59.73
for many. Yes. So, this
comes from the, kind of,
00:13:59.83\00:14:02.60
medieval... Well, of
course, Jesus was even
00:14:02.70\00:14:04.44
talking about that
beforehand. But to paint you a
00:14:04.57\00:14:07.98
picture, this was kind
of like from the medieval
00:14:08.08\00:14:10.65
feudal-kind of
system where I would come
00:14:10.75\00:14:14.28
and raid your
village and take captive some
00:14:14.38\00:14:18.49
of your kids, for
example. [Rosemary]: Use them
00:14:18.62\00:14:22.29
as slaves. [Dr.  string]:
Yes, use them as slaves. And
00:14:22.39\00:14:24.76
if you wanted the slaves,
your kids, or whoever back,
00:14:24.86\00:14:29.26
then you would have to
come and give me a ransom-
00:14:29.40\00:14:32.53
pay the ransom to
buy me back. And this is
00:14:32.63\00:14:35.90
one of the earliest
models for the atonement. You
00:14:36.00\00:14:40.14
could dig into this
a lot, as well, but we
00:14:40.24\00:14:42.24
want to continue on.
[Rosemary]: So, you're
00:14:42.34\00:14:43.88
saying that in the medieval
times, they really understood
00:14:43.98\00:14:46.25
that idea, because
it fitted with the times
00:14:46.35\00:14:50.02
they lived in and
the worldview - the way
00:14:50.15\00:14:54.46
they thought, their
opinions, and everything - they
00:14:54.56\00:14:59.39
could see that in the Bible.
[Dr.  string]: That's right.
00:14:59.49\00:15:02.93
And tribal societies
even today can really
00:15:03.03\00:15:05.63
understand this kind
of concept of a ransom.
00:15:05.73\00:15:09.10
[Rosemary]: It's their
culture in all those things that
00:15:09.24\00:15:10.57
affect the different models.
[Dr.  string]: Yes! Definitely.
00:15:10.61\00:15:13.98
Definitely. [Rosemary]:
Preconceived ideas and all.
00:15:14.08\00:15:15.91
[Dr.  string]: That's
right. That's definitely
00:15:15.98\00:15:17.31
right. But there were
people who thought, maybe,
00:15:17.35\00:15:20.85
there's something
else- another kind of angle
00:15:20.92\00:15:22.88
that they could look
at atonement. And so, we
00:15:22.98\00:15:25.75
come to the moral influence
theory. A priest by the
00:15:25.85\00:15:31.39
name of Peter
Abelard saw this concept, or
00:15:31.49\00:15:36.10
came across this
concept, and the verse which he
00:15:36.20\00:15:40.10
liked to base it on
is found in Romans 5:8,
00:15:40.20\00:15:44.74
if you have that for us.
[John]: Yeah, and I read it
00:15:44.84\00:15:46.54
earlier on, but I'm gonna
read it again, because it's
00:15:46.61\00:15:48.74
a very important verse.
It says, "But God commended
00:15:48.84\00:15:51.18
toward us in that
while we were yet sinners,
00:15:51.31\00:15:54.95
Christ died for us."
It's a wonderful thing
00:15:55.05\00:15:59.15
to understand. [Dr.
 string]: It is. (x2)
00:15:59.25\00:16:01.09
Now, I want to just
share with you, what does the
00:16:01.16\00:16:03.19
moral influence theory
mean? What it is is that
00:16:03.29\00:16:06.86
God in His great
love for us stepped into
00:16:06.96\00:16:10.83
our world in the
person of Jesus. And because
00:16:10.93\00:16:13.64
of this incredible demonstration
of divine love, we are
00:16:13.74\00:16:18.07
moved to confess our
sins and to start moving
00:16:18.17\00:16:24.58
back towards God.
Now, one of the things you
00:16:24.68\00:16:26.92
need to notice with
the moral influence theory
00:16:27.02\00:16:29.28
is that the reconciliation
all needs to be done
00:16:29.38\00:16:34.92
on our part. So, for
moral influence theory,
00:16:35.02\00:16:38.79
for God, there's nothing
to be reconciled. There's
00:16:38.93\00:16:42.00
no issue with God,
shall I say. It's all that we
00:16:42.13\00:16:45.67
need to be brought
back to God. We need to see
00:16:45.77\00:16:49.20
the love and need to
be transformed by it.
00:16:49.30\00:16:52.27
So, that's the moral
influence theory. Now,
00:16:52.37\00:16:54.94
there's another one,
as well. There's quite a
00:16:55.04\00:16:56.91
few of these, and it's
good to dive into it, is
00:16:57.01\00:16:59.25
Christ the victor.
Christ as victor, and that's
00:16:59.38\00:17:03.82
found in Colossians
2:15. Rosemary, if you have
00:17:03.95\00:17:11.43
that there for us.
[Rosemary]: I have. It
00:17:11.53\00:17:14.56
says... It's Colossians
2:15, "And having spoiled
00:17:14.66\00:17:18.87
principalities and
powers, he made a show of them
00:17:18.97\00:17:22.60
openly, triumphing over
them in it." [Dr.  string]: Yes.
00:17:22.70\00:17:27.38
So, what we have here...
[Rosemary]: He's the victor.
00:17:27.48\00:17:29.48
[Dr.  string]: He's
the victor! He conquers the
00:17:29.61\00:17:33.31
evil powers through the
cross. He won the victory
00:17:33.45\00:17:37.25
at the cross. That's an
incredible thing, as well,
00:17:37.39\00:17:41.06
to understand that we
are in this life, we're
00:17:41.19\00:17:45.89
going through the journey,
but we're on the winning
00:17:45.99\00:17:48.46
side already. It's
been done. The victory has
00:17:48.56\00:17:51.47
been won. Amazing.
So that was a number of
00:17:51.57\00:17:54.64
the different
models, but then we come to
00:17:54.74\00:17:56.50
the great
Reformation of which we stand on
00:17:56.60\00:17:59.44
the shoulders of.
What we find there is that
00:17:59.51\00:18:03.91
the reformers moved
this concept of what we call
00:18:04.05\00:18:08.48
penal substitution. And
for that, I want to bring
00:18:08.58\00:18:11.55
you over to Isaiah,
that beautiful prophecy that
00:18:11.65\00:18:16.49
we were talking about
earlier at the beginning.
00:18:16.59\00:18:19.06
One of the
prophecies in the Old Testament,
00:18:19.13\00:18:20.86
Isaiah 53:4-6.
[John]: The Bible's very
00:18:20.96\00:18:30.24
clear here. It says,
"Surely he hath borne
00:18:30.34\00:18:33.38
our griefs, and
carried our sorrows: yet we
00:18:33.48\00:18:36.44
did esteem him stricken,
smitten of God, and afflicted.
00:18:36.54\00:18:40.78
But he was wounded
for our transgressions, he
00:18:40.92\00:18:44.05
was bruised for our
iniquities: the chastisement
00:18:44.15\00:18:47.59
of our peace was upon
him; and with his stripes
00:18:47.69\00:18:50.36
we are healed. All
we like sheep have gone
00:18:50.49\00:18:54.83
astray; we have
turned every one to his own
00:18:54.90\00:18:57.90
way; and the Lord hath
laid on him the iniquity
00:18:58.00\00:19:01.70
of us all." [Dr. 
string]: Mmm. Mm. The
00:19:01.80\00:19:04.51
picture is this: Jesus
took our sins upon Himself.
00:19:04.64\00:19:10.31
God laid our sins
upon Him that the penalty,
00:19:10.41\00:19:18.32
the chastisement
that we deserved, He took,
00:19:18.42\00:19:22.86
and we could be
freed, we could be healed,
00:19:22.96\00:19:27.10
because of that.
[Rosemary]: This is a
00:19:27.20\00:19:29.96
bit like reconciliation,
too. [Dr.  string]: It is, yes.
00:19:30.07\00:19:33.07
Definitely. And so
what you find here is this
00:19:33.20\00:19:36.71
very, very powerful
concept, and it goes back to the
00:19:36.81\00:19:40.81
Old Testament system,
the system in the tabernacle
00:19:40.91\00:19:44.55
where a sacrifice
was needed. We find this
00:19:44.65\00:19:50.85
at the very start of
Leviticus, that book with
00:19:50.95\00:19:54.69
all of the laws and regulations.
[Rosemary]: Sacrifices.
00:19:54.79\00:19:59.49
[Dr.  string]: Sacrifices,
yes. Leviticus 1:1-4.
00:19:59.59\00:20:05.83
We actually see this
word, 'atonement', being
00:20:05.93\00:20:08.94
used here, as well. It's
really amazing. So, Leviticus
00:20:09.04\00:20:12.47
chapter 1 verses 1-4.
[Rosemary]: Okay, I'll
00:20:13.41\00:20:17.35
read that. "And the Lord
called unto Moses and spake
00:20:17.45\00:20:20.25
unto him out of
the tabernacle of the
00:20:20.35\00:20:22.25
congregation, saying,
'Speak unto the children
00:20:22.38\00:20:25.15
of Israel and say unto
them, "If any man of you
00:20:25.25\00:20:28.09
bring an offering unto
the Lord, you shall bring
00:20:28.22\00:20:30.23
your offering of the
cattle, even of the herd
00:20:30.33\00:20:32.93
and out of the flock.
If his offering be a burnt
00:20:33.03\00:20:37.47
sacrifice of the herd,
let him offer a male without
00:20:37.53\00:20:40.97
blemish, and he shall offer
it of his own voluntary will
00:20:41.00\00:20:44.41
at the door of the
tabernacle of the congregation
00:20:44.47\00:20:47.31
before the Lord." So, at the
sanctuary. "And he shall put his
00:20:47.41\00:20:51.41
hand upon the head of
the burnt offering; and
00:20:51.51\00:20:54.15
it shall be accepted for
him to make atonement for him."
00:20:54.25\00:20:58.12
[Dr.  string]: Yes. So
you can see the penalty.
00:20:58.19\00:21:00.66
There was a law,
the Ten Commandments,
00:21:01.19\00:21:04.73
and there was a
penalty for sin, and the model,
00:21:04.83\00:21:08.66
the picture that's
being described here, is that
00:21:11.03\00:21:14.14
we could take our
sins, we could confess them,
00:21:14.20\00:21:17.37
we could take them to
the tabernacle, to the
00:21:17.44\00:21:20.68
sanctuary, and we
could lay them on the head
00:21:20.71\00:21:23.95
of the lamb, and that
lamb would be our substitute.
00:21:23.98\00:21:27.05
[Rosemary]: And they'd
put their hand on the head
00:21:27.12\00:21:29.38
of the animal and confess
what they had done wrong-
00:21:29.45\00:21:32.72
make confession of specific sin.
[Dr.  string]: Yes. Now, the
00:21:32.79\00:21:36.96
reality is that the
penal substitution model has
00:21:37.03\00:21:39.83
not gone without its
objectives. People in
00:21:39.93\00:21:43.16
more recent times, and
particularly with some of
00:21:43.23\00:21:45.47
the feminist theology,
and things like that, have
00:21:45.53\00:21:48.94
found this concept of
penal substitution too, a little
00:21:49.00\00:21:52.94
bit, kind of, there's a
chauvinistic kind of tone
00:21:53.01\00:21:57.38
to it, you know? And
some of the new atheists
00:21:57.45\00:22:00.85
have actually made
the comment that this idea
00:22:01.45\00:22:04.09
of penal substitution
sounds like cosmic child
00:22:04.19\00:22:07.36
abuse where God sends
in His Child, His only Son,
00:22:07.46\00:22:13.46
forces Him to die on
the cross, and basically
00:22:15.50\00:22:19.07
belts Him, you know,
to smithereens just so
00:22:19.13\00:22:23.37
that we could walk
away free. It seems unfair,
00:22:23.44\00:22:27.41
it seems so harsh,
it seems so unnecessary
00:22:28.04\00:22:33.45
for a loving God. And
this is why we have been
00:22:33.98\00:22:38.29
led by some people in
the church, some theologians,
00:22:38.35\00:22:43.09
to look at models
which try and take away this
00:22:43.59\00:22:48.50
seemingly harshness
of the penal substitution
00:22:49.06\00:22:53.00
model. One of the
places that we have gone, and
00:22:53.07\00:22:58.34
some people have gone
in our church, is what we
00:22:58.41\00:23:02.14
call the healing substitution
model. I remember when
00:23:02.18\00:23:07.32
I was living in Western
Australia, I got a call.
00:23:07.38\00:23:11.45
I was working at Curtin
University as the chaplaincy
00:23:11.52\00:23:15.09
coordinator there,
and I got a call from a
00:23:15.16\00:23:17.83
young man, and he said,
"Look, I have this great
00:23:17.89\00:23:20.10
opportunity for you.
There's a speaker coming
00:23:20.16\00:23:23.60
to town, Dr.
Timothy Jennings. Would you
00:23:23.67\00:23:27.40
like him to be
able to speak at Curtin
00:23:27.47\00:23:30.64
University?" And I'd
never heard of Timothy Jennings,
00:23:30.71\00:23:34.18
and, you know, the
title "Doctor" is always a
00:23:34.24\00:23:35.74
good one. [Rosemary]:
Yes, that's why you have one.
00:23:35.81\00:23:38.45
[Dr.  string]: And
he said, "Look, there's
00:23:38.51\00:23:40.58
other churches which
are hosting him. Would you
00:23:40.65\00:23:45.75
like to be part of the
itinerary?" So, you know,
00:23:45.82\00:23:48.12
"Sure, not a problem."
And it was interesting,
00:23:48.79\00:23:51.13
a couple days later,
I got a call from one
00:23:51.19\00:23:54.33
of the church members
of where that young man
00:23:54.40\00:23:57.90
was worshiping and said,
"Do you actually know what
00:23:57.93\00:24:03.00
is gonna be presented?
The ideas?" And I said,
00:24:03.04\00:24:06.68
"Well, no!" He's Adventist,
he's a doctor, I don't know.
00:24:06.74\00:24:12.25
And so she said to
me, "You need to look into
00:24:12.85\00:24:16.38
this and to find out
what Dr. Timothy Jennings
00:24:16.45\00:24:24.23
will be presenting."
And so, that is what
00:24:24.29\00:24:26.56
I did, I started to
dive into. The model that's
00:24:26.63\00:24:31.67
being presented is
what we'd call the healing
00:24:31.77\00:24:34.90
substitution model.
So unfortunately, there's
00:24:35.00\00:24:40.14
this complete rejection
of the penal substitution
00:24:40.21\00:24:44.31
model, which the idea
is that if we go back, it's
00:24:44.38\00:24:48.08
a Roman idea that you
have this imperial system
00:24:48.22\00:24:53.82
that imposes laws and
that there's this penalty,
00:24:54.39\00:25:00.36
this punishment, and
you need to fear this
00:25:00.50\00:25:04.33
God who's going to
cause you this penalty. So,
00:25:04.43\00:25:07.54
penal substitution
is completely wrong - we
00:25:07.64\00:25:10.81
need to move towards a
healing substitution model. So,
00:25:10.94\00:25:14.91
let me just explain
to you what the healing
00:25:14.98\00:25:18.45
substitution model is.
It's in some ways similar
00:25:18.55\00:25:22.55
to the moral
influence theory, but it goes a
00:25:22.68\00:25:24.72
little bit further.
So, first of all, it's this
00:25:24.82\00:25:27.56
idea that what we need
to understand is that God
00:25:27.66\00:25:31.79
is love. [Rosemary]: Yes,
we know that. [Dr.  string]: We
00:25:31.89\00:25:34.93
know that, yes. So,
Jesus came to demonstrate the
00:25:35.03\00:25:40.67
love of God, and to
heal us of the problem of
00:25:40.77\00:25:47.58
sin in our lives.
And so, what we have is
00:25:51.35\00:25:56.18
this reality that
Jesus come, He dies on the
00:25:56.28\00:26:01.69
cross for us to
destroy sin, but then He also
00:26:01.76\00:26:06.49
effectively imparts or
puts in place the perfect
00:26:09.83\00:26:15.04
law of God in the
hearts of humanity. Not you
00:26:15.14\00:26:18.61
in particular, but this
sort of abstract concept
00:26:18.71\00:26:21.38
of humanity. And then
in the process, He heals
00:26:21.51\00:26:24.68
you of your sin,
draws you back to God, and
00:26:24.81\00:26:28.68
then we can be at one.
There's no need for law,
00:26:28.78\00:26:31.42
there's no need for any
legal kind of system, it's
00:26:31.55\00:26:35.62
all about healing you
of the problem of sin.
00:26:35.72\00:26:39.09
[Rosemary]: Healing us of
our perverted selfishness,
00:26:39.19\00:26:44.80
our misunderstanding
of the love of God.
00:26:44.93\00:26:47.77
[Dr.  string]: That's
right. (x2) And in many
00:26:47.90\00:26:50.37
ways, this is a beautiful
reality. The fact is that
00:26:50.47\00:26:54.84
there is healing in
the life and death and
00:26:57.61\00:27:01.45
resurrection of
Jesus. If you go back with me
00:27:01.55\00:27:04.89
to Isaiah 53, I can read
this one for you. Isaiah 53.
00:27:04.99\00:27:13.83
What we find is that
it says here, Isaiah 53:5,
00:27:14.43\00:27:22.14
"And with His
stripes, we are healed." (x2)
00:27:23.10\00:27:28.64
And so, you have
that beautiful concept of
00:27:29.21\00:27:32.21
healing right there.
It's repeated in 1 Peter 2:24.
00:27:32.31\00:27:39.95
So if you come all
the way back to the end
00:27:40.06\00:27:41.52
of the Bible with me,
as well, 1 Peter 2:24...
00:27:41.62\00:27:49.10
[John]: I've got it
here, and the Bible says, "Ye
00:27:49.20\00:27:52.90
see then how that by
works, a man is justified,
00:27:53.00\00:27:57.14
and not by faith
only." [Rosemary]: Are you in
00:27:57.24\00:27:59.44
1 Peter or 2 Peter? [John]:
Um... [Rosemary]: 1 Peter.
00:27:59.54\00:28:04.58
[John]: Oh, sorry.
[Rosemary]: 1 Peter 2,
00:28:04.68\00:28:07.25
what was the verse again?
[John]: 24. I read the wrong
00:28:07.35\00:28:10.05
verse, yeah. 1 Peter
chapter 2 and verse 24,
00:28:10.15\00:28:13.69
"Who his own self bear
our sins in his own body
00:28:13.82\00:28:18.19
on the tree that we
being dead to sin should live
00:28:18.29\00:28:22.03
unto righteousness by
whose stripes you were
00:28:22.13\00:28:25.97
healed." That's quoting
Isaiah. [Dr.  string]: So,
00:28:26.07\00:28:30.01
there's certainly
healing power in Jesus' work.
00:28:30.11\00:28:33.94
There's no doubt about
it. [Rosemary]: And God does
00:28:34.01\00:28:35.34
give us a new heart that
isn't bathed in selfishness.
00:28:35.38\00:28:40.15
[Dr.  string]:
That's right, that's right.
00:28:40.25\00:28:43.39
And he writes his law
on our hearts, as well.
00:28:43.49\00:28:47.26
There's no doubt about
this at all. There's so
00:28:47.36\00:28:50.43
much that is true about
the healing substitution
00:28:50.53\00:28:56.46
model. The problem is
that what is rejected,
00:28:56.53\00:29:00.84
and that is that
the Bible actually talks
00:29:01.40\00:29:04.64
about this concept
of penal substitution in
00:29:04.74\00:29:08.88
terms of talks about
the penalty of sin, and
00:29:09.01\00:29:13.95
that Jesus stood in
our place and took that
00:29:14.05\00:29:17.92
penalty. That's the
really important thing
00:29:18.02\00:29:19.99
that the Bible
actually talks about it. There's
00:29:20.12\00:29:22.69
major problems that
we have with this healing
00:29:22.79\00:29:25.53
substitution model.
In fact, if we go to the
00:29:25.59\00:29:28.73
Spirit of Prophecy,
what we find is some really
00:29:28.83\00:29:32.80
clear passages which
picks us up and speaks
00:29:32.90\00:29:37.07
about it very, very
clearly. We find it in
00:29:37.17\00:29:39.87
The Desire of Ages.
So, I just wanted to share
00:29:40.88\00:29:45.01
with you this
beautiful quote. So if you don't
00:29:45.11\00:29:47.78
mind, I'll just
read that for you today.
00:29:47.88\00:29:50.79
Desire of Ages chapter
78, if I remember correctly,
00:29:52.29\00:29:57.13
page 753. And it reads
like this... [text on-screen]
00:29:57.26\00:30:02.50
Amazing.
[Rosemary]: He was actually
00:30:58.05\00:30:59.65
feeling what those
who do not repent of their
00:30:59.75\00:31:04.73
sins and claim Jesus as
their Saviour, what they
00:31:04.79\00:31:07.63
are actually going to
go through when it comes
00:31:07.73\00:31:10.27
to the final judgment.
They're going to feel that
00:31:10.37\00:31:12.73
withdrawing of God;
they're going to feel
00:31:13.44\00:31:15.80
that guilt upon
themselves in a way that it will
00:31:16.57\00:31:20.74
basically snuff out
their lives. He was feeling
00:31:21.98\00:31:25.78
that for anyone. He
took that on to take it away
00:31:25.88\00:31:29.72
so that those who
accept Him will never need to
00:31:29.82\00:31:31.99
experience it. [Dr.
 string]: Yes. He was
00:31:32.09\00:31:33.46
our substitute. He
stood in our place. He was
00:31:33.56\00:31:38.09
the Lamb of God who
was slain for the sins of
00:31:38.19\00:31:42.06
the world. But there's
another quote in Testimonies
00:31:42.16\00:31:46.23
that I want to share
with you, as well. Testimonies
00:31:46.77\00:31:51.07
vol. 2 and pg. 200. A
very, very powerful quote,
00:31:51.17\00:31:57.75
as well. Just wanted
to read that together
00:31:58.28\00:32:01.45
today, as well. [text on-screen]
00:32:01.58\00:32:05.29
So, I want you just
to notice all of the
00:33:04.01\00:33:06.38
words in this quote that relate
to a legal process which is
00:33:06.45\00:33:13.02
occurring through Jesus'
death on the cross for us.
00:33:13.09\00:33:16.19
Jesus takes the
penalty. It's the law which must
00:33:19.06\00:33:24.63
be satisfied. It's
God's nature that must be
00:33:25.83\00:33:30.11
satisfied, as well.
And this is where the moral
00:33:30.24\00:33:35.41
influence theory has
a major drawback, and
00:33:35.54\00:33:40.58
that is that it
says that it's only us as
00:33:40.68\00:33:44.15
human beings that need
to be reconciled to God.
00:33:44.22\00:33:46.42
There's nothing in
God that needs any kind
00:33:46.52\00:33:50.13
of reconciliation, and
the reality is this: We
00:33:50.23\00:33:54.76
need to recognize with
God's love comes in anger
00:33:54.86\00:33:58.33
towards sin. [John]:
Yeah. It's how God hates sin.
00:33:58.43\00:34:02.80
[Rosemary]: Well,
God hates sin because of
00:34:02.90\00:34:04.74
what it does. It brings
pain, it brings suffering,
00:34:04.84\00:34:08.51
it brings
selfishness into people's lives,
00:34:08.64\00:34:12.75
and that is so
opposed to God's character of
00:34:12.85\00:34:18.32
love that it hurts.
He sees what it does to
00:34:18.45\00:34:22.82
those He loves, His
creatures. And of course
00:34:22.92\00:34:27.33
He hates it!
Because of what it does.
00:34:27.43\00:34:29.93
[Dr.  string]: Yes.
You know, I think about a
00:34:30.07\00:34:33.34
situation, for example,
in Thailand where tourists
00:34:33.44\00:34:38.47
from the west, from
Australia and New Zealand,
00:34:38.57\00:34:41.41
from the states from
Europe, will actually go to
00:34:41.51\00:34:44.55
Thailand to be
involved in child prostitution.
00:34:44.68\00:34:51.52
And for me, the... I
don't know about you,
00:34:52.05\00:34:55.19
but I get angry at
that. I think for the little
00:34:55.86\00:35:00.20
child who has to go
through all of that...
00:35:00.30\00:35:03.13
No defense! And is sold
into that kind of slavery.
00:35:04.10\00:35:08.24
We must understand the
heart of God, that when
00:35:08.87\00:35:12.57
He observes, He knows,
He sees sin. There's an
00:35:12.67\00:35:17.65
anger, there's a
wrath that comes with that,
00:35:17.71\00:35:21.58
as well, and that's
really important that
00:35:21.68\00:35:23.79
there is a, with
God's anger, there's also
00:35:23.89\00:35:26.59
a penalty that
comes, as well. There's a
00:35:26.69\00:35:29.56
penalty which must be
carried out against sin.
00:35:29.66\00:35:33.23
[Rosemary]: Against sin.
[Dr.  string]: That's exactly
00:35:33.33\00:35:34.66
right. And so, the
amazing thing is this: What we
00:35:34.70\00:35:39.73
need to, with this
atonement, is see that it's like
00:35:39.83\00:35:43.10
a rainbow, or a kaleidoscope,
or a diamond where you
00:35:43.20\00:35:48.28
can actually turn it
from different angles
00:35:48.38\00:35:51.05
and say, "There's
another angle that I haven't
00:35:51.61\00:35:54.28
seen before!" And,
"There's another truth there!"
00:35:54.38\00:35:57.59
So, is it true that
Jesus was our ransom,
00:35:58.05\00:36:02.36
He was a ransom for sinners?
Yes, [He was]! Was Jesus'
00:36:02.86\00:36:08.23
death on the cross,
did it demonstrate the
00:36:08.30\00:36:10.63
love of God? Yes, it
did! Does it move us to
00:36:10.73\00:36:14.30
confess our sins?
Yes. It certainly does.
00:36:14.90\00:36:18.74
[Rosemary]: Did Jesus
die as our substitute?
00:36:19.31\00:36:22.18
Yes, He did! [Dr. 
string]: Yes, He did!
00:36:22.31\00:36:24.08
Absolutely. Is
there a penalty for sin?
00:36:24.25\00:36:26.51
Yes. [Rosemary]: Is
there a law? Does God have
00:36:26.61\00:36:29.52
a law which moral
influence and healing
00:36:29.62\00:36:33.76
substitution deny?
[Dr.  string]: Yes. (x2)
00:36:33.86\00:36:36.83
[Rosemary]: They say
that the law of God is an
00:36:36.89\00:36:39.39
impose thing that
we come up with. But
00:36:39.46\00:36:42.66
because "God is
love, there is no law." But
00:36:42.76\00:36:45.23
there is the law of
love, which is what the moral
00:36:45.33\00:36:48.20
code is. And that's
what rules the universe!
00:36:48.27\00:36:51.74
There is a law,
and it's ruled by love.
00:36:51.81\00:36:54.88
[Dr.  string]: Yes. And
it's this idea that penal
00:36:54.98\00:36:57.25
substitution comes from this
imperial- this dictatorship,
00:36:57.35\00:37:01.15
this arbitrary-imposed
law... Well, the fact
00:37:01.25\00:37:04.19
is that God does
have His Kingdom. He is
00:37:04.29\00:37:07.62
sovereign, but the
law that flows from His
00:37:07.72\00:37:10.93
sovereignty is a
law of love. It's not an
00:37:12.16\00:37:15.50
imposed law; it's a law
of love, which is so, so
00:37:15.60\00:37:18.57
important. So, when we
just focus on the healing
00:37:18.63\00:37:23.44
aspect of Jesus'
atonement and we reject the fact
00:37:23.51\00:37:28.21
that He was our substitute
in the terms of taking
00:37:28.31\00:37:31.51
the penalty for our
sin, we've lost a major part
00:37:31.61\00:37:35.88
of the biblical
record of the atonement.
00:37:35.98\00:37:38.52
[Rosemary]: That's
right. We're only getting part
00:37:38.62\00:37:40.19
of the story, and
there's a great other part of it
00:37:40.26\00:37:43.22
that is being missed
out. You have to have it
00:37:43.32\00:37:46.16
combined to get the
truth. That's where,
00:37:46.23\00:37:49.90
"To the law and
the testimony..." If it
00:37:49.96\00:37:52.07
misses out on any of
those aspects, you can
00:37:52.13\00:37:55.20
say, "It doesn't
fit God's model." And
00:37:55.30\00:37:59.31
those things that miss
out on a specific area,
00:37:59.41\00:38:02.71
either they
emphasize too much one way
00:38:02.78\00:38:04.45
or they emphasize the
other way and miss out
00:38:04.55\00:38:06.98
on the other part,
that's not the truth of God.
00:38:07.08\00:38:10.95
[Dr.  string]: Yes. And
there's a really interesting
00:38:11.05\00:38:12.55
observation which I've
made. I mean, I haven't
00:38:12.65\00:38:15.29
done a research
study, I haven't done a PhD
00:38:15.39\00:38:17.63
on this, but I've noticed
that health professionals
00:38:17.69\00:38:21.63
tend to gravitate towards
this healing substitution
00:38:22.36\00:38:25.07
model, because, as
health professionals, they are
00:38:25.17\00:38:29.64
in the healing
ministry, and I've got family
00:38:29.74\00:38:31.81
members who are health
professionals, as well.
00:38:31.94\00:38:33.88
And so, the issue,
though, is this: Do we project
00:38:33.98\00:38:38.08
our profession, and
project it up and say, "That's
00:38:38.15\00:38:41.78
all that God is"? Or
do we say, "No, we don't
00:38:41.88\00:38:46.15
just do it in terms
of our profession, but
00:38:46.25\00:38:48.99
we go to what the Bible
says and what the Spirit
00:38:49.06\00:38:51.39
of Prophecy says." Now,
there's a couple of corollaries
00:38:51.49\00:38:56.03
that I think it's
very important that we
00:38:56.13\00:38:58.40
understand in terms of
the healing substitution
00:38:58.47\00:39:00.84
model. These are really
where it starts to really
00:39:00.94\00:39:03.20
fall down, and that
is, first of all, with the
00:39:03.30\00:39:06.71
investigative
judgment. With the investigative
00:39:06.81\00:39:09.74
judgment, the healing
substitution model says
00:39:09.84\00:39:14.98
this: There's no
law, there's no court,
00:39:15.08\00:39:19.89
there's no books,
there's no record in
00:39:20.02\00:39:22.69
heaven. The issue is
their concept of God,
00:39:22.79\00:39:28.06
which has been corrupted.
So, the penal substitution
00:39:28.16\00:39:31.53
model has corrupted
our minds. What needs to
00:39:31.63\00:39:35.30
be cleansed is not
the heavenly records, but
00:39:35.40\00:39:38.74
our minds. So,
there's the sanctuary is not
00:39:38.84\00:39:43.48
an objective reality
in heaven; the sanctuary
00:39:43.58\00:39:47.52
is the lives of God's
people, and God cleanses
00:39:47.62\00:39:51.79
our minds. [Rosemary]:
And when it comes to judgment,
00:39:51.89\00:39:55.12
they also say that
those who don't accept Christ
00:39:55.22\00:39:57.86
as their
substitute, their final death is
00:39:57.99\00:40:02.70
just a natural outcome-
that God doesn't actually
00:40:02.76\00:40:06.97
kill them in any way. They
just die a natural oblivion.
00:40:07.07\00:40:12.91
[Dr.  string]: Yes.
Yes! That's another major
00:40:13.04\00:40:15.71
corollary. We'll
come back to that in just
00:40:15.78\00:40:17.68
a moment. But I want
to- this is so important.
00:40:17.75\00:40:19.95
I think it's really
important that we do
00:40:20.05\00:40:21.45
just the Bible
study necessary for this.
00:40:21.52\00:40:24.15
So, if we come back to
Hebrews- so just a book
00:40:24.22\00:40:30.49
or couple of books
over back towards the Old
00:40:30.63\00:40:34.03
Testament. Hebrews
9... Chapter 23 and...
00:40:34.13\00:40:40.30
[Rosemary]: Hebrews
9 and verses 23 and 24?
00:40:40.37\00:40:42.30
[Dr.  string]: That's the
one, yes. [Rosemary]: Okay, I'll
00:40:42.37\00:40:43.74
read them. Hebrews 9:23,
24, "It was therefore necessary
00:40:43.81\00:40:48.98
that the patterns of
things in the heavens
00:40:49.08\00:40:51.08
should be purified
with these, but the heavenly
00:40:51.58\00:40:55.22
things themselves
with better sacrifices and
00:40:55.28\00:40:57.75
these. For Christ
is not entered into the
00:40:57.82\00:41:00.86
Holy Place as made
with hands, which are the
00:41:00.96\00:41:03.16
figures of the true,
but into heaven itself now
00:41:03.26\00:41:06.90
to appear in the
presence of God for us."
00:41:07.00\00:41:09.40
[Dr.  string]: Mm.
Amazing. And also, come with me
00:41:09.50\00:41:11.60
to Revelation, 'cause
Revelation is also a very
00:41:11.70\00:41:14.57
powerful...revelation of
what's happening in heaven.
00:41:14.67\00:41:19.04
So, Revelation 15:5,
6. John, did you have that
00:41:19.14\00:41:26.45
for us today?
[John]: Yes, I do. Revelation
00:41:26.58\00:41:28.62
15:5, 6, and the
Bible says, "And after that,
00:41:28.72\00:41:33.02
I looked; and behold,
the temple of the tabernacle
00:41:33.15\00:41:36.36
of the testimony in
heaven was opened. And the seven
00:41:36.46\00:41:39.53
angels came out of the
temple having the seven
00:41:39.63\00:41:41.80
plagues clothed in
pure and white linen, and
00:41:41.86\00:41:44.43
having their breasts
girded with golden girdles."
00:41:44.53\00:41:47.87
So, it's a reality. [Dr.
 string]: It's a reality!
00:41:48.84\00:41:51.67
And this is a very interesting
kind of question- it's just
00:41:51.77\00:41:57.68
a logical question.
If we are the temple
00:41:57.75\00:42:00.72
in the sanctuary of
God, but Revelation says,
00:42:00.82\00:42:03.99
"Out of the
sanctuary come seven angels,"
00:42:04.09\00:42:06.35
does that mean to say
that seven angels come
00:42:06.45\00:42:09.06
out of us? It's an interesting
conundrum to- you know,
00:42:09.16\00:42:13.76
it just doesn't
make sense! (x2) But the
00:42:13.83\00:42:16.46
fact is this: Not
only is there an objective
00:42:16.56\00:42:19.17
sanctuary in heaven;
there's also a process
00:42:19.27\00:42:22.00
which is being accomplished
right now. Come back
00:42:22.14\00:42:24.37
with me to Daniel chapter
7. We know this very well
00:42:24.47\00:42:29.78
as the Seventh-day Adventist
community. Daniel chapter
00:42:29.84\00:42:34.95
7, and we're looking at
verses 9 and 10 here today.
00:42:35.02\00:42:40.79
[Rosemary]: Okay. "I
beheld till the thrones were
00:42:40.89\00:42:43.43
cast down, and the
ancient of days did sit whose
00:42:43.53\00:42:46.49
garment was white
as snow and the hair of
00:42:46.59\00:42:49.46
his head like the
pure wool. His throne was
00:42:49.53\00:42:51.67
like the fiery flame,
and his wheels as burning
00:42:51.77\00:42:54.20
fire. A fiery stream
issued and came forth
00:42:54.30\00:42:56.97
from before him. Thousand
thousands ministered unto
00:42:57.07\00:43:00.14
him, and ten thousand
times ten thousand stood
00:43:00.24\00:43:02.38
before him. The judgment was
set, and the books were opened."
00:43:02.44\00:43:06.41
Their books! [Dr. 
string]: Their books,
00:43:06.51\00:43:08.15
yes. Their records!
There's a judgment -
00:43:08.25\00:43:12.05
this is a very, very
key concept in the Bible
00:43:12.55\00:43:15.92
in terms of wrapping
up the problem of sin.
00:43:16.02\00:43:18.93
And in fact, it's not
just a cosmic judgment;
00:43:19.03\00:43:22.86
it's also very personal,
as well. And if you come
00:43:23.37\00:43:26.57
with me to 2 Corinthians-
very, very important
00:43:26.67\00:43:29.00
verse here-2 Corinthians
chapter 5 and verse 10. (x2)
00:43:30.11\00:43:38.88
If we read it together,
"For we must all appear
00:43:38.91\00:43:43.95
before the judgment
seat of Christ so that each
00:43:44.02\00:43:46.96
one may receive what is
due for what he has done
00:43:47.02\00:43:49.96
in the body, whether
good or evil." We must
00:43:50.06\00:43:52.59
all appear before the judgment
seat of God. Now, this is-
00:43:52.69\00:43:57.37
[Rosemary]: Ecclesiastes
12:14 says, "For God will
00:43:57.47\00:44:00.04
bring every work
into judgment, with every
00:44:00.14\00:44:02.87
secret thing, whether
it be good, or whether
00:44:02.97\00:44:05.11
it be evil." So,
everything will be brought back.
00:44:05.21\00:44:07.81
[Dr.  string]: Yes. Now,
here's a very interesting
00:44:07.94\00:44:09.84
point, and this is
the same problem that the
00:44:09.94\00:44:11.71
moral influence theory has,
and the healing substitution
00:44:11.81\00:44:15.38
model has, as well. The
healing substitution model
00:44:15.48\00:44:19.85
says that at the end
of the 2,300 days, the
00:44:19.95\00:44:23.59
sanctuary would be cleansed.
Now, that is God's people,
00:44:23.69\00:44:27.93
according to the substitution
model, and our ideas
00:44:28.00\00:44:30.27
need to be
cleansed. But here's a really
00:44:30.37\00:44:34.67
important point: What
about the dead who were
00:44:34.74\00:44:38.11
believers in Christ?
Do they have any ideas
00:44:38.17\00:44:41.41
in their mind? No. Can
their minds be cleansed?
00:44:41.51\00:44:47.28
[Rosemary]: No, they're dead.
[Dr.  string]: No, they're dead.
00:44:47.38\00:44:49.62
So what it means is that
the investigative judgment,
00:44:50.19\00:44:54.02
the pre-Advent
judgment, which is described in
00:44:54.69\00:44:57.23
Daniel 7, doesn't
apply to anybody who believed
00:44:57.33\00:45:02.83
in Christ and was
dead. So when Christ raises
00:45:02.93\00:45:06.17
them, we may have gone
through that process of
00:45:06.27\00:45:09.54
clearing those ideas,
but any of those believers
00:45:09.60\00:45:12.81
down through the Middle
Ages who believed in the
00:45:12.91\00:45:14.84
substitution model,
according to the healing
00:45:14.91\00:45:16.85
substitution model, has
actually not gone through
00:45:16.95\00:45:22.18
this very important
process in the atonement. So
00:45:22.28\00:45:26.25
can you see that
there's a fundamental deficiency
00:45:26.32\00:45:29.06
in this model? Very, very
important - very important
00:45:29.12\00:45:33.26
deficiency. [John]: And
the text is very clear. It
00:45:33.33\00:45:35.70
says, "For we must all
appear." That means every
00:45:35.76\00:45:38.70
one of us, you and I
and everyone. And while
00:45:38.80\00:45:41.84
Jesus died for the sins
of the world, that salvation
00:45:41.94\00:45:46.44
is only offered when you come
and repent and turn to Jesus.
00:45:46.51\00:45:50.81
[Rosemary]: In this
verse, it says that the dead
00:45:50.91\00:45:52.25
will be judged by
things that are in the book.
00:45:52.28\00:45:56.02
[Dr.  string]:
That's right. (x2) There's
00:45:56.12\00:45:57.75
another very important
thing about the healing
00:45:57.85\00:45:59.99
substitution model
we need to understand.
00:46:00.06\00:46:02.09
It actually comes from
an individualistic western
00:46:02.92\00:46:07.00
culture. It's all about
your healing, your ideas,
00:46:07.13\00:46:11.87
your heart that
needs to be healed. Whereas
00:46:12.00\00:46:15.07
what we see in Scripture
is the atonement is not
00:46:15.14\00:46:18.74
just about you-and I'm
sorry to make that point.
00:46:18.81\00:46:23.81
It is actually about
a much bigger reality,
00:46:23.95\00:46:26.58
and that's the whole
point of a justice system. It's
00:46:26.65\00:46:31.32
not just about the victim
or the criminal; it's about
00:46:31.45\00:46:36.19
the whole of society.
And so, the angels in heaven,
00:46:36.29\00:46:41.43
they have no sin that
they need to be healed of
00:46:41.56\00:46:43.47
that they can
understand, but they need to be
00:46:44.07\00:46:48.20
able to see that
justice is done and the justice
00:46:48.30\00:46:51.97
is worked out. Do
you see my point here?
00:46:52.07\00:46:54.74
[Rosemary]: Yes.
[Dr.  string]: It's very,
00:46:54.84\00:46:56.18
very important. So, the
whole process of judgment
00:46:56.21\00:47:00.98
is not just about transforming
your ideas and healing
00:47:01.08\00:47:05.22
your mind and your
heart. Now, there's a second
00:47:05.79\00:47:08.06
corollary, and you
mentioned this before, Rosemary,
00:47:08.16\00:47:10.66
which is that the healing
substitution model wrecks
00:47:10.76\00:47:14.96
havoc with the
final judgment, as well.
00:47:15.06\00:47:18.30
Because the idea is
that there was no punishment
00:47:18.40\00:47:24.94
for sin, which
Jesus actually took, what
00:47:25.07\00:47:28.24
this means is that
there's no punishment for the
00:47:28.34\00:47:31.55
wicked at the end.
It's a natural consequence.
00:47:31.65\00:47:35.25
But I want to tell
you here today that the
00:47:35.35\00:47:38.32
reality is, that's not
a biblical understanding,
00:47:38.39\00:47:41.26
and there's so many examples.
I want you to come with
00:47:41.39\00:47:44.06
me to Genesis
chapter 6 and verse 17. (x2)
00:47:44.13\00:47:53.67
We just see what happened
here way back at the beginning.
00:47:55.84\00:48:02.08
Genesis 6:17.
[Rosemary]: And behold,
00:48:02.21\00:48:07.68
I, even I, do bring
a flood of waters upon
00:48:07.78\00:48:10.22
the earth to destroy
all flesh, wherein is the
00:48:10.32\00:48:15.26
breath of life from
under heaven, and everything
00:48:15.36\00:48:19.83
that is in the earth shall die."
[Dr.  string]: The question
00:48:19.93\00:48:22.86
is, who brought the
flood upon the earth?
00:48:22.96\00:48:25.43
God! God did,
right? It wasn't a natural
00:48:27.54\00:48:31.54
consequence. (x2)
And we can keep on going
00:48:31.64\00:48:36.31
just a few chapters
over. Genesis 19:24, 25.
00:48:36.44\00:48:43.92
If you could read
that for us, John.
00:48:44.95\00:48:47.66
[John]: The Bible
says, "Then the Lord rained
00:48:47.72\00:48:50.63
upon Sodom and
upon Gomorrah brimstone
00:48:51.29\00:48:54.40
and fire from the
Lord out of heaven, and He
00:48:54.46\00:48:57.50
overthrew those
cities and all the plain and
00:48:57.63\00:49:00.20
all the inhabitants
of the cities, and that
00:49:00.30\00:49:02.57
which grew upon the ground.
[Dr.  string]: Yes. So who
00:49:02.67\00:49:05.31
rained fire and
sulfur on the cities of Sodom
00:49:05.37\00:49:08.38
and Gomorrah? [John]: God did.
00:49:08.48\00:49:09.81
[Dr.  string]: God
did. Was that a natural
00:49:09.84\00:49:12.05
consequence? [Rosemary]: No.
[Dr.  string]: No, it wasn't.
00:49:12.11\00:49:14.15
It wasn't. Because otherwise,
we'd see fire and brimstone
00:49:14.75\00:49:18.05
being rained down on
Kings Cross (Sydney, Australia),
00:49:18.15\00:49:21.12
on San Francisco, places where
hospitality and immorality...
00:49:21.19\00:49:28.93
[Rosemary]: It's a natural
outflow, not as God doing it.
00:49:29.03\00:49:32.67
[Dr.  string]: Yes.
(x2) So, that is way back
00:49:32.77\00:49:35.47
in the Old
Testament. What about the final
00:49:35.57\00:49:38.57
judgment? Come down
with me to Ezekiel. This is a
00:49:38.67\00:49:41.94
prophetic picture
of what happens at the
00:49:42.01\00:49:44.48
end of time. Ezekiel
chapter 38 and verse 22.
00:49:44.58\00:49:51.15
Now, I don't have
time to share with you the
00:49:51.25\00:49:54.82
exegetical linkages
with Revelation here. But
00:49:54.92\00:49:58.86
we can look at that if
you want to read Ezekiel
00:49:59.59\00:50:03.26
38 and 39. But Ezekiel
38:22 says, "With pestilence
00:50:03.33\00:50:09.74
and bloodshed,
I'll enter into judgment
00:50:09.84\00:50:11.64
within, and I'll rain
upon him and his hordes
00:50:11.71\00:50:14.48
and the many people who
are with him, torrential
00:50:14.58\00:50:16.98
rains and
hailstones, fire and sulfur."
00:50:17.05\00:50:20.18
Talking about Satan and
his hosts. And if we come
00:50:20.28\00:50:24.92
down to Revelation 20:9,
we pick up this final picture
00:50:25.75\00:50:32.59
of what happens in
the final judgment. So,
00:50:33.56\00:50:36.83
Revelation 20:9.
[John]: And the Bible says,
00:50:36.93\00:50:41.27
"And they went up on
the breadth of the earth
00:50:41.37\00:50:44.01
and compassed the
camp of the saints about
00:50:44.11\00:50:46.14
and the beloved city,
and the fire came down
00:50:46.81\00:50:49.44
from God out of
heaven and devoured them.
00:50:49.54\00:50:52.05
[Dr.  string]: Yes. So
where does the fire come from?
00:50:52.15\00:50:55.15
From God out of heaven.
It's not a natural consequence.
00:50:55.78\00:50:59.39
This is supernatural.
Why? Because God is a
00:50:59.89\00:51:03.83
God of love. God is
love. There's two reasons why
00:51:03.93\00:51:07.76
God actively destroys
and punishes the wicked.
00:51:07.86\00:51:12.63
Well first of all,
justice needs to be done. You
00:51:12.77\00:51:15.64
know, Hitler could
go into an underground
00:51:15.74\00:51:20.04
bunker, pull out a
revolver, and shoot himself, and
00:51:21.54\00:51:25.01
avoid all the consequences
of justice...just like that.
00:51:25.11\00:51:28.58
But for the 6
million Jews and the Gypsies
00:51:29.28\00:51:32.49
and all of the other
people, they deserve justice
00:51:32.55\00:51:36.06
to be done. They really
do. But there's a second
00:51:36.16\00:51:38.89
reason, as well,
which is that God does not
00:51:38.99\00:51:42.66
want the wicked to
continue on indefinitely,
00:51:42.76\00:51:47.20
or a long period of
time, I should say, living in
00:51:47.30\00:51:50.07
the hell of their own making,
if I could put it that way.
00:51:50.17\00:51:53.07
There's a time when
we've seen the consequences
00:51:53.71\00:51:59.05
of sin, and we know
where these generals and the
00:51:59.15\00:52:02.75
armies and the prostitutes
and the pimps, and all
00:52:02.85\00:52:06.09
of those people - God
loves all of them. But
00:52:06.19\00:52:09.32
if they cling onto
their sin, God comes and says,
00:52:09.39\00:52:11.69
"I'm not going to
allow these people to suffer
00:52:12.19\00:52:14.00
more than they need to.
I'm actually going to put
00:52:14.06\00:52:16.87
an end to it." And then
there's a third reason, as well.
00:52:16.93\00:52:19.80
God needs to put an end
to sin for the righteous,
00:52:20.64\00:52:25.24
for the angels, for
Himself, as well. We need to
00:52:25.77\00:52:29.44
have sin over and done
with. [Rosemary]: There's
00:52:29.54\00:52:31.58
another reason, too.
God doesn't want to keep
00:52:31.61\00:52:34.45
people who love sin. He
doesn't want them to live
00:52:34.52\00:52:37.89
in eternity in a
place where there is no sin,
00:52:37.95\00:52:41.16
where they will be in
torment being there in
00:52:41.22\00:52:43.43
His presence,
because they don't want to be
00:52:43.53\00:52:45.19
with Him, and they
don't love Him. And so He
00:52:45.29\00:52:47.83
stops them from
having to do that. In love,
00:52:47.93\00:52:51.33
He has to cease their
lives so that they don't
00:52:51.43\00:52:55.57
have to experience
that. [John]: You know, Sven,
00:52:55.67\00:52:57.44
when you read the
Bible, it's a lie of Satan to
00:52:59.11\00:53:01.81
think that God will
not punish, because it's
00:53:01.91\00:53:03.65
the devil who said
to Eve, "You shall not
00:53:03.78\00:53:06.72
surely die." But
all we're talking about
00:53:06.85\00:53:09.98
here reveals that God
wants to eliminate sin,
00:53:10.05\00:53:12.75
and people will
die. [Rosemary]: At this
00:53:13.29\00:53:15.26
time, we're going to
have to go to our address
00:53:15.36\00:53:18.16
roll. What I want to
do is direct you to the
00:53:18.23\00:53:21.46
address we're gonna
put on the screen; write it
00:53:21.53\00:53:23.90
down. If you've got any
more questions about this
00:53:23.97\00:53:26.23
topic that you would
like to direct to Dr. Sven,
00:53:26.33\00:53:31.21
Pastor Sven. We will
be happy to pass them on,
00:53:31.31\00:53:34.08
and you're gonna get
them. If people write them in,
00:53:34.84\00:53:37.61
we'll do that. And so,
please write down these
00:53:37.71\00:53:39.71
details. If you want
to contact us at 3ABN
00:53:39.81\00:53:41.68
Australia for any
reason or make a donation, this
00:53:41.82\00:53:44.25
is where you do it.
00:53:44.35\00:53:45.69
If you would like to
contact 3ABN Australia, you may
00:53:49.62\00:53:52.03
do so in the
following ways. You may write to
00:53:52.13\00:53:54.46
3ABN Australia PO Box 752
00:53:54.56\00:53:58.00
Morisset New South
Wales 2264 Australia
00:53:58.07\00:54:02.04
That's, Post Office Box 752
00:54:02.17\00:54:04.94
Morisset NSW 2264 Australia.
00:54:05.04\00:54:08.94
Or, you may call +61249733456
00:54:09.08\00:54:13.65
That's, 0249733456,
from 8:30 AM to 5 PM
00:54:13.75\00:54:20.42
Monday to Thursday. Or,
8:30 AM to 12 PM Fridays,
00:54:20.49\00:54:24.96
New South Wales
time. You may also email us
00:54:25.06\00:54:28.10
at mail@3abnaustralia.org.au
00:54:28.20\00:54:37.17
Thank you for all you do
to help us light the world
00:54:40.11\00:54:42.34
with the glory of God's truth.
00:54:42.41\00:54:44.61
[Rosemary]: We have Dr.
Sven  string with us, and we're
00:54:46.95\00:54:49.82
talking about atonement and
judgment- what is the truth of
00:54:49.88\00:54:53.09
it, and what is not.
One of the things, Sven,
00:54:53.19\00:54:56.19
that I have found with
the healing substitution
00:54:56.29\00:55:00.30
and moral influences,
we've talked before about
00:55:00.40\00:55:04.80
laying hands on the
animal and confessing
00:55:04.90\00:55:06.90
specific sins, and also
there's another verse we read
00:55:07.04\00:55:11.34
that talked about
the same sort of thing of
00:55:11.44\00:55:13.41
specific sin. It
was with the Israelites
00:55:14.18\00:55:16.75
when they were around
the golden calf. Moses
00:55:16.85\00:55:19.25
said, "I will see if I
can make reconciliation for
00:55:19.35\00:55:22.15
you for your sin,"
and he was talking about
00:55:22.22\00:55:24.79
this specific sin. But
those with moral influence
00:55:24.85\00:55:28.46
and healing substitution
believe that Christ died
00:55:28.56\00:55:32.46
for us because we are
sinful, not for specific
00:55:32.56\00:55:36.23
sins. We never have
to confess specific sins.
00:55:36.33\00:55:38.83
What do you say about
that? [Dr.  string]: It is so
00:55:38.90\00:55:41.47
important to recognize
that we do have a sinful
00:55:41.57\00:55:45.41
nature. That's absolutely
right. We inherited that
00:55:45.47\00:55:50.81
from Adam and Eve, and
that's the consequence.
00:55:50.91\00:55:55.78
I think this is a really
important thing to remember,
00:55:55.88\00:55:58.92
as well - particularly
for our parents who are
00:55:59.02\00:56:03.32
viewing and joining
us today - and that is
00:56:03.96\00:56:06.73
that the choices that
you are making right now
00:56:07.96\00:56:11.37
will have a long-term
impact on what happens
00:56:11.97\00:56:18.44
in the lives of your
children and grandchildren,
00:56:18.57\00:56:22.08
and great-grandchildren, as
well. [Rosemary]: And friends.
00:56:22.18\00:56:24.48
[Dr.  string]: And friends,
as well. But the key thing
00:56:24.58\00:56:27.42
is that-I've
really thought about this,
00:56:27.52\00:56:32.75
as well-that is that in
terms of your sinfulness,
00:56:32.82\00:56:37.53
you cannot disassociate
your sinfulness from
00:56:37.63\00:56:41.50
specific actions.
You cannot disassociate
00:56:41.60\00:56:45.67
your sinfulness
from specific thoughts,
00:56:45.73\00:56:48.10
and specific words,
as well, 'cause that ends
00:56:48.20\00:56:51.27
up with a dualism.
That's part of the interesting
00:56:51.37\00:56:56.88
thing with the
healing substitution model:
00:56:56.98\00:56:59.81
Jesus and His work on
the cross, He restores
00:57:02.08\00:57:08.12
the perfect law of
God into humanity - this
00:57:08.22\00:57:14.06
kind of abstract
human species, rather than,
00:57:14.16\00:57:18.50
necessarily, into
you and I as real people.
00:57:18.57\00:57:22.44
The thing is that
actions are real. So from our
00:57:22.50\00:57:26.64
sinfulness, that
flows into our actions and
00:57:26.74\00:57:32.55
our words, as well.
It's really, really important
00:57:32.71\00:57:34.92
to remember that.
[Rosemary]: This is an
00:57:34.98\00:57:36.82
important subject
that we've been talking
00:57:36.95\00:57:39.25
about today. I urge
you to read your Bible and
00:57:39.32\00:57:43.26
understand it as God
wrote it. God bless you.
00:57:43.32\00:57:45.99
[lullaby-like outro]
00:57:46.06\00:57:50.30