This is 3ABN Now with
John & Rosemary Malkiewycz.
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Hello and welcome to 3ABN Now.
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You know, oftentimes when
I look forward to a program
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as I'm looking forward to
this one - yeah, so am I -
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I think it's going
to very interesting.
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And we are very happy to
have with us Dr. Leonard Brand.
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He's from the US of A.
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And he's with us here
to talk about a subject
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that is very
controversial in the world.
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Let me start with this:
when I grew up as a child
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and I went to school
I went to a state school
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and all the time I was
taught about evolution.
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And I guess that's my
world view when I first started.
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But something happened in my
later life where I discovered
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that there's another side
to the story, and that comes
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from the Bible:
that God is the Creator.
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And so Dr. Leonard...
he's a professor of biology
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and paleontology at
Loma Linda University
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where he teaches
courses in paleontology,
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vertebrate biology,
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and the philosophy of science.
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Now that's a very large area
to be involved with, Leonard.
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So tell us a little bit
about yourself in terms of
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what you are actually doing.
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Well my initial degree, my Ph.D.
was in evolutionary biology.
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Um-hmm. And then I later
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retrained in geology. And so
I've been doing those things.
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And then for the
last about four years
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pretty much I've been
doing geology and paleontology.
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Hmm. And so I teach
classes and do research
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and work with graduate students.
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That is pretty exciting because
you are right on the cutting
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edge of discovering things and
then sharing them with others.
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Yes. That'd be great!
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But before we go any
further, we've got a text.
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I've got a Bible verse and
this one is so encouraging.
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Dr. Brand has picked
Deuteronomy 31 verse 6
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and I really really like
this. This is a really good one.
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"Be strong and
of a good courage.
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Fear not nor be afraid of them
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for the Lord thy God, He
it is that doth go with thee.
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He will not fail
thee nor forsake thee. "
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Isn't that
wonderful, encouraging language?
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Why did you
actually choose that?
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Well I actually wrote an
article for one of our magazines
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called Be Strong and Courageous.
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And if you deal with the
subject of creation/evolution
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you're up against pretty
much the scientific community.
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Um-hmm. And so it
takes some courage.
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Yeah, that's true. But you
know the Lord is with you -
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absolutely - because
you're teaching the truth.
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Yeah, very good. Well I
just thought what some people
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may not know you. You
know, you are obviously
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from the United
States. Where were you born?
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Where did you go to school?
Tell us a little bit about
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yourself and your family.
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Well, I was
born in North Dakota.
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Lived in North Dakota,
South Dakota, and Kansas
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and then we moved when
I was about 12 years old
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to California. My dad
got a different job there.
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And so then I went to school.
I got a bachelor's degree
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in biology at La Sierra College
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and then a master's in biology
at Loma Linda University.
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I went to Cornell University
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and got a Ph.D. in
evolutionary biology.
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And ever since then
I've been teaching at LLU.
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I have a wife and two
children - two grown children -
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and two grandkids. OK.
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So that's lovely.
Do they live near you?
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Unfortunately not too close.
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So are you away from
home a lot and traveling
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and sharing all your
knowledge? A fair amount.
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Yeah. But you wish
you weren't. Right.
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What does your wife do?
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Her career has
been somewhat varied.
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She started out as a
nurse and then more education
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and became a school counselor
and then a school psychologist.
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Um-hmm. She has
quit working now. OK.
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But previously she has kept
herself busy while you have been
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doing your
work. Yeah. Very good.
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So where did you
grab hold of creation?
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Were you a
Christian all your life
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or did you come through a
learning process? What happened?
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I was always a
Christian although I have to say
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it didn't really take
hold until my mid-twenties.
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OK. But somewhere in
college I took a class
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that got me interested
in the issue of creation
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and I determined I
wanted to contribute somehow.
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I had no idea at
that time how but...
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I think you've been led very
well. You know, when I think
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about creation it's a
question every human being asks:
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"Well where did I come from? "
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Yeah. "How did it all happen? "
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So we're going to have an oppor-
tunity to talk with you today
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on that. I'm sure
we're going to cover
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a large amount of subjects.
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But evolution is
something out there right now.
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And if anyone is
contrary thinking even of that
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they're not in a very good
space, are they, at the moment?
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Yes, it's getting more difficult
for evolution than now.
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Hmm. And why is that?
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Well, we'll talk
about that. Good!
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Well I want to get in to find
what you want to share with us.
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And it's as a Christian that
I'd like to ask: "Can evolution
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survive the new
biological insights? "
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Obviously there's a
whole lot of insights out there
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and this is now going
through the biological one.
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Talk us through it
a little bit on that.
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OK. The reason for bringing
that up is that we're kind of
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in a new day in a sense.
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Evolution is clearly the domi-
nant point of view in science.
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And evolutionary biologists
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uniformly believe that
there's no other choice. Um-hmm.
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But it's very interesting...
there's a growing controversy
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among scientists - among
even evolutionary scientists -
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over this issue.
And the vast majority
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of evolutionary
biologists are firmly committed
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to Darwin's theory. All
change... all living things
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have come about by random
mutations and natural selection.
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Um-hmm. That's what
I learned at school.
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Right... but there's
a growing controversy
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with another group of scientists
who are not really creationists
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but they are finding that
Darwin's theory doesn't work.
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Hmm. And that's what
I like to talk about.
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Hmm, and you're saying
they're not really creationists?
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No, they're not creationists.
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But they're not
necessarily Christians...
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or they're Christians
who do believe in creation?
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For a long time there's been
an argument between creationists
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and evolutionists...
but right now I'm not really
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talking about that. I'm talking
about what's happening within
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mainline science. Yes! Hmm.
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That those who don't believe
in creation are also finding
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they don't believe
in evolution so much?
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They find Darwin's
theory doesn't work. Hmm!
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I hear a lot of the word
intelligent design, you know?
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And there is
evidence of intelligent design
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and when we look
closely into different aspects -
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of all the different
aspects of the human body
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and the genes and all that...
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I know you're
going to talk about them.
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But there is a great controversy
within science, is that right?
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Yes there is. And these
scientists I'm talking about
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don't necessarily agree
with intelligent design.
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But there are other
things they're finding
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OK - like? that we don't
see as intelligent design.
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So what sort of
things would they be?
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Well, let me give a
little background first.
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What did Darwin know? OK,
he worked and wrote his book
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in the mid 1800's. Um-hmm.
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OK. And think back then:
what did we know about life?
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There was... nothing whatever
was known about the cell.
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What is life? They thought the
cell was a simple little thing.
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This was decades before
the beginning of the field
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of genetics or
evolutionary... sorry...
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molecular biology. Um-hmm.
Nothing really was known.
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They didn't know about
vitamins and minerals. No.
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They didn't know
about germs. So...
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then in the 1930's and 1940's
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there was
developed the synthesis...
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the new synthesis of evolution.
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The... Anyway, they put together
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genetics, paleontology,
and all these things
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for the new
synthesis of evolution.
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OK, which is actually the
theory of evolution as it is
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understood now. Um-hmm.
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But still, this was in the
30's and 40's. Molecular biology
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didn't really get started in
a strong way until about 1950.
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And so we still didn't know many
things that are very important.
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And so evolution didn't
develop in an era of knowledge
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about life. Hmm... that's right.
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That's why you mentioned
the "theory" of evolution.
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And we talk about it.
When I learned it at school
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it was the theory of
evolution. Yeah. So you know
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as knowledge is becoming
more prominently available to us
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we're seeing that: "Hey, if
Darwin knew about these things,
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would he have
said what he said? "
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Yeah... probably not. And also
Darwin wasn't really a scientist
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was he? Well, I don't
know if we could say that
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because academic fields
were not that well developed
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at that point. Yeah, he
was educated in science.
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And medicine wasn't even
that far advanced in those days
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either. So he
knew enough in general.
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Hmm.
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So the new evidence in molecular
biology. Just talk us thru that.
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And this new evidence
I'm talking about today is
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especially coming from
molecular biology because
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that's the study of the cell.
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And any evolution - any change
- is going to happen at the
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cellular level within the cell.
With an individual cell. Um-hmm.
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And Darwin knew
nothing about that
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and his colleagues
knew nothing about that.
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And so what is being
found... and the new insights
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that I'm talking about
are coming especially from
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new developments like
the ability to analyze DNA
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in detail.
Um-hmm. And so this is
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revealing a number
of important things.
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And that's not
long ago because the DNA
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I think was discovered in 1958.
Was that about when it was?
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Around that time?
About that time, yeah.
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So we can see we're on a
steep learning curve, aren't we?
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when we're talking about
molecular biology and science.
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In the last 5-10
years the ability to analyze
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DNA has just
"taken off. " Um-hmm. Yes.
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About I don't know 10,
15 years ago maybe more
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I was talking to a group
of teachers, biology teachers.
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And one of them asked
me: "Why are evolutionists
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so much more
confident of their theory now?
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Is there new
evidence they've found? "
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And I can answer that better
now than I could at that time,
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but that's really what
we'll talk about. All right.
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OK. What is the new
evidence that's being found?
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Yeah, because they had
to find a code, didn't they?
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Yeah, that was the beginning
but that still was not enough.
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The new insights
are very important.
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One of the things
that's being studied a lot
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in recent years is the
question of junk DNA. OK.
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OK, what is junk
DNA? I know what junk is
00:12:03.52\00:12:05.99
and I know what DNA is. Yeah.
00:12:06.19\00:12:07.52
DNA is of course the
information that determines
00:12:07.89\00:12:12.19
what proteins will be
made and what kind of organisms
00:12:12.39\00:12:14.66
will be made, etc.
00:12:14.86\00:12:16.46
And we have a... our
genes can be put in a couple
00:12:17.33\00:12:22.00
of categories. One is
called sometimes silent DNA.
00:12:22.20\00:12:26.04
Um-hmm. It doesn't
seem to do anything.
00:12:26.24\00:12:29.21
The other category is
coding DNA that defines
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how to make protein...
00:12:32.58\00:12:34.02
recipes for
making specific proteins.
00:12:34.22\00:12:36.58
And in the
percentage of this coding DNA
00:12:38.42\00:12:43.99
or the silent DNA is very dif-
ferent in different organisms.
00:12:44.19\00:12:47.66
OK. The silent DNA, since
it doesn't seem to do anything,
00:12:47.86\00:12:50.83
has been called
junk DNA for years.
00:12:51.03\00:12:52.97
Just garbage left over
from the evolution process
00:12:53.37\00:12:56.87
that doesn't do anything. Ah!
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So one question to consider is
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humans seem to
have 98% of their DNA
00:13:02.24\00:13:05.91
in that category.
00:13:06.11\00:13:07.45
You're kidding!
Junk DNA. That's so much!
00:13:07.48\00:13:09.62
So would you be
willing to have 98% of your DNA
00:13:09.82\00:13:11.85
removed? No! I didn't think so.
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Well so for a long time there
has been this very firm concept
00:13:14.82\00:13:20.80
of junk DNA. But
interesting: thru the years...
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the last maybe
10, 15 years or more
00:13:25.63\00:13:28.17
articles would come out periodi-
cally that raised some questions
00:13:28.37\00:13:31.67
about junk DNA. I remember
in one very prominent journal
00:13:31.87\00:13:37.45
there was an article
that said: "Is it junk DNA
00:13:37.65\00:13:42.82
that makes us human? "
So they're finding that this
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what was thought to be
junk was actually defining
00:13:45.99\00:13:48.56
some important
characteristics about humans.
00:13:48.76\00:13:50.73
Ah! And gradually
this went on until
00:13:50.93\00:13:53.60
in 2012 a very
major research project
00:13:53.90\00:13:59.80
was finished
called the ENCODE Project.
00:14:00.00\00:14:02.84
That was a
government- funded project with
00:14:03.04\00:14:05.64
hundreds of microbiologists
analyzing different bits of
00:14:05.84\00:14:09.44
our DNA... human DNA. Yes.
00:14:09.64\00:14:12.15
And they find that all this
silent DNA was doing something.
00:14:12.55\00:14:16.62
It's not just
junk... it's doing something.
00:14:17.02\00:14:20.96
And after that
research was finished
00:14:21.16\00:14:24.96
you could say that junk DNA
really is not a useful concept
00:14:25.16\00:14:29.80
any more. Hmm! Most or all
of our DNA is doing something...
00:14:30.00\00:14:34.10
something important.
So there's not 98% of us
00:14:34.70\00:14:37.54
that's junk. There's
still this certain category of
00:14:37.74\00:14:41.94
DNA that is 98% for us.
That's not junk any more!
00:14:42.14\00:14:44.95
But it's not junk, no. Hmm.
00:14:45.15\00:14:46.48
That's really the
stuff that tells other genes
00:14:46.51\00:14:49.95
like the protein
for anything tells them
00:14:50.15\00:14:52.32
when to do their thing
and how much and whatever.
00:14:52.52\00:14:55.29
Then that's what determines
whether our DNA is gonna
00:14:55.49\00:14:59.79
make us into a human,
a chimpanzee, or a mouse.
00:15:00.00\00:15:03.57
That's what's really important.
00:15:04.60\00:15:06.37
And so... and this
is a bit of a problem
00:15:06.57\00:15:10.77
for evolution because
that junk DNA was thought to be
00:15:10.97\00:15:14.54
a category of stuff
that's not useful any more
00:15:14.74\00:15:18.91
but it can mutate and make
new genes to do new things.
00:15:19.11\00:15:23.45
Well, that doesn't seem
to be available any more.
00:15:23.65\00:15:26.05
And like you said, it was
left over from evolutionary
00:15:26.25\00:15:29.72
process - yes - but
instead it's actually
00:15:29.92\00:15:33.73
very important. Yes.
Even now it's very important
00:15:33.93\00:15:37.50
for every individual who
lives. That's right. Hmm.
00:15:37.70\00:15:40.60
That's extremely interesting
00:15:40.80\00:15:42.20
because I had heard of junk DNA
00:15:42.40\00:15:45.41
and wondered what it was.
00:15:45.61\00:15:47.14
Yeah. But it's not junk.
What about other animals?
00:15:47.34\00:15:50.28
Do they have a large amount
or a small amount of junk DNA?
00:15:52.15\00:15:56.18
Do you know? It's
interesting actually.
00:15:56.38\00:15:57.79
One of the bits of
evidence that begin to build up
00:15:57.99\00:15:59.89
is that somebody looked
at a very large number of
00:16:00.09\00:16:03.32
scientific papers on junk DNA.
00:16:03.53\00:16:05.59
And they found that
the simplest things like
00:16:05.79\00:16:08.93
little bacteria, other things,
00:16:09.13\00:16:12.43
have a very small
amount of junk DNA.
00:16:12.63\00:16:14.90
And as animals get more complex
00:16:15.30\00:16:17.31
you go to the simple
invertebrates and on up
00:16:17.51\00:16:19.97
the more complex they are
the higher percentage of the DNA
00:16:20.18\00:16:24.18
is junk until you get up...
There's this curve you can draw.
00:16:24.41\00:16:28.58
You get up to humans
and now we're 98% junk DNA.
00:16:28.78\00:16:31.05
So this looks like junk
DNA is important in defining
00:16:31.45\00:16:36.42
how complex things are. Yes!
00:16:36.62\00:16:38.46
And that really is the
case now we understand.
00:16:38.66\00:16:40.53
Now instead of saying the
more involved you are the more
00:16:40.73\00:16:44.53
junk you have left over
from the previous - yeah -
00:16:44.73\00:16:48.84
form of life. That
doesn't seem to be the case.
00:16:49.04\00:16:53.84
Well, the more
complex you are the more junk.
00:16:54.08\00:16:57.98
Yeah. But it's
not because it's junk.
00:16:58.18\00:17:00.92
It's because that's
what makes you complex.
00:17:01.12\00:17:04.02
Yes. That's very
interesting. That's fantastic!
00:17:04.22\00:17:06.09
You know, I think you've
come through a period of time
00:17:06.29\00:17:10.49
where it wasn't
taught and I'm saying
00:17:10.69\00:17:13.50
you've been doing your
work for a number of years.
00:17:13.70\00:17:16.03
You've seen a great
change, haven't you?
00:17:16.23\00:17:18.00
You must be pretty excited
00:17:18.20\00:17:20.20
with all this information
that's now being discovered
00:17:20.40\00:17:23.84
if I can use that word.
Yes. I mean, what is it doing
00:17:24.04\00:17:27.01
for you? What is it
strengthening your thought
00:17:27.21\00:17:30.71
of an intelligent
designer - a God designer -
00:17:30.91\00:17:33.65
or is it following
down the lines of evolution?
00:17:33.85\00:17:37.32
No, evolution is in
trouble really. Yeah.
00:17:37.52\00:17:40.26
The more we learn the more
we realize how complex we are.
00:17:40.66\00:17:45.16
The closer we delve into
the... I guess that we've never
00:17:45.36\00:17:50.43
seen before we're seeing it
now we can see evidence of it.
00:17:50.63\00:17:53.97
We understand now that
you don't get another species
00:17:54.17\00:17:57.37
that's better than
the last through the DNA
00:17:57.57\00:17:59.54
because the DNA doesn't
have that capacity to do that,
00:17:59.74\00:18:02.04
has it? To pass on
that information? Well
00:18:02.24\00:18:03.98
the real issue is the Darwinian
theory that all change must come
00:18:04.18\00:18:09.45
by random mutation.
00:18:09.65\00:18:11.12
That's because
if mutations occur
00:18:11.32\00:18:14.69
because they're useful
then how did that happen?
00:18:14.89\00:18:18.53
Somebody must know
what's needed. Yes!
00:18:18.73\00:18:21.30
The Darwinian process
- the evolution process -
00:18:21.50\00:18:23.93
requires that
everything that changes
00:18:25.03\00:18:27.54
must start with random
mutations. Random in the sense
00:18:27.70\00:18:30.84
that the mutation process
does not know what would be
00:18:31.04\00:18:33.24
good for the animal. It's random
00:18:33.44\00:18:35.98
because there's no
Creator, there's no Designer.
00:18:36.38\00:18:40.02
And then natural selection is
the only thing that can decide
00:18:40.22\00:18:42.55
which one of those
changes is going to survive.
00:18:42.75\00:18:44.95
But we know from the DNA
that that doesn't happen -
00:18:45.15\00:18:49.06
it's not possible to happen
- because the DNA determines
00:18:49.26\00:18:52.99
The DNA can't get more complex.
00:18:57.07\00:18:59.30
The genes... sorry...
can't get more complex.
00:18:59.63\00:19:02.50
They have to
retro... Well, they could.
00:19:02.70\00:19:04.11
The theory is that they
do... they DO get more complex.
00:19:04.31\00:19:07.44
The question is:
do they really? Yes.
00:19:07.88\00:19:09.68
And of course
in Darwinian theory
00:19:09.88\00:19:12.21
all changes then must not
only start with random changes
00:19:12.41\00:19:15.95
but the changes has to
come by a gradual accumulation
00:19:16.15\00:19:19.95
of very small changes. Um-hmm.
00:19:20.16\00:19:22.19
But that comes
to another problem
00:19:22.59\00:19:24.83
and that is: per
the Darwinian theory
00:19:25.03\00:19:29.50
any new gene has to
have an evolutionary history
00:19:29.70\00:19:34.34
of gradual changes in that
gene to make a new gene. Right.
00:19:34.54\00:19:39.07
But now with the ability
to analyze DNA so carefully
00:19:39.81\00:19:43.58
they find that there are
things called orphan genes.
00:19:43.78\00:19:46.01
Um-hmm. Genes which just appear
00:19:46.21\00:19:49.15
in some organisms with
no evolutionary history.
00:19:49.35\00:19:51.79
OK. And this is a
severe problem because...
00:19:51.99\00:19:55.66
especially 'cause
there's a lot of these,
00:19:55.86\00:19:57.19
thousands of
these. 10% to 20% of genes
00:19:57.39\00:20:00.70
are orphan genes... they don't
have an evolutionary history.
00:20:00.90\00:20:04.17
And to give you an example:
honeybees have a set of genes
00:20:05.27\00:20:08.74
that make them able to
make honey and other things
00:20:08.94\00:20:12.41
about the honeybees.
00:20:12.61\00:20:13.94
OK... those are
all orphan genes.
00:20:14.01\00:20:15.84
There is no evolutionary
history of those genes.
00:20:16.04\00:20:18.91
It's like
somebody put them there
00:20:19.11\00:20:22.62
because they were needed...
which I think is what happened,
00:20:22.82\00:20:24.75
of course. Um-hmm; yes.
And all these orphan genes...
00:20:24.95\00:20:27.82
we have many... we have
hundreds of orphan genes
00:20:28.02\00:20:30.43
that you won't find in chim-
panzees or any other organism.
00:20:30.63\00:20:33.63
You won't find an
evolutionary trail
00:20:33.96\00:20:35.73
as to how we got those...
they just appeared in humans.
00:20:35.93\00:20:39.50
And so this is a
problem for Darwin's theory.
00:20:39.90\00:20:43.07
It's a severe problem. And to
be human you have to have those
00:20:43.27\00:20:46.27
orphan genes? Yeah. Take
them out and you're done.
00:20:46.47\00:20:50.61
Yeah. But I was thinking, too,
with the evolutionary change
00:20:50.81\00:20:54.88
if you have to have that history
00:20:55.08\00:20:57.59
wouldn't you need
more than one organism
00:20:57.75\00:21:01.92
to have the same random
changes as another organism
00:21:02.12\00:21:06.59
for them to be able to...
function... to get to a point
00:21:06.80\00:21:11.00
where they have a
function that is necessary
00:21:11.20\00:21:14.64
and then they can breed
and start a new organism?
00:21:14.84\00:21:17.94
Well... that's a complex story.
But you think of honeybees.
00:21:18.34\00:21:22.71
Others don't have to have
the genes for making honey.
00:21:23.11\00:21:26.78
Right. Just the
honeybees have those.
00:21:26.98\00:21:29.28
And so in that case
you wouldn't have...
00:21:29.58\00:21:32.62
you wouldn't have that gene
in other organisms necessarily.
00:21:32.82\00:21:35.16
Now the important genes
that simply make us function
00:21:35.36\00:21:37.86
then what you're
saying would have to be true.
00:21:38.06\00:21:40.06
They'd have to be
in various organisms.
00:21:40.26\00:21:42.23
Hmm. So if they're random
who's to say another organism's
00:21:42.43\00:21:46.74
going to have that
same random change?
00:21:46.94\00:21:50.31
Well, that... the
theory can handle that
00:21:50.57\00:21:54.18
because one organism gets
change and this is carried on to
00:21:54.38\00:21:58.11
other organisms, so,
yeah, you could handle that.
00:21:58.31\00:22:00.38
But orphan genes are a problem.
00:22:00.58\00:22:02.62
Um-hmm. I've never heard
of them. That's really cool.
00:22:02.82\00:22:05.19
And then there's
another category that's
00:22:05.39\00:22:08.56
well it's been
studied maybe since the 1980's
00:22:08.76\00:22:11.39
but really it's come to
be prominent in recent years.
00:22:11.59\00:22:14.63
That's something
called epigenetics. Um-hmm.
00:22:14.83\00:22:17.10
Um-hmm. You may
have heard of that. Yes!
00:22:17.30\00:22:19.03
In the Bible
there's a text that says
00:22:20.27\00:22:22.44
the sins of the father are
carried to the third and fourth
00:22:24.07\00:22:26.41
generation. I always wondered
what that's all about. Yes.
00:22:26.61\00:22:29.71
Now we know: DNA is not enough.
00:22:29.91\00:22:34.68
DNA has a lot of information
but it's like a hard drive
00:22:35.08\00:22:39.85
in your computer.
It's full of information
00:22:40.06\00:22:41.86
but a hard drive by itself
can do absolutely nothing.
00:22:42.06\00:22:44.66
That's right. It has to
have a management system
00:22:44.86\00:22:47.06
to tell it what to do
with that information.
00:22:47.26\00:22:49.00
Well now we've realized we
were probably very naive before
00:22:49.20\00:22:52.77
but now we realize that there
is also those management systems
00:22:52.97\00:22:57.27
in our genetics. Epigenetics
00:22:57.47\00:23:01.71
means above or
outside of the DNA.
00:23:01.91\00:23:04.51
So there are processes
- management processes -
00:23:04.71\00:23:08.32
outside of the DNA that control
how the DNA will be used.
00:23:08.52\00:23:11.99
OK. And it puts
little tags on the DNA
00:23:12.19\00:23:14.79
to turn genes on or off
00:23:14.99\00:23:16.89
or to adjust how much they work.
00:23:17.09\00:23:19.89
And that's epigenetics.
That's a very important subject.
00:23:20.10\00:23:23.13
To have an understanding of that
is beneficial for the human race
00:23:23.33\00:23:26.37
isn't it? Yes. If
we're going to have children,
00:23:26.57\00:23:29.37
we'd better live
carefully and live right
00:23:29.57\00:23:31.94
because it's going to
affect our children through
00:23:32.14\00:23:34.04
the epigenetic process.
Hmm. Thankfully that we can
00:23:34.24\00:23:37.81
do something about the epi-
genetics by changing lifestyle.
00:23:39.11\00:23:43.08
That's right. It can
affect future generations.
00:23:43.28\00:23:45.89
And that can turn on and off
certain genes, can't it? Right.
00:23:46.09\00:23:49.96
So if we change our lifestyle
to something that's good
00:23:50.16\00:23:53.56
we will be able to turn
off some of the bad genes...
00:23:53.96\00:23:58.60
At least in the next
second or third generation.
00:23:58.80\00:24:00.90
But if we actually
change our lifestyle to worse
00:24:01.10\00:24:06.01
than what we were doing
before then we're going to be
00:24:06.41\00:24:09.01
causing a huge
liability to our children.
00:24:09.21\00:24:12.15
Yeah.
00:24:12.35\00:24:13.68
And so... OK, epigenetics. Why
is this a problem for evolution?
00:24:13.72\00:24:16.79
Well, it's for a good reason.
00:24:17.65\00:24:19.65
Because it's now known
that organisms, the DNA process,
00:24:19.85\00:24:25.66
the cellular processes,
00:24:25.86\00:24:27.86
are influenced by the environ-
ment - um-hmm - to cause
00:24:28.06\00:24:32.33
to initiate these
epigenetic changes
00:24:32.73\00:24:35.77
which are beneficial.
They can be inherited you know.
00:24:35.97\00:24:41.24
And OK... so if
00:24:41.44\00:24:44.45
and they can be carried on
to at least a few generations
00:24:44.65\00:24:47.08
maybe more. And
so if something...
00:24:47.28\00:24:49.58
if a change happens
because it's beneficial,
00:24:49.78\00:24:52.65
then it looks like somebody's
monkeying with the system.
00:24:53.86\00:24:57.23
There's a genetic foresight
that knows what is needed.
00:24:57.43\00:25:00.10
OK. That can't be
in Darwinian theory.
00:25:00.30\00:25:03.33
Um-hmm. That's a severe
problem for Darwin's theory.
00:25:03.53\00:25:06.63
And yet epigenetics seems to
be showing that that's the case.
00:25:06.84\00:25:10.34
Umm. Does it mean
with genetics, you know,
00:25:10.54\00:25:14.44
you hear that people have had
a genetic... they've been born
00:25:14.64\00:25:17.88
with some sort
of genetic problem.
00:25:18.08\00:25:20.65
Like their parents have got this
gene that is some random thing
00:25:21.25\00:25:27.26
that when they both
get together, have a child
00:25:27.52\00:25:31.09
and that child has got the
random gene from both sides
00:25:31.29\00:25:33.66
and they end up with a problem.
00:25:33.86\00:25:35.63
With epigenetics, could
that help that situation
00:25:36.16\00:25:40.00
where the parents can do some-
thing to turn off their genes?
00:25:40.20\00:25:44.34
I don't think so. That's
unrealistic as far as I know.
00:25:44.54\00:25:47.84
Yeah. I was
just wondering. Yeah.
00:25:48.04\00:25:49.38
And so epigenetics is a problem
00:25:49.58\00:25:54.55
for Darwin's theory.
But it's very important.
00:25:54.75\00:25:57.55
Yes. And I'm amazed. You
know, you mentioned 1980.
00:25:57.85\00:26:01.49
So all the time we're getting
more and more information.
00:26:01.69\00:26:06.13
The Bible says that we are
"wonderfully & fearfully made. "
00:26:06.33\00:26:10.97
It's true, isn't it? As
you discover more and more
00:26:11.17\00:26:14.50
you can see that
there's the handiwork of Someone
00:26:14.70\00:26:18.64
who knows what He's doing.
Yeah. And the Bible also says
00:26:18.84\00:26:21.44
at the end of time
knowledge will increase.
00:26:21.64\00:26:23.95
Yes, that's right. And
even this scientific knowledge
00:26:24.15\00:26:27.92
just about genes and DNA is
amazing what they're finding
00:26:28.12\00:26:32.05
out and I wonder what
is just around the corner.
00:26:32.25\00:26:35.49
Yeah, undoubtedly
there's more. Another category
00:26:35.69\00:26:39.19
which is not quite as
new but it fits in here:
00:26:39.39\00:26:42.90
that is the question
of irreducible complexity.
00:26:43.10\00:26:45.83
If you... to illustrate that
00:26:46.90\00:26:49.30
if you have part of a car
00:26:49.50\00:26:52.27
but you don't have
the engine will it work?
00:26:52.47\00:26:55.54
No. No, it has to be all
there before it will work.
00:26:55.74\00:26:58.28
That's right. And there are
structures in living organisms
00:26:58.48\00:27:01.88
which seem to be like that.
In fact, obviously that are
00:27:02.08\00:27:04.32
like that. The
structure has to be all
00:27:04.52\00:27:09.26
complete before it will work.
00:27:09.46\00:27:12.66
And so if you're going to evolve
things a little step at a time
00:27:13.73\00:27:17.83
how can that be? Umm! And
many evolutionists will deny
00:27:18.03\00:27:22.74
that this is a problem
but they really don't have
00:27:22.94\00:27:26.04
good answers for this
issue of irreducible complexity.
00:27:26.24\00:27:30.45
That's like a bombardier beetle.
00:27:30.65\00:27:32.51
Yeah, how do you get the
different parts of this system
00:27:33.01\00:27:36.32
there? Just one part at a
time is not going to work.
00:27:36.52\00:27:39.59
Yeah. And if you get them
both together without being in
00:27:39.79\00:27:42.29
separate chambers
in that little creature
00:27:42.49\00:27:45.26
it will blow
itself apart. Right.
00:27:45.46\00:27:47.03
There has to be something
set up from the very beginning
00:27:48.20\00:27:50.70
that these two
chemicals are there
00:27:50.90\00:27:53.80
separated and that at a specific
time the animal can trigger them
00:27:54.00\00:27:58.61
to ignite together. Otherwise
the animal would not exist.
00:27:58.81\00:28:03.14
And which part is
going to develop first?
00:28:03.35\00:28:05.71
And I read
recently about an organism
00:28:06.11\00:28:08.15
that has a type of chemical
that it uses in some way
00:28:08.35\00:28:12.69
which is actually the
same thing as jet fuel.
00:28:12.89\00:28:16.86
Um-hmm. It's
extremely dangerous -
00:28:17.06\00:28:19.43
yes - but it has a
way of dealing with this.
00:28:19.63\00:28:21.60
And so the system
all had to be there.
00:28:21.80\00:28:24.10
I suppose it's a
bit like the eye, too.
00:28:24.30\00:28:26.03
I think of all the
reproductive system, you know.
00:28:26.23\00:28:29.34
It all has to be there or not.
00:28:29.54\00:28:32.07
Well, that's a complex system
00:28:32.27\00:28:34.81
and scientists can
probably define a way
00:28:35.01\00:28:40.05
you could do that a little
bit at a time and change it
00:28:40.25\00:28:42.28
a little bit and
make it sound good.
00:28:42.48\00:28:43.82
But there are a lot
of specific structures
00:28:44.02\00:28:47.12
that can't be
that simply explained.
00:28:47.32\00:28:50.83
It has to be there or not.
00:28:51.03\00:28:52.49
And I've talked about all
these things, and there's...
00:28:52.89\00:28:56.56
there's a group of scientists
that are sometimes referred to
00:28:56.77\00:29:00.20
as the new evolutionists.
00:29:00.40\00:29:01.97
OK. So that kind of
helps to bring this together
00:29:02.17\00:29:04.91
and see how this is working.
00:29:05.11\00:29:07.94
And I mentioned
that the vast majority
00:29:08.14\00:29:12.68
of what you might call main-
stream evolutionary biologists
00:29:12.88\00:29:15.62
maintain that Darwin's theory
is the way everything happened.
00:29:16.02\00:29:19.55
OK. That's how
we all came about.
00:29:19.75\00:29:22.49
But there's a group of
scientists, especially molecular
00:29:22.89\00:29:26.63
biologists, who are realizing
that: "No, it's not like that. "
00:29:26.83\00:29:30.93
From all these new
discoveries they're realizing...
00:29:31.13\00:29:33.54
Well that's what I'm thinking
about! How can you maintain
00:29:33.74\00:29:36.10
the same thought - yeah -
when there's so much information
00:29:36.30\00:29:39.47
that in the last 20, 30 years
00:29:39.67\00:29:42.51
that are contrary to what
was being said in the past.
00:29:42.71\00:29:45.78
Blow it out of the
water. And these people that I'm
00:29:45.98\00:29:47.95
talking about
are not creationists.
00:29:48.15\00:29:50.65
I mean there are certainly
creationists who understand
00:29:50.85\00:29:52.85
all this stuff, too.
But there's this group
00:29:53.05\00:29:54.72
I'm talking about.
They're not creationists
00:29:54.92\00:29:57.13
but they realize
Darwin's theory doesn't work -
00:29:57.33\00:29:59.39
um-hmm - for some of
these reasons and others.
00:29:59.59\00:30:02.33
And some of them are very frank.
00:30:02.73\00:30:05.03
They say it; they write
it. They say Darwinian theory
00:30:05.23\00:30:07.34
cannot work. The
process of random mutation
00:30:07.54\00:30:10.37
can't do anything
of any significance.
00:30:10.57\00:30:12.97
Um-hmm. The cell is
far too sophisticated
00:30:13.17\00:30:16.18
for that to be true.
00:30:16.38\00:30:17.78
And so they realize.
They may still believe that...
00:30:18.18\00:30:20.45
they've been taught how that
evolution answers everything
00:30:20.65\00:30:23.99
and so they may
still hold onto this
00:30:24.39\00:30:26.45
but they realize Darwin's theory
can't be the way it happened.
00:30:26.65\00:30:31.29
One of them... an
eminent microbiologist, he says:
00:30:31.49\00:30:35.43
"How evolution
happened is a mystery
00:30:35.63\00:30:37.37
but Darwinism can't be true. "
00:30:38.40\00:30:40.30
"Darwin's theory cannot work. "
00:30:40.70\00:30:42.34
And so this is a very
interesting development.
00:30:43.34\00:30:45.47
I wondered: "OK, how
do evolutionary scientists
00:30:48.01\00:30:51.48
deal with this? " So I
got... I want to know too!
00:30:51.68\00:30:53.92
Yes. I'm only a lay person,
00:30:54.12\00:30:55.98
you know, but I understand
00:30:56.18\00:30:58.42
that because of all the infor-
mation that has been gathered
00:30:58.62\00:31:01.59
now you have to make a
decision one way or the other.
00:31:01.79\00:31:04.29
It can't be both. Yes. No.
00:31:04.49\00:31:07.16
So I got the latest
copies, the latest editions,
00:31:07.83\00:31:11.77
of seven different
evolution textbooks
00:31:11.97\00:31:15.07
and I looked for epigenetics,
00:31:15.27\00:31:18.61
or for orphan genes, these
things. How they deal with this.
00:31:18.81\00:31:21.68
Um-hmm. None of them
mentioned orphan genes
00:31:21.88\00:31:24.51
even though that's a
deadly challenge to evolution.
00:31:24.91\00:31:27.65
None of them
mentioned orphan genes.
00:31:27.85\00:31:29.45
They ignore
them. Yes, absolutely.
00:31:30.19\00:31:32.59
Some of them didn't say
anything about epigenetics.
00:31:32.79\00:31:35.49
Others have from
a sentence or two
00:31:35.89\00:31:38.23
to a couple of
pages on epigenetics
00:31:38.43\00:31:41.00
and they all downplay it and
say: "Well it really isn't doing
00:31:41.20\00:31:44.83
anything important. "
00:31:45.03\00:31:46.74
So they just deny
that it's of any value.
00:31:46.94\00:31:51.84
So that's the way
they're dealing with it:
00:31:54.68\00:31:56.95
they're just
not dealing with it.
00:31:57.15\00:31:58.58
Hmm. BUT there's another
group of evolution textbooks -
00:31:58.78\00:32:03.28
four books that I found -
00:32:03.49\00:32:04.82
and they are
written by this group.
00:32:04.95\00:32:08.79
They're called the
new evolutionists, right?
00:32:08.99\00:32:10.83
OK. These people
recognize that epigenetics
00:32:11.03\00:32:13.86
and other things are
real. They're here to stay.
00:32:14.06\00:32:16.60
And they're trying to
use epigenetics to develop
00:32:17.00\00:32:19.77
a new synthesis of
evolution - uh-huh -
00:32:19.97\00:32:22.47
called the extended synthesis.
00:32:22.67\00:32:24.17
One that's better than what
Darwin had come up with? Yes.
00:32:24.37\00:32:27.54
And there's an
interesting episode here.
00:32:27.94\00:32:30.85
Back about 2000- the year 2000-
00:32:31.05\00:32:36.02
I was at a meeting of
vertebrate paleontologists.
00:32:36.22\00:32:38.92
And a very eminent
vertebrate paleontologist was
00:32:39.32\00:32:42.16
talking about the
process of evolution
00:32:42.36\00:32:44.66
and he made a statement. He said
"The evolutionary synthesis" -
00:32:45.06\00:32:48.90
the new synthesis that was
developed in the 30's and 40's -
00:32:49.10\00:32:52.00
he says: "That
has to be re-done. "
00:32:52.20\00:32:54.80
And he said: "This time
we're not going to blow it. "
00:32:55.00\00:32:57.21
OK. I wonder what he meant.
00:32:57.41\00:32:59.81
Now I think I'm
understanding what he meant
00:33:00.84\00:33:02.68
because that synthesis is
the one that doesn't work.
00:33:03.08\00:33:05.85
And so these guys, these four
books with more than 4 people,
00:33:07.02\00:33:11.85
but they're trying to
develop this new synthesis
00:33:12.05\00:33:15.56
that is built
around epigenetics.
00:33:15.76\00:33:17.79
And so you've
got two groups here.
00:33:17.99\00:33:19.83
I'm mentioning this conflict
that's developing. Um-hmm.
00:33:20.03\00:33:21.90
You might say the traditional
evolutionary biologists
00:33:22.30\00:33:27.40
and then this group
of new evolutionists.
00:33:27.60\00:33:31.87
The traditional ones
don't like this new group
00:33:32.07\00:33:35.91
any more than
they like creationists.
00:33:36.11\00:33:38.01
You know, they
don't like this idea
00:33:38.91\00:33:41.48
that Darwin's
theory doesn't work.
00:33:42.18\00:33:43.59
And... They've built
their lives around it.
00:33:44.49\00:33:47.46
Yeah, they have, absolutely.
00:33:47.66\00:33:49.12
A couple years ago
there was a big conference
00:33:49.52\00:33:51.56
somewhere in Europe where
these 2 groups got together
00:33:51.76\00:33:55.16
and sort of tried
to deal with this.
00:33:55.36\00:33:57.37
And people who were there
say that the traditional...
00:33:58.27\00:34:02.50
Well no, the new synthesis
00:34:02.70\00:34:06.71
people would
present their arguments.
00:34:06.91\00:34:09.11
The others would just
say: "Well natural selection
00:34:09.31\00:34:10.85
will take care of that. "
And they never really tried to
00:34:11.05\00:34:13.75
answer. They never deal with it.
00:34:13.95\00:34:15.28
They never deal
with it really, no.
00:34:15.45\00:34:17.05
I see that when you
look at the two groups
00:34:17.92\00:34:21.19
we're a product of
what we are taught -
00:34:21.39\00:34:23.29
every one of us -
00:34:23.49\00:34:25.06
so that develops our world view.
00:34:25.26\00:34:26.93
And so to change a world
view it takes something quite
00:34:27.13\00:34:30.13
outstanding. So you
know for someone to say
00:34:30.33\00:34:33.87
"Look, I've believed
in evolution all my life
00:34:34.07\00:34:36.44
and to vary from that
is not an easy thing. "
00:34:36.64\00:34:40.38
Because you don't have
that vision or a broader vision
00:34:40.78\00:34:43.75
of saying: "Well I'm going
to look at all the evidence
00:34:43.95\00:34:46.31
and make a decision. "
Because that means you have to
00:34:46.51\00:34:48.98
say: "I've changed my view. "
00:34:49.18\00:34:51.45
Well the new evolutionists...
00:34:51.65\00:34:54.36
they're not
becoming creationists.
00:34:55.02\00:34:56.93
And so they're still trying to
say that they're evolutionists.
00:34:57.13\00:35:00.06
But the problem is
what they're suggesting
00:35:00.56\00:35:04.07
seems to be a
problem because epigenetics
00:35:04.27\00:35:07.00
for instance
implies genetic foresight.
00:35:07.20\00:35:09.00
That's right. Somebody
who designed the system
00:35:09.20\00:35:11.21
knew what needed to work.
00:35:11.41\00:35:12.87
Hmm. And one of the big problems
is that neither one of these
00:35:13.07\00:35:15.44
groups have an
explanation for how you get
00:35:15.64\00:35:19.01
real new things... novelty.
00:35:19.21\00:35:21.98
Here's this
feather. OK, how do you...
00:35:23.18\00:35:26.72
how does evolution
invent things like a feather?
00:35:26.92\00:35:29.76
Natural
selection doesn't do that.
00:35:31.63\00:35:33.29
Natural selection does
absolutely nothing to make
00:35:33.50\00:35:35.66
something new. Natural
selection only eliminates
00:35:35.86\00:35:39.13
things that don't
work well. Uh-huh.
00:35:39.33\00:35:40.97
To make
something you have to do...
00:35:41.57\00:35:42.90
To make something with
evolution you have to rely
00:35:43.84\00:35:47.91
on these mutations...
these random mutations.
00:35:48.11\00:35:50.85
OK... So will
random mutations make this?
00:35:51.25\00:35:53.65
OK. The molecular biologists
who are dealing with this
00:35:54.32\00:35:57.82
say: "No there isn't. We
don't know how that happened. "
00:35:58.02\00:36:00.42
How do you make... how
do you invent a feather?
00:36:01.09\00:36:03.46
How do you invent kidneys?
Livers? A whole host of this
00:36:03.66\00:36:07.40
to make something new?
00:36:07.60\00:36:09.33
This is the overwhelming
challenge for evolution.
00:36:09.53\00:36:14.37
And the design in a
feather is quite amazing.
00:36:14.57\00:36:17.11
It's awesome... absolutely.
00:36:17.31\00:36:18.97
It may look simple but it
is absolutely not simple. Yeah.
00:36:19.37\00:36:23.45
So how do you
make something new?
00:36:23.65\00:36:25.31
That's what... That's the
big thing that none of these
00:36:25.51\00:36:28.22
theories really
have an answer for.
00:36:28.42\00:36:31.05
What they are really
doing is trying to find
00:36:31.25\00:36:33.25
something other than
an intelligent design.
00:36:33.46\00:36:36.86
That's right. They
need to come up with
00:36:37.06\00:36:39.63
something that is still
00:36:39.83\00:36:42.50
part of the evolutionary process
00:36:42.70\00:36:44.57
but it comes to it from
a different angle. Um-hmm.
00:36:44.83\00:36:48.70
How it began and how we've
been able to get to where we are
00:36:48.90\00:36:52.61
because they don't want there
to be an Intelligent Designer
00:36:52.81\00:36:57.18
behind everything. Absolutely.
That changes their life
00:36:57.38\00:37:00.68
too much. And so there's a
whole lot more we can go into
00:37:00.88\00:37:06.76
too, but thinking
about that question
00:37:06.96\00:37:08.79
that some teachers
asked me years ago:
00:37:08.99\00:37:10.96
Is there new evidence? Why
are evolutionary biologists
00:37:11.36\00:37:15.20
more sure of their
theory now than before?
00:37:15.40\00:37:18.20
And so all the things
we've talked about here
00:37:18.60\00:37:21.10
I thought about
that and realized
00:37:21.30\00:37:23.37
it's not because there's new
evidence. In fact, the evidence
00:37:25.67\00:37:28.18
is absolutely
going the other way.
00:37:28.38\00:37:29.71
It's becoming a serious problem,
more and more serious problem
00:37:30.45\00:37:33.82
for evolution...
for Darwin's theory.
00:37:34.02\00:37:36.12
They are more confident
now because of philosophy.
00:37:37.22\00:37:39.69
OK, if they don't accept
evolution what will they do?
00:37:40.62\00:37:45.39
You know, they have
to accept a Creator.
00:37:45.59\00:37:47.80
And that simply...
if you have a world view
00:37:48.00\00:37:50.23
that denies God
and denies a Creator,
00:37:50.43\00:37:53.50
you have no
choice. You have to believe
00:37:54.00\00:37:56.54
that all this
happened by evolution.
00:37:56.74\00:37:58.77
And so it's
philosophy is what's...
00:37:58.97\00:38:01.21
And I have a diagram I
sometimes use where I...
00:38:01.41\00:38:04.55
I show how these theories
are changing and actually
00:38:04.75\00:38:07.98
macroevolution. I need
to introduce that term.
00:38:08.18\00:38:12.05
Macroevolution is the concept
of not the little changes
00:38:12.25\00:38:16.09
that could happen
within a created type
00:38:16.29\00:38:18.49
but the big changes.
Making reptiles and mammals
00:38:18.69\00:38:22.46
and birds and all these things.
00:38:22.66\00:38:24.00
You know, making
the big categories.
00:38:24.07\00:38:25.80
Macroevolution doesn't work
00:38:29.40\00:38:34.18
you know with the new theory.
00:38:34.34\00:38:37.05
And so there are those who
are realizing the macroevolution
00:38:37.25\00:38:41.92
theory is collapsing.
00:38:42.12\00:38:43.49
It's falling apart with
epigenetics and all these
00:38:43.69\00:38:46.19
other things. But
they're not ready to move
00:38:46.39\00:38:49.99
across the line to
accepting a Creator.
00:38:50.19\00:38:52.79
And so they're saying
things like: "It's a mystery
00:38:53.19\00:38:55.46
how this all works. " So
they don't know how it works
00:38:55.66\00:38:59.10
but they don't accept a Creator.
00:38:59.30\00:39:01.40
So they're a certain
category which the other
00:39:01.60\00:39:05.07
scientists don't like.
00:39:05.27\00:39:06.61
So the ones that are
sort of the traditional
00:39:07.78\00:39:11.25
conventional-thinking
evolutionists I would call them
00:39:11.45\00:39:13.78
hard core evolutionists.
00:39:13.98\00:39:16.08
They're denying
these new... In fact,
00:39:16.28\00:39:19.25
some of these
molecular biologists
00:39:19.45\00:39:21.09
point out that evolutionary
biologists are denying
00:39:21.29\00:39:24.23
three decades of
molecular biology research.
00:39:24.39\00:39:26.80
They're just not accepting it.
00:39:27.00\00:39:29.50
Didn't happen. It's
philosophy that's driving
00:39:29.70\00:39:32.97
their concepts, not evidence.
00:39:33.17\00:39:34.97
I like the concept you
know there's a designer
00:39:35.17\00:39:37.07
of an internal
combustion engine.
00:39:37.27\00:39:38.64
Um-hmm. You know,
did that just happen?
00:39:38.84\00:39:40.88
You know, you can
say: "Well I deny it. "
00:39:41.08\00:39:44.88
But it didn't JUST happen.
It took someone to sit down,
00:39:45.08\00:39:47.98
draw out plans, and
then manufacture. You know,
00:39:48.18\00:39:51.32
put it together
and then watch it work.
00:39:51.52\00:39:54.76
Now that's an interesting
one because it then works.
00:39:55.16\00:39:57.73
And that's why we
have the automobile today.
00:39:57.93\00:39:59.93
And so it's like with
anything that's been given to us
00:40:00.33\00:40:04.23
now through DNA and epigenetics
and all those aspects
00:40:04.43\00:40:08.04
it didn't just happen. Yeah.
00:40:08.24\00:40:10.21
It had to have a
reason and it has a purpose.
00:40:10.41\00:40:12.44
The fact that you're sitting
here and I'm sitting here
00:40:12.64\00:40:14.38
and I'm looking different -
00:40:14.58\00:40:15.91
similar to my dad
but not the same -
00:40:15.94\00:40:18.01
tells you that there is design.
00:40:18.21\00:40:20.65
But there's also the point
that you're looking at the...
00:40:20.85\00:40:23.45
the engine being created.
00:40:23.65\00:40:26.55
They can create an
engine that takes diesel fuel.
00:40:27.56\00:40:30.53
They can create an engine
that has to have gas or petrol.
00:40:30.93\00:40:35.36
They can have a rotary engine.
All these different types
00:40:36.46\00:40:39.37
of engines for
different reasons.
00:40:39.57\00:40:41.14
BUT someone had to
design each one specifically
00:40:41.54\00:40:46.14
for its use. Yeah. There's
one thing we need to clarify
00:40:46.34\00:40:49.54
here and that is if we're
00:40:49.74\00:40:53.18
speaking against evolution
00:40:53.38\00:40:54.72
we'll get criticized for
00:40:54.92\00:40:56.25
rejecting just a whole range of
00:40:56.45\00:40:57.85
things that we don't reject.
00:40:58.05\00:40:59.39
Um-hmm. Bacteria do change.
00:40:59.52\00:41:02.72
They mutate; they
become more dangerous. Viruses.
00:41:02.92\00:41:04.83
We develop antibiotics because
00:41:05.03\00:41:08.60
you know because
these things change.
00:41:08.80\00:41:11.70
And so changes DO occur.
00:41:11.90\00:41:13.37
Yes. We refer to
this as microevolution.
00:41:13.57\00:41:15.70
Changes within species or
even maybe more than species.
00:41:16.10\00:41:19.84
The small changes that
can occur since creation.
00:41:20.24\00:41:23.71
And it's clear that
God made organisms to adapt
00:41:23.91\00:41:26.35
to changing conditions. Yes.
00:41:26.55\00:41:28.18
And that's
microevolution. That's real.
00:41:28.38\00:41:30.99
We don't argue about that.
00:41:31.19\00:41:33.19
I think I read somewhere
about Darwin when he looked at
00:41:33.39\00:41:36.22
finches on an island.
They had longer beaks,
00:41:36.42\00:41:39.19
were differing from the
different area and environment.
00:41:39.39\00:41:44.20
They lived on different food.
00:41:44.40\00:41:45.73
So I understand
'cause I can see it. BUT
00:41:45.90\00:41:48.30
you're not going to get a bac-
teria that evolves genetically
00:41:48.50\00:41:53.27
into a virus. No they don't.
00:41:53.48\00:41:56.24
And you won't get a reptile
that evolves into a mammal
00:41:56.44\00:42:00.75
or a bird.
That's macroevolution.
00:42:00.95\00:42:02.85
That's what
creationists object to:
00:42:03.05\00:42:05.59
what we think is not
real. And that's what's being
00:42:05.79\00:42:08.59
challenged by all these new...
Particularly the DNA, isn't it?
00:42:08.79\00:42:12.19
That's... Language. The
DNA is what defines all of us.
00:42:12.39\00:42:16.40
Yes. And it can't...
00:42:16.60\00:42:18.20
There is no known way
00:42:19.10\00:42:21.50
that DNA can make a
reptile into a mammal.
00:42:21.70\00:42:24.11
To do that...
OK, so what's really
00:42:24.31\00:42:26.31
the difference between micro-
evolution and macroevolution?
00:42:26.51\00:42:28.18
Well microevolution you don't
have to evolve anything new.
00:42:28.38\00:42:31.21
You don't have
to invent feathers.
00:42:31.41\00:42:33.65
You don't have to make
new organs new physiological
00:42:33.85\00:42:37.99
systems. The
differences are small.
00:42:39.55\00:42:41.56
But whereas with macroevolution
you have to invent feathers.
00:42:42.36\00:42:45.33
You have to invent
kidneys; you have to invent
00:42:45.53\00:42:47.43
a lot of other
things... totally new things.
00:42:47.63\00:42:50.63
That's right. I just
think about the human being.
00:42:52.07\00:42:55.47
He's still
here... still the same.
00:42:55.67\00:42:57.87
Yes, there's nothing in between.
00:42:58.74\00:43:02.08
One of my favorite
examples of microevolution,
00:43:03.08\00:43:06.08
in fact, even... well... dogs.
00:43:07.15\00:43:09.78
You know, the
different kinds of dogs? Um-hmm.
00:43:10.19\00:43:12.95
There are hundreds of
different kinds of dogs.
00:43:13.15\00:43:15.32
How did they all come about?
00:43:16.59\00:43:18.09
Well we know the
history of a lot of those.
00:43:18.29\00:43:20.43
Probably 200 or more
dogs have been bred by humans
00:43:20.63\00:43:25.47
in the last couple of centuries.
00:43:25.67\00:43:27.00
And there are still new ones.
00:43:27.34\00:43:28.67
Yeah, and there's anything from
mastiffs to little tiny things
00:43:28.77\00:43:32.27
that I'm sure a wolf
would be embarrassed about.
00:43:32.47\00:43:34.44
We can see they
all came from wolves
00:43:36.28\00:43:39.41
or wolf-like creatures.
00:43:39.61\00:43:41.35
OK, so how did all this happen?
00:43:41.75\00:43:43.52
It's not evolution because
evolution could not happen
00:43:43.72\00:43:46.49
in two centuries.
And anyways, the genes
00:43:46.69\00:43:50.13
are the same. It's
mostly epigenetics.
00:43:50.33\00:43:52.26
There are some
mutations but it's epigenetics.
00:43:52.66\00:43:55.46
And dogs... Since
this happened so fast
00:43:55.66\00:44:01.40
all that potential genetics
00:44:01.60\00:44:03.81
had to have been there
from the beginning. Yes.
00:44:04.01\00:44:06.14
So I think God made
wolves with dogs in mind.
00:44:06.34\00:44:10.65
He knew we would need
protection and companionship
00:44:10.85\00:44:14.15
and a lot of things. And
there's no... as far as I know
00:44:14.35\00:44:16.38
there is no other animal
that is anywhere near that
00:44:16.58\00:44:17.92
much genetic diversity. Hmm.
00:44:18.12\00:44:20.29
So I would suggest
00:44:20.49\00:44:21.82
that the only
evolution that happens
00:44:21.96\00:44:23.29
is evolution within the
potential that God made... put
00:44:23.43\00:44:26.16
into each creature
from the beginning.
00:44:26.36\00:44:28.50
We have a neighbor who
has bought a "poodle. "
00:44:28.70\00:44:32.47
It's a combination
between a cocker spaniel
00:44:32.87\00:44:35.80
and a poodle.
Um-hmm. It's still a dog
00:44:36.00\00:44:37.91
but they've interbred the
dogs to start a new breed.
00:44:38.11\00:44:42.38
Yeah. It's still a dog.
00:44:42.58\00:44:44.31
We were talking about there's
philosophy and there's science.
00:44:44.71\00:44:48.18
Right? What
controls conclusions?
00:44:48.38\00:44:51.55
You've got a thought on
that. Tell us about that.
00:44:51.75\00:44:53.72
Well, it depends on what
field you're working with
00:44:54.12\00:44:58.29
quite a bit. If you're
doing chemistry experiments
00:44:58.49\00:45:01.16
in your laboratory,
00:45:01.36\00:45:02.96
the conclusions you
come to probably won't matter
00:45:05.97\00:45:08.74
whether you
believe in God or not.
00:45:08.94\00:45:10.27
OK. But if you're
studying ancient history,
00:45:10.34\00:45:12.34
how things came to be -
00:45:12.54\00:45:13.88
geological history,
biological history -
00:45:13.98\00:45:15.71
we're studying things
that happened sometime in the
00:45:15.91\00:45:18.05
distant past or we think
happened in the distant past
00:45:18.25\00:45:20.42
and there you've got a
real problem because we cannot
00:45:20.62\00:45:23.45
go back and see -
hmm - what's happened?
00:45:23.69\00:45:25.75
If we're studying an
animal in a laboratory,
00:45:25.95\00:45:27.32
we can observe it
and see what's happening
00:45:27.52\00:45:29.86
and you know do
experiments over and over.
00:45:30.06\00:45:31.79
If you're studying
history, you can't do that.
00:45:31.99\00:45:34.80
You can't go back and
so there is a problem.
00:45:35.00\00:45:36.63
And so it's my observation that
00:45:37.03\00:45:40.27
in the study of history -
geologic history, biological
00:45:41.17\00:45:44.77
history, fossils -
00:45:44.97\00:45:46.51
your conclusions depend
much more on your assumptions,
00:45:48.04\00:45:51.68
on your philosophy.
00:45:51.88\00:45:53.21
On your beliefs. Most
people don't understand
00:45:53.25\00:45:57.75
that in those areas
assumptions can absolutely
00:45:57.95\00:46:01.32
control what conclusions
you are able to reach...
00:46:01.52\00:46:04.39
you are willing to reach.
00:46:04.59\00:46:05.93
Hmm. And so that
makes a very big difference
00:46:06.03\00:46:07.96
in the study of history. I
like the thought that you said:
00:46:08.16\00:46:10.40
"are willing to reach. "
00:46:10.60\00:46:12.73
And so that's very important.
00:46:13.03\00:46:14.60
Um-hmm. Now you're an
author of quite a few books.
00:46:14.80\00:46:17.94
Um-hmm. I thought maybe
you could just mention to us?
00:46:18.14\00:46:20.91
I know there's one you just
mentioned that's going to be
00:46:21.11\00:46:23.61
released. Tell us a
little bit about that book:
00:46:23.81\00:46:25.18
the new one, the new
book that you just authored
00:46:25.38\00:46:28.15
and is going to be published.
OK. The one that's going to be
00:46:28.68\00:46:32.45
published soon is a book
for kids, for children. OK.
00:46:32.65\00:46:37.83
In fact, this morning I
was reading through this
00:46:38.03\00:46:41.63
the... what do you? the
copy for that... manuscript.
00:46:41.83\00:46:45.60
OK. They're about ready
to send it to the press.
00:46:45.80\00:46:48.20
But anyway, for
years I've given a talk
00:46:48.40\00:46:51.91
once a month to
Junior Sabbath School
00:46:52.11\00:46:55.34
telling stories.
These are younger kids?
00:46:55.54\00:46:57.18
Yeah, the 5th, 6th graders. OK.
00:46:57.38\00:47:00.45
And this led to my starting
to write the gospel in stories.
00:47:00.65\00:47:04.95
OK. Part of it deals with
creation. Part of it is just
00:47:05.15\00:47:07.52
what is the gospel, and
how can we explain it to kids?
00:47:07.72\00:47:10.49
With stories. And so
that book is going to come out
00:47:10.69\00:47:13.46
I don't know, in the next
couple of months I suppose.
00:47:13.66\00:47:16.53
And what's it called?
What's the title of it?
00:47:16.73\00:47:18.57
Probably it's going to be
called God, Science, Friends
00:47:19.53\00:47:23.07
and then there's a
subtitle which I don't remember
00:47:23.27\00:47:24.97
what they've
given it? But anyway...
00:47:25.17\00:47:26.88
Then there's another
one that just was published.
00:47:27.64\00:47:29.58
It's called Creation? Really?
00:47:31.05\00:47:36.52
And this one I wanted
to think how to communicate
00:47:36.72\00:47:41.26
some of this
creation/evolution material
00:47:41.46\00:47:44.09
to people who might not
read our other material. OK.
00:47:44.29\00:47:48.03
So I came up with... I
guess God gave me the idea
00:47:48.23\00:47:50.40
of writing it as a conversation.
00:47:50.60\00:47:52.10
Um-hmm. So this
book is a conversation
00:47:52.30\00:47:54.17
between two people: a
creationist and one who
00:47:54.37\00:47:56.87
doesn't believe at all.
00:47:57.07\00:47:58.41
And they're talking
about these issues, and they...
00:47:58.47\00:48:01.14
They're on a long research
trip and they're talking.
00:48:01.34\00:48:04.55
And so it introduces
it as a conversation.
00:48:04.75\00:48:07.78
And people who read a
copy of this tell me that
00:48:07.98\00:48:11.02
when they started reading
they read the whole thing
00:48:11.22\00:48:14.06
in one sitting. So apparently
it does get people's attention.
00:48:14.26\00:48:17.73
They didn't want to
put the conversation down.
00:48:17.93\00:48:19.33
So which one ends
up being accepted?
00:48:19.53\00:48:22.36
No... you've got
to read the book!
00:48:22.56\00:48:24.07
Yeah, you've gotta read it.
They don't... neither of them
00:48:24.27\00:48:27.30
change their mind but it's
a very fruitful conversation.
00:48:27.50\00:48:30.44
They end up friends at the end
like they were at the beginning.
00:48:30.64\00:48:33.71
There's a lot of
questions that come up.
00:48:33.91\00:48:35.24
Oh yes, yes. Hmm.
00:48:35.41\00:48:37.05
There's several others.
The biggest one I've written
00:48:37.25\00:48:40.55
is a book about that thick.
00:48:40.75\00:48:42.28
It's called Faith,
Reason, & Earth History.
00:48:42.48\00:48:45.92
It's used as a textbook
00:48:46.32\00:48:48.26
in a lot of Christian schools.
00:48:48.46\00:48:50.33
And you wrote that
with Arthur Chadwick?
00:48:50.53\00:48:52.49
The third edition was with
Art Chadwick as a co-author.
00:48:52.69\00:48:55.53
But it's Faith,
Reason, & Earth History.
00:48:55.73\00:48:58.80
Yes. Where do you get that from?
00:48:59.00\00:49:00.34
What's your source
for all that information?
00:49:00.47\00:49:02.80
Well, for 40-some years
I've been teaching a class
00:49:03.00\00:49:06.71
on the topic of
fossil science and origins.
00:49:06.91\00:49:12.11
OK. It goes through how
the science work was safe,
00:49:12.31\00:49:15.18
how they relate. And then
applying that to dealing with
00:49:15.38\00:49:18.09
biological questions and
geology and all the rest.
00:49:18.29\00:49:20.89
And I... There's wasn't
really a textbook to use.
00:49:21.09\00:49:23.36
There are a lot of good
books on specific topics
00:49:23.56\00:49:25.59
but I needed
something that was more overall
00:49:25.79\00:49:28.20
and I decided I'd
have to write it myself.
00:49:28.40\00:49:30.40
So that's where this came from.
00:49:30.60\00:49:31.93
OK. And it's available free?
00:49:32.13\00:49:34.30
Yes. You can buy a hard copy
00:49:34.50\00:49:37.81
but the church's
Faith and Science Council
00:49:38.01\00:49:41.54
has funded this,
and so you can download
00:49:41.74\00:49:44.65
a digital copy free
anywhere in the world.
00:49:44.85\00:49:47.92
And it's not just as a textbook.
00:49:48.32\00:49:50.92
It's very understandable
to an educated lay person.
00:49:51.12\00:49:53.72
Hmm. And also this
book Creation? Really?
00:49:53.92\00:49:57.29
I understand is now available
free as a digital copy...
00:49:57.49\00:50:00.50
digital copy as well.
00:50:00.70\00:50:02.03
You know, on the
cover of Creation? Really?
00:50:02.10\00:50:05.17
you have... there's a
drawing of Monument Valley. Yes.
00:50:05.37\00:50:09.84
We've been there. And
then on your other one
00:50:10.04\00:50:13.17
Faith, Reason, & Earth History
00:50:13.38\00:50:15.91
that's at the
Arches National Park.
00:50:16.11\00:50:19.98
Yeah. And we've
been there, too. Yes.
00:50:20.18\00:50:21.55
They're fantastic.
Wonderful material.
00:50:21.95\00:50:24.62
There are 2 others I mentioned.
00:50:24.82\00:50:26.49
There's one small one
with myself and Dick Davidson,
00:50:26.89\00:50:29.86
a theologian, that's
called Choose Ye This Day:
00:50:30.06\00:50:31.99
why it matters what
you believe about creation.
00:50:32.19\00:50:35.06
Um-hmm. So we
found that very fruitful.
00:50:35.26\00:50:37.47
And there's another one
about Ellen White called
00:50:37.67\00:50:39.57
A Prophet and Her Critics.
00:50:39.77\00:50:41.10
It's with an
Australian physician
00:50:41.34\00:50:43.14
Don McMahon looking at
those who criticize Ellen White
00:50:43.34\00:50:48.08
and then some new data
that supports her material being
00:50:48.28\00:50:52.71
real and not copies.
00:50:52.91\00:50:54.35
Wow! Very good! I
mention one other thing.
00:50:54.55\00:50:56.89
I work at Loma Linda University,
and this is the only place
00:50:57.09\00:51:00.56
in the world where a
student can get a Ph.D.
00:51:00.76\00:51:03.19
in biology or geology
and study under a faculty
00:51:03.39\00:51:05.39
who believe the Bible.
00:51:05.59\00:51:06.93
Hmm! The ONLY
place in the world.
00:51:06.96\00:51:08.53
Is that right? We have really
wonderful graduate students
00:51:08.73\00:51:11.37
that are coming out. Ah!
00:51:11.57\00:51:12.90
So if anybody wants
to do their Ph.D. in...
00:51:12.93\00:51:15.07
in those sorts
of sciences - yes -
00:51:15.27\00:51:17.24
consider Loma Linda.
That's the place to go?
00:51:17.44\00:51:19.74
You can study under a faculty
who believe in the Bible.
00:51:19.94\00:51:22.01
Let me ask you this question:
00:51:22.21\00:51:23.95
can a creationist
be a good scientist?
00:51:24.15\00:51:28.32
Absolutely! If we had several
hours we could talk about that.
00:51:28.52\00:51:32.12
But some of us have been
doing scientific research
00:51:32.32\00:51:35.72
and publishing in professional
literature for decades.
00:51:35.92\00:51:38.43
And so the idea that a creation-
ist cannot be a good scientist
00:51:38.93\00:51:42.56
is simply demonstrably false.
00:51:42.76\00:51:44.73
Yes. I agree with
you because I think that
00:51:45.70\00:51:48.44
understanding the Bible and
the Creator of this universe
00:51:48.94\00:51:54.78
and this planet and
everything associated with it
00:51:54.98\00:51:57.65
is the best way to get a
broad view and understanding.
00:51:57.85\00:52:01.78
That's the way I see it.
00:52:01.98\00:52:03.65
Yeah. It must give you an edge.
00:52:03.85\00:52:06.69
Yeah, it actually
does. In understanding.
00:52:06.89\00:52:08.96
We understand how they think;
00:52:09.36\00:52:11.39
we understand how we think;
00:52:11.59\00:52:12.93
and we're always
comparing the two.
00:52:12.96\00:52:14.30
And some of these
books go through a series
00:52:14.36\00:52:16.67
of those research
projects. All right... OK.
00:52:16.87\00:52:20.10
We're talking
with Dr. Leonard Brand.
00:52:20.30\00:52:22.44
And I'm sure that what
you're hearing I would think
00:52:22.64\00:52:26.37
has encouraged me to
understand more closely
00:52:26.57\00:52:29.68
that we are "fearfully
and wonderfully made. "
00:52:29.88\00:52:31.91
We just didn't happen by chance.
00:52:32.11\00:52:33.88
And you know, we want to thank
you, those who are supporting
00:52:34.38\00:52:37.25
3ABN. And we
have an address roll
00:52:37.45\00:52:39.99
that if you want to do
this and you want to continue
00:52:40.19\00:52:42.56
to do so that we can
make programs like it
00:52:42.76\00:52:44.96
if you have any
thoughts or comments
00:52:45.16\00:52:47.53
regarding what is being
said here you can write to us
00:52:47.73\00:52:52.50
and contact us at this address:
00:52:52.70\00:52:54.07
Thank you for all you do
00:53:49.29\00:53:50.63
to help us light the world
with the glory of God's truth.
00:53:50.73\00:53:53.60
I hope you've
written those details down
00:53:56.26\00:53:57.93
but we also have an e-mail
address for Dr. Leonard Brand
00:53:58.13\00:54:02.04
if you would like to contact him
00:54:02.24\00:54:03.57
with any questions
that you might have
00:54:03.64\00:54:05.07
about what he's been talking on.
00:54:05.27\00:54:06.84
And for his
e-mail address, it is
00:54:07.24\00:54:09.14
Now the LLU is
Loma Linda University.
00:54:17.69\00:54:20.99
So you can contact him
00:54:26.39\00:54:27.73
and he's happy to
answer your questions.
00:54:27.76\00:54:29.10
But I have got a question for
you that I want you to answer.
00:54:29.73\00:54:32.87
What about theistic evolution?
00:54:33.27\00:54:35.90
We hear a lot about
that from creationists...
00:54:36.10\00:54:38.57
well, they're
supposed to be creationists.
00:54:38.77\00:54:42.08
They believe that
God is the Creator
00:54:42.28\00:54:44.51
but He created
over millions of years
00:54:44.71\00:54:48.08
and that death took place
before man was created, etc.
00:54:48.28\00:54:52.75
Well, my finding is
that people who believe this
00:54:53.15\00:54:57.16
generally, believe it because
00:54:57.36\00:54:58.69
they think science
has proven evolution
00:54:58.83\00:55:01.03
and they have to deal with this.
00:55:01.23\00:55:02.56
Well from what we've
talked about here earlier
00:55:02.93\00:55:04.93
it helps to explain that that's
becoming less and less true.
00:55:05.13\00:55:09.24
Evolution - Darwin's
theory - simply does not work.
00:55:09.44\00:55:11.97
There are prominent
scientists who understand that.
00:55:12.37\00:55:15.34
So why would I want
to hold up this theory
00:55:15.74\00:55:19.11
that doesn't work? Hmm.
I mean, do I have to put
00:55:19.31\00:55:21.28
God is there to
somehow help it work?
00:55:21.48\00:55:23.69
Well, it's becoming
less and less reason
00:55:23.89\00:55:27.56
to consider theistic evolution.
00:55:27.76\00:55:29.92
And of course, there's a
whole lot of other things, too.
00:55:30.33\00:55:33.19
Theologically how can you
take theistic evolution if...
00:55:33.40\00:55:36.77
If God created by evolution,
then He designed the system
00:55:36.97\00:55:42.84
that has produced
death and suffering for eons.
00:55:43.04\00:55:46.37
So, and there's many
other theological reasons why
00:55:46.84\00:55:49.24
it really doesn't work.
00:55:49.44\00:55:50.78
Right, 'cause one thing
I read from one of their
00:55:50.81\00:55:53.92
sites, some of the
scientists who say it,
00:55:54.12\00:55:57.25
is that in the animal
kingdom there was death
00:55:57.45\00:56:01.19
before there was a human being
00:56:01.39\00:56:03.39
because otherwise the
world would have been overrun by
00:56:03.59\00:56:05.69
animals over all
those millions of years
00:56:05.89\00:56:08.06
between them
being created and man.
00:56:08.26\00:56:11.73
And so there had to be
death among the animals
00:56:12.40\00:56:15.70
but death only came
to man when man sinned.
00:56:15.90\00:56:19.17
It doesn't even make sense.
00:56:19.37\00:56:20.74
Well, and a lot of
that depends on the belief
00:56:20.94\00:56:24.05
that geology has
demonstrated long ages.
00:56:24.25\00:56:26.31
We don't
understand that the answer for
00:56:26.51\00:56:29.12
the explanation
for radiometric dates.
00:56:29.32\00:56:30.89
But if we had time, there's
a whole lot of other things
00:56:31.09\00:56:33.19
in geology - things kind
of really being understood
00:56:33.39\00:56:36.06
better now - that don't...
that just contradict those
00:56:36.26\00:56:39.66
long ages. Hmm!
So there are many new
00:56:39.86\00:56:42.46
understandings of
geology and fossils
00:56:42.66\00:56:44.60
that say: "No,
that doesn't work. "
00:56:44.80\00:56:47.47
"The long ages
probably don't work at all. "
00:56:47.67\00:56:49.57
And so there is
less and less reason
00:56:50.37\00:56:52.14
to consider theistic evolution.
00:56:52.34\00:56:54.11
Hmm. So then why is it that
people actually don't understand
00:56:54.31\00:56:57.55
radiometric dating?
00:56:57.71\00:56:59.41
It's a complex thing
and we don't have a way
00:56:59.61\00:57:01.98
to get... They're dating things
from way in the distant past
00:57:02.18\00:57:06.65
so we can't observe it. And
so it's hard to come up with
00:57:06.86\00:57:09.12
an answer to that.
00:57:09.32\00:57:10.66
In biology, you've got
living things you can study
00:57:10.73\00:57:12.56
all the time. Yes.
00:57:12.76\00:57:14.10
Studying things
like radiometric dating
00:57:14.13\00:57:15.73
we can't observe all the
processes through the ages.
00:57:15.93\00:57:19.00
And so it's difficult
to get the answers we need.
00:57:19.20\00:57:22.90
Hmm... very good.
00:57:23.30\00:57:24.77
I like to think, Dr.
Leonard, that we were made.
00:57:24.97\00:57:27.91
We have a purpose
and a reason to exist.
00:57:28.11\00:57:30.91
You know, the
Bible reveals that to us:
00:57:31.11\00:57:33.01
that this life is
not the only life.
00:57:33.42\00:57:35.85
There is a life after this one.
00:57:36.05\00:57:37.52
And we have to understand
that God wants us to accept
00:57:37.72\00:57:40.86
what He says as the truth.
00:57:41.06\00:57:42.39
So until we meet you next time
00:57:42.59\00:57:44.06
may God richly bless you
00:57:44.26\00:57:45.63
and keep you well.
00:57:45.83\00:57:47.16