This is 3ABN Now with
John and Rosemary Malkiewycz.
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Hello and welcome to 3ABN Now.
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3ABN Television Network
goes all around the world.
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And we are very happy to
have someone in the studio
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that comes from India. So
if you are watching in India
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a special welcome
to all of you there.
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And I know that the story
that we're going to hear today
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will impact many people's lives.
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And you know, Dever
Kujur... you are from India.
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Thank you for coming on
the program. We are very happy
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to have you here.
Thank you very much.
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You know, what's interesting is
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as Christian parents
we have a great desire
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to see our children follow
the faith, follow the Bible,
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follow God, follow Jesus...
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to be with them in
the kingdom of heaven.
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And I know that the
story today is a testimony
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from Dever that will
I'm sure help many people...
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especially young people. Espe-
cially those who are brought up
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in Christian homes where it's
expected that they will follow.
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But we don't really know
what's going on in their hearts.
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We THINK we do... but
as we'll see from this
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testimony, God led
Dever through a journey where
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he discovered God at a later age
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even though he grew
up in a Christian home.
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So Dever: you know this is going
to be an interesting story.
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I know that your
testimony is a powerful one
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and so we are looking
forward to hearing it.
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But before we do
you've chosen a text.
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I'm going to get
Rosemary to read it - um-hmm -
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then you can tell us about it.
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It's from I John 3:16
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and it says:
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"Hereby perceive
we the love of God
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because He laid
down His life for us
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and we ought to lay down
our lives for the brethren. "
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So Dever, tell me: what
is it that's especially...
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what makes that
special to your heart?
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This Bible verse
is very special to me
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because Jesus Christ
laid down His life for me
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and for the rest of humanity.
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But I like the last line.
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That we also should lay
down our life for our brother
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and sister... whether he's
a Hindu, Muslim, Christian...
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whoever. We have to
learn that we need to serve
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others, and that
really struck me.
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Usually I always think: "Yes,
Jesus has laid down His life
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for me" but what
am I going to do?
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Just sit back? NO! I
need to be a witness.
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I need to give a
service to others.
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And therefore that
really impressed me.
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Hmm. I like it how Jesus came to
this earth and He was a servant.
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And so, you know, that's
a concept that we have to
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deal with: that we need
to be helping other people.
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In many ways. It could be
health. It could be in many many
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ways: their spiritual
walk... even their finances.
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Even providing for
people who are starving,
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don't have clothing.
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Who are sick or in prison...
all those sorts of aspects.
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That's what Jesus
calls us to do as well.
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Yes. Hmm. Laying
down our lives in any way
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that we need to.
Not necessarily dying
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but laying down our
own rights even sometimes
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or our own wants to do for
other people who are needy.
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True, because many are
living for themselves today.
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And therefore... I mean
this world is a selfish world.
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Everyone is
working for themselves
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amassing money, fame, riches.
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But then when you look at
the life of Jesus Christ...
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He was poor; He
left His high command -
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um-hmm - and came to this world.
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He became poor but we
became rich... spiritually rich.
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Yes. And therefore
I looked at my life
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and I said: "I
need to serve others. "
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All around the
world. Not only in India
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but even now in
Australia I need to continue
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that service for humanity.
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And you know what it was like
to live a life of wanting to
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basically serve yourself.
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To be famous and
to do extremely well
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above other people.
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So we're going to
listen to your testimony, which
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I found REALLY interesting.
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So let's start. Tell us about
your family, your background.
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I am brought up in a
Seventh-day Adventist family.
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I have an elder sister. We are
only two of us in the family.
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A very close-knitted family.
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Um-hmm. Every day we
have morning worship,
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evening worship. Every
Sabbath Day we go to church.
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But really, I didn't
find any meaning in it.
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Hmm. I was feeling
that I was like a robot.
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"Oh yes, I'm a
Seventh-day Adventist. " "Why? "
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"Because my parents
are Seventh-day Adventist.
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That's why I am a
Seventh-day Adventist. "
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And that's not a good reason.
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That's right. I really
did not experience the Lord -
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hmm - but it was
more or less like a duty.
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And over time I
began to get tired of
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this monotonous schedule
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and therefore I
began to search the Lord.
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You know, just going back a bit.
So you had Adventist parents.
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Yes. They were working in
the work in the church. Sure.
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And you were at home. You
went to a Christian school?
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Yes. You went through
school in your early years. Yes.
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And you had all
the training. Yes!
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And yet there was something
missing. Is that right?
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Yes. I had all the ingredients.
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I was there in the set up, but
I didn't come close to the Lord.
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So did your mom and dad
see you as a "good boy? "
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A good little boy? Oh, yes!
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Outwardly I was
like a saint. Oh!
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But I really did
not find the Lord.
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You didn't know
Him for yourself.
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Had anybody approached you to
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introduce you to Him even though
you were a youth in the church?
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You know? By doing
Bible studies with you?
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By trying to teach you
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about having a relationship
with Jesus? Or was it just
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the basics that
you needed to know?
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I had the basics, right?
There were Bible studies.
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We had camping. So
many activities we had.
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But really... So
you were busy "doing. "
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Yes, I was busy
doing all these things.
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Hmm. But... I was
really not convinced
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why I am a
Seventh-day Adventist.
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Hmm. So therefore I
went in another direction
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which I will share with
you in a few minutes from now.
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I think there's a lot of
young people in churches -
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not just Adventists
but in a lot of churches -
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who are there for the same
reasons that you have said.
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And they're going
through the motions - true -
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because it's the
right thing to do - yes -
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and because their family
is doing it or their friends
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are doing it - yes - but
they have no connection with
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God themselves. That's true.
It's an important Bible teaching
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that you honor your
father and your mother.
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And I think as
children get to the age...
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You know, while they're young
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they should be
listening to their mom and dad.
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And when I say young, you
know, Jesus was 12 years old -
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when He began -
yes - His ministry.
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But up unto that time He
was listening to His parents.
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And I think it's important that,
you know, children understand
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they are not parents
until they get older.
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But when you get older you do
do make decisions for yourself.
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So it's good to follow
the counsel and direction
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of mom and dad. And
what you did was right,
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but there's that other
part that you have to decide.
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Yes. In fact, if
you look at obedience.
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Obedience is based on love. Hmm.
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I mean, yes... I
obeyed my parents
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but was it from a willing heart?
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Hmm. Because
obedience is based on love.
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Um-hmm. And I had
not discovered that love
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and therefore inwardly
I was actually a rebel.
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Hmm! And therefore
when you look at life
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there are 5 things
that drive life today
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and even in my days.
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So I think it's: riches, power,
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fame, pleasure,
and ease of life.
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Hmm. These are the five
things that drive life today.
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Hmm. And therefore for
me I wanted to be rich.
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I wanted to be famous.
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Everyone should
look at me in this world.
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If I should land
in Melbourne City,
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oh, a crowd should be
around me. "Here comes Kujur. "
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Yes. Seeking for my
autograph or my signature.
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You know, it gives that
temporary satisfaction -
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yes - so I decide
for that. Only temporary.
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Yes. And then of
course power comes in.
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Hmm. Of course
pleasure and ease of life.
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Hmm. So that
really drives life today.
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Very good. Now as a young person
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your parents were
working for the church?
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Yes. You had an uncle
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who was very high up
in the church in India.
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What was his job?
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He was the president.
Of the? Of the division.
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Of the Southern Asia?
Yes, Southern Asia Division.
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So he was the "top
dog" there as they say.
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Yes, he was the "top
dog" there, and we had to
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really put a life in order.
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If not, he would be at stake.
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But did you put
your life in order?
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I did not... but I
tried to keep a low profile.
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So OK then, tell us some of
the things that you were up to
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as a young person. I
remember you mentioning
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to us prior to the interview
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that you were involved in music.
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That came later, but
maybe I will begin this way.
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After my high school in India
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I wanted to be a
commercial pilot. Um-hmm.
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Now in India there's
a lot of competition.
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Hmm. But because
I come from a tribe
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where the
government gives certain quota
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where I can get into
that institution - um-hmm -
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I took the privilege of
trying to get into this aviation
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institution. So I secured
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that quota and I
was ready to plunge in.
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The first two years you
will be trained by the...
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by the Air Force of India.
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And in the third year you can
select either for the Air Force
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or for the commercial flying.
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I was opting for the commercial
flying because I like to go
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around the world
and I want to be rich.
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Um-hmm. I want to be famous.
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I want to be powerful.
You know, that's my goal.
00:12:05.75\00:12:08.26
So news went to my
uncle, and my dad and my mom
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used to work in the
organization. Um-hmm.
00:12:15.13\00:12:17.80
And so my uncle had a
serious talk with them.
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"I mean your
son can't do this. "
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"What would the
church people say? "
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"My nephew has
gone into the world. "
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So my parents talked to me
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and I said: "Oh,
this can't work because
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where will the money come?
It will come from my parents. "
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And my parents are telling
me now: "This is not the right
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direction. " So I
said: "OK, let's give up. "
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But I was really upset
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because I wanted
to reach my goal.
00:12:51.23\00:12:53.64
And so that was
after high school. Um-hmm.
00:12:54.60\00:12:58.01
And after that I joined
00:12:58.41\00:13:03.55
a college. But really I didn't
like being in the college.
00:13:03.75\00:13:09.52
And that was an
Adventist college.
00:13:09.72\00:13:11.65
And what were you studying?
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I was just studying
for the sake of studying.
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So I took up... I was
interested in biology.
00:13:16.83\00:13:20.30
Right. And, of course, physics,
00:13:20.50\00:13:23.26
mathematics. So all that I took.
00:13:23.47\00:13:26.30
But I really did not
want to be in that college.
00:13:27.14\00:13:31.34
So I created a situation
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that I can flee
from the college.
00:13:34.78\00:13:37.25
You hatched a plan.
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I hatched a plan, a secret
agenda, that only my sister
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knew about it. And
she said: "OK, if that is
00:13:44.62\00:13:48.59
your wish better
you leave then. "
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And so I left the college.
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And now I was not
in college. No studies.
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And then there was a person
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who saw some of my drawings.
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By the way, I am a born artist.
00:14:05.27\00:14:07.24
Yes. So he had a
look. He said: "Wow!
00:14:07.44\00:14:10.45
You are really good in
designing automobiles. "
00:14:10.85\00:14:14.98
I said: "Yes... but
in India we don't have
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any institution that
can really train me. "
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Because in that time there
was no good automobile industry
00:14:22.32\00:14:28.40
in India. We
just had one company
00:14:28.60\00:14:32.37
that made the
Ambassador. Um-hmm.
00:14:32.57\00:14:36.14
So that company mushroomed
out from the British company
00:14:36.54\00:14:40.21
called Morris Minor.
00:14:40.41\00:14:42.68
OK. Because the Britishers
had colonized India. Yes.
00:14:42.88\00:14:47.48
So we just had one
automobile company.
00:14:47.68\00:14:50.85
And each time I
looked at that car
00:14:51.85\00:14:54.26
it brought sadness to my face.
00:14:54.42\00:14:56.39
No design... nothing.
00:14:56.59\00:14:59.63
It just takes you from A to B -
um-hmm - but nothing to look at.
00:15:00.03\00:15:05.30
So I said: "Well, the
opportunities in India
00:15:06.03\00:15:08.54
are very low. "
So this man told me
00:15:08.74\00:15:11.81
"Don't worry...
give me your portfolio.
00:15:12.21\00:15:15.78
Make some good car designs
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and I know a person in Japan
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who will be interested? "
00:15:22.82\00:15:25.29
And in those days
Japan was good in cars.
00:15:26.42\00:15:29.19
Um-hmm. A lot of
companies in Japan.
00:15:29.39\00:15:32.66
I said: "Wow! That's good! "
00:15:32.86\00:15:34.33
So I made my portfolio
00:15:34.73\00:15:36.53
and the owner of that institu-
tion or the company in Japan
00:15:36.73\00:15:42.10
was very interested.
00:15:42.30\00:15:44.94
He said: "Yes,
the fee for this much
00:15:45.34\00:15:47.74
you have to pay every semester.
00:15:47.94\00:15:50.38
And you can come and stay at
the company and work for us. "
00:15:51.75\00:15:57.32
But I wrote him back
00:15:57.82\00:16:00.29
that I'm not a rich person.
Now he's talking about yen
00:16:00.49\00:16:04.33
and dollars. Umm! And in
India we talk about rupees.
00:16:04.49\00:16:08.53
No match. Yeah, I know.
00:16:08.73\00:16:11.93
So I said: "Oh another obstacle.
I can't reach my goal. "
00:16:12.13\00:16:15.54
Um-hmm. So then I
wrote back to him and said:
00:16:15.74\00:16:19.11
"I will not be able to
come because of the fees. "
00:16:19.51\00:16:23.65
And then he wrote
back to me and said:
00:16:24.05\00:16:26.15
"No problem. Everything
will be free for you. "
00:16:26.55\00:16:31.19
Hmm! "Just come to Japan, but
you need to learn Japanese. "
00:16:31.39\00:16:36.32
I said: "OK, I'm
going to learn Japanese! "
00:16:36.73\00:16:39.93
That's not an easy task!
00:16:40.33\00:16:42.03
No, it's not an easy task but
there are still some traces of
00:16:42.23\00:16:45.37
Japanese language in me.
Like if you say: "How are you? "
00:16:45.57\00:16:49.17
"Oh-GEN-kee deska. "
00:16:49.37\00:16:50.71
Hai. Genkee des...
that's something: genkee des.
00:16:50.74\00:16:53.17
That means I'm fine.
00:16:53.38\00:16:54.78
So I say: "Konnichiwa"
you know what I'm saying?
00:16:54.98\00:16:57.88
Yes! "Arigatou gozaimasu. "
00:16:58.08\00:16:59.88
So I had a great interest
because remember: I needed to
00:17:01.22\00:17:04.82
reach my goal. So I
would do anything in life
00:17:05.02\00:17:09.36
and therefore I got in
touch with a Japanese lady
00:17:09.76\00:17:14.46
in the Embassy in India.
00:17:14.66\00:17:17.17
She said: "OK, you
can come to my home
00:17:17.37\00:17:20.80
and I will
personally teach you Japanese. "
00:17:21.00\00:17:24.04
Hmm! I said: "Wow!
That's a good privilege. "
00:17:24.24\00:17:26.91
It is! Yeah. So I
used to go regularly.
00:17:27.11\00:17:30.88
And I loved that
language. How hard it may be
00:17:31.08\00:17:34.75
but remember: at
the back of my mind
00:17:34.95\00:17:37.55
I need to reach my goal.
00:17:37.75\00:17:39.52
Um-hmm. So that really drove me.
00:17:39.72\00:17:42.09
And therefore after a few months
after I learned that language
00:17:43.29\00:17:46.56
I was ready to go to Japan.
00:17:46.96\00:17:49.63
Now did you learn just conver-
sational? Or did you learn
00:17:49.83\00:17:52.30
to read and write? I
learned just conversational
00:17:52.50\00:17:56.97
so that I can
move about in Japan.
00:17:57.37\00:17:59.61
And at the same time I
was learning the script.
00:17:59.81\00:18:02.28
Katakana and Hiragan. Yes.
00:18:02.48\00:18:04.88
And then they have
the Chinese characters.
00:18:05.08\00:18:06.88
Yes. Very
complicated. Very complicated
00:18:07.08\00:18:09.58
but they are all
pictures. And I being an artist
00:18:09.78\00:18:12.25
I used to look at those
alphabets and say: "Wow!
00:18:12.45\00:18:14.82
that looks like a house. "
"Oh, that looks like a fish. "
00:18:15.02\00:18:17.33
Those are very picturesque.
00:18:17.73\00:18:21.46
So therefore after
I finished all that
00:18:21.66\00:18:24.33
I needed to apply for the visa.
00:18:24.53\00:18:27.20
So I turned in my papers
00:18:28.20\00:18:30.94
filled out with
the Consulate lady.
00:18:31.14\00:18:34.08
And then she said: "Yes,
we have submitted your paper.
00:18:34.28\00:18:38.25
You have to wait
say for a month. "
00:18:38.65\00:18:42.55
So those were
anxious moments in my life.
00:18:43.05\00:18:46.52
So I waited patiently.
00:18:47.32\00:18:49.62
And then the day came
when I had to go to the Embassy
00:18:50.03\00:18:53.70
and receive my visa.
So I went to the Embassy.
00:18:53.90\00:18:57.63
I got my passport.
I went and looked...
00:18:59.40\00:19:02.94
There was no visa.
Hmm! I was shocked.
00:19:03.14\00:19:06.98
That means you can't go. Yes!
00:19:07.18\00:19:09.54
I can't go. And I wrote
back to that person in Japan.
00:19:09.74\00:19:15.58
He was totally shocked.
He said: "I am a millionaire.
00:19:15.98\00:19:20.39
I am in Japan and
you didn't get a visa? "
00:19:20.79\00:19:25.49
I said: "Yes! " And you
had the lady at the Consulate
00:19:26.56\00:19:29.56
helping you. Yes! I had
the lady at the Consulate
00:19:29.76\00:19:32.43
helping me and I didn't get.
00:19:32.83\00:19:36.47
And I had a lot of
question marks in my head.
00:19:37.21\00:19:40.78
Hmm. Where is God?
00:19:40.98\00:19:42.54
Why didn't He help me?
00:19:42.94\00:19:44.65
He did! Yes. You know,
00:19:45.05\00:19:48.72
Dever, I was thinking about
your parents during this time.
00:19:48.92\00:19:52.35
Here is their son doing all
this to leave and go to Japan.
00:19:52.75\00:19:57.76
What were they? Did
they say anything to you?
00:19:58.16\00:20:00.63
They didn't say
anything to me. If you look at
00:20:01.16\00:20:04.30
most parents in India, they want
their children to progress -
00:20:04.50\00:20:08.14
um-hmm - in the world.
00:20:08.34\00:20:09.97
Even today when
you look in India
00:20:10.17\00:20:12.04
most children are doing medicine
00:20:12.24\00:20:17.81
or engineering.
There are only two careers
00:20:18.01\00:20:21.52
in India. Either you be a doctor
00:20:21.72\00:20:24.99
or you be an engineer.
00:20:25.19\00:20:26.96
OR in computer engineering.
00:20:27.76\00:20:30.73
Um-hmm. That's it,
because you know it gives status
00:20:30.93\00:20:35.56
to the family. Um-hmm.
"Oh, I have two children.
00:20:35.76\00:20:38.67
They are both
doctors. " You know?
00:20:38.87\00:20:40.20
Hmm. So my parents would
think: "Wow! OK... this is a new
00:20:40.27\00:20:45.14
field of study. But
let him go to Japan;
00:20:45.34\00:20:49.48
let him make big. "
00:20:49.68\00:20:53.15
OK. I like that
word "make big. "
00:20:53.35\00:20:54.75
Yes!
00:20:54.95\00:20:56.28
So therefore they really did
not object me to go to Japan -
00:20:56.95\00:21:02.22
um-hmm - with the hope
that I will find Jesus in Japan.
00:21:02.42\00:21:05.93
Um-hmm. Which would
be very interesting!
00:21:06.13\00:21:09.76
But I knew I was
going in another direction.
00:21:11.00\00:21:13.60
Yes, I would have gone to Japan.
00:21:13.80\00:21:15.27
OK. I would have
married maybe a Japanese lady
00:21:15.47\00:21:17.87
and I would have settled there.
00:21:18.27\00:21:20.31
I would become famous because
to be an automotive designer
00:21:20.71\00:21:24.55
whenever they have the auto show
00:21:24.95\00:21:27.68
I mean I always see a
lot of people around the car.
00:21:28.08\00:21:31.35
They're looking at the car.
00:21:31.55\00:21:33.15
They think:
"Who's the designer? "
00:21:33.56\00:21:34.89
You know they're not
looking really at the engine.
00:21:34.96\00:21:36.79
First they look at the
body... the outward appearance.
00:21:37.19\00:21:40.30
Uh-huh. So I said: "Oh,
I'm going to be famous. "
00:21:40.50\00:21:43.40
So when I got the sad news
00:21:44.27\00:21:46.67
I said: "There is no God. "
00:21:46.87\00:21:48.70
Hmm. "God cannot exist.
00:21:49.10\00:21:52.14
He does not love me. " Do
you think there were people
00:21:52.34\00:21:55.04
praying for you that
you wouldn't get the visa?
00:21:55.24\00:21:57.68
I've never thought about that!
00:21:58.08\00:22:00.05
Maybe the uncle? I'm sure...
00:22:00.25\00:22:03.89
I think my
parents would have prayed:
00:22:04.09\00:22:06.42
"What is Your will,
Lord? Let it be done. "
00:22:06.62\00:22:08.96
Um-hmm. So I came
back home disheartened.
00:22:09.16\00:22:13.09
Nothing to look forward.
00:22:13.50\00:22:15.46
I didn't want to go to college
and do the degree course.
00:22:15.66\00:22:19.87
I didn't want to be a doctor
because I said it's a very
00:22:20.27\00:22:23.27
boring profession.
Oh, that's interesting!
00:22:23.47\00:22:26.57
Oh, yes... you
only see SICK people.
00:22:26.78\00:22:30.41
Yes. And I
didn't like the smell.
00:22:30.61\00:22:32.78
I wanted life. Uh-huh.
00:22:33.18\00:22:36.05
So therefore I
didn't know what to do.
00:22:36.45\00:22:39.05
So I was at home just
contemplating about life.
00:22:39.82\00:22:44.66
"What is the next
step should I take? "
00:22:44.86\00:22:47.06
And then my mom comes
into the room and says:
00:22:47.96\00:22:51.50
"Dever, I have news for you. "
00:22:51.70\00:22:54.44
And I was like: "What news
00:22:54.94\00:22:57.81
when everything is
like over with me? "
00:22:58.71\00:23:02.01
She said: "I'm so happy
you didn't go to Japan. "
00:23:02.41\00:23:05.18
I said: "Why?
Why are you happy? "
00:23:05.38\00:23:08.38
"I mean, I'm sad;
you're happy... but why? "
00:23:08.58\00:23:11.69
She said: "Look
at the newspaper! "
00:23:12.55\00:23:14.42
And I said: "What's
wrong with the newspaper? "
00:23:14.62\00:23:17.26
She said: "There was a
big earthquake at Kobe. "
00:23:18.66\00:23:23.73
The place where I
was supposed to go.
00:23:23.93\00:23:26.60
Umm. And then I began
to connect the dots now.
00:23:26.80\00:23:30.41
Earthquake! Would
I have survived or?
00:23:31.64\00:23:35.84
If you had gone to Japan, you
would have been in that location
00:23:36.04\00:23:39.48
in that place where the
earthquake was. Is that right?
00:23:39.68\00:23:41.58
Yes... that is very true.
00:23:41.78\00:23:43.99
And then I said: "Lord,
You wanted to save my life
00:23:44.95\00:23:49.22
and therefore You
didn't allow me to go there. "
00:23:49.62\00:23:53.19
For that few days and weeks
00:23:54.20\00:23:57.83
yes I was close to God but
really did not find Him still.
00:23:58.03\00:24:02.34
Hmm. Then I began to
think about my future now.
00:24:02.54\00:24:06.68
What next? What should I do?
00:24:07.08\00:24:09.74
And so my parents told me:
"Son, in India if you need to
00:24:10.88\00:24:15.88
have a job you
need to have a degree.
00:24:16.08\00:24:19.45
Whatever degree...
whether it's in history,
00:24:20.32\00:24:22.72
whether it's in physics,
whether it's in English,
00:24:22.92\00:24:25.39
whatever... you
need to have a degree. "
00:24:25.59\00:24:29.16
So reluctantly I
took a step forward
00:24:29.56\00:24:33.97
and I joined a college in
the capitol city of India.
00:24:35.57\00:24:40.11
Um-hmm. So there
I enrolled myself
00:24:40.31\00:24:44.98
and I decided to
get into the media.
00:24:45.38\00:24:48.35
Remember... my
goal to be what? Rich!
00:24:49.48\00:24:53.82
And famous. Famous!
00:24:54.02\00:24:55.79
So I decided to
become a journalist
00:24:56.19\00:24:58.56
along with my classmates.
00:24:58.96\00:25:00.86
But I said: "No, I
don't like to see text.
00:25:01.06\00:25:02.93
Only writing,
reporting, and all that.
00:25:03.13\00:25:05.27
Interview the
politicians and all that.
00:25:05.47\00:25:08.20
No... since I'm an artist
I want to be a cartoonist. "
00:25:08.60\00:25:12.17
Um-hmm. Umm!
00:25:12.57\00:25:13.94
And at that time we had
a very famous cartoonist.
00:25:14.14\00:25:16.98
His name is Laxman. Um-hmm.
00:25:17.18\00:25:19.78
He was working in that newspaper
00:25:20.18\00:25:22.55
firm where I was
supposed to work.
00:25:22.75\00:25:25.72
I said: "Wow!
That's it! That's nice now
00:25:26.12\00:25:28.92
to be with someone famous. "
00:25:29.12\00:25:31.03
This is like a
step up, isn't it?
00:25:31.43\00:25:34.00
Oh, yes! On the route to fame.
00:25:34.20\00:25:36.10
Yes, on the route
to fame and success.
00:25:36.30\00:25:39.03
You'll hold on to
his fame for a bit. Yes!
00:25:39.23\00:25:40.94
So therefore after I
finished my graduation
00:25:41.34\00:25:44.77
there was a cartoon
competition all over India
00:25:45.17\00:25:50.08
because the company was look-
ing for budding cartoonists.
00:25:51.15\00:25:55.58
Um-hmm. So they
gave a competition.
00:25:55.78\00:25:58.59
So there were like
50,000 to 60,000 entries.
00:25:59.39\00:26:02.46
Really? Oh, there's a
lot of people in India
00:26:02.66\00:26:05.13
so I've got to
remember that, don't I? Yes!
00:26:05.33\00:26:08.30
So we have not
touched the 1 billion mark
00:26:08.73\00:26:11.90
but I think it was
around 700 million people.
00:26:12.10\00:26:14.54
Hmm. So everyone
gave them the entries.
00:26:14.74\00:26:17.97
I gave mine. There were
two sections that they gave us:
00:26:18.17\00:26:21.28
one to draw
about social cartoons;
00:26:21.48\00:26:24.75
the other one is political
but you can draw caricatures.
00:26:24.95\00:26:28.92
Um-hmm. So I was
good in caricatures.
00:26:29.15\00:26:31.62
So always I blew up their face.
You know, make it really funny.
00:26:32.02\00:26:35.86
So I did that,
and I was surprised
00:26:36.83\00:26:39.43
that I won in
both of the categories.
00:26:39.63\00:26:42.40
Oh! I said: "Oh, I'm
going in the right direction! "
00:26:42.60\00:26:47.47
And so eventually the company
asked me to fill out the forms
00:26:49.20\00:26:52.77
to join the
company. And in the meantime
00:26:53.17\00:26:56.75
I worked for another magazine,
It's called the Commerce Weekly,
00:26:56.95\00:27:01.28
just for me to get an orien-
tation how the work will be.
00:27:02.18\00:27:06.12
And so I joined and I
was very happy about it.
00:27:06.52\00:27:09.82
Now I'll stop here because
before I go into the next
00:27:10.83\00:27:16.46
step of my conversion
00:27:16.67\00:27:19.47
meanwhile when I was in the job
00:27:19.87\00:27:23.74
I really enjoyed.
Because in India, at least I can
00:27:23.94\00:27:27.61
talk for India, normally politi-
cians are scared of journalists.
00:27:27.81\00:27:32.21
We can destroy
them or build them. Yes.
00:27:32.61\00:27:35.58
That's how it goes...
and I really loved that.
00:27:35.78\00:27:39.02
So I was a cartoonist but I
was to go with my classmates.
00:27:39.22\00:27:41.92
I remember one
incident we went to interview
00:27:42.12\00:27:45.89
a mullah in a mosque.
00:27:46.09\00:27:49.60
And I told my friend
- my journalist friend -
00:27:50.83\00:27:54.20
"Be kind with him.
These are Muslim people
00:27:54.40\00:27:57.97
and we are in the mosque.
00:27:58.37\00:28:00.44
Anything can take
place. " He said: "Don't worry.
00:28:00.64\00:28:03.31
Even if we die
it'll be in the paper. "
00:28:03.51\00:28:06.05
Nothing to fear!
00:28:07.78\00:28:10.35
And he went in there
and I was really shocked
00:28:10.55\00:28:14.46
the way he
destroyed that person - umm -
00:28:14.66\00:28:19.19
without fear. It
made me to pain a bit.
00:28:19.39\00:28:24.63
Does Got want
me to be like this?
00:28:26.07\00:28:29.90
To destroy people?
00:28:30.11\00:28:32.34
But always I would brush
off the idea because my goals
00:28:32.54\00:28:35.24
are in front. To be
famous and to be rich!
00:28:35.44\00:28:40.68
That was my goal.
00:28:40.88\00:28:42.68
So in the meantime... Let
me go back to my college days.
00:28:43.85\00:28:48.59
When we were in college
00:28:49.82\00:28:52.03
there was what we
call a music society
00:28:52.43\00:28:57.80
that was created in the college.
00:28:58.00\00:28:59.73
And the college always
wanted to get a good name
00:29:00.64\00:29:04.34
for its... for its institution.
00:29:04.74\00:29:08.21
So we had the dramatic society
00:29:08.88\00:29:11.41
then we had the music society
00:29:11.61\00:29:14.02
and so on and forth.
00:29:14.42\00:29:16.35
So I was good in music, playing
the keyboard and the guitar.
00:29:16.55\00:29:20.02
So then I joined
the music society.
00:29:21.02\00:29:23.73
And I really liked
this society, you know,
00:29:24.86\00:29:28.23
because again you're
famous. Here is a band...
00:29:28.43\00:29:31.67
a rock band that I joined.
00:29:31.87\00:29:33.77
And whenever we walk up
on stage we have bodyguards.
00:29:34.27\00:29:38.31
I felt very nice!
Have people cheering?
00:29:38.81\00:29:41.41
Yes, we have people
cheering. They knew our group.
00:29:41.61\00:29:44.38
You feel good? We feel good!
00:29:44.58\00:29:46.55
And we have the security and
the police. They stand around
00:29:47.72\00:29:51.35
the stage, and when you are
on stage you are someone now.
00:29:51.55\00:29:56.46
And we used to play
all kinds of rock music.
00:29:56.86\00:30:00.60
And then the real show
used to come on Friday night,
00:30:02.90\00:30:07.77
Saturday night.
These are the two nights.
00:30:08.17\00:30:11.41
And my parents? Yes,
they were praying for me
00:30:12.44\00:30:15.74
but they were not forcefully
telling me: "Don't go. "
00:30:16.14\00:30:20.02
"If you go, we will do
this, we will do that. "
00:30:20.22\00:30:22.58
They knew I would
become more rebellious.
00:30:22.98\00:30:25.45
Umm. So Friday nights we
used to go and play music...
00:30:25.65\00:30:31.09
rock music... till
11 or 12 in the night.
00:30:31.29\00:30:35.20
Now this band that
you're talking about
00:30:36.06\00:30:38.03
Dever, was not just a
backyard band, was it?
00:30:38.23\00:30:41.80
No, it was not a backyard
band. We were the third best
00:30:42.00\00:30:45.44
rock band in India.
Hmm! That's pretty good.
00:30:45.64\00:30:48.54
And when you think - it's
like we were saying before -
00:30:48.74\00:30:50.48
the population of India and how
many rock bands there must be.
00:30:50.68\00:30:53.28
Yes. That's pretty
high! Yes, it's pretty high.
00:30:53.48\00:30:55.95
We really mastered the
music that rock groups play
00:30:56.15\00:31:00.76
like - what you call
it - like Black Sabbath.
00:31:00.96\00:31:03.96
Ian Gillan, and we really
liked the rock group Scorpions.
00:31:04.16\00:31:08.70
Not a very good name,
are they? Not a good name.
00:31:10.07\00:31:12.37
At that time the hit
song was... I think it was?
00:31:13.54\00:31:18.57
I forget the group
name but the song was
00:31:18.97\00:31:22.18
The Final Countdown -
OK. When the Discovery,
00:31:22.38\00:31:25.81
that space shuttle,
exploded in the sky -
00:31:26.01\00:31:29.42
umm - then they made the song.
00:31:29.62\00:31:32.05
OK. So we always
started with that song.
00:31:32.25\00:31:34.32
All by Van Halen
a song called Jump.
00:31:34.72\00:31:38.36
We would start with that.
00:31:38.56\00:31:40.26
So we were three
Christians in this rock band.
00:31:40.46\00:31:43.90
Three along with
others. How many altogether?
00:31:44.30\00:31:47.50
We were a
five-member team. All right.
00:31:47.70\00:31:49.34
So two were Hindus;
three were Christians.
00:31:49.94\00:31:53.14
Um-hmm. And then as we
kept on playing all this music
00:31:53.34\00:31:56.58
and then we had a
look at the lyrics
00:31:56.78\00:31:58.91
we said: "This is all anti
Christ and we are Christians! "
00:31:59.31\00:32:04.15
Um-hmm. "Why are we
playing this song? "
00:32:04.35\00:32:07.26
So you hadn't bothered to
listen to the words before?
00:32:07.66\00:32:10.89
It was just a matter
of playing the music? Yes.
00:32:11.09\00:32:12.69
Just the music.
We liked the music
00:32:12.89\00:32:15.00
but we really
didn't look at the words.
00:32:15.20\00:32:16.60
Because? You liked the prestige
and the power and the music.
00:32:16.80\00:32:19.60
Yes, and the music. The thing
is: we were not the lead singer.
00:32:19.80\00:32:24.51
I was the keyboardist
00:32:24.91\00:32:27.18
and the other
Christian was the bass guitarist
00:32:27.58\00:32:29.98
and the lead
guitarist was another Christian.
00:32:30.18\00:32:32.71
But the singer was not a
Christian so it does not matter.
00:32:33.31\00:32:37.89
I am singing.
The point is, though,
00:32:38.15\00:32:41.79
you're playing on a
Friday night - yes -
00:32:41.99\00:32:44.13
and you're a
Seventh-day Adventist. Yes.
00:32:44.33\00:32:46.13
So how did that work?
00:32:46.53\00:32:48.56
I didn't really
bothered about it. Hmm.
00:32:49.16\00:32:53.44
Whether it's Wednesday or Friday
night. Every day is same for me.
00:32:53.64\00:32:57.41
Yes, Sunday is
a more quieter day
00:32:58.77\00:33:01.24
because in India on
Sunday the shops are closed.
00:33:01.44\00:33:04.15
People are in their homes, so
I only could really understand
00:33:04.35\00:33:08.18
Sunday... but the other
days are all the same to me
00:33:08.38\00:33:10.69
because I was
resisting the Holy Spirit.
00:33:10.89\00:33:12.92
That's true. I was
fighting. That's true.
00:33:13.12\00:33:15.02
At times it bothered me
00:33:15.42\00:33:17.39
but I said: "I am here to make
some money and to be famous. "
00:33:17.59\00:33:21.33
So what happened when you really
started looking at the words?
00:33:21.73\00:33:25.13
What did you do?
00:33:25.33\00:33:26.67
We said: "We can't
play these songs. "
00:33:26.74\00:33:29.50
We told the lead singer.
He said: "Like what's wrong?
00:33:29.70\00:33:34.11
I mean, we have a
crowd. We earn money
00:33:35.24\00:33:38.55
so what is your problem? "
We said: "We are Christians
00:33:38.75\00:33:41.25
and we believe
in Jesus Christ. "
00:33:41.65\00:33:43.89
But we really did not believe.
00:33:44.09\00:33:46.29
So we broke up from this band
00:33:47.12\00:33:50.46
and then we said:
"OK, let us form another
00:33:50.66\00:33:54.63
group - another band group -
00:33:55.13\00:33:58.60
but it will be a
Christian rock. "
00:33:58.80\00:34:00.90
So we had the good
words, the good lyrics,
00:34:01.10\00:34:04.47
but the style of
music was just the same.
00:34:04.67\00:34:07.11
Hmm. That's right.
00:34:07.61\00:34:09.44
So we really played
for maybe for a few months.
00:34:09.84\00:34:13.18
The congregation of that church
00:34:13.58\00:34:17.19
really enjoyed, but
what was the difference?
00:34:17.39\00:34:20.69
There was no difference. Hmm.
00:34:20.89\00:34:23.66
So eventually coming back
to my work in the newspaper co.
00:34:24.26\00:34:30.23
eventually there was an offer
for me to come to Australia.
00:34:30.73\00:34:35.37
Umm! I said: "Wow! OK...
00:34:35.57\00:34:38.97
that's a good idea:
to come to Australia
00:34:39.17\00:34:41.71
and again, to
make big. " Be famous!
00:34:41.91\00:34:46.58
Be famous; be rich.
00:34:46.78\00:34:49.18
Have pleasure
and the ease of life.
00:34:49.58\00:34:52.62
That was my purpose in life.
00:34:52.82\00:34:54.79
If I had no purpose in life,
I mean, then better to die.
00:34:54.99\00:34:58.69
So you had your
degree and masters in design.
00:34:58.89\00:35:01.76
He had the degree. When
did you get your masters?
00:35:01.96\00:35:04.43
That was way back I would say
00:35:05.03\00:35:08.14
in the 90's. Was that
before you came to Australia?
00:35:08.34\00:35:11.91
Before I came to
Australia. So I had my degrees;
00:35:12.11\00:35:15.44
I had my experience.
Everything. Now I'm coming here
00:35:15.64\00:35:18.98
to a foreign country.
And you've got cartooning
00:35:19.18\00:35:22.95
as part of your
qualification and 3D graphics?
00:35:23.15\00:35:26.69
Yes. You're coming to Australia
to make it big in media
00:35:26.89\00:35:29.42
in that area. Is that right?
00:35:29.62\00:35:30.96
Yes. To make it big over here.
00:35:30.99\00:35:32.93
In the meantime
this later I came to know
00:35:33.53\00:35:36.16
not at that time my mother
and another Australian lady
00:35:36.36\00:35:41.50
were praying for me. Hmm.
00:35:41.70\00:35:44.31
And working in the background?
Working in the background.
00:35:44.47\00:35:46.64
Behind the scenes.
They never told me that.
00:35:46.84\00:35:49.21
After many years
they told me that.
00:35:49.61\00:35:51.51
So then I could connect the dots
why I had to go to Australia.
00:35:52.38\00:35:56.02
So then they
prayed and they said
00:35:57.22\00:36:01.79
"I think this is the best way
00:36:04.03\00:36:05.53
for Dever to come
back to the Lord. "
00:36:05.73\00:36:08.23
So my mother came
up to me and asked
00:36:10.10\00:36:12.97
"Would you be willing to
apply for a visa to Australia? "
00:36:13.37\00:36:18.77
She knew I was disappointed
with Japan so I said nothing.
00:36:18.97\00:36:21.44
"Why should I go abroad? Let
me be in India and make it big
00:36:21.64\00:36:24.71
somewhere here
only" 'cause I was upset.
00:36:24.91\00:36:28.08
And so my mother
looked at me and I said:
00:36:28.28\00:36:31.95
"Yes, mom... I'll have a shot
at it. I'll have a go at it.
00:36:32.15\00:36:36.49
I don't mind. "
And she was so happy.
00:36:36.69\00:36:39.76
She went back to
this Australian woman
00:36:40.03\00:36:42.53
and said "Yes! He said yes! "
00:36:42.76\00:36:44.10
"OK. Come on. Let's start!
00:36:44.33\00:36:45.83
Get the documents;
get the invitation letter.
00:36:46.03\00:36:48.40
get the sponsorship
letter. " Everything was done.
00:36:48.60\00:36:51.27
Ready. I submitted it at the
Australian Embassy in New Delhi
00:36:51.47\00:36:57.81
and I was so happy. Yes,
I'll leave India and go abroad.
00:36:58.01\00:37:01.85
And so I waited for a month
00:37:02.25\00:37:04.82
and then I went to
pick up my passport.
00:37:05.22\00:37:08.16
And when I went to
pick up my passport
00:37:08.56\00:37:11.03
I opened it. No visa. Again!
00:37:11.23\00:37:15.30
Same thing... second
time. Yes... no visa... oh!
00:37:16.33\00:37:19.00
Now I know there's no God.
00:37:19.83\00:37:21.54
Not helping me.
And I told my mom
00:37:21.94\00:37:24.11
"Yes... you must
be praying for me.
00:37:24.31\00:37:27.18
But where? I
didn't get the visa. "
00:37:27.58\00:37:29.91
So then few months went by
00:37:30.98\00:37:33.72
but my mother and that
Australia lady said: "No,
00:37:34.12\00:37:37.35
let's go down on our
knees. Let's pray again! "
00:37:37.55\00:37:40.49
So they prayed and they said:
"Let... maybe, let Dever try
00:37:42.32\00:37:47.63
again for another time. "
00:37:47.83\00:37:51.87
My mom said: "No...
he's so upset about it
00:37:52.07\00:37:55.77
he may not. " But the
Australian lady said: "No.
00:37:55.97\00:37:59.27
Don't give up; try it. "
00:37:59.67\00:38:02.64
So my mom comes back
- comes to my bedroom -
00:38:03.81\00:38:06.38
a bit nervous: "How
to ask my son again? "
00:38:06.98\00:38:10.65
And she asked: "Son,
would you like to apply
00:38:11.35\00:38:17.26
for an Australian
visa the second time? "
00:38:17.46\00:38:19.76
I said: "OK,
mom... nothing to lose. "
00:38:20.76\00:38:24.67
And she was going: "Whoa! "
00:38:24.87\00:38:27.74
Yeah... she was a
big surprised. Wow!
00:38:27.94\00:38:30.71
So again all the
work started again.
00:38:31.67\00:38:35.38
Got the invitation;
got the sponsorship letter
00:38:35.58\00:38:38.25
from the same
source in Australia
00:38:38.45\00:38:40.95
and then I applied. And after
a month I went to the Embassy.
00:38:41.15\00:38:45.45
opened my passport.
"Wow! The visa is there! "
00:38:45.65\00:38:49.99
I said: "Wow! Thank you, Lord. "
00:38:51.79\00:38:53.50
You know, good things
are happening to me...
00:38:53.70\00:38:55.03
so I need to
thank the Lord. Yes.
00:38:55.10\00:38:56.77
So my mom was very
happy. I was happy.
00:38:57.60\00:39:01.57
Packed all my
documents, all my degrees
00:39:01.77\00:39:05.51
and all that. Ready to
go and not to come back.
00:39:05.71\00:39:08.94
So my mom was
able to bear with that
00:39:10.18\00:39:12.81
because "at least my son
has something in life to do. "
00:39:13.01\00:39:16.75
So I left and came to Australia.
00:39:17.65\00:39:19.72
But the agenda was like this:
to put me in a pastor's home
00:39:20.12\00:39:24.23
up in Brisbane. So
I landed in Brisbane
00:39:25.59\00:39:29.73
and I went to this pastor's home
00:39:29.93\00:39:33.34
and stayed with
him and his family.
00:39:33.54\00:39:36.60
And every morning
they have their worship
00:39:37.81\00:39:39.94
and every evening their
worship. The usual thing
00:39:40.34\00:39:43.04
what all SDA families
do. And what you used to
00:39:43.24\00:39:45.81
do in your family.
Yes. I would cooperate
00:39:46.01\00:39:49.52
because I'm in a foreign land.
00:39:49.72\00:39:51.45
And you're staying in their
home. I'm staying in their home.
00:39:51.65\00:39:54.29
But down deep I mean
it's not interesting for me.
00:39:54.69\00:39:58.76
It's being polite, isn't
it? Yes... it's being polite.
00:39:58.96\00:40:02.03
Very diplomatic.
00:40:02.43\00:40:04.30
So this went for a month
00:40:05.97\00:40:08.40
and then this pastor
00:40:09.90\00:40:12.54
was touching the
chapter 2 of Daniel.
00:40:12.74\00:40:16.98
And he was talking
about the European Union.
00:40:18.18\00:40:21.32
Now remember,
when I was a cartoonist
00:40:22.25\00:40:24.92
working in the media
I always had the desire
00:40:25.12\00:40:28.99
that Europe should be united.
00:40:29.19\00:40:31.56
Hmm. All those
little countries in Europe:
00:40:31.76\00:40:35.10
why are they separated?
00:40:35.30\00:40:36.67
They should be united.
00:40:36.87\00:40:38.40
And I liked that idea very much.
00:40:38.60\00:40:40.80
Wow! That's interesting now.
00:40:41.80\00:40:44.87
This pastor is saying
that the unification of Europe
00:40:45.27\00:40:49.51
is against God's divine plan.
00:40:49.71\00:40:52.71
Hmm. "How can
that be? " I would say.
00:40:52.91\00:40:55.38
And I have never
read that chapter.
00:40:55.78\00:40:58.52
Never tried to
understand that chapter.
00:40:58.92\00:41:01.72
And THAT was a
turning point in my life.
00:41:02.12\00:41:05.06
I said: "There must be something
special in that black book" -
00:41:05.26\00:41:09.16
hmm - "that I
missed all these years. "
00:41:09.36\00:41:12.93
You know, we have
interviewed a lot of people
00:41:13.34\00:41:16.14
on this program,
and the Bible chapter
00:41:16.54\00:41:22.51
that has affected the
majority - the vast majority -
00:41:22.71\00:41:25.98
and has brought
them to accept God
00:41:26.18\00:41:30.45
is Daniel chapter 2.
It's a very powerful chapter.
00:41:30.65\00:41:35.29
Yes, it is a
very powerful chapter.
00:41:35.49\00:41:37.56
And I said: "God is in
control of this world! "
00:41:37.76\00:41:41.43
Hmm. "He places kings,
leaders. He takes them away. "
00:41:41.63\00:41:45.93
And therefore I began
to... And He knows the future.
00:41:46.33\00:41:50.31
Yes! He knows the future.
00:41:50.51\00:41:52.27
And therefore I began to take
interest in opening my Bible
00:41:52.67\00:41:57.75
to read, and it
was the first time.
00:41:57.95\00:42:00.55
Always I had a Bible with me
but I never opened the Bible.
00:42:00.75\00:42:03.55
Hmm. It's always closed.
00:42:03.75\00:42:05.42
But I carry it to
church... but never read it.
00:42:05.62\00:42:08.69
And this was the first time
in my life that I began to study
00:42:09.09\00:42:13.56
the book of Daniel.
00:42:13.96\00:42:16.20
And I was saying: "It's amazing
00:42:17.07\00:42:21.00
to know a God who
knows the future! "
00:42:21.20\00:42:25.01
Hmm. And I am only finite.
00:42:25.21\00:42:28.21
And I took great interest
and the pastor was so happy.
00:42:29.51\00:42:33.55
He said: "Maybe he knows
the strategy is working. "
00:42:34.48\00:42:38.05
So all this is going
behind the scene because
00:42:39.55\00:42:42.62
they were communicating with
my mother and with my father
00:42:42.82\00:42:45.43
how their son is
progressing in the Lord.
00:42:45.83\00:42:49.40
Hmm. And eventually
all my desire to be famous,
00:42:49.60\00:42:54.37
to be rich, to make it
big in Australia came to zero.
00:42:54.57\00:42:59.71
I said: "No... I need to share
00:43:00.78\00:43:03.75
this message to
my people in India" -
00:43:03.95\00:43:07.42
hmm - "and I am going back. "
00:43:07.62\00:43:09.62
So you discovered
for yourself really
00:43:10.02\00:43:12.82
the God of the Bible - yes -
and what He wants for humanity.
00:43:13.02\00:43:16.59
For each one of you and I.
00:43:16.79\00:43:18.13
So I would encourage you,
too, that the book of Daniel
00:43:18.16\00:43:21.70
is a prophetic book telling
exactly what's going to happen
00:43:21.90\00:43:27.34
in history right till
this time we're living in now
00:43:27.54\00:43:29.80
and even to the future.
00:43:30.01\00:43:31.44
And when you discovered
that there was this truth
00:43:31.84\00:43:35.58
in the Word of God it
changed your life. Yes.
00:43:35.78\00:43:39.31
So much so that to make it
big now is not really important,
00:43:39.51\00:43:42.95
is it? No, it's not important.
00:43:43.15\00:43:44.49
So there's a
change going on - true -
00:43:44.59\00:43:46.82
in the direction we
choose to life our life.
00:43:47.02\00:43:49.42
And that's what the Bible
does: it gives us another view
00:43:49.62\00:43:52.96
to comprehend or to consider
00:43:53.16\00:43:55.53
to choose which way
you're going to go in life.
00:43:55.73\00:43:58.90
And if you're young,
the sooner you find that out
00:43:59.10\00:44:01.47
the better it is, isn't it?
00:44:01.67\00:44:03.00
Yes. When you start to
00:44:03.04\00:44:06.44
surrender to God,
to accept Him who He is
00:44:06.64\00:44:09.38
and to understand
Him and to love Him,
00:44:09.78\00:44:12.91
you have a change of attitude.
00:44:13.11\00:44:15.58
Yes. And a change of goal. True.
00:44:15.78\00:44:18.39
And that's what
you were experiencing.
00:44:18.59\00:44:20.09
True. All your priorities
that you had in the past
00:44:20.29\00:44:24.43
that are earthly, that
are temporary just goes away.
00:44:24.63\00:44:28.83
Hmm. And
therefore when I looked back
00:44:29.03\00:44:31.40
I said: "Why was I
running for riches?
00:44:31.60\00:44:35.70
For power? For fame? For
pleasure? Ease of life? "
00:44:35.90\00:44:41.01
"If I'm not going to die on
this earth and to life forever
00:44:41.41\00:44:45.15
in sin, it's a
different story. "
00:44:45.35\00:44:48.28
"But if it's going to
be 70 years on this earth,
00:44:48.48\00:44:51.45
what am I doing with my life? "
00:44:51.65\00:44:53.49
That's a question I
think we all have to look at
00:44:53.69\00:44:55.72
and answer because it does
give direction as to what we do.
00:44:55.92\00:45:00.30
So it's very important.
00:45:00.50\00:45:01.83
Some find it out
earlier, though, Dever.
00:45:02.00\00:45:04.10
Some find it out later. True.
00:45:04.30\00:45:06.00
And when we find out
later we look back and say...
00:45:06.20\00:45:08.87
You know, you were
brought up in a home where
00:45:09.07\00:45:12.17
they were trying to
convey that to you - yes -
00:45:12.37\00:45:14.51
and yet it
didn't happen, did it?
00:45:14.71\00:45:16.54
No, it didn't happen. How
old were you when you came
00:45:16.75\00:45:18.78
to Australia? I was maybe
28. Twenty-eight? So... Yes.
00:45:19.08\00:45:25.02
So you're still pondering
and then it took 28 years
00:45:26.15\00:45:30.29
to finally... for
that light to switch on.
00:45:30.49\00:45:34.83
Yes. And that's good because
00:45:35.03\00:45:38.47
no matter how old you are
God can switch the light on
00:45:38.67\00:45:41.60
if you just open
up yourself to Him.
00:45:41.80\00:45:44.21
Well so here you are in
Australia. You're working here.
00:45:44.41\00:45:47.04
You have now come
to understand God.
00:45:49.04\00:45:52.38
How long were you
actually in Australia?
00:45:52.58\00:45:53.98
Just for a few months.
00:45:54.18\00:45:55.68
In fact, the U-turn that I made
00:45:55.88\00:45:58.82
took place after a month
after landing in Australia.
00:45:59.02\00:46:03.53
So I really didn't get
into any company or whatever.
00:46:03.73\00:46:07.90
No. Hmm!
00:46:08.10\00:46:10.50
And so you now want to
tell your people about Jesus.
00:46:10.70\00:46:14.77
Yes. So what'd you do?
00:46:15.54\00:46:17.57
Yes, so therefore I
just wanted to share with you
00:46:17.77\00:46:20.31
another incident.
When I look back at my life
00:46:20.51\00:46:22.91
had I died, I mean... That's
it... curtains. That's it.
00:46:23.11\00:46:28.45
That's an important point.
00:46:29.25\00:46:31.12
Because I was a person
who really liked speed.
00:46:31.32\00:46:35.49
Not the drug but
to speed on the bike.
00:46:35.89\00:46:39.33
Yeah. Because I learned one
thing what my parents told me.
00:46:39.53\00:46:43.43
My father always told me
00:46:43.63\00:46:45.27
"Don't be a
loser in this world. "
00:46:45.47\00:46:47.77
Hmm. He said: "Son,
00:46:47.97\00:46:50.44
if you want to take
drugs, you want to drink,
00:46:50.84\00:46:54.74
you want to have many
girl- friends, bring them home.
00:46:54.94\00:46:57.55
Don't hide behind my back. "
00:46:57.75\00:46:59.61
Hmm. "But don't be a loser. "
00:46:59.81\00:47:01.92
"When you fall sick
by smoking or drinking
00:47:02.12\00:47:05.45
don't come to me. So
don't be a loser, son. "
00:47:06.96\00:47:10.03
Hmm. And therefore
during my wayward life
00:47:10.23\00:47:13.53
never touched
drugs, wine or smoking
00:47:13.93\00:47:18.13
or girlfriends. No.
00:47:18.33\00:47:20.20
But I was just a rebel.
00:47:20.40\00:47:22.60
Do everything opposite
what the Lord wants me to do.
00:47:22.80\00:47:26.61
And because of this spirit
00:47:26.81\00:47:29.14
for 12 to 15 years I
never stepped in the church.
00:47:29.34\00:47:33.38
Hmm. I stopped going to church
00:47:34.65\00:47:37.65
because I was a person
that fought for justice.
00:47:38.55\00:47:44.53
When I looked how my dad and
mom worked in the organization
00:47:44.93\00:47:49.80
I always looked at people
who are working as holy men
00:47:50.30\00:47:54.17
in that time. They
don't make mistakes.
00:47:54.37\00:47:56.87
And whenever something
goes wrong in their workplace
00:47:57.37\00:48:00.94
I always say: "They have the
Bible but they don't practice
00:48:01.14\00:48:04.91
so I think this
religion is not correct. "
00:48:05.11\00:48:07.25
I had that attitude. Hmm.
00:48:08.08\00:48:10.25
So because of the
injustice done to my parents
00:48:10.45\00:48:13.46
I decided to
stop going to church.
00:48:13.86\00:48:17.03
What you were really
looking for was an excuse.
00:48:17.23\00:48:19.89
True. You were
trying to find something
00:48:20.10\00:48:23.16
that you could find...
that was at fault - yes -
00:48:23.37\00:48:27.40
so you could justify
your attitude - true -
00:48:27.60\00:48:30.87
of not wanting to be part of it.
00:48:31.07\00:48:32.84
So therefore I
didn't go to church.
00:48:33.24\00:48:36.91
And in that period of time I
used to have my friend's bike.
00:48:37.11\00:48:41.38
At that time he had
a new Kawasaki bike.
00:48:41.58\00:48:44.75
Kawasaki? Yes.
00:48:44.95\00:48:46.42
Fast bike? Fast bike!
00:48:46.62\00:48:48.79
My parents would not buy
me a bike. My father said:
00:48:48.99\00:48:51.99
"We love you so
much, but if you buy a bike
00:48:52.19\00:48:54.76
you will kill yourself.
" Do you know what I call
00:48:54.96\00:48:56.97
Australians who ride motor
bikes? Temporary Australians.
00:48:57.17\00:49:00.84
That's the term they
put for motorcycles. Yes.
00:49:01.50\00:49:03.91
True. So I had to
sneak out of the house
00:49:04.11\00:49:06.98
to get my friend's bike.
And one day I was driving
00:49:07.18\00:49:10.65
the bike very
fast but at a turn.
00:49:10.85\00:49:14.02
And as I turned
the next thing I saw
00:49:15.38\00:49:17.75
I was between the two
wheels of a trailer truck.
00:49:17.95\00:49:20.89
Because I was at an angle
00:49:21.29\00:49:23.49
I ran in and I could
see the chassis of the truck
00:49:23.69\00:49:27.10
next to my ear. And I
looked back. I could see
00:49:27.30\00:49:30.77
these huge wheels behind me.
00:49:30.97\00:49:32.63
But I do not know how
I just came out again.
00:49:33.03\00:49:35.90
So you slipped
under and came out?
00:49:36.10\00:49:38.11
And came out but I
didn't lose balance.
00:49:38.31\00:49:39.64
I was at the turn, and the
trailer truck was also turning.
00:49:39.84\00:49:43.38
It's a long trailer truck.
00:49:43.58\00:49:45.05
So I went in, and the
roads were not too even.
00:49:46.08\00:49:48.52
They were a bit bumpy.
00:49:48.72\00:49:50.12
So I bounced and
went inside at an angle
00:49:50.32\00:49:53.36
and came out. And
as I came back I said:
00:49:53.56\00:49:57.13
"It could only
have been an angel
00:49:57.33\00:49:59.29
that could have drawn
me out! " Brought you back.
00:49:59.49\00:50:01.76
If I died in that accident,
I mean I would be a lost man.
00:50:01.96\00:50:06.87
Hmm. So as I played back
my life I thanked the Lord:
00:50:07.07\00:50:11.44
"You had a purpose in
my life what I should do. "
00:50:11.84\00:50:15.81
And part of that purpose
was you went back to India.
00:50:16.21\00:50:19.81
Because we've got a
couple of photos. Um-hmm.
00:50:20.22\00:50:22.98
And... You met a
lady when you came back.
00:50:23.39\00:50:25.79
When you went back. Oh yes, yes!
00:50:25.99\00:50:27.76
I just want to jump to
this bit and then we'll go back
00:50:27.96\00:50:30.99
again - yes - 'cause
I don't want to miss it.
00:50:31.19\00:50:33.53
OK. You met
somebody. What's her name?
00:50:33.73\00:50:37.77
Her name is Virginia.
00:50:37.97\00:50:40.24
So I met her
through this Australian lady
00:50:40.64\00:50:43.20
in Australia. And
there she is with you.
00:50:43.41\00:50:45.84
Oh, yes... there she is.
00:50:46.24\00:50:49.21
And then we have
another photo, too,
00:50:49.41\00:50:50.95
with some family members. Yes!
00:50:51.45\00:50:53.95
That's my sister
and her two sons.
00:50:54.15\00:50:57.12
She lives in
Berrien Springs in America.
00:50:57.32\00:50:59.85
Hmm. That's our church in India
00:51:00.06\00:51:02.46
where we go to, and I'm
the elder of that church.
00:51:02.66\00:51:04.93
And you can see
Virginia is not a tall person.
00:51:05.33\00:51:08.06
Yes, not a tall
person. She's little.
00:51:08.46\00:51:11.37
She's like my
daughter-in-law. They're...
00:51:11.57\00:51:13.20
Good things come in small
pack- ages my folks used to say.
00:51:14.14\00:51:17.84
Yes... she is little.
00:51:18.04\00:51:20.08
So the family in Australia
00:51:20.98\00:51:25.71
gave me the address to
get in touch with her family.
00:51:26.11\00:51:30.02
And therefore when
I went back to India
00:51:31.39\00:51:33.19
her brother was into
ministry work. Um-hmm.
00:51:33.39\00:51:37.06
And we used to share a
lot of things, and that's how
00:51:37.26\00:51:39.26
we got to know each other
and eventually we got married.
00:51:39.46\00:51:43.97
That's a good point to
take a break here because,
00:51:44.17\00:51:46.60
you know, if you're
interested in what 3ABN's doing
00:51:46.80\00:51:50.97
and the stories that we're shar-
ing with you and the testimonies
00:51:51.17\00:51:53.81
this organization is totally
a non-profit organization.
00:51:54.01\00:51:57.85
It's based on your
prayers and faith in God
00:51:58.05\00:52:02.32
that He will provide the money.
And if you have been impressed
00:52:02.52\00:52:05.15
to maybe support this ministry,
00:52:05.35\00:52:07.99
we're going to do
an address roll here
00:52:08.19\00:52:10.43
that we'd like
you to take note of.
00:52:10.63\00:52:12.86
3ABN reaches all
around the world.
00:52:13.06\00:52:15.36
And you know, it's an
exciting thing to be part
00:52:15.56\00:52:18.23
of this ministry,
and you can be part of it
00:52:18.43\00:52:20.27
by your prayers and
financial donations.
00:52:20.67\00:52:23.04
Thank you for all you do
to help us light the world
00:53:17.96\00:53:20.43
with the glory of God's truth.
00:53:20.63\00:53:22.50
We're talking with
Dever Kujur. He's from India
00:53:25.33\00:53:28.74
and we're
listening to his testimony.
00:53:29.14\00:53:31.07
We got to the part, Dever,
where you came back to India
00:53:31.27\00:53:34.61
after visiting Australia.
00:53:34.81\00:53:36.38
And what I have to ask you is:
00:53:36.78\00:53:39.58
your mom and dad...
what was their response
00:53:39.78\00:53:42.22
with you coming
home as a Christian?
00:53:42.42\00:53:45.39
Yes. And so when I
was in Australia itself
00:53:45.79\00:53:49.22
I gave them a call and told
them: "I'm coming back home. "
00:53:49.42\00:53:52.76
And they said: "Wow!
That's good news for us. "
00:53:53.86\00:53:57.13
I said: "Yes. " So
they came to the airport.
00:53:57.53\00:54:00.27
Normally they would
not come to the airport
00:54:00.47\00:54:02.44
to receive me because
the flights would land early
00:54:02.64\00:54:04.91
in the morning. They were
at the airport to receive me.
00:54:05.11\00:54:08.14
And I embraced them
and they were so happy.
00:54:08.54\00:54:11.81
They said: "Son, yes,
you are back. " Welcome home!
00:54:12.01\00:54:16.35
"Welcome home...
you are back with us. "
00:54:16.55\00:54:18.39
Because always we
lived separate lives.
00:54:18.79\00:54:22.16
They knew, though I
stayed under one roof,
00:54:22.36\00:54:25.26
but they would go to church.
I would go to the university.
00:54:25.46\00:54:29.93
I would go out and do
all... Actually, one of the
00:54:30.13\00:54:31.90
points is, too, the motorcycle
event that you told us
00:54:32.10\00:54:35.30
about before. Yes. That
happened on a Sabbath morning,
00:54:35.50\00:54:38.24
didn't it?
00:54:38.44\00:54:39.81
No, that didn't happen on a
Sabbath morning. I think that
00:54:40.01\00:54:42.01
was on a Monday
- um-hmm - it was.
00:54:42.21\00:54:46.72
On a Monday. Usually on Sabbath
00:54:46.92\00:54:49.42
I would either go to
the university campus
00:54:49.62\00:54:52.65
where I studied. Or
since it is a very warm
00:54:52.85\00:54:56.73
weather on that day -
00:54:56.93\00:54:59.33
we didn't have any
air conditioning at home -
00:54:59.53\00:55:01.56
I would go to the theater be-
cause it's all air conditioned.
00:55:01.76\00:55:04.67
Yes. Get cool.
00:55:04.87\00:55:06.74
So you met your wife Virginia
- yes - and you got married.
00:55:07.94\00:55:13.91
So now you've got a
different direction.
00:55:14.11\00:55:16.34
Make big is not
part of the scene.
00:55:16.61\00:55:18.85
No! Becoming rich and famous?
00:55:19.05\00:55:20.75
You've obviously got
something different now.
00:55:20.95\00:55:23.69
Tell us just briefly,
just briefly, what it is
00:55:23.89\00:55:27.29
that you and your
wife decided to do. Yes.
00:55:27.49\00:55:29.52
In fact, my wife was
already exposed to the ministry
00:55:29.72\00:55:32.83
because of her brother. Um-hmm.
00:55:33.03\00:55:35.26
And of course she's
from the Catholic background.
00:55:35.46\00:55:37.97
She'll tell more about it.
00:55:38.17\00:55:39.87
And therefore, it was
easy for her to accept me.
00:55:40.94\00:55:44.17
In fact, they were converted
to the Lord before I would be
00:55:44.37\00:55:48.61
converted. So therefore
we joined hands together.
00:55:48.81\00:55:52.71
And then since I was
more into the media work
00:55:52.91\00:55:57.32
I decided to go to Europe
00:55:57.52\00:56:00.49
and then help another ministry
there with magazine layout
00:56:00.69\00:56:04.79
with illustrations
and for the cover design.
00:56:04.99\00:56:08.23
All that I did -
um-hmm - from India.
00:56:08.43\00:56:10.97
I went there, met the
people, came back to India
00:56:11.17\00:56:13.57
and online I would do the work.
00:56:13.77\00:56:16.07
So that's how I used
to do the ministry work
00:56:16.47\00:56:19.01
also for the people in
Europe. But also in India
00:56:19.21\00:56:22.21
we decided to set up
something for our people.
00:56:22.41\00:56:27.02
Um-hmm. And that is
where I will share with you
00:56:27.22\00:56:30.09
more later how our
approach is in India...
00:56:30.29\00:56:34.39
especially on the health work.
00:56:34.59\00:56:35.92
Because many people in
India are not in good health -
00:56:36.12\00:56:39.36
umm - and they
don't have much money.
00:56:39.56\00:56:42.16
Um-hmm. And when you
look at the people in India
00:56:42.36\00:56:44.50
there are people
who are VERY rich.
00:56:44.70\00:56:46.43
The disparity between the rich
and poor. People are very poor.
00:56:46.63\00:56:49.20
Yes! Very poor.
00:56:49.40\00:56:51.01
Just in the closing
few seconds, Dever - yes -
00:56:51.21\00:56:53.98
we've heard your
story: living a life
00:56:54.18\00:56:56.91
under the banner of being a
Christian as a young person.
00:56:57.11\00:57:00.55
What would you say to
someone that's viewing now
00:57:00.75\00:57:03.42
if you are not sure about
your faith. What would you
00:57:03.62\00:57:07.22
tell them if
they're a young-age person,
00:57:07.42\00:57:09.46
they don't sort of
want to follow mom and dad?
00:57:09.66\00:57:11.36
Yes, first of all
I will talk to them
00:57:11.86\00:57:14.76
and ask them:
"What is your calling? "
00:57:14.96\00:57:17.17
"What is your
purpose on this earth? "
00:57:17.57\00:57:19.93
Hmm. You know, with
young people I often
00:57:20.14\00:57:23.04
talk to them because
they want directions.
00:57:23.24\00:57:25.77
If you look at the
young people in India,
00:57:25.97\00:57:27.54
they only know to
become a doctor or an engineer
00:57:27.74\00:57:30.28
or computer
software... or flee to the USA.
00:57:30.48\00:57:34.52
That's all they're doing. Yes.
00:57:35.32\00:57:36.82
Well, you know what?
We're going to come back
00:57:38.15\00:57:40.22
because we know that this
is a great story that these two
00:57:40.42\00:57:42.79
have. Until the next
program: God bless you.
00:57:42.99\00:57:45.49