This is 3ABN Now with
John and Rosemary Malkiewycz.
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Hello. Thank you for
joining us on 3ABN Now.
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I know that over the weeks,
over the years, we've been doing
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this it's been a real
privilege to meet with people
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from different
parts of the world.
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And today we have
with us Dr. James Gibson.
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I thank you for
joining us. It's a pleasure!
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And he is the director of
Geoscience Research Institute
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at Loma Linda, California.
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Now that's an
interesting title: director.
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So you are over the whole
Geoscience Research Institute,
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is that right? Well,
it's a small institute
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so it's not that big, but
yes, I have the responsibility
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of kind of keeping things going,
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trying to help
everybody do their work.
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Just give us a very short idea
of what the Geoscience Research
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Institute does. Oh,
thank you for asking.
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The Geoscience Research In-
stitute is a group of scientists
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studying the relationship
of science and faith - um-hmm -
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particularly in
the area of creation...
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Biblical creation and, of
course, that includes evolution
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and geology, and
philosophy and so on.
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But we're part of the
Seventh-day Adventist church -
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um-hmm - established
particularly for that purpose.
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Umm! And most people
don't know very much about us
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but actually we
were established in 1958.
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Umm! So we're 60+ years old now.
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That's very interesting
'cause I think of 1958
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when the DNA
was first discovered
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so it actually made a
change in a lot of the thinking
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of a lot of men in science.
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So... Well I've got a
Bible verse that you have chosen
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for the program
today and it's John 10:10.
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And this is one
I hear quite often
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from Danny Shelton on 3ABN.
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And it says:
"The thief cometh not
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but for to steal and
to kill and to destroy.
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I am come that
they might have life
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and that they might
have it more abundantly. "
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Why have you
chosen that verse today?
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Well I like... I'm
a biologist, right?
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I study life, and this text
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has I suppose two
relationships there.
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One is it's focused toward life.
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Jesus is the One who
brought... who created life.
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So He's the foundation of
biology in a sense you see?
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But of course in this
context He's talking about
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more than that. He's
talking about the ABUNDANT life
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as a Christian. That He
brings an extra dimension
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that isn't there from
what you might call the biology
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but the spirituality.
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And so there's a
dual meaning there
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and I like that... I like that.
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As opposed to the devil
who wants to kill and maim
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and destroy. Yes! In
Hebrews it says He came to
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destroy the one who has
the power of death: the devil.
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That is a contrast
there... very big contrast.
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I like the concept of abundant
life because as human beings
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we have the ability
to think through things.
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We have the ability to choose.
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That's really giving
a little extra dimension
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to the rest of the species. Yes!
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And we can create! So
it's really interesting.
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You know, I'm glad you're
here because I just want to ask
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a little bit about you
first 'cause I know some of the
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viewers out there may
not know too much about you.
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Where were you born?
Tell us a little bit about
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yourself and your family.
I was born in California.
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Spent most of my
life in California.
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We did move out of
state for 3 years to Missouri:
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another state there in
the central United States.
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And I spent 4 years in
West Africa in the country
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of Sierra Leone... OK...
teaching there: teaching biology
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and mathematics and
things like that. Yes.
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So I have had a
very special opportunity
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to grow in that
environment. So you are married?
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You have
children? Grandchildren?
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I'm married... I'm married
to... My wife was a dietitian.
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OK. So she's looked
after you well, I can see.
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She's fed me very well.
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I have to develop self-
discipline to not get overfed
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'cause she's an excellent cook.
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But we've had two
daughters... two children.
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They're both grown
now... they both have children.
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I am blessed to
have 12 grandchildren!
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Really? Just from two daughters?
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Just from two
daughters, yes. Laughter.
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You've done well.
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So are there any
following in the lines of dad or
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grandchildren that
are looking? Well...
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one daughter took a
science: chemistry. Um-hmm.
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And the other
daughter took education.
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But they've been pretty
busy with large families
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and so... Yeah, that's true!
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So just tell me in
your early stage of life
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when you were young
your parents were Christian?
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Yes, they were in fact teachers.
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They were teachers. OK, so...
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along the way did you ever
feel that you have a calling
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one day to be a
scientist and what you do?
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Well why did you choose that?
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That's an interesting
question. I wouldn't say that...
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I started out as a biology
teacher as a matter of fact.
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And... So you
went into teaching?
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I went into teaching
despite my conviction
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that I didn't want to do that
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but just came naturally I guess.
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And I wanted to
progress a little further.
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You know, get a
little more education.
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When I finished my Ph.D.
I started looking for a job
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and there was a job at
Geoscience Research Institute.
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Interesting!
Interesting place to work.
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So how long have you been
with Geoscience Institute?
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Oh, do you really want to
know? I really want to know!
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Well, I started in 1984.
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OK! So 35 years.
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Thirty-five years! Really?
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So you had a good background to
be able... to be the director.
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I haven't been
director all that time but...
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No, but to be the director now
you've been there for a period
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of time that shows it's a
good place. How is the Institute
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recognized in the world
in the field of what we are
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talking about?
Well, there's probably not
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a one-size-fits-all
answer for that.
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We do have some on the
staff who are doing ordinary -
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or I should say extraordinary
- science research.
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OK. We have one man who
is studying geochemistry
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of granites for example,
and he's gotten quite a bit of
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credibility in the scientific
community. He's published
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papers on that subject
and there's a big study group
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on that. He's
quite successful in that.
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Another person who is studying
fossil whales in South America
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and also publishing and so on.
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And so we have people
who are well established
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in the scientific community.
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But we also have
people working in media
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that is producing videos
and we do a lot of creation
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conferences, and so the
attitude that someone would have
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I think would be shaped strongly
by their attitude toward
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the activities
we're involved. OK.
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So there'd be some
high respect for science,
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some who would say: "Well,
we don't like your creation
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bent. " But then of course from
among those who are creationists
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I think we have
good standing. Yeah.
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We're not as well
known as perhaps we should be
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but those who know us I think
have a high... I think we're
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well respected.
Very good. Excellent.
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Now what I want to know is:
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what? We're going to
learn about species today.
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OK. And I want you
to get the ball rolling
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'cause I really want
to find out about this.
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It sounds so interesting.
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All right. So
evolution and species.
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Where do they fit
together? Good question.
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And so what we'll
try to do is talk about
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how a creationist views the
question of change in species.
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All right. So, is change in
species the same as evolution?
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See that's an
important distinction to make.
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Evolution requires change in
species. It's all about that.
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But evolution is a big theory
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and is usually... Of
course the word is used
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in a variety of
meanings, but as usually meant
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in this context
it's the theory that
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life began as a simple cell
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and diversified
over long ages of time
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to the point where the diversity
reached what we see today.
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Um-hmm. So that
from this one original
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let's call it a
bacterium we now have gum trees
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kangaroos, people - um-hmm
- fish... Flowers; flowers,
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sea creatures... all of
that having a common ancestry
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down to a single bacterium.
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That's what we
usually mean by evolution
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in terms of it's
contrast with creation. Um-hmm.
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But change in species can apply
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at a much lesser degree. Um-hmm.
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And a creationist I
think would be inclined to
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interpret the change in species
as not the same as evolution.
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Evolution is a...
kind of a philosophy.
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It has developed into
a philosophical approach.
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And so a creationist
would have a different
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philosophical
approach, but change in species
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could fit into a
creationist philosophy. Um-hmm.
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So it depends on the
degree? Whether it's micro
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or macro if I could put
it that way. Yes! You can use
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those terms: microevolution
vs. macroevolution.
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And those terms don't
have a very precise definition.
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Hmm. But in what we
might call practical terms
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just as we use it micro
evolution is the kind of change
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we can observe as
we look at a species.
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And I think a
familiar example is dogs.
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Um-hmm. Dogs we know
have great variability.
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It's an
interesting example actually.
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I just was alerted to a
particular scientific paper
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where someone studied
the different breeds of dogs
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looking at their skull and
the arrangement of the bones
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and so on... proportions.
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And they compared the
variability among dogs.
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That's one species
and they determined -
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and this is not a
creationist view -
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OK - they determined that
the variability within that one
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species was greater than was
found in the entire dog family
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including the South African,
the South American dogs,
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the Indian dogs, the Asian
dogs. Dogs all over the world
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had actually less variability
than just this one species
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from within that
same family. Yes.
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And so that
illustrates I think the idea of
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change in species without this
evolutionary kind of conclusion
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that's derived from it. Hmm.
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That's a very good point...
that's an excellent point.
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Because in
evolution it's one species
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evolving into another species.
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Yes... but more than that
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it's one species
developing new body parts,
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new kind... not
just a... well...
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I guess I'm struggling
with the idea of species.
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But new body parts and that
kind of thing. Inventing things.
00:12:12.79\00:12:15.66
Creative. And we don't see that.
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They've still got two
eyes and mouth... Yes!
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and the same features.
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We don't see things developing
wings when they didn't have
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wings before. Um-hmm. We
don't see things developing
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kidneys when they
didn't have kidneys before.
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Those are examples
of... of well, of creation
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or invention so to
speak. That's right.
00:12:37.22\00:12:40.32
So what does the Bible
say about change in species?
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You know, that's a good starting
point. What does the Bible say
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about change in species?
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Well, let's look
first at Genesis 3.
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Genesis chapter 3 where
God is interviewing Adam
00:12:54.54\00:13:00.04
and Eve after they have fallen.
00:13:00.24\00:13:02.04
And it turns out the serpent
00:13:02.88\00:13:06.25
was involved in this
situation and this problem
00:13:06.45\00:13:10.19
and God put a curse on
the serpent and He said:
00:13:10.39\00:13:12.62
"You're cursed, Mr. Serpent,
and you're going to crawl
00:13:12.82\00:13:16.22
on your belly from now on. "
00:13:16.42\00:13:17.76
Hmm! Well, if he had already
been crawling on his belly
00:13:17.89\00:13:23.00
there wouldn't be any
curse to crawling on his belly.
00:13:23.20\00:13:25.83
So the implication is he
wasn't crawling on his belly.
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Probably had legs
or wings or whatever.
00:13:29.47\00:13:31.81
But now it's going to be a
change: he's going to crawl
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on his belly. So the curse
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due to sin has
caused changes in species.
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Um-hmm. Good point.
Another... another example
00:13:43.69\00:13:48.42
of what the Bible says or
what we can infer from that
00:13:48.62\00:13:51.19
is in Genesis 1, I
think it's about verse 30
00:13:51.39\00:13:54.40
it says: "I have provided...
" God says: "I have provided
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food for all the
land creatures. "
00:13:58.90\00:14:01.67
Well, when you look around today
00:14:01.87\00:14:03.71
you don't see all the
land creatures eating plants.
00:14:03.91\00:14:07.48
They're eating each
other; some are eating plants.
00:14:07.68\00:14:09.71
There's been some
changes, and all of us wonder
00:14:09.91\00:14:12.08
were there predators
in the Garden of Eden?
00:14:12.28\00:14:16.28
Well I don't think so.
00:14:16.69\00:14:18.02
The Bible says they all
ate plants. That's right!
00:14:18.05\00:14:21.39
But now we have this
violence; there is a change.
00:14:21.59\00:14:24.33
And that goes along
also with Genesis 6.
00:14:24.53\00:14:26.90
If you look in Genesis 6:11-13
00:14:27.10\00:14:30.10
it talks about God coming
to Noah and saying: "Noah,
00:14:30.30\00:14:33.87
things have gotten so bad
down here I'm going to destroy
00:14:34.07\00:14:36.77
the world. " Um-hmm. And
then God gave two examples
00:14:36.97\00:14:41.88
of how bad things are:
00:14:42.08\00:14:43.41
the earth was filled
with violence - um-hmm -
00:14:43.81\00:14:46.58
violence is one of
the reasons - yes -
00:14:46.78\00:14:48.35
and all flesh had
corrupted its way.
00:14:48.55\00:14:51.82
So what God had
created and called "very good"
00:14:52.02\00:14:55.66
had now become so
corrupt He needed to destroy it.
00:14:55.86\00:14:59.96
Very bad, in fact. Very bad!
00:15:00.16\00:15:01.70
So the Bible actually
says species have changed.
00:15:01.90\00:15:07.30
I mean it can't avoid it.
00:15:07.50\00:15:09.44
Romans 8 says: "We
know that all creation
00:15:09.64\00:15:13.98
is groaning under the curse. "
00:15:14.18\00:15:16.21
So all creation is
groaning under the curse
00:15:16.91\00:15:22.85
and so much change has
occurred since the beginning.
00:15:23.05\00:15:26.05
Well there's even with
Adam and Eve in the garden
00:15:26.25\00:15:28.92
where God told them
after they had sinned
00:15:29.12\00:15:31.69
that there was going
to be difficulty. Right.
00:15:31.89\00:15:34.46
He said that thorns and
briars are going to grow now -
00:15:34.66\00:15:37.97
right - whereas
nothing before was like that.
00:15:38.17\00:15:40.47
Everything was "very good;
" everything was beautiful.
00:15:40.67\00:15:42.80
Nothing would
hurt you. Good example!
00:15:43.00\00:15:45.14
But now there's going to
be thorns and briars on like
00:15:45.34\00:15:47.41
the roses. They've
got thorns on them. Yes.
00:15:47.61\00:15:49.31
They wouldn't
have had thorns before.
00:15:49.51\00:15:51.01
Very good. Good point. It
adds to the plant kingdom.
00:15:51.21\00:15:55.22
The idea that this
change occurs to plants also.
00:15:55.42\00:15:58.35
But some people have
said: "Wait a minute!
00:15:59.25\00:16:01.96
Doesn't the Bible say
all animals will reproduce
00:16:02.26\00:16:04.96
after their kind? "
Yeah, that word kind.
00:16:05.16\00:16:07.26
"And doesn't that mean
that they can't change? "
00:16:07.46\00:16:09.36
I'll tell a little
story from my own experience.
00:16:10.37\00:16:12.87
When I first joined Geoscience
00:16:13.07\00:16:14.87
I wanted to give a
talk on change in species
00:16:15.07\00:16:18.01
and I wanted to find the
text that said animals reproduce
00:16:18.97\00:16:22.38
after their kind. I knew it was
there but I didn't know where.
00:16:22.58\00:16:25.45
So I started looking.
00:16:25.65\00:16:27.18
So I looked in Genesis 1-
um-hmm - and there it says
00:16:27.38\00:16:30.15
"after their kind" but it didn't
say anything about reproduction.
00:16:30.35\00:16:33.49
It says God created
them "after their kind. "
00:16:33.69\00:16:36.02
That has nothing to do with
repro... OK, let's look around.
00:16:36.22\00:16:38.29
Oh, Genesis 6! There it
says "after their kind" again
00:16:38.69\00:16:42.40
but it doesn't say
anything about reproduction.
00:16:43.00\00:16:44.77
It says they're going into
the ark "after their kind. "
00:16:44.97\00:16:46.87
Um-hmm. Oh... Leviticus 11
00:16:47.07\00:16:50.21
"after their kinds" again.
00:16:50.41\00:16:52.37
Well again, nothing
to do with reproduction.
00:16:52.57\00:16:54.91
It has to do with whether
they're clean or unclean.
00:16:55.11\00:16:57.11
And I sat back and I thought:
00:16:57.51\00:17:00.15
"The Bible doesn't say it. "
00:17:00.35\00:17:02.38
I KNEW it said it... but I
was wrong. It doesn't say it!
00:17:02.58\00:17:07.82
And I thought: "Wow! OK! "
00:17:08.02\00:17:10.49
Well we all know
animals have changed
00:17:10.69\00:17:12.86
but I thought the Bible
said they had to reproduce after
00:17:13.06\00:17:15.43
their kind. The
Bible doesn't say that.
00:17:15.63\00:17:17.07
Hmm! I was... I was surprised!
00:17:17.27\00:17:21.60
It was a learning moment.
So what was the conclusion
00:17:21.80\00:17:24.47
you came to? Ahh... thank you!
00:17:24.67\00:17:27.01
What DOES it say? It
says God created them
00:17:27.74\00:17:31.45
of different kinds. That
means that when He created
00:17:31.65\00:17:36.02
it wasn't just some ancestry
that He used to cause evolution.
00:17:36.22\00:17:39.82
No! There were many
many kinds when He began!
00:17:40.02\00:17:43.93
And so the idea of diversity...
00:17:44.59\00:17:49.16
Diversity is not something that
00:17:49.36\00:17:53.44
God used evolution to cause.
00:17:53.64\00:17:56.64
It's something He started with.
00:17:56.84\00:17:58.74
Um-hmm. Because plants are...
00:17:58.94\00:18:02.34
You could say:
"Are plants one kind? "
00:18:02.54\00:18:04.71
Well they're created on a
separate day from the animals.
00:18:04.91\00:18:07.68
Um-hmm. OK...
and then in the text
00:18:07.88\00:18:10.35
it says He created herbs of
the field and trees with fruit
00:18:10.55\00:18:14.96
bearing seed. Well there's
already two different kinds
00:18:15.16\00:18:16.93
of plants. Um-hmm. And
then He's talking about kinds
00:18:17.13\00:18:20.03
of those, so there's diversity
there from the beginning.
00:18:20.23\00:18:23.40
Likewise on day 5 in the land
animals and the sea creatures
00:18:23.80\00:18:27.64
there are kinds plural.
00:18:27.84\00:18:30.01
Different kinds of kinds.
00:18:30.21\00:18:32.61
And likewise on day
6 in the land animals.
00:18:33.01\00:18:35.68
The beasts of the field;
the beasts of the forest;
00:18:35.88\00:18:37.55
creeping things. There's
different kinds, each of which
00:18:37.75\00:18:40.92
is plural. Um-hmm. So
what is really being said
00:18:41.08\00:18:44.42
I think in Genesis 1 when it
talks about after their kinds
00:18:44.62\00:18:47.76
is that God created MANY KINDS!
00:18:47.96\00:18:51.09
Um-hmm. And so it's
a creationist context
00:18:51.29\00:18:55.53
but it isn't talking
about them not changing.
00:18:55.73\00:18:58.03
Very good. So then what
happens to the dog at creation?
00:18:58.93\00:19:03.04
Well there must have been
some creature that God created
00:19:03.24\00:19:06.24
and became the
ancestor to the dog.
00:19:06.54\00:19:10.85
Probably it was a dog.
We don't know anything about
00:19:11.01\00:19:13.92
what... the colors
and all that kind of thing
00:19:14.12\00:19:19.25
in the Garden of
Eden. And there was one.
00:19:19.45\00:19:20.79
But there was, yes.
There was something there
00:19:20.99\00:19:23.49
that had
descendants that we call dogs.
00:19:23.69\00:19:26.63
Whether it was like our
domestic dog or the wolf
00:19:27.03\00:19:29.96
or the Japanese raccoon dog
or the South American maned wolf
00:19:30.17\00:19:33.50
or the South
African cape hunting dog.
00:19:33.70\00:19:35.94
You know, I don't
know what it looked like.
00:19:36.34\00:19:38.34
But it had... In
its genetic information
00:19:38.54\00:19:43.24
it had the potential
to produce varieties.
00:19:43.45\00:19:47.02
Hmm. And that fits
also with the Biblical text.
00:19:47.22\00:19:50.55
If you look in
Genesis 8 I think it is
00:19:50.75\00:19:54.16
as the animals
were coming off the ark
00:19:57.69\00:20:00.43
God is telling Noah to
get the animals off the ark
00:20:01.56\00:20:04.50
or let them off the ark
00:20:04.70\00:20:06.03
verse 17...
Genesis 8 verse 17...
00:20:06.20\00:20:09.77
I can read that. All right!
00:20:09.97\00:20:11.34
It says: "Bring forth with thee
00:20:11.54\00:20:14.01
every living
thing that is with thee
00:20:14.21\00:20:16.24
of all flesh both
of fowl and of cattle
00:20:16.44\00:20:19.68
and every creeping thing
that creepeth upon the earth
00:20:19.88\00:20:24.92
that they may breed
abundantly in the earth
00:20:25.12\00:20:28.89
and be fruitful and
multiply upon the earth. "
00:20:29.09\00:20:31.59
All right. You see
these creatures are confined
00:20:31.79\00:20:35.26
to just the ark at that moment.
00:20:35.46\00:20:37.40
All right... you've
got a whole world to fill.
00:20:37.60\00:20:41.54
That's right. All
right... how are those creatures
00:20:42.50\00:20:45.51
going to spread
out across the world?
00:20:45.71\00:20:48.41
They're going to reproduce.
They're going to reproduce
00:20:49.31\00:20:51.45
and disperse, but as they do
00:20:51.65\00:20:54.22
they're going to
encounter different habitats.
00:20:54.58\00:20:57.12
Um-hmm. They're going to go
thru some places that are wet,
00:20:57.32\00:20:59.52
some that are dry, some that
are hot, some that are cold,
00:20:59.72\00:21:01.99
some that are forests, some
that are plains or whatever.
00:21:02.19\00:21:04.93
So how are they going to
survive in all those things
00:21:05.33\00:21:07.46
if they can't adapt
to different habitats?
00:21:07.66\00:21:10.67
Um-hmm. So in this
command to fill the earth
00:21:10.87\00:21:15.60
and to be fruitful and multiply
00:21:15.80\00:21:17.44
in that command
God is acknowledging
00:21:17.64\00:21:21.91
perhaps even
gifting the creatures
00:21:22.11\00:21:24.88
with the ability to
adapt to local habitats.
00:21:25.08\00:21:27.92
Um-hmm. So they spread out and
those that end up in a forest
00:21:28.12\00:21:32.05
are going to look a little
different from those that end up
00:21:32.45\00:21:35.46
in a desert or in a savanna.
00:21:35.66\00:21:38.69
Those in a cold climate
are going to have to have
00:21:38.89\00:21:40.93
a heavier coat than
those in a warm climate.
00:21:41.13\00:21:43.40
Yes. And so there's going to
be difference in the proportions
00:21:43.60\00:21:46.17
and the colors and the sizes
and robustness of the body.
00:21:46.37\00:21:50.71
They're going to be what I
have called "locally adapted. "
00:21:50.91\00:21:54.84
Um-hmm. Now, the mechanism
00:21:55.04\00:21:57.85
by which they may
adapt to local conditions
00:21:58.05\00:22:01.08
Darwin might have had a
point there. I think he did!
00:22:01.92\00:22:04.39
Darwin's description
of how animals adapt to
00:22:04.59\00:22:09.36
the environment had
a lot of truth in it.
00:22:09.56\00:22:12.79
He was right
about a lot of things.
00:22:12.99\00:22:14.93
Now the exact details he
may not have been so accurate.
00:22:15.13\00:22:19.57
But the idea that animals vary
& those that are better adapted
00:22:19.77\00:22:24.01
survive better is
almost inevitable logically.
00:22:24.21\00:22:27.21
Hmm. Darwin's problem was that
he took this local adaptation
00:22:27.41\00:22:32.11
idea and extrapolated it.
00:22:32.31\00:22:34.65
Now extrapolation means pushing
it beyond where the evidence
00:22:34.85\00:22:38.49
is to where the evidence isn't.
00:22:38.69\00:22:40.86
He extrapolated it
beyond where it should have been
00:22:41.02\00:22:44.63
and made more of it
than he should have.
00:22:45.03\00:22:47.13
But the core idea about
local adaptation and change
00:22:47.33\00:22:50.77
I think is a useful idea
and fits with this Biblical
00:22:50.97\00:22:56.14
description that
there have been changes
00:22:56.34\00:22:58.41
that the animals have to
disperse across the world.
00:22:58.61\00:23:00.71
And so there's part of
that evolutionary theory
00:23:01.21\00:23:05.58
that creationists can
incorporate into their ideas.
00:23:05.78\00:23:08.92
Hmm. But evolution itself
00:23:09.12\00:23:11.25
is a philosophical
thing. It doesn't work anyway
00:23:11.45\00:23:16.26
but certainly it doesn't
fit... Because of the conditions
00:23:16.46\00:23:19.83
because of sin in the
world and we have the ark
00:23:20.03\00:23:23.60
with all the animals coming
off there's room for change.
00:23:23.80\00:23:26.20
Oh yes! In fact, it's necessary.
00:23:26.40\00:23:28.50
Yes. It's a necessity.
00:23:28.70\00:23:30.44
Yeah, it's a
different world before the flood
00:23:30.64\00:23:32.17
because the Bible
said it had never rained.
00:23:32.37\00:23:35.51
Yes! The weather
had always been perfect.
00:23:35.71\00:23:38.41
It had been a
wonderful environment.
00:23:38.61\00:23:39.95
There was no need for adapting.
00:23:40.12\00:23:41.85
Not only is the world today
different to the world before
00:23:42.05\00:23:44.79
the flood but the
world today has differences
00:23:44.99\00:23:47.42
all over. You know, lots
of differences on the surface
00:23:47.62\00:23:49.96
today. Yes. So we've got
different weather patterns.
00:23:50.16\00:23:54.26
Oh yes! Different
mountains and deserts.
00:23:54.46\00:23:57.43
Different plant communities.
You know you were talking
00:23:57.63\00:24:00.50
in Romans that
the creation groans.
00:24:00.70\00:24:03.54
It does, doesn't
it? We are susceptible
00:24:03.94\00:24:06.94
to all sorts of
things: floods, earthquakes.
00:24:07.14\00:24:10.05
Actually the earth is
really in an event that's
00:24:10.25\00:24:15.38
changing all the time.
00:24:15.82\00:24:17.29
You talk about earthquakes.
You know I come from earthquake
00:24:17.49\00:24:19.85
country. Yes! Just
had one not too long ago
00:24:20.06\00:24:23.63
that shook things up.
00:24:23.83\00:24:25.39
So that's kind of... I
hadn't really thought about
00:24:25.59\00:24:27.90
the creaking and groaning
of the earth from earthquakes.
00:24:28.10\00:24:31.83
Well during the
flood the Bible says that
00:24:32.60\00:24:34.84
the foundations of the deep
broke open and the water went...
00:24:35.04\00:24:38.91
During the flood there was a
lot of groaning, wasn't there?
00:24:39.11\00:24:40.68
There was a lot of continental
shifting in that event.
00:24:40.88\00:24:43.11
So tell us about the source
of fixity that's from Plato.
00:24:43.51\00:24:49.48
Well, you know,
in the early church
00:24:49.68\00:24:55.52
there was an inheritance -
a philosophical inheritance -
00:24:56.73\00:25:01.43
from the school of Platonism
and particularly Neoplatonism.
00:25:01.63\00:25:05.90
But Plato had this
idea that there are types
00:25:06.10\00:25:10.67
of fixed types and that
these are in the area of
00:25:10.97\00:25:16.91
perfection. But
in the physical realm
00:25:17.11\00:25:20.35
you see imperfect
copies of the ideal type.
00:25:20.55\00:25:26.05
Um-hmm. And so the idea
that the ideal doesn't change
00:25:26.25\00:25:29.99
but you can get different mani-
festations that are imperfect.
00:25:30.19\00:25:33.56
But there's a fixed ideal.
00:25:33.76\00:25:36.63
And that developed
into common knowledge.
00:25:36.83\00:25:42.37
That was common sense
00:25:42.57\00:25:44.37
and everybody
knew that was true.
00:25:44.77\00:25:46.71
So when the early church fathers
about the time of Augustine
00:25:47.58\00:25:51.11
I think back a few
centuries after Christ
00:25:51.31\00:25:54.58
they wanted to make
their religion, their theology
00:25:55.88\00:25:59.85
more intuitive to the public.
00:26:00.06\00:26:03.36
And so it was just
kind of a natural thing
00:26:04.26\00:26:07.73
to say: "Well everybody
agrees with these fixed
00:26:07.93\00:26:10.53
types that Plato talked about.
00:26:10.73\00:26:12.87
Well let's apply
that to the creation
00:26:13.07\00:26:15.57
so that animals are fixed. "
00:26:15.77\00:26:17.37
And that idea was brought in.
00:26:17.77\00:26:20.68
What everybody knew was
incorporated into the church
00:26:20.88\00:26:23.88
and then later everybody
discovered it wasn't true.
00:26:25.35\00:26:29.82
Um-hmm. And the church
was left with this idea that
00:26:30.02\00:26:32.75
they had borrowed from the world
00:26:32.95\00:26:35.06
and the world left them
holding the bag so to speak
00:26:35.26\00:26:38.93
and embarrassed.
00:26:39.43\00:26:41.63
There's a lesson there:
the same problem occurred
00:26:41.83\00:26:46.67
with the geocentric universe.
00:26:46.87\00:26:48.67
The geocentric universe comes
from Ptolemy, the ancient Greek.
00:26:49.07\00:26:53.21
And of course
everybody knew it was true
00:26:53.61\00:26:55.34
so let's put it
into the religion.
00:26:55.54\00:26:59.28
And then when science says: "No,
that's not quite the way it is"
00:26:59.68\00:27:02.92
here we are embarrassed.
00:27:03.12\00:27:05.22
And I think today
the lesson is here for us
00:27:05.42\00:27:08.52
if we will learn: what
everybody believes to be true
00:27:08.72\00:27:12.56
may not be true. Um-hmm.
00:27:12.76\00:27:15.60
And Christians struggle
with the idea of evolution.
00:27:15.80\00:27:18.53
You say: "Well everybody
knows evolution is true.
00:27:18.93\00:27:21.04
Let's bring it
into our theology. "
00:27:21.24\00:27:22.57
And churches are doing
that and they are going to be
00:27:22.67\00:27:24.34
embarrassed when
the scientific community
00:27:24.54\00:27:27.74
comes out with what
they already suspect
00:27:27.94\00:27:30.25
and that is that
there is no mechanism
00:27:30.45\00:27:33.38
for evolution that
anybody can identify.
00:27:33.58\00:27:36.89
I believe in
time that will happen.
00:27:37.09\00:27:39.25
I think it's coming.
You know, my son James is
00:27:39.45\00:27:42.22
in primary school and he
was doing an extra curriculum
00:27:42.42\00:27:45.53
activity that he was
allowed to do of astronomy.
00:27:45.73\00:27:49.90
They take him into the big
town once a week to do this.
00:27:50.10\00:27:54.04
And one night the man
who was teaching astronomy
00:27:54.24\00:27:59.34
to these primary school children
00:27:59.54\00:28:01.24
was talking about how
the Christians believed that
00:28:01.44\00:28:06.18
the earth was flat.
Isn't that ridiculous?
00:28:06.38\00:28:08.98
And then they
found out that it wasn't.
00:28:09.98\00:28:12.72
You know, we found
out it wasn't. And so
00:28:12.92\00:28:14.32
of course
Christians were embarrassed
00:28:14.52\00:28:18.03
by being shown up to be wrong
you know is the implication.
00:28:18.23\00:28:20.90
And I was up the back as a
parent. I said: "Excuse me! "
00:28:21.26\00:28:24.17
I said: "The Bible actually
said back in the Old Testament
00:28:25.03\00:28:27.70
times that the earth
was round; it was a circle.
00:28:27.90\00:28:30.44
And so it was only
some parts of Christianity
00:28:30.84\00:28:35.11
that believed it was flat.
It wasn't actually Biblical. "
00:28:35.31\00:28:38.18
I expressed that and he goes:
00:28:38.58\00:28:41.02
"Oh... really? "
00:28:41.22\00:28:43.72
Well the idea of a flat
earth and Christianity has
00:28:44.29\00:28:47.19
an interesting history
which I am not an authority on.
00:28:47.39\00:28:49.96
But there is a book
by a man named Russell -
00:28:50.16\00:28:52.73
um-hmm - called
Inventing the Flat Earth.
00:28:52.93\00:28:55.46
And according to this
author it seems that the idea
00:28:56.20\00:29:01.07
that Christians
believed in a flat earth
00:29:01.27\00:29:03.10
arose in the 1800's - hmm
- by authors who were trying
00:29:03.30\00:29:08.28
to embarrass Christianity.
00:29:08.48\00:29:09.81
They made it up basically.
00:29:09.94\00:29:13.25
According to this guy
nobody in Christian history
00:29:13.65\00:29:16.42
ever talked that
the earth was flat
00:29:16.62\00:29:18.62
with maybe one or
two minor exceptions.
00:29:18.82\00:29:21.66
But the church NEVER
taught the earth was flat.
00:29:21.86\00:29:24.99
That was an idea they were
accused of by Andrew Dixon White
00:29:25.19\00:29:29.26
and a couple other
authors in the 1800's
00:29:29.46\00:29:32.37
in the context of Darwin's
attempt to overthrow theism
00:29:32.67\00:29:37.61
and introduce
materialism into thinking.
00:29:37.77\00:29:41.24
So the book by Russell
Inventing the Flat Earth
00:29:41.44\00:29:44.45
should put that to rest.
I like the wording "then. "
00:29:44.65\00:29:48.08
We are good at inventing
things, aren't we? Yes.
00:29:48.28\00:29:49.98
It's amazing how these things
come out to try and embarrass
00:29:50.49\00:29:53.56
Christians and so it's
the same sort of thing as
00:29:53.76\00:29:57.59
basically what
you're talking about.
00:29:57.79\00:29:59.13
Be careful what you
believe or what you listen to.
00:29:59.16\00:30:01.03
That's right. It's easy to
accept what everybody knows
00:30:01.23\00:30:04.43
without being critical about it.
00:30:04.63\00:30:06.87
But history teaches us
that we can't always believe it.
00:30:07.07\00:30:11.37
I've been in that
situation... I had to speak up.
00:30:11.57\00:30:13.94
Yes, well good on you.
00:30:14.44\00:30:16.95
We are good at listening
to what everyone else says,
00:30:17.15\00:30:19.05
too, but you know I find
that before I became a Christian
00:30:19.25\00:30:22.48
my concept was what I
was taught through evolution
00:30:22.88\00:30:26.25
at my state school. Sure.
00:30:26.45\00:30:28.16
But when I discovered the
Word of God and as I read it
00:30:28.36\00:30:30.99
more and more - and I
would encourage you to do that -
00:30:31.19\00:30:33.09
you understand that all the
things that are taking place
00:30:33.29\00:30:38.10
for us now are to reveal to
us a great plan of salvation
00:30:38.30\00:30:42.04
because this
world is really doomed.
00:30:42.24\00:30:44.14
And so we have the opportunity
00:30:44.34\00:30:47.08
to go back and find
out who our Creator was.
00:30:47.28\00:30:50.05
And the Bible is very clear.
We've been talking about that
00:30:50.25\00:30:52.58
in Genesis chapters 1,
2, and 3 etc. and we can see
00:30:52.78\00:30:57.69
that there is a God who's
trying to reach out to us.
00:30:57.89\00:31:00.29
The information is
there right before us,
00:31:00.49\00:31:03.26
and I believe in 1958
when the DNA was discovered
00:31:03.46\00:31:07.63
that we now have a
greater knowledge of the process
00:31:07.83\00:31:11.70
that God has for
reproducing each one of us.
00:31:11.90\00:31:15.20
We don't look the same.
00:31:15.40\00:31:16.74
We have two arm and two ears
and a nose and a mouth and eyes
00:31:17.14\00:31:20.54
but you know, that development
is something that God has put.
00:31:20.74\00:31:25.25
The procreation of mankind
through a mother and a father:
00:31:25.45\00:31:30.22
that is something
that's very unique.
00:31:30.42\00:31:32.95
And it's common to all
species, but God has done that.
00:31:33.15\00:31:35.76
And as you were saying
it's not fixed. It can change.
00:31:35.96\00:31:40.06
It's necessary that it change.
Otherwise we'd be extinct.
00:31:40.26\00:31:42.76
Umm. I know now... I
was reading that a number
00:31:42.96\00:31:46.10
of species that every year
are disappearing off the planet.
00:31:46.30\00:31:49.44
You know, but that's not to
do with the fact that they can't
00:31:49.64\00:31:52.91
change... it's because we
are destroying the environment
00:31:53.11\00:31:56.11
in which they
survive. Yes. I think habitat
00:31:56.31\00:32:00.32
destruction is probably
the most significant cause
00:32:00.52\00:32:04.12
of extinction. As
we clear the forests,
00:32:04.32\00:32:07.46
as we build...
Just building a freeway
00:32:07.66\00:32:11.49
or an impassable barrier
through some kind of habitat
00:32:11.69\00:32:17.13
like whether it's a
desert or a forest or whatever
00:32:17.33\00:32:19.63
means the animals,
especially the little animals
00:32:19.83\00:32:23.10
on one side and the
ones on the other side
00:32:23.30\00:32:24.97
cannot interbreed any more.
00:32:25.17\00:32:27.14
Hmm. And if one side
has a small population
00:32:27.34\00:32:33.05
small populations
can go extinct with a
00:32:33.25\00:32:36.65
relatively small
catastrophic event of some sort.
00:32:36.85\00:32:40.39
A storm or
whatever can wipe them out.
00:32:40.59\00:32:42.19
And so you divide
things into small parcels
00:32:42.59\00:32:46.13
you're going to lose
diversity automatically.
00:32:46.33\00:32:48.93
Hmm! It's inevitable. Hmm.
00:32:49.13\00:32:50.67
So now that doesn't
mean that we as humans
00:32:50.87\00:32:53.20
cannot and should not develop
00:32:53.40\00:32:57.51
you know living
spaces for people to live.
00:32:57.67\00:33:00.61
We have to do that...
it's our responsibility.
00:33:00.81\00:33:03.35
But as we do it
we should I think
00:33:03.55\00:33:06.85
take into consideration
how we affect other species,
00:33:07.05\00:33:10.85
how we can nurture them
00:33:11.25\00:33:14.72
and kind of provide
environmental space for them.
00:33:14.92\00:33:18.56
I think that's our responsibil-
ity too as stewards of creation.
00:33:18.76\00:33:22.33
And with it you were talking
before about the adapting
00:33:22.53\00:33:26.00
to the environmental changes
00:33:26.20\00:33:27.94
when we as human
beings come along
00:33:28.70\00:33:30.97
and change a
habitat in a very quick time
00:33:31.17\00:33:36.24
there is no
opportunity for adaptation.
00:33:36.44\00:33:38.15
It takes a few generations
for that change to occur. Yes.
00:33:38.35\00:33:41.65
And so we are wiping them
out because the particular
00:33:41.85\00:33:46.22
species that may be
there that's not somewhere else
00:33:46.42\00:33:49.22
they have got no opportunity
- right - to prepare for what is
00:33:49.42\00:33:54.46
happening. It just
happens and wipes them out.
00:33:54.66\00:33:56.63
And why do we care?
00:33:56.83\00:33:58.70
Because in Genesis 1 God said
00:33:59.10\00:34:03.51
"I will make man
and woman in My image
00:34:03.71\00:34:07.38
and give them
dominion... " Dominion?
00:34:07.58\00:34:10.08
What does dominion mean?
00:34:10.28\00:34:11.61
A dominion: like a kingdom.
00:34:11.91\00:34:13.58
"I'm putting them in charge
00:34:13.78\00:34:16.45
and they're
going to rule over. "
00:34:16.65\00:34:19.65
Now... In His place.
00:34:19.85\00:34:21.96
Yes, in His place.
To rule over the kingdom
00:34:22.16\00:34:27.20
has an implied responsibility
and an accountability.
00:34:27.60\00:34:31.87
'Cause the Bible always
talks about the servant master.
00:34:32.07\00:34:35.10
That was a big thing for Jesus.
00:34:35.30\00:34:37.27
Yes! And so if you're
going to be the master,
00:34:37.47\00:34:39.17
you have to be
prepared to serve.
00:34:39.37\00:34:41.01
That's right. To take care of.
00:34:41.21\00:34:42.74
And when you think of a kingdom
00:34:43.14\00:34:47.25
you have good kings
or bad kings. Um-hmm.
00:34:47.45\00:34:50.42
Now what is a good king
who's in charge of the world?
00:34:50.62\00:34:54.56
He's going to be responsible;
he's going to take care of it
00:34:54.76\00:34:56.93
and provide the greatest
good for the greatest number.
00:34:57.13\00:35:00.83
And so that's why we
as creationists care about
00:35:01.23\00:35:05.43
the creation: because
we care about the Creator -
00:35:05.63\00:35:07.87
um-hmm - and He has
given us this responsibility.
00:35:08.07\00:35:11.47
And the bad king
is going to abuse it.
00:35:11.67\00:35:13.88
That's right. If we're
abusing it then we're bad kings.
00:35:14.08\00:35:16.18
That's right. And
I like the concept
00:35:16.38\00:35:18.48
that God gave that to
mankind. Yes! It's a gift.
00:35:18.68\00:35:22.08
It's a gift, yeah, and it's not
something that He gives to any
00:35:22.28\00:35:25.45
of the other species
by the way. That's right.
00:35:25.65\00:35:27.16
And so we have that responsi-
bility and we should care for
00:35:27.36\00:35:30.03
the environment and the
creatures that God has put
00:35:30.23\00:35:32.39
on this world.
There's a little book which I
00:35:32.59\00:35:34.73
think encapsulates
that. It's called Entrusted.
00:35:34.93\00:35:37.83
Um-hmm. Entrusted: it's a book
on environmental stewardship
00:35:38.03\00:35:40.97
written by some friends of mine.
00:35:41.37\00:35:43.61
Hmm. Now... I want
to ask you a question.
00:35:43.81\00:35:46.44
What can we
actually say a species is?
00:35:48.24\00:35:52.18
Good question. And is
it the same as a kind?
00:35:52.38\00:35:55.98
All right!
That's a good question.
00:35:56.18\00:35:57.85
Thank you for asking that.
00:35:58.05\00:36:00.09
A species: when we talk
about species we are usually
00:36:00.52\00:36:03.63
using a definition that's called
a biological species concept.
00:36:03.83\00:36:08.56
Um-hmm. And that really
means a group of individuals
00:36:08.76\00:36:13.40
or populations which
are able to interbreed.
00:36:13.60\00:36:16.40
Um-hmm. And so if there
is interbreeding possible
00:36:16.60\00:36:19.84
that implies they
are the same species.
00:36:20.04\00:36:22.74
Like a lion and tiger are
not because they... Well...
00:36:22.94\00:36:26.82
they can breed but they're...
Can't normally interbreed.
00:36:27.02\00:36:29.98
The offspring is not
able - is sterile - to breed.
00:36:30.19\00:36:34.99
Yes, but the fact that
they can produce offspring's
00:36:35.19\00:36:39.06
suggests that they
could have a common ancestor.
00:36:39.26\00:36:43.47
Um-hmm. And when you combine
that with their distribution
00:36:43.67\00:36:47.14
well you see the lion
is a savanna-adapted cat
00:36:47.70\00:36:53.54
and the tiger is
a forest-adapted cat
00:36:53.88\00:36:57.08
in Asia and Africa respectively
00:36:57.28\00:37:01.08
although there are
some lions in India as well.
00:37:01.28\00:37:03.05
But that's kind of a boundary
between the lion and the tiger
00:37:03.45\00:37:06.42
there in India.
00:37:06.62\00:37:07.96
And then you could conclude
based on the hybridization
00:37:08.99\00:37:12.53
and on their distribution and
on their general similarities
00:37:12.73\00:37:15.36
that this could be the result
of an animal coming off the ark,
00:37:15.56\00:37:19.53
an ancestor coming off the ark,
00:37:19.73\00:37:21.24
spreading across the world,
00:37:21.44\00:37:23.74
and in Africa it
encountered a particular habitat
00:37:23.94\00:37:27.74
where a particular
color of coat and a particular
00:37:27.94\00:37:31.78
style of living
in groups and so on
00:37:31.98\00:37:34.75
was adaptive and
useful whereas the tiger
00:37:34.95\00:37:38.65
moving into the forest
he needed a different color
00:37:38.85\00:37:41.39
and he could hunt individually
because the prey animals
00:37:41.59\00:37:46.03
are not moving in herds
in the forest like they do
00:37:46.23\00:37:48.80
on the savanna.
And so that is I think
00:37:49.00\00:37:53.87
a good illustration of what
a creationist view might be.
00:37:54.07\00:37:57.34
That coming from the
ark you have this dispersal
00:37:58.07\00:38:00.88
and local
adaptations here and there
00:38:01.04\00:38:03.45
so that you get
groups. So if they're not
00:38:03.65\00:38:07.22
naturally interbreeding
they're different species...
00:38:07.42\00:38:10.09
even if they came from the
same kind that was created.
00:38:10.29\00:38:14.66
Um-hmm.
00:38:14.86\00:38:16.29
And people have asked that ques-
tion: "Is there a correlation
00:38:16.49\00:38:19.96
between a Genesis kind
00:38:20.16\00:38:22.26
and some kind of
taxonomic category? "
00:38:22.46\00:38:25.00
Um-hmm. The answer is no,
there isn't a direct correlation
00:38:25.20\00:38:29.04
because for one
thing taxonomic categories
00:38:29.24\00:38:33.11
are very subjective.
One famous scientist said
00:38:33.31\00:38:37.71
a taxonomic family
is a group of organisms
00:38:37.91\00:38:41.25
that forms a group
that a competent taxonomist
00:38:41.45\00:38:44.65
recognizes as a family.
00:38:44.85\00:38:46.89
Well... there you
have subjectivity.
00:38:47.09\00:38:49.52
And there are
differences of opinion.
00:38:49.72\00:38:52.23
However, it turns
out that in many cases
00:38:52.43\00:38:56.30
estimating the relationship
between the taxonomic category
00:38:57.70\00:39:01.97
and the Genesis kind
comes out to approximately
00:39:02.17\00:39:05.87
the level of a taxonomic family.
00:39:06.07\00:39:08.14
And so we have the dog family
00:39:08.84\00:39:10.88
which scatters and
covers the whole world.
00:39:11.08\00:39:14.02
Local adapted species.
00:39:14.22\00:39:16.18
The bear family. You have
bears through much of the world.
00:39:16.38\00:39:19.89
There are no bears
native to Australia but
00:39:20.09\00:39:22.09
there are bears throughout...
Actually the number of bear
00:39:22.29\00:39:25.29
species is not very many
but they do spread out. Um-hmm.
00:39:25.49\00:39:28.50
Thank you for admitting that
Australia doesn't have bears.
00:39:28.70\00:39:31.40
The koala is not a bear.
00:39:31.80\00:39:33.37
Camels... there's
camels in So. America.
00:39:33.57\00:39:38.14
Well call them llamas
and alpacas and vicuņas.
00:39:38.34\00:39:41.14
And then there's camels in Asia.
00:39:41.54\00:39:43.35
And there are several examples.
Deer... another example...
00:39:44.68\00:39:47.55
We have those! are a widespread
kind of group that forms
00:39:47.75\00:39:53.29
and biologists call it
a single family. Um-hmm.
00:39:53.49\00:39:56.59
And so that's a useful
approximation but it's not
00:39:56.79\00:40:00.10
a fixed rule. Umm.
00:40:00.30\00:40:02.16
So explain the term taxonomic.
00:40:03.00\00:40:07.40
I know taxidermists
actually stuff dead animals.
00:40:07.80\00:40:11.41
That's taxidermy.
Yeah. This is taxonomy.
00:40:11.61\00:40:14.54
Taxonomy is a system of naming.
00:40:14.94\00:40:17.21
Um-hmm. OK. So in
the taxonomic system
00:40:17.41\00:40:19.85
you have a species that
is... For example, humans are
00:40:20.05\00:40:23.55
are homo sapiens.
Genus, species we call them.
00:40:23.75\00:40:27.79
The smallest category is
a species but we always use
00:40:27.99\00:40:30.29
two names for the
species. Homo sapiens.
00:40:30.49\00:40:32.56
The genus homo is man.
00:40:32.76\00:40:35.06
And then if you take the
dog: you have canis familiaris
00:40:35.26\00:40:38.53
and then the
family name is canidae.
00:40:38.73\00:40:41.34
Um-hmm. Canidae and then there's
felidae which is the cats.
00:40:41.54\00:40:45.14
Those two are grouped together
because they're both carnivores
00:40:45.34\00:40:47.78
and so there's an
order called carnivora.
00:40:47.98\00:40:50.51
Hmm. And then carnivores
and then the kangaroos
00:40:50.71\00:40:53.82
and koalas...
they're the marsupials.
00:40:54.02\00:40:56.12
They are grouped together.
Mammalia... the mammals.
00:40:56.32\00:40:59.09
Um-hmm. So you have
species, genus, family,
00:40:59.29\00:41:02.99
order, class - Mammalia -
00:41:03.19\00:41:06.09
phylum - Chordata -
and kingdom - Animalia.
00:41:06.29\00:41:09.33
And so who came up with
all those complicated things?
00:41:09.53\00:41:13.37
So when we talk about category
we're talking about what level
00:41:13.57\00:41:16.07
they are. It's interesting
that there is a scientist
00:41:16.27\00:41:19.74
who believes in
intelligent design
00:41:19.94\00:41:21.88
but he's not what we
would call a creationist.
00:41:22.08\00:41:24.35
He's willing to
accept common ancestry.
00:41:24.55\00:41:26.45
Um-hmm. But he has
done a lot of study on this
00:41:26.65\00:41:29.48
and he has written a
book called Darwin Devolves.
00:41:29.68\00:41:34.76
Published in 2019.
00:41:34.96\00:41:36.42
So it's a new book?
It's a new book - um-hmm -
00:41:36.62\00:41:38.43
and he has concluded
based on his evidence...
00:41:38.63\00:41:41.66
And remember: he is not
opposed to common ancestry.
00:41:41.86\00:41:45.20
But he is trying to distinguish
what kinds of changes
00:41:46.40\00:41:50.91
can come about
through what you might call
00:41:51.31\00:41:54.01
undirected mechanisms
such as what Darwin proposed.
00:41:54.21\00:41:57.28
Hmm. And from his
independent study -
00:41:57.48\00:41:59.71
independent of what
we're talking about here -
00:41:59.91\00:42:01.45
his conclusion is
that Darwin's mechanism
00:42:01.65\00:42:06.05
probably applies
at changes up to about
00:42:06.25\00:42:09.59
the level of a taxonomic family.
00:42:09.79\00:42:13.13
OK. And so we have convergence
there that the same thing
00:42:13.33\00:42:16.80
that creationists have
been saying for a long time
00:42:17.00\00:42:19.03
and here is a person
that you might even call
00:42:19.23\00:42:21.84
a theistic evolutionist
00:42:22.04\00:42:23.81
who has come to
a similar category
00:42:24.01\00:42:26.88
saying: "In order to
cause the kind of changes
00:42:27.08\00:42:32.41
that distinguish
families and orders
00:42:32.61\00:42:35.55
you need divine action. "
00:42:35.75\00:42:38.45
Um-hmm. Whether
that divine action
00:42:38.65\00:42:40.86
is direct in the
form of separate creation
00:42:41.06\00:42:43.66
or guiding some kind
of evolutionary process
00:42:43.86\00:42:46.09
he doesn't worry about that.
00:42:46.29\00:42:48.70
He might take one position
and I would probably take
00:42:49.10\00:42:52.50
a different one. But
it's just really intriguing
00:42:52.70\00:42:56.87
to me that he comes from a dif-
ferent philosophical background
00:42:57.07\00:43:00.54
and still comes out with
an idea that's very similar
00:43:00.74\00:43:03.35
to what I personally
hold. There had to be some form
00:43:03.55\00:43:07.25
of interference in
the fact that somebody
00:43:07.45\00:43:11.29
had to... Yes...
somebody had to actually
00:43:11.49\00:43:14.26
get their hands
dirty so to speak - yes!
00:43:14.46\00:43:16.39
and create specific things
because there's no other way
00:43:16.59\00:43:19.89
it could have happened.
Yes! Darwin and micro evolution
00:43:20.10\00:43:24.03
can explain how you can
get long legs in one dog
00:43:24.27\00:43:27.27
and short legs in another dog.
00:43:27.47\00:43:29.07
Or a different beak
from a different bird. Yes!
00:43:29.27\00:43:31.51
But he cannot explain how
you got dogs in the first place.
00:43:31.71\00:43:34.91
Hmm. Hmm. That's
true. That's very true.
00:43:35.31\00:43:38.75
And so we... I say
myself... when I read the Bible
00:43:39.81\00:43:43.52
to me the evidence is
quite clear in the Word of God.
00:43:43.72\00:43:47.06
It's black and white, but some
people may not appreciate that.
00:43:47.26\00:43:50.63
But like I said, when
you read it and you begin to
00:43:50.83\00:43:52.96
get involved in what's happening
00:43:53.16\00:43:56.67
you can understand
all these changes...
00:43:56.87\00:43:58.53
and even after the
flood. Much of what we
00:43:58.73\00:44:03.00
"know" as a society
00:44:03.20\00:44:06.07
much of what we
"know" about evolution
00:44:06.27\00:44:09.78
has been given
to us by authorities
00:44:10.81\00:44:16.05
who are what we
would call materialists.
00:44:16.25\00:44:20.29
Um-hmm. That is they believe
00:44:20.49\00:44:22.32
there is nothing in the universe
other than material, matter,
00:44:22.52\00:44:26.03
and energy. Just
particles... no God, no Spirit,
00:44:26.23\00:44:30.33
nothing like that. And
so what we're hearing is...
00:44:30.53\00:44:35.84
Everything we hear in the public
media - almost everything -
00:44:37.01\00:44:39.87
has been pressed through
the filter of materialism.
00:44:40.08\00:44:43.81
Um-hmm. And so we're
immersed in this philosophical
00:44:44.01\00:44:47.25
milieu that is blind.
In fact, not just blind
00:44:47.45\00:44:53.22
but intentionally excludes
any kind of divine activity.
00:44:53.42\00:44:57.59
Hmm. But... Why do
you think that happens?
00:44:57.79\00:45:01.66
Why do you
think that's going on?
00:45:01.86\00:45:04.00
I think it came from the
French enlightenment because
00:45:04.20\00:45:06.40
the Christian
church abused its power.
00:45:06.60\00:45:12.31
Um-hmm. Instead
of inviting people
00:45:12.51\00:45:17.08
to respond to the love of
Christ they imposed a force
00:45:17.28\00:45:22.62
and penalty on
those who dissented.
00:45:22.82\00:45:25.49
Are we going back to
good kings and bad kings?
00:45:25.69\00:45:27.82
It's related to that, isn't it?
00:45:28.02\00:45:29.82
And I think the intellectuals
said: "We are done with this!
00:45:30.23\00:45:33.63
If this is what
Christianity is, let me out! "
00:45:33.83\00:45:36.30
And I think most of us
would say the same thing.
00:45:36.70\00:45:39.33
That's not what we want.
00:45:39.53\00:45:41.07
That's not really what
Christianity... That's not what
00:45:41.27\00:45:43.71
Christ has invited us.
No. Christ has invited:
00:45:43.91\00:45:46.57
"I have come to give you life
00:45:46.78\00:45:50.01
more abundantly. " That's right.
00:45:50.21\00:45:52.48
Yeah, so I don't
really blame these people for
00:45:52.68\00:45:55.72
kind of wanting
something different.
00:45:55.92\00:45:57.75
But that has led to
an antagonism toward...
00:45:58.15\00:46:01.59
toward Christianity that
I think is unfair really.
00:46:01.79\00:46:06.56
I think that it's time to take
another look at Christianity.
00:46:07.23\00:46:11.07
So materialism is
turning people away from God.
00:46:11.27\00:46:14.07
Well yes. Materialism
is people who are already
00:46:14.27\00:46:17.61
turned away from God and
trying to... trying to make
00:46:17.77\00:46:21.61
sense of the
world. But the point is
00:46:21.81\00:46:23.78
all this scientific
stuff about random mutations
00:46:23.98\00:46:27.22
for example. Well we "know"
that mutations are random -
00:46:27.42\00:46:31.22
until we have discovered
that that's not the case.
00:46:32.25\00:46:34.82
That's very funny.
00:46:36.36\00:46:37.69
And we're now
finding that the environment
00:46:38.19\00:46:41.70
and the genome interact
00:46:42.60\00:46:45.23
so that changes in species
may not be random at all.
00:46:45.43\00:46:49.80
Now where did we get the idea
that they have to be random?
00:46:50.81\00:46:55.08
Not from evidence but
from philosophy of materialism.
00:46:55.48\00:46:58.98
That's right. And so we
have to be really careful
00:46:59.18\00:47:01.48
about what we
accept from what we hear.
00:47:01.68\00:47:07.26
If that source is
biased, what they report
00:47:07.72\00:47:12.46
may not be accurate.
And science is discovering
00:47:12.66\00:47:17.30
that there's no way
this stuff works that way.
00:47:17.70\00:47:21.27
Little by little science is
eat- ing away at neo-Darwinian
00:47:21.47\00:47:26.68
theory. What I'm
finding from what you've said
00:47:26.88\00:47:30.05
and what others
have said recently
00:47:30.25\00:47:32.38
evolution is unscientific.
00:47:33.68\00:47:36.38
Evolution is a philosophy.
Yes. It's a world view.
00:47:36.79\00:47:39.65
And yet we're told it's science.
00:47:39.85\00:47:41.32
Well... we are. That
is because science has
00:47:41.52\00:47:44.56
been hijacked by materialists.
00:47:44.76\00:47:46.26
And so they say:
"But is it science?
00:47:47.10\00:47:50.57
If you put God in,
it's not science any more. "
00:47:50.77\00:47:52.73
Well, I don't think
that's... I don't believe that.
00:47:53.60\00:47:56.04
I don't think we
have to accept that.
00:47:56.24\00:47:57.87
If you look at the...
Where did science come from?
00:47:58.07\00:48:00.28
It came from Western Europe.
00:48:01.18\00:48:03.14
It came from Christians.
If you look at the fathers
00:48:03.65\00:48:06.08
of science you
have Isaac Newton.
00:48:06.28\00:48:07.75
Isaac Newton was
a believer in God.
00:48:07.95\00:48:10.59
Um-hmm. That's right. Does
that mean he's not a scientist?
00:48:10.79\00:48:13.59
What about Kepler?
Kepler was an astronomer.
00:48:14.32\00:48:18.19
He was a devout Christian.
00:48:18.39\00:48:19.73
He said: "See what I'm doing has
brought honor to the Creator. "
00:48:20.06\00:48:25.00
Um-hmm. Does that mean
that he's not a scientist?
00:48:25.20\00:48:28.80
Then there's
Pascal... a devout scientist.
00:48:29.20\00:48:34.34
And you could go on. John
Ray, the father of biology
00:48:34.54\00:48:38.31
wrote a book called The
Wisdom of God Manifested
00:48:38.51\00:48:41.55
in the Works of Creation.
00:48:41.75\00:48:43.22
And these guys are not
seeing a hostility between
00:48:43.42\00:48:47.36
God and science.
Um-hmm. They are using
00:48:47.56\00:48:50.39
their science to try to
understand what God has done.
00:48:50.59\00:48:54.96
And I think that's TRUE science.
00:48:55.80\00:48:57.93
When you look at the Word of God
and then you do your experiments
00:48:59.27\00:49:02.44
according to scientific
ways - sure - principles,
00:49:02.64\00:49:06.04
yeah principles - and then
you come out and you're able
00:49:06.24\00:49:09.21
to understand what
the Bible says better.
00:49:09.41\00:49:10.95
And the Bible actually explains
00:49:11.15\00:49:12.48
a lot of the
things that you're seeing.
00:49:12.61\00:49:14.12
You say: "I wonder
how this happened? "
00:49:14.32\00:49:16.15
And you say: "Oh! OK,
there's a Creator who caused
00:49:16.35\00:49:20.16
this to begin
and who maintains it
00:49:20.36\00:49:22.32
and these are
the rules He's using.
00:49:22.52\00:49:24.03
Ah! It's making sense. "
00:49:24.23\00:49:25.79
Do you ever think
why didn't science arise
00:49:26.46\00:49:30.27
in a place where
people were animists?
00:49:30.47\00:49:34.00
Well if, in
fact, animism is true
00:49:35.14\00:49:38.47
you have different gods
who are constantly fighting.
00:49:38.87\00:49:43.28
Um-hmm. You couldn't be sure
what's going to happen tomorrow
00:49:43.48\00:49:46.98
will be the same
as what happened today
00:49:47.18\00:49:48.85
because the gods
might have different moods.
00:49:49.05\00:49:50.69
And some of the gods lie -
00:49:50.89\00:49:52.79
yes - so you don't know which
one's telling you the truth.
00:49:52.99\00:49:54.82
That's right. And so if
you cannot count on nature
00:49:55.02\00:49:58.43
being consistent
you can't do science.
00:49:58.63\00:50:02.10
Hmm. The reason
we can do science
00:50:02.30\00:50:04.77
is because God maintains nature
00:50:04.97\00:50:09.00
in a consistent way.
00:50:09.20\00:50:11.34
So without God
there would be no science.
00:50:12.34\00:50:16.01
Hmm... that's a good thought.
00:50:16.21\00:50:18.11
And as we know
God is a God of order.
00:50:18.31\00:50:20.72
Everything you see
in the Bible is done
00:50:20.92\00:50:23.22
for a reason. It's done
well and it's done thoroughly.
00:50:23.42\00:50:28.69
Yes. God never
leaves anything out.
00:50:28.89\00:50:31.63
Yes, we are blessed to
know and to have a Creator
00:50:31.93\00:50:37.90
who's consistent,
responsible, and reliable
00:50:38.80\00:50:42.97
and who has
created an environment
00:50:43.37\00:50:47.38
where we can have confidence
00:50:47.88\00:50:51.25
that what we plan to do
00:50:51.65\00:50:54.35
we can do because we
understand how things work.
00:50:55.75\00:50:59.95
Umm. So that when I
swing a hammer at a nail
00:51:00.16\00:51:04.89
I expect the same result
today that I got yesterday.
00:51:06.06\00:51:10.10
You hit your
thumb? Very often yes!
00:51:10.30\00:51:13.54
That at least helps
me forget my headache.
00:51:14.37\00:51:16.24
That's true! I see
when I read the Bible
00:51:18.67\00:51:21.88
we have a God of order.
There is nothing that happens
00:51:22.08\00:51:24.81
by chance. Everything
has its place, it's time.
00:51:25.01\00:51:28.55
And it's very meaningful for me
00:51:28.95\00:51:31.62
to know that this shows that we
have a God who loves and cares
00:51:31.82\00:51:34.89
for His creation. Yeah...
I think we can push that idea
00:51:35.09\00:51:38.49
beyond what we
should. I wouldn't say that
00:51:38.69\00:51:41.50
nothing happens by chance,
that God ordered everything.
00:51:41.70\00:51:44.73
If we get into the
question of automobile accidents
00:51:44.93\00:51:47.57
for example. I don't think God
goes around causing automobile
00:51:47.77\00:51:50.51
accidents. Yes.
But He has established
00:51:50.71\00:51:53.51
the rules, and when we
have an automobile accident
00:51:53.71\00:51:57.45
we can pretty well
decide what it was that happened
00:51:57.65\00:52:01.62
that caused that accident.
It wasn't that God did something
00:52:01.82\00:52:04.32
wrong, it's the driver
that did something wrong.
00:52:04.52\00:52:06.29
Or the road,
debris, or something.
00:52:06.49\00:52:09.92
It's human
activity so there is some
00:52:10.13\00:52:12.19
opportunity for freedom there.
00:52:12.39\00:52:14.26
Um-hmm. I mean,
you look at biology.
00:52:14.46\00:52:16.46
That's your science
area but there's physics
00:52:16.67\00:52:19.53
involved in a lot
of things. Oh, yeah.
00:52:19.73\00:52:21.97
And there are laws of physics
that if you drop something
00:52:22.17\00:52:26.17
it's going to fall.
That's right. Even a feather is
00:52:26.37\00:52:28.94
going to fall. We
have a consistent God.
00:52:29.14\00:52:31.51
Yeah... there is gravity.
00:52:31.71\00:52:33.31
If you hit something, it's going
to buckle or it's going to hurt.
00:52:34.32\00:52:37.12
Well we've been
talking with Dr. James Gibson
00:52:37.52\00:52:40.19
and we're just going
to take a break right now.
00:52:40.59\00:52:42.29
We're going to put
up our address roll.
00:52:42.49\00:52:44.16
If you feel that you would like
to comment or ask questions,
00:52:44.36\00:52:47.90
you can contact
us at this address:
00:52:48.10\00:52:50.47
Thank you for all you do
to help us light the world
00:53:45.39\00:53:47.89
with the glory of God's truth.
00:53:48.09\00:53:49.92
I hope you've written
that down because we really do
00:53:52.09\00:53:54.90
want to hear from you. We
enjoy hearing from viewers
00:53:55.10\00:53:57.77
and listeners. Now we're
talking with Dr. James Gibson
00:53:57.97\00:54:01.40
from the Geoscience
Research Institute -
00:54:01.80\00:54:05.24
that's a bit of a
tongue twister - in Loma Linda
00:54:05.44\00:54:07.48
in California. And
we're just going to put his
00:54:08.34\00:54:11.75
e- mail address on the screen
for you in case you want to
00:54:11.95\00:54:14.72
ask him any questions.
00:54:14.92\00:54:16.28
So llu for Loma
Linda University.edu
00:54:26.03\00:54:30.40
And if people have got
questions they can ask you.
00:54:30.60\00:54:33.84
Of course. There's
something about questions that
00:54:34.04\00:54:37.24
sometimes people
need to understand.
00:54:37.44\00:54:40.08
When you have for
myself for example
00:54:40.48\00:54:43.81
I've studied this for a long
time and I've come to understand
00:54:44.01\00:54:47.52
that I really
don't know very much.
00:54:47.72\00:54:49.55
I think we all know that.
00:54:50.62\00:54:52.05
And so what that means is
if someone asks me a question
00:54:52.25\00:54:56.02
that I don't know the
answer it doesn't worry me.
00:54:56.22\00:54:59.03
Hmm. If you're insecure, you can
get upset if somebody asks you
00:54:59.23\00:55:02.70
a question that
you can't answer.
00:55:02.90\00:55:04.70
It's OK. There's lots of
questions I can't answer.
00:55:05.10\00:55:07.34
I already know that.
00:55:07.54\00:55:08.87
You found that
out? Oh, yeah. So...
00:55:08.90\00:55:10.41
so the point is: don't
be afraid to ask questions
00:55:10.61\00:55:13.68
even if you think
there's maybe no answer.
00:55:13.88\00:55:15.48
It's OK... doesn't matter.
00:55:15.68\00:55:17.01
If you don't know the answer
well you don't know the answer.
00:55:17.05\00:55:18.85
OK... well I'm going
to ask you a question.
00:55:19.05\00:55:20.55
All right. Are there limits
to what we've been talking about
00:55:20.75\00:55:23.35
with changes... the
variations in species?
00:55:23.55\00:55:26.52
The change in species. Well,
00:55:26.72\00:55:28.56
there seem to be some
limits in a certain way.
00:55:28.76\00:55:31.83
If you look at nature, you find
00:55:33.09\00:55:36.67
organisms have different
structural arrangements
00:55:36.87\00:55:40.54
of their organs. We
call those body plans.
00:55:40.74\00:55:44.94
Um-hmm. An example: a human
00:55:45.14\00:55:50.75
and a dog have quite a
bit similar body plans.
00:55:50.95\00:55:55.28
There's two sets of limbs.
00:55:55.48\00:55:57.39
There's a head with
two eyes and two ears
00:55:57.59\00:56:01.09
and so on, and the internal
organs are pretty much arranged
00:56:01.29\00:56:04.13
similar. A back bone with
a nerve coming through it,
00:56:04.33\00:56:05.99
a brain in the head. Um-hmm.
00:56:06.19\00:56:07.76
If you look in the sea,
00:56:07.96\00:56:11.63
you may find some animals
that look quite different.
00:56:11.83\00:56:15.20
You might find for
example a sea anemone.
00:56:15.60\00:56:17.97
A little polyp that's
attached to the bottom.
00:56:18.37\00:56:21.68
It doesn't have any bones;
it doesn't have any brain;
00:56:21.88\00:56:24.35
it doesn't have any
limbs. It has maybe tentacles
00:56:24.55\00:56:27.08
and a sac-like body.
00:56:27.28\00:56:29.98
It's a different body plan.
00:56:30.19\00:56:32.12
Now the differences
between different body plans
00:56:33.15\00:56:36.76
are often the arrangement
of parts but also the parts
00:56:36.96\00:56:40.06
themselves. A sea
anemone doesn't have a kidney
00:56:40.26\00:56:43.00
for example or a
liver or a heart.
00:56:43.20\00:56:45.13
So if you're thinking
in evolutionary terms,
00:56:46.43\00:56:50.21
in order for evolution in a
bit sense - macro evolution -
00:56:50.41\00:56:56.28
in order for that to work
you have to have a mechanism
00:56:56.48\00:56:59.88
to create new organs
00:57:00.08\00:57:02.42
and to re-arrange parts.
00:57:02.62\00:57:05.29
We don't see any
evidence of that.
00:57:05.49\00:57:07.49
It looks like that is
a restriction on change.
00:57:07.69\00:57:11.06
We are limited in
what we can do to just
00:57:11.26\00:57:14.50
modifying what's already there.
00:57:14.70\00:57:16.20
That's a very
important point! Yes... yeah.
00:57:16.40\00:57:18.83
You know, I just think about
what we've been talking about.
00:57:19.03\00:57:22.20
It's been very interesting
and I'm sure the viewers
00:57:22.40\00:57:24.77
have been very interested
in what you have to say.
00:57:24.97\00:57:26.91
Dr. James: thank you
for being on the program.
00:57:27.91\00:57:30.71
My pleasure. You know,
each time we have someone come
00:57:30.91\00:57:33.45
and talk about what God
has done in the Word of God
00:57:33.65\00:57:35.52
I get excited. You
know, what He's revealed
00:57:35.72\00:57:38.09
through the Word of
God. And so at this time
00:57:38.29\00:57:40.69
we'd like to say
thank you for joining us.
00:57:40.89\00:57:42.32
God bless you until
we see you next time.
00:57:42.52\00:57:44.46