Participants: Jim Gilley & Danny Shelton (Host), C. A. Murray, Dan Houghton, Dan Jackson, Derek Morris, Frank Fournier, Harold Lance, Mark Finley
Series Code: NLLA
Program Code: NLLA012702
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00:26 Hi, this is coming to you live from Cincinnati, Ohio.
00:29 And, Danny, it has really been a tremendous ASI so far. 00:33 It has. And how about the last song? 00:36 Wow. Do you know that guy, who was he? 00:38 That's John Bradshaw-- Is that John Bradshaw? 00:39 I thought he was a preacher. 00:41 You know, I saw the name on the schedule. 00:43 It said, John Bradshaw was singing. 00:45 Sing-- And I thought no he must be preaching and then-- 00:49 Me too. That said, four minutes. 00:51 And I said, "Wow, he can't preach 00:52 much in four minutes." 00:54 So I said, he must be then it must be really be singing. 00:57 You know what? He has a really pure. 00:59 He sing from the heart. 01:00 I was blessed by it, and I have to admit 01:02 I kind of raise my hand to--to the Lord. 01:04 John, I love that. That's great. 01:06 I love that song. 01:07 And we've had him in our Camp Meetings 01:08 and never had him sing so-- 01:09 No. Now, the cat is out the bag. 01:11 That's it. Everybody in the world church knows 01:14 that he is not only a preacher, but he is a singer. 01:16 I'll tell you someone else who is a singer. 01:18 No. And he will deny it, but it's true. 01:20 He has a beautiful voice used to be a singing evangelist. 01:23 He is sitting right next to me. 01:25 And his name is Gilley. 01:26 He is a cousin to Mickey Gilley, 01:28 but I think he sounds better now. 01:31 Now, Mickey, you're a great singer too, 01:32 but--but Jim Gilley does sing well, 01:35 I promise you that's the true. 01:37 You know one thing I've learned about 01:38 Danny is he loves to have fun. 01:40 And he is always pulling my leg. 01:42 And he is pulling yours, when he tells you I am a singer. 01:44 But you did. You did. 01:45 Well, you were singing evangelist, right? 01:47 Yeah, that's true. 01:48 It was a kind of-- kind of droughts, you know-- 01:50 No it wasn't, no it wasn't. 01:52 But you know last-- last night I really thought 01:55 and we've had a lot of the people 01:57 that have contacted us. 01:59 You know, more of the things I found out. 02:01 If you can make people on both sides, 02:04 mad at Jim, you probably have been fair. 02:07 And so last night Elder Wilson-- 02:11 We--our job was simply to present 02:13 the General Conference President, 02:15 ask him some questions, and then he was to be 02:18 the one to take the positions and he did. 02:21 Yeah, he did. Mark Finley with him and-- Mark Finley. 02:23 You know that Brad Thorp and Jim and--and myself. 02:26 And I mean, honestly 3ABN is facilitating this. 02:29 And we want to do more of this 02:31 because there are certain things 02:32 coming down the pike within the church 02:35 that we want to talk about. 02:36 No, we're not talking about airing dirty laundry, 02:38 but we're talking doing just like last night. 02:40 Absolutely. Nobody is doing any-- 02:42 trying to be positive, as positive as we can, 02:45 but preaching and encouraging people 02:48 and unity together one faith, 02:51 one God, go on doctrine, 02:52 go on forward to get this gospels, 02:54 the king--kingdom in through all the world. 02:56 And the devil wants to divide that, 02:58 a house divided against itself cannot stand. 03:02 And so that's why 3ABN 03:04 has joining hands with Elder Wilson, 03:06 the church and giving the airways to the church. 03:09 As you said last night, Jim, that you offered right 03:12 after literally in Atlanta, 03:14 Elder Wilson came over cross the hill 03:16 where we there and you said anytime you want the-- 03:20 the 3ABN's audience which is a worldwide audience, 03:24 3ABN wants to give it to you. 03:25 We offered right on the air. 03:27 And many of you saw that program that night 03:30 and you heard that offered that we made. 03:32 And we have always responding 03:34 when he's contacting us 03:36 and wanted to-- to make a statement. 03:39 And you know, we believe in this church. 03:41 We believe in its message. 03:43 And we support the worldwide outreach of this-- 03:48 of this denomination. 03:50 And so we-- we do support. 03:52 Our job, you know, lot of times people 03:53 will send me new theology. Yeah. 03:56 They'll say, what do you think about this? 03:58 And you know, Danny, that's not our calling. 04:02 Our calling is to present the message that that the-- 04:05 that the Biblical Research Institute 04:08 and others have carefully studied, 04:11 and it become part of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 04:14 That's--that's our position, not to make new theology. 04:17 Well, exactly. 04:18 And I want to go back to something my uncle, 04:20 all--and all we said, when I was young 04:22 'cause people would get up and-- 04:24 and we have the blase, 04:25 we believe they're from the Bible. 04:26 And somebody is always wanted to push those limits or say, 04:29 "Well, you should be able to do things 04:31 totally outside what is Biblical." Right. 04:33 Right now you see it in Protestant churches, 04:35 Catholic churches, the gay movements for instance. 04:38 If you say anything about it or take a stands 04:40 of what the Bible says then all of a sudden 04:43 they're not only, they're upset and they want to, 04:45 you know, like they did Chick-fil-A-- 04:47 That's right, that's right. And some of these folks 04:48 they want to do all those things, 04:49 but my Uncle Owen said, 04:50 "Look, folks, if you don't love it, leave it." 04:52 Otherwise start your own church. 04:54 And so we don't-- I don't say that 04:55 that's why I didn't say much last night. 04:57 Somebody said, "Danny, you didn't say much." 04:59 I said, "I weren't supposed to. 05:00 We were just helping. 05:01 Asking some questions to-- to Elder Wilson." 05:04 Yeah. But my thing is, there are some things 05:07 that are Biblical and-- and many things. 05:10 And we need to stick to that, 05:11 why do we try to pushing people do that. 05:14 Not, I'm talking about all the churches. Yeah. 05:16 And that's where that is going around the world. 05:19 And--and we know, Jim, right? 05:20 That's right. You know, Danny talk Chick-fil-A. 05:23 Comeal said to me, "Let's go eat a Chick-fil-A." 05:26 And I said, "Comeal, what in the world what we're eating." 05:29 What we're eating? And she said, 05:30 "Well, we got a fans, something 05:31 we could eat there." We'll find something. 05:32 Sure, there's something you can need or drink there. 05:34 May be some potatoes or something. 05:35 Absolutely. And but I-- 05:37 I tell you people should have the right 05:39 to make a statement about their beliefs. 05:42 Of course. And I don't know whatever their belief is. 05:45 Absolutely. And that that right is protected in this country, 05:49 freedom of speech is at least now. 05:52 It supposed to be. But that's what we're seeing, 05:54 and that's what's happening? 05:55 So what we're doing within the church 05:57 in our leadership is looking at different situations 06:00 within the church that are creeping in 06:03 and we want to deal with it. 06:04 And our Elder Wilson, God has put him here 06:06 for such an ours this. We're very supportive. 06:09 Tonight, Jim, let's spend a few minutes 06:11 talking about another very important topic 06:14 that's happening tonight in just a few moment. 06:16 You know, this is a spiritual formation 06:18 thing has been something that's crept into church. 06:22 I did not realize in all honesty 06:24 that it was around until just months ago. 06:27 But the truth of the matter is it has slowly crept in. 06:31 And the revival and reformation movement 06:34 that we have been such a part of at the General Conference 06:38 actually opened up the door 06:40 for very sincere people to be misled. 06:44 You know, the devil says, 06:45 "Okay, the people want to pray, 06:48 I'll teach them to pray." 06:49 And then he leads sincere people 06:53 into a method of prayer that is actually a demonic. 06:57 It is not a spiritual prayer. 07:01 Even though it's called a contemplative prayer 07:03 or spiritual formation. 07:05 When you actually begin to study, 07:07 you see that the roots of this go back into Hinduism 07:10 and other of the pagan religions. 07:13 And so this has become a method of prayer 07:18 for many of our believers. 07:20 And so tonight we're gonna have 07:22 some people that are there. 07:23 Now, if you've read a lot of books, 07:25 you've seen the name of Derrick Morris. 07:28 Derrick Morris is an individual who has been 07:31 a leader in bringing this 07:34 into the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 07:35 However tonight, we're gonna let Derrick 07:38 tell his own story, but I believe that you will see 07:41 if you listen to him 07:43 that he no longer holds those believes. 07:47 And there have been so many sincere people. 07:49 And I've known so many of them. 07:51 These are the people that spend 07:52 hours a day in prayer, folks. 07:54 And but they have followed 07:56 something without fully checking out its history 08:01 and where it came from? 08:02 And they fell into a pattern of prayer 08:05 that is not from the Lord and is not from the Bible. 08:10 And so tonight, we've gather together a group of people. 08:14 Dan Houghton called me a few weeks ago, 08:16 they have published a book 08:18 that there will be talking to you about. 08:20 And this book covers the history of spiritual formation 08:25 and contemplative prayer. 08:27 And it's a very direct book. 08:29 It talks about those that have been involved. 08:33 There have been a number of books 08:34 that have been written on the subjects. 08:36 Some of them have been fair 08:39 and some of them quite honestly haven't been quite as fair. 08:42 They have indited those who may be 08:44 should not have been indited in this particular subject. 08:48 But I believe this is the type of thing 08:51 that we want to bring to you often. 08:53 This is what Night Light is all about. 08:55 Night Light is a special program 08:57 we don't put it on every week, 08:59 but we try to bring special issues 09:01 to you with this program that may be facing the church. 09:06 And so we try to have those that understand 09:09 some of these issues, understand some of the problems 09:12 that we're facing to come and to address 09:15 those particular situation. 09:16 And I think God has raised 3ABN 09:18 for such an ours as from the very beginning. 09:21 We've always felt that we ought to be 09:22 able to stand up and tell the truth, yes. 09:25 Really that's what it's all about. 09:26 The truth will set us free. 09:28 And the truth and what are we have to go by. 09:30 How do we know what is truth? By the Bible. 09:32 When we stick to the principles of the Bible, 09:34 we let the Bible tell us what truth. 09:36 Jesus, of course is the he truth, 09:38 but how is the way to him. 09:39 And there are certain things that we know lot of things 09:42 it says we see through the glass darkly, 09:45 but soon or when Jesus come, 09:46 we'll see face-to-face. 09:48 But there are many things that's not negotiable, 09:50 that's giving and submitting our lives to Jesus. 09:54 The only way under heaven 09:56 that we can be saved the Bible says. 09:57 I hear ministers now. Another denominations, 10:00 I've seen them before saying, 10:02 "Well, you know, may be there is others ways." 10:03 They are afraid to offend people, 10:05 but while we have the freedom to-- 10:07 These folk can say what they want. 10:09 They can go out and have all of their gay right parties 10:11 and--and celebrations and whatever. 10:13 And again God loves and I do too. 10:16 I--I don't hate anybody love, 10:18 but God hates-- hates sin. 10:20 He loves to sinner. 10:21 So I think is these people have a right to say 10:24 what they want as you said freedom of speech. 10:26 That's right. And I believe as Christians 10:28 not to condemn somebody, 10:30 but to just simply put the truth out there 10:32 so people will know to make their decisions 10:35 is this right or this wrong. 10:37 So when we lead people to the Word of God, 10:39 somebody's always upset. Yeah. 10:41 But you know what? I think that's okay, right? 10:42 I do too. You know the Bible-- 10:44 Let people-- let people be upset 10:46 as you say one way to the other, 10:48 but let's do the best. 10:49 And we know how to do to get the truth out 10:51 'cause we're countable to God. Yes, we are. 10:53 With--with an organization like 3ABN 10:55 that can reach the world. 10:56 Sometimes silence is just not the right thing. 10:58 That's right. Well, you know, 10:59 the Bible says that "Satan as a roaring lion 11:03 goeth about seeking whom he may devour." 11:05 And so we no that we've got to watch 11:09 and be very careful for there will be great deceptions 11:13 in these last days. Well, right now, 11:15 I think they're ready on the stage at this time, Danny. 11:17 And so Pastor C.A. Murray is going to be 11:20 the moderator for this discussion. 11:22 And we will join Pastor Murray at this time with "Night Light." 11:29 Hello, and welcome to "Night Light." 11:32 We are gathered here tonight to dare I say, 11:35 demystify, demythologize, pull the cover off of something 11:40 that many of us see as a clear 11:42 and present danger to Christianity 11:45 in General and the Seventh-day Adventist Church in particular. 11:48 The very fact that we have this constellation 11:51 of gentleman here before me. 11:54 Some are clergy others are concern laypersons 11:57 gives voice to the fact that we care much about the church 12:01 that we love. We care much about the God of the church. 12:05 We have a passion and a love for our church, 12:08 and a corresponding distain for any ideology 12:11 that would seek to tear down or destroy 12:14 what God has built up through His church. 12:16 And so tonight we seek to talk to you 12:18 about the things of God, 12:20 to talk to you about those things 12:23 which are dare to our heart, 12:24 and dare to the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 12:26 You have heard the terms, centering prayer. 12:31 Other kinds of terms emerging church, 12:36 contemplative prayer. We've heard these terms. 12:39 Some may have heard them for the first times, 12:42 others you've heard them many, many times. 12:44 You may be wondering, what do they mean? 12:45 How do they impact the church? 12:47 What do they mean to us? 12:49 How should we deal with these terms 12:52 and with these ideologies? 12:53 Well, we seek this night to talk about those things 12:55 and try to set some light on these terms. 12:59 And to familiarize you with the dangers 13:02 that lies in some of these terms. 13:04 To my right, Dan Jackson 13:07 is a president of the North American Division. 13:09 Next to him is Frank Fournier, who is the president of ASI. 13:14 Next to Frank is Mark Finley, 13:16 Special Assistant to the General Conference President. 13:19 To my left, Derrick Morris, who is the-- 13:21 let's say Associate Ministry of Director 13:23 for the General Conference and Editor of Ministry Magazine. 13:27 Next to him, Harold Lance, 13:28 who is president of ASI Mission Inc., 13:31 and my friend, Dan Houghton 13:32 who is the president of Hart research Center. 13:34 So we are here to talk about the things of God. 13:36 And to inform you, to inspire, to encourage you as together 13:41 we seek to walk this road that leads to glory. 13:43 Before we launch out, would you now bow your heads 13:46 with me in a word of prayer? 13:49 Father God, we commit ourselves to You just now. 13:54 For You have said that you would never leave us, 13:56 nor for sake us. You've given us that promise. 14:01 You've also said that when we bow our knee 14:04 and lift up our hearts that there 14:06 is a God in heaven who answer. 14:09 And so, Lord, now we submit ourselves to You. 14:12 Be now the center 14:14 and circumference of this discussion. 14:16 May Christ be glorified? May truth be highlighted? 14:21 May error be exposed, and may we together 14:25 take one more step along that road that leads to glory. 14:30 We love You, Lord, we praise You, 14:32 and we thank You for Your promise to hear 14:35 and answer the prayer of faith in Jesus' 14:38 name, amen and amen. 14:41 There is a text that I should like to turn 14:43 you just before we start. 14:44 It's found in the Book of Ezekiel. 14:46 You know it well. It sort of gives justification 14:49 for our sitting here this night. 14:51 I mean, Ezekiel Chapter 33, just two verses 6 and 7. 14:57 "I'm sure you know it well. Ezekiel 33 verses 6 and 7. 15:03 The Lord of God says-- 15:04 I'm reading from the New King James, 15:05 " But if the watchman sees the sword 15:08 coming and does not blow the trumpet 15:11 and the people are not warned, and the sword comes 15:15 and takes any person from among them, 15:18 he is taken away in his iniquity, 15:20 but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand. 15:25 "So you, Son of man," I'm in verse 7. 15:28 "I have made you a watchman for the House of Israel. 15:32 Therefore you shall heal a-- hear a word from My mouth, 15:36 and warned them for me." 15:39 That ladies and gentlemen is why we are here. 15:41 When we see a danger to the House of God, 15:43 to the people of God, to the church of God, 15:46 men of good will, praying men, 15:49 Bible reading, and Bible studying 15:51 men and women have to lift up 15:53 their voice and speak for the Lord. 15:57 That again is why we're here. 15:58 I want to go to you-- Dan, I think first. 16:04 And let me say this because we've got a-- 16:07 we've got a bunch of preachers and former preachers 16:09 and preachers who just preached. 16:12 If you hear something sudden you want to way in on it. 16:15 And that may happen several times during the night. 16:17 I ask you just to go through the chairs 16:19 so that we can kind of just triarch who is speaking, 16:21 so one person doesn't step on another, 16:23 if we will do that. I think and those are really 16:24 the only rules we have, the more you talk the less 16:27 I have to and--and you have much more to say than I. 16:29 But, Dan, I want you to talk a little bit about 16:32 'cause we want to dealing, we want to deal with the-- 16:34 the energy that is driving some of this 16:36 and our desire as a church to get the truth out. 16:40 I want you to talk a little bit about what ASI and Hart 16:43 have done together as far as sending out 16:45 material and information that has gone across the field. 16:48 And then, Derrick, I want to come to you 16:50 and talk a little bit about ministry 16:51 and what ministry is doing? 16:52 Thank you, C. A. As far as Hart Research Center 16:56 in my personal involvement, 16:59 this came upon a radar screen with me 17:01 about seven years ago. Tom Mostert, 17:04 who is a retired president of the Pacific Union Conference, 17:07 wrote a book. Actually started out as a paper that was called, 17:10 "Is spiritualism entering the Seventh-day Adventist Church?" 17:13 That was ultimately published 17:15 by Pacific Press as a book called, "Hidden Heresy." 17:19 After I looked at that, you know, few years 17:21 went by a kind of fell off the radar screen, 17:23 about a year-and-a-half it came back up on my radar screen. 17:26 And I didn't have any idea 17:27 we were gonna go down this road. 17:30 But all of sudden is like the artic--the text you 17:33 read out of Ezekiel, C.A., 17:34 it's like you're a watchman on the walls 17:36 and you sense that there is something. 17:38 And I began to say, 17:40 "Well, I've got to respond to this." 17:42 And as I began to do that, 17:44 it was like the Lord opened doors 17:46 and there was first 50 watt light bulb 17:48 and then there was 500 watt light bulb, 17:49 and then there was 5,000 watt light bulb, 17:52 and 50,000 watt light bulb, 17:54 tonight there is a 500,000 watt light bulb 17:56 and may be the stadium lights are on across the nation 17:59 but the Lord has opened those doors. 18:01 And it wasn't something we intended to do, 18:03 but He has opened those. 18:05 And I'll let Harold speak to how ASI has been 18:08 getting into that because it's really important for Harold 18:11 to be able to speak to that. 18:12 He is the one that actually got ASI involved 18:15 than an ASI Mission's Inc. 18:17 We just happened to have the material closed by. 18:19 And of course, you know the book is published 18:21 by Pacific Press and Hart Research Center. 18:25 ASI has historically had a keen sense of the mission 18:31 and purpose of the Seventh-day Adventist Church 18:33 in its prophetic position. 18:35 And had a sense of-- of a deep felt belief 18:42 and support for the ministry 18:45 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church 18:46 and the messages of Ellen White 18:49 and the prophetic specialness that the church has. 18:54 And some years ago, four or five perhaps 18:58 may be six or seven, we became aware of the issues 19:01 of the emerging church in a contemplative prayer 19:04 and all of those issues. 19:05 And we have been looking for some vehicle 19:10 to bring this issue to the attention of the-- 19:14 of the church body and Christianity generally. 19:17 And it was not until probably six months or so ago. 19:22 We had a missionary friend from the far East, 19:27 Seventh-day Adventist Missionary 19:29 who wrote paper perhaps 10 or 15 pages on this topic 19:34 that express his own personal 19:36 lock of having been out in the world 19:40 and coming back and seen some things 19:42 from his former friends 19:44 at one of our Seventh-day Adventist Colleges 19:46 that were really disturbing to him. 19:48 He wrote a very challenging paper 19:50 that that some of us got and circulated 19:54 among the ASI leadership. 19:56 And it hid a-- it hid a real importance 20:01 spark with them too and it was out of that paper. 20:05 That let us to have a dialogue with Dan Houghton 20:09 about the upcoming release of the Peth book. 20:12 It was not yet out, the dangers of contemplative prayer. 20:16 And so from-- 20:18 from that impetus in December of last year, 20:24 the book came out and we said-- 20:27 I read it personally and advance copy 20:30 and I send it to the past presidents of ASI. 20:33 And said, "Would you read this book? 20:36 And tell us what you think about it?" 20:38 Whether or not would be appropriate 20:39 for ASI to become involved in it 20:41 and all of the past presidents of ASI 20:44 read the book were challenged by it, 20:46 I thought that was a powerful, 20:49 fair description of the problem 20:51 and the-- it was a good warning. 20:54 And so we brought the matter 20:56 to the ASI and ASI Mission's Inc. 20:59 boards and our meetings in February, 21:01 and got authorization to distribute the book 21:06 on a rather wide scale. 21:08 And so that's really how it got started. 21:12 And, C.A., I would just add to that that over, 21:14 you know, any good idea picks up steam, 21:17 you know, as it goes along. 21:19 I learned that Derrick and the ministerial team was going 21:22 to be dealing with this issue 21:23 in an upcoming Ministry Magazine. 21:25 And that's when we began connect and say, 21:28 "Would there be any possibility 21:29 that this could be a joint church lay initiative 21:32 instead of just ASI sending out a book." 21:35 What if we-- we're able to access 21:37 copies of that ministry magazine. 21:38 And so that's how this mailing came out which I hold that up. 21:43 This is the actually mailing that went out 21:45 just in the last week -and-a-half. 21:47 Many our leaders and ASI members like, 21:50 you know, about 19,000 copies have gone out 21:52 across North America in the last two weeks. 21:55 The idea being to shine a light on it 21:57 and let people be able to look at it and say, 22:00 "Hey,I need to see 22:01 if there's something new I need to check out." 22:04 So you have really put your money where your mouth is. 22:06 You--you felt that this was important 22:07 enough to send out 19,000 copies around the fields 22:10 so that men of learning and teaching would-- 22:13 would have this information? Absolutely. 22:15 Yeah. Derrick, you are Editor of Ministry Magazine, 22:18 you devoted almost an entire magazine 22:21 to this core subject and satellite subjects. 22:24 What drove you? What was the process 22:26 by which you came involved in this--in this venture? 22:28 Thank you, C.A., I'm so happy to be here tonight. 22:32 I think that this meeting 22:33 and this whole initiative is directed by God. 22:37 And perhaps, I have a unique perspective 22:41 in that 27 years ago, 22:45 I went down a path that later I found out was not Biblically 22:50 base in terms of spirituality. 22:52 May be we'll get a chance to talk about that. 22:54 And in fact to me the text that God has been leading me 22:59 back to over and over again is in First Thessalonians 23:02 5:21, it says, "Examine everything carefully, 23:09 hold fast what is good." Amen. 23:11 So we certainly are not oppose to prayer here, 23:14 we're not oppose to meditation if it's based in scripture. 23:19 We certainly not oppose to spirituality, 23:23 but unfortunately what's happening, C.A., 23:25 is that the term spirituality in the 21st Century 23:30 doesn't mean what it used to mean. 23:32 It's been detached from the scriptures by many. 23:36 It's even been detached from God. 23:39 And become very self-centered, 23:42 very self-serving, very subjective. 23:45 So the special issue of ministry 23:48 which I hold in my hand. 23:50 And by the way this is available for those 23:53 who are at the ASI Meeting 23:54 at the Ministerial Association Booth. 23:56 But I am happy to say it's also online, ministry-- 24:02 at the ministry magazine.org 24:03 website, ministry magazine.org. 24:06 That's available in 52 languages. 24:09 So we are serious about this message getting out. 24:13 Pastor Mark Finley wrote the lead article. 24:16 I wrote the editorial, which heard some of my story 24:19 of saying there may be some people who has seeking revival 24:23 and reformation, but might go down the wrong path. 24:28 That's what happened to me 27 years ago. 24:31 And I know the dangers. 24:33 And I'm thankful that we can talk candidly, 24:36 but also in a-- in a constructive positive way. 24:41 That can encourage man and woman 24:42 who are seeking a closer walk with God 24:45 to realize that the Bible must be 24:48 the foundation of our spiritual life. People say, 24:51 "Well, I don't need the Bible, I just need Jesus." 24:54 C.A., we don't even know about Jesus without the Bible. 24:57 So whatever Jesus you're seeking, 24:59 if that Jesus is not based in scripture. 25:03 May be new age psychic has a spirit guide, they call Jesus. 25:07 But unless we tested by the Word of God, 25:10 we'll be let astray. So I come back again 25:13 as the New King James says, "Test all things 25:16 and hold fast what is good." 25:19 Thank you, Derrick, very much. 25:20 Mark, I wanna swing to you 25:22 because you wrote one of the lead articles 25:24 in that magazine long, lengthy, 25:26 well-written article read it a number of times. 25:29 Tell me, what drove you to write that article 25:31 and what you are trying to say? 25:33 Oh, in the article in ministry, 25:35 my concern was not only to point out 25:39 the dangers of the false, but to reveal what the genuine is. 25:44 When you actually look at it, many churches, 25:49 both Seventh-day Adventist and Christian Churches 25:51 are locked in formalism. 25:54 They're locked in IC code rigid traditionalism. 26:02 Where there the warmth that the spirit is gone. 26:04 So on the one hand you have this IC code formalism, 26:07 ritualism. On the other hand, 26:10 there may be a reaction to that a seeking 26:14 for experience and experiential form of religion 26:18 which leads people to trust their experience 26:21 rather than the word. 26:23 The Bible says that in the last days 26:25 of earth's history, every wind of dark turn will be blowing. 26:30 So whether it's the IC wind of formalism 26:33 or whether it's the fiery breeze of fanaticism, 26:36 the devil doesn't care whether he get you 26:38 to go on the left or the right. So the article was an attempt 26:42 to reveal what is genuine spirituality. 26:45 What does it mean to have a genuine experience with God, 26:50 and how do you develop that experience, 26:54 through prayer, through Bible study? 26:56 And then on the other side of that question, 26:59 what are some of the dangerous 27:01 and signs of counterfeit spirituality? 27:03 And you know in John the 17 Chapter, 27:06 Jesus was about ready to go back to the Father. 27:10 And here in John 17 verse 1 through 3 Jesus spoke 27:16 these words and He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, 27:19 "Father the hour has come." The hour is death. 27:23 The hour of His leaving this planet. 27:27 The hour of the cross. And He says, 27:29 "Glorify your Son, that your Son may also glorify you." 27:33 Verse 2, "As you have given Him authority over all flesh, 27:37 that He should give eternal life 27:39 to as many as you have given Him." 27:41 Verse 3, "This is life eternal, 27:44 that they may know You, the only true God, 27:46 and Jesus Christ whom You've sent." 27:48 Jesus says that life eternal is knowing God, 27:52 having an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. 27:56 And so the question that the article 27:58 wanted to address was, how do you have 28:01 an intimate relationship with Jesus? 28:03 How can Jesus live in your life? 28:06 What is a genuine Christian experience, 28:08 and what are the dangers of a counterfeit 28:11 Christian experience? And how can you 28:13 tell the difference between the two? 28:15 Well done. Gentlemen, 28:16 let's--let's mind that just a little bit. 28:18 In a few moments I want to begin 28:20 the define some terms so that we're all talking 28:22 the same language, but I want to just open 28:25 it up for your thought on this. 28:28 There was more council in-- in Ellen White's 28:30 writings on formalism and coldness, 28:32 and is on the access of-- 28:34 of moving to the left, dare I say. 28:36 You've got more council against formal, 28:38 rigid, dogmatic, lifeless, Christless Church. 28:44 But suppose someone is in a spiritual rap. 28:47 They are victim of their own spiritual inertia. 28:50 And they want to get back to a close working, 28:55 vibrant, passionate relationship with God. 28:58 They just don't know have it. 28:59 How does one get out of that malaise? 29:04 How does one trump that that, 29:07 that jogging along when they want be a spiritual runner. 29:10 How do you do that? And is it--is it wrong 29:12 to find some little aids to help you 29:14 in that question. Derrick? 29:17 Well, I--I want to come back to something 29:19 that Mark said and something I said earlier. 29:22 One of the-- one of the initiatives 29:23 that we're working right now is called 29:25 revived by his word which is encouraging. 29:28 In fact, Pastor Mark Finley was instrumental 29:30 and putting to that initiative, visioning that initiative. 29:34 Reading the Bible each day, listening to the word of God, 29:38 I just interviewed a former pagan 29:41 idol worshipper from Madagascar. 29:44 You say, "Is he still a pagan idol worshipper." 29:47 No, he is a devoted follower of Jesus. 29:50 He is willing to lay down his life for Jesus. 29:53 How did he come to know Jesus? It was to reading the Bible, 29:58 not through just imagining Jesus 30:00 in a field of flower or somewhere. 30:02 And I say that, not flippantly because 30:04 when I was going down the wrong path 27 years ago, 30:08 one of the things we were encourage to do was, 30:12 well just imagine Jesus coming to you in a field of flowers 30:15 and listen to what He says? 30:17 C.A., how do you know that's Jesus? 30:20 Unless it's tested by the word. 30:23 This formal idol worshipper 30:24 was reading the Gospel of Matthew. 30:26 When he got to Matthew 26, 27, 28 we're talking 30:30 about reading the Bible everyday. 30:33 As he was reading the Bible, 30:35 the spirit of God touched his heart. 30:38 He said, "I love this man." Speaking about Jesus. 30:43 I am drawn to this man and the love that he showing me. 30:47 Now, the way that he received the truth 30:50 about Jesus was through the Bible. Uh-huh. 30:54 So I--I want to say one thing very clearly tonight to-- 30:57 to each person this joining us. If you're seeking that life 31:01 changing relationship with God, 31:03 it will not happen apart from the Bible. 31:07 Yes, we can experience peace 31:10 and joy and intimacy to know him, 31:13 but to try to find that path without the Bible 31:17 will lead us down a dangerous road. 31:22 You know, C.A., in Second Peter Chapter 1, 31:26 really to confirm what Derrick has said. 31:29 It's says--it's talking about the promises of God. 31:32 And it says, "By which have been given to us exceeding, 31:34 great, and precious promises." I got that. 31:37 The promises of God 31:38 are exceeding great and the precious." 31:41 That through these you may be partakers of the divine nature 31:44 having escape the corruption 31:46 that's in the world through lust." 31:48 As we read God's word prayerfully, 31:50 the same Holy Spirit that inspired 31:52 the Bible transforms our lives. 31:54 Just today I was talking to a ministerial colleague 31:57 who told me the story. 31:59 We were talking about revived by His word. 32:02 Thousands of Seventh-day Adventist on a journey together 32:07 all around the world in reading the Word of God. 32:10 There is a young man in an Adventist Christian 32:11 College who went to college totally overwhelmed 32:15 by the academics of college 32:17 and really was kind of on the margins 32:20 of the Adventist Church had a very a lukewarm, 32:23 very complacent spiritual experience. 32:25 He began daily joining with those of us 32:29 who are reading the Bible everyday prayerfully, 32:32 praying over its passages, 32:35 and the Holy Spirit just transformed his life. 32:38 And now he testifies of the intimate experience 32:42 he has with Jesus. I love personally 32:46 to combine prayer and Bible study. 32:48 So I read a few passages of scripture. 32:51 Pray over what I've just read. 32:53 Read a few more passages, pray over it. 32:55 Because as you read the Bible 32:57 God is speaking to you through His word, 33:00 so one cannot divorce a vital Christian 33:05 experience from the Word of God 33:08 and as you read the Bible and pray over what you've read. 33:11 In prayer we talk back to God through His word. 33:14 He talks back to us. 33:16 And the Holy Spirit takes the word transforms our lives. 33:21 Amen. Dan? 33:23 You know, I-- I believe that in-- 33:27 in what I'm hearing, Mark and Derrick say, 33:32 that we--we need to root our-- our spiritual experience 33:36 in the Word of God. But there is another dimension. 33:41 And I believe that dimension Ellen White 33:42 some said at very nicely when she says, 33:45 "We must live for Christ moment by moment, 33:49 hour by hour, day by day." And then she says, 33:53 "Our spiritual life will take off." 33:55 So we take the authority of God's word 33:59 and we apply it to our life and turn up practical living 34:02 and we begin to grow up into Jesus. 34:06 So it is. God does speak to us. 34:09 I'm looking at this passage in First Corinthians 34:12 Chapter 2 verse 9, where Paul says to the Corinthians 34:16 however as it is written, "What no eye has seen, 34:19 what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived, 34:24 the things God has prepared for those who love him." 34:27 And Paul, even though we apply this text to heaven. 34:31 That no eye has seen. And heaven will be spectacular. 34:34 The context of that passage is that 34:36 when we get in contact with the Word of God, 34:39 God reveals to us the things 34:42 about Himself through the spirit. 34:44 So this is a very exciting thing. 34:46 And the Word of God then becomes the living Word of God. 34:52 Amen. Amen. 34:53 C.A.? Yes. 34:54 What's being shared here obviously, is this thing on? 34:58 Oh yeah.Yeah, what's being shared here is-- 35:00 is obviously how we can have a true experience, 35:03 but this isn't what is being offered 35:06 to Seventh-day Adventist 35:08 and to other Christians in the world. 35:09 They're being offered 35:11 and experience of direct connection with God. 35:14 And you have to put yourself into the-- 35:16 in the minds of these other-- of these people. 35:19 Who can think in terms of being directly connected with God? 35:22 How would you like to have a an experience 35:25 like that with God where through a means of self-hypnosis, 35:27 you can find the reach the spot 35:31 where God speaks to you directly, 35:35 wouldn't you like to have an experience like that? 35:38 I mean, it would seem to be amazing. 35:40 But the problem with that, and I really don't know 35:43 if I can explain it, 35:44 but it really becomes righteousness 35:47 by experience rather than righteousness by faith. 35:50 You don't need faith anymore. 35:52 If God can communicate with you everyday 35:55 personally it's not righteousness by faith, 35:59 it's righteousness by experience. 36:00 And what we have been saying here 36:02 is when we're dealing with the Word of God 36:04 and we read, and we pray, and we communicate with God 36:08 it's not direct, we still need an element of faith. 36:12 And right there you can see that 36:13 there is something wrong with that experience. 36:17 Dan? C.A., you know, I have my iPhone 36:20 with my Bible on it here, 36:21 and I enjoy caring that, so I always have it with me. 36:24 My Bible's always with me. 36:25 But I tell you one of the things 36:26 that is the most valuable in my spiritual life 36:29 that keeps me from the very thing 36:31 that Frank was just talking about. 36:33 I love to read my Bible. 36:36 I enjoyed early in the morning, 36:39 late at night, in the middle of the day, 36:40 and I am just finishing marking my fourth Bible. 36:45 Red pencil, ruler, go through, 36:48 and mark it as I hear the voice speaking to me, 36:51 I will finish in about two weeks another round of that. 36:54 Then I'll be looking to start over again. 36:55 I got to find another Bible to do that. 36:57 And you know what? There is something 36:58 about that for me that just means everything. 37:04 Derrick? I appreciate what Dan said about the spirit revealing. 37:09 It's says, "God is reveal them to us through His spirit." 37:11 The text that you quoted. 37:13 And I think, I remember a young lady said to me, 37:16 I don't need the Bible anymore because I have the spirit. 37:21 But--but Jesus said, John 14, 37:25 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, 37:28 whom the Father will send in my name, 37:31 he will teach you all things." 37:32 But then it says, "And bring to your remembrance." Yes. 37:37 "The things I've said to you." 37:38 So what Dan's talking about, 37:40 what the revived by his word initiative is encouraging? 37:43 Is through a daily reading of scripture, 37:47 we are safe guarded. 37:48 And now we're gonna talk about definitions in a minute. 37:51 But for example, a person says, 37:52 "Well, this is prayer. 37:54 You just take this mantra and like Jesus or 37:58 and you say it over and over again." 38:00 If I have been saturating my mind with Word of God, 38:03 the Holy Spirit will help me to avoid that deception. 38:08 And because Jesus said, 38:09 why do not pray with vain repetitions 38:12 as the heathen do right there in Matthew Chapter 6. 38:17 So again the spirit I believe in that 38:21 dynamic dimension of the Christian life, 38:24 but the spirit always points us back to the word. 38:28 He is the spirit of truth. 38:30 And so the foundation has to be the scripture. 38:35 Yeah. C.A., let me jump in here just for a second. 38:37 And come in what Derrick has been saying, 38:39 you know, kind of follow upon that. 38:41 When you actually think about it, 38:42 how does the Holy Spirit change your life? 38:45 How does the Holy Spirit communicate to you? 38:48 Doesn't communicate with your thumb or your big toe? 38:51 What does it mean that we are created 38:52 in the Image of God? 38:54 The Bible says in Romans 12 verse 1. 38:57 It says, "Be not conformed to this world, 38:59 but be transformed by the renewing of your mind." 39:03 So that which enables us to be created 39:05 in the image of God 39:07 is the ability to think to reason, 39:09 the fact that we have cognitive reasoning abilities, 39:11 the fact that we can know God through our mind. 39:15 So how then are we transformed into His image? 39:18 As we read God's word, 39:20 the Holy Spirit takes the principles of the word 39:23 and transforms our thinking process, 39:27 so that we're more or like Christ. 39:29 So the Holy Spirit is constantly working 39:32 in our lives through the word, 39:36 He is constantly working in our minds 39:38 to bring conviction, to bring understanding, 39:41 to bring the depths, 39:42 so we can reveal the lovely character 39:44 of Jesus in our lives. 39:47 What is that then say about true 39:49 and false Christian experience? 39:52 And true Christian experience, 39:54 the spirit works on the mind 39:57 to transforms the thinking process. 40:00 "Let this mind be in you 40:01 that was in Christ Jesus our Lord." 40:03 In false experience, we are let to so called 40:08 that discover the God within ourselves 40:12 and try to come to a experience of peace 40:16 and oneness with God 40:19 in a mystical experience within ourselves. 40:23 And so the difference is between the Holy Spirit 40:26 transforming our mind through the word 40:29 and an emotional experience of so called peace. 40:34 There is a major difference between the two. 40:36 Well said. You know, I think we're saying. 40:39 I'm hearing you say that there is a subjective reality 40:42 to all our Christian experiences 40:44 because we're all individuals, 40:46 but that subjective reality must be held in check 40:49 to the objective reality of the Word of God. 40:52 So whatever you're going through 40:53 has to be subject and agree with, 40:56 and lined up with the Word of God. Is that not so? 40:59 Amen. All right. Dan? 41:00 You know, I go back to the scriptures again 41:02 to reaffirm what Mark is saying, 41:05 and to say that there is that personal dimension. 41:07 However when the spirit of God is 41:10 in our live when the spirit is truly there, 41:13 it will always lead us back to Christ 41:16 because Christ is the center and the substance of our faith. 41:20 When Paul talk to the Ephesians, 41:21 He said that, "I pray that out of his glorious riches 41:25 he may strengthen you with his power 41:28 through his Spirit in your inner being." 41:31 So he talks about that, but then he says, 41:33 "So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, 41:37 and I pray that you, being rooted 41:39 and established in love 41:40 may have power together with the Lord's people, 41:43 all the Lord's people to grasp, wide, 41:45 and long and deep is the love of Christ, 41:48 and to know all about God." 41:50 That's what he goes on to say. 41:51 And the fact is, 41:52 and I think what Mark is saying is absolutely correct. 41:55 That the true guidance of the Holy Spirit 41:57 always directs us upward 42:00 to Christ to the Heavenly Father, 42:02 so that we're not looking within for answers, 42:05 we're looking to Him for answers. 42:07 And that gets exciting because God said--Paul says, 42:10 "You will find out how broad and how wide, 42:14 and how deep the love of Christ is 42:16 when you do that kind of research." 42:18 You don't find it in our self, you find it in Christ. 42:21 Praise the God. Dan? 42:24 I just wanted to follow up 42:25 on something Frank said a moment ago. 42:28 Have you ever been in a situation 42:29 where you wanted to have divine guidance 42:32 and making a decision? 42:33 And you are just seeking and saying, 42:35 "Lord, I just wish that I had a Urim and Thummim." 42:39 You know, isn't that a common thing to all humanity? 42:42 We would like to know. Well, God please, 42:44 if You just tell me, I'll do what You want me to do. 42:47 And I think that there is a-- for whatever reason 42:50 God has chosen to reveal Himself to His word 42:52 to us in this generation, in this time. 42:55 But there is an-- there is an appeal to that. 42:57 And whenever there is an offer in spirituality 43:02 that can lead you that direction, 43:04 I can understand the appeal of that to the human mind. 43:10 All right. The truth of the matter is 43:14 as we begin to divine some terms 43:16 that the--the lexicon of our lives changes. 43:19 Words atrophy, sometimes meanings are hijacked, 43:23 things changes over the course of time. 43:26 What was the good word? 43:27 In one error can become a bad word 43:29 and another error what was the sanctified word, 43:32 in one error can become a curse word in another error. 43:34 So we need to define some terms. 43:37 And let's start at the shallow into the pool 43:39 and let's look at just spirituality. 43:41 Who wants to take a shadow of that? 43:42 What does spirituality mean? Derrick? 43:47 We used to assume that spirituality meant 43:51 a relationship with God. 43:54 Most of us the generation 43:56 we grew up in that's what it meant? 43:59 And that's why when we speak even 44:01 about a word like spiritual and formation, 44:04 formation is good, transformation, sanctification, 44:09 but what happens is like the term used, 44:12 C.A., hijacked, sometimes the term can be hijacked. 44:16 And what--what we used to think was spiritual 44:19 as in based on relationship with God through His word, 44:24 through His Son Jesus. 44:26 Now, becomes an umbrella under 44:28 which all kinds of non-biblical, 44:31 non--Christian ideas can be pushed. 44:35 And what happens is people then come and they say, 44:38 "Well, we're talking about spirituality." 44:42 But it may have nothing to do with God 44:44 and nothing to do with scripture. 44:46 I think that one of the reasons. 44:48 For example, in the special issue, 44:50 we called it Biblical Spirituality. 44:53 We didn't use to have to say that. 44:56 We just assumed when we talked about spirituality 44:59 that the Bible was the foundation. 45:01 But I don't think we can assume that anymore. 45:05 And so we need to use that terms wisely, 45:08 I think we need to talk about Biblical Spirituality. 45:11 When we talk-- another example, for example, 45:14 we talked about meditation. 45:16 Our heritages, a movement, 45:18 Ellen White encourages spent a thoughtful hour 45:21 each day in contemplation of the life of Christ. 45:25 Take it scene by scene. 45:27 But if you read what she said 45:28 and in "Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing" 45:30 page 1 about going with the disciples 45:32 on the- on the mountain. 45:34 It always takes us back to the Bible. 45:38 So in past generations when we spoke of spirituality, 45:42 the Bible was right with it. 45:43 Today there's been this dislocation. 45:48 And so I think what we need to ask is, 45:50 is this Biblical Spirituality? 45:53 Well done. Anyone else? 45:56 You've asked for the definition of spirituality. 46:00 Let me suggest the definition 46:02 that would go something like this. 46:05 If you look at Paul's writings, 46:08 particularly Romans 7 and Romans 8, 46:10 Paul talks about the cornel mind 46:12 and the spiritual mind. 46:15 Cornel has to be earthly, 46:18 spiritual would be in the realm of eternal things. 46:22 So Biblical Spirituality is the focus of the heart 46:27 and mind on the eternal things of the Kingdom of God. 46:32 So that my life is transformed 46:34 and my desire is to glorify God 46:37 and witness for Him. 46:39 Biblical Spirituality is rooted on the things of eternity. 46:44 It is not men focused, but it's God focused. 46:48 It's not experience focused, it's biblically focused. 46:52 It's not self focused, it's service focused. 46:57 Well said. Harold? 46:59 You know, it seems to me that kind of putting together 47:04 what the various once of us have said that 47:10 we need to be very sensitive to the good faith, 47:14 if you will of the seeker. 47:18 The seeker that we're talking about 47:21 and hopeful of helping is someone 47:24 who truly wants to know God better. 47:27 That's the goal. That's the hope of their heart. 47:32 And I suppose that may be if there is one thing 47:36 that we might do is to be able to put up a stop sign 47:42 that says to that person, 47:44 "If the path that you're taking 47:46 to find God bypasses reason, 47:51 bypasses scripture, 47:53 bypasses a true knowledge of God, 47:57 and jumps directly into some relationship 48:02 that's a--that's a real warning sign to stay away. 48:07 And to realize that that path leads us no place, 48:11 but to the devil hands. 48:15 When you define what something is you- 48:17 you Ipso facto defined what it is not? 48:20 You--you alluded to Derrick meditation. 48:23 Let's--let's try to take a look at, 48:25 what is good meditation? What is bad meditation? 48:27 We have that quote. 48:28 Well, Ellen White says, "We do well." 48:30 To spend a few thoughtful moments each day, 48:33 meditating on the life of Christ, 48:35 and the acts of Christ. So what's good mediation? 48:38 What's bad meditation? 48:39 What should we encourage? What should we discourage? 48:42 I wanna thank Harold 48:43 for what he said earlier about genuine secrets 48:47 because I can give my testimony that 27 years ago 48:51 when I really felt this longing in my heart 48:54 for a closer relationship with God, 48:56 I was not trying to go down the wrong path. 48:59 And so I was seeking. 49:02 And read the book, 49:05 Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster. 49:09 Listen to some thoughts about meditation, 49:13 heard people talk about imagining Jesus, 49:17 but it wasn't rooted in the Bible. 49:20 I wish I could tell you that I immediately saw that, 49:24 but I think Harold was right 49:25 and saying that sometimes when people are really seeking, 49:30 they may take a turn down the wrong path 49:32 and someone needs to hold up that, 49:34 some watchman needs to blow a trumpet 49:36 to use the text you read, C.A., the beginning. 49:40 The danger, and I think Mark alluded to at the very, 49:43 very beginning is that we say, 49:45 "Oh, that's bad, I'm not gonna do any kind of meditation." 49:49 When the Bible is filled with an admonition 49:52 to meditate upon the Word of God? 49:54 The writings of Ellen White are filled with encouragement, 49:58 you sited from Desire of Ages, page 83. 50:02 Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing, 50:03 page 1 about the Sermon on the Mount. 50:06 So if I'm going to follow a Biblical Spirituality 50:11 in terms of meditation, 50:13 I'm going to read a passage of scripture, 50:16 I am going to think about it. 50:18 Mark talked about thoughtful prayer contemplation. 50:23 I'm going to ask as-- as Dan said, 50:25 "How may I going to live this? 50:28 What's they can look like in life? 50:30 And then, C.A., 50:31 and I think this is crucially important 50:34 because I'm following a Biblical Spirituality. 50:37 Whatever conclusion I come to, 50:40 I then test that by the scripture 50:44 because the conclusion will never be from my meditation 50:48 that I should leave my spouse 50:50 and--and move in with the person next door. 50:54 A spirit guide or a Jesus impersonator could say that, 51:00 but the Bible will never say that. 51:03 And so as I meditate upon the word, 51:05 I'm basing my-- you talk about meditation as- 51:09 as an example, I'm basing my reflection 51:11 on a passage of scripture. 51:13 Story of Jesus, sitting on the mountain 51:16 and saying to the people, 51:18 "You are the light of the world." 51:20 And I meditate, what is that mean? 51:22 I thought Jesus was the light of the world. 51:23 John 8 verse 12. But then He says, 51:27 "He who follows me will no walk in darkness, 51:29 but have the light of life." So what does that mean? 51:32 That Jesus Christ in me the hope of glory. 51:34 So I reflect on that based on scripture. 51:37 Then whatever conclusion I come to 51:40 I'm willing to test that by the Bible. 51:42 I will not be let astray if I-- 51:46 if I base my reflection on scripture 51:49 and test my conclusion by scripture 51:52 because the word testifies, your word is a lamp--Yes. 51:55 To my feet and a light to my path. 51:58 So we're not excluding 52:00 that experiential knowledge of God, 52:03 but if I'm not gonna be let astray, 52:05 I have to base it on the word and tested by the word. 52:09 C.A., let me jump in here. 52:12 There is a vast difference 52:14 between eastern meditation and Christian meditation. 52:19 They start in two fundamentally different places. 52:24 And it has to do with the definition 52:27 of the nature of man 52:29 and the immortality of the soul. 52:31 In eastern mysticism the concept is that 52:36 every human being has within them this immortal soul. 52:40 And that immortal soul in eastern mysticism 52:44 is the spark of God within. 52:46 So when eastern mysticism, 52:48 you attempt enter into the deepest part of your being 52:54 and you attempt to get in touch 52:57 with this immortality within you. 53:00 And in that way, you silence your thoughts. 53:04 In that way, you're at peace with yourself 53:07 and with God within you, and you become one with God. 53:11 Now, in many of the eastern philosophies, 53:15 Buddhism for example, 53:17 after death there is no real heaven 53:20 but there is this oneness 53:22 with the divine almost a Nirvana experience. 53:25 So eastern mysticism starts with the concept 53:29 of the immortality of the soul, 53:31 it's starts with the concept of getting in touch with God 53:35 within yourself which is that divine portion. 53:38 Biblical Christianity is dramatically different. 53:42 Jeremiah 17 verse 9, 53:44 "The heart is deceitful above all things, 53:46 and desperately wicked. 53:48 Jeremiah 13:33. 53:50 "Can the leopard change his spots 53:52 or the Ethiopian skin?" You go in the Jeremiah talks about, 53:58 no neither can you change your lives 54:01 without Christ is the whole implication of Jeremiah 13. 54:04 Isaiah 53, "All we like sheep have gone astray." 54:08 So in Biblical Christianity, 54:09 the nature of human being is fallen 54:12 so we don't look within ourselves, 54:15 in our meditation. Isaiah 45:22, 54:19 "Look unto me, and be ye saved, 54:21 all the ends of the earth, for I am God, 54:22 and there is none else." That Jesus says. 54:23 So we're looking out of ourselves. 54:25 We don't find answers within ourselves 54:27 we find answers out of ourselves. 54:29 We're looking to Christ. 54:31 We're looking at His word. 54:32 In genuine Christian meditation, 54:35 we meditate on the Word of God, 54:38 the works of God, 54:39 in nature His might of creation. 54:43 We meditate on the cross of Calvary 54:45 and the greatness of Christ. 54:47 And by looking out of ourselves to the goodness of God, 54:50 His grace, His mercy by pausing 54:52 and meditating on the acts of Jesus Christ on the cross, 54:57 on meditating on His life. 54:59 We are transformed into His likeness. 55:02 Looking into our self, 55:04 we only find sin and guilt, and shame. 55:08 Looking to Him, we find hope and salvation. 55:11 And that's essentially the different. 55:13 Eastern meditation, 55:14 Christian meditation start in two different places. 55:17 Frank? I was just sitting here thinking 55:20 one of these questions pretty soon is going to be, 55:23 do you meditate? How do you meditate? 55:26 And I've had to think in my head, do I meditate? 55:30 I have been a Seventh-day Adventist for 37 years, 55:34 and I don't remember saying to myself at anytime. 55:38 I am going to go in my bedroom 55:40 and I am going to meditate. 55:42 We don't seem to equate the same thing 55:45 as do the eastern religions. 55:47 In the same term, I'll spend an hour 55:49 with the Lord communing with God, 55:51 conversing with God with what I read, 55:53 and I respond, I pray aloud, 55:56 I think that's most profitable way to pray. 56:01 In the evening, I go up the mountain 56:02 I'll talk with God about everything 56:04 I need to talk to Him about. 56:06 The only time I come really close 56:08 to what I suppose someone would call meditation is 56:11 when I'm preparing a sermon 56:13 because I've got to draw out of the text, what it is? 56:16 I want to speak on. 56:18 And so then when I prepare sermons then I stop 56:23 and I think and I pray and I plead, 56:27 and I just ask God to reveal to me 56:29 what it is I must see in adverse 56:31 so that I can feed the sheep. 56:33 You understand? Is that meditation? 56:37 That's a kind of recall question. 56:39 May be Dan has an answer for that. 56:41 You know, I just wanted to respond 56:43 what I heard Mark saying. 56:46 You know, Biblical Christianity commands us 56:50 with the God who is above me, 56:52 the God who is the most high, 56:55 the one who I honor. 56:57 Whereas eastern mysticism makes me God ultimately. 57:01 The God within. You know, 57:04 and it's a very foreign concept to Christianity. 57:06 It is even blasphemies in terms of what the scripture says, 57:10 because I become God, and God isn't God anymore. 57:13 So that--so that the real idea here is 57:17 that it always true, 57:19 genuine Biblical Christianity will always have me 57:23 raise my eyes to the most high God. 57:26 It will never ever point me within 57:30 Well done and well said. 57:31 Derrick, we have to yield to the Tierney of television 57:35 and take a two minute break, if you can hold that thought 57:37 we'll pick it up on when we return, 57:40 then I really want to look at what centering prayer, 57:43 contemplative prayer is. 57:44 We'll do that when we come back. |
Revised 2014-12-17