Welcome back to Night Live.
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We're talking about and dealing
with contemplative prayer,
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spiritual formation, emerging
church, centering prayer.
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Some of these
issues that are facing
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our church and our world,
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and we're trying to
pull the mask off as it were,
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pull the cover
off of these things.
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So to define the
terms and in this hour
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hopefully to show
you the dangers of moving
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into some of these areas.
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With me are Dan Jackson,
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Frank Fournier, Mark
Finley, Derek Morris,
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Harold Lance, Dan Houghton.
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Derek, you had a statement
that you wanted to follow up
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on a statement made in
our first half by Frank.
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I appreciated what Frank said.
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He said, "When I'm
preparing a sermon and."
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No, Frank's not a pastor,
but he preaches, lay preacher.
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He said, "I read the scripture
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and--and you're
thinking about it.
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You're mediating
on the scripture.
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You may be even if it's
a story imagining the story
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and what's
happening in the story.
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Jesus talking to the
disciples on the Emmaus road."
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Or whatever the story.
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And--and you
asked before the break,
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"Is that meditation?"
and my answer would be,
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"That is Biblical meditation."
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That's not this free floating
imagining someone wandering
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through a field with no basis
we're testing the scripture.
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And I wanna come back C.A.
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to the caution at the beginning.
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We don't wanna
throw out old prayer,
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throw out old meditation.
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We want it to be
Biblically based.
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And that beautiful
comment Desire of Ages, page 83
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where Ellen White talks about
that thoughtful hour each day,
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contemplating
the life of Christ.
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She gives three
beautiful promises.
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She says, "When we do this,
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our faith will be more
constant and we need that.
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Our love will be quickened
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that's that personal
experience with God."
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And something Dan
alluded to earlier.
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We will be more deeply
imbued with the spirit.
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So the meditation
on the word of God
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and this experience of
love, and vitality in the spirit
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are not
disconnected from each other.
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So the promise is there
as Frank modeled for us,
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what it means to practice a
Biblically based meditation.
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Well, said. In the first half,
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we sort of set the foundation.
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This book that is in the packet
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that has gone out talks about.
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Well, the title is 'The Dangers
of Contemplative Prayer'.
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Let us now define
that term and deal with
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what are the dangers
of moving into this area,
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and as you said.
Mark, you wanna start?
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Sure. One of the
terms that is often used
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as centering
prayer, and let's define
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what centering prayer
is and take a look at it.
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Centering prayer is an attempt
to center one's thoughts,
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so that they will be
free from all distractions.
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In centering prayer,
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an individual will
choose a single word
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repeat that word
over and over again,
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so their thoughts can be
centered to ultimately entered
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into what they would
experience as the center
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of their being where
there is this immortal
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something that
they become one with.
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There is a 14th
century monk writer
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who wrote a treaties on
this idea of centering prayer
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and he called it
'The Cloud of Unknowing.'
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And I'll just
quote one paragraph
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from The Cloud of Unknowing'
that I think will help define.
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He said, "Take
just a little word,
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of one syllable rather than two,
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with this word
strike down every thought,
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every kind of thought
under the cloud of forgetting."
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Now that's very strange
when you think about it.
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Is God's attempt in meditation
to bypass the human mind,
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so that we could
strike down every thought?
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In Eastern mysticism, the
idea is to enter into the center
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of your being by
repeating something
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over and over and over again,
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so that you come to this
point of centered oneness
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with the eternal
something within you
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and you strike
down every thought.
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In the Bible,
meditation, of course,
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is not striking
down every thought,
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but focusing your
thoughts on Christ,
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His love, His
greatness and His majesty.
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It's fascinating that
the Bible does use the word
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'meditation' numerous times.
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Ellen White uses
the term 'meditation'
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in fact over 569 times.
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And that's rather interesting
for Seventh-day Adventist.
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She talks about meditation,
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but what she
says about meditation
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is so incredibly rich,
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and so in harmony with the Bible
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and so far distinct
from Eastern meditation.
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She writes this about Enoch,
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"The infinite,
unfathomable love of God
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through Christ became
the subject of his meditation
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day and night, and with
all the fervor of his soul
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he sought to reveal
that love to the people
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among whom he dwelt."
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Enoch, the one
translated without seeing death.
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Enoch, the one who
modeled a last generation
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who'll see Jesus'
come, often steped aside
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from the rush and hurry of life
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from the intense
strain of life's activities.
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And this Enoch
commune with his God.
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I personally, I'm
convinced that at times
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my life is too
rushed and hurried.
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At times the
pressures are too great.
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My danger personally
and I wanna say this gently
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is not Eastern
meditation for me.
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I've settled that long ago.
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I'm not going
anywhere near that.
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But my danger is
rushing too much,
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being under too much
pressure, being too hurried.
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I need a lot more of
those quiet moments with God.
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Walking out and
sitting by the brook,
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opening the word,
reading a few passages,
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meditating on it,
letting my soul be strengthened.
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There is a counterfeit.
There is a counterfeit,
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and we wanna be aware of it.
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But merely because
there is a counterfeit,
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the devil would not counterfeit
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something if
there were no genuine.
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There is a genuine experience
with God in meditation
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that both the Bible and
the writings of Ellen White
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speak about, that's
what we need to long for.
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Well, said. Derek?
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Want to come back
to your request about
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a definition of contemplated
prayer or centering prayer.
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And I went naively,
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I'm going back
now to the mid 1980s.
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And I know I've been
quoted in many places
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about things I said.
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But--but I like to--to
publicly say that those things
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were 25 years ago,
so I'm thankful that
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I've learned from
my mistakes but--but
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when I--when I first
heard that I thought,
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"Well, that's a good thing,
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you know, to put
all distractions aside."
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Have you ever
prayed and felt distracted
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while you're praying?
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So I didn't understand
that what it was saying
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is even good
thoughts or even an insight
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from the Holy
Spirit should be put aside.
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Centering prayer is
an emptying of the mind.
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It's not--it's not
a meaningful prayer
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where you're
turning the radio off
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and the television off
and avoiding the distractions
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it sometimes come to us.
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That's not what
it's talking about.
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So naively sometimes
back to what Harold said
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about with good intentions,
we wanna closer walk with God.
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I walk down the
road that sounds good,
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but further I go down
that road, I am hearing--no,
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every thought you don't
wanna think about anything,
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you want to empty your mind.
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Now, let me just say that
even a good statement like Jesus
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could become a vain repetition,
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because sometimes
Christian mantras,
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you could say Jesus or Jesus,
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son of David, have mercy on me.
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Jesus, son of
David, have mercy on me.
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Jesus, son of--
this was a prayer
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that someone of the wandering
religious people would pray.
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As I go back to scripture
for example, Jesus said,
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"In this manner therefore pray."
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And gave us the Lord's prayer.
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But I wanna challenge
our viewers with the thought
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that even Jesus
didn't want us to repeat
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that prayer over and over again.
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If we're going
to pray for an hour
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or pray through the
night, He just wanna suggest--
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He says, "In this manner."
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In other words, I'm
providing a model for prayer,
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focusing first on God,
your--hallowed your name,
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your kingdom, your will.
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And then presenting my needs,
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give us, forgive
us and deliver us.
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It's a model for prayer.
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But as I read my Bible,
Jesus prayed many other prayers.
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For example, the
one that was quoted
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in John 17 where He said,
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"Father, the hour has
come, glorify your Son."
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That's not the Lord's prayer.
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Or another place in
Luke 10 where He says,
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"I praise You, Father,
Lord of heaven and earth."
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That's not the Lord's prayer.
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So it's a communing with God.
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Didn't Ellen White
speak of prayer as the opening
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of the heart to
God as to a friend.
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That's not the
emptying of your mind. Yes.
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That's not
pushing everything out.
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So if you wanna
simple definition,
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Biblical prayer is a
focusing of the mind on God,
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it is
intelligent and intelligible.
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And I'm willing to
test it by the scripture.
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These forms of prayer
which are non-biblical
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want you to empty your
mind to push all thoughts away
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in order to somehow encounter
the God who is within you.
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So I think the--
the key there again.
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Go back, look at the
prayer life of Jesus.
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Look at the teaching of Jesus.
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And I wanna share one
thing you've talked, Dan,
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about reading the Bible.
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And some of you know
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I'm passionate about
memorizing scripture.
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I believe if you'll
spend that thoughtful hour
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with the word, if you'll
fill your mind with the word.
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I have seen it
not only in my life,
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but in the lives of
godly women and godly men,
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the more we fill
our lives with the word,
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the more our prayers are
filled with the word of God,
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because sometimes we say,
Lord, I don't know what to say.
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Didn't Jesus say that the
Holy Spirit would help us?
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Yeah, He will intercede for us
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with groanings
that cannot be uttered.
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In another place though He says
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that the spirit of Your
Father will speak through you.
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I don't think that's just
some kind of vain babbling.
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I think it's the scripture
even in our prayer time
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so that is totally different
from emptying your mind
00:11:38.88\00:11:41.55
of all thoughts.
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In fact, is opening
your mind to the word of God,
00:11:42.75\00:11:45.54
letting God by His
Spirit, bring that word to you
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and praying in an
intelligent and intelligible way
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opening the heart
to God as to a friend.
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Well done. You
know, I think, C.A.,
00:11:55.95\00:11:59.29
the--there--there is
a fundamental principle
00:11:59.30\00:12:02.84
that undergirds all of these.
00:12:02.85\00:12:04.23
And that is that
the devil would help us
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or would have us
rather focus upon ourselves.
00:12:06.75\00:12:10.73
And so, whether it is in our
spirituality or physical lives,
00:12:10.74\00:12:14.30
or our spiritual
lives, the devil would have us
00:12:14.31\00:12:17.29
focus on who we
are or what is within.
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And there is always a
problem with self focus.
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And I think that's what
I'm hearing Derek saying
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when you're talking
about that kind of prayer
00:12:27.55\00:12:30.51
where a person says,
"I will now empty my mind,
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so I can focus
deep within myself
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essentially become selfish."
00:12:36.64\00:12:38.70
In its essence,
it becomes selfish,
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its a part of self
focus which is always wrong.
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Mark, see I'll like to
read one of the proponents
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of centering prayer
in contemplative prayer
00:12:50.94\00:12:55.80
as he tries to
describe how to enter into it.
00:12:55.81\00:12:59.80
Then I'll like to analyze
00:12:59.81\00:13:01.75
what he says from a
Biblical prospective.
00:13:01.76\00:13:04.61
So he is giving counsel
00:13:04.62\00:13:06.89
on how to enter into
this centering prayer
00:13:06.90\00:13:09.49
and how to enter into
this contemplative state,
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and it gives four steps.
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And I'm quoting
directly from his book.
00:13:13.37\00:13:14.96
He says, "First,
you sit comfortably
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with your eyes closed,
relax and quiet yourself.
00:13:16.92\00:13:21.09
Be in love and
have faith in God."
00:13:21.10\00:13:23.67
Then he says, "Two,
Choose a sacred word
00:13:23.68\00:13:26.33
that best supports
your sincere intention
00:13:26.34\00:13:28.51
to be in the Lord's presence
and open to His divine action
00:13:28.52\00:13:32.18
within you. Your
word may be Jesus,
00:13:32.19\00:13:34.31
Lord, God, Savior,
Abba, Divine, Shalom,
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Spirit, Love,
whatever your word is,
00:13:37.46\00:13:39.09
choose that word.
00:13:39.10\00:13:40.54
Let that word, three, be
gently present as your symbol
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of your sincere intention
to be in the Lord's presence
00:13:44.37\00:13:47.53
and open to His
divine action within you.
00:13:47.54\00:13:50.28
Whenever you
become aware of anything."
00:13:50.29\00:13:52.45
Now this is interesting.
00:13:52.46\00:13:53.81
"Whether you become
aware of thoughts, feelings,
00:13:53.82\00:13:56.85
perceptions,
images, associations,
00:13:56.86\00:13:59.93
simply return to your
sacred word, your anchor."
00:13:59.94\00:14:03.19
Another words, the idea
is almost like self hypnosis,
00:14:03.20\00:14:09.30
you keep going over that word,
00:14:09.31\00:14:11.77
you try to get
rid of every thought.
00:14:11.78\00:14:13.85
He says, "Every
feeling, every perception,
00:14:13.86\00:14:16.66
every image and
every association."
00:14:16.67\00:14:18.98
Now if you put your mind
00:14:18.99\00:14:20.92
in that state of
empty neutrality,
00:14:20.93\00:14:24.82
is it not possible
that the voice you hear
00:14:24.83\00:14:29.92
may not be the
voice of God at all?
00:14:29.93\00:14:35.08
Is it possible that as you
repeat that sacred word again,
00:14:35.09\00:14:38.91
and again, and again,
and the devil bypasses
00:14:38.92\00:14:42.85
your rational
cognitive thinking processes
00:14:42.86\00:14:46.79
and gives you an
illusionary experience
00:14:46.80\00:14:50.25
that you feel warm
and love and at peace.
00:14:50.26\00:14:55.36
But there is not the
transformation of character
00:14:55.37\00:14:59.34
that comes from the Holy Spirit
00:14:59.35\00:15:02.33
impressing the
word upon the mind.
00:15:02.34\00:15:05.31
I'm reminded of James 1:21,
00:15:05.32\00:15:11.50
"Anything that bypasses the mind
00:15:11.51\00:15:15.08
which is the essence of being
created in the image of God
00:15:15.09\00:15:18.88
should be extremely concerning."
00:15:18.89\00:15:21.88
And it's also rather interesting
when the disciples came to Jesus
00:15:21.89\00:15:25.89
and they said to Him,
"Lord, teach us to pray."
00:15:25.90\00:15:28.81
He didn't say, "Sit
here with your hands folded
00:15:28.82\00:15:31.78
and repeat this word
over and over and over again."
00:15:31.79\00:15:35.35
In fact, Jesus said,
00:15:35.36\00:15:37.20
"Use vain not repetitions
like the heathen do."
00:15:37.21\00:15:40.74
Jesus specifically
instructed not to repeat a word
00:15:40.75\00:15:44.64
over and over and over
again, but Jesus modeled prayer,
00:15:44.65\00:15:48.40
of course, in Luke 11 was
that prayer in which He said.
00:15:48.41\00:15:52.63
He taught the Our Father.
If you'll analyze that prayer,
00:15:52.64\00:15:56.06
He goes through the
basic essence of life.
00:15:56.07\00:15:58.10
But I wanted to look at James
Chapter 1 just for a moment.
00:15:58.11\00:16:01.70
In James 1:21-22, it says,
00:16:01.71\00:16:07.71
"Therefore lay
aside all filthiness
00:16:07.72\00:16:11.39
and overflow of wickedness,
00:16:11.40\00:16:13.11
and receive with
meekness" I love this.
00:16:13.12\00:16:15.66
"The implanted word,
00:16:15.67\00:16:17.35
which is able to
save your souls."
00:16:17.36\00:16:19.26
The implanted word so
what we're meditating on
00:16:19.27\00:16:23.57
is not looking at ourselves,
00:16:23.58\00:16:25.85
but we're focusing on
the majesty and love of God.
00:16:25.86\00:16:28.42
Focusing on the Word of
God, focusing on God's creation.
00:16:28.43\00:16:31.90
And there're times we meditate
00:16:31.91\00:16:33.75
about how God has
led us in our lives.
00:16:33.76\00:16:36.11
You know, we
have nothing to fear
00:16:36.12\00:16:37.51
unless we forget
the ways He's led us.
00:16:37.52\00:16:39.23
So we think about
the providences of God
00:16:39.24\00:16:41.68
and we praise Him
for the ways He's led us
00:16:41.69\00:16:43.92
and guided us in our
lives and thank Him for that.
00:16:43.93\00:16:46.71
Meditation in
Christianity is never passive
00:16:46.72\00:16:52.01
it's always active
and that's the key.
00:16:52.02\00:16:53.96
It's not passive
neutrality in--in meditation.
00:16:53.97\00:16:57.60
It's an active meditation
where the mind is actively
00:16:57.61\00:17:00.62
engaged with God.
00:17:00.63\00:17:02.21
And we're so actively engaged
meditating on His wonder,
00:17:02.22\00:17:05.94
His works and creation.
00:17:05.95\00:17:07.59
We're so actively engaged
in meditating on His words
00:17:07.60\00:17:10.35
so actively engaged in
meditating at His goodness
00:17:10.36\00:17:13.47
that we are not distracted,
00:17:13.48\00:17:15.57
not because our
minds are not empty,
00:17:15.58\00:17:17.63
but because they're filled
with so many positive thoughts
00:17:17.64\00:17:21.10
of God's grace,
love and goodness.
00:17:21.11\00:17:23.02
Well, said. Anyone else? Harold.
00:17:23.03\00:17:24.99
Why is this significant
to the Biblical Christian?
00:17:28.32\00:17:31.73
And the reason it seems to me
00:17:32.82\00:17:34.62
that it's significant
to the Biblical Christian
00:17:34.63\00:17:36.65
is that if these
meditating processes
00:17:36.66\00:17:41.84
are true then all
scripture is false.
00:17:41.85\00:17:45.88
All the promises of the
Old Testament of a Messiah,
00:17:45.89\00:17:49.18
Jesus words Himself
that He would come again
00:17:49.19\00:17:52.86
in the same way that He left.
00:17:52.87\00:17:54.86
His injunction
to every Christian
00:17:54.87\00:17:57.63
to go to all the
world and preach the gospel,
00:17:57.64\00:18:00.51
that's meaningless.
00:18:00.52\00:18:01.83
Paul's description
of the Second Coming
00:18:01.84\00:18:04.56
and coming in
the clouds of heaven,
00:18:04.57\00:18:06.56
that's all meaningless
if you already have Christ
00:18:06.57\00:18:09.84
in your own processes
where you can call Him up
00:18:09.85\00:18:12.94
anytime you want.
00:18:12.95\00:18:14.58
The promises of--of Hebrews
11 to those who went before
00:18:14.59\00:18:21.79
and their promise was
delayed till we could join them.
00:18:21.80\00:18:24.37
That's all meaningless
00:18:24.38\00:18:26.59
if this
contemplative concept is true.
00:18:26.60\00:18:31.47
And so why is it important
to us to send out the warning,
00:18:31.48\00:18:37.37
because if they are deceived
and they have missed the truth
00:18:37.38\00:18:43.09
of scripture and Jesus coming,
00:18:43.10\00:18:45.41
their souls are
lost on a false god.
00:18:45.42\00:18:48.92
And so, that's why the A.S.I
00:18:48.93\00:18:52.39
and the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:18:52.40\00:18:54.38
needs to call
Christians back to His word,
00:18:54.39\00:18:59.28
so that they don't miss
His blessing and His promises.
00:18:59.29\00:19:03.85
Well said. Now, as--as moderator
00:19:03.86\00:19:05.65
I am not supposed to know
00:19:05.66\00:19:06.71
I am allowed to give an opinion.
00:19:06.72\00:19:09.19
But allow me, there's one music.
00:19:09.20\00:19:10.86
In conjunct with
what-- what Mark said,
00:19:12.82\00:19:14.85
it occurs to me that if
one is engaging in an activity
00:19:14.86\00:19:19.13
not sanctioned by God,
00:19:19.14\00:19:21.02
a process that is
not endorsed by God
00:19:21.03\00:19:23.64
and you're opening up your door,
00:19:23.65\00:19:25.85
your mind to whoever or
whatever wants to come in,
00:19:25.86\00:19:29.90
not only is there a
chance that Satan, may come in.
00:19:29.91\00:19:33.80
It occurs to me that
it-- it's almost guaranteed
00:19:33.81\00:19:39.00
that Satan's gonna
come in because you--
00:19:39.01\00:19:40.71
you're involving
yourself in a process
00:19:40.72\00:19:42.77
that is not endorsed by God.
00:19:42.78\00:19:44.60
So if God is not
there then who is there?
00:19:44.61\00:19:48.31
Derek, you had something to say?
00:19:48.32\00:19:51.26
Another reason if we're really
seeking that close relationship
00:19:51.27\00:19:54.52
with God and I'm
sure many of our viewers
00:19:54.53\00:19:57.34
who are watching the
program they're saying,
00:19:57.35\00:20:00.16
"I want to know God whom
to know is life eternal."
00:20:00.17\00:20:05.36
The reason the
Bible is so important is
00:20:05.37\00:20:07.69
daily reading of scripture
that we've been speaking about.
00:20:07.70\00:20:10.77
It also enables us to recognize
when scripture is misused.
00:20:10.78\00:20:16.90
You remember when
Jesus was tempted,
00:20:16.91\00:20:19.12
Satan misused scripture
in the second temptation.
00:20:19.13\00:20:25.12
I'm thinking of a
comment that surely McClain made
00:20:25.13\00:20:29.26
when she said, "I
am God. I am God."
00:20:29.27\00:20:34.62
Back to Mark's idea of
finding the God within you.
00:20:34.63\00:20:37.94
And they said--
it says in the Bible,
00:20:37.95\00:20:40.33
"Be still and
know that I am God."
00:20:40.34\00:20:44.10
And you say,
"That's not what it means.
00:20:44.11\00:20:47.04
That's not what the Bible says."
00:20:47.05\00:20:49.70
But unless we know the word.
00:20:49.71\00:20:51.99
We hear it all the time
people misquote the Bible
00:20:53.79\00:20:57.57
and make it say things
that are not written therein.
00:20:57.58\00:21:01.67
So again the only
way to avoid deception
00:21:01.68\00:21:07.41
is the light of God's word.
00:21:07.42\00:21:09.56
So when someone
misquotes it, we'll say,
00:21:09.57\00:21:11.85
"No, that's not what it
says. I--I've got to come back.
00:21:11.86\00:21:14.96
We'll pray like this
put every thought at."
00:21:14.97\00:21:17.48
That's not what Jesus says.
00:21:17.49\00:21:19.29
He says, "After
this manner pray."
00:21:19.30\00:21:22.13
That's--that's why
the Bible is so important?
00:21:22.14\00:21:25.03
Frank? This type of deception
00:21:25.04\00:21:29.03
we've experienced
00:21:29.04\00:21:30.04
in the Seventh-day
Adventist Church in the past.
00:21:30.05\00:21:32.70
Ellen White spoke of
the alpha of apostasy.
00:21:32.71\00:21:36.62
She was speaking then of
the pantheistic views that
00:21:36.63\00:21:40.33
Dr. Kellogg brought to
fore in his living temple.
00:21:40.34\00:21:44.55
And then she said that
she feared for her people,
00:21:44.56\00:21:48.53
our people in the
future, because there was
00:21:48.54\00:21:52.72
what she called
the omega of apostasy.
00:21:52.73\00:21:55.74
I cannot-- I cannot sit here
00:21:55.75\00:21:58.21
and say that this
is what we're facing.
00:21:58.22\00:22:02.22
But I wonder what the potential
00:22:02.23\00:22:03.62
is if the warning is not given.
00:22:03.63\00:22:06.88
If we don't
address this thing tonight.
00:22:06.89\00:22:08.78
If people do not know
that this is happening
00:22:08.79\00:22:11.88
and it can sneak up on
people, we've already seen that.
00:22:11.89\00:22:15.40
And so, the
question is the expert
00:22:15.41\00:22:19.62
sitting around this
table, what do you think?
00:22:19.63\00:22:21.91
Are we headed
towards the omega of apostasy
00:22:23.26\00:22:26.45
in something like this?
00:22:26.46\00:22:28.80
Derek? Dan, did you
have something also. Okay.
00:22:30.48\00:22:33.30
Ravi Zacharias who
is a Christian apologist
00:22:33.31\00:22:36.49
used to be Hindu, high
caste, expressed in an interview
00:22:36.50\00:22:42.15
I did with him
for Ministry Magazine.
00:22:42.16\00:22:45.85
He expressed serious concern
that these non-biblical ideas
00:22:45.86\00:22:51.99
were being
observed into Christianity.
00:22:52.00\00:22:54.57
Ideas that were quite
familiar to Buddhist and Hindus
00:22:54.58\00:22:58.13
and those in Eastern religions.
00:22:58.14\00:23:01.30
So in answer to
Frank's question,
00:23:01.31\00:23:05.08
is it possible that this
is a very present danger?
00:23:05.09\00:23:09.09
The answer is absolutely.
00:23:09.10\00:23:11.45
And--and it's not only a
danger for this movement.
00:23:11.46\00:23:15.93
It is a danger for the
entire Christian church.
00:23:15.94\00:23:19.53
In fact, it is a danger
for our entire community
00:23:19.54\00:23:24.78
whatever country we live in.
00:23:24.79\00:23:26.39
So someone has to
have the courage to say,
00:23:26.40\00:23:30.70
"First of all, we
affirm you for seeking God.
00:23:30.71\00:23:35.93
We need God. We affirm
you for desiring more than
00:23:35.94\00:23:40.43
just the materialism of
this age and here is the path."
00:23:40.44\00:23:46.55
Here is the path.
00:23:46.56\00:23:47.91
And--and I would hope that
as a result of the program,
00:23:47.92\00:23:52.28
people would say,
"I was not only rebuked
00:23:52.29\00:23:56.47
because I was may be
using some form of meditation
00:23:56.48\00:24:00.05
that wasn't right, or I've
been praying this little mantra
00:24:00.06\00:24:03.39
that someone told me to pray,
00:24:03.40\00:24:04.96
but I was given constructive
counsel based on the Bible
00:24:04.97\00:24:10.63
that can truly help me."
00:24:10.64\00:24:11.79
I would hope that every person
00:24:11.80\00:24:14.12
at the end of
this program would say,
00:24:14.13\00:24:15.73
"I have some tools now
that-- that can help me
00:24:15.74\00:24:19.93
and can also be a safeguard
00:24:19.94\00:24:23.45
when someone comes with a
non-biblical teaching." Dan?
00:24:23.46\00:24:28.17
You know, we're
getting down to the
00:24:28.18\00:24:29.81
where the rubber
meets the road here
00:24:29.82\00:24:30.89
although it's been a wonderful,
wonderful discussion tonight.
00:24:30.90\00:24:34.71
But I am sitting here
thinking about the person
00:24:34.72\00:24:38.50
who may have headed
down this wrong road,
00:24:38.51\00:24:40.98
because if you think well
if it's Eastern mysticism,
00:24:40.99\00:24:44.78
I'm not gonna fall for
that, but yet people are.
00:24:44.79\00:24:49.86
When Derek just talked
about it being a danger
00:24:49.87\00:24:52.02
to our entire society.
00:24:52.03\00:24:53.47
I can tell you that
right now from the research,
00:24:53.48\00:24:55.79
the facts,
anybody who's thoughtful
00:24:55.80\00:24:58.63
and willing to
look at the facts,
00:24:58.64\00:25:00.67
this movement
is sweeping through
00:25:00.68\00:25:01.94
Protestant America
right now. Okay, it is.
00:25:01.95\00:25:05.78
And if that is happening,
00:25:05.79\00:25:07.58
our Adventist is
susceptible to it.
00:25:07.59\00:25:10.20
The facts are that we are.
00:25:10.21\00:25:12.55
And so if that is the case,
00:25:12.56\00:25:14.36
how has this woven
itself into Christianity.
00:25:14.37\00:25:18.30
That's the question in my mind.
00:25:18.31\00:25:19.82
How has that happened,
because if we know it's Eastern,
00:25:19.83\00:25:22.57
we're gonna say,
"Okay. We don't--
00:25:22.58\00:25:23.69
we're gonna
stay away from that."
00:25:23.70\00:25:25.00
But this was so good,
Derek, that it got you.
00:25:25.01\00:25:29.06
How is it that it's so
good and who else can it get?
00:25:29.07\00:25:32.00
How can I be sure
they won't get me?
00:25:32.01\00:25:34.02
And that's the
question if I were viewing this
00:25:34.03\00:25:36.17
I'd wanna know.
00:25:36.18\00:25:38.30
I'd like to
jump in soon but Dan,
00:25:38.31\00:25:39.96
I think you wanna
go ahead, go ahead.
00:25:39.97\00:25:42.09
A number of years ago, C.A.,
00:25:42.10\00:25:44.64
I was holding a series
of evangelistic meetings.
00:25:44.65\00:25:47.28
And there were a group
of people that showed up
00:25:48.56\00:25:52.63
to those meetings who
were very excited about
00:25:52.64\00:25:54.99
what we were teaching.
00:25:55.00\00:25:55.99
And they asked for the
opportunity to speak to us
00:25:56.00\00:25:59.64
right after the
meeting was over.
00:25:59.65\00:26:01.89
And we went to speak
with this group of people
00:26:01.90\00:26:04.91
and the leader of that
group sat in front of me
00:26:04.92\00:26:07.86
and as he began to
talk his voice changed.
00:26:07.87\00:26:10.97
It morphed into
something different.
00:26:10.98\00:26:13.51
And I-- I started to apply
00:26:13.52\00:26:16.73
what I knew the
scripture said to him.
00:26:16.74\00:26:19.67
And I--I asked him, I
said, "Tell me the Bible says,
00:26:19.68\00:26:23.44
that there is no other name
under heaven given among men
00:26:23.45\00:26:25.99
whereby we must be saved."
00:26:26.00\00:26:28.53
This man in this very changed
morphed voice looked at me
00:26:28.54\00:26:33.38
and said, "But
there is another one."
00:26:33.39\00:26:37.26
And then, I
quoted this scripture.
00:26:37.27\00:26:38.77
I said, "This is
from First John Chapter 4,
00:26:38.78\00:26:41.71
"Dear friends, do
not believe every spirit,
00:26:41.72\00:26:45.94
but test the spirits to
see whether they are from God,
00:26:45.95\00:26:50.05
because many false prophets
have gone out into the world."
00:26:50.06\00:26:53.68
And this is how you can
recognize the spirit of God.
00:26:53.69\00:26:56.92
Every spirit that
acknowledge that Jesus Christ
00:26:56.93\00:26:59.92
has come in the
flesh is born of God.
00:26:59.93\00:27:02.05
And the principle
there, and the principle
00:27:02.06\00:27:03.74
and answer to Dan's question,
00:27:03.75\00:27:05.80
so I am hearing
something that is different--
00:27:05.81\00:27:08.28
that is unique that
appeals to my senses.
00:27:08.29\00:27:12.66
And how do I respond to that?
00:27:12.67\00:27:14.97
I must go to the word of God
00:27:14.98\00:27:17.55
and test it
against the scriptures.
00:27:17.56\00:27:19.79
And if any truth leads
me away from the belief
00:27:19.80\00:27:23.98
that our Lord
Jesus came in the flesh,
00:27:23.99\00:27:27.09
the Son of God
incarnate to speak to your life
00:27:27.10\00:27:30.19
and mine and to
change us and transform us.
00:27:30.20\00:27:32.87
If they say anything else then
it's just not of God at all.
00:27:32.88\00:27:36.56
So I think test
everything by the word of God.
00:27:36.57\00:27:40.49
It doesn't matter
how good the writing is,
00:27:40.50\00:27:42.48
how good the book is,
how good the person sounds,
00:27:42.49\00:27:45.66
test everything by
the word of God. Mark?
00:27:45.67\00:27:49.17
Sometimes a
historical overview is helpful.
00:27:49.18\00:27:52.78
Dan raised a question earlier,
00:27:52.79\00:27:54.83
"Why is it that
contemplative spirituality,
00:27:54.84\00:27:59.24
centering prayers entering
into the Christian church?"
00:27:59.25\00:28:02.21
Let's go back and
look at a little history.
00:28:02.22\00:28:04.60
In the Middle
Ages, a group of people
00:28:04.61\00:28:06.72
called the Desert
Fathers left mainstream society.
00:28:06.73\00:28:13.15
They were monks and hermits,
00:28:13.16\00:28:15.09
and they spent their
life in meditation and prayer.
00:28:15.10\00:28:18.92
These Desert Fathers
borrowed meditation techniques
00:28:18.93\00:28:26.75
from the East. In fact,
00:28:26.76\00:28:28.97
where they were in the
deserts of--of Asia, Arabia.
00:28:28.98\00:28:34.22
In those deserts,
they were not far from
00:28:34.23\00:28:37.35
the--the Buddhist areas and
not far from some Hindu areas,
00:28:37.36\00:28:43.42
and so there
was an amalgamation.
00:28:43.43\00:28:46.89
There was a
borrowing. There was a sharing.
00:28:46.90\00:28:50.65
These Desert Fathers wrote
00:28:50.66\00:28:53.18
a great deal about
meditation, contemplation.
00:28:53.19\00:28:57.19
So they took the
philosophy of the East
00:28:57.20\00:29:00.92
and "Christianized" it.
00:29:00.93\00:29:04.38
The writings didn't make a great
00:29:04.39\00:29:06.87
deal of impact for
many, many centuries.
00:29:06.88\00:29:12.20
In the 20th century and
coming into the 21st century,
00:29:12.21\00:29:17.29
there were a
group of Christians,
00:29:17.30\00:29:21.28
some leaders, thinkers who
looked at the Christian church
00:29:21.29\00:29:25.85
and said the
Christian church is not making
00:29:25.86\00:29:28.79
the impact in the world.
00:29:28.80\00:29:31.90
The Christian church has really
not transformed the world.
00:29:31.91\00:29:37.01
Why is that true?
00:29:37.02\00:29:39.08
It's because Christians do
not have the spirit of Jesus.
00:29:39.09\00:29:43.18
It's because these
Christians don't have
00:29:43.19\00:29:45.22
an intimate walk with Christ,
how can that be discovered.
00:29:45.23\00:29:49.25
And they went back and
began to read the writings
00:29:49.26\00:29:51.91
of the Desert Fathers.
00:29:51.92\00:29:54.01
Some of these leaders
actually begin to travel to Asia
00:29:54.02\00:29:58.87
and to look at
meditation in Buddhism.
00:29:58.88\00:30:02.75
They begin to say,
"How can we find the peace
00:30:02.76\00:30:05.03
that this folk have?"
00:30:05.04\00:30:06.64
Now it's
interesting and I'm gonna quote
00:30:06.65\00:30:08.54
two of the leading proponents
of contemplative spirituality.
00:30:08.55\00:30:13.93
And this is what they say,
00:30:13.94\00:30:15.57
"We--and this is one of the
leading books on spirituality
00:30:15.58\00:30:21.13
today in the--in this tradition
that we're talking about.
00:30:21.14\00:30:25.71
"We should not hesitate to
take the fruit of old age wisdom
00:30:25.72\00:30:29.54
of the East and
"capture" it for Christ.
00:30:29.55\00:30:33.13
Indeed, those of
us who're in ministry
00:30:33.14\00:30:35.44
should make the necessary
effort to acquaint ourselves
00:30:35.45\00:30:38.82
with as many of these
Eastern techniques as possible."
00:30:38.83\00:30:42.78
And as I read that I thought,
00:30:42.79\00:30:43.97
"This would
strange-- sound strange
00:30:43.98\00:30:46.20
to the Apostle
Paul's ears who said
00:30:46.21\00:30:49.41
there is no other
name under heaven."
00:30:49.42\00:30:51.27
As Dan quoted that we
can be saved except Jesus.
00:30:51.28\00:30:53.84
This would seem very
strange to the apostles
00:30:53.85\00:30:56.71
who preached a
Jesus Christ who said,
00:30:56.72\00:30:59.37
"We've seen and
handled of the word of God.
00:30:59.38\00:31:02.36
We preached to
you Christ crucified."
00:31:02.37\00:31:05.14
Paul says in Galatians 6,
00:31:05.15\00:31:06.71
"I don't wanna
know nothing about--
00:31:06.72\00:31:08.80
nothing except
Christ crucified."
00:31:08.81\00:31:11.31
These words would
seem very strange to them,
00:31:11.32\00:31:14.82
but what happened?
00:31:14.83\00:31:17.17
When the Christian church fails
00:31:17.18\00:31:20.10
to preach a spirit
filled word of God.
00:31:20.11\00:31:25.34
When Sunday
pulpits or Sabbath pulpits
00:31:25.35\00:31:30.48
become filled with
those who tell stories.
00:31:30.49\00:31:33.98
When the church
members come week after week
00:31:33.99\00:31:36.91
and they are left barren.
00:31:36.92\00:31:39.59
When there is
little life changing spirit
00:31:39.60\00:31:42.78
led power in the
Christian church.
00:31:42.79\00:31:45.79
When our own lives are
divorced of the spirit and weak.
00:31:45.80\00:31:50.06
When we're not on our
knees seeking God and praying.
00:31:50.07\00:31:53.41
When our hearts are
not broken over God's word.
00:31:53.42\00:31:56.69
When the church does
not experience revival.
00:31:56.70\00:32:00.16
When the church
itself is not revived,
00:32:00.17\00:32:02.58
then people are going
to look some place else.
00:32:02.59\00:32:06.67
They are, and so we
have a great responsibility
00:32:06.68\00:32:10.27
as church members, as
Christians to know God,
00:32:10.28\00:32:14.82
to be filled with His spirit,
00:32:14.83\00:32:17.01
to allow genuine Christianity
to break our hearts.
00:32:17.02\00:32:21.28
We have a great responsibility
as Christian leaders
00:32:21.29\00:32:24.15
that every church service is
filled with the spirit of God
00:32:24.16\00:32:27.96
that when people come there.
00:32:27.97\00:32:29.77
I'm reminded of a little
boy who went to church one day.
00:32:29.78\00:32:35.20
His parents had
never taken him before
00:32:35.21\00:32:37.98
and they thought it'd
be nice culture for him
00:32:37.99\00:32:39.86
to go to church one day.
00:32:39.87\00:32:41.31
And so, he went home and
after the church service,
00:32:41.32\00:32:45.78
he prayed for the first time
and his prayer went like this,
00:32:45.79\00:32:48.98
"O Jesus, the
praying was nice in church.
00:32:48.99\00:32:54.38
And O Jesus, I
listen to that man
00:32:54.39\00:32:56.28
talk from upfront in church.
00:32:56.29\00:32:58.67
And Jesus, I like
the food after church.
00:32:58.68\00:33:01.30
O Jesus, I wish You
could have been there.
00:33:01.31\00:33:05.95
Jesus, I wish You
could have been there."
00:33:05.96\00:33:08.11
If Christ does not show
up in our personal lives.
00:33:08.12\00:33:11.51
If Christ does not show
up in our church services,
00:33:11.52\00:33:15.25
young adults are
going to walk away.
00:33:15.26\00:33:19.09
And God forbid, they
look for spirituality
00:33:19.10\00:33:22.52
in Eastern mysticism because
they haven't found it with us.
00:33:22.53\00:33:27.74
I was sharing a story
with Dan before we came out
00:33:27.75\00:33:31.72
that I--I think
I'll share right now.
00:33:31.73\00:33:34.88
Many years ago when I was--
was fairly new in ministry,
00:33:34.89\00:33:40.09
one day I stood up before
my congregation of about 120
00:33:40.10\00:33:43.98
and I preached the sermon.
00:33:43.99\00:33:47.85
You know, we use the
term "We laid an egg."
00:33:47.86\00:33:51.77
It was a horrible sermon.
00:33:51.78\00:33:54.00
And there was--
there were some reasons.
00:33:54.01\00:33:56.23
It was void of solid Bible study
00:33:56.24\00:33:59.86
and it was void
of the Holy Spirit.
00:33:59.87\00:34:02.35
And it was one of those sermons,
00:34:02.36\00:34:03.59
it's the only time she's
ever done it where I came away
00:34:03.60\00:34:06.98
from the pulpit
and I saw my wife
00:34:06.99\00:34:10.13
and she reached out
and touched me and said,
00:34:10.14\00:34:12.62
"It's okay, sweetie."
00:34:12.63\00:34:14.10
And you know, I
made a determination,
00:34:16.67\00:34:19.11
I went back the
next Sabbath to preach
00:34:19.12\00:34:23.18
and I look at my
congregation and I said,
00:34:23.19\00:34:26.57
"There were 120 of you
here last two Sabbath."
00:34:26.58\00:34:29.78
I spoke, I didn't preach
I spoke for a half an hour
00:34:29.79\00:34:34.56
I wasted 60 hours of
time last Sabbath morning,
00:34:34.57\00:34:38.72
I will never do this again.
00:34:38.73\00:34:40.75
And what struck me after that
00:34:40.76\00:34:43.21
and has always remained
with me to this day is that
00:34:43.22\00:34:46.62
when I stand up to preach,
there is a divine appointment.
00:34:46.63\00:34:50.90
God wants to speak
through us and as pastors,
00:34:50.91\00:34:54.71
we have a responsibility
to root our sermons
00:34:54.72\00:34:57.91
and our thinking in the
word of God to ensure that
00:34:57.92\00:35:01.04
we have
personally encountered Him,
00:35:01.05\00:35:03.61
we've studied the word.
00:35:03.62\00:35:05.00
And when we come
to preach to people
00:35:05.01\00:35:07.49
and speak to people and
lead in our congregations,
00:35:07.50\00:35:10.82
we come loaded
for bear so to speak.
00:35:10.83\00:35:13.09
We become
excited about the message
00:35:13.10\00:35:15.05
and we reveal
the word of God as--
00:35:15.06\00:35:16.81
as we find it in
scripture and then,
00:35:16.82\00:35:19.36
as we find commentary
in the Spirit of Prophecy
00:35:19.37\00:35:21.73
and other Christian commentators
00:35:21.74\00:35:23.20
and Adventist commentators
00:35:23.21\00:35:25.16
who can bless us
and bless others.
00:35:25.17\00:35:27.61
Amen. Your wife is kind.
00:35:27.62\00:35:29.04
My wife simply
says, "Not enough Jesus."
00:35:29.05\00:35:32.40
Well, said. Dan and
then, we'll come to Derek.
00:35:32.41\00:35:34.97
Well, you know, I
really appreciate that story,
00:35:34.98\00:35:38.94
Ellet Jackson, because
I tell you what I think
00:35:38.95\00:35:41.54
it is a sacred
moment when a layperson,
00:35:41.55\00:35:45.54
a lay preacher or an ordained
00:35:45.55\00:35:47.53
Seventh-day Adventist
minister, when a minister stands
00:35:47.54\00:35:49.65
before God to bring
and break the bread,
00:35:49.66\00:35:52.48
that's an awesome moment.
00:35:52.49\00:35:54.52
And it's true that
there are lots of young people
00:35:54.53\00:35:57.97
and older people for that
matter that are not feeling fed.
00:35:57.98\00:36:01.36
They say, "Let's go
look someplace else."
00:36:01.37\00:36:02.86
And maybe that's
one of the reasons
00:36:02.87\00:36:04.22
why in the clever disguise
that the devil has used in this
00:36:04.23\00:36:10.99
that actually people are
buying into a Christianity
00:36:11.00\00:36:14.64
that is laced
with Eastern mysticism.
00:36:14.65\00:36:18.54
And we're-- we
are deluding ourselves
00:36:18.55\00:36:22.13
if we think it's not
happening in our midst.
00:36:22.14\00:36:25.00
And that's where I
think the danger is.
00:36:25.01\00:36:26.36
I'm so glad we're
having this meeting tonight
00:36:26.37\00:36:28.00
to talk about it, because yes,
00:36:28.01\00:36:29.84
we must fill the
void with the truth.
00:36:29.85\00:36:32.87
That's the best way to
deal with the counterfeit
00:36:32.88\00:36:34.77
is to fill the
moment with the truth
00:36:34.78\00:36:36.73
and I really
resonate with that. Derek?
00:36:36.74\00:36:40.53
Dan, I wanna thank you for
your story when that first--
00:36:40.54\00:36:43.60
there was that group
came to your meetings.
00:36:43.61\00:36:46.14
And, you know, you
saw something there,
00:36:46.15\00:36:48.78
but I want to remind
our viewers just in case
00:36:48.79\00:36:51.80
they missed it that you
responded with scripture.
00:36:51.81\00:36:57.59
Now, I have a very simple
question to ask our viewers,
00:36:57.60\00:37:01.53
"How did Dan know the scripture
00:37:01.54\00:37:05.47
that should be
used in that situation?"
00:37:05.48\00:37:08.24
And the answer is
you had filled your mind
00:37:08.25\00:37:11.15
with the word of God.
Sometimes as a Christian we say,
00:37:11.16\00:37:15.89
"My memory is so weak,
you know, I can't remember."
00:37:15.90\00:37:19.97
Don't be stressed about that.
00:37:19.98\00:37:23.05
Jesus said, "The
help with the Holy Spirit,
00:37:23.06\00:37:27.35
the Father will send in my name.
00:37:27.36\00:37:28.55
He'll bring it to
your remembrance."
00:37:28.56\00:37:30.94
If you had been
careless and had nothing
00:37:30.95\00:37:33.85
but your subjective
experience with God,
00:37:33.86\00:37:39.75
how do you
determine that yours is right
00:37:39.76\00:37:42.06
and his is wrong?
00:37:42.07\00:37:43.86
Everything is
totally subjective.
00:37:43.87\00:37:47.13
But God safeguarded you
and your community back to
00:37:47.14\00:37:53.40
why the word of
God so important.
00:37:53.41\00:37:55.72
Through the word
that He had given you
00:37:55.73\00:37:58.34
and He helped you.
00:37:58.35\00:38:00.28
And I think we
need to understand.
00:38:00.29\00:38:02.89
Dan, you've talked
about the seriousness of this.
00:38:02.90\00:38:05.58
We have to see
this in the context
00:38:05.59\00:38:07.80
of the Great Controversy.
00:38:07.81\00:38:09.93
Satan knows his time is short.
00:38:09.94\00:38:13.36
Does it not seem
that this whole contention
00:38:13.37\00:38:16.46
is becoming more intense
than even two decades ago.
00:38:16.47\00:38:22.07
I believe that that
Satan is in a panic mode
00:38:22.08\00:38:26.36
and he's doing whatever he can.
00:38:26.37\00:38:28.86
And it would be tragedy, Dan,
00:38:28.87\00:38:31.58
if--if the spiritual
vitality of our churches
00:38:31.59\00:38:36.19
were so anemic
that that young or old
00:38:36.20\00:38:41.48
felt they had to go to
some other new age festival
00:38:41.49\00:38:46.68
to find some spiritual meaning.
00:38:46.69\00:38:48.75
So it's not enough to
hold up warning signs and say,
00:38:48.76\00:38:54.00
"This isn't Biblical prayer.
00:38:54.01\00:38:55.95
This isn't Biblical meditation."
00:38:55.96\00:38:58.34
Listen to the
testimonies of those
00:38:58.35\00:39:00.16
who may have gone
down the wrong road
00:39:00.17\00:39:02.02
and seen they
were in the wrong place
00:39:02.03\00:39:03.77
and come back,
that's not enough.
00:39:03.78\00:39:06.03
We have to experience a life
changing relationship with God
00:39:06.04\00:39:12.24
personally and in our churches
which is centered in the word
00:39:12.25\00:39:16.16
and in Jesus that
will strengthen those
00:39:16.17\00:39:20.80
who come to worship,
otherwise who is responsible
00:39:20.81\00:39:26.11
when they wander away.
00:39:26.12\00:39:28.01
Well, we could blame them
or we could ask ourselves,
00:39:28.02\00:39:32.97
"Did God want to
bring some revival
00:39:32.98\00:39:37.72
and reformation
in our hearts that,
00:39:37.73\00:39:40.59
that both young
and old would see that
00:39:40.60\00:39:44.12
genuine's Biblical spirituality
lived out in our lives."
00:39:44.13\00:39:49.00
Thank you so much, Derek.
I--I really resonate with that.
00:39:49.01\00:39:51.88
And C.A, I'd like
to kind of summarize
00:39:51.89\00:39:54.41
why we've come tonight
00:39:54.42\00:39:55.66
and make another
observation if I could.
00:39:55.67\00:39:59.70
We've looked tonight
at a contrast between
00:39:59.71\00:40:04.40
Biblical spirituality and things
like contemplative prayer,
00:40:04.41\00:40:07.78
centering prayer
and Eastern mysticism.
00:40:07.79\00:40:09.23
We said that there's a
difference in the nature of man.
00:40:09.24\00:40:12.43
Biblical Christianity talks
about the fallen nature of man.
00:40:12.44\00:40:16.21
Eastern mysticism talks
about the God within you.
00:40:16.22\00:40:19.63
We've said there was
a difference in the idea
00:40:19.64\00:40:23.22
of where you look what
you look within yourself
00:40:23.23\00:40:27.73
or you look to Jesus.
00:40:27.74\00:40:29.90
Whether you have a self centered
approach to spirituality
00:40:29.91\00:40:33.20
or approach that you're
looking out of yourself.
00:40:33.21\00:40:35.60
We've also said that
there's a difference between
00:40:35.61\00:40:37.98
Eastern mysticism which
is largely experience based
00:40:37.99\00:40:41.83
and the Christian Biblical
spirituality that is word based.
00:40:41.84\00:40:47.25
And we pointed out
that all of our experience
00:40:47.26\00:40:49.47
has to be tested by the word.
00:40:49.48\00:40:51.90
We've looked also at the
fact that meditation is Biblical
00:40:51.91\00:40:58.06
and contemplation is Biblical,
00:40:58.07\00:41:00.17
but its contemplating and
meditating on God's works,
00:41:00.18\00:41:03.41
God's wisdom, God's
wonder, God's majesty
00:41:03.42\00:41:09.09
and Christian meditation always
focuses on an active mind,
00:41:09.10\00:41:13.90
not a passive mind.
00:41:13.91\00:41:15.56
We've seen as
well tonight that the--
00:41:15.57\00:41:18.32
that Eastern
mysticism is accepted by those
00:41:18.33\00:41:22.64
by their own very
acknowledgement and ignition.
00:41:22.65\00:41:26.27
And in fact, they feel that
00:41:26.28\00:41:27.78
the meditation techniques
of Buddhism and Hinduism
00:41:27.79\00:41:30.38
ought to be
introduced and sanctified
00:41:30.39\00:41:32.50
into the Christian
church if you can say that
00:41:32.51\00:41:35.46
which I think is
an anomaly in itself.
00:41:35.47\00:41:37.52
And we talk about this
idea of centering prayer
00:41:37.53\00:41:40.06
repeating a word and
keeping on repeating that,
00:41:40.07\00:41:42.83
how it's a form of
self hypnosis in the minds.
00:41:42.84\00:41:44.89
They kind of
summarizes where we are.
00:41:44.90\00:41:46.55
There's one other major aspect.
And I wanna introduce it here.
00:41:46.56\00:41:52.86
And I'll introduce it
by the form of a question
00:41:52.87\00:41:54.99
and then attempt to
answer the question.
00:41:55.00\00:41:58.95
Is it true that the
group that crucified Jesus
00:41:58.96\00:42:03.70
prayed and studied the Bible?
00:42:03.71\00:42:06.99
The Pharisees spent
a lot of time praying
00:42:07.00\00:42:12.45
even in their
teens they had memorized.
00:42:12.46\00:42:15.04
By the time they were teenagers
00:42:15.05\00:42:16.32
the first five
books of the Bible.
00:42:16.33\00:42:18.77
So they did study the
Bible and they did pray.
00:42:18.78\00:42:22.38
In fact, the Pharisees thought
they really knew the Bible,
00:42:22.39\00:42:26.22
but they crucified Jesus.
00:42:26.23\00:42:28.46
What did they miss and
what did the Desert Fathers miss
00:42:28.47\00:42:33.79
when they separated
themselves from society
00:42:33.80\00:42:37.21
and went out and
lived in the desert
00:42:37.22\00:42:39.68
or take Simeon Stylites
who lived on that pillar
00:42:39.69\00:42:42.43
for what was it is 40 years.
00:42:42.44\00:42:45.44
He wouldn't--his food was
passed up to him on this pillar.
00:42:45.45\00:42:49.58
The Desert Fathers
said, "The world is evil.
00:42:49.59\00:42:52.21
We have to
separate ourselves from it."
00:42:52.22\00:42:54.97
And so, they went out
and lived in the deserts.
00:42:54.98\00:42:57.04
I'd like to suggest
this, that the Desert Fathers
00:42:57.05\00:43:00.47
had a very mistaken
view of Christianity.
00:43:00.48\00:43:05.23
And the Pharisees had a very
mistaken view of Christianity,
00:43:05.24\00:43:09.20
that Christian
growth comes with prayer,
00:43:09.21\00:43:11.93
Bible study and service.
00:43:11.94\00:43:14.25
If you leave
witness and service out,
00:43:14.26\00:43:17.09
Jesus blended His
life between Bible study,
00:43:17.10\00:43:20.09
prayer and service.
Christ blended His life
00:43:20.10\00:43:22.90
between the
mountain and the multitude.
00:43:22.91\00:43:25.01
And so, the
essence of Christianity
00:43:25.02\00:43:27.82
is not merely praying
and studying the Bible,
00:43:27.83\00:43:30.37
so that I can be saved.
00:43:30.38\00:43:32.22
The essence of
Christianity is focusing
00:43:32.23\00:43:35.87
on a relationship
with Jesus and His love
00:43:35.88\00:43:38.98
so overflows our lives
that we wanna reach out
00:43:38.99\00:43:41.85
and share His love with others.
00:43:41.86\00:43:43.82
May I suggest that
Jesus said, "Follow me,
00:43:43.83\00:43:47.37
and I'll make
you fishers of men."
00:43:47.38\00:43:49.38
That without a
desire to witness,
00:43:49.39\00:43:51.59
without a desire
to do soul winning,
00:43:51.60\00:43:53.48
without a desire to reach out
00:43:53.49\00:43:54.63
and touch somebody
else with God's love.
00:43:54.64\00:43:56.86
Without a desire to
share the message of Christ
00:43:56.87\00:43:59.83
that's where the
Adventist church is unique,
00:43:59.84\00:44:04.34
because it calls men and women.
00:44:04.35\00:44:07.07
It calls its members to
share the gospel of Christ
00:44:07.08\00:44:10.48
and the setting of messages
of Three Angels in Revelation
00:44:10.49\00:44:13.38
with every nation,
kindred, tongue and people.
00:44:13.39\00:44:16.19
So we are not simply
interested as Christians
00:44:16.20\00:44:19.19
in finding a spot
off in the mountains
00:44:19.20\00:44:22.76
where we can meditate
and pray and save ourselves.
00:44:22.77\00:44:25.59
We are passionate about
sharing this love of Jesus
00:44:25.60\00:44:28.39
with the world.
We're focused on mission.
00:44:28.40\00:44:31.29
Our prayers and Bible
studies fuel our mission
00:44:31.30\00:44:35.00
and our desire to share Jesus.
00:44:35.01\00:44:37.28
Frank?
00:44:37.29\00:44:38.43
If I can just
add something here,
00:44:38.44\00:44:40.90
I don't want to
sound like a contradiction
00:44:40.91\00:44:43.15
and it's true what
Pastor Finley is saying
00:44:43.16\00:44:46.50
Bible study and
prayer leads to service.
00:44:46.51\00:44:50.30
But I also
understand that Bible study,
00:44:50.31\00:44:53.74
prayer and service all three
could be done legalistically.
00:44:53.75\00:44:57.59
And in answering the
question what did they miss,
00:44:57.60\00:45:01.03
they actually simply miss God.
00:45:01.04\00:45:03.52
They did religion according
to their understanding.
00:45:03.53\00:45:06.54
This is what they
understood religion was
00:45:06.55\00:45:09.19
And they could get a high out
of their religion by meditation
00:45:09.20\00:45:13.24
and by self
hypnosis because something
00:45:13.25\00:45:16.80
communicated with
them and gave them a high.
00:45:16.81\00:45:19.76
So they simply practiced stuff.
00:45:19.77\00:45:23.87
They were
religious in whatever context
00:45:23.88\00:45:26.94
that they were religious.
00:45:26.95\00:45:27.95
And I think that's a
danger for ourselves as well.
00:45:27.96\00:45:30.64
When we study the Bible
and we pray and we serve,
00:45:31.56\00:45:35.01
we can do that
mechanically or we can do
00:45:35.02\00:45:37.63
that in conjunction
with God personally.
00:45:37.64\00:45:39.92
And there is a
difference I think.
00:45:40.46\00:45:43.15
All right. We'll just
take the walk down the aisle.
00:45:43.16\00:45:45.34
We'll go with
Derrick, Harold and then Dan.
00:45:45.35\00:45:47.88
I wanna thank you,
Mark, for that crucial insight
00:45:48.79\00:45:52.61
because a dynamic relationship
with God never stays
00:45:52.62\00:45:58.06
just between God
and the individual.
00:45:58.07\00:46:00.15
It always will be manifested
in service, in mission.
00:46:00.71\00:46:05.83
And I often wondered why
Jesus when He send this out,
00:46:05.84\00:46:09.99
"Harvest is great,
the labors are few."
00:46:10.00\00:46:12.43
He said, "Pray that
God would send out labors,
00:46:12.44\00:46:16.15
throw out labors
into His harvest."
00:46:16.16\00:46:18.02
The next thing He
said was, "Go your ways,
00:46:18.03\00:46:20.89
I send you out as lambs."
00:46:20.90\00:46:22.41
And I think that mission
00:46:24.58\00:46:27.42
because when we go
out in Jesus' name,
00:46:31.28\00:46:34.01
we realized that
we're not that strong
00:46:34.02\00:46:36.34
and we're not that wise.
00:46:36.92\00:46:38.05
We have to completely
depend on the good shepherd,
00:46:38.78\00:46:43.80
we're just lambs.
00:46:43.81\00:46:45.43
And I think that if we're
'just looking at ourselves,
00:46:45.44\00:46:49.09
Frank, even in
reading the Bible and prayer,
00:46:49.10\00:46:51.76
it will stop, it will
wither and it will die.
00:46:52.47\00:46:55.29
But if we're going out,
obedient to Jesus' commission,
00:46:55.72\00:47:01.09
it will constantly keep
us on our knees before God
00:47:01.10\00:47:05.07
praying for the Holy
Spirit to be with us and in us.
00:47:05.08\00:47:08.44
Thanking God,
Dan, for those times
00:47:08.45\00:47:10.44
when we receive
wisdom by the spirit
00:47:10.45\00:47:13.62
as you did in that situation.
00:47:13.63\00:47:15.73
Constantly
experiencing the freshness
00:47:15.74\00:47:18.40
and the vitality that I
believe if we talk about
00:47:18.41\00:47:22.07
our young people I think
that's what they're looking
00:47:22.08\00:47:23.67
for and they're
looking to see it in us.
00:47:23.68\00:47:25.87
But thank you for reminding
us that as we go out in mission
00:47:25.88\00:47:30.75
that we're
constantly realizing that need
00:47:31.78\00:47:35.06
for that daily
experience with God, prayer,
00:47:35.07\00:47:38.47
and Bible studying,
and communion with Him.
00:47:38.48\00:47:40.77
Harold. I think we need
00:47:42.27\00:47:45.16
to look at what
has happened within us
00:47:45.17\00:47:47.77
that has led to the infiltration
00:47:49.46\00:47:53.75
into the Christian
world of these things.
00:47:53.76\00:47:56.58
And we need to
recognize that it's the play
00:47:56.59\00:47:59.05
out of the Great
Controversy thing.
00:47:59.06\00:48:01.43
And what should it do,
should we be defensively
00:48:01.44\00:48:04.49
in a mechanical adversarial way.
00:48:04.50\00:48:07.09
I think what it
should do is bring us back
00:48:07.10\00:48:09.98
to the realization that
there is no truth except God
00:48:09.99\00:48:15.04
and His word as we are
driven back to His word,
00:48:15.05\00:48:19.26
we need to recognize
00:48:19.27\00:48:20.60
that it's only by His
grace that we're saved.
00:48:20.61\00:48:23.58
And that we may
have not communicated
00:48:24.26\00:48:26.86
that as well as we
should have done to others.
00:48:26.87\00:48:29.15
And that we shouldn't be
gotten off track by that.
00:48:29.87\00:48:33.15
But we as Biblical
Seventh-day Adventist Christians
00:48:33.16\00:48:37.25
we need to know that
we're deters to all men,
00:48:37.26\00:48:40.38
because we know
things they don't know.
00:48:41.08\00:48:42.97
We know that
Jesus is coming soon.
00:48:43.99\00:48:46.03
We know that we are given
the task of giving to the world
00:48:46.04\00:48:51.03
the Three
Angels' messages because
00:48:51.04\00:48:52.82
nobody else in the world
is doing that or will do that.
00:48:52.83\00:48:56.31
And that's the
task that we have.
00:48:56.53\00:48:58.72
And I think that out
of this really crisis
00:48:58.73\00:49:02.84
that has come to Christianity
that it should bring us back
00:49:02.85\00:49:06.51
to the word and a reinvigoration
of what God has asked us
00:49:06.52\00:49:10.78
to do and be
committed to do that in truth
00:49:10.79\00:49:14.43
and in purity and humility.
00:49:14.44\00:49:17.50
Dan. It's interesting that Mark
00:49:18.62\00:49:22.40
made the comment
that he made about service
00:49:22.41\00:49:25.72
and it's been
echoed down the line here.
00:49:25.73\00:49:28.40
So true we're at
the A.S.I convention.
00:49:28.41\00:49:30.70
And at A.S.I, A.S.I
members are all about
00:49:30.71\00:49:33.11
putting principles into action.
00:49:33.12\00:49:34.85
And it is absolutely essential
no question about that.
00:49:35.54\00:49:39.11
And I appreciated what
Harold just said about humility.
00:49:39.77\00:49:42.30
You know, I sit up
here and I acknowledged
00:49:43.05\00:49:45.38
that I'm a
sinner saved by grace.
00:49:45.39\00:49:46.81
I don't say anything
about these topics in any kind
00:49:47.47\00:49:50.62
of a holier than now
or sanctimonious way.
00:49:50.63\00:49:54.04
I look at this and I just--
my eyes open wide and I say,
00:49:54.05\00:49:57.22
"Wow. Wow."
00:49:57.23\00:50:00.06
And I have a couple of
thoughts that come into my mind
00:50:00.87\00:50:04.46
that I wanna get
expressed here, C.A. Number one,
00:50:04.47\00:50:08.29
I've talked to lots of people
over the course the last years,
00:50:08.30\00:50:11.17
we've been preparing and looking
00:50:11.18\00:50:12.57
and digging into
some of this topic.
00:50:12.58\00:50:14.35
I've talked to pastors.
I've talked to laypeople.
00:50:14.97\00:50:16.75
I've talked to leaders.
I had one person say to me,
00:50:16.76\00:50:20.40
"My, once they'd looked at it.
00:50:20.41\00:50:22.44
Who want this touch?" had
that statement made to me?
00:50:22.45\00:50:26.25
I'd a another statement
made by a person who said,
00:50:27.24\00:50:29.02
"Wow, you know,
whenever I looked
00:50:29.03\00:50:30.99
at the terms back 20 years
ago, I interpreted those terms
00:50:31.00\00:50:35.61
based upon what I understood.
00:50:35.62\00:50:37.14
And it was not until
I looked at the facts
00:50:37.15\00:50:39.91
in the words of
this very people saying
00:50:39.92\00:50:41.81
what those words
meant that I realized
00:50:41.82\00:50:44.21
that I had made a mistake."
00:50:44.22\00:50:45.44
And I sit back and
I think about pastors.
00:50:46.87\00:50:48.77
Now, I'm a layman.
00:50:48.78\00:50:49.97
I'm a
businessman. I run a ministry.
00:50:50.62\00:50:52.31
But I know a lot about pastors,
you see, I'm a pastor's son.
00:50:53.81\00:50:57.23
Five of my uncles are
Seventh-day Adventist ministers.
00:50:58.07\00:51:00.99
Four retired, one
still in ministry.
00:51:01.00\00:51:03.45
I have two brothers that are
Seventh-day Adventist ministers.
00:51:04.16\00:51:06.11
And I've a son that
was recently ordained
00:51:06.12\00:51:07.83
as a Seventh-day
Adventist minister.
00:51:07.84\00:51:09.37
When I was a kid, we
used to go to family reunions
00:51:09.38\00:51:11.74
that it seemed
like workers' meeting.
00:51:11.75\00:51:13.58
I know how pastors think.
00:51:13.59\00:51:15.69
I know what's
going on with that.
00:51:15.70\00:51:17.13
And I know the lonely life
that can be in the challenged
00:51:17.14\00:51:19.81
that you sometimes
face at the door afterwards
00:51:19.82\00:51:21.90
as people
criticize this or that.
00:51:21.91\00:51:24.81
But I just wanna say
something to any pastor
00:51:26.14\00:51:27.98
that may be
listening to this right now.
00:51:27.99\00:51:29.51
If you find yourself
out on enchanted ground,
00:51:29.52\00:51:32.90
because of a mistaken
road that has been taken,
00:51:32.91\00:51:37.19
because of this.
00:51:37.20\00:51:38.83
I urge you to
come back off of that
00:51:38.84\00:51:40.90
and get back on the solid
00:51:40.91\00:51:42.47
ground of the word of God.
00:51:42.48\00:51:43.47
And I also wanna say
something to any layperson,
00:51:44.61\00:51:47.01
church member, I'm a
head elder in my local church.
00:51:47.02\00:51:49.72
If you're sitting
out there and you think,
00:51:50.53\00:51:52.06
"Oh, oh, I've heard
my pastor talk about
00:51:52.07\00:51:54.71
this or that and I'm
gonna check him out."
00:51:54.72\00:51:56.60
I wanna urge you to be really,
really careful with this.
00:51:57.21\00:52:00.19
It's not our job as
laypeople to go and,
00:52:00.20\00:52:03.32
you know, work over our pastor
00:52:03.33\00:52:05.01
because we
think he or she may be
00:52:05.02\00:52:06.54
heading down the wrong road.
00:52:06.55\00:52:08.05
I wanna urge you as a layperson
00:52:08.06\00:52:10.35
to be supportive of your pastor.
00:52:10.36\00:52:12.35
I want you to
look at this and say,
00:52:12.36\00:52:13.94
"You know, I'm discovering
00:52:13.95\00:52:15.00
this fine delegate
ways to ask questions."
00:52:15.01\00:52:17.24
But give that person a chance
00:52:18.03\00:52:20.26
to come back off
of this and yourself.
00:52:20.27\00:52:22.23
If you're a layperson
and have gone down this road,
00:52:22.24\00:52:24.15
please come back.
00:52:24.16\00:52:25.18
There's a God who's waiting
00:52:26.16\00:52:27.24
and who wants us
to fill our lives
00:52:27.25\00:52:28.97
with all these good things
00:52:28.98\00:52:30.03
we've all been
talking about tonight.
00:52:30.04\00:52:31.16
And there's no
reason to go down this road.
00:52:31.17\00:52:34.36
The facts are
clear if you're honest
00:52:34.37\00:52:36.39
and you're willing
to look at the facts,
00:52:36.40\00:52:37.65
the facts are absolutely
clear, just look at them.
00:52:37.66\00:52:40.12
We're not telling you,
00:52:40.13\00:52:41.36
we're just simply
turning the light on,
00:52:41.37\00:52:42.36
so that you can
see for yourself.
00:52:42.72\00:52:44.04
Our pastors are
intelligent people.
00:52:44.05\00:52:45.75
Our laypeople are
intelligent people, just look.
00:52:46.66\00:52:48.55
I wondered, C.A,
why if I can use it,
00:52:50.04\00:52:53.95
why God allowed me to go down
00:52:53.96\00:52:55.58
that path 27 years ago.
00:52:55.59\00:52:56.93
And some of the
things that I've said
00:52:57.67\00:53:00.21
or wrote 25 years ago
have caused some confusion.
00:53:00.22\00:53:04.09
I wanted to say
that first of all,
00:53:05.01\00:53:08.03
we ought to check and
see if people still believe
00:53:08.04\00:53:10.00
those things or
if that's something
00:53:10.01\00:53:12.49
that they believe 20 years ago.
00:53:12.50\00:53:13.64
I think we need to be careful
00:53:14.67\00:53:16.58
that we're not attacking people,
00:53:16.59\00:53:18.87
but praying for them
and encouraging them.
00:53:18.88\00:53:21.41
I think we also need to realize
that maybe some of the mistake
00:53:22.53\00:53:25.56
we've made and here I am sitting
here on the panel tonight,
00:53:25.57\00:53:27.97
sharing my passion about
examine everything carefully
00:53:27.98\00:53:32.20
and holdfast to
that which is good,
00:53:32.21\00:53:34.11
that even may be
some of the mistakes
00:53:34.12\00:53:36.02
we made in the past
can give us credibility
00:53:36.03\00:53:39.46
to be able to speak
to sisters and brothers
00:53:39.47\00:53:41.83
in Christ and
say, "I didn't have
00:53:41.84\00:53:44.26
that intentions
when I took that path."
00:53:44.27\00:53:47.53
And I'm not accusing you
of having bad intentions.
00:53:47.54\00:53:50.90
I believe that you're genuinely
seeking a closer walk with God.
00:53:51.94\00:53:57.53
But here are the dangers.
00:53:57.54\00:53:59.13
And here's the
foundation that we need.
00:53:59.14\00:54:01.57
I think if we
comments Harold said
00:54:01.58\00:54:03.43
with the spirit of humility
and with the spirit of love.
00:54:03.44\00:54:07.35
We speak the truth,
but we speak it in love.
00:54:08.52\00:54:10.43
And we also not accuse
people without finding out
00:54:11.41\00:54:17.33
if they still
believe those things or not
00:54:17.34\00:54:19.20
because certainly,
there may have been things
00:54:19.21\00:54:21.80
that we held 30 years
ago that we don't hold now.
00:54:21.81\00:54:24.84
And if we come
with that humble spirit,
00:54:24.85\00:54:28.12
I believe the Spirit
of God will honor that,
00:54:28.13\00:54:30.72
will honor our testimony.
00:54:30.73\00:54:32.35
And we'll speak to
the hearts of those people
00:54:32.36\00:54:34.30
that we share with
and they'll see that
00:54:34.31\00:54:36.51
we're not out to attack them,
but to love and support them
00:54:36.52\00:54:39.79
and to encourage
them with us on a journey
00:54:39.80\00:54:43.28
that's based
solidly in the word of God.
00:54:43.29\00:54:46.66
Well done. I
wanna do two things.
00:54:47.38\00:54:50.35
Mark, I think I want you
00:54:50.36\00:54:51.71
to close in
prayer in just a moment.
00:54:51.72\00:54:53.45
And as our
President of North America,
00:54:54.77\00:54:56.99
I want you to make a statement.
00:54:57.00\00:54:58.01
I'm thinking, you know,
00:54:59.64\00:55:00.76
when we look at the
life of our pioneers,
00:55:00.77\00:55:02.51
they've made mistakes, you know,
00:55:03.52\00:55:05.23
they grew in grace and
in knowledge of the word
00:55:05.24\00:55:07.85
and they may
change. So I don't think--
00:55:07.86\00:55:09.28
we should hold anyone
hostage for what they were.
00:55:09.31\00:55:11.50
It's where you're
going that counts.
00:55:12.35\00:55:13.48
And in Christ, you got a future.
00:55:13.49\00:55:16.03
Christ washes
all the path--past.
00:55:16.04\00:55:18.77
I recall just a
little bit ago reading
00:55:18.78\00:55:21.30
some quotes by Ellen White
00:55:21.31\00:55:22.66
on our attitude
towards new light.
00:55:22.67\00:55:24.62
She says this, "Just because
the waters are not troubled
00:55:25.94\00:55:29.87
and the church is
sailing on tranquil seas,
00:55:29.88\00:55:31.94
don't delude
yourself into thinking
00:55:31.95\00:55:34.20
that everything is
fine in the church."
00:55:34.21\00:55:35.55
Because no one's
raising any questions,
00:55:35.56\00:55:37.75
that doesn't necessarily mean
00:55:37.76\00:55:39.43
that we're going
in the right path.
00:55:39.44\00:55:41.68
She says, "Trials
come to the church
00:55:41.69\00:55:43.74
for one reason only to
send us back to the word."
00:55:43.75\00:55:46.83
Whenever these things come,
we have to go back to the word.
00:55:46.84\00:55:49.98
It is hubris and egotistical
to believe that those things
00:55:49.99\00:55:54.67
that affect Protestantism
will not affect in some way
00:55:54.68\00:55:59.22
the Seventh-day
Adventist church.
00:55:59.23\00:56:00.65
We are not
immune to those things.
00:56:00.66\00:56:02.33
The truth is when
Protestantism sneezes,
00:56:02.34\00:56:06.64
certain Adventists
catch cold, that's the truth.
00:56:06.65\00:56:10.69
The inoculation is
going back to Jesus,
00:56:10.70\00:56:14.99
going back to
the word and studying
00:56:15.00\00:56:17.29
to show yourself approved.
00:56:17.30\00:56:19.26
These things will come,
00:56:19.27\00:56:20.62
brethren think it's
not strange concerning
00:56:20.63\00:56:23.32
the fiery trial
which are to try you
00:56:23.33\00:56:25.10
as though some
strange thing happened.
00:56:25.11\00:56:27.17
They're gonna come,
but the answer our safety
00:56:27.18\00:56:30.06
has is now will
always be in Christ Jesus.
00:56:30.07\00:56:34.99
Elder, if you can
give us 30 seconds
00:56:35.60\00:56:36.87
that I wanna go
out with Mark's prayer.
00:56:36.88\00:56:38.63
Just something very
simple, and that is I remember
00:56:38.64\00:56:41.63
the prayer that
Jehoshaphat prayed
00:56:41.64\00:56:43.57
in the steps of
the temple in Jerusalem
00:56:43.58\00:56:45.77
when the nation
was in deep trouble.
00:56:45.78\00:56:48.22
He raised his voice
and said, "We do not know
00:56:48.23\00:56:51.67
what to do with this vast
enemy that has come against us,
00:56:51.68\00:56:54.79
but our eyes are upon You.
00:56:54.80\00:56:57.05
Let us never trust
ourselves in our own wisdom.
00:56:57.06\00:57:00.04
Let us always turn
to God and to His word."
00:57:00.05\00:57:03.13
When there are
questions, go to the word.
00:57:03.14\00:57:05.32
When there are
troubles, go to the word.
00:57:05.33\00:57:07.30
Let's recognize that in
ourselves we're very frail.
00:57:07.31\00:57:11.99
As Dan said, "I'm a
sinner saved by grace."
00:57:12.00\00:57:15.10
Let's turn to God and
focus on Him and His word,
00:57:15.11\00:57:18.42
and He will bring us off more
00:57:18.43\00:57:20.84
than victors
through Jesus Christ. Amen.
00:57:20.85\00:57:23.44
Mark, if we can
go out in prayer.
00:57:23.45\00:57:25.22
Let's pray
together. Father in Heaven,
00:57:25.23\00:57:27.55
thank you that You long
to have a experience with us
00:57:27.56\00:57:32.65
that is intimate
and deep, even more than
00:57:32.66\00:57:37.10
our feeble
hearts long to know You.
00:57:37.11\00:57:39.24
We're thankful that You
are a God of immense love.
00:57:39.25\00:57:43.96
And we're thankful
that You long to know us.
00:57:44.93\00:57:47.82
Father, we wanna
be done with any false
00:57:48.55\00:57:52.03
forms of religious experience
00:57:52.04\00:57:55.18
that nearly lead us
to trust in ourselves.
00:57:55.19\00:57:59.10