Hi, this is coming to you
live from Cincinnati, Ohio.
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And, Danny, it has really
been a tremendous ASI so far.
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It has. And how
about the last song?
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Wow. Do you know
that guy, who was he?
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That's John Bradshaw--
Is that John Bradshaw?
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I thought he was a preacher.
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You know, I saw the
name on the schedule.
00:00:41.45\00:00:43.50
It said, John
Bradshaw was singing.
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Sing-- And I thought no he
must be preaching and then--
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Me too. That said, four minutes.
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And I said,
"Wow, he can't preach
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much in four minutes."
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So I said, he must be then
it must be really be singing.
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You know what? He
has a really pure.
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He sing from the heart.
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I was blessed by
it, and I have to admit
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I kind of raise my
hand to--to the Lord.
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John, I love that. That's great.
00:01:04.58\00:01:06.17
I love that song.
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And we've had him
in our Camp Meetings
00:01:07.18\00:01:08.23
and never had him sing so--
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No. Now, the cat is out the bag.
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That's it. Everybody
in the world church knows
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that he is not only a
preacher, but he is a singer.
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I'll tell you
someone else who is a singer.
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No. And he will
deny it, but it's true.
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He has a beautiful voice
used to be a singing evangelist.
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He is sitting right next to me.
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And his name is Gilley.
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He is a cousin to Mickey Gilley,
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but I think he
sounds better now.
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Now, Mickey,
you're a great singer too,
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but--but Jim
Gilley does sing well,
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I promise you that's the true.
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You know one
thing I've learned about
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Danny is he loves to have fun.
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And he is always pulling my leg.
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And he is pulling yours,
when he tells you I am a singer.
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But you did. You did.
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Well, you were
singing evangelist, right?
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Yeah, that's true.
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It was a kind of--
kind of droughts, you know--
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No it wasn't, no it wasn't.
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But you know last--
last night I really thought
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and we've had a
lot of the people
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that have contacted us.
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You know, more of
the things I found out.
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If you can make
people on both sides,
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mad at Jim, you
probably have been fair.
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And so last night Elder Wilson--
00:02:07.36\00:02:10.97
We--our job was
simply to present
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the General
Conference President,
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ask him some
questions, and then he was to be
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the one to take the
positions and he did.
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Yeah, he did. Mark Finley
with him and-- Mark Finley.
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You know that Brad
Thorp and Jim and--and myself.
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And I mean, honestly
3ABN is facilitating this.
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And we want to do more of this
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because there are certain things
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coming down the
pike within the church
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that we want to talk about.
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No, we're not talking
about airing dirty laundry,
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but we're talking
doing just like last night.
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Absolutely.
Nobody is doing any--
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trying to be
positive, as positive as we can,
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but preaching and
encouraging people
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and unity together one faith,
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one God, go on doctrine,
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go on forward to
get this gospels,
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the king--kingdom in
through all the world.
00:02:54.82\00:02:56.62
And the devil
wants to divide that,
00:02:56.63\00:02:58.84
a house divided
against itself cannot stand.
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And so that's why 3ABN
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has joining hands
with Elder Wilson,
00:03:04.17\00:03:06.56
the church and giving
the airways to the church.
00:03:06.57\00:03:09.38
As you said last night,
Jim, that you offered right
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after literally in Atlanta,
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Elder Wilson came
over cross the hill
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where we there and you
said anytime you want the--
00:03:16.80\00:03:20.72
the 3ABN's audience
which is a worldwide audience,
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3ABN wants to give it to you.
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We offered right on the air.
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And many of you saw
that program that night
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and you heard that
offered that we made.
00:03:30.46\00:03:32.60
And we have always responding
00:03:32.61\00:03:34.34
when he's contacting us
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and wanted to--
to make a statement.
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And you know, we
believe in this church.
00:03:39.82\00:03:41.49
We believe in its message.
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And we support the
worldwide outreach of this--
00:03:43.84\00:03:48.43
of this denomination.
00:03:48.44\00:03:50.19
And so we-- we do support.
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Our job, you know,
lot of times people
00:03:52.46\00:03:53.83
will send me new theology. Yeah.
00:03:53.84\00:03:56.28
They'll say, what do
you think about this?
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And you know, Danny,
that's not our calling.
00:03:58.90\00:04:02.08
Our calling is to present
the message that that the--
00:04:02.09\00:04:05.74
that the Biblical
Research Institute
00:04:05.75\00:04:08.70
and others have
carefully studied,
00:04:08.71\00:04:11.29
and it become part of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
00:04:11.30\00:04:14.31
That's--that's our position,
not to make new theology.
00:04:14.32\00:04:17.15
Well, exactly.
00:04:17.16\00:04:18.58
And I want to go back
to something my uncle,
00:04:18.59\00:04:20.54
all--and all we
said, when I was young
00:04:20.55\00:04:22.63
'cause people would get up and--
00:04:22.64\00:04:24.12
and we have the blase,
00:04:24.13\00:04:25.51
we believe
they're from the Bible.
00:04:25.52\00:04:26.90
And somebody is always wanted
to push those limits or say,
00:04:26.91\00:04:29.37
"Well, you should
be able to do things
00:04:29.38\00:04:31.59
totally outside
what is Biblical." Right.
00:04:31.60\00:04:33.84
Right now you see it
in Protestant churches,
00:04:33.85\00:04:35.85
Catholic churches, the
gay movements for instance.
00:04:35.86\00:04:38.10
If you say anything
about it or take a stands
00:04:38.11\00:04:40.76
of what the Bible
says then all of a sudden
00:04:40.77\00:04:43.10
they're not only,
they're upset and they want to,
00:04:43.11\00:04:45.16
you know, like
they did Chick-fil-A--
00:04:45.17\00:04:47.24
That's right, that's
right. And some of these folks
00:04:47.25\00:04:48.24
they want to do
all those things,
00:04:48.25\00:04:49.63
but my Uncle Owen said,
00:04:49.64\00:04:50.85
"Look, folks, if you
don't love it, leave it."
00:04:50.86\00:04:52.59
Otherwise start your own church.
00:04:52.60\00:04:54.45
And so we
don't-- I don't say that
00:04:54.46\00:04:55.86
that's why I didn't
say much last night.
00:04:55.87\00:04:57.54
Somebody said,
"Danny, you didn't say much."
00:04:57.55\00:04:59.48
I said, "I weren't supposed to.
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We were just helping.
00:05:00.53\00:05:01.75
Asking some questions
to-- to Elder Wilson."
00:05:01.76\00:05:04.65
Yeah. But my thing
is, there are some things
00:05:04.66\00:05:07.44
that are Biblical
and-- and many things.
00:05:07.45\00:05:10.13
And we need to stick to that,
00:05:10.14\00:05:11.47
why do we try to
pushing people do that.
00:05:11.48\00:05:14.13
Not, I'm talking about
all the churches. Yeah.
00:05:14.14\00:05:16.34
And that's where that
is going around the world.
00:05:16.35\00:05:19.34
And--and we know, Jim, right?
00:05:19.35\00:05:20.89
That's right. You
know, Danny talk Chick-fil-A.
00:05:20.90\00:05:23.65
Comeal said to me,
"Let's go eat a Chick-fil-A."
00:05:23.66\00:05:26.95
And I said, "Comeal, what in
the world what we're eating."
00:05:26.96\00:05:29.48
What we're eating? And she said,
00:05:29.49\00:05:30.48
"Well, we got a fans, something
00:05:30.49\00:05:31.61
we could eat there."
We'll find something.
00:05:31.62\00:05:32.61
Sure, there's something
you can need or drink there.
00:05:32.62\00:05:34.00
May be some
potatoes or something.
00:05:34.01\00:05:35.57
Absolutely. And but I--
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I tell you people
should have the right
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to make a statement
about their beliefs.
00:05:39.87\00:05:42.11
Of course. And I don't
know whatever their belief is.
00:05:42.12\00:05:45.70
Absolutely. And that that right
is protected in this country,
00:05:45.71\00:05:49.57
freedom of
speech is at least now.
00:05:49.58\00:05:52.25
It supposed to be. But
that's what we're seeing,
00:05:52.26\00:05:54.54
and that's what's happening?
00:05:54.55\00:05:55.68
So what we're
doing within the church
00:05:55.69\00:05:57.67
in our leadership is
looking at different situations
00:05:57.68\00:06:00.61
within the church
that are creeping in
00:06:00.62\00:06:03.00
and we want to deal with it.
00:06:03.01\00:06:04.23
And our Elder
Wilson, God has put him here
00:06:04.24\00:06:06.82
for such an ours
this. We're very supportive.
00:06:06.83\00:06:09.59
Tonight, Jim,
let's spend a few minutes
00:06:09.60\00:06:11.70
talking about
another very important topic
00:06:11.71\00:06:14.74
that's happening
tonight in just a few moment.
00:06:14.75\00:06:16.64
You know, this is
a spiritual formation
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thing has been something
that's crept into church.
00:06:18.82\00:06:22.09
I did not realize in all honesty
00:06:22.10\00:06:24.32
that it was around
until just months ago.
00:06:24.33\00:06:27.59
But the truth of the matter
is it has slowly crept in.
00:06:27.60\00:06:31.59
And the revival and
reformation movement
00:06:31.60\00:06:34.85
that we have been such a part
of at the General Conference
00:06:34.86\00:06:38.47
actually opened up the door
00:06:38.48\00:06:40.44
for very sincere
people to be misled.
00:06:40.45\00:06:44.42
You know, the devil says,
00:06:44.43\00:06:45.42
"Okay, the people want to pray,
00:06:45.43\00:06:48.01
I'll teach them to pray."
00:06:48.02\00:06:49.59
And then he leads sincere people
00:06:49.60\00:06:53.13
into a method of prayer
that is actually a demonic.
00:06:53.14\00:06:57.95
It is not a spiritual prayer.
00:06:57.96\00:07:01.27
Even though it's
called a contemplative prayer
00:07:01.28\00:07:03.67
or spiritual formation.
00:07:03.68\00:07:05.10
When you
actually begin to study,
00:07:05.11\00:07:06.97
you see that the roots of
this go back into Hinduism
00:07:06.98\00:07:10.48
and other of
the pagan religions.
00:07:10.49\00:07:13.15
And so this has
become a method of prayer
00:07:13.16\00:07:18.11
for many of our believers.
00:07:18.12\00:07:20.36
And so tonight we're gonna have
00:07:20.37\00:07:22.68
some people that are there.
00:07:22.69\00:07:23.74
Now, if you've
read a lot of books,
00:07:23.75\00:07:25.79
you've seen the
name of Derrick Morris.
00:07:25.80\00:07:28.18
Derrick Morris is an
individual who has been
00:07:28.19\00:07:31.85
a leader in bringing this
00:07:31.86\00:07:34.09
into the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
00:07:34.10\00:07:35.90
However tonight,
we're gonna let Derrick
00:07:35.91\00:07:38.02
tell his own story, but
I believe that you will see
00:07:38.03\00:07:41.92
if you listen to him
00:07:41.93\00:07:43.88
that he no longer
holds those believes.
00:07:43.89\00:07:47.07
And there have been
so many sincere people.
00:07:47.08\00:07:49.47
And I've known so many of them.
00:07:49.48\00:07:51.08
These are the people that spend
00:07:51.09\00:07:52.08
hours a day in prayer, folks.
00:07:52.09\00:07:54.33
And but they have followed
00:07:54.34\00:07:56.79
something without fully
checking out its history
00:07:56.80\00:08:01.06
and where it came from?
00:08:01.07\00:08:02.65
And they fell into
a pattern of prayer
00:08:02.66\00:08:05.67
that is not from the Lord
and is not from the Bible.
00:08:05.68\00:08:10.13
And so tonight, we've gather
together a group of people.
00:08:10.14\00:08:14.34
Dan Houghton
called me a few weeks ago,
00:08:14.35\00:08:16.54
they have published a book
00:08:16.55\00:08:18.14
that there will be
talking to you about.
00:08:18.15\00:08:20.08
And this book covers the
history of spiritual formation
00:08:20.09\00:08:25.58
and contemplative prayer.
00:08:25.59\00:08:27.89
And it's a very direct book.
00:08:27.90\00:08:29.77
It talks about those
that have been involved.
00:08:29.78\00:08:33.53
There have been
a number of books
00:08:33.54\00:08:34.54
that have been
written on the subjects.
00:08:34.55\00:08:36.53
Some of them have been fair
00:08:36.54\00:08:39.12
and some of them quite honestly
haven't been quite as fair.
00:08:39.13\00:08:42.39
They have
indited those who may be
00:08:42.40\00:08:44.38
should not have been indited
in this particular subject.
00:08:44.39\00:08:48.61
But I believe this
is the type of thing
00:08:48.62\00:08:51.56
that we want to
bring to you often.
00:08:51.57\00:08:53.32
This is what Night
Light is all about.
00:08:53.33\00:08:55.18
Night Light is a special program
00:08:55.19\00:08:57.30
we don't put it on every week,
00:08:57.31\00:08:59.02
but we try to
bring special issues
00:08:59.03\00:09:01.90
to you with this program
that may be facing the church.
00:09:01.91\00:09:06.04
And so we try to
have those that understand
00:09:06.05\00:09:09.89
some of these issues,
understand some of the problems
00:09:09.90\00:09:12.31
that we're facing
to come and to address
00:09:12.32\00:09:15.06
those particular situation.
00:09:15.07\00:09:16.49
And I think God has raised 3ABN
00:09:16.50\00:09:18.56
for such an ours as
from the very beginning.
00:09:18.57\00:09:21.15
We've always felt
that we ought to be
00:09:21.16\00:09:22.68
able to stand up
and tell the truth, yes.
00:09:22.69\00:09:25.07
Really that's
what it's all about.
00:09:25.08\00:09:26.21
The truth will set us free.
00:09:26.22\00:09:28.22
And the truth and
what are we have to go by.
00:09:28.23\00:09:30.33
How do we know what
is truth? By the Bible.
00:09:30.34\00:09:32.68
When we stick to the
principles of the Bible,
00:09:32.69\00:09:34.67
we let the Bible
tell us what truth.
00:09:34.68\00:09:36.32
Jesus, of
course is the he truth,
00:09:36.33\00:09:38.09
but how is the way to him.
00:09:38.10\00:09:39.76
And there are certain things
that we know lot of things
00:09:39.77\00:09:42.56
it says we see
through the glass darkly,
00:09:42.57\00:09:45.10
but soon or when Jesus come,
00:09:45.11\00:09:46.73
we'll see face-to-face.
00:09:46.74\00:09:48.03
But there are many
things that's not negotiable,
00:09:48.04\00:09:50.87
that's giving and
submitting our lives to Jesus.
00:09:50.88\00:09:54.58
The only way under heaven
00:09:54.59\00:09:55.97
that we can be
saved the Bible says.
00:09:55.98\00:09:57.81
I hear ministers now.
Another denominations,
00:09:57.82\00:10:00.36
I've seen them before saying,
00:10:00.37\00:10:02.02
"Well, you know, may
be there is others ways."
00:10:02.03\00:10:03.49
They are afraid
to offend people,
00:10:03.50\00:10:05.41
but while we
have the freedom to--
00:10:05.42\00:10:07.50
These folk can
say what they want.
00:10:07.51\00:10:09.28
They can go out and have
all of their gay right parties
00:10:09.29\00:10:11.62
and--and
celebrations and whatever.
00:10:11.63\00:10:13.76
And again God
loves and I do too.
00:10:13.77\00:10:16.54
I--I don't hate anybody love,
00:10:16.55\00:10:18.47
but God hates-- hates sin.
00:10:18.48\00:10:20.08
He loves to sinner.
00:10:20.09\00:10:21.33
So I think is these
people have a right to say
00:10:21.34\00:10:24.67
what they want as you
said freedom of speech.
00:10:24.68\00:10:26.89
That's right. And I
believe as Christians
00:10:26.90\00:10:28.41
not to condemn somebody,
00:10:28.42\00:10:30.14
but to just simply
put the truth out there
00:10:30.15\00:10:32.50
so people will know
to make their decisions
00:10:32.51\00:10:35.60
is this right or this wrong.
00:10:35.61\00:10:37.42
So when we lead
people to the Word of God,
00:10:37.43\00:10:39.46
somebody's always upset. Yeah.
00:10:39.47\00:10:41.27
But you know what? I
think that's okay, right?
00:10:41.28\00:10:42.93
I do too. You know the Bible--
00:10:42.94\00:10:44.27
Let people-- let people be upset
00:10:44.28\00:10:46.85
as you say one way to the other,
00:10:46.86\00:10:48.48
but let's do the best.
00:10:48.49\00:10:49.55
And we know how to
do to get the truth out
00:10:49.56\00:10:51.69
'cause we're
countable to God. Yes, we are.
00:10:51.70\00:10:53.72
With--with an
organization like 3ABN
00:10:53.73\00:10:55.35
that can reach the world.
00:10:55.36\00:10:56.60
Sometimes silence is
just not the right thing.
00:10:56.61\00:10:58.85
That's right. Well, you know,
00:10:58.86\00:10:59.85
the Bible says that
"Satan as a roaring lion
00:10:59.86\00:11:03.11
goeth about seeking
whom he may devour."
00:11:03.12\00:11:05.91
And so we no that
we've got to watch
00:11:05.92\00:11:09.10
and be very careful for
there will be great deceptions
00:11:09.11\00:11:12.97
in these last
days. Well, right now,
00:11:12.98\00:11:15.01
I think they're ready on
the stage at this time, Danny.
00:11:15.02\00:11:17.33
And so Pastor C.A.
Murray is going to be
00:11:17.34\00:11:20.59
the moderator
for this discussion.
00:11:20.60\00:11:22.70
And we will join Pastor Murray
at this time with "Night Light."
00:11:22.71\00:11:26.35
Hello, and
welcome to "Night Light."
00:11:29.90\00:11:32.21
We are gathered here
tonight to dare I say,
00:11:32.71\00:11:35.35
demystify, demythologize,
pull the cover off of something
00:11:35.36\00:11:40.90
that many of us see as a clear
00:11:40.91\00:11:42.55
and present
danger to Christianity
00:11:42.56\00:11:45.04
in General and the Seventh-day
Adventist Church in particular.
00:11:45.05\00:11:48.59
The very fact that we
have this constellation
00:11:48.60\00:11:51.82
of gentleman here before me.
00:11:51.83\00:11:54.19
Some are clergy
others are concern laypersons
00:11:54.20\00:11:57.79
gives voice to the fact that
we care much about the church
00:11:57.80\00:12:01.33
that we love. We care much
about the God of the church.
00:12:01.34\00:12:05.58
We have a passion and
a love for our church,
00:12:05.59\00:12:08.93
and a corresponding
distain for any ideology
00:12:08.94\00:12:11.74
that would seek to
tear down or destroy
00:12:11.75\00:12:14.11
what God has built
up through His church.
00:12:14.12\00:12:16.18
And so tonight we
seek to talk to you
00:12:16.19\00:12:18.83
about the things of God,
00:12:18.84\00:12:20.40
to talk to you
about those things
00:12:20.41\00:12:23.45
which are dare to our heart,
00:12:23.46\00:12:24.73
and dare to the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
00:12:24.74\00:12:26.33
You have heard the
terms, centering prayer.
00:12:26.34\00:12:28.95
Other kinds of
terms emerging church,
00:12:31.88\00:12:36.22
contemplative prayer.
We've heard these terms.
00:12:36.23\00:12:39.25
Some may have heard
them for the first times,
00:12:39.26\00:12:41.97
others you've heard
them many, many times.
00:12:41.98\00:12:44.19
You may be
wondering, what do they mean?
00:12:44.20\00:12:45.72
How do they impact the church?
00:12:45.73\00:12:47.12
What do they mean to us?
00:12:47.13\00:12:49.21
How should we
deal with these terms
00:12:49.22\00:12:52.04
and with these ideologies?
00:12:52.05\00:12:53.27
Well, we seek this night
to talk about those things
00:12:53.28\00:12:55.50
and try to set some
light on these terms.
00:12:55.51\00:12:59.31
And to familiarize
you with the dangers
00:12:59.32\00:13:02.31
that lies in
some of these terms.
00:13:02.32\00:13:04.91
To my right, Dan Jackson
00:13:04.92\00:13:07.07
is a president of the
North American Division.
00:13:07.08\00:13:09.80
Next to him is Frank Fournier,
who is the president of ASI.
00:13:09.81\00:13:13.97
Next to Frank is Mark Finley,
00:13:13.98\00:13:16.26
Special Assistant to the
General Conference President.
00:13:16.27\00:13:19.01
To my left, Derrick
Morris, who is the--
00:13:19.02\00:13:21.84
let's say Associate
Ministry of Director
00:13:21.85\00:13:23.73
for the General Conference
and Editor of Ministry Magazine.
00:13:23.74\00:13:27.11
Next to him, Harold Lance,
00:13:27.12\00:13:28.66
who is president
of ASI Mission Inc.,
00:13:28.67\00:13:31.39
and my friend, Dan Houghton
00:13:31.40\00:13:32.83
who is the president
of Hart research Center.
00:13:32.84\00:13:34.39
So we are here to talk
about the things of God.
00:13:34.40\00:13:36.77
And to inform you, to inspire,
to encourage you as together
00:13:36.78\00:13:41.49
we seek to walk this
road that leads to glory.
00:13:41.50\00:13:43.82
Before we launch out,
would you now bow your heads
00:13:43.83\00:13:46.42
with me in a word of prayer?
00:13:46.43\00:13:49.32
Father God, we commit
ourselves to You just now.
00:13:49.33\00:13:54.29
For You have said that
you would never leave us,
00:13:54.30\00:13:56.96
nor for sake us.
You've given us that promise.
00:13:56.97\00:14:01.44
You've also said
that when we bow our knee
00:14:01.45\00:14:04.68
and lift up our
hearts that there
00:14:04.69\00:14:06.92
is a God in heaven who answer.
00:14:06.93\00:14:09.72
And so, Lord, now we
submit ourselves to You.
00:14:09.73\00:14:12.37
Be now the center
00:14:12.38\00:14:14.08
and circumference
of this discussion.
00:14:14.09\00:14:16.93
May Christ be glorified?
May truth be highlighted?
00:14:16.94\00:14:21.67
May error be
exposed, and may we together
00:14:21.68\00:14:25.84
take one more step along
that road that leads to glory.
00:14:25.85\00:14:30.87
We love You,
Lord, we praise You,
00:14:30.88\00:14:32.92
and we thank You
for Your promise to hear
00:14:32.93\00:14:35.85
and answer the
prayer of faith in Jesus'
00:14:35.86\00:14:38.95
name, amen and amen.
00:14:38.96\00:14:41.76
There is a text that
I should like to turn
00:14:41.77\00:14:43.42
you just before we start.
00:14:43.43\00:14:44.87
It's found in
the Book of Ezekiel.
00:14:44.88\00:14:46.50
You know it well. It
sort of gives justification
00:14:46.51\00:14:49.70
for our sitting here this night.
00:14:49.71\00:14:51.65
I mean, Ezekiel Chapter
33, just two verses 6 and 7.
00:14:51.66\00:14:57.83
"I'm sure you know it
well. Ezekiel 33 verses 6 and 7.
00:14:57.84\00:15:03.24
The Lord of God says--
00:15:03.25\00:15:04.24
I'm reading from
the New King James,
00:15:04.25\00:15:05.59
" But if the
watchman sees the sword
00:15:05.60\00:15:08.35
coming and does
not blow the trumpet
00:15:08.36\00:15:11.58
and the people are not
warned, and the sword comes
00:15:11.59\00:15:15.23
and takes any
person from among them,
00:15:15.24\00:15:18.23
he is taken
away in his iniquity,
00:15:18.24\00:15:20.57
but his blood I will
require at the watchman's hand.
00:15:20.58\00:15:25.34
"So you, Son of
man," I'm in verse 7.
00:15:25.35\00:15:28.14
"I have made you a watchman
for the House of Israel.
00:15:28.15\00:15:32.30
Therefore you shall heal
a-- hear a word from My mouth,
00:15:32.31\00:15:36.32
and warned them for me."
00:15:36.33\00:15:39.34
That ladies and
gentlemen is why we are here.
00:15:39.35\00:15:41.53
When we see a
danger to the House of God,
00:15:41.54\00:15:43.79
to the people of
God, to the church of God,
00:15:43.80\00:15:46.81
men of good will, praying men,
00:15:46.82\00:15:49.71
Bible reading,
and Bible studying
00:15:49.72\00:15:51.66
men and women have to lift up
00:15:51.67\00:15:53.94
their voice and
speak for the Lord.
00:15:53.95\00:15:57.08
That again is why we're here.
00:15:57.09\00:15:58.70
I want to go to
you-- Dan, I think first.
00:15:58.71\00:16:04.87
And let me say this
because we've got a--
00:16:04.88\00:16:07.15
we've got a bunch of
preachers and former preachers
00:16:07.16\00:16:09.78
and preachers who just preached.
00:16:09.79\00:16:12.36
If you hear something
sudden you want to way in on it.
00:16:12.37\00:16:15.24
And that may happen
several times during the night.
00:16:15.25\00:16:17.48
I ask you just to
go through the chairs
00:16:17.49\00:16:19.09
so that we can kind of
just triarch who is speaking,
00:16:19.10\00:16:21.44
so one person
doesn't step on another,
00:16:21.45\00:16:23.01
if we will do that. I
think and those are really
00:16:23.02\00:16:24.90
the only rules we have,
the more you talk the less
00:16:24.91\00:16:27.34
I have to and--and you
have much more to say than I.
00:16:27.35\00:16:29.35
But, Dan, I want you
to talk a little bit about
00:16:29.36\00:16:32.22
'cause we want to dealing,
we want to deal with the--
00:16:32.23\00:16:34.40
the energy that is
driving some of this
00:16:34.41\00:16:36.65
and our desire as a
church to get the truth out.
00:16:36.66\00:16:40.47
I want you to talk a little
bit about what ASI and Hart
00:16:40.48\00:16:43.21
have done together
as far as sending out
00:16:43.22\00:16:45.82
material and information
that has gone across the field.
00:16:45.83\00:16:48.96
And then, Derrick,
I want to come to you
00:16:48.97\00:16:49.96
and talk a little
bit about ministry
00:16:49.97\00:16:51.01
and what ministry is doing?
00:16:51.02\00:16:52.53
Thank you, C. A. As
far as Hart Research Center
00:16:52.54\00:16:56.80
in my personal involvement,
00:16:56.81\00:16:59.59
this came upon a
radar screen with me
00:16:59.60\00:17:01.62
about seven
years ago. Tom Mostert,
00:17:01.63\00:17:04.11
who is a retired president
of the Pacific Union Conference,
00:17:04.12\00:17:07.46
wrote a book. Actually started
out as a paper that was called,
00:17:07.47\00:17:10.74
"Is spiritualism entering the
Seventh-day Adventist Church?"
00:17:10.75\00:17:13.81
That was ultimately published
00:17:13.82\00:17:15.59
by Pacific Press as a
book called, "Hidden Heresy."
00:17:15.60\00:17:19.57
After I looked at
that, you know, few years
00:17:19.58\00:17:21.67
went by a kind of
fell off the radar screen,
00:17:21.68\00:17:23.92
about a year-and-a-half it
came back up on my radar screen.
00:17:23.93\00:17:26.26
And I didn't have any idea
00:17:26.27\00:17:27.70
we were gonna go down this road.
00:17:27.71\00:17:30.11
But all of sudden is
like the artic--the text you
00:17:30.12\00:17:33.29
read out of Ezekiel, C.A.,
00:17:33.30\00:17:34.95
it's like you're a
watchman on the walls
00:17:34.96\00:17:36.49
and you sense that
there is something.
00:17:36.50\00:17:38.37
And I began to say,
00:17:38.38\00:17:40.94
"Well, I've got
to respond to this."
00:17:40.95\00:17:42.45
And as I began to do that,
00:17:42.46\00:17:44.20
it was like the
Lord opened doors
00:17:44.21\00:17:46.42
and there was
first 50 watt light bulb
00:17:46.43\00:17:48.11
and then there was
500 watt light bulb,
00:17:48.12\00:17:49.96
and then there was
5,000 watt light bulb,
00:17:49.97\00:17:52.74
and 50,000 watt light bulb,
00:17:52.75\00:17:54.17
tonight there is a
500,000 watt light bulb
00:17:54.18\00:17:56.25
and may be the stadium
lights are on across the nation
00:17:56.26\00:17:59.25
but the Lord has
opened those doors.
00:17:59.26\00:18:01.64
And it wasn't
something we intended to do,
00:18:01.65\00:18:03.11
but He has opened those.
00:18:03.12\00:18:05.01
And I'll let Harold
speak to how ASI has been
00:18:05.02\00:18:08.73
getting into that because
it's really important for Harold
00:18:08.74\00:18:11.30
to be able to speak to that.
00:18:11.31\00:18:12.60
He is the one that
actually got ASI involved
00:18:12.61\00:18:15.41
than an ASI Mission's Inc.
00:18:15.42\00:18:17.31
We just happened to
have the material closed by.
00:18:17.32\00:18:19.47
And of course, you
know the book is published
00:18:19.48\00:18:21.27
by Pacific Press and
Hart Research Center.
00:18:21.28\00:18:25.35
ASI has historically had
a keen sense of the mission
00:18:25.36\00:18:31.68
and purpose of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:18:31.69\00:18:33.74
in its prophetic position.
00:18:33.75\00:18:35.58
And had a sense of--
of a deep felt belief
00:18:35.59\00:18:42.29
and support for the ministry
00:18:42.30\00:18:45.32
of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:18:45.33\00:18:46.82
and the messages of Ellen White
00:18:46.83\00:18:49.29
and the prophetic
specialness that the church has.
00:18:49.30\00:18:54.19
And some years ago,
four or five perhaps
00:18:54.20\00:18:58.53
may be six or seven, we
became aware of the issues
00:18:58.54\00:19:01.94
of the emerging church
in a contemplative prayer
00:19:01.95\00:19:04.33
and all of those issues.
00:19:04.34\00:19:05.74
And we have been
looking for some vehicle
00:19:05.75\00:19:09.99
to bring this issue
to the attention of the--
00:19:10.00\00:19:14.61
of the church body and
Christianity generally.
00:19:14.62\00:19:17.28
And it was not until
probably six months or so ago.
00:19:17.29\00:19:22.64
We had a missionary
friend from the far East,
00:19:22.65\00:19:27.07
Seventh-day Adventist Missionary
00:19:27.08\00:19:29.26
who wrote paper perhaps
10 or 15 pages on this topic
00:19:29.27\00:19:34.17
that express his own personal
00:19:34.18\00:19:36.19
lock of having
been out in the world
00:19:36.20\00:19:40.20
and coming back
and seen some things
00:19:40.21\00:19:42.22
from his former friends
00:19:42.23\00:19:44.19
at one of our
Seventh-day Adventist Colleges
00:19:44.20\00:19:46.57
that were really
disturbing to him.
00:19:46.58\00:19:48.54
He wrote a very
challenging paper
00:19:48.55\00:19:50.84
that that some of
us got and circulated
00:19:50.85\00:19:54.11
among the ASI leadership.
00:19:54.12\00:19:56.22
And it hid a-- it
hid a real importance
00:19:56.23\00:20:01.34
spark with them too and
it was out of that paper.
00:20:01.35\00:20:05.50
That let us to have a
dialogue with Dan Houghton
00:20:05.51\00:20:09.28
about the upcoming
release of the Peth book.
00:20:09.29\00:20:12.51
It was not yet out, the
dangers of contemplative prayer.
00:20:12.52\00:20:16.53
And so from--
00:20:16.54\00:20:18.27
from that impetus in
December of last year,
00:20:18.28\00:20:24.39
the book came out and we said--
00:20:24.40\00:20:27.47
I read it
personally and advance copy
00:20:27.48\00:20:30.01
and I send it to the
past presidents of ASI.
00:20:30.02\00:20:33.38
And said, "Would
you read this book?
00:20:33.39\00:20:36.14
And tell us what
you think about it?"
00:20:36.15\00:20:38.14
Whether or not
would be appropriate
00:20:38.15\00:20:39.58
for ASI to become involved in it
00:20:39.59\00:20:41.62
and all of the
past presidents of ASI
00:20:41.63\00:20:44.63
read the book
were challenged by it,
00:20:44.64\00:20:46.73
I thought that was a powerful,
00:20:46.74\00:20:49.08
fair description of the problem
00:20:49.09\00:20:51.71
and the-- it was a good warning.
00:20:51.72\00:20:54.30
And so we brought the matter
00:20:54.31\00:20:56.06
to the ASI and
ASI Mission's Inc.
00:20:56.07\00:20:59.34
boards and our
meetings in February,
00:20:59.35\00:21:01.87
and got authorization
to distribute the book
00:21:01.88\00:21:06.81
on a rather wide scale.
00:21:06.82\00:21:08.67
And so that's
really how it got started.
00:21:08.68\00:21:12.03
And, C.A., I would
just add to that that over,
00:21:12.04\00:21:14.72
you know, any good
idea picks up steam,
00:21:14.73\00:21:17.52
you know, as it goes along.
00:21:17.53\00:21:18.97
I learned that Derrick and
the ministerial team was going
00:21:18.98\00:21:22.57
to be dealing with this issue
00:21:22.58\00:21:23.69
in an upcoming
Ministry Magazine.
00:21:23.70\00:21:25.86
And that's when we
began connect and say,
00:21:25.87\00:21:27.98
"Would there be any possibility
00:21:27.99\00:21:29.69
that this could be a
joint church lay initiative
00:21:29.70\00:21:32.89
instead of just ASI
sending out a book."
00:21:32.90\00:21:35.13
What if we--
we're able to access
00:21:35.14\00:21:37.39
copies of that
ministry magazine.
00:21:37.40\00:21:38.72
And so that's how this mailing
came out which I hold that up.
00:21:38.73\00:21:42.99
This is the actually
mailing that went out
00:21:43.00\00:21:45.48
just in the last
week -and-a-half.
00:21:45.49\00:21:47.35
Many our leaders
and ASI members like,
00:21:47.36\00:21:50.39
you know, about
19,000 copies have gone out
00:21:50.40\00:21:52.78
across North America
in the last two weeks.
00:21:52.79\00:21:55.21
The idea being to
shine a light on it
00:21:55.22\00:21:57.33
and let people be
able to look at it and say,
00:21:57.34\00:22:00.63
"Hey,I need to see
00:22:00.64\00:22:01.90
if there's something
new I need to check out."
00:22:01.91\00:22:04.55
So you have really put
your money where your mouth is.
00:22:04.56\00:22:06.26
You--you felt
that this was important
00:22:06.27\00:22:07.66
enough to send out
19,000 copies around the fields
00:22:07.67\00:22:10.89
so that men of
learning and teaching would--
00:22:10.90\00:22:13.56
would have this
information? Absolutely.
00:22:13.57\00:22:15.19
Yeah. Derrick, you are
Editor of Ministry Magazine,
00:22:15.20\00:22:18.09
you devoted
almost an entire magazine
00:22:18.10\00:22:21.36
to this core subject
and satellite subjects.
00:22:21.37\00:22:24.23
What drove you?
What was the process
00:22:24.27\00:22:26.26
by which you came involved
in this--in this venture?
00:22:26.27\00:22:28.65
Thank you, C.A., I'm so
happy to be here tonight.
00:22:28.80\00:22:31.65
I think that this meeting
00:22:32.20\00:22:33.59
and this whole
initiative is directed by God.
00:22:33.60\00:22:36.61
And perhaps, I have
a unique perspective
00:22:37.19\00:22:40.99
in that 27 years ago,
00:22:41.00\00:22:44.99
I went down a path that later
I found out was not Biblically
00:22:45.00\00:22:50.59
base in terms of spirituality.
00:22:50.60\00:22:52.55
May be we'll get a
chance to talk about that.
00:22:52.56\00:22:54.41
And in fact to me the text
that God has been leading me
00:22:54.42\00:22:59.23
back to over and over
again is in First Thessalonians
00:22:59.24\00:23:02.94
5:21, it says,
"Examine everything carefully,
00:23:02.95\00:23:09.19
hold fast what is good." Amen.
00:23:09.20\00:23:10.98
So we certainly are
not oppose to prayer here,
00:23:11.68\00:23:14.90
we're not oppose to meditation
if it's based in scripture.
00:23:14.91\00:23:19.81
We certainly not
oppose to spirituality,
00:23:19.82\00:23:23.03
but unfortunately
what's happening, C.A.,
00:23:23.04\00:23:25.62
is that the term
spirituality in the 21st Century
00:23:25.63\00:23:30.26
doesn't mean
what it used to mean.
00:23:30.27\00:23:32.45
It's been detached
from the scriptures by many.
00:23:32.46\00:23:36.66
It's even been
detached from God.
00:23:36.67\00:23:39.73
And become very self-centered,
00:23:39.74\00:23:42.50
very
self-serving, very subjective.
00:23:42.51\00:23:45.85
So the special issue of ministry
00:23:45.86\00:23:48.30
which I hold in my hand.
00:23:48.31\00:23:50.29
And by the way this
is available for those
00:23:50.30\00:23:53.02
who are at the ASI Meeting
00:23:53.03\00:23:54.86
at the
Ministerial Association Booth.
00:23:54.87\00:23:56.84
But I am happy to say
it's also online, ministry--
00:23:56.85\00:24:02.20
at the ministry magazine.org
00:24:02.21\00:24:03.94
website, ministry magazine.org.
00:24:03.95\00:24:06.84
That's
available in 52 languages.
00:24:06.85\00:24:09.24
So we are serious about
this message getting out.
00:24:09.25\00:24:13.40
Pastor Mark Finley
wrote the lead article.
00:24:13.41\00:24:16.26
I wrote the editorial,
which heard some of my story
00:24:16.27\00:24:19.66
of saying there may be some
people who has seeking revival
00:24:19.67\00:24:23.61
and reformation, but
might go down the wrong path.
00:24:23.62\00:24:28.16
That's what
happened to me 27 years ago.
00:24:28.17\00:24:31.14
And I know the dangers.
00:24:31.15\00:24:33.51
And I'm thankful
that we can talk candidly,
00:24:33.52\00:24:36.26
but also in a-- in a
constructive positive way.
00:24:36.27\00:24:41.03
That can encourage man and woman
00:24:41.04\00:24:42.62
who are seeking a
closer walk with God
00:24:42.63\00:24:45.14
to realize that
the Bible must be
00:24:45.15\00:24:48.46
the foundation of our
spiritual life. People say,
00:24:48.47\00:24:51.21
"Well, I don't need the
Bible, I just need Jesus."
00:24:51.22\00:24:54.22
C.A., we don't even know
about Jesus without the Bible.
00:24:54.23\00:24:57.70
So whatever
Jesus you're seeking,
00:24:57.71\00:24:59.31
if that Jesus is
not based in scripture.
00:24:59.34\00:25:03.38
May be new age psychic has a
spirit guide, they call Jesus.
00:25:03.39\00:25:07.81
But unless we
tested by the Word of God,
00:25:07.82\00:25:10.48
we'll be let
astray. So I come back again
00:25:10.49\00:25:13.45
as the New King James
says, "Test all things
00:25:13.46\00:25:16.61
and hold fast what is good."
00:25:16.62\00:25:19.18
Thank you, Derrick, very much.
00:25:19.19\00:25:20.75
Mark, I wanna swing to you
00:25:20.76\00:25:22.47
because you wrote
one of the lead articles
00:25:22.48\00:25:24.90
in that magazine long, lengthy,
00:25:24.91\00:25:26.87
well-written article
read it a number of times.
00:25:26.88\00:25:29.50
Tell me, what drove
you to write that article
00:25:29.51\00:25:31.82
and what you are trying to say?
00:25:31.83\00:25:33.84
Oh, in the article in ministry,
00:25:33.85\00:25:35.95
my concern was
not only to point out
00:25:35.96\00:25:38.98
the dangers of the false, but
to reveal what the genuine is.
00:25:38.99\00:25:44.06
When you actually
look at it, many churches,
00:25:44.07\00:25:49.27
both Seventh-day
Adventist and Christian Churches
00:25:49.28\00:25:51.93
are locked in formalism.
00:25:51.94\00:25:54.87
They're locked in IC
code rigid traditionalism.
00:25:54.88\00:26:00.84
Where there the warmth
that the spirit is gone.
00:26:02.22\00:26:04.79
So on the one hand you
have this IC code formalism,
00:26:04.80\00:26:07.87
ritualism. On the other hand,
00:26:07.88\00:26:10.76
there may be a
reaction to that a seeking
00:26:10.77\00:26:14.50
for experience and
experiential form of religion
00:26:14.51\00:26:18.71
which leads people to
trust their experience
00:26:18.72\00:26:21.84
rather than the word.
00:26:21.85\00:26:23.96
The Bible says
that in the last days
00:26:23.97\00:26:25.64
of earth's history, every wind
of dark turn will be blowing.
00:26:25.65\00:26:30.22
So whether it's the
IC wind of formalism
00:26:30.26\00:26:33.34
or whether it's the
fiery breeze of fanaticism,
00:26:33.35\00:26:36.90
the devil doesn't
care whether he get you
00:26:36.91\00:26:38.61
to go on the left or the right.
So the article was an attempt
00:26:38.62\00:26:42.32
to reveal what is
genuine spirituality.
00:26:42.33\00:26:45.68
What does it mean to have a
genuine experience with God,
00:26:45.69\00:26:50.89
and how do you
develop that experience,
00:26:50.90\00:26:54.29
through prayer,
through Bible study?
00:26:54.30\00:26:56.43
And then on the other
side of that question,
00:26:56.44\00:26:59.30
what are some of the dangerous
00:26:59.31\00:27:01.11
and signs of
counterfeit spirituality?
00:27:01.12\00:27:03.51
And you know in
John the 17 Chapter,
00:27:03.52\00:27:06.88
Jesus was about ready
to go back to the Father.
00:27:06.89\00:27:10.81
And here in John 17
verse 1 through 3 Jesus spoke
00:27:10.82\00:27:16.65
these words and He lifted
up His eyes to heaven and said,
00:27:16.66\00:27:19.60
"Father the hour has
come." The hour is death.
00:27:19.61\00:27:23.39
The hour of His
leaving this planet.
00:27:23.40\00:27:27.44
The hour of the
cross. And He says,
00:27:27.45\00:27:29.72
"Glorify your Son, that
your Son may also glorify you."
00:27:29.73\00:27:33.78
Verse 2, "As you have given
Him authority over all flesh,
00:27:33.79\00:27:37.68
that He should give eternal life
00:27:37.69\00:27:39.07
to as many as
you have given Him."
00:27:39.08\00:27:41.02
Verse 3, "This is life eternal,
00:27:41.60\00:27:44.44
that they may know
You, the only true God,
00:27:44.45\00:27:46.62
and Jesus Christ
whom You've sent."
00:27:46.63\00:27:48.37
Jesus says that life
eternal is knowing God,
00:27:48.82\00:27:52.03
having an intimate
relationship with Jesus Christ.
00:27:52.49\00:27:55.78
And so the
question that the article
00:27:56.30\00:27:58.51
wanted to address
was, how do you have
00:27:58.52\00:28:01.31
an intimate
relationship with Jesus?
00:28:01.32\00:28:02.93
How can Jesus live in your life?
00:28:03.45\00:28:05.64
What is a genuine
Christian experience,
00:28:06.17\00:28:08.96
and what are the
dangers of a counterfeit
00:28:08.97\00:28:11.71
Christian
experience? And how can you
00:28:11.72\00:28:13.59
tell the
difference between the two?
00:28:13.60\00:28:15.03
Well done. Gentlemen,
00:28:15.17\00:28:16.40
let's--let's mind
that just a little bit.
00:28:16.41\00:28:18.21
In a few moments I want to begin
00:28:18.22\00:28:20.13
the define some terms
so that we're all talking
00:28:20.14\00:28:22.17
the same language,
but I want to just open
00:28:22.18\00:28:25.73
it up for your thought on this.
00:28:25.74\00:28:28.26
There was more
council in-- in Ellen White's
00:28:28.27\00:28:30.63
writings on
formalism and coldness,
00:28:30.64\00:28:32.89
and is on the access of--
00:28:32.90\00:28:34.68
of moving to the
left, dare I say.
00:28:34.69\00:28:36.67
You've got more
council against formal,
00:28:36.68\00:28:38.88
rigid, dogmatic,
lifeless, Christless Church.
00:28:38.89\00:28:44.47
But suppose someone
is in a spiritual rap.
00:28:44.48\00:28:47.91
They are victim of
their own spiritual inertia.
00:28:47.92\00:28:50.06
And they want to get
back to a close working,
00:28:50.07\00:28:55.21
vibrant, passionate
relationship with God.
00:28:55.22\00:28:58.09
They just don't know have it.
00:28:58.10\00:28:59.91
How does one get
out of that malaise?
00:28:59.92\00:29:04.01
How does one trump that that,
00:29:04.02\00:29:07.12
that jogging along when
they want be a spiritual runner.
00:29:07.13\00:29:10.17
How do you do that?
And is it--is it wrong
00:29:10.18\00:29:12.30
to find some
little aids to help you
00:29:12.31\00:29:14.68
in that question. Derrick?
00:29:14.69\00:29:17.54
Well, I--I want to
come back to something
00:29:17.55\00:29:19.42
that Mark said and
something I said earlier.
00:29:19.43\00:29:22.04
One of the-- one
of the initiatives
00:29:22.05\00:29:23.71
that we're working
right now is called
00:29:23.72\00:29:25.47
revived by his word
which is encouraging.
00:29:25.48\00:29:28.18
In fact, Pastor Mark
Finley was instrumental
00:29:28.19\00:29:30.88
and putting to that initiative,
visioning that initiative.
00:29:30.89\00:29:34.23
Reading the Bible each day,
listening to the word of God,
00:29:34.24\00:29:38.88
I just
interviewed a former pagan
00:29:38.89\00:29:41.78
idol worshipper from Madagascar.
00:29:41.79\00:29:44.83
You say, "Is he still
a pagan idol worshipper."
00:29:44.84\00:29:47.74
No, he is a
devoted follower of Jesus.
00:29:47.75\00:29:50.34
He is willing to lay
down his life for Jesus.
00:29:50.35\00:29:53.69
How did he come to know Jesus?
It was to reading the Bible,
00:29:53.70\00:29:58.21
not through just imagining Jesus
00:29:58.22\00:30:00.60
in a field of
flower or somewhere.
00:30:00.61\00:30:02.55
And I say that,
not flippantly because
00:30:02.56\00:30:04.74
when I was going down
the wrong path 27 years ago,
00:30:04.75\00:30:08.59
one of the things we
were encourage to do was,
00:30:08.60\00:30:12.74
well just imagine Jesus coming
to you in a field of flowers
00:30:12.75\00:30:15.87
and listen to what He says?
00:30:15.88\00:30:17.47
C.A., how do you
know that's Jesus?
00:30:17.48\00:30:20.42
Unless it's tested by the word.
00:30:20.43\00:30:23.03
This formal idol worshipper
00:30:23.04\00:30:24.71
was reading the
Gospel of Matthew.
00:30:24.72\00:30:26.94
When he got to Matthew
26, 27, 28 we're talking
00:30:26.95\00:30:30.47
about reading
the Bible everyday.
00:30:30.48\00:30:33.09
As he was reading the Bible,
00:30:33.10\00:30:35.28
the spirit of God
touched his heart.
00:30:35.29\00:30:38.75
He said, "I love this
man." Speaking about Jesus.
00:30:38.76\00:30:43.90
I am drawn to this man and
the love that he showing me.
00:30:43.91\00:30:47.29
Now, the way that
he received the truth
00:30:47.30\00:30:50.89
about Jesus was
through the Bible. Uh-huh.
00:30:50.90\00:30:54.20
So I--I want to say one
thing very clearly tonight to--
00:30:54.21\00:30:57.73
to each person this joining
us. If you're seeking that life
00:30:57.74\00:31:01.74
changing relationship with God,
00:31:01.75\00:31:03.69
it will not happen
apart from the Bible.
00:31:03.70\00:31:07.60
Yes, we can experience peace
00:31:07.61\00:31:10.38
and joy and
intimacy to know him,
00:31:10.39\00:31:13.17
but to try to find
that path without the Bible
00:31:13.18\00:31:17.33
will lead us
down a dangerous road.
00:31:17.34\00:31:22.64
You know, C.A., in
Second Peter Chapter 1,
00:31:22.65\00:31:26.75
really to confirm
what Derrick has said.
00:31:26.76\00:31:29.59
It's says--it's talking
about the promises of God.
00:31:29.60\00:31:32.08
And it says, "By which
have been given to us exceeding,
00:31:32.09\00:31:34.79
great, and precious
promises." I got that.
00:31:34.80\00:31:37.37
The promises of God
00:31:37.38\00:31:38.50
are exceeding
great and the precious."
00:31:38.51\00:31:41.41
That through these you may be
partakers of the divine nature
00:31:41.42\00:31:44.85
having escape the corruption
00:31:44.86\00:31:46.21
that's in the
world through lust."
00:31:46.22\00:31:48.02
As we read God's
word prayerfully,
00:31:48.03\00:31:50.15
the same Holy
Spirit that inspired
00:31:50.16\00:31:52.35
the Bible transforms our lives.
00:31:52.36\00:31:54.51
Just today I was talking
to a ministerial colleague
00:31:54.52\00:31:57.89
who told me the story.
00:31:57.90\00:31:59.79
We were talking
about revived by His word.
00:31:59.80\00:32:02.25
Thousands of Seventh-day
Adventist on a journey together
00:32:02.26\00:32:07.02
all around the world in
reading the Word of God.
00:32:07.03\00:32:10.09
There is a young man
in an Adventist Christian
00:32:10.10\00:32:11.88
College who went to
college totally overwhelmed
00:32:11.89\00:32:15.05
by the academics of college
00:32:15.06\00:32:17.60
and really was
kind of on the margins
00:32:17.61\00:32:20.17
of the Adventist
Church had a very a lukewarm,
00:32:20.18\00:32:23.38
very complacent
spiritual experience.
00:32:23.39\00:32:25.78
He began daily
joining with those of us
00:32:25.79\00:32:29.05
who are reading the
Bible everyday prayerfully,
00:32:29.06\00:32:32.50
praying over its passages,
00:32:32.51\00:32:35.04
and the Holy Spirit
just transformed his life.
00:32:35.05\00:32:38.08
And now he testifies
of the intimate experience
00:32:38.09\00:32:42.13
he has with
Jesus. I love personally
00:32:42.14\00:32:46.32
to combine
prayer and Bible study.
00:32:46.33\00:32:48.61
So I read a few
passages of scripture.
00:32:48.62\00:32:51.19
Pray over what I've just read.
00:32:51.20\00:32:53.25
Read a few more
passages, pray over it.
00:32:53.26\00:32:55.70
Because as you read the Bible
00:32:55.71\00:32:57.56
God is speaking to
you through His word,
00:32:57.57\00:33:00.58
so one cannot
divorce a vital Christian
00:33:00.59\00:33:05.05
experience from the Word of God
00:33:05.06\00:33:08.21
and as you read the Bible
and pray over what you've read.
00:33:08.22\00:33:11.62
In prayer we talk back
to God through His word.
00:33:11.63\00:33:14.78
He talks back to us.
00:33:14.79\00:33:16.29
And the Holy Spirit takes
the word transforms our lives.
00:33:16.30\00:33:21.13
Amen. Dan?
00:33:21.14\00:33:23.11
You know, I-- I
believe that in--
00:33:23.12\00:33:27.23
in what I'm hearing,
Mark and Derrick say,
00:33:27.24\00:33:32.45
that we--we need to root
our-- our spiritual experience
00:33:32.46\00:33:36.86
in the Word of God. But
there is another dimension.
00:33:36.87\00:33:41.20
And I believe that
dimension Ellen White
00:33:41.21\00:33:42.92
some said at very
nicely when she says,
00:33:42.93\00:33:45.77
"We must live for
Christ moment by moment,
00:33:45.78\00:33:49.18
hour by hour, day by
day." And then she says,
00:33:49.19\00:33:53.44
"Our spiritual
life will take off."
00:33:53.45\00:33:55.76
So we take the
authority of God's word
00:33:55.77\00:33:59.01
and we apply it to our life
and turn up practical living
00:33:59.02\00:34:02.95
and we begin to
grow up into Jesus.
00:34:02.96\00:34:06.09
So it is. God does speak to us.
00:34:06.10\00:34:09.09
I'm looking at this
passage in First Corinthians
00:34:09.10\00:34:12.09
Chapter 2 verse 9, where
Paul says to the Corinthians
00:34:12.10\00:34:15.98
however as it is
written, "What no eye has seen,
00:34:15.99\00:34:19.63
what no ear has heard, and what
no human mind has conceived,
00:34:19.64\00:34:24.14
the things God has prepared
for those who love him."
00:34:24.15\00:34:27.52
And Paul, even though we
apply this text to heaven.
00:34:27.53\00:34:31.17
That no eye has seen. And
heaven will be spectacular.
00:34:31.18\00:34:33.97
The context of
that passage is that
00:34:33.98\00:34:36.92
when we get in
contact with the Word of God,
00:34:36.93\00:34:39.94
God reveals to us the things
00:34:39.95\00:34:42.30
about Himself
through the spirit.
00:34:42.31\00:34:44.50
So this is a
very exciting thing.
00:34:44.51\00:34:46.76
And the Word of God then
becomes the living Word of God.
00:34:46.77\00:34:52.42
Amen. Amen.
00:34:52.43\00:34:53.40
C.A.? Yes.
00:34:53.41\00:34:54.75
What's being shared here
obviously, is this thing on?
00:34:54.76\00:34:58.44
Oh yeah.Yeah, what's
being shared here is--
00:34:58.45\00:35:00.76
is obviously how we
can have a true experience,
00:35:00.77\00:35:03.92
but this isn't
what is being offered
00:35:03.93\00:35:06.92
to Seventh-day Adventist
00:35:06.93\00:35:08.31
and to other
Christians in the world.
00:35:08.32\00:35:09.65
They're being offered
00:35:09.66\00:35:11.79
and experience of
direct connection with God.
00:35:11.80\00:35:14.96
And you have to
put yourself into the--
00:35:14.97\00:35:16.02
in the minds of these
other-- of these people.
00:35:16.03\00:35:19.56
Who can think in terms of being
directly connected with God?
00:35:19.57\00:35:22.32
How would you like
to have a an experience
00:35:22.33\00:35:25.42
like that with God where through
a means of self-hypnosis,
00:35:25.43\00:35:27.44
you can find the reach the spot
00:35:27.45\00:35:31.90
where God
speaks to you directly,
00:35:31.91\00:35:35.91
wouldn't you like to
have an experience like that?
00:35:35.92\00:35:38.20
I mean, it would
seem to be amazing.
00:35:38.21\00:35:40.27
But the problem with
that, and I really don't know
00:35:40.28\00:35:43.06
if I can explain it,
00:35:43.07\00:35:44.35
but it really
becomes righteousness
00:35:44.36\00:35:47.21
by experience rather
than righteousness by faith.
00:35:47.22\00:35:50.25
You don't need faith anymore.
00:35:50.26\00:35:52.28
If God can
communicate with you everyday
00:35:52.29\00:35:55.01
personally it's not
righteousness by faith,
00:35:55.02\00:35:59.04
it's
righteousness by experience.
00:35:59.05\00:36:00.63
And what we
have been saying here
00:36:00.64\00:36:02.61
is when we're
dealing with the Word of God
00:36:02.62\00:36:04.56
and we read, and we pray,
and we communicate with God
00:36:04.57\00:36:08.78
it's not direct, we
still need an element of faith.
00:36:08.79\00:36:12.27
And right there you can see that
00:36:12.28\00:36:13.66
there is something
wrong with that experience.
00:36:13.67\00:36:17.37
Dan? C.A., you
know, I have my iPhone
00:36:17.38\00:36:20.55
with my Bible on it here,
00:36:20.56\00:36:21.77
and I enjoy caring that,
so I always have it with me.
00:36:21.78\00:36:24.43
My Bible's always with me.
00:36:24.44\00:36:25.73
But I tell you one of the things
00:36:25.74\00:36:26.78
that is the most
valuable in my spiritual life
00:36:26.79\00:36:29.47
that keeps me
from the very thing
00:36:29.48\00:36:31.30
that Frank was
just talking about.
00:36:31.31\00:36:33.48
I love to read my Bible.
00:36:33.49\00:36:36.71
I enjoyed early in the morning,
00:36:36.72\00:36:39.22
late at night, in
the middle of the day,
00:36:39.23\00:36:40.77
and I am just finishing
marking my fourth Bible.
00:36:40.78\00:36:45.90
Red pencil, ruler, go through,
00:36:45.91\00:36:48.34
and mark it as I hear
the voice speaking to me,
00:36:48.35\00:36:51.03
I will finish in about two
weeks another round of that.
00:36:51.04\00:36:54.46
Then I'll be
looking to start over again.
00:36:54.47\00:36:55.65
I got to find
another Bible to do that.
00:36:55.66\00:36:57.34
And you know
what? There is something
00:36:57.35\00:36:58.69
about that for me
that just means everything.
00:36:58.70\00:37:01.81
Derrick? I appreciate what Dan
said about the spirit revealing.
00:37:04.09\00:37:09.15
It's says, "God is reveal
them to us through His spirit."
00:37:09.16\00:37:11.79
The text that you quoted.
00:37:11.80\00:37:13.43
And I think, I remember
a young lady said to me,
00:37:13.44\00:37:16.80
I don't need the Bible anymore
because I have the spirit.
00:37:16.81\00:37:21.73
But--but Jesus said, John 14,
00:37:21.74\00:37:25.70
"But the
Helper, the Holy Spirit,
00:37:25.71\00:37:28.48
whom the Father
will send in my name,
00:37:28.49\00:37:31.03
he will teach you all things."
00:37:31.04\00:37:32.65
But then it says, "And
bring to your remembrance." Yes.
00:37:32.66\00:37:37.16
"The things I've said to you."
00:37:37.17\00:37:38.74
So what Dan's talking about,
00:37:38.75\00:37:40.31
what the revived by his
word initiative is encouraging?
00:37:40.32\00:37:43.76
Is through a daily
reading of scripture,
00:37:43.77\00:37:47.30
we are safe guarded.
00:37:47.31\00:37:48.78
And now we're gonna talk
about definitions in a minute.
00:37:48.79\00:37:51.21
But for example, a person says,
00:37:51.22\00:37:52.60
"Well, this is prayer.
00:37:52.61\00:37:54.73
You just take this
mantra and like Jesus or
00:37:54.74\00:37:58.09
and you say it
over and over again."
00:37:58.10\00:38:00.12
If I have been saturating
my mind with Word of God,
00:38:00.13\00:38:03.72
the Holy Spirit will help
me to avoid that deception.
00:38:03.73\00:38:08.11
And because Jesus said,
00:38:08.12\00:38:09.36
why do not pray
with vain repetitions
00:38:09.37\00:38:12.87
as the heathen do right
there in Matthew Chapter 6.
00:38:12.88\00:38:17.16
So again the
spirit I believe in that
00:38:17.17\00:38:21.33
dynamic dimension
of the Christian life,
00:38:21.34\00:38:24.14
but the spirit always
points us back to the word.
00:38:24.15\00:38:28.36
He is the spirit of truth.
00:38:28.37\00:38:30.54
And so the foundation
has to be the scripture.
00:38:30.55\00:38:35.50
Yeah. C.A., let me jump
in here just for a second.
00:38:35.51\00:38:37.31
And come in what
Derrick has been saying,
00:38:37.32\00:38:39.11
you know, kind
of follow upon that.
00:38:39.12\00:38:41.14
When you
actually think about it,
00:38:41.15\00:38:42.87
how does the Holy
Spirit change your life?
00:38:42.88\00:38:45.69
How does the Holy
Spirit communicate to you?
00:38:45.70\00:38:48.01
Doesn't communicate with
your thumb or your big toe?
00:38:48.02\00:38:51.29
What does it mean
that we are created
00:38:51.30\00:38:52.79
in the Image of God?
00:38:52.80\00:38:54.57
The Bible says in
Romans 12 verse 1.
00:38:54.58\00:38:57.58
It says, "Be not
conformed to this world,
00:38:57.59\00:38:59.52
but be transformed by
the renewing of your mind."
00:38:59.53\00:39:03.46
So that which
enables us to be created
00:39:03.47\00:39:05.73
in the image of God
00:39:05.74\00:39:07.14
is the ability
to think to reason,
00:39:07.15\00:39:09.30
the fact that we have
cognitive reasoning abilities,
00:39:09.31\00:39:11.78
the fact that we can
know God through our mind.
00:39:11.79\00:39:15.75
So how then are we
transformed into His image?
00:39:15.76\00:39:18.92
As we read God's word,
00:39:18.93\00:39:20.73
the Holy Spirit takes
the principles of the word
00:39:20.74\00:39:23.93
and transforms
our thinking process,
00:39:23.94\00:39:27.08
so that we're
more or like Christ.
00:39:27.09\00:39:29.14
So the Holy Spirit
is constantly working
00:39:29.15\00:39:32.67
in our lives through the word,
00:39:32.68\00:39:36.08
He is constantly
working in our minds
00:39:36.09\00:39:38.43
to bring conviction,
to bring understanding,
00:39:38.44\00:39:41.33
to bring the depths,
00:39:41.34\00:39:42.33
so we can reveal
the lovely character
00:39:42.34\00:39:44.43
of Jesus in our lives.
00:39:44.44\00:39:46.99
What is that then say about true
00:39:47.00\00:39:49.64
and false Christian experience?
00:39:49.65\00:39:52.51
And true Christian experience,
00:39:52.52\00:39:54.63
the spirit works on the mind
00:39:54.64\00:39:57.62
to transforms
the thinking process.
00:39:57.63\00:40:00.37
"Let this mind be in you
00:40:00.38\00:40:01.76
that was in
Christ Jesus our Lord."
00:40:01.77\00:40:03.89
In false experience,
we are let to so called
00:40:03.90\00:40:08.69
that discover the
God within ourselves
00:40:08.70\00:40:12.66
and try to come to
a experience of peace
00:40:12.67\00:40:16.80
and oneness with God
00:40:16.81\00:40:19.71
in a mystical
experience within ourselves.
00:40:19.72\00:40:23.53
And so the difference
is between the Holy Spirit
00:40:23.54\00:40:26.82
transforming our
mind through the word
00:40:26.83\00:40:29.33
and an emotional
experience of so called peace.
00:40:29.34\00:40:34.03
There is a major
difference between the two.
00:40:34.04\00:40:36.76
Well said. You know,
I think we're saying.
00:40:36.77\00:40:39.69
I'm hearing you say that
there is a subjective reality
00:40:39.70\00:40:42.20
to all our Christian experiences
00:40:42.21\00:40:44.44
because we're all individuals,
00:40:44.45\00:40:46.06
but that subjective
reality must be held in check
00:40:46.07\00:40:49.33
to the objective
reality of the Word of God.
00:40:49.34\00:40:52.01
So whatever you're going through
00:40:52.02\00:40:53.82
has to be
subject and agree with,
00:40:53.83\00:40:56.64
and lined up with the
Word of God. Is that not so?
00:40:56.65\00:40:59.04
Amen. All right. Dan?
00:40:59.05\00:41:00.39
You know, I go back
to the scriptures again
00:41:00.40\00:41:02.75
to reaffirm what Mark is saying,
00:41:02.76\00:41:05.28
and to say that there
is that personal dimension.
00:41:05.29\00:41:07.94
However when
the spirit of God is
00:41:07.95\00:41:10.26
in our live when the
spirit is truly there,
00:41:10.27\00:41:13.58
it will always
lead us back to Christ
00:41:13.59\00:41:16.33
because Christ is the center
and the substance of our faith.
00:41:16.34\00:41:20.12
When Paul talk to the Ephesians,
00:41:20.13\00:41:21.60
He said that, "I pray
that out of his glorious riches
00:41:21.61\00:41:25.09
he may strengthen
you with his power
00:41:25.10\00:41:28.21
through his Spirit
in your inner being."
00:41:28.22\00:41:31.25
So he talks about
that, but then he says,
00:41:31.26\00:41:33.67
"So that Christ may dwell
in your hearts through faith,
00:41:33.68\00:41:37.32
and I pray that
you, being rooted
00:41:37.33\00:41:39.08
and established in love
00:41:39.09\00:41:40.74
may have power
together with the Lord's people,
00:41:40.75\00:41:43.41
all the Lord's
people to grasp, wide,
00:41:43.42\00:41:45.83
and long and deep
is the love of Christ,
00:41:45.84\00:41:48.83
and to know all about God."
00:41:48.84\00:41:50.14
That's what he goes on to say.
00:41:50.15\00:41:51.54
And the fact is,
00:41:51.55\00:41:52.59
and I think what Mark is
saying is absolutely correct.
00:41:52.60\00:41:55.33
That the true
guidance of the Holy Spirit
00:41:55.34\00:41:57.68
always directs us upward
00:41:57.69\00:42:00.16
to Christ to
the Heavenly Father,
00:42:00.17\00:42:02.48
so that we're not
looking within for answers,
00:42:02.49\00:42:05.36
we're looking
to Him for answers.
00:42:05.37\00:42:07.08
And that gets exciting
because God said--Paul says,
00:42:07.09\00:42:10.80
"You will find out
how broad and how wide,
00:42:10.81\00:42:14.42
and how deep the
love of Christ is
00:42:14.43\00:42:16.76
when you do that
kind of research."
00:42:16.77\00:42:18.84
You don't find it in our
self, you find it in Christ.
00:42:18.85\00:42:21.86
Praise the God. Dan?
00:42:21.87\00:42:24.57
I just wanted to follow up
00:42:24.58\00:42:25.60
on something
Frank said a moment ago.
00:42:25.61\00:42:28.06
Have you ever
been in a situation
00:42:28.07\00:42:29.32
where you wanted to
have divine guidance
00:42:29.33\00:42:32.05
and making a decision?
00:42:32.06\00:42:33.80
And you are just
seeking and saying,
00:42:33.81\00:42:35.44
"Lord, I just wish that
I had a Urim and Thummim."
00:42:35.45\00:42:39.44
You know, isn't that a
common thing to all humanity?
00:42:39.45\00:42:42.71
We would like to
know. Well, God please,
00:42:42.72\00:42:44.34
if You just tell me, I'll
do what You want me to do.
00:42:44.35\00:42:47.28
And I think that there
is a-- for whatever reason
00:42:47.29\00:42:50.09
God has chosen to
reveal Himself to His word
00:42:50.10\00:42:52.42
to us in this
generation, in this time.
00:42:52.43\00:42:55.54
But there is an--
there is an appeal to that.
00:42:55.55\00:42:57.83
And whenever there is
an offer in spirituality
00:42:57.84\00:43:02.69
that can lead
you that direction,
00:43:02.70\00:43:04.39
I can understand the appeal
of that to the human mind.
00:43:04.40\00:43:08.56
All right. The
truth of the matter is
00:43:10.58\00:43:14.77
as we begin to divine some terms
00:43:14.78\00:43:16.48
that the--the
lexicon of our lives changes.
00:43:16.49\00:43:19.41
Words atrophy,
sometimes meanings are hijacked,
00:43:19.42\00:43:23.56
things changes
over the course of time.
00:43:23.57\00:43:26.71
What was the good word?
00:43:26.72\00:43:27.84
In one error can
become a bad word
00:43:27.85\00:43:29.59
and another error what
was the sanctified word,
00:43:29.60\00:43:32.58
in one error can become a
curse word in another error.
00:43:32.59\00:43:34.84
So we need to define some terms.
00:43:34.85\00:43:37.31
And let's start at
the shallow into the pool
00:43:37.32\00:43:39.15
and let's look at
just spirituality.
00:43:39.16\00:43:41.25
Who wants to
take a shadow of that?
00:43:41.26\00:43:42.32
What does
spirituality mean? Derrick?
00:43:42.33\00:43:46.25
We used to assume
that spirituality meant
00:43:47.78\00:43:51.14
a relationship with God.
00:43:51.15\00:43:54.39
Most of us the generation
00:43:54.40\00:43:56.32
we grew up in
that's what it meant?
00:43:56.33\00:43:59.13
And that's why
when we speak even
00:43:59.14\00:44:01.43
about a word like
spiritual and formation,
00:44:01.44\00:44:04.56
formation is good,
transformation, sanctification,
00:44:04.57\00:44:09.43
but what happens
is like the term used,
00:44:09.44\00:44:12.11
C.A., hijacked, sometimes
the term can be hijacked.
00:44:12.12\00:44:16.37
And what--what we
used to think was spiritual
00:44:16.38\00:44:19.48
as in based on relationship
with God through His word,
00:44:19.49\00:44:24.53
through His Son Jesus.
00:44:24.54\00:44:26.01
Now, becomes an umbrella under
00:44:26.02\00:44:28.65
which all kinds of non-biblical,
00:44:28.66\00:44:31.85
non--Christian
ideas can be pushed.
00:44:31.86\00:44:35.19
And what happens is
people then come and they say,
00:44:35.20\00:44:38.69
"Well, we're
talking about spirituality."
00:44:38.70\00:44:42.15
But it may have
nothing to do with God
00:44:42.16\00:44:44.20
and nothing to
do with scripture.
00:44:44.21\00:44:46.18
I think that one of the reasons.
00:44:46.19\00:44:48.56
For example, in
the special issue,
00:44:48.57\00:44:50.66
we called it
Biblical Spirituality.
00:44:50.67\00:44:53.73
We didn't use to
have to say that.
00:44:53.74\00:44:56.25
We just assumed when we
talked about spirituality
00:44:56.26\00:44:59.72
that the Bible
was the foundation.
00:44:59.73\00:45:01.72
But I don't think we
can assume that anymore.
00:45:01.73\00:45:05.08
And so we need to
use that terms wisely,
00:45:05.09\00:45:08.33
I think we need to talk
about Biblical Spirituality.
00:45:08.34\00:45:11.84
When we talk--
another example, for example,
00:45:11.85\00:45:14.41
we talked about meditation.
00:45:14.42\00:45:16.63
Our heritages, a movement,
00:45:16.64\00:45:18.93
Ellen White encourages
spent a thoughtful hour
00:45:18.94\00:45:21.44
each day in contemplation
of the life of Christ.
00:45:21.45\00:45:25.42
Take it scene by scene.
00:45:25.43\00:45:27.07
But if you read what she said
00:45:27.08\00:45:28.56
and in "Thoughts from
the Mount of Blessing"
00:45:28.57\00:45:30.23
page 1 about
going with the disciples
00:45:30.24\00:45:32.92
on the- on the mountain.
00:45:32.93\00:45:34.96
It always takes
us back to the Bible.
00:45:34.97\00:45:37.98
So in past generations
when we spoke of spirituality,
00:45:37.99\00:45:42.12
the Bible was right with it.
00:45:42.13\00:45:43.91
Today there's
been this dislocation.
00:45:43.92\00:45:48.60
And so I think
what we need to ask is,
00:45:48.61\00:45:50.70
is this Biblical Spirituality?
00:45:50.71\00:45:53.82
Well done. Anyone else?
00:45:53.83\00:45:56.15
You've asked for the
definition of spirituality.
00:45:56.16\00:46:00.94
Let me suggest the definition
00:46:00.95\00:46:02.20
that would go
something like this.
00:46:02.21\00:46:05.25
If you look at Paul's writings,
00:46:05.26\00:46:08.01
particularly
Romans 7 and Romans 8,
00:46:08.02\00:46:10.53
Paul talks about the cornel mind
00:46:10.54\00:46:12.83
and the spiritual mind.
00:46:12.84\00:46:15.00
Cornel has to be earthly,
00:46:15.01\00:46:18.01
spiritual would be in
the realm of eternal things.
00:46:18.02\00:46:22.68
So Biblical Spirituality
is the focus of the heart
00:46:22.69\00:46:27.47
and mind on the eternal
things of the Kingdom of God.
00:46:27.48\00:46:32.17
So that my life is transformed
00:46:32.18\00:46:34.72
and my desire is to glorify God
00:46:34.73\00:46:37.68
and witness for Him.
00:46:37.69\00:46:39.48
Biblical Spirituality is rooted
on the things of eternity.
00:46:39.49\00:46:44.53
It is not men
focused, but it's God focused.
00:46:44.54\00:46:48.41
It's not experience focused,
it's biblically focused.
00:46:48.42\00:46:52.78
It's not self
focused, it's service focused.
00:46:52.79\00:46:57.52
Well said. Harold?
00:46:57.53\00:46:59.89
You know, it seems to me
that kind of putting together
00:46:59.90\00:47:04.52
what the various
once of us have said that
00:47:04.53\00:47:10.47
we need to be very
sensitive to the good faith,
00:47:10.48\00:47:14.95
if you will of the seeker.
00:47:14.96\00:47:18.64
The seeker that
we're talking about
00:47:18.65\00:47:21.40
and hopeful of
helping is someone
00:47:21.41\00:47:24.60
who truly wants
to know God better.
00:47:24.61\00:47:27.96
That's the goal. That's
the hope of their heart.
00:47:27.97\00:47:32.14
And I suppose that may
be if there is one thing
00:47:32.15\00:47:36.86
that we might do is to be
able to put up a stop sign
00:47:36.87\00:47:42.04
that says to that person,
00:47:42.05\00:47:44.31
"If the path that you're taking
00:47:44.32\00:47:46.45
to find God bypasses reason,
00:47:46.46\00:47:51.09
bypasses scripture,
00:47:51.10\00:47:53.93
bypasses a true
knowledge of God,
00:47:53.94\00:47:57.49
and jumps directly
into some relationship
00:47:57.50\00:48:02.76
that's a--that's a real
warning sign to stay away.
00:48:02.77\00:48:07.48
And to realize that
that path leads us no place,
00:48:07.49\00:48:11.91
but to the devil hands.
00:48:11.92\00:48:13.69
When you define
what something is you-
00:48:15.73\00:48:17.73
you Ipso facto
defined what it is not?
00:48:17.74\00:48:20.06
You--you alluded
to Derrick meditation.
00:48:20.07\00:48:23.77
Let's--let's try
to take a look at,
00:48:23.78\00:48:25.19
what is good meditation?
What is bad meditation?
00:48:25.20\00:48:27.79
We have that quote.
00:48:27.80\00:48:28.79
Well, Ellen White
says, "We do well."
00:48:28.80\00:48:30.50
To spend a few
thoughtful moments each day,
00:48:30.51\00:48:33.25
meditating on
the life of Christ,
00:48:33.26\00:48:35.60
and the acts of Christ.
So what's good mediation?
00:48:35.61\00:48:38.26
What's bad meditation?
00:48:38.27\00:48:39.64
What should we encourage?
What should we discourage?
00:48:39.65\00:48:42.70
I wanna thank Harold
00:48:42.71\00:48:43.70
for what he said
earlier about genuine secrets
00:48:43.71\00:48:47.42
because I can give my
testimony that 27 years ago
00:48:47.43\00:48:51.57
when I really felt
this longing in my heart
00:48:51.58\00:48:54.45
for a closer
relationship with God,
00:48:54.46\00:48:56.37
I was not trying to
go down the wrong path.
00:48:56.38\00:48:59.76
And so I was seeking.
00:48:59.77\00:49:02.56
And read the book,
00:49:02.57\00:49:05.73
Celebration of
Discipline by Richard Foster.
00:49:05.74\00:49:09.58
Listen to some
thoughts about meditation,
00:49:09.59\00:49:13.34
heard people talk
about imagining Jesus,
00:49:13.35\00:49:17.92
but it wasn't
rooted in the Bible.
00:49:17.93\00:49:20.59
I wish I could tell you
that I immediately saw that,
00:49:20.60\00:49:23.97
but I think Harold was right
00:49:23.98\00:49:25.81
and saying that sometimes
when people are really seeking,
00:49:25.82\00:49:30.30
they may take a
turn down the wrong path
00:49:30.31\00:49:32.70
and someone
needs to hold up that,
00:49:32.71\00:49:34.88
some watchman
needs to blow a trumpet
00:49:34.89\00:49:36.75
to use the text you
read, C.A., the beginning.
00:49:36.76\00:49:40.54
The danger, and I think
Mark alluded to at the very,
00:49:40.55\00:49:43.31
very beginning is that we say,
00:49:43.32\00:49:45.76
"Oh, that's bad, I'm not gonna
do any kind of meditation."
00:49:45.77\00:49:49.14
When the Bible is
filled with an admonition
00:49:49.15\00:49:52.08
to meditate
upon the Word of God?
00:49:52.09\00:49:54.89
The writings of Ellen White
are filled with encouragement,
00:49:54.90\00:49:58.64
you sited from
Desire of Ages, page 83.
00:49:58.65\00:50:01.99
Thoughts from the
Mount of Blessing,
00:50:02.00\00:50:03.22
page 1 about the
Sermon on the Mount.
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So if I'm going to
follow a Biblical Spirituality
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in terms of meditation,
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I'm going to read a
passage of scripture,
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I am going to think about it.
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Mark talked about
thoughtful prayer contemplation.
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I'm going to ask
as-- as Dan said,
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"How may I going to live this?
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What's they can
look like in life?
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And then, C.A.,
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and I think this
is crucially important
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because I'm following
a Biblical Spirituality.
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Whatever conclusion I come to,
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I then test
that by the scripture
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because the conclusion
will never be from my meditation
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that I should leave my spouse
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and--and move in
with the person next door.
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A spirit guide or a Jesus
impersonator could say that,
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but the Bible
will never say that.
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And so as I
meditate upon the word,
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I'm basing my-- you
talk about meditation as-
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as an example, I'm
basing my reflection
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on a passage of scripture.
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Story of Jesus,
sitting on the mountain
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and saying to the people,
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"You are the
light of the world."
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And I meditate,
what is that mean?
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I thought Jesus was
the light of the world.
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John 8 verse 12.
But then He says,
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"He who follows me
will no walk in darkness,
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but have the light of
life." So what does that mean?
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That Jesus Christ in
me the hope of glory.
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So I reflect on
that based on scripture.
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Then whatever
conclusion I come to
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I'm willing to
test that by the Bible.
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I will not be let astray if I--
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if I base my
reflection on scripture
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and test my
conclusion by scripture
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because the word testifies,
your word is a lamp--Yes.
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To my feet and a
light to my path.
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So we're not excluding
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that
experiential knowledge of God,
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but if I'm not
gonna be let astray,
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I have to base it on the
word and tested by the word.
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C.A., let me jump in here.
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There is a vast difference
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between eastern meditation
and Christian meditation.
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They start in two
fundamentally different places.
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And it has to do
with the definition
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of the nature of man
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and the immortality of the soul.
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In eastern
mysticism the concept is that
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every human being has
within them this immortal soul.
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And that immortal
soul in eastern mysticism
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is the spark of God within.
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So when eastern mysticism,
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you attempt enter into
the deepest part of your being
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and you attempt to get in touch
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with this
immortality within you.
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And in that way, you
silence your thoughts.
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In that way, you're
at peace with yourself
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and with God within you,
and you become one with God.
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Now, in many of the
eastern philosophies,
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Buddhism for example,
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after death
there is no real heaven
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but there is this oneness
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with the divine
almost a Nirvana experience.
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So eastern mysticism
starts with the concept
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of the immortality of the soul,
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it's starts with the concept
of getting in touch with God
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within yourself which
is that divine portion.
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Biblical Christianity
is dramatically different.
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Jeremiah 17 verse 9,
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"The heart is
deceitful above all things,
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and desperately wicked.
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Jeremiah 13:33.
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"Can the
leopard change his spots
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or the Ethiopian skin?" You
go in the Jeremiah talks about,
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no neither can
you change your lives
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without Christ is the whole
implication of Jeremiah 13.
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Isaiah 53, "All we like
sheep have gone astray."
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So in Biblical Christianity,
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the nature of
human being is fallen
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so we don't look
within ourselves,
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in our meditation. Isaiah 45:22,
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"Look unto me, and be ye saved,
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all the ends of the
earth, for I am God,
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and there is none
else." That Jesus says.
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So we're looking
out of ourselves.
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We don't find
answers within ourselves
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we find answers
out of ourselves.
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We're looking to Christ.
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We're looking at His word.
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In genuine Christian meditation,
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we meditate on the Word of God,
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the works of God,
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in nature His might of creation.
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We meditate on
the cross of Calvary
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and the greatness of Christ.
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And by looking out of ourselves
to the goodness of God,
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His grace, His mercy by pausing
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and meditating on the acts
of Jesus Christ on the cross,
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on meditating on His life.
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We are
transformed into His likeness.
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Looking into our self,
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we only find sin
and guilt, and shame.
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Looking to Him, we
find hope and salvation.
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And that's
essentially the different.
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Eastern meditation,
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Christian meditation
start in two different places.
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Frank? I was just
sitting here thinking
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one of these questions
pretty soon is going to be,
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do you meditate?
How do you meditate?
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And I've had to think
in my head, do I meditate?
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I have been a Seventh-day
Adventist for 37 years,
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and I don't remember
saying to myself at anytime.
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I am going to go in my bedroom
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and I am going to meditate.
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We don't seem to
equate the same thing
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as do the eastern religions.
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In the same term,
I'll spend an hour
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with the Lord
communing with God,
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conversing with
God with what I read,
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and I respond, I pray aloud,
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I think that's most
profitable way to pray.
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In the evening, I
go up the mountain
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I'll talk with
God about everything
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I need to talk to Him about.
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The only time I
come really close
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to what I suppose
someone would call meditation is
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when I'm preparing a sermon
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because I've got to draw
out of the text, what it is?
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I want to speak on.
00:56:16.85\00:56:18.46
And so then when I
prepare sermons then I stop
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and I think and
I pray and I plead,
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and I just ask
God to reveal to me
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what it is I must see in adverse
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so that I can feed the sheep.
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You understand?
Is that meditation?
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That's a kind
of recall question.
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May be Dan has
an answer for that.
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You know, I just
wanted to respond
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what I heard Mark saying.
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You know, Biblical
Christianity commands us
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with the God who is above me,
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the God who is the most high,
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the one who I honor.
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Whereas eastern mysticism
makes me God ultimately.
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The God within. You know,
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and it's a very foreign
concept to Christianity.
00:57:04.12\00:57:06.80
It is even blasphemies in terms
of what the scripture says,
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because I become God,
and God isn't God anymore.
00:57:10.34\00:57:13.26
So that--so that
the real idea here is
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that it always true,
00:57:17.12\00:57:19.62
genuine Biblical
Christianity will always have me
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raise my eyes to
the most high God.
00:57:23.90\00:57:26.27
It will never
ever point me within
00:57:26.28\00:57:29.75
Well done and well said.
00:57:30.37\00:57:31.72
Derrick, we have to yield
to the Tierney of television
00:57:31.73\00:57:35.12
and take a two minute break,
if you can hold that thought
00:57:35.13\00:57:37.49
we'll pick it up
on when we return,
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then I really want to
look at what centering prayer,
00:57:40.10\00:57:43.09
contemplative prayer is.
00:57:43.10\00:57:44.56
We'll do that when we come back.
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