Participants:
Series Code: NOW
Program Code: NOW019005A
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00:16 This is 3ABN Now with John and Rosemary Malkiewycz.
00:21 Hello and welcome to 3ABN Now. 00:23 3ABN Television Network goes all around the world. 00:29 And we are very happy to have someone in the studio 00:31 that comes from India. So if you are watching in India 00:35 a special welcome to all of you there. 00:37 And I know that the story that we're going to hear today 00:41 will impact many people's lives. 00:43 And you know, Dever Kujur... you are from India. 00:46 Thank you for coming on the program. We are very happy 00:49 to have you here. Thank you very much. 00:52 You know, what's interesting is 00:54 as Christian parents we have a great desire 00:58 to see our children follow the faith, follow the Bible, 01:01 follow God, follow Jesus... 01:03 to be with them in the kingdom of heaven. 01:05 And I know that the story today is a testimony 01:09 from Dever that will I'm sure help many people... 01:13 especially young people. Espe- cially those who are brought up 01:16 in Christian homes where it's expected that they will follow. 01:19 But we don't really know what's going on in their hearts. 01:22 We THINK we do... but as we'll see from this 01:25 testimony, God led Dever through a journey where 01:29 he discovered God at a later age 01:31 even though he grew up in a Christian home. 01:33 So Dever: you know this is going to be an interesting story. 01:37 I know that your testimony is a powerful one 01:40 and so we are looking forward to hearing it. 01:42 But before we do you've chosen a text. 01:46 I'm going to get Rosemary to read it - um-hmm - 01:48 then you can tell us about it. 01:49 It's from I John 3:16 01:53 and it says: 01:54 "Hereby perceive we the love of God 01:57 because He laid down His life for us 02:01 and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. " 02:05 So Dever, tell me: what is it that's especially... 02:10 what makes that special to your heart? 02:14 This Bible verse is very special to me 02:17 because Jesus Christ laid down His life for me 02:21 and for the rest of humanity. 02:24 But I like the last line. 02:26 That we also should lay down our life for our brother 02:32 and sister... whether he's a Hindu, Muslim, Christian... 02:35 whoever. We have to learn that we need to serve 02:40 others, and that really struck me. 02:44 Usually I always think: "Yes, Jesus has laid down His life 02:48 for me" but what am I going to do? 02:53 Just sit back? NO! I need to be a witness. 02:58 I need to give a service to others. 03:02 And therefore that really impressed me. 03:05 Hmm. I like it how Jesus came to this earth and He was a servant. 03:11 And so, you know, that's a concept that we have to 03:14 deal with: that we need to be helping other people. 03:17 In many ways. It could be health. It could be in many many 03:20 ways: their spiritual walk... even their finances. 03:23 Even providing for people who are starving, 03:26 don't have clothing. 03:28 Who are sick or in prison... all those sorts of aspects. 03:30 That's what Jesus calls us to do as well. 03:33 Yes. Hmm. Laying down our lives in any way 03:36 that we need to. Not necessarily dying 03:39 but laying down our own rights even sometimes 03:44 or our own wants to do for other people who are needy. 03:49 True, because many are living for themselves today. 03:54 And therefore... I mean this world is a selfish world. 03:58 Everyone is working for themselves 04:01 amassing money, fame, riches. 04:05 But then when you look at the life of Jesus Christ... 04:09 He was poor; He left His high command - 04:13 um-hmm - and came to this world. 04:15 He became poor but we became rich... spiritually rich. 04:19 Yes. And therefore I looked at my life 04:21 and I said: "I need to serve others. " 04:24 All around the world. Not only in India 04:27 but even now in Australia I need to continue 04:31 that service for humanity. 04:34 And you know what it was like to live a life of wanting to 04:38 basically serve yourself. 04:41 To be famous and to do extremely well 04:47 above other people. 04:49 So we're going to listen to your testimony, which 04:52 I found REALLY interesting. 04:54 So let's start. Tell us about your family, your background. 04:58 I am brought up in a Seventh-day Adventist family. 05:02 I have an elder sister. We are only two of us in the family. 05:06 A very close-knitted family. 05:09 Um-hmm. Every day we have morning worship, 05:12 evening worship. Every Sabbath Day we go to church. 05:17 But really, I didn't find any meaning in it. 05:23 Hmm. I was feeling that I was like a robot. 05:28 "Oh yes, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist. " "Why? " 05:31 "Because my parents are Seventh-day Adventist. 05:34 That's why I am a Seventh-day Adventist. " 05:36 And that's not a good reason. 05:39 That's right. I really did not experience the Lord - 05:43 hmm - but it was more or less like a duty. 05:47 And over time I began to get tired of 05:51 this monotonous schedule 05:55 and therefore I began to search the Lord. 05:59 You know, just going back a bit. So you had Adventist parents. 06:04 Yes. They were working in the work in the church. Sure. 06:08 And you were at home. You went to a Christian school? 06:12 Yes. You went through school in your early years. Yes. 06:16 And you had all the training. Yes! 06:20 And yet there was something missing. Is that right? 06:23 Yes. I had all the ingredients. 06:25 I was there in the set up, but I didn't come close to the Lord. 06:31 So did your mom and dad see you as a "good boy? " 06:34 A good little boy? Oh, yes! 06:35 Outwardly I was like a saint. Oh! 06:40 But I really did not find the Lord. 06:44 You didn't know Him for yourself. 06:46 Had anybody approached you to 06:51 introduce you to Him even though you were a youth in the church? 06:55 You know? By doing Bible studies with you? 06:58 By trying to teach you 07:00 about having a relationship with Jesus? Or was it just 07:04 the basics that you needed to know? 07:07 I had the basics, right? There were Bible studies. 07:11 We had camping. So many activities we had. 07:16 But really... So you were busy "doing. " 07:19 Yes, I was busy doing all these things. 07:21 Hmm. But... I was really not convinced 07:25 why I am a Seventh-day Adventist. 07:28 Hmm. So therefore I went in another direction 07:33 which I will share with you in a few minutes from now. 07:37 I think there's a lot of young people in churches - 07:40 not just Adventists but in a lot of churches - 07:43 who are there for the same reasons that you have said. 07:47 And they're going through the motions - true - 07:51 because it's the right thing to do - yes - 07:54 and because their family is doing it or their friends 07:57 are doing it - yes - but they have no connection with 08:02 God themselves. That's true. It's an important Bible teaching 08:06 that you honor your father and your mother. 08:08 And I think as children get to the age... 08:11 You know, while they're young 08:13 they should be listening to their mom and dad. 08:15 And when I say young, you know, Jesus was 12 years old - 08:18 when He began - yes - His ministry. 08:21 But up unto that time He was listening to His parents. 08:25 And I think it's important that, you know, children understand 08:29 they are not parents until they get older. 08:31 But when you get older you do do make decisions for yourself. 08:34 So it's good to follow the counsel and direction 08:37 of mom and dad. And what you did was right, 08:39 but there's that other part that you have to decide. 08:42 Yes. In fact, if you look at obedience. 08:45 Obedience is based on love. Hmm. 08:49 I mean, yes... I obeyed my parents 08:51 but was it from a willing heart? 08:55 Hmm. Because obedience is based on love. 08:58 Um-hmm. And I had not discovered that love 09:01 and therefore inwardly I was actually a rebel. 09:05 Hmm! And therefore when you look at life 09:09 there are 5 things that drive life today 09:13 and even in my days. 09:15 So I think it's: riches, power, 09:19 fame, pleasure, and ease of life. 09:24 Hmm. These are the five things that drive life today. 09:28 Hmm. And therefore for me I wanted to be rich. 09:33 I wanted to be famous. 09:35 Everyone should look at me in this world. 09:38 If I should land in Melbourne City, 09:40 oh, a crowd should be around me. "Here comes Kujur. " 09:44 Yes. Seeking for my autograph or my signature. 09:48 You know, it gives that temporary satisfaction - 09:52 yes - so I decide for that. Only temporary. 09:55 Yes. And then of course power comes in. 09:58 Hmm. Of course pleasure and ease of life. 10:03 Hmm. So that really drives life today. 10:06 Very good. Now as a young person 10:08 your parents were working for the church? 10:11 Yes. You had an uncle 10:15 who was very high up in the church in India. 10:21 What was his job? 10:23 He was the president. Of the? Of the division. 10:28 Of the Southern Asia? Yes, Southern Asia Division. 10:31 So he was the "top dog" there as they say. 10:34 Yes, he was the "top dog" there, and we had to 10:37 really put a life in order. 10:41 If not, he would be at stake. 10:44 But did you put your life in order? 10:46 I did not... but I tried to keep a low profile. 10:52 So OK then, tell us some of the things that you were up to 10:56 as a young person. I remember you mentioning 10:59 to us prior to the interview 11:02 that you were involved in music. 11:05 That came later, but maybe I will begin this way. 11:09 After my high school in India 11:12 I wanted to be a commercial pilot. Um-hmm. 11:17 Now in India there's a lot of competition. 11:20 Hmm. But because I come from a tribe 11:25 where the government gives certain quota 11:28 where I can get into that institution - um-hmm - 11:31 I took the privilege of trying to get into this aviation 11:37 institution. So I secured 11:42 that quota and I was ready to plunge in. 11:46 The first two years you will be trained by the... 11:49 by the Air Force of India. 11:52 And in the third year you can select either for the Air Force 11:56 or for the commercial flying. 11:58 I was opting for the commercial flying because I like to go 12:01 around the world and I want to be rich. 12:03 Um-hmm. I want to be famous. 12:05 I want to be powerful. You know, that's my goal. 12:09 So news went to my uncle, and my dad and my mom 12:15 used to work in the organization. Um-hmm. 12:18 And so my uncle had a serious talk with them. 12:21 "I mean your son can't do this. " 12:24 "What would the church people say? " 12:27 "My nephew has gone into the world. " 12:31 So my parents talked to me 12:33 and I said: "Oh, this can't work because 12:37 where will the money come? It will come from my parents. " 12:40 And my parents are telling me now: "This is not the right 12:43 direction. " So I said: "OK, let's give up. " 12:48 But I was really upset 12:51 because I wanted to reach my goal. 12:54 And so that was after high school. Um-hmm. 12:58 And after that I joined 13:03 a college. But really I didn't like being in the college. 13:09 And that was an Adventist college. 13:11 And what were you studying? 13:13 I was just studying for the sake of studying. 13:16 So I took up... I was interested in biology. 13:20 Right. And, of course, physics, 13:23 mathematics. So all that I took. 13:27 But I really did not want to be in that college. 13:32 So I created a situation 13:34 that I can flee from the college. 13:38 You hatched a plan. 13:40 I hatched a plan, a secret agenda, that only my sister 13:44 knew about it. And she said: "OK, if that is 13:48 your wish better you leave then. " 13:53 And so I left the college. 13:55 And now I was not in college. No studies. 13:58 And then there was a person 14:02 who saw some of my drawings. 14:05 By the way, I am a born artist. 14:07 Yes. So he had a look. He said: "Wow! 14:10 You are really good in designing automobiles. " 14:16 I said: "Yes... but in India we don't have 14:18 any institution that can really train me. " 14:22 Because in that time there was no good automobile industry 14:28 in India. We just had one company 14:32 that made the Ambassador. Um-hmm. 14:36 So that company mushroomed out from the British company 14:40 called Morris Minor. 14:42 OK. Because the Britishers had colonized India. Yes. 14:47 So we just had one automobile company. 14:51 And each time I looked at that car 14:54 it brought sadness to my face. 14:56 No design... nothing. 15:00 It just takes you from A to B - um-hmm - but nothing to look at. 15:06 So I said: "Well, the opportunities in India 15:08 are very low. " So this man told me 15:12 "Don't worry... give me your portfolio. 15:16 Make some good car designs 15:19 and I know a person in Japan 15:22 who will be interested? " 15:26 And in those days Japan was good in cars. 15:29 Um-hmm. A lot of companies in Japan. 15:32 I said: "Wow! That's good! " 15:34 So I made my portfolio 15:36 and the owner of that institu- tion or the company in Japan 15:42 was very interested. 15:45 He said: "Yes, the fee for this much 15:47 you have to pay every semester. 15:51 And you can come and stay at the company and work for us. " 15:57 But I wrote him back 16:00 that I'm not a rich person. Now he's talking about yen 16:04 and dollars. Umm! And in India we talk about rupees. 16:08 No match. Yeah, I know. 16:12 So I said: "Oh another obstacle. I can't reach my goal. " 16:15 Um-hmm. So then I wrote back to him and said: 16:19 "I will not be able to come because of the fees. " 16:24 And then he wrote back to me and said: 16:26 "No problem. Everything will be free for you. " 16:31 Hmm! "Just come to Japan, but you need to learn Japanese. " 16:36 I said: "OK, I'm going to learn Japanese! " 16:40 That's not an easy task! 16:42 No, it's not an easy task but there are still some traces of 16:45 Japanese language in me. Like if you say: "How are you? " 16:49 "Oh-GEN-kee deska. " 16:50 Hai. Genkee des... that's something: genkee des. 16:53 That means I'm fine. 16:54 So I say: "Konnichiwa" you know what I'm saying? 16:58 Yes! "Arigatou gozaimasu. " 17:01 So I had a great interest because remember: I needed to 17:05 reach my goal. So I would do anything in life 17:09 and therefore I got in touch with a Japanese lady 17:14 in the Embassy in India. 17:17 She said: "OK, you can come to my home 17:21 and I will personally teach you Japanese. " 17:24 Hmm! I said: "Wow! That's a good privilege. " 17:27 It is! Yeah. So I used to go regularly. 17:31 And I loved that language. How hard it may be 17:34 but remember: at the back of my mind 17:37 I need to reach my goal. 17:39 Um-hmm. So that really drove me. 17:43 And therefore after a few months after I learned that language 17:46 I was ready to go to Japan. 17:49 Now did you learn just conver- sational? Or did you learn 17:52 to read and write? I learned just conversational 17:57 so that I can move about in Japan. 17:59 And at the same time I was learning the script. 18:02 Katakana and Hiragan. Yes. 18:05 And then they have the Chinese characters. 18:07 Yes. Very complicated. Very complicated 18:09 but they are all pictures. And I being an artist 18:12 I used to look at those alphabets and say: "Wow! 18:15 that looks like a house. " "Oh, that looks like a fish. " 18:17 Those are very picturesque. 18:21 So therefore after I finished all that 18:24 I needed to apply for the visa. 18:28 So I turned in my papers 18:31 filled out with the Consulate lady. 18:34 And then she said: "Yes, we have submitted your paper. 18:38 You have to wait say for a month. " 18:43 So those were anxious moments in my life. 18:47 So I waited patiently. 18:50 And then the day came when I had to go to the Embassy 18:53 and receive my visa. So I went to the Embassy. 18:59 I got my passport. I went and looked... 19:03 There was no visa. Hmm! I was shocked. 19:07 That means you can't go. Yes! 19:09 I can't go. And I wrote back to that person in Japan. 19:15 He was totally shocked. He said: "I am a millionaire. 19:20 I am in Japan and you didn't get a visa? " 19:26 I said: "Yes! " And you had the lady at the Consulate 19:29 helping you. Yes! I had the lady at the Consulate 19:32 helping me and I didn't get. 19:37 And I had a lot of question marks in my head. 19:40 Hmm. Where is God? 19:42 Why didn't He help me? 19:45 He did! Yes. You know, 19:48 Dever, I was thinking about your parents during this time. 19:52 Here is their son doing all this to leave and go to Japan. 19:58 What were they? Did they say anything to you? 20:01 They didn't say anything to me. If you look at 20:04 most parents in India, they want their children to progress - 20:08 um-hmm - in the world. 20:10 Even today when you look in India 20:12 most children are doing medicine 20:18 or engineering. There are only two careers 20:21 in India. Either you be a doctor 20:25 or you be an engineer. 20:27 OR in computer engineering. 20:30 Um-hmm. That's it, because you know it gives status 20:35 to the family. Um-hmm. "Oh, I have two children. 20:38 They are both doctors. " You know? 20:40 Hmm. So my parents would think: "Wow! OK... this is a new 20:45 field of study. But let him go to Japan; 20:49 let him make big. " 20:53 OK. I like that word "make big. " 20:54 Yes! 20:56 So therefore they really did not object me to go to Japan - 21:02 um-hmm - with the hope that I will find Jesus in Japan. 21:06 Um-hmm. Which would be very interesting! 21:11 But I knew I was going in another direction. 21:13 Yes, I would have gone to Japan. 21:15 OK. I would have married maybe a Japanese lady 21:18 and I would have settled there. 21:20 I would become famous because to be an automotive designer 21:24 whenever they have the auto show 21:28 I mean I always see a lot of people around the car. 21:31 They're looking at the car. 21:33 They think: "Who's the designer? " 21:34 You know they're not looking really at the engine. 21:37 First they look at the body... the outward appearance. 21:40 Uh-huh. So I said: "Oh, I'm going to be famous. " 21:44 So when I got the sad news 21:46 I said: "There is no God. " 21:49 Hmm. "God cannot exist. 21:52 He does not love me. " Do you think there were people 21:55 praying for you that you wouldn't get the visa? 21:58 I've never thought about that! 22:00 Maybe the uncle? I'm sure... 22:04 I think my parents would have prayed: 22:06 "What is Your will, Lord? Let it be done. " 22:09 Um-hmm. So I came back home disheartened. 22:13 Nothing to look forward. 22:15 I didn't want to go to college and do the degree course. 22:20 I didn't want to be a doctor because I said it's a very 22:23 boring profession. Oh, that's interesting! 22:26 Oh, yes... you only see SICK people. 22:30 Yes. And I didn't like the smell. 22:33 I wanted life. Uh-huh. 22:36 So therefore I didn't know what to do. 22:39 So I was at home just contemplating about life. 22:44 "What is the next step should I take? " 22:47 And then my mom comes into the room and says: 22:51 "Dever, I have news for you. " 22:54 And I was like: "What news 22:58 when everything is like over with me? " 23:02 She said: "I'm so happy you didn't go to Japan. " 23:05 I said: "Why? Why are you happy? " 23:08 "I mean, I'm sad; you're happy... but why? " 23:12 She said: "Look at the newspaper! " 23:14 And I said: "What's wrong with the newspaper? " 23:18 She said: "There was a big earthquake at Kobe. " 23:23 The place where I was supposed to go. 23:26 Umm. And then I began to connect the dots now. 23:31 Earthquake! Would I have survived or? 23:36 If you had gone to Japan, you would have been in that location 23:39 in that place where the earthquake was. Is that right? 23:41 Yes... that is very true. 23:44 And then I said: "Lord, You wanted to save my life 23:49 and therefore You didn't allow me to go there. " 23:54 For that few days and weeks 23:58 yes I was close to God but really did not find Him still. 24:02 Hmm. Then I began to think about my future now. 24:07 What next? What should I do? 24:10 And so my parents told me: "Son, in India if you need to 24:16 have a job you need to have a degree. 24:20 Whatever degree... whether it's in history, 24:22 whether it's in physics, whether it's in English, 24:25 whatever... you need to have a degree. " 24:29 So reluctantly I took a step forward 24:35 and I joined a college in the capitol city of India. 24:40 Um-hmm. So there I enrolled myself 24:45 and I decided to get into the media. 24:49 Remember... my goal to be what? Rich! 24:54 And famous. Famous! 24:56 So I decided to become a journalist 24:58 along with my classmates. 25:01 But I said: "No, I don't like to see text. 25:03 Only writing, reporting, and all that. 25:05 Interview the politicians and all that. 25:08 No... since I'm an artist I want to be a cartoonist. " 25:12 Um-hmm. Umm! 25:14 And at that time we had a very famous cartoonist. 25:17 His name is Laxman. Um-hmm. 25:20 He was working in that newspaper 25:22 firm where I was supposed to work. 25:26 I said: "Wow! That's it! That's nice now 25:29 to be with someone famous. " 25:31 This is like a step up, isn't it? 25:34 Oh, yes! On the route to fame. 25:36 Yes, on the route to fame and success. 25:39 You'll hold on to his fame for a bit. Yes! 25:41 So therefore after I finished my graduation 25:45 there was a cartoon competition all over India 25:51 because the company was look- ing for budding cartoonists. 25:55 Um-hmm. So they gave a competition. 25:59 So there were like 50,000 to 60,000 entries. 26:02 Really? Oh, there's a lot of people in India 26:05 so I've got to remember that, don't I? Yes! 26:08 So we have not touched the 1 billion mark 26:12 but I think it was around 700 million people. 26:14 Hmm. So everyone gave them the entries. 26:18 I gave mine. There were two sections that they gave us: 26:21 one to draw about social cartoons; 26:24 the other one is political but you can draw caricatures. 26:29 Um-hmm. So I was good in caricatures. 26:32 So always I blew up their face. You know, make it really funny. 26:36 So I did that, and I was surprised 26:39 that I won in both of the categories. 26:42 Oh! I said: "Oh, I'm going in the right direction! " 26:49 And so eventually the company asked me to fill out the forms 26:53 to join the company. And in the meantime 26:56 I worked for another magazine, It's called the Commerce Weekly, 27:02 just for me to get an orien- tation how the work will be. 27:06 And so I joined and I was very happy about it. 27:10 Now I'll stop here because before I go into the next 27:16 step of my conversion 27:19 meanwhile when I was in the job 27:23 I really enjoyed. Because in India, at least I can 27:27 talk for India, normally politi- cians are scared of journalists. 27:32 We can destroy them or build them. Yes. 27:35 That's how it goes... and I really loved that. 27:39 So I was a cartoonist but I was to go with my classmates. 27:42 I remember one incident we went to interview 27:46 a mullah in a mosque. 27:50 And I told my friend - my journalist friend - 27:54 "Be kind with him. These are Muslim people 27:58 and we are in the mosque. 28:00 Anything can take place. " He said: "Don't worry. 28:03 Even if we die it'll be in the paper. " 28:07 Nothing to fear! 28:10 And he went in there and I was really shocked 28:14 the way he destroyed that person - umm - 28:19 without fear. It made me to pain a bit. 28:26 Does Got want me to be like this? 28:30 To destroy people? 28:32 But always I would brush off the idea because my goals 28:35 are in front. To be famous and to be rich! 28:40 That was my goal. 28:43 So in the meantime... Let me go back to my college days. 28:49 When we were in college 28:52 there was what we call a music society 28:58 that was created in the college. 29:00 And the college always wanted to get a good name 29:04 for its... for its institution. 29:08 So we had the dramatic society 29:11 then we had the music society 29:14 and so on and forth. 29:16 So I was good in music, playing the keyboard and the guitar. 29:21 So then I joined the music society. 29:24 And I really liked this society, you know, 29:28 because again you're famous. Here is a band... 29:31 a rock band that I joined. 29:34 And whenever we walk up on stage we have bodyguards. 29:38 I felt very nice! Have people cheering? 29:41 Yes, we have people cheering. They knew our group. 29:44 You feel good? We feel good! 29:47 And we have the security and the police. They stand around 29:51 the stage, and when you are on stage you are someone now. 29:56 And we used to play all kinds of rock music. 30:02 And then the real show used to come on Friday night, 30:08 Saturday night. These are the two nights. 30:12 And my parents? Yes, they were praying for me 30:16 but they were not forcefully telling me: "Don't go. " 30:20 "If you go, we will do this, we will do that. " 30:22 They knew I would become more rebellious. 30:25 Umm. So Friday nights we used to go and play music... 30:31 rock music... till 11 or 12 in the night. 30:36 Now this band that you're talking about 30:38 Dever, was not just a backyard band, was it? 30:42 No, it was not a backyard band. We were the third best 30:45 rock band in India. Hmm! That's pretty good. 30:48 And when you think - it's like we were saying before - 30:50 the population of India and how many rock bands there must be. 30:53 Yes. That's pretty high! Yes, it's pretty high. 30:56 We really mastered the music that rock groups play 31:00 like - what you call it - like Black Sabbath. 31:04 Ian Gillan, and we really liked the rock group Scorpions. 31:10 Not a very good name, are they? Not a good name. 31:13 At that time the hit song was... I think it was? 31:18 I forget the group name but the song was 31:22 The Final Countdown - OK. When the Discovery, 31:26 that space shuttle, exploded in the sky - 31:29 umm - then they made the song. 31:32 OK. So we always started with that song. 31:34 All by Van Halen a song called Jump. 31:38 We would start with that. 31:40 So we were three Christians in this rock band. 31:44 Three along with others. How many altogether? 31:47 We were a five-member team. All right. 31:49 So two were Hindus; three were Christians. 31:53 Um-hmm. And then as we kept on playing all this music 31:56 and then we had a look at the lyrics 31:59 we said: "This is all anti Christ and we are Christians! " 32:04 Um-hmm. "Why are we playing this song? " 32:07 So you hadn't bothered to listen to the words before? 32:11 It was just a matter of playing the music? Yes. 32:12 Just the music. We liked the music 32:15 but we really didn't look at the words. 32:16 Because? You liked the prestige and the power and the music. 32:19 Yes, and the music. The thing is: we were not the lead singer. 32:24 I was the keyboardist 32:27 and the other Christian was the bass guitarist 32:30 and the lead guitarist was another Christian. 32:33 But the singer was not a Christian so it does not matter. 32:38 I am singing. The point is, though, 32:41 you're playing on a Friday night - yes - 32:44 and you're a Seventh-day Adventist. Yes. 32:46 So how did that work? 32:49 I didn't really bothered about it. Hmm. 32:53 Whether it's Wednesday or Friday night. Every day is same for me. 32:58 Yes, Sunday is a more quieter day 33:01 because in India on Sunday the shops are closed. 33:04 People are in their homes, so I only could really understand 33:08 Sunday... but the other days are all the same to me 33:10 because I was resisting the Holy Spirit. 33:13 That's true. I was fighting. That's true. 33:15 At times it bothered me 33:17 but I said: "I am here to make some money and to be famous. " 33:21 So what happened when you really started looking at the words? 33:25 What did you do? 33:26 We said: "We can't play these songs. " 33:29 We told the lead singer. He said: "Like what's wrong? 33:35 I mean, we have a crowd. We earn money 33:38 so what is your problem? " We said: "We are Christians 33:41 and we believe in Jesus Christ. " 33:44 But we really did not believe. 33:47 So we broke up from this band 33:50 and then we said: "OK, let us form another 33:55 group - another band group - 33:58 but it will be a Christian rock. " 34:01 So we had the good words, the good lyrics, 34:04 but the style of music was just the same. 34:07 Hmm. That's right. 34:09 So we really played for maybe for a few months. 34:13 The congregation of that church 34:17 really enjoyed, but what was the difference? 34:20 There was no difference. Hmm. 34:24 So eventually coming back to my work in the newspaper co. 34:30 eventually there was an offer for me to come to Australia. 34:35 Umm! I said: "Wow! OK... 34:39 that's a good idea: to come to Australia 34:41 and again, to make big. " Be famous! 34:46 Be famous; be rich. 34:49 Have pleasure and the ease of life. 34:52 That was my purpose in life. 34:54 If I had no purpose in life, I mean, then better to die. 34:58 So you had your degree and masters in design. 35:01 He had the degree. When did you get your masters? 35:05 That was way back I would say 35:08 in the 90's. Was that before you came to Australia? 35:12 Before I came to Australia. So I had my degrees; 35:15 I had my experience. Everything. Now I'm coming here 35:19 to a foreign country. And you've got cartooning 35:23 as part of your qualification and 3D graphics? 35:26 Yes. You're coming to Australia to make it big in media 35:29 in that area. Is that right? 35:30 Yes. To make it big over here. 35:33 In the meantime this later I came to know 35:36 not at that time my mother and another Australian lady 35:41 were praying for me. Hmm. 35:44 And working in the background? Working in the background. 35:46 Behind the scenes. They never told me that. 35:49 After many years they told me that. 35:52 So then I could connect the dots why I had to go to Australia. 35:57 So then they prayed and they said 36:04 "I think this is the best way 36:05 for Dever to come back to the Lord. " 36:10 So my mother came up to me and asked 36:13 "Would you be willing to apply for a visa to Australia? " 36:18 She knew I was disappointed with Japan so I said nothing. 36:21 "Why should I go abroad? Let me be in India and make it big 36:24 somewhere here only" 'cause I was upset. 36:28 And so my mother looked at me and I said: 36:32 "Yes, mom... I'll have a shot at it. I'll have a go at it. 36:36 I don't mind. " And she was so happy. 36:40 She went back to this Australian woman 36:42 and said "Yes! He said yes! " 36:44 "OK. Come on. Let's start! 36:46 Get the documents; get the invitation letter. 36:48 get the sponsorship letter. " Everything was done. 36:51 Ready. I submitted it at the Australian Embassy in New Delhi 36:58 and I was so happy. Yes, I'll leave India and go abroad. 37:02 And so I waited for a month 37:05 and then I went to pick up my passport. 37:08 And when I went to pick up my passport 37:11 I opened it. No visa. Again! 37:16 Same thing... second time. Yes... no visa... oh! 37:19 Now I know there's no God. 37:21 Not helping me. And I told my mom 37:24 "Yes... you must be praying for me. 37:27 But where? I didn't get the visa. " 37:30 So then few months went by 37:34 but my mother and that Australia lady said: "No, 37:37 let's go down on our knees. Let's pray again! " 37:42 So they prayed and they said: "Let... maybe, let Dever try 37:47 again for another time. " 37:52 My mom said: "No... he's so upset about it 37:55 he may not. " But the Australian lady said: "No. 37:59 Don't give up; try it. " 38:03 So my mom comes back - comes to my bedroom - 38:06 a bit nervous: "How to ask my son again? " 38:11 And she asked: "Son, would you like to apply 38:17 for an Australian visa the second time? " 38:20 I said: "OK, mom... nothing to lose. " 38:24 And she was going: "Whoa! " 38:27 Yeah... she was a big surprised. Wow! 38:31 So again all the work started again. 38:35 Got the invitation; got the sponsorship letter 38:38 from the same source in Australia 38:41 and then I applied. And after a month I went to the Embassy. 38:45 opened my passport. "Wow! The visa is there! " 38:51 I said: "Wow! Thank you, Lord. " 38:53 You know, good things are happening to me... 38:55 so I need to thank the Lord. Yes. 38:57 So my mom was very happy. I was happy. 39:01 Packed all my documents, all my degrees 39:05 and all that. Ready to go and not to come back. 39:10 So my mom was able to bear with that 39:13 because "at least my son has something in life to do. " 39:17 So I left and came to Australia. 39:20 But the agenda was like this: to put me in a pastor's home 39:25 up in Brisbane. So I landed in Brisbane 39:29 and I went to this pastor's home 39:33 and stayed with him and his family. 39:37 And every morning they have their worship 39:40 and every evening their worship. The usual thing 39:43 what all SDA families do. And what you used to 39:46 do in your family. Yes. I would cooperate 39:49 because I'm in a foreign land. 39:51 And you're staying in their home. I'm staying in their home. 39:54 But down deep I mean it's not interesting for me. 39:58 It's being polite, isn't it? Yes... it's being polite. 40:02 Very diplomatic. 40:05 So this went for a month 40:09 and then this pastor 40:12 was touching the chapter 2 of Daniel. 40:18 And he was talking about the European Union. 40:22 Now remember, when I was a cartoonist 40:25 working in the media I always had the desire 40:29 that Europe should be united. 40:31 Hmm. All those little countries in Europe: 40:35 why are they separated? 40:36 They should be united. 40:38 And I liked that idea very much. 40:41 Wow! That's interesting now. 40:45 This pastor is saying that the unification of Europe 40:49 is against God's divine plan. 40:52 Hmm. "How can that be? " I would say. 40:55 And I have never read that chapter. 40:58 Never tried to understand that chapter. 41:02 And THAT was a turning point in my life. 41:05 I said: "There must be something special in that black book" - 41:09 hmm - "that I missed all these years. " 41:13 You know, we have interviewed a lot of people 41:16 on this program, and the Bible chapter 41:22 that has affected the majority - the vast majority - 41:26 and has brought them to accept God 41:30 is Daniel chapter 2. It's a very powerful chapter. 41:35 Yes, it is a very powerful chapter. 41:37 And I said: "God is in control of this world! " 41:41 Hmm. "He places kings, leaders. He takes them away. " 41:46 And therefore I began to... And He knows the future. 41:50 Yes! He knows the future. 41:52 And therefore I began to take interest in opening my Bible 41:57 to read, and it was the first time. 42:00 Always I had a Bible with me but I never opened the Bible. 42:03 Hmm. It's always closed. 42:05 But I carry it to church... but never read it. 42:09 And this was the first time in my life that I began to study 42:13 the book of Daniel. 42:17 And I was saying: "It's amazing 42:21 to know a God who knows the future! " 42:25 Hmm. And I am only finite. 42:29 And I took great interest and the pastor was so happy. 42:34 He said: "Maybe he knows the strategy is working. " 42:39 So all this is going behind the scene because 42:42 they were communicating with my mother and with my father 42:45 how their son is progressing in the Lord. 42:49 Hmm. And eventually all my desire to be famous, 42:54 to be rich, to make it big in Australia came to zero. 43:00 I said: "No... I need to share 43:03 this message to my people in India" - 43:07 hmm - "and I am going back. " 43:10 So you discovered for yourself really 43:13 the God of the Bible - yes - and what He wants for humanity. 43:16 For each one of you and I. 43:18 So I would encourage you, too, that the book of Daniel 43:21 is a prophetic book telling exactly what's going to happen 43:27 in history right till this time we're living in now 43:30 and even to the future. 43:31 And when you discovered that there was this truth 43:35 in the Word of God it changed your life. Yes. 43:39 So much so that to make it big now is not really important, 43:43 is it? No, it's not important. 43:44 So there's a change going on - true - 43:47 in the direction we choose to life our life. 43:49 And that's what the Bible does: it gives us another view 43:53 to comprehend or to consider 43:55 to choose which way you're going to go in life. 43:59 And if you're young, the sooner you find that out 44:01 the better it is, isn't it? 44:03 Yes. When you start to 44:06 surrender to God, to accept Him who He is 44:09 and to understand Him and to love Him, 44:13 you have a change of attitude. 44:15 Yes. And a change of goal. True. 44:18 And that's what you were experiencing. 44:20 True. All your priorities that you had in the past 44:24 that are earthly, that are temporary just goes away. 44:29 Hmm. And therefore when I looked back 44:31 I said: "Why was I running for riches? 44:35 For power? For fame? For pleasure? Ease of life? " 44:41 "If I'm not going to die on this earth and to life forever 44:45 in sin, it's a different story. " 44:48 "But if it's going to be 70 years on this earth, 44:51 what am I doing with my life? " 44:53 That's a question I think we all have to look at 44:55 and answer because it does give direction as to what we do. 45:00 So it's very important. 45:02 Some find it out earlier, though, Dever. 45:04 Some find it out later. True. 45:06 And when we find out later we look back and say... 45:09 You know, you were brought up in a home where 45:12 they were trying to convey that to you - yes - 45:14 and yet it didn't happen, did it? 45:16 No, it didn't happen. How old were you when you came 45:19 to Australia? I was maybe 28. Twenty-eight? So... Yes. 45:26 So you're still pondering and then it took 28 years 45:30 to finally... for that light to switch on. 45:35 Yes. And that's good because 45:38 no matter how old you are God can switch the light on 45:41 if you just open up yourself to Him. 45:44 Well so here you are in Australia. You're working here. 45:49 You have now come to understand God. 45:52 How long were you actually in Australia? 45:54 Just for a few months. 45:55 In fact, the U-turn that I made 45:59 took place after a month after landing in Australia. 46:03 So I really didn't get into any company or whatever. 46:08 No. Hmm! 46:10 And so you now want to tell your people about Jesus. 46:15 Yes. So what'd you do? 46:17 Yes, so therefore I just wanted to share with you 46:20 another incident. When I look back at my life 46:23 had I died, I mean... That's it... curtains. That's it. 46:29 That's an important point. 46:31 Because I was a person who really liked speed. 46:35 Not the drug but to speed on the bike. 46:39 Yeah. Because I learned one thing what my parents told me. 46:43 My father always told me 46:45 "Don't be a loser in this world. " 46:47 Hmm. He said: "Son, 46:50 if you want to take drugs, you want to drink, 46:54 you want to have many girl- friends, bring them home. 46:57 Don't hide behind my back. " 46:59 Hmm. "But don't be a loser. " 47:02 "When you fall sick by smoking or drinking 47:06 don't come to me. So don't be a loser, son. " 47:10 Hmm. And therefore during my wayward life 47:13 never touched drugs, wine or smoking 47:18 or girlfriends. No. 47:20 But I was just a rebel. 47:22 Do everything opposite what the Lord wants me to do. 47:26 And because of this spirit 47:29 for 12 to 15 years I never stepped in the church. 47:34 Hmm. I stopped going to church 47:38 because I was a person that fought for justice. 47:44 When I looked how my dad and mom worked in the organization 47:50 I always looked at people who are working as holy men 47:54 in that time. They don't make mistakes. 47:57 And whenever something goes wrong in their workplace 48:01 I always say: "They have the Bible but they don't practice 48:05 so I think this religion is not correct. " 48:08 I had that attitude. Hmm. 48:10 So because of the injustice done to my parents 48:13 I decided to stop going to church. 48:17 What you were really looking for was an excuse. 48:20 True. You were trying to find something 48:23 that you could find... that was at fault - yes - 48:27 so you could justify your attitude - true - 48:31 of not wanting to be part of it. 48:33 So therefore I didn't go to church. 48:37 And in that period of time I used to have my friend's bike. 48:41 At that time he had a new Kawasaki bike. 48:44 Kawasaki? Yes. 48:46 Fast bike? Fast bike! 48:48 My parents would not buy me a bike. My father said: 48:52 "We love you so much, but if you buy a bike 48:54 you will kill yourself. " Do you know what I call 48:57 Australians who ride motor bikes? Temporary Australians. 49:01 That's the term they put for motorcycles. Yes. 49:04 True. So I had to sneak out of the house 49:07 to get my friend's bike. And one day I was driving 49:10 the bike very fast but at a turn. 49:15 And as I turned the next thing I saw 49:17 I was between the two wheels of a trailer truck. 49:21 Because I was at an angle 49:23 I ran in and I could see the chassis of the truck 49:27 next to my ear. And I looked back. I could see 49:30 these huge wheels behind me. 49:33 But I do not know how I just came out again. 49:36 So you slipped under and came out? 49:38 And came out but I didn't lose balance. 49:39 I was at the turn, and the trailer truck was also turning. 49:43 It's a long trailer truck. 49:46 So I went in, and the roads were not too even. 49:48 They were a bit bumpy. 49:50 So I bounced and went inside at an angle 49:53 and came out. And as I came back I said: 49:57 "It could only have been an angel 49:59 that could have drawn me out! " Brought you back. 50:01 If I died in that accident, I mean I would be a lost man. 50:07 Hmm. So as I played back my life I thanked the Lord: 50:11 "You had a purpose in my life what I should do. " 50:16 And part of that purpose was you went back to India. 50:20 Because we've got a couple of photos. Um-hmm. 50:23 And... You met a lady when you came back. 50:25 When you went back. Oh yes, yes! 50:27 I just want to jump to this bit and then we'll go back 50:31 again - yes - 'cause I don't want to miss it. 50:33 OK. You met somebody. What's her name? 50:37 Her name is Virginia. 50:40 So I met her through this Australian lady 50:43 in Australia. And there she is with you. 50:46 Oh, yes... there she is. 50:49 And then we have another photo, too, 50:51 with some family members. Yes! 50:54 That's my sister and her two sons. 50:57 She lives in Berrien Springs in America. 51:00 Hmm. That's our church in India 51:02 where we go to, and I'm the elder of that church. 51:05 And you can see Virginia is not a tall person. 51:08 Yes, not a tall person. She's little. 51:11 She's like my daughter-in-law. They're... 51:14 Good things come in small pack- ages my folks used to say. 51:18 Yes... she is little. 51:20 So the family in Australia 51:26 gave me the address to get in touch with her family. 51:31 And therefore when I went back to India 51:33 her brother was into ministry work. Um-hmm. 51:37 And we used to share a lot of things, and that's how 51:39 we got to know each other and eventually we got married. 51:44 That's a good point to take a break here because, 51:46 you know, if you're interested in what 3ABN's doing 51:51 and the stories that we're shar- ing with you and the testimonies 51:54 this organization is totally a non-profit organization. 51:58 It's based on your prayers and faith in God 52:02 that He will provide the money. And if you have been impressed 52:05 to maybe support this ministry, 52:08 we're going to do an address roll here 52:10 that we'd like you to take note of. 52:13 3ABN reaches all around the world. 52:15 And you know, it's an exciting thing to be part 52:18 of this ministry, and you can be part of it 52:20 by your prayers and financial donations. 53:17 Thank you for all you do to help us light the world 53:20 with the glory of God's truth. 53:25 We're talking with Dever Kujur. He's from India 53:29 and we're listening to his testimony. 53:31 We got to the part, Dever, where you came back to India 53:34 after visiting Australia. 53:36 And what I have to ask you is: 53:39 your mom and dad... what was their response 53:42 with you coming home as a Christian? 53:45 Yes. And so when I was in Australia itself 53:49 I gave them a call and told them: "I'm coming back home. " 53:53 And they said: "Wow! That's good news for us. " 53:57 I said: "Yes. " So they came to the airport. 54:00 Normally they would not come to the airport 54:02 to receive me because the flights would land early 54:05 in the morning. They were at the airport to receive me. 54:08 And I embraced them and they were so happy. 54:12 They said: "Son, yes, you are back. " Welcome home! 54:16 "Welcome home... you are back with us. " 54:18 Because always we lived separate lives. 54:22 They knew, though I stayed under one roof, 54:25 but they would go to church. I would go to the university. 54:30 I would go out and do all... Actually, one of the 54:32 points is, too, the motorcycle event that you told us 54:35 about before. Yes. That happened on a Sabbath morning, 54:38 didn't it? 54:40 No, that didn't happen on a Sabbath morning. I think that 54:42 was on a Monday - um-hmm - it was. 54:46 On a Monday. Usually on Sabbath 54:49 I would either go to the university campus 54:52 where I studied. Or since it is a very warm 54:56 weather on that day - 54:59 we didn't have any air conditioning at home - 55:01 I would go to the theater be- cause it's all air conditioned. 55:04 Yes. Get cool. 55:07 So you met your wife Virginia - yes - and you got married. 55:14 So now you've got a different direction. 55:16 Make big is not part of the scene. 55:19 No! Becoming rich and famous? 55:20 You've obviously got something different now. 55:23 Tell us just briefly, just briefly, what it is 55:27 that you and your wife decided to do. Yes. 55:29 In fact, my wife was already exposed to the ministry 55:33 because of her brother. Um-hmm. 55:35 And of course she's from the Catholic background. 55:38 She'll tell more about it. 55:40 And therefore, it was easy for her to accept me. 55:44 In fact, they were converted to the Lord before I would be 55:48 converted. So therefore we joined hands together. 55:52 And then since I was more into the media work 55:57 I decided to go to Europe 56:00 and then help another ministry there with magazine layout 56:04 with illustrations and for the cover design. 56:08 All that I did - um-hmm - from India. 56:11 I went there, met the people, came back to India 56:13 and online I would do the work. 56:16 So that's how I used to do the ministry work 56:19 also for the people in Europe. But also in India 56:22 we decided to set up something for our people. 56:27 Um-hmm. And that is where I will share with you 56:30 more later how our approach is in India... 56:34 especially on the health work. 56:36 Because many people in India are not in good health - 56:39 umm - and they don't have much money. 56:42 Um-hmm. And when you look at the people in India 56:44 there are people who are VERY rich. 56:46 The disparity between the rich and poor. People are very poor. 56:49 Yes! Very poor. 56:51 Just in the closing few seconds, Dever - yes - 56:54 we've heard your story: living a life 56:57 under the banner of being a Christian as a young person. 57:00 What would you say to someone that's viewing now 57:03 if you are not sure about your faith. What would you 57:07 tell them if they're a young-age person, 57:09 they don't sort of want to follow mom and dad? 57:11 Yes, first of all I will talk to them 57:14 and ask them: "What is your calling? " 57:17 "What is your purpose on this earth? " 57:20 Hmm. You know, with young people I often 57:23 talk to them because they want directions. 57:25 If you look at the young people in India, 57:27 they only know to become a doctor or an engineer 57:30 or computer software... or flee to the USA. 57:35 That's all they're doing. Yes. 57:38 Well, you know what? We're going to come back 57:40 because we know that this is a great story that these two 57:42 have. Until the next program: God bless you. |
Revised 2020-11-03