Participants: Jim Gilley & Danny Shelton (Host), C. A. Murray, Dan Houghton, Dan Jackson, Derek Morris, Frank Fournier, Harold Lance, Mark Finley
Series Code: NLLB
Program Code: NLLB012702
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00:08 Welcome back to Night Live.
00:10 We're talking about and dealing with contemplative prayer, 00:14 spiritual formation, emerging church, centering prayer. 00:18 Some of these issues that are facing 00:20 our church and our world, 00:21 and we're trying to pull the mask off as it were, 00:24 pull the cover off of these things. 00:26 So to define the terms and in this hour 00:29 hopefully to show you the dangers of moving 00:31 into some of these areas. 00:32 With me are Dan Jackson, 00:34 Frank Fournier, Mark Finley, Derek Morris, 00:37 Harold Lance, Dan Houghton. 00:41 Derek, you had a statement that you wanted to follow up 00:44 on a statement made in our first half by Frank. 00:46 I appreciated what Frank said. 00:48 He said, "When I'm preparing a sermon and." 00:51 No, Frank's not a pastor, but he preaches, lay preacher. 00:55 He said, "I read the scripture 00:56 and--and you're thinking about it. 00:59 You're mediating on the scripture. 01:01 You may be even if it's a story imagining the story 01:04 and what's happening in the story. 01:07 Jesus talking to the disciples on the Emmaus road." 01:09 Or whatever the story. 01:11 And--and you asked before the break, 01:13 "Is that meditation?" and my answer would be, 01:16 "That is Biblical meditation." 01:18 That's not this free floating imagining someone wandering 01:21 through a field with no basis we're testing the scripture. 01:26 And I wanna come back C.A. 01:28 to the caution at the beginning. 01:30 We don't wanna throw out old prayer, 01:33 throw out old meditation. 01:34 We want it to be Biblically based. 01:37 And that beautiful comment Desire of Ages, page 83 01:41 where Ellen White talks about that thoughtful hour each day, 01:44 contemplating the life of Christ. 01:46 She gives three beautiful promises. 01:49 She says, "When we do this, 01:51 our faith will be more constant and we need that. 01:57 Our love will be quickened 02:00 that's that personal experience with God." 02:03 And something Dan alluded to earlier. 02:06 We will be more deeply imbued with the spirit. 02:10 So the meditation on the word of God 02:14 and this experience of love, and vitality in the spirit 02:18 are not disconnected from each other. 02:21 So the promise is there as Frank modeled for us, 02:24 what it means to practice a Biblically based meditation. 02:29 Well, said. In the first half, 02:32 we sort of set the foundation. 02:33 This book that is in the packet 02:35 that has gone out talks about. 02:37 Well, the title is 'The Dangers of Contemplative Prayer'. 02:40 Let us now define that term and deal with 02:43 what are the dangers of moving into this area, 02:46 and as you said. Mark, you wanna start? 02:48 Sure. One of the terms that is often used 02:52 as centering prayer, and let's define 02:55 what centering prayer is and take a look at it. 02:59 Centering prayer is an attempt to center one's thoughts, 03:05 so that they will be free from all distractions. 03:09 In centering prayer, 03:11 an individual will choose a single word 03:13 repeat that word over and over again, 03:17 so their thoughts can be centered to ultimately entered 03:21 into what they would experience as the center 03:24 of their being where there is this immortal 03:27 something that they become one with. 03:31 There is a 14th century monk writer 03:35 who wrote a treaties on this idea of centering prayer 03:40 and he called it 'The Cloud of Unknowing.' 03:43 And I'll just quote one paragraph 03:46 from The Cloud of Unknowing' that I think will help define. 03:50 He said, "Take just a little word, 03:53 of one syllable rather than two, 03:58 with this word strike down every thought, 04:02 every kind of thought under the cloud of forgetting." 04:06 Now that's very strange when you think about it. 04:10 Is God's attempt in meditation to bypass the human mind, 04:16 so that we could strike down every thought? 04:20 In Eastern mysticism, the idea is to enter into the center 04:24 of your being by repeating something 04:26 over and over and over again, 04:29 so that you come to this point of centered oneness 04:33 with the eternal something within you 04:35 and you strike down every thought. 04:37 In the Bible, meditation, of course, 04:41 is not striking down every thought, 04:45 but focusing your thoughts on Christ, 04:48 His love, His greatness and His majesty. 04:51 It's fascinating that the Bible does use the word 04:54 'meditation' numerous times. 04:56 Ellen White uses the term 'meditation' 04:59 in fact over 569 times. 05:04 And that's rather interesting for Seventh-day Adventist. 05:06 She talks about meditation, 05:08 but what she says about meditation 05:10 is so incredibly rich, 05:12 and so in harmony with the Bible 05:14 and so far distinct from Eastern meditation. 05:18 She writes this about Enoch, 05:21 "The infinite, unfathomable love of God 05:24 through Christ became the subject of his meditation 05:29 day and night, and with all the fervor of his soul 05:32 he sought to reveal that love to the people 05:34 among whom he dwelt." 05:37 Enoch, the one translated without seeing death. 05:41 Enoch, the one who modeled a last generation 05:46 who'll see Jesus' come, often steped aside 05:50 from the rush and hurry of life 05:52 from the intense strain of life's activities. 05:56 And this Enoch commune with his God. 05:59 I personally, I'm convinced that at times 06:02 my life is too rushed and hurried. 06:05 At times the pressures are too great. 06:08 My danger personally and I wanna say this gently 06:13 is not Eastern meditation for me. 06:16 I've settled that long ago. 06:19 I'm not going anywhere near that. 06:21 But my danger is rushing too much, 06:24 being under too much pressure, being too hurried. 06:29 I need a lot more of those quiet moments with God. 06:34 Walking out and sitting by the brook, 06:37 opening the word, reading a few passages, 06:41 meditating on it, letting my soul be strengthened. 06:45 There is a counterfeit. There is a counterfeit, 06:49 and we wanna be aware of it. 06:52 But merely because there is a counterfeit, 06:55 the devil would not counterfeit 06:57 something if there were no genuine. 07:00 There is a genuine experience with God in meditation 07:04 that both the Bible and the writings of Ellen White 07:06 speak about, that's what we need to long for. 07:09 Well, said. Derek? 07:10 Want to come back to your request about 07:12 a definition of contemplated prayer or centering prayer. 07:16 And I went naively, 07:19 I'm going back now to the mid 1980s. 07:22 And I know I've been quoted in many places 07:24 about things I said. 07:26 But--but I like to--to publicly say that those things 07:29 were 25 years ago, so I'm thankful that 07:32 I've learned from my mistakes but--but 07:35 when I--when I first heard that I thought, 07:37 "Well, that's a good thing, 07:38 you know, to put all distractions aside." 07:41 Have you ever prayed and felt distracted 07:43 while you're praying? 07:44 So I didn't understand that what it was saying 07:48 is even good thoughts or even an insight 07:50 from the Holy Spirit should be put aside. 07:53 Centering prayer is an emptying of the mind. 07:57 It's not--it's not a meaningful prayer 08:00 where you're turning the radio off 08:02 and the television off and avoiding the distractions 08:05 it sometimes come to us. 08:06 That's not what it's talking about. 08:08 So naively sometimes back to what Harold said 08:11 about with good intentions, we wanna closer walk with God. 08:16 I walk down the road that sounds good, 08:18 but further I go down that road, I am hearing--no, 08:23 every thought you don't wanna think about anything, 08:26 you want to empty your mind. 08:29 Now, let me just say that even a good statement like Jesus 08:34 could become a vain repetition, 08:37 because sometimes Christian mantras, 08:42 you could say Jesus or Jesus, 08:44 son of David, have mercy on me. 08:46 Jesus, son of David, have mercy on me. 08:48 Jesus, son of-- this was a prayer 08:50 that someone of the wandering religious people would pray. 08:54 As I go back to scripture for example, Jesus said, 09:00 "In this manner therefore pray." 09:02 And gave us the Lord's prayer. 09:03 But I wanna challenge our viewers with the thought 09:06 that even Jesus didn't want us to repeat 09:09 that prayer over and over again. 09:11 If we're going to pray for an hour 09:13 or pray through the night, He just wanna suggest-- 09:15 He says, "In this manner." 09:17 In other words, I'm providing a model for prayer, 09:19 focusing first on God, your--hallowed your name, 09:24 your kingdom, your will. 09:25 And then presenting my needs, 09:27 give us, forgive us and deliver us. 09:30 It's a model for prayer. 09:31 But as I read my Bible, Jesus prayed many other prayers. 09:36 For example, the one that was quoted 09:38 in John 17 where He said, 09:40 "Father, the hour has come, glorify your Son." 09:42 That's not the Lord's prayer. 09:44 Or another place in Luke 10 where He says, 09:46 "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth." 09:50 That's not the Lord's prayer. 09:51 So it's a communing with God. 09:55 Didn't Ellen White speak of prayer as the opening 09:59 of the heart to God as to a friend. 10:03 That's not the emptying of your mind. Yes. 10:05 That's not pushing everything out. 10:07 So if you wanna simple definition, 10:12 Biblical prayer is a focusing of the mind on God, 10:16 it is intelligent and intelligible. 10:20 And I'm willing to test it by the scripture. 10:23 These forms of prayer which are non-biblical 10:29 want you to empty your mind to push all thoughts away 10:33 in order to somehow encounter the God who is within you. 10:37 So I think the-- the key there again. 10:40 Go back, look at the prayer life of Jesus. 10:42 Look at the teaching of Jesus. 10:44 And I wanna share one thing you've talked, Dan, 10:47 about reading the Bible. 10:48 And some of you know 10:49 I'm passionate about memorizing scripture. 10:52 I believe if you'll spend that thoughtful hour 10:55 with the word, if you'll fill your mind with the word. 10:58 I have seen it not only in my life, 11:01 but in the lives of godly women and godly men, 11:04 the more we fill our lives with the word, 11:06 the more our prayers are filled with the word of God, 11:11 because sometimes we say, Lord, I don't know what to say. 11:14 Didn't Jesus say that the Holy Spirit would help us? 11:18 Yeah, He will intercede for us 11:21 with groanings that cannot be uttered. 11:24 In another place though He says 11:26 that the spirit of Your Father will speak through you. 11:30 I don't think that's just some kind of vain babbling. 11:35 I think it's the scripture even in our prayer time 11:38 so that is totally different from emptying your mind 11:41 of all thoughts. 11:42 In fact, is opening your mind to the word of God, 11:45 letting God by His Spirit, bring that word to you 11:48 and praying in an intelligent and intelligible way 11:52 opening the heart to God as to a friend. 11:55 Well done. You know, I think, C.A., 11:59 the--there--there is a fundamental principle 12:02 that undergirds all of these. 12:04 And that is that the devil would help us 12:06 or would have us rather focus upon ourselves. 12:10 And so, whether it is in our spirituality or physical lives, 12:14 or our spiritual lives, the devil would have us 12:17 focus on who we are or what is within. 12:21 And there is always a problem with self focus. 12:24 And I think that's what I'm hearing Derek saying 12:27 when you're talking about that kind of prayer 12:30 where a person says, "I will now empty my mind, 12:33 so I can focus deep within myself 12:36 essentially become selfish." 12:38 In its essence, it becomes selfish, 12:40 its a part of self focus which is always wrong. 12:45 Mark, see I'll like to read one of the proponents 12:50 of centering prayer in contemplative prayer 12:55 as he tries to describe how to enter into it. 12:59 Then I'll like to analyze 13:01 what he says from a Biblical prospective. 13:04 So he is giving counsel 13:06 on how to enter into this centering prayer 13:09 and how to enter into this contemplative state, 13:11 and it gives four steps. 13:13 And I'm quoting directly from his book. 13:14 He says, "First, you sit comfortably 13:16 with your eyes closed, relax and quiet yourself. 13:21 Be in love and have faith in God." 13:23 Then he says, "Two, Choose a sacred word 13:26 that best supports your sincere intention 13:28 to be in the Lord's presence and open to His divine action 13:32 within you. Your word may be Jesus, 13:34 Lord, God, Savior, Abba, Divine, Shalom, 13:37 Spirit, Love, whatever your word is, 13:39 choose that word. 13:40 Let that word, three, be gently present as your symbol 13:44 of your sincere intention to be in the Lord's presence 13:47 and open to His divine action within you. 13:50 Whenever you become aware of anything." 13:52 Now this is interesting. 13:53 "Whether you become aware of thoughts, feelings, 13:56 perceptions, images, associations, 13:59 simply return to your sacred word, your anchor." 14:03 Another words, the idea is almost like self hypnosis, 14:09 you keep going over that word, 14:11 you try to get rid of every thought. 14:13 He says, "Every feeling, every perception, 14:16 every image and every association." 14:19 Now if you put your mind 14:20 in that state of empty neutrality, 14:24 is it not possible that the voice you hear 14:29 may not be the voice of God at all? 14:35 Is it possible that as you repeat that sacred word again, 14:38 and again, and again, and the devil bypasses 14:42 your rational cognitive thinking processes 14:46 and gives you an illusionary experience 14:50 that you feel warm and love and at peace. 14:55 But there is not the transformation of character 14:59 that comes from the Holy Spirit 15:02 impressing the word upon the mind. 15:05 I'm reminded of James 1:21, 15:11 "Anything that bypasses the mind 15:15 which is the essence of being created in the image of God 15:18 should be extremely concerning." 15:21 And it's also rather interesting when the disciples came to Jesus 15:25 and they said to Him, "Lord, teach us to pray." 15:28 He didn't say, "Sit here with your hands folded 15:31 and repeat this word over and over and over again." 15:35 In fact, Jesus said, 15:37 "Use vain not repetitions like the heathen do." 15:40 Jesus specifically instructed not to repeat a word 15:44 over and over and over again, but Jesus modeled prayer, 15:48 of course, in Luke 11 was that prayer in which He said. 15:52 He taught the Our Father. If you'll analyze that prayer, 15:56 He goes through the basic essence of life. 15:58 But I wanted to look at James Chapter 1 just for a moment. 16:01 In James 1:21-22, it says, 16:07 "Therefore lay aside all filthiness 16:11 and overflow of wickedness, 16:13 and receive with meekness" I love this. 16:15 "The implanted word, 16:17 which is able to save your souls." 16:19 The implanted word so what we're meditating on 16:23 is not looking at ourselves, 16:25 but we're focusing on the majesty and love of God. 16:28 Focusing on the Word of God, focusing on God's creation. 16:31 And there're times we meditate 16:33 about how God has led us in our lives. 16:36 You know, we have nothing to fear 16:37 unless we forget the ways He's led us. 16:39 So we think about the providences of God 16:41 and we praise Him for the ways He's led us 16:43 and guided us in our lives and thank Him for that. 16:46 Meditation in Christianity is never passive 16:52 it's always active and that's the key. 16:53 It's not passive neutrality in--in meditation. 16:57 It's an active meditation where the mind is actively 17:00 engaged with God. 17:02 And we're so actively engaged meditating on His wonder, 17:05 His works and creation. 17:07 We're so actively engaged in meditating on His words 17:10 so actively engaged in meditating at His goodness 17:13 that we are not distracted, 17:15 not because our minds are not empty, 17:17 but because they're filled with so many positive thoughts 17:21 of God's grace, love and goodness. 17:23 Well, said. Anyone else? Harold. 17:28 Why is this significant to the Biblical Christian? 17:32 And the reason it seems to me 17:34 that it's significant to the Biblical Christian 17:36 is that if these meditating processes 17:41 are true then all scripture is false. 17:45 All the promises of the Old Testament of a Messiah, 17:49 Jesus words Himself that He would come again 17:52 in the same way that He left. 17:54 His injunction to every Christian 17:57 to go to all the world and preach the gospel, 18:00 that's meaningless. 18:01 Paul's description of the Second Coming 18:04 and coming in the clouds of heaven, 18:06 that's all meaningless if you already have Christ 18:09 in your own processes where you can call Him up 18:12 anytime you want. 18:14 The promises of--of Hebrews 11 to those who went before 18:21 and their promise was delayed till we could join them. 18:24 That's all meaningless 18:26 if this contemplative concept is true. 18:31 And so why is it important to us to send out the warning, 18:37 because if they are deceived and they have missed the truth 18:43 of scripture and Jesus coming, 18:45 their souls are lost on a false god. 18:48 And so, that's why the A.S.I 18:52 and the Seventh-day Adventist Church 18:54 needs to call Christians back to His word, 18:59 so that they don't miss His blessing and His promises. 19:03 Well said. Now, as--as moderator 19:05 I am not supposed to know 19:06 I am allowed to give an opinion. 19:09 But allow me, there's one music. 19:12 In conjunct with what-- what Mark said, 19:14 it occurs to me that if one is engaging in an activity 19:19 not sanctioned by God, 19:21 a process that is not endorsed by God 19:23 and you're opening up your door, 19:25 your mind to whoever or whatever wants to come in, 19:29 not only is there a chance that Satan, may come in. 19:33 It occurs to me that it-- it's almost guaranteed 19:39 that Satan's gonna come in because you-- 19:40 you're involving yourself in a process 19:42 that is not endorsed by God. 19:44 So if God is not there then who is there? 19:48 Derek, you had something to say? 19:51 Another reason if we're really seeking that close relationship 19:54 with God and I'm sure many of our viewers 19:57 who are watching the program they're saying, 20:00 "I want to know God whom to know is life eternal." 20:05 The reason the Bible is so important is 20:07 daily reading of scripture that we've been speaking about. 20:10 It also enables us to recognize when scripture is misused. 20:16 You remember when Jesus was tempted, 20:19 Satan misused scripture in the second temptation. 20:25 I'm thinking of a comment that surely McClain made 20:29 when she said, "I am God. I am God." 20:34 Back to Mark's idea of finding the God within you. 20:37 And they said-- it says in the Bible, 20:40 "Be still and know that I am God." 20:44 And you say, "That's not what it means. 20:47 That's not what the Bible says." 20:49 But unless we know the word. 20:53 We hear it all the time people misquote the Bible 20:57 and make it say things that are not written therein. 21:01 So again the only way to avoid deception 21:07 is the light of God's word. 21:09 So when someone misquotes it, we'll say, 21:11 "No, that's not what it says. I--I've got to come back. 21:14 We'll pray like this put every thought at." 21:17 That's not what Jesus says. 21:19 He says, "After this manner pray." 21:22 That's--that's why the Bible is so important? 21:25 Frank? This type of deception 21:29 we've experienced 21:30 in the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the past. 21:32 Ellen White spoke of the alpha of apostasy. 21:36 She was speaking then of the pantheistic views that 21:40 Dr. Kellogg brought to fore in his living temple. 21:44 And then she said that she feared for her people, 21:48 our people in the future, because there was 21:52 what she called the omega of apostasy. 21:55 I cannot-- I cannot sit here 21:58 and say that this is what we're facing. 22:02 But I wonder what the potential 22:03 is if the warning is not given. 22:06 If we don't address this thing tonight. 22:08 If people do not know that this is happening 22:11 and it can sneak up on people, we've already seen that. 22:15 And so, the question is the expert 22:19 sitting around this table, what do you think? 22:23 Are we headed towards the omega of apostasy 22:26 in something like this? 22:30 Derek? Dan, did you have something also. Okay. 22:33 Ravi Zacharias who is a Christian apologist 22:36 used to be Hindu, high caste, expressed in an interview 22:42 I did with him for Ministry Magazine. 22:45 He expressed serious concern that these non-biblical ideas 22:52 were being observed into Christianity. 22:54 Ideas that were quite familiar to Buddhist and Hindus 22:58 and those in Eastern religions. 23:01 So in answer to Frank's question, 23:05 is it possible that this is a very present danger? 23:09 The answer is absolutely. 23:11 And--and it's not only a danger for this movement. 23:15 It is a danger for the entire Christian church. 23:19 In fact, it is a danger for our entire community 23:24 whatever country we live in. 23:26 So someone has to have the courage to say, 23:30 "First of all, we affirm you for seeking God. 23:35 We need God. We affirm you for desiring more than 23:40 just the materialism of this age and here is the path." 23:46 Here is the path. 23:47 And--and I would hope that as a result of the program, 23:52 people would say, "I was not only rebuked 23:56 because I was may be using some form of meditation 24:00 that wasn't right, or I've been praying this little mantra 24:03 that someone told me to pray, 24:04 but I was given constructive counsel based on the Bible 24:10 that can truly help me." 24:11 I would hope that every person 24:14 at the end of this program would say, 24:15 "I have some tools now that-- that can help me 24:19 and can also be a safeguard 24:23 when someone comes with a non-biblical teaching." Dan? 24:28 You know, we're getting down to the 24:29 where the rubber meets the road here 24:30 although it's been a wonderful, wonderful discussion tonight. 24:34 But I am sitting here thinking about the person 24:38 who may have headed down this wrong road, 24:41 because if you think well if it's Eastern mysticism, 24:44 I'm not gonna fall for that, but yet people are. 24:49 When Derek just talked about it being a danger 24:52 to our entire society. 24:53 I can tell you that right now from the research, 24:55 the facts, anybody who's thoughtful 24:58 and willing to look at the facts, 25:00 this movement is sweeping through 25:01 Protestant America right now. Okay, it is. 25:05 And if that is happening, 25:07 our Adventist is susceptible to it. 25:10 The facts are that we are. 25:12 And so if that is the case, 25:14 how has this woven itself into Christianity. 25:18 That's the question in my mind. 25:19 How has that happened, because if we know it's Eastern, 25:22 we're gonna say, "Okay. We don't-- 25:23 we're gonna stay away from that." 25:25 But this was so good, Derek, that it got you. 25:29 How is it that it's so good and who else can it get? 25:32 How can I be sure they won't get me? 25:34 And that's the question if I were viewing this 25:36 I'd wanna know. 25:38 I'd like to jump in soon but Dan, 25:39 I think you wanna go ahead, go ahead. 25:42 A number of years ago, C.A., 25:44 I was holding a series of evangelistic meetings. 25:48 And there were a group of people that showed up 25:52 to those meetings who were very excited about 25:55 what we were teaching. 25:56 And they asked for the opportunity to speak to us 25:59 right after the meeting was over. 26:01 And we went to speak with this group of people 26:04 and the leader of that group sat in front of me 26:07 and as he began to talk his voice changed. 26:11 It morphed into something different. 26:13 And I-- I started to apply 26:16 what I knew the scripture said to him. 26:19 And I--I asked him, I said, "Tell me the Bible says, 26:23 that there is no other name under heaven given among men 26:26 whereby we must be saved." 26:28 This man in this very changed morphed voice looked at me 26:33 and said, "But there is another one." 26:37 And then, I quoted this scripture. 26:38 I said, "This is from First John Chapter 4, 26:41 "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, 26:45 but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, 26:50 because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 26:53 And this is how you can recognize the spirit of God. 26:56 Every spirit that acknowledge that Jesus Christ 26:59 has come in the flesh is born of God. 27:02 And the principle there, and the principle 27:03 and answer to Dan's question, 27:05 so I am hearing something that is different-- 27:08 that is unique that appeals to my senses. 27:12 And how do I respond to that? 27:15 I must go to the word of God 27:17 and test it against the scriptures. 27:19 And if any truth leads me away from the belief 27:24 that our Lord Jesus came in the flesh, 27:27 the Son of God incarnate to speak to your life 27:30 and mine and to change us and transform us. 27:32 If they say anything else then it's just not of God at all. 27:36 So I think test everything by the word of God. 27:40 It doesn't matter how good the writing is, 27:42 how good the book is, how good the person sounds, 27:45 test everything by the word of God. Mark? 27:49 Sometimes a historical overview is helpful. 27:52 Dan raised a question earlier, 27:54 "Why is it that contemplative spirituality, 27:59 centering prayers entering into the Christian church?" 28:02 Let's go back and look at a little history. 28:04 In the Middle Ages, a group of people 28:06 called the Desert Fathers left mainstream society. 28:13 They were monks and hermits, 28:15 and they spent their life in meditation and prayer. 28:18 These Desert Fathers borrowed meditation techniques 28:26 from the East. In fact, 28:29 where they were in the deserts of--of Asia, Arabia. 28:34 In those deserts, they were not far from 28:37 the--the Buddhist areas and not far from some Hindu areas, 28:43 and so there was an amalgamation. 28:46 There was a borrowing. There was a sharing. 28:50 These Desert Fathers wrote 28:53 a great deal about meditation, contemplation. 28:57 So they took the philosophy of the East 29:00 and "Christianized" it. 29:04 The writings didn't make a great 29:06 deal of impact for many, many centuries. 29:12 In the 20th century and coming into the 21st century, 29:17 there were a group of Christians, 29:21 some leaders, thinkers who looked at the Christian church 29:25 and said the Christian church is not making 29:28 the impact in the world. 29:31 The Christian church has really not transformed the world. 29:37 Why is that true? 29:39 It's because Christians do not have the spirit of Jesus. 29:43 It's because these Christians don't have 29:45 an intimate walk with Christ, how can that be discovered. 29:49 And they went back and began to read the writings 29:51 of the Desert Fathers. 29:54 Some of these leaders actually begin to travel to Asia 29:58 and to look at meditation in Buddhism. 30:02 They begin to say, "How can we find the peace 30:05 that this folk have?" 30:06 Now it's interesting and I'm gonna quote 30:08 two of the leading proponents of contemplative spirituality. 30:13 And this is what they say, 30:15 "We--and this is one of the leading books on spirituality 30:21 today in the--in this tradition that we're talking about. 30:25 "We should not hesitate to take the fruit of old age wisdom 30:29 of the East and "capture" it for Christ. 30:33 Indeed, those of us who're in ministry 30:35 should make the necessary effort to acquaint ourselves 30:38 with as many of these Eastern techniques as possible." 30:42 And as I read that I thought, 30:44 "This would strange-- sound strange 30:46 to the Apostle Paul's ears who said 30:49 there is no other name under heaven." 30:51 As Dan quoted that we can be saved except Jesus. 30:53 This would seem very strange to the apostles 30:56 who preached a Jesus Christ who said, 30:59 "We've seen and handled of the word of God. 31:02 We preached to you Christ crucified." 31:05 Paul says in Galatians 6, 31:06 "I don't wanna know nothing about-- 31:08 nothing except Christ crucified." 31:11 These words would seem very strange to them, 31:14 but what happened? 31:17 When the Christian church fails 31:20 to preach a spirit filled word of God. 31:25 When Sunday pulpits or Sabbath pulpits 31:30 become filled with those who tell stories. 31:34 When the church members come week after week 31:36 and they are left barren. 31:39 When there is little life changing spirit 31:42 led power in the Christian church. 31:45 When our own lives are divorced of the spirit and weak. 31:50 When we're not on our knees seeking God and praying. 31:53 When our hearts are not broken over God's word. 31:56 When the church does not experience revival. 32:00 When the church itself is not revived, 32:02 then people are going to look some place else. 32:06 They are, and so we have a great responsibility 32:10 as church members, as Christians to know God, 32:14 to be filled with His spirit, 32:17 to allow genuine Christianity to break our hearts. 32:21 We have a great responsibility as Christian leaders 32:24 that every church service is filled with the spirit of God 32:27 that when people come there. 32:29 I'm reminded of a little boy who went to church one day. 32:35 His parents had never taken him before 32:38 and they thought it'd be nice culture for him 32:39 to go to church one day. 32:41 And so, he went home and after the church service, 32:45 he prayed for the first time and his prayer went like this, 32:49 "O Jesus, the praying was nice in church. 32:54 And O Jesus, I listen to that man 32:56 talk from upfront in church. 32:58 And Jesus, I like the food after church. 33:01 O Jesus, I wish You could have been there. 33:05 Jesus, I wish You could have been there." 33:08 If Christ does not show up in our personal lives. 33:11 If Christ does not show up in our church services, 33:15 young adults are going to walk away. 33:19 And God forbid, they look for spirituality 33:22 in Eastern mysticism because they haven't found it with us. 33:27 I was sharing a story with Dan before we came out 33:31 that I--I think I'll share right now. 33:34 Many years ago when I was-- was fairly new in ministry, 33:40 one day I stood up before my congregation of about 120 33:44 and I preached the sermon. 33:47 You know, we use the term "We laid an egg." 33:51 It was a horrible sermon. 33:54 And there was-- there were some reasons. 33:56 It was void of solid Bible study 33:59 and it was void of the Holy Spirit. 34:02 And it was one of those sermons, 34:03 it's the only time she's ever done it where I came away 34:07 from the pulpit and I saw my wife 34:10 and she reached out and touched me and said, 34:12 "It's okay, sweetie." 34:16 And you know, I made a determination, 34:19 I went back the next Sabbath to preach 34:23 and I look at my congregation and I said, 34:26 "There were 120 of you here last two Sabbath." 34:29 I spoke, I didn't preach I spoke for a half an hour 34:34 I wasted 60 hours of time last Sabbath morning, 34:38 I will never do this again. 34:40 And what struck me after that 34:43 and has always remained with me to this day is that 34:46 when I stand up to preach, there is a divine appointment. 34:50 God wants to speak through us and as pastors, 34:54 we have a responsibility to root our sermons 34:57 and our thinking in the word of God to ensure that 35:01 we have personally encountered Him, 35:03 we've studied the word. 35:05 And when we come to preach to people 35:07 and speak to people and lead in our congregations, 35:10 we come loaded for bear so to speak. 35:13 We become excited about the message 35:15 and we reveal the word of God as-- 35:16 as we find it in scripture and then, 35:19 as we find commentary in the Spirit of Prophecy 35:21 and other Christian commentators 35:23 and Adventist commentators 35:25 who can bless us and bless others. 35:27 Amen. Your wife is kind. 35:29 My wife simply says, "Not enough Jesus." 35:32 Well, said. Dan and then, we'll come to Derek. 35:35 Well, you know, I really appreciate that story, 35:38 Ellet Jackson, because I tell you what I think 35:41 it is a sacred moment when a layperson, 35:45 a lay preacher or an ordained 35:47 Seventh-day Adventist minister, when a minister stands 35:49 before God to bring and break the bread, 35:52 that's an awesome moment. 35:54 And it's true that there are lots of young people 35:58 and older people for that matter that are not feeling fed. 36:01 They say, "Let's go look someplace else." 36:02 And maybe that's one of the reasons 36:04 why in the clever disguise that the devil has used in this 36:11 that actually people are buying into a Christianity 36:14 that is laced with Eastern mysticism. 36:18 And we're-- we are deluding ourselves 36:22 if we think it's not happening in our midst. 36:25 And that's where I think the danger is. 36:26 I'm so glad we're having this meeting tonight 36:28 to talk about it, because yes, 36:29 we must fill the void with the truth. 36:32 That's the best way to deal with the counterfeit 36:34 is to fill the moment with the truth 36:36 and I really resonate with that. Derek? 36:40 Dan, I wanna thank you for your story when that first-- 36:43 there was that group came to your meetings. 36:46 And, you know, you saw something there, 36:48 but I want to remind our viewers just in case 36:51 they missed it that you responded with scripture. 36:57 Now, I have a very simple question to ask our viewers, 37:01 "How did Dan know the scripture 37:05 that should be used in that situation?" 37:08 And the answer is you had filled your mind 37:11 with the word of God. Sometimes as a Christian we say, 37:15 "My memory is so weak, you know, I can't remember." 37:20 Don't be stressed about that. 37:23 Jesus said, "The help with the Holy Spirit, 37:27 the Father will send in my name. 37:28 He'll bring it to your remembrance." 37:30 If you had been careless and had nothing 37:33 but your subjective experience with God, 37:39 how do you determine that yours is right 37:42 and his is wrong? 37:43 Everything is totally subjective. 37:47 But God safeguarded you and your community back to 37:53 why the word of God so important. 37:55 Through the word that He had given you 37:58 and He helped you. 38:00 And I think we need to understand. 38:02 Dan, you've talked about the seriousness of this. 38:05 We have to see this in the context 38:07 of the Great Controversy. 38:09 Satan knows his time is short. 38:13 Does it not seem that this whole contention 38:16 is becoming more intense than even two decades ago. 38:22 I believe that that Satan is in a panic mode 38:26 and he's doing whatever he can. 38:28 And it would be tragedy, Dan, 38:31 if--if the spiritual vitality of our churches 38:36 were so anemic that that young or old 38:41 felt they had to go to some other new age festival 38:46 to find some spiritual meaning. 38:48 So it's not enough to hold up warning signs and say, 38:54 "This isn't Biblical prayer. 38:55 This isn't Biblical meditation." 38:58 Listen to the testimonies of those 39:00 who may have gone down the wrong road 39:02 and seen they were in the wrong place 39:03 and come back, that's not enough. 39:06 We have to experience a life changing relationship with God 39:12 personally and in our churches which is centered in the word 39:16 and in Jesus that will strengthen those 39:20 who come to worship, otherwise who is responsible 39:26 when they wander away. 39:28 Well, we could blame them or we could ask ourselves, 39:33 "Did God want to bring some revival 39:37 and reformation in our hearts that, 39:40 that both young and old would see that 39:44 genuine's Biblical spirituality lived out in our lives." 39:49 Thank you so much, Derek. I--I really resonate with that. 39:51 And C.A, I'd like to kind of summarize 39:54 why we've come tonight 39:55 and make another observation if I could. 39:59 We've looked tonight at a contrast between 40:04 Biblical spirituality and things like contemplative prayer, 40:07 centering prayer and Eastern mysticism. 40:09 We said that there's a difference in the nature of man. 40:12 Biblical Christianity talks about the fallen nature of man. 40:16 Eastern mysticism talks about the God within you. 40:19 We've said there was a difference in the idea 40:23 of where you look what you look within yourself 40:27 or you look to Jesus. 40:29 Whether you have a self centered approach to spirituality 40:33 or approach that you're looking out of yourself. 40:35 We've also said that there's a difference between 40:38 Eastern mysticism which is largely experience based 40:41 and the Christian Biblical spirituality that is word based. 40:47 And we pointed out that all of our experience 40:49 has to be tested by the word. 40:51 We've looked also at the fact that meditation is Biblical 40:58 and contemplation is Biblical, 41:00 but its contemplating and meditating on God's works, 41:03 God's wisdom, God's wonder, God's majesty 41:09 and Christian meditation always focuses on an active mind, 41:13 not a passive mind. 41:15 We've seen as well tonight that the-- 41:18 that Eastern mysticism is accepted by those 41:22 by their own very acknowledgement and ignition. 41:26 And in fact, they feel that 41:27 the meditation techniques of Buddhism and Hinduism 41:30 ought to be introduced and sanctified 41:32 into the Christian church if you can say that 41:35 which I think is an anomaly in itself. 41:37 And we talk about this idea of centering prayer 41:40 repeating a word and keeping on repeating that, 41:42 how it's a form of self hypnosis in the minds. 41:44 They kind of summarizes where we are. 41:46 There's one other major aspect. And I wanna introduce it here. 41:52 And I'll introduce it by the form of a question 41:55 and then attempt to answer the question. 41:58 Is it true that the group that crucified Jesus 42:03 prayed and studied the Bible? 42:07 The Pharisees spent a lot of time praying 42:12 even in their teens they had memorized. 42:15 By the time they were teenagers 42:16 the first five books of the Bible. 42:18 So they did study the Bible and they did pray. 42:22 In fact, the Pharisees thought they really knew the Bible, 42:26 but they crucified Jesus. 42:28 What did they miss and what did the Desert Fathers miss 42:33 when they separated themselves from society 42:37 and went out and lived in the desert 42:39 or take Simeon Stylites who lived on that pillar 42:42 for what was it is 40 years. 42:45 He wouldn't--his food was passed up to him on this pillar. 42:49 The Desert Fathers said, "The world is evil. 42:52 We have to separate ourselves from it." 42:55 And so, they went out and lived in the deserts. 42:57 I'd like to suggest this, that the Desert Fathers 43:00 had a very mistaken view of Christianity. 43:05 And the Pharisees had a very mistaken view of Christianity, 43:09 that Christian growth comes with prayer, 43:11 Bible study and service. 43:14 If you leave witness and service out, 43:17 Jesus blended His life between Bible study, 43:20 prayer and service. Christ blended His life 43:22 between the mountain and the multitude. 43:25 And so, the essence of Christianity 43:27 is not merely praying and studying the Bible, 43:30 so that I can be saved. 43:32 The essence of Christianity is focusing 43:35 on a relationship with Jesus and His love 43:39 so overflows our lives that we wanna reach out 43:41 and share His love with others. 43:43 May I suggest that Jesus said, "Follow me, 43:47 and I'll make you fishers of men." 43:49 That without a desire to witness, 43:51 without a desire to do soul winning, 43:53 without a desire to reach out 43:54 and touch somebody else with God's love. 43:56 Without a desire to share the message of Christ 43:59 that's where the Adventist church is unique, 44:04 because it calls men and women. 44:07 It calls its members to share the gospel of Christ 44:10 and the setting of messages of Three Angels in Revelation 44:13 with every nation, kindred, tongue and people. 44:16 So we are not simply interested as Christians 44:19 in finding a spot off in the mountains 44:22 where we can meditate and pray and save ourselves. 44:25 We are passionate about sharing this love of Jesus 44:28 with the world. We're focused on mission. 44:31 Our prayers and Bible studies fuel our mission 44:35 and our desire to share Jesus. 44:37 Frank? 44:38 If I can just add something here, 44:40 I don't want to sound like a contradiction 44:43 and it's true what Pastor Finley is saying 44:46 Bible study and prayer leads to service. 44:50 But I also understand that Bible study, 44:53 prayer and service all three could be done legalistically. 44:57 And in answering the question what did they miss, 45:01 they actually simply miss God. 45:03 They did religion according to their understanding. 45:06 This is what they understood religion was 45:09 And they could get a high out of their religion by meditation 45:13 and by self hypnosis because something 45:16 communicated with them and gave them a high. 45:19 So they simply practiced stuff. 45:23 They were religious in whatever context 45:26 that they were religious. 45:28 And I think that's a danger for ourselves as well. 45:31 When we study the Bible and we pray and we serve, 45:35 we can do that mechanically or we can do 45:37 that in conjunction with God personally. 45:40 And there is a difference I think. 45:43 All right. We'll just take the walk down the aisle. 45:45 We'll go with Derrick, Harold and then Dan. 45:48 I wanna thank you, Mark, for that crucial insight 45:52 because a dynamic relationship with God never stays 45:58 just between God and the individual. 46:00 It always will be manifested in service, in mission. 46:05 And I often wondered why Jesus when He send this out, 46:10 "Harvest is great, the labors are few." 46:12 He said, "Pray that God would send out labors, 46:16 throw out labors into His harvest." 46:18 The next thing He said was, "Go your ways, 46:20 I send you out as lambs." 46:24 And I think that mission 46:31 because when we go out in Jesus' name, 46:34 we realized that we're not that strong 46:36 and we're not that wise. 46:38 We have to completely depend on the good shepherd, 46:43 we're just lambs. 46:45 And I think that if we're 'just looking at ourselves, 46:49 Frank, even in reading the Bible and prayer, 46:52 it will stop, it will wither and it will die. 46:55 But if we're going out, obedient to Jesus' commission, 47:01 it will constantly keep us on our knees before God 47:05 praying for the Holy Spirit to be with us and in us. 47:08 Thanking God, Dan, for those times 47:10 when we receive wisdom by the spirit 47:13 as you did in that situation. 47:15 Constantly experiencing the freshness 47:18 and the vitality that I believe if we talk about 47:22 our young people I think that's what they're looking 47:23 for and they're looking to see it in us. 47:25 But thank you for reminding us that as we go out in mission 47:31 that we're constantly realizing that need 47:35 for that daily experience with God, prayer, 47:38 and Bible studying, and communion with Him. 47:42 Harold. I think we need 47:45 to look at what has happened within us 47:49 that has led to the infiltration 47:53 into the Christian world of these things. 47:56 And we need to recognize that it's the play 47:59 out of the Great Controversy thing. 48:01 And what should it do, should we be defensively 48:04 in a mechanical adversarial way. 48:07 I think what it should do is bring us back 48:10 to the realization that there is no truth except God 48:15 and His word as we are driven back to His word, 48:19 we need to recognize 48:20 that it's only by His grace that we're saved. 48:24 And that we may have not communicated 48:26 that as well as we should have done to others. 48:29 And that we shouldn't be gotten off track by that. 48:33 But we as Biblical Seventh-day Adventist Christians 48:37 we need to know that we're deters to all men, 48:41 because we know things they don't know. 48:43 We know that Jesus is coming soon. 48:46 We know that we are given the task of giving to the world 48:51 the Three Angels' messages because 48:52 nobody else in the world is doing that or will do that. 48:56 And that's the task that we have. 48:58 And I think that out of this really crisis 49:02 that has come to Christianity that it should bring us back 49:06 to the word and a reinvigoration of what God has asked us 49:10 to do and be committed to do that in truth 49:14 and in purity and humility. 49:18 Dan. It's interesting that Mark 49:22 made the comment that he made about service 49:25 and it's been echoed down the line here. 49:28 So true we're at the A.S.I convention. 49:30 And at A.S.I, A.S.I members are all about 49:33 putting principles into action. 49:35 And it is absolutely essential no question about that. 49:39 And I appreciated what Harold just said about humility. 49:43 You know, I sit up here and I acknowledged 49:45 that I'm a sinner saved by grace. 49:47 I don't say anything about these topics in any kind 49:50 of a holier than now or sanctimonious way. 49:54 I look at this and I just-- my eyes open wide and I say, 49:57 "Wow. Wow." 50:00 And I have a couple of thoughts that come into my mind 50:04 that I wanna get expressed here, C.A. Number one, 50:08 I've talked to lots of people over the course the last years, 50:11 we've been preparing and looking 50:12 and digging into some of this topic. 50:14 I've talked to pastors. I've talked to laypeople. 50:16 I've talked to leaders. I had one person say to me, 50:20 "My, once they'd looked at it. 50:22 Who want this touch?" had that statement made to me? 50:27 I'd a another statement made by a person who said, 50:29 "Wow, you know, whenever I looked 50:31 at the terms back 20 years ago, I interpreted those terms 50:35 based upon what I understood. 50:37 And it was not until I looked at the facts 50:39 in the words of this very people saying 50:41 what those words meant that I realized 50:44 that I had made a mistake." 50:46 And I sit back and I think about pastors. 50:48 Now, I'm a layman. 50:50 I'm a businessman. I run a ministry. 50:53 But I know a lot about pastors, you see, I'm a pastor's son. 50:58 Five of my uncles are Seventh-day Adventist ministers. 51:01 Four retired, one still in ministry. 51:04 I have two brothers that are Seventh-day Adventist ministers. 51:06 And I've a son that was recently ordained 51:07 as a Seventh-day Adventist minister. 51:09 When I was a kid, we used to go to family reunions 51:11 that it seemed like workers' meeting. 51:13 I know how pastors think. 51:15 I know what's going on with that. 51:17 And I know the lonely life that can be in the challenged 51:19 that you sometimes face at the door afterwards 51:21 as people criticize this or that. 51:26 But I just wanna say something to any pastor 51:28 that may be listening to this right now. 51:29 If you find yourself out on enchanted ground, 51:32 because of a mistaken road that has been taken, 51:37 because of this. 51:38 I urge you to come back off of that 51:40 and get back on the solid 51:42 ground of the word of God. 51:44 And I also wanna say something to any layperson, 51:47 church member, I'm a head elder in my local church. 51:50 If you're sitting out there and you think, 51:52 "Oh, oh, I've heard my pastor talk about 51:54 this or that and I'm gonna check him out." 51:57 I wanna urge you to be really, really careful with this. 52:00 It's not our job as laypeople to go and, 52:03 you know, work over our pastor 52:05 because we think he or she may be 52:06 heading down the wrong road. 52:08 I wanna urge you as a layperson 52:10 to be supportive of your pastor. 52:12 I want you to look at this and say, 52:13 "You know, I'm discovering 52:15 this fine delegate ways to ask questions." 52:18 But give that person a chance 52:20 to come back off of this and yourself. 52:22 If you're a layperson and have gone down this road, 52:24 please come back. 52:26 There's a God who's waiting 52:27 and who wants us to fill our lives 52:29 with all these good things 52:30 we've all been talking about tonight. 52:31 And there's no reason to go down this road. 52:34 The facts are clear if you're honest 52:36 and you're willing to look at the facts, 52:37 the facts are absolutely clear, just look at them. 52:40 We're not telling you, 52:41 we're just simply turning the light on, 52:42 so that you can see for yourself. 52:44 Our pastors are intelligent people. 52:46 Our laypeople are intelligent people, just look. 52:50 I wondered, C.A, why if I can use it, 52:53 why God allowed me to go down 52:55 that path 27 years ago. 52:57 And some of the things that I've said 53:00 or wrote 25 years ago have caused some confusion. 53:05 I wanted to say that first of all, 53:08 we ought to check and see if people still believe 53:10 those things or if that's something 53:12 that they believe 20 years ago. 53:14 I think we need to be careful 53:16 that we're not attacking people, 53:18 but praying for them and encouraging them. 53:22 I think we also need to realize that maybe some of the mistake 53:25 we've made and here I am sitting here on the panel tonight, 53:28 sharing my passion about examine everything carefully 53:32 and holdfast to that which is good, 53:34 that even may be some of the mistakes 53:36 we made in the past can give us credibility 53:39 to be able to speak to sisters and brothers 53:41 in Christ and say, "I didn't have 53:44 that intentions when I took that path." 53:47 And I'm not accusing you of having bad intentions. 53:51 I believe that you're genuinely seeking a closer walk with God. 53:57 But here are the dangers. 53:59 And here's the foundation that we need. 54:01 I think if we comments Harold said 54:03 with the spirit of humility and with the spirit of love. 54:08 We speak the truth, but we speak it in love. 54:11 And we also not accuse people without finding out 54:17 if they still believe those things or not 54:19 because certainly, there may have been things 54:21 that we held 30 years ago that we don't hold now. 54:24 And if we come with that humble spirit, 54:28 I believe the Spirit of God will honor that, 54:30 will honor our testimony. 54:32 And we'll speak to the hearts of those people 54:34 that we share with and they'll see that 54:36 we're not out to attack them, but to love and support them 54:39 and to encourage them with us on a journey 54:43 that's based solidly in the word of God. 54:47 Well done. I wanna do two things. 54:50 Mark, I think I want you 54:51 to close in prayer in just a moment. 54:54 And as our President of North America, 54:57 I want you to make a statement. 54:59 I'm thinking, you know, 55:00 when we look at the life of our pioneers, 55:03 they've made mistakes, you know, 55:05 they grew in grace and in knowledge of the word 55:07 and they may change. So I don't think-- 55:09 we should hold anyone hostage for what they were. 55:12 It's where you're going that counts. 55:13 And in Christ, you got a future. 55:16 Christ washes all the path--past. 55:18 I recall just a little bit ago reading 55:21 some quotes by Ellen White 55:22 on our attitude towards new light. 55:25 She says this, "Just because the waters are not troubled 55:29 and the church is sailing on tranquil seas, 55:31 don't delude yourself into thinking 55:34 that everything is fine in the church." 55:35 Because no one's raising any questions, 55:37 that doesn't necessarily mean 55:39 that we're going in the right path. 55:41 She says, "Trials come to the church 55:43 for one reason only to send us back to the word." 55:46 Whenever these things come, we have to go back to the word. 55:50 It is hubris and egotistical to believe that those things 55:54 that affect Protestantism will not affect in some way 55:59 the Seventh-day Adventist church. 56:00 We are not immune to those things. 56:02 The truth is when Protestantism sneezes, 56:06 certain Adventists catch cold, that's the truth. 56:10 The inoculation is going back to Jesus, 56:15 going back to the word and studying 56:17 to show yourself approved. 56:19 These things will come, 56:20 brethren think it's not strange concerning 56:23 the fiery trial which are to try you 56:25 as though some strange thing happened. 56:27 They're gonna come, but the answer our safety 56:30 has is now will always be in Christ Jesus. 56:35 Elder, if you can give us 30 seconds 56:36 that I wanna go out with Mark's prayer. 56:38 Just something very simple, and that is I remember 56:41 the prayer that Jehoshaphat prayed 56:43 in the steps of the temple in Jerusalem 56:45 when the nation was in deep trouble. 56:48 He raised his voice and said, "We do not know 56:51 what to do with this vast enemy that has come against us, 56:54 but our eyes are upon You. 56:57 Let us never trust ourselves in our own wisdom. 57:00 Let us always turn to God and to His word." 57:03 When there are questions, go to the word. 57:05 When there are troubles, go to the word. 57:07 Let's recognize that in ourselves we're very frail. 57:12 As Dan said, "I'm a sinner saved by grace." 57:15 Let's turn to God and focus on Him and His word, 57:18 and He will bring us off more 57:20 than victors through Jesus Christ. Amen. 57:23 Mark, if we can go out in prayer. 57:25 Let's pray together. Father in Heaven, 57:27 thank you that You long to have a experience with us 57:32 that is intimate and deep, even more than 57:37 our feeble hearts long to know You. 57:39 We're thankful that You are a God of immense love. 57:44 And we're thankful that You long to know us. 57:48 Father, we wanna be done with any false 57:52 forms of religious experience 57:55 that nearly lead us to trust in ourselves. |
Revised 2014-12-17