Participants:
Series Code: NOW
Program Code: NOW019027A
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00:15 This is 3ABN Now with John & Rosemary Malkiewycz.
00:21 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Now. 00:23 You know, oftentimes when I look forward to a program 00:26 as I'm looking forward to this one - yeah, so am I - 00:29 I think it's going to very interesting. 00:30 And we are very happy to have with us Dr. Leonard Brand. 00:35 He's from the US of A. 00:37 And he's with us here to talk about a subject 00:40 that is very controversial in the world. 00:42 Let me start with this: when I grew up as a child 00:45 and I went to school I went to a state school 00:47 and all the time I was taught about evolution. 00:51 And I guess that's my world view when I first started. 00:54 But something happened in my later life where I discovered 00:57 that there's another side to the story, and that comes 01:00 from the Bible: that God is the Creator. 01:02 And so Dr. Leonard... he's a professor of biology 01:06 and paleontology at Loma Linda University 01:09 where he teaches courses in paleontology, 01:12 vertebrate biology, 01:14 and the philosophy of science. 01:17 Now that's a very large area to be involved with, Leonard. 01:22 So tell us a little bit about yourself in terms of 01:27 what you are actually doing. 01:30 Well my initial degree, my Ph.D. was in evolutionary biology. 01:36 Um-hmm. And then I later 01:39 retrained in geology. And so I've been doing those things. 01:42 And then for the last about four years 01:44 pretty much I've been doing geology and paleontology. 01:47 Hmm. And so I teach classes and do research 01:49 and work with graduate students. 01:51 That is pretty exciting because you are right on the cutting 01:54 edge of discovering things and then sharing them with others. 01:57 Yes. That'd be great! 01:59 But before we go any further, we've got a text. 02:01 I've got a Bible verse and this one is so encouraging. 02:06 Dr. Brand has picked Deuteronomy 31 verse 6 02:10 and I really really like this. This is a really good one. 02:14 "Be strong and of a good courage. 02:17 Fear not nor be afraid of them 02:21 for the Lord thy God, He it is that doth go with thee. 02:26 He will not fail thee nor forsake thee. " 02:30 Isn't that wonderful, encouraging language? 02:34 Why did you actually choose that? 02:36 Well I actually wrote an article for one of our magazines 02:40 called Be Strong and Courageous. 02:42 And if you deal with the subject of creation/evolution 02:47 you're up against pretty much the scientific community. 02:50 Um-hmm. And so it takes some courage. 02:53 Yeah, that's true. But you know the Lord is with you - 02:55 absolutely - because you're teaching the truth. 02:58 Yeah, very good. Well I just thought what some people 03:01 may not know you. You know, you are obviously 03:04 from the United States. Where were you born? 03:07 Where did you go to school? Tell us a little bit about 03:08 yourself and your family. 03:11 Well, I was born in North Dakota. 03:14 Lived in North Dakota, South Dakota, and Kansas 03:16 and then we moved when I was about 12 years old 03:18 to California. My dad got a different job there. 03:23 And so then I went to school. I got a bachelor's degree 03:28 in biology at La Sierra College 03:30 and then a master's in biology at Loma Linda University. 03:33 I went to Cornell University 03:37 and got a Ph.D. in evolutionary biology. 03:40 And ever since then I've been teaching at LLU. 03:47 I have a wife and two children - two grown children - 03:50 and two grandkids. OK. 03:52 So that's lovely. Do they live near you? 03:55 Unfortunately not too close. 03:58 So are you away from home a lot and traveling 04:02 and sharing all your knowledge? A fair amount. 04:06 Yeah. But you wish you weren't. Right. 04:11 What does your wife do? 04:14 Her career has been somewhat varied. 04:17 She started out as a nurse and then more education 04:20 and became a school counselor and then a school psychologist. 04:25 Um-hmm. She has quit working now. OK. 04:28 But previously she has kept herself busy while you have been 04:32 doing your work. Yeah. Very good. 04:35 So where did you grab hold of creation? 04:38 Were you a Christian all your life 04:40 or did you come through a learning process? What happened? 04:45 I was always a Christian although I have to say 04:49 it didn't really take hold until my mid-twenties. 04:51 OK. But somewhere in college I took a class 04:54 that got me interested in the issue of creation 04:56 and I determined I wanted to contribute somehow. 04:59 I had no idea at that time how but... 05:02 I think you've been led very well. You know, when I think 05:06 about creation it's a question every human being asks: 05:09 "Well where did I come from? " 05:11 Yeah. "How did it all happen? " 05:13 So we're going to have an oppor- tunity to talk with you today 05:15 on that. I'm sure we're going to cover 05:17 a large amount of subjects. 05:18 But evolution is something out there right now. 05:21 And if anyone is contrary thinking even of that 05:25 they're not in a very good space, are they, at the moment? 05:29 Yes, it's getting more difficult for evolution than now. 05:33 Hmm. And why is that? 05:35 Well, we'll talk about that. Good! 05:38 Well I want to get in to find what you want to share with us. 05:42 And it's as a Christian that I'd like to ask: "Can evolution 05:44 survive the new biological insights? " 05:47 Obviously there's a whole lot of insights out there 05:49 and this is now going through the biological one. 05:53 Talk us through it a little bit on that. 05:54 OK. The reason for bringing that up is that we're kind of 05:58 in a new day in a sense. 06:02 Evolution is clearly the domi- nant point of view in science. 06:07 And evolutionary biologists 06:11 uniformly believe that there's no other choice. Um-hmm. 06:16 But it's very interesting... there's a growing controversy 06:19 among scientists - among even evolutionary scientists - 06:23 over this issue. And the vast majority 06:28 of evolutionary biologists are firmly committed 06:31 to Darwin's theory. All change... all living things 06:35 have come about by random mutations and natural selection. 06:39 Um-hmm. That's what I learned at school. 06:41 Right... but there's a growing controversy 06:44 with another group of scientists who are not really creationists 06:49 but they are finding that Darwin's theory doesn't work. 06:53 Hmm. And that's what I like to talk about. 06:55 Hmm, and you're saying they're not really creationists? 06:59 No, they're not creationists. 07:01 But they're not necessarily Christians... 07:03 or they're Christians who do believe in creation? 07:06 For a long time there's been an argument between creationists 07:09 and evolutionists... but right now I'm not really 07:11 talking about that. I'm talking about what's happening within 07:14 mainline science. Yes! Hmm. 07:16 That those who don't believe in creation are also finding 07:20 they don't believe in evolution so much? 07:23 They find Darwin's theory doesn't work. Hmm! 07:25 I hear a lot of the word intelligent design, you know? 07:29 And there is evidence of intelligent design 07:31 and when we look closely into different aspects - 07:34 of all the different aspects of the human body 07:38 and the genes and all that... 07:39 I know you're going to talk about them. 07:41 But there is a great controversy within science, is that right? 07:44 Yes there is. And these scientists I'm talking about 07:48 don't necessarily agree with intelligent design. 07:52 But there are other things they're finding 07:54 OK - like? that we don't see as intelligent design. 07:59 So what sort of things would they be? 08:02 Well, let me give a little background first. 08:06 What did Darwin know? OK, he worked and wrote his book 08:11 in the mid 1800's. Um-hmm. 08:13 OK. And think back then: what did we know about life? 08:17 There was... nothing whatever was known about the cell. 08:21 What is life? They thought the cell was a simple little thing. 08:25 This was decades before the beginning of the field 08:29 of genetics or evolutionary... sorry... 08:32 molecular biology. Um-hmm. Nothing really was known. 08:36 They didn't know about vitamins and minerals. No. 08:39 They didn't know about germs. So... 08:42 then in the 1930's and 1940's 08:45 there was developed the synthesis... 08:51 the new synthesis of evolution. 08:55 The... Anyway, they put together 09:02 genetics, paleontology, and all these things 09:07 for the new synthesis of evolution. 09:09 OK, which is actually the theory of evolution as it is 09:13 understood now. Um-hmm. 09:16 But still, this was in the 30's and 40's. Molecular biology 09:20 didn't really get started in a strong way until about 1950. 09:24 And so we still didn't know many things that are very important. 09:28 And so evolution didn't develop in an era of knowledge 09:33 about life. Hmm... that's right. 09:35 That's why you mentioned the "theory" of evolution. 09:38 And we talk about it. When I learned it at school 09:41 it was the theory of evolution. Yeah. So you know 09:44 as knowledge is becoming more prominently available to us 09:47 we're seeing that: "Hey, if Darwin knew about these things, 09:50 would he have said what he said? " 09:52 Yeah... probably not. And also Darwin wasn't really a scientist 09:56 was he? Well, I don't know if we could say that 10:00 because academic fields were not that well developed 10:04 at that point. Yeah, he was educated in science. 10:08 And medicine wasn't even that far advanced in those days 10:11 either. So he knew enough in general. 10:16 Hmm. 10:17 So the new evidence in molecular biology. Just talk us thru that. 10:21 And this new evidence I'm talking about today is 10:25 especially coming from molecular biology because 10:28 that's the study of the cell. 10:29 And any evolution - any change - is going to happen at the 10:33 cellular level within the cell. With an individual cell. Um-hmm. 10:36 And Darwin knew nothing about that 10:38 and his colleagues knew nothing about that. 10:40 And so what is being found... and the new insights 10:43 that I'm talking about are coming especially from 10:46 new developments like the ability to analyze DNA 10:49 in detail. Um-hmm. And so this is 10:54 revealing a number of important things. 10:56 And that's not long ago because the DNA 10:59 I think was discovered in 1958. Was that about when it was? 11:02 Around that time? About that time, yeah. 11:04 So we can see we're on a steep learning curve, aren't we? 11:08 when we're talking about molecular biology and science. 11:11 In the last 5-10 years the ability to analyze 11:16 DNA has just "taken off. " Um-hmm. Yes. 11:20 About I don't know 10, 15 years ago maybe more 11:23 I was talking to a group of teachers, biology teachers. 11:28 And one of them asked me: "Why are evolutionists 11:31 so much more confident of their theory now? 11:34 Is there new evidence they've found? " 11:36 And I can answer that better now than I could at that time, 11:39 but that's really what we'll talk about. All right. 11:41 OK. What is the new evidence that's being found? 11:43 Yeah, because they had to find a code, didn't they? 11:46 Yeah, that was the beginning but that still was not enough. 11:51 The new insights are very important. 11:54 One of the things that's being studied a lot 11:57 in recent years is the question of junk DNA. OK. 12:03 OK, what is junk DNA? I know what junk is 12:06 and I know what DNA is. Yeah. 12:07 DNA is of course the information that determines 12:12 what proteins will be made and what kind of organisms 12:14 will be made, etc. 12:17 And we have a... our genes can be put in a couple 12:22 of categories. One is called sometimes silent DNA. 12:26 Um-hmm. It doesn't seem to do anything. 12:29 The other category is coding DNA that defines 12:32 how to make protein... 12:34 recipes for making specific proteins. 12:38 And in the percentage of this coding DNA 12:44 or the silent DNA is very dif- ferent in different organisms. 12:47 OK. The silent DNA, since it doesn't seem to do anything, 12:51 has been called junk DNA for years. 12:53 Just garbage left over from the evolution process 12:57 that doesn't do anything. Ah! 12:58 So one question to consider is 13:02 humans seem to have 98% of their DNA 13:06 in that category. 13:07 You're kidding! Junk DNA. That's so much! 13:09 So would you be willing to have 98% of your DNA 13:12 removed? No! I didn't think so. 13:14 Well so for a long time there has been this very firm concept 13:21 of junk DNA. But interesting: thru the years... 13:25 the last maybe 10, 15 years or more 13:28 articles would come out periodi- cally that raised some questions 13:31 about junk DNA. I remember in one very prominent journal 13:37 there was an article that said: "Is it junk DNA 13:43 that makes us human? " So they're finding that this 13:45 what was thought to be junk was actually defining 13:48 some important characteristics about humans. 13:50 Ah! And gradually this went on until 13:53 in 2012 a very major research project 14:00 was finished called the ENCODE Project. 14:03 That was a government- funded project with 14:05 hundreds of microbiologists analyzing different bits of 14:09 our DNA... human DNA. Yes. 14:12 And they find that all this silent DNA was doing something. 14:17 It's not just junk... it's doing something. 14:21 And after that research was finished 14:25 you could say that junk DNA really is not a useful concept 14:30 any more. Hmm! Most or all of our DNA is doing something... 14:34 something important. So there's not 98% of us 14:37 that's junk. There's still this certain category of 14:42 DNA that is 98% for us. That's not junk any more! 14:45 But it's not junk, no. Hmm. 14:46 That's really the stuff that tells other genes 14:50 like the protein for anything tells them 14:52 when to do their thing and how much and whatever. 14:55 Then that's what determines whether our DNA is gonna 15:00 make us into a human, a chimpanzee, or a mouse. 15:04 That's what's really important. 15:06 And so... and this is a bit of a problem 15:10 for evolution because that junk DNA was thought to be 15:14 a category of stuff that's not useful any more 15:19 but it can mutate and make new genes to do new things. 15:23 Well, that doesn't seem to be available any more. 15:26 And like you said, it was left over from evolutionary 15:29 process - yes - but instead it's actually 15:33 very important. Yes. Even now it's very important 15:37 for every individual who lives. That's right. Hmm. 15:40 That's extremely interesting 15:42 because I had heard of junk DNA 15:45 and wondered what it was. 15:47 Yeah. But it's not junk. What about other animals? 15:52 Do they have a large amount or a small amount of junk DNA? 15:56 Do you know? It's interesting actually. 15:57 One of the bits of evidence that begin to build up 16:00 is that somebody looked at a very large number of 16:03 scientific papers on junk DNA. 16:05 And they found that the simplest things like 16:09 little bacteria, other things, 16:12 have a very small amount of junk DNA. 16:15 And as animals get more complex 16:17 you go to the simple invertebrates and on up 16:20 the more complex they are the higher percentage of the DNA 16:24 is junk until you get up... There's this curve you can draw. 16:28 You get up to humans and now we're 98% junk DNA. 16:31 So this looks like junk DNA is important in defining 16:36 how complex things are. Yes! 16:38 And that really is the case now we understand. 16:40 Now instead of saying the more involved you are the more 16:44 junk you have left over from the previous - yeah - 16:49 form of life. That doesn't seem to be the case. 16:54 Well, the more complex you are the more junk. 16:58 Yeah. But it's not because it's junk. 17:01 It's because that's what makes you complex. 17:04 Yes. That's very interesting. That's fantastic! 17:06 You know, I think you've come through a period of time 17:10 where it wasn't taught and I'm saying 17:13 you've been doing your work for a number of years. 17:16 You've seen a great change, haven't you? 17:18 You must be pretty excited 17:20 with all this information that's now being discovered 17:24 if I can use that word. Yes. I mean, what is it doing 17:27 for you? What is it strengthening your thought 17:30 of an intelligent designer - a God designer - 17:33 or is it following down the lines of evolution? 17:37 No, evolution is in trouble really. Yeah. 17:40 The more we learn the more we realize how complex we are. 17:45 The closer we delve into the... I guess that we've never 17:50 seen before we're seeing it now we can see evidence of it. 17:54 We understand now that you don't get another species 17:57 that's better than the last through the DNA 17:59 because the DNA doesn't have that capacity to do that, 18:02 has it? To pass on that information? Well 18:04 the real issue is the Darwinian theory that all change must come 18:09 by random mutation. 18:11 That's because if mutations occur 18:14 because they're useful then how did that happen? 18:18 Somebody must know what's needed. Yes! 18:21 The Darwinian process - the evolution process - 18:25 requires that everything that changes 18:27 must start with random mutations. Random in the sense 18:31 that the mutation process does not know what would be 18:33 good for the animal. It's random 18:36 because there's no Creator, there's no Designer. 18:40 And then natural selection is the only thing that can decide 18:42 which one of those changes is going to survive. 18:45 But we know from the DNA that that doesn't happen - 18:49 it's not possible to happen - because the DNA determines 18:57 The DNA can't get more complex. 18:59 The genes... sorry... can't get more complex. 19:02 They have to retro... Well, they could. 19:04 The theory is that they do... they DO get more complex. 19:07 The question is: do they really? Yes. 19:09 And of course in Darwinian theory 19:12 all changes then must not only start with random changes 19:16 but the changes has to come by a gradual accumulation 19:20 of very small changes. Um-hmm. 19:22 But that comes to another problem 19:25 and that is: per the Darwinian theory 19:29 any new gene has to have an evolutionary history 19:34 of gradual changes in that gene to make a new gene. Right. 19:39 But now with the ability to analyze DNA so carefully 19:43 they find that there are things called orphan genes. 19:46 Um-hmm. Genes which just appear 19:49 in some organisms with no evolutionary history. 19:51 OK. And this is a severe problem because... 19:55 especially 'cause there's a lot of these, 19:57 thousands of these. 10% to 20% of genes 20:00 are orphan genes... they don't have an evolutionary history. 20:05 And to give you an example: honeybees have a set of genes 20:08 that make them able to make honey and other things 20:12 about the honeybees. 20:14 OK... those are all orphan genes. 20:16 There is no evolutionary history of those genes. 20:19 It's like somebody put them there 20:22 because they were needed... which I think is what happened, 20:24 of course. Um-hmm; yes. And all these orphan genes... 20:28 we have many... we have hundreds of orphan genes 20:30 that you won't find in chim- panzees or any other organism. 20:33 You won't find an evolutionary trail 20:35 as to how we got those... they just appeared in humans. 20:39 And so this is a problem for Darwin's theory. 20:43 It's a severe problem. And to be human you have to have those 20:46 orphan genes? Yeah. Take them out and you're done. 20:50 Yeah. But I was thinking, too, with the evolutionary change 20:55 if you have to have that history 20:57 wouldn't you need more than one organism 21:02 to have the same random changes as another organism 21:06 for them to be able to... function... to get to a point 21:11 where they have a function that is necessary 21:14 and then they can breed and start a new organism? 21:18 Well... that's a complex story. But you think of honeybees. 21:23 Others don't have to have the genes for making honey. 21:26 Right. Just the honeybees have those. 21:29 And so in that case you wouldn't have... 21:32 you wouldn't have that gene in other organisms necessarily. 21:35 Now the important genes that simply make us function 21:38 then what you're saying would have to be true. 21:40 They'd have to be in various organisms. 21:42 Hmm. So if they're random who's to say another organism's 21:46 going to have that same random change? 21:50 Well, that... the theory can handle that 21:54 because one organism gets change and this is carried on to 21:58 other organisms, so, yeah, you could handle that. 22:00 But orphan genes are a problem. 22:02 Um-hmm. I've never heard of them. That's really cool. 22:05 And then there's another category that's 22:08 well it's been studied maybe since the 1980's 22:11 but really it's come to be prominent in recent years. 22:14 That's something called epigenetics. Um-hmm. 22:17 Um-hmm. You may have heard of that. Yes! 22:20 In the Bible there's a text that says 22:24 the sins of the father are carried to the third and fourth 22:26 generation. I always wondered what that's all about. Yes. 22:29 Now we know: DNA is not enough. 22:35 DNA has a lot of information but it's like a hard drive 22:40 in your computer. It's full of information 22:42 but a hard drive by itself can do absolutely nothing. 22:44 That's right. It has to have a management system 22:47 to tell it what to do with that information. 22:49 Well now we've realized we were probably very naive before 22:52 but now we realize that there is also those management systems 22:57 in our genetics. Epigenetics 23:01 means above or outside of the DNA. 23:04 So there are processes - management processes - 23:08 outside of the DNA that control how the DNA will be used. 23:12 OK. And it puts little tags on the DNA 23:14 to turn genes on or off 23:17 or to adjust how much they work. 23:20 And that's epigenetics. That's a very important subject. 23:23 To have an understanding of that is beneficial for the human race 23:26 isn't it? Yes. If we're going to have children, 23:29 we'd better live carefully and live right 23:32 because it's going to affect our children through 23:34 the epigenetic process. Hmm. Thankfully that we can 23:39 do something about the epi- genetics by changing lifestyle. 23:43 That's right. It can affect future generations. 23:46 And that can turn on and off certain genes, can't it? Right. 23:50 So if we change our lifestyle to something that's good 23:53 we will be able to turn off some of the bad genes... 23:58 At least in the next second or third generation. 24:01 But if we actually change our lifestyle to worse 24:06 than what we were doing before then we're going to be 24:09 causing a huge liability to our children. 24:12 Yeah. 24:13 And so... OK, epigenetics. Why is this a problem for evolution? 24:17 Well, it's for a good reason. 24:19 Because it's now known that organisms, the DNA process, 24:25 the cellular processes, 24:28 are influenced by the environ- ment - um-hmm - to cause 24:32 to initiate these epigenetic changes 24:35 which are beneficial. They can be inherited you know. 24:41 And OK... so if 24:44 and they can be carried on to at least a few generations 24:47 maybe more. And so if something... 24:49 if a change happens because it's beneficial, 24:53 then it looks like somebody's monkeying with the system. 24:57 There's a genetic foresight that knows what is needed. 25:00 OK. That can't be in Darwinian theory. 25:03 Um-hmm. That's a severe problem for Darwin's theory. 25:06 And yet epigenetics seems to be showing that that's the case. 25:10 Umm. Does it mean with genetics, you know, 25:14 you hear that people have had a genetic... they've been born 25:18 with some sort of genetic problem. 25:21 Like their parents have got this gene that is some random thing 25:27 that when they both get together, have a child 25:31 and that child has got the random gene from both sides 25:33 and they end up with a problem. 25:36 With epigenetics, could that help that situation 25:40 where the parents can do some- thing to turn off their genes? 25:44 I don't think so. That's unrealistic as far as I know. 25:48 Yeah. I was just wondering. Yeah. 25:49 And so epigenetics is a problem 25:54 for Darwin's theory. But it's very important. 25:57 Yes. And I'm amazed. You know, you mentioned 1980. 26:01 So all the time we're getting more and more information. 26:06 The Bible says that we are "wonderfully & fearfully made. " 26:11 It's true, isn't it? As you discover more and more 26:14 you can see that there's the handiwork of Someone 26:18 who knows what He's doing. Yeah. And the Bible also says 26:21 at the end of time knowledge will increase. 26:24 Yes, that's right. And even this scientific knowledge 26:28 just about genes and DNA is amazing what they're finding 26:32 out and I wonder what is just around the corner. 26:35 Yeah, undoubtedly there's more. Another category 26:39 which is not quite as new but it fits in here: 26:43 that is the question of irreducible complexity. 26:46 If you... to illustrate that 26:49 if you have part of a car 26:52 but you don't have the engine will it work? 26:55 No. No, it has to be all there before it will work. 26:58 That's right. And there are structures in living organisms 27:02 which seem to be like that. In fact, obviously that are 27:04 like that. The structure has to be all 27:09 complete before it will work. 27:13 And so if you're going to evolve things a little step at a time 27:18 how can that be? Umm! And many evolutionists will deny 27:22 that this is a problem but they really don't have 27:26 good answers for this issue of irreducible complexity. 27:30 That's like a bombardier beetle. 27:33 Yeah, how do you get the different parts of this system 27:36 there? Just one part at a time is not going to work. 27:39 Yeah. And if you get them both together without being in 27:42 separate chambers in that little creature 27:45 it will blow itself apart. Right. 27:48 There has to be something set up from the very beginning 27:50 that these two chemicals are there 27:54 separated and that at a specific time the animal can trigger them 27:58 to ignite together. Otherwise the animal would not exist. 28:03 And which part is going to develop first? 28:06 And I read recently about an organism 28:08 that has a type of chemical that it uses in some way 28:12 which is actually the same thing as jet fuel. 28:17 Um-hmm. It's extremely dangerous - 28:19 yes - but it has a way of dealing with this. 28:21 And so the system all had to be there. 28:24 I suppose it's a bit like the eye, too. 28:26 I think of all the reproductive system, you know. 28:29 It all has to be there or not. 28:32 Well, that's a complex system 28:35 and scientists can probably define a way 28:40 you could do that a little bit at a time and change it 28:42 a little bit and make it sound good. 28:44 But there are a lot of specific structures 28:47 that can't be that simply explained. 28:51 It has to be there or not. 28:52 And I've talked about all these things, and there's... 28:56 there's a group of scientists that are sometimes referred to 29:00 as the new evolutionists. 29:02 OK. So that kind of helps to bring this together 29:05 and see how this is working. 29:08 And I mentioned that the vast majority 29:12 of what you might call main- stream evolutionary biologists 29:16 maintain that Darwin's theory is the way everything happened. 29:19 OK. That's how we all came about. 29:22 But there's a group of scientists, especially molecular 29:26 biologists, who are realizing that: "No, it's not like that. " 29:31 From all these new discoveries they're realizing... 29:33 Well that's what I'm thinking about! How can you maintain 29:36 the same thought - yeah - when there's so much information 29:39 that in the last 20, 30 years 29:42 that are contrary to what was being said in the past. 29:45 Blow it out of the water. And these people that I'm 29:48 talking about are not creationists. 29:50 I mean there are certainly creationists who understand 29:53 all this stuff, too. But there's this group 29:54 I'm talking about. They're not creationists 29:57 but they realize Darwin's theory doesn't work - 29:59 um-hmm - for some of these reasons and others. 30:02 And some of them are very frank. 30:05 They say it; they write it. They say Darwinian theory 30:07 cannot work. The process of random mutation 30:10 can't do anything of any significance. 30:13 Um-hmm. The cell is far too sophisticated 30:16 for that to be true. 30:18 And so they realize. They may still believe that... 30:20 they've been taught how that evolution answers everything 30:24 and so they may still hold onto this 30:26 but they realize Darwin's theory can't be the way it happened. 30:31 One of them... an eminent microbiologist, he says: 30:35 "How evolution happened is a mystery 30:38 but Darwinism can't be true. " 30:40 "Darwin's theory cannot work. " 30:43 And so this is a very interesting development. 30:48 I wondered: "OK, how do evolutionary scientists 30:51 deal with this? " So I got... I want to know too! 30:54 Yes. I'm only a lay person, 30:56 you know, but I understand 30:58 that because of all the infor- mation that has been gathered 31:01 now you have to make a decision one way or the other. 31:04 It can't be both. Yes. No. 31:07 So I got the latest copies, the latest editions, 31:11 of seven different evolution textbooks 31:15 and I looked for epigenetics, 31:18 or for orphan genes, these things. How they deal with this. 31:21 Um-hmm. None of them mentioned orphan genes 31:24 even though that's a deadly challenge to evolution. 31:27 None of them mentioned orphan genes. 31:30 They ignore them. Yes, absolutely. 31:32 Some of them didn't say anything about epigenetics. 31:35 Others have from a sentence or two 31:38 to a couple of pages on epigenetics 31:41 and they all downplay it and say: "Well it really isn't doing 31:45 anything important. " 31:46 So they just deny that it's of any value. 31:54 So that's the way they're dealing with it: 31:57 they're just not dealing with it. 31:58 Hmm. BUT there's another group of evolution textbooks - 32:03 four books that I found - 32:04 and they are written by this group. 32:08 They're called the new evolutionists, right? 32:11 OK. These people recognize that epigenetics 32:14 and other things are real. They're here to stay. 32:17 And they're trying to use epigenetics to develop 32:19 a new synthesis of evolution - uh-huh - 32:22 called the extended synthesis. 32:24 One that's better than what Darwin had come up with? Yes. 32:27 And there's an interesting episode here. 32:31 Back about 2000- the year 2000- 32:36 I was at a meeting of vertebrate paleontologists. 32:39 And a very eminent vertebrate paleontologist was 32:42 talking about the process of evolution 32:45 and he made a statement. He said "The evolutionary synthesis" - 32:49 the new synthesis that was developed in the 30's and 40's - 32:52 he says: "That has to be re-done. " 32:55 And he said: "This time we're not going to blow it. " 32:57 OK. I wonder what he meant. 33:00 Now I think I'm understanding what he meant 33:03 because that synthesis is the one that doesn't work. 33:07 And so these guys, these four books with more than 4 people, 33:12 but they're trying to develop this new synthesis 33:15 that is built around epigenetics. 33:17 And so you've got two groups here. 33:20 I'm mentioning this conflict that's developing. Um-hmm. 33:22 You might say the traditional evolutionary biologists 33:27 and then this group of new evolutionists. 33:32 The traditional ones don't like this new group 33:36 any more than they like creationists. 33:38 You know, they don't like this idea 33:42 that Darwin's theory doesn't work. 33:44 And... They've built their lives around it. 33:47 Yeah, they have, absolutely. 33:49 A couple years ago there was a big conference 33:51 somewhere in Europe where these 2 groups got together 33:55 and sort of tried to deal with this. 33:58 And people who were there say that the traditional... 34:02 Well no, the new synthesis 34:06 people would present their arguments. 34:09 The others would just say: "Well natural selection 34:11 will take care of that. " And they never really tried to 34:13 answer. They never deal with it. 34:15 They never deal with it really, no. 34:17 I see that when you look at the two groups 34:21 we're a product of what we are taught - 34:23 every one of us - 34:25 so that develops our world view. 34:27 And so to change a world view it takes something quite 34:30 outstanding. So you know for someone to say 34:34 "Look, I've believed in evolution all my life 34:36 and to vary from that is not an easy thing. " 34:40 Because you don't have that vision or a broader vision 34:43 of saying: "Well I'm going to look at all the evidence 34:46 and make a decision. " Because that means you have to 34:49 say: "I've changed my view. " 34:51 Well the new evolutionists... 34:55 they're not becoming creationists. 34:57 And so they're still trying to say that they're evolutionists. 35:00 But the problem is what they're suggesting 35:04 seems to be a problem because epigenetics 35:07 for instance implies genetic foresight. 35:09 That's right. Somebody who designed the system 35:11 knew what needed to work. 35:13 Hmm. And one of the big problems is that neither one of these 35:15 groups have an explanation for how you get 35:19 real new things... novelty. 35:23 Here's this feather. OK, how do you... 35:26 how does evolution invent things like a feather? 35:31 Natural selection doesn't do that. 35:33 Natural selection does absolutely nothing to make 35:35 something new. Natural selection only eliminates 35:39 things that don't work well. Uh-huh. 35:41 To make something you have to do... 35:43 To make something with evolution you have to rely 35:48 on these mutations... these random mutations. 35:51 OK... So will random mutations make this? 35:54 OK. The molecular biologists who are dealing with this 35:58 say: "No there isn't. We don't know how that happened. " 36:01 How do you make... how do you invent a feather? 36:03 How do you invent kidneys? Livers? A whole host of this 36:07 to make something new? 36:09 This is the overwhelming challenge for evolution. 36:14 And the design in a feather is quite amazing. 36:17 It's awesome... absolutely. 36:19 It may look simple but it is absolutely not simple. Yeah. 36:23 So how do you make something new? 36:25 That's what... That's the big thing that none of these 36:28 theories really have an answer for. 36:31 What they are really doing is trying to find 36:33 something other than an intelligent design. 36:37 That's right. They need to come up with 36:39 something that is still 36:42 part of the evolutionary process 36:44 but it comes to it from a different angle. Um-hmm. 36:48 How it began and how we've been able to get to where we are 36:52 because they don't want there to be an Intelligent Designer 36:57 behind everything. Absolutely. That changes their life 37:00 too much. And so there's a whole lot more we can go into 37:06 too, but thinking about that question 37:08 that some teachers asked me years ago: 37:11 Is there new evidence? Why are evolutionary biologists 37:15 more sure of their theory now than before? 37:18 And so all the things we've talked about here 37:21 I thought about that and realized 37:25 it's not because there's new evidence. In fact, the evidence 37:28 is absolutely going the other way. 37:30 It's becoming a serious problem, more and more serious problem 37:34 for evolution... for Darwin's theory. 37:37 They are more confident now because of philosophy. 37:40 OK, if they don't accept evolution what will they do? 37:45 You know, they have to accept a Creator. 37:48 And that simply... if you have a world view 37:50 that denies God and denies a Creator, 37:54 you have no choice. You have to believe 37:56 that all this happened by evolution. 37:58 And so it's philosophy is what's... 38:01 And I have a diagram I sometimes use where I... 38:04 I show how these theories are changing and actually 38:08 macroevolution. I need to introduce that term. 38:12 Macroevolution is the concept of not the little changes 38:16 that could happen within a created type 38:18 but the big changes. Making reptiles and mammals 38:22 and birds and all these things. 38:24 You know, making the big categories. 38:29 Macroevolution doesn't work 38:34 you know with the new theory. 38:37 And so there are those who are realizing the macroevolution 38:42 theory is collapsing. 38:43 It's falling apart with epigenetics and all these 38:46 other things. But they're not ready to move 38:50 across the line to accepting a Creator. 38:53 And so they're saying things like: "It's a mystery 38:55 how this all works. " So they don't know how it works 38:59 but they don't accept a Creator. 39:01 So they're a certain category which the other 39:05 scientists don't like. 39:07 So the ones that are sort of the traditional 39:11 conventional-thinking evolutionists I would call them 39:13 hard core evolutionists. 39:16 They're denying these new... In fact, 39:19 some of these molecular biologists 39:21 point out that evolutionary biologists are denying 39:24 three decades of molecular biology research. 39:27 They're just not accepting it. 39:29 Didn't happen. It's philosophy that's driving 39:33 their concepts, not evidence. 39:35 I like the concept you know there's a designer 39:37 of an internal combustion engine. 39:38 Um-hmm. You know, did that just happen? 39:41 You know, you can say: "Well I deny it. " 39:45 But it didn't JUST happen. It took someone to sit down, 39:48 draw out plans, and then manufacture. You know, 39:51 put it together and then watch it work. 39:55 Now that's an interesting one because it then works. 39:57 And that's why we have the automobile today. 40:00 And so it's like with anything that's been given to us 40:04 now through DNA and epigenetics and all those aspects 40:08 it didn't just happen. Yeah. 40:10 It had to have a reason and it has a purpose. 40:12 The fact that you're sitting here and I'm sitting here 40:14 and I'm looking different - 40:15 similar to my dad but not the same - 40:18 tells you that there is design. 40:20 But there's also the point that you're looking at the... 40:23 the engine being created. 40:27 They can create an engine that takes diesel fuel. 40:30 They can create an engine that has to have gas or petrol. 40:36 They can have a rotary engine. All these different types 40:39 of engines for different reasons. 40:41 BUT someone had to design each one specifically 40:46 for its use. Yeah. There's one thing we need to clarify 40:49 here and that is if we're 40:53 speaking against evolution 40:54 we'll get criticized for 40:56 rejecting just a whole range of 40:58 things that we don't reject. 40:59 Um-hmm. Bacteria do change. 41:02 They mutate; they become more dangerous. Viruses. 41:05 We develop antibiotics because 41:08 you know because these things change. 41:11 And so changes DO occur. 41:13 Yes. We refer to this as microevolution. 41:16 Changes within species or even maybe more than species. 41:20 The small changes that can occur since creation. 41:23 And it's clear that God made organisms to adapt 41:26 to changing conditions. Yes. 41:28 And that's microevolution. That's real. 41:31 We don't argue about that. 41:33 I think I read somewhere about Darwin when he looked at 41:36 finches on an island. They had longer beaks, 41:39 were differing from the different area and environment. 41:44 They lived on different food. 41:45 So I understand 'cause I can see it. BUT 41:48 you're not going to get a bac- teria that evolves genetically 41:53 into a virus. No they don't. 41:56 And you won't get a reptile that evolves into a mammal 42:00 or a bird. That's macroevolution. 42:03 That's what creationists object to: 42:05 what we think is not real. And that's what's being 42:08 challenged by all these new... Particularly the DNA, isn't it? 42:12 That's... Language. The DNA is what defines all of us. 42:16 Yes. And it can't... 42:19 There is no known way 42:21 that DNA can make a reptile into a mammal. 42:24 To do that... OK, so what's really 42:26 the difference between micro- evolution and macroevolution? 42:28 Well microevolution you don't have to evolve anything new. 42:31 You don't have to invent feathers. 42:33 You don't have to make new organs new physiological systems. 42:39 The differences are small. 42:42 But whereas with macroevolution you have to invent feathers. 42:45 You have to invent kidneys; you have to invent 42:47 a lot of other things... totally new things. 42:52 That's right. I just think about the human being. 42:55 He's still here... still the same. 42:58 Yes, there's nothing in between. 43:03 One of my favorite examples of microevolution, 43:07 in fact, even... well... dogs. 43:10 You know, the different kinds of dogs? Um-hmm. 43:13 There are hundreds of different kinds of dogs. 43:16 How did they all come about? 43:18 Well we know the history of a lot of those. 43:20 Probably 200 or more dogs have been bred by humans 43:25 in the last couple of centuries. 43:27 And there are still new ones. 43:28 Yeah, and there's anything from mastiffs to little tiny things 43:32 that I'm sure a wolf would be embarrassed about. 43:36 We can see they all came from wolves 43:39 or wolf-like creatures. 43:41 OK, so how did all this happen? 43:43 It's not evolution because evolution could not happen 43:46 in two centuries. And anyways, the genes 43:50 are the same. It's mostly epigenetics. 43:52 There are some mutations but it's epigenetics. 43:55 And dogs... Since this happened so fast 44:01 all that potential genetics 44:04 had to have been there from the beginning. Yes. 44:06 So I think God made wolves with dogs in mind. 44:10 He knew we would need protection and companionship 44:14 and a lot of things. And there's no... as far as I know 44:16 there is no other animal that is anywhere near that 44:18 much genetic diversity. Hmm. 44:20 So I would suggest 44:21 that the only evolution that happens 44:23 is evolution within the potential that God made... put 44:26 into each creature from the beginning. 44:28 We have a neighbor who has bought a "poodle. " 44:32 It's a combination between a cocker spaniel 44:36 and a poodle. Um-hmm. It's still a dog 44:38 but they've interbred the dogs to start a new breed. 44:42 Yeah. It's still a dog. 44:44 We were talking about there's philosophy and there's science. 44:48 Right? What controls conclusions? 44:51 You've got a thought on that. Tell us about that. 44:54 Well, it depends on what field you're working with 44:58 quite a bit. If you're doing chemistry experiments 45:01 in your laboratory, 45:05 the conclusions you come to probably won't matter 45:08 whether you believe in God or not. 45:10 OK. But if you're studying ancient history, 45:12 how things came to be - 45:13 geological history, biological history - 45:15 we're studying things that happened sometime in the 45:18 distant past or we think happened in the distant past 45:20 and there you've got a real problem because we cannot 45:23 go back and see - hmm - what's happened? 45:25 If we're studying an animal in a laboratory, 45:27 we can observe it and see what's happening 45:30 and you know do experiments over and over. 45:31 If you're studying history, you can't do that. 45:35 You can't go back and so there is a problem. 45:37 And so it's my observation that 45:41 in the study of history - geologic history, biological 45:44 history, fossils - 45:48 your conclusions depend much more on your assumptions, 45:51 on your philosophy. 45:53 On your beliefs. Most people don't understand 45:57 that in those areas assumptions can absolutely 46:01 control what conclusions you are able to reach... 46:04 you are willing to reach. 46:06 Hmm. And so that makes a very big difference 46:08 in the study of history. I like the thought that you said: 46:10 "are willing to reach. " 46:13 And so that's very important. 46:14 Um-hmm. Now you're an author of quite a few books. 46:18 Um-hmm. I thought maybe you could just mention to us? 46:21 I know there's one you just mentioned that's going to be 46:23 released. Tell us a little bit about that book: 46:25 the new one, the new book that you just authored 46:28 and is going to be published. OK. The one that's going to be 46:32 published soon is a book for kids, for children. OK. 46:38 In fact, this morning I was reading through this 46:41 the... what do you? the copy for that... manuscript. 46:45 OK. They're about ready to send it to the press. 46:48 But anyway, for years I've given a talk 46:52 once a month to Junior Sabbath School 46:55 telling stories. These are younger kids? 46:57 Yeah, the 5th, 6th graders. OK. 47:00 And this led to my starting to write the gospel in stories. 47:05 OK. Part of it deals with creation. Part of it is just 47:07 what is the gospel, and how can we explain it to kids? 47:10 With stories. And so that book is going to come out 47:13 I don't know, in the next couple of months I suppose. 47:16 And what's it called? What's the title of it? 47:19 Probably it's going to be called God, Science, Friends 47:23 and then there's a subtitle which I don't remember 47:25 what they've given it? But anyway... 47:27 Then there's another one that just was published. 47:31 It's called Creation? Really? 47:36 And this one I wanted to think how to communicate 47:41 some of this creation/evolution material 47:44 to people who might not read our other material. OK. 47:48 So I came up with... I guess God gave me the idea 47:50 of writing it as a conversation. 47:52 Um-hmm. So this book is a conversation 47:54 between two people: a creationist and one who 47:57 doesn't believe at all. 47:58 And they're talking about these issues, and they... 48:01 They're on a long research trip and they're talking. 48:04 And so it introduces it as a conversation. 48:07 And people who read a copy of this tell me that 48:11 when they started reading they read the whole thing 48:14 in one sitting. So apparently it does get people's attention. 48:17 They didn't want to put the conversation down. 48:19 So which one ends up being accepted? 48:22 No... you've got to read the book! 48:24 Yeah, you've gotta read it. They don't... neither of them 48:27 change their mind but it's a very fruitful conversation. 48:30 They end up friends at the end like they were at the beginning. 48:33 There's a lot of questions that come up. 48:35 Oh yes, yes. Hmm. 48:37 There's several others. The biggest one I've written 48:40 is a book about that thick. 48:42 It's called Faith, Reason, & Earth History. 48:46 It's used as a textbook 48:48 in a lot of Christian schools. 48:50 And you wrote that with Arthur Chadwick? 48:52 The third edition was with Art Chadwick as a co-author. 48:55 But it's Faith, Reason, & Earth History. 48:59 Yes. Where do you get that from? 49:00 What's your source for all that information? 49:03 Well, for 40-some years I've been teaching a class 49:06 on the topic of fossil science and origins. 49:12 OK. It goes through how the science work was safe, 49:15 how they relate. And then applying that to dealing with 49:18 biological questions and geology and all the rest. 49:21 And I... There's wasn't really a textbook to use. 49:23 There are a lot of good books on specific topics 49:25 but I needed something that was more overall 49:28 and I decided I'd have to write it myself. 49:30 So that's where this came from. 49:32 OK. And it's available free? 49:34 Yes. You can buy a hard copy 49:38 but the church's Faith and Science Council 49:41 has funded this, and so you can download 49:44 a digital copy free anywhere in the world. 49:48 And it's not just as a textbook. 49:51 It's very understandable to an educated lay person. 49:53 Hmm. And also this book Creation? Really? 49:57 I understand is now available free as a digital copy... 50:00 digital copy as well. 50:02 You know, on the cover of Creation? Really? 50:05 you have... there's a drawing of Monument Valley. Yes. 50:10 We've been there. And then on your other one 50:13 Faith, Reason, & Earth History 50:16 that's at the Arches National Park. 50:20 Yeah. And we've been there, too. Yes. 50:21 They're fantastic. Wonderful material. 50:24 There are 2 others I mentioned. 50:26 There's one small one with myself and Dick Davidson, 50:30 a theologian, that's called Choose Ye This Day: 50:32 why it matters what you believe about creation. 50:35 Um-hmm. So we found that very fruitful. 50:37 And there's another one about Ellen White called 50:39 A Prophet and Her Critics. 50:41 It's with an Australian physician 50:43 Don McMahon looking at those who criticize Ellen White 50:48 and then some new data that supports her material being 50:52 real and not copies. 50:54 Wow! Very good! I mention one other thing. 50:57 I work at Loma Linda University, and this is the only place 51:00 in the world where a student can get a Ph.D. 51:03 in biology or geology and study under a faculty 51:05 who believe the Bible. 51:06 Hmm! The ONLY place in the world. 51:08 Is that right? We have really wonderful graduate students 51:11 that are coming out. Ah! 51:12 So if anybody wants to do their Ph.D. in... 51:15 in those sorts of sciences - yes - 51:17 consider Loma Linda. That's the place to go? 51:19 You can study under a faculty who believe in the Bible. 51:22 Let me ask you this question: 51:24 can a creationist be a good scientist? 51:28 Absolutely! If we had several hours we could talk about that. 51:32 But some of us have been doing scientific research 51:35 and publishing in professional literature for decades. 51:38 And so the idea that a creation- ist cannot be a good scientist 51:42 is simply demonstrably false. 51:45 Yes. I agree with you because I think that 51:48 understanding the Bible and the Creator of this universe 51:54 and this planet and everything associated with it 51:57 is the best way to get a broad view and understanding. 52:01 That's the way I see it. 52:03 Yeah. It must give you an edge. 52:06 Yeah, it actually does. In understanding. 52:09 We understand how they think; 52:11 we understand how we think; 52:12 and we're always comparing the two. 52:14 And some of these books go through a series 52:16 of those research projects. All right... OK. 52:20 We're talking with Dr. Leonard Brand. 52:22 And I'm sure that what you're hearing I would think 52:26 has encouraged me to understand more closely 52:29 that we are "fearfully and wonderfully made. " 52:32 We just didn't happen by chance. 52:34 And you know, we want to thank you, those who are supporting 52:37 3ABN. And we have an address roll 52:40 that if you want to do this and you want to continue 52:42 to do so that we can make programs like it 52:45 if you have any thoughts or comments 52:47 regarding what is being said here you can write to us 52:52 and contact us at this address: 53:49 Thank you for all you do 53:50 to help us light the world with the glory of God's truth. 53:56 I hope you've written those details down 53:58 but we also have an e-mail address for Dr. Leonard Brand 54:02 if you would like to contact him 54:03 with any questions that you might have 54:05 about what he's been talking on. 54:07 And for his e-mail address, it is 54:17 Now the LLU is Loma Linda University. 54:26 So you can contact him 54:27 and he's happy to answer your questions. 54:29 But I have got a question for you that I want you to answer. 54:33 What about theistic evolution? 54:36 We hear a lot about that from creationists... 54:38 well, they're supposed to be creationists. 54:42 They believe that God is the Creator 54:44 but He created over millions of years 54:48 and that death took place before man was created, etc. 54:53 Well, my finding is that people who believe this 54:57 generally, believe it because 54:58 they think science has proven evolution 55:01 and they have to deal with this. 55:02 Well from what we've talked about here earlier 55:05 it helps to explain that that's becoming less and less true. 55:09 Evolution - Darwin's theory - simply does not work. 55:12 There are prominent scientists who understand that. 55:15 So why would I want to hold up this theory 55:19 that doesn't work? Hmm. I mean, do I have to put 55:21 God is there to somehow help it work? 55:23 Well, it's becoming less and less reason 55:27 to consider theistic evolution. 55:30 And of course, there's a whole lot of other things, too. 55:33 Theologically how can you take theistic evolution if... 55:36 If God created by evolution, then He designed the system 55:43 that has produced death and suffering for eons. 55:46 So, and there's many other theological reasons why 55:49 it really doesn't work. 55:50 Right, 'cause one thing I read from one of their 55:54 sites, some of the scientists who say it, 55:57 is that in the animal kingdom there was death 56:01 before there was a human being 56:03 because otherwise the world would have been overrun by 56:05 animals over all those millions of years 56:08 between them being created and man. 56:12 And so there had to be death among the animals 56:15 but death only came to man when man sinned. 56:19 It doesn't even make sense. 56:20 Well, and a lot of that depends on the belief 56:24 that geology has demonstrated long ages. 56:26 We don't understand that the answer for 56:29 the explanation for radiometric dates. 56:31 But if we had time, there's a whole lot of other things 56:33 in geology - things kind of really being understood 56:36 better now - that don't... that just contradict those 56:39 long ages. Hmm! So there are many new 56:42 understandings of geology and fossils 56:44 that say: "No, that doesn't work. " 56:47 "The long ages probably don't work at all. " 56:50 And so there is less and less reason 56:52 to consider theistic evolution. 56:54 Hmm. So then why is it that people actually don't understand 56:57 radiometric dating? 56:59 It's a complex thing and we don't have a way 57:02 to get... They're dating things from way in the distant past 57:06 so we can't observe it. And so it's hard to come up with 57:09 an answer to that. 57:10 In biology, you've got living things you can study 57:12 all the time. Yes. 57:14 Studying things like radiometric dating 57:15 we can't observe all the processes through the ages. 57:19 And so it's difficult to get the answers we need. 57:23 Hmm... very good. 57:24 I like to think, Dr. Leonard, that we were made. 57:28 We have a purpose and a reason to exist. 57:31 You know, the Bible reveals that to us: 57:33 that this life is not the only life. 57:36 There is a life after this one. 57:37 And we have to understand that God wants us to accept 57:41 what He says as the truth. 57:42 So until we meet you next time 57:44 may God richly bless you 57:45 and keep you well. |
Revised 2023-03-30