Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
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We're so glad you've
joined us for our program today.
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We're titling the
program third season recap
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because we're going to
recap all of the programs
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we've had this season.
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Let me give you just
a little bit of history.
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Our first season, we
didn't have guests at all.
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We just had a multitude
of counselors discussing
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different mental health issues.
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The second season,
we decided to invite
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guests on that could help
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to make it a
little more personal
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and we discussed
mental health issues.
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This third season,
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we've had guests
but we've had guests
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taking up two
segments instead of just one.
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So we ended up
with an odd program,
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not that this is
going to be an odd program.
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It's going to be
an awesome program,
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but it's the 13th one,
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and what we're going to do
is recap all of the others.
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So I'm going to just
take them one by one.
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We're going to
spend four, five minutes
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talking over the
gist of the program
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and then what was the takeaway
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because we find that
mental health providers
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are often really
focused in problems.
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We wanted to find
the problem for sure,
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but we also wanna
have some kind of takeaway,
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some kind of action step.
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So let's do it,
guys. You up for it?
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Yes. Let's do this.
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So glad you're
here this morning.
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So let's
introduce our amazing panel
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of counselors today.
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It's Paul Coneff from Texas.
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He's a marriage
and family therapist
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and runs Straight 2
The Heart ministries
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and is an author and a
bunch of other amazing things.
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And we have Christina Cecotto.
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She's from Tennessee,
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she's a licensed
professional counselor.
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And oops, I said that wrong.
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You're an...
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LCSW, licensed clinical.
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LCSW, licensed
clinical social worker.
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But that effectively is
a professional counselor.
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And we have Dr. Jean Wright,
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he's a clinical
forensic psychologist
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from Pennsylvania,
Philadelphia to be specific.
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And we have Rob Davison.
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And Rob Davison is a
professional counselor
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from Maryland.
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And I am so thankful
that each one of you are here
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to do this amazing recap.
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So let's put on
our thinking caps
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and try to distill down
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what was on each
one of these programs
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and what was the takeaway,
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what can we give
people to think about.
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Jamie George
talked about dictatorship
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in mental health.
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Boiling that down,
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we realize that
servant leadership
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was really an important thing
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because you can take
that dictatorship that
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micromanagement of people
that are under your power,
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so to speak,
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and you can take that
principle and that repression
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and you can put that in a family
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or in a church with
devastating results.
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Have you guys
every experienced that,
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micromanagement dictatorship?
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Yeah, control can
take place anywhere.
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That's right.
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And then we're shutting down
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other people's
ability to blossom.
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That's right. How so though?
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Like, why can't
we just be controlled
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and like
blossom in that control,
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like what happens?
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I think it's a matter of
really looking at leadership
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from a standpoint of
you don't manage people,
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you manage things, projects,
initiatives, you lead people.
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And so the
servant leadership part,
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for me, is that you serve first.
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And in your service,
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you demonstrate to the
people who work for you
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or with you or around you
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that that is the
most important thing.
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And then they are more
likely to follow your lead
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when you demonstrate an
air and an attitude of service.
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And I think it's, you
know, if somebody says,
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"I'm in charge, I'm
the head of the house,
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or I'm the CEO, whatever.
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I'm the leader
and you do it my way,"
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it's safe in the short run
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because I don't have
to navigate the messiness
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of getting to know your story,
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you getting to know
my story, working it out,
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creating win-win situations.
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It's much easier to just
say do it in the short run.
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But we lose the
relationship component.
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So it can seem more efficient,
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like a dictatorial
style of leadership
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can seem more
efficient in the short run,
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but it ends up
being less efficient
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in the long run,
would you say that?
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Oh, yeah.
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When we're on the receiving
end of being controlled,
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we take away all dignity,
we take away all creativity,
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and this is not
what God is about.
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I think that's the first
thing to go is the creativity.
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He gives us the
freedom of choice,
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and so we have to
figure out what life is about.
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Now, control is important,
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but we don't want
to be fully controlled,
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that just takes away our...
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A more dictatorship
authoritarian approach to me
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is the person's
very, very insecure.
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They don't have the security
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to enter into the
messiness of relationships
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where we're going
to agree to disagree.
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We're not always
going to think alike.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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So bottom line is we
need to encourage anybody
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in a position of
power over other people
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to be a servant leader
rather than a dictator.
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What do you do if
you're under a dictator?
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How can we
encourage those folks?
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Pray. Pray?
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Lots of prayer.
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Revolt? No.
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We have a lot of
examples, Daniel, Shadrach,
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Meshach, and Abednego.
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We have Mordecai
rising up and serving.
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There's ways to serve.
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Nehemiah was...
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So we have a lot of
biblical examples of people
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who were clear
about who they were,
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who their God was
while they were serving.
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Let me ask you a
question. I run into this.
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People say,
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"Wives should
submit to their husbands."
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And, you know,
we've all heard that.
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But some people take the view
that wives should always submit
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to their husbands
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unless the husband
asked them to do something
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that in and of itself is wrong.
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But I don't agree with that.
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And here's why.
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Because there are some husbands
that tell the wife what to eat,
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what to wear, what to say,
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and that in and
of itself is wrong
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because that's taking
away that woman's freewill.
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You get down to creation.
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We are created in whose image?
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God's. God's.
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So if I start micromanaging
somebody to the point
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where I'm
telling you what to do,
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how to dress, what to eat,
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am I robbing you?
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Of your individuality.
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And to me, the
evil of dictatorship
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and that kind of
control, and it's mind control.
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That's right.
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It might be too strong of
a word, but it's mind rape.
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We're raping
somebody else's mind.
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Yes.
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And so what we're doing is
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I'm creating
you now in my image.
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That's right.
That's why it's wrong.
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That's why it's controlling.
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And so even if nothing...
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We're not asked to
do something immoral
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in a given
dictatorship situation,
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it's just the
control that's wrong.
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I really like the verse
that says everything you do,
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do unto God, not unto man.
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And I can't quote
the reference exactly,
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but I think that
goes with everything.
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We don't need to eat
and dress and everything
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according to what our
husbands want necessarily.
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Of course, we want to
take into consideration...
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There might be a
place for submission
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even to a tyrant.
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Depends on the context.
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There's a line, there's just
a point where you can't submit.
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But we also...
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And we'll get into it
later, but Mike Tucker,
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we talked about the difference
between being in a relationship
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with dysfunction versus abuse.
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Yes, yeah.
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And even in Ephesians
5 where it says submit,
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before that, it says
submit, one, to God first.
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And then before that,
it says speak to evil,
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don't associate with it.
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So in Ephesians 5, it says,
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if there's evil, if
there's wrong, expose it,
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not just submit to it
mindlessly because then,
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if I submit to it mindlessly,
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I'm giving up my responsibility
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to be a thinking person
created in the image of God.
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And you're actually creating
a codependent relationship too
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when you're enabling
the abuser or the dictator
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or whatever you want to call it
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to continue acting
the way that he's acting.
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I've seen this on
church boards for many years.
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There was a bully
on the church board
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and nobody wants to take him on
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because they know
they'll be his next target.
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You'll see what happens.
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So now they're reinforcing,
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they're enabling
his negative behavior.
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Scripture is clear.
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It's not just the woman
to submit to the husband.
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The husband is also
to submit to the wife.
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Amen.
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It goes both ways.
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And what is submission
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but it's a
willingness to want to serve.
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Certainly, yeah.
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Submission is
predicated on sacrifice.
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So if someone has
sacrificed for you,
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you can safely submit to them
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because they have
your good in mind.
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So moving on to the
next program we had,
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it actually kind of
flows into their theme.
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They talked about becoming
life partners through prayer.
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It was Jason and
Natanya Vanderlaan.
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And they literally fell in
love and courted in the context
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of going through a
40-day prayer challenge
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on the phone.
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He lives several states away.
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And they talked about
the way that they conduct
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their marriage and
how they're committed
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to radical
honesty with one another.
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And so they talk
through difficult issues.
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They have the hard conversations
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because they
don't want to stray away
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from their
union even in thought.
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And they have different views.
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So what do we do
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if we have
different views in a marriage?
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We have to bring...
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We may not be able to
have the same narrative,
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but we can at least
coordinate our narratives,
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and we can at least
understand one another.
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What I find is that people
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don't really need
to be agreed with.
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They just need to be understood.
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Have you found that to be true?
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Yes.
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This is the model
that God has of marriage.
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He doesn't expect us to be
carbon copies of each other.
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And when you say
radical openness,
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that is the key to
relationship is that openness
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and the honesty
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and what that
will develop over time,
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the more we know one another,
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the more we're going
to be into each other,
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that is intimacy.
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That is
into-me-see. That's beautiful.
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And I think we
need to also look at
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our styles of relating,
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how have I learned to navigate
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and survive in life
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and how do I bring
that into the marriage
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because a lot of marriages,
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you know, we just talked about
controlling dominant marriages,
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dictatorship,
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but there can also
be where both couples
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avoid conflict.
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It can be a quiet
marriage on the outside.
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But we're not having
those difficult issues.
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And there are
some who brag about,
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"I never had a
fight with my spouse."
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And I always think,
"What's wrong with this?"
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Well, maybe
it's good, I hope so.
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Maybe they're actually working
things out, but sometimes,
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it means that
there's just this quietness
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and there's so
much going on inside
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and there's so much sadness
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and pain and
nothing's being discussed.
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Or one person is
completely subjugated
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to the other and they
have no individually left.
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Right.
00:09:49.82\00:09:51.15
I've had people tell me, like,
after I do marriage counseling,
00:09:51.19\00:09:52.82
"Well, we don't
really have those problems."
00:09:52.85\00:09:54.19
And I asked one couple, I said,
00:09:54.22\00:09:55.56
"Well, there's one
person not showing up."
00:09:55.59\00:09:57.16
Exactly.
00:09:57.19\00:09:58.53
And the husband is honest.
00:09:58.56\00:09:59.89
And he said, "Well,
00:09:59.93\00:10:01.26
my wife does tend to please me."
00:10:01.30\00:10:02.63
So what that means is
he needs to be responsible
00:10:02.66\00:10:04.97
to be drawing her out.
00:10:05.00\00:10:06.33
Yeah.
00:10:06.37\00:10:07.70
Because otherwise,
if she's just pleasing,
00:10:07.74\00:10:09.07
they're missing out
on the real intimacy.
00:10:09.10\00:10:10.44
Don't take advantage of
her passive personality.
00:10:10.47\00:10:12.74
Or she's just going to
please and not rock the waves.
00:10:12.77\00:10:15.41
And that's not
getting a close touch.
00:10:15.44\00:10:18.45
And true servant leadership
00:10:18.48\00:10:19.81
lifts people to
their full potential.
00:10:19.85\00:10:21.78
Yeah. Exactly.
00:10:21.82\00:10:23.15
It's like we
should be high tides
00:10:23.18\00:10:24.52
because when the
high tide comes in,
00:10:24.55\00:10:25.89
it lifts all the boats.
00:10:25.92\00:10:27.26
Love that.
00:10:27.29\00:10:28.62
And I think one of the barriers
00:10:28.66\00:10:29.99
to radical
honesty is defensiveness.
00:10:30.03\00:10:32.59
What do you mean?
00:10:32.63\00:10:33.96
There's this personalizing,
I guess, or shaming of oneself.
00:10:34.00\00:10:38.57
"Man, I must not be any good
if she's saying such and such"
00:10:38.60\00:10:40.87
as opposed to
"Okay, let's work on this.
00:10:40.90\00:10:43.20
This behavior that
00:10:43.24\00:10:44.57
she's talking
about really stinks."
00:10:44.61\00:10:45.97
So kind of making
some distance between that.
00:10:46.01\00:10:48.41
The hardest complaint to hear
is the one about you, you know?
00:10:48.44\00:10:51.91
And I think that's
why it's so important
00:10:51.95\00:10:53.55
to listen and not just hear.
00:10:53.58\00:10:56.22
It sounds simple,
it's difficult to do.
00:10:56.25\00:10:58.42
And when people are talking
00:10:58.45\00:11:00.09
and you have
that radical honesty,
00:11:00.12\00:11:01.66
we're preparing our response
to what the person is saying.
00:11:01.69\00:11:04.13
That means you're not listening.
00:11:04.16\00:11:05.49
Instead of listening to that.
Yeah, you're not listening.
00:11:05.53\00:11:06.86
It's really dying
to self. Absolutely.
00:11:06.90\00:11:08.23
And really
focusing on the other person
00:11:08.26\00:11:10.00
and being willing to
enter in, and be a team player.
00:11:10.03\00:11:12.10
You have to make time
to do that though and know
00:11:12.13\00:11:13.87
that that's what
you're going to be doing.
00:11:13.90\00:11:15.24
And you may hear
some hard truths,
00:11:15.27\00:11:16.81
you know, but that's fine.
00:11:16.84\00:11:18.17
You know, if you're
going to do this together,
00:11:18.21\00:11:19.57
that's what communication is.
00:11:19.61\00:11:20.94
And that's how
you grow. Exactly.
00:11:20.98\00:11:22.31
It's avoided
because it's painful,
00:11:22.34\00:11:23.68
but that's how you
grow. If you don't avoid it...
00:11:23.71\00:11:25.05
We actually had
a lot of real alpha
00:11:25.08\00:11:26.55
types on this season,
00:11:26.58\00:11:28.68
did you notice
that, like several,
00:11:28.72\00:11:30.59
like really high
powered individuals?
00:11:30.62\00:11:32.22
And one of them
was Sean Boonstra,
00:11:32.25\00:11:33.99
and his program was titled
00:11:34.02\00:11:36.26
"The Man Who Almost Never Slept"
00:11:36.29\00:11:37.96
because he has sleep issues.
00:11:37.99\00:11:40.26
But we dug down into
the layers, didn't we?
00:11:40.30\00:11:43.00
And we found that
00:11:43.03\00:11:44.37
he also has some
issues with perfectionism,
00:11:44.40\00:11:46.60
but then it's kind of
hard to call it an issue
00:11:46.63\00:11:48.54
because it really works for
him and he's a high achiever.
00:11:48.57\00:11:51.07
And he kind of wasn't
ready to let go of it.
00:11:51.11\00:11:54.84
We really tried with
him but it was just...
00:11:54.88\00:11:56.75
Didn't he kind of separate out?
00:11:56.78\00:11:58.65
He really
compartmentalized, like...
00:11:58.68\00:12:00.82
We identified
perfectionism for sure.
00:12:00.85\00:12:03.69
I proposed the idea of
putting a tweet out there
00:12:03.72\00:12:07.52
with a typo in it
and leaving the typo,
00:12:07.56\00:12:09.62
and he almost had a
meltdown right in front of us.
00:12:09.66\00:12:12.03
But he said that
he had completely
00:12:12.06\00:12:14.36
compartmentalized salvation
00:12:14.40\00:12:16.43
away from his career
achievement perfectionism.
00:12:16.46\00:12:19.57
So he knew that he
stood in Christ's merits,
00:12:19.60\00:12:22.47
but he was also
very, very particular
00:12:22.50\00:12:24.24
about the work that he did.
00:12:24.27\00:12:26.21
So we decided to leave it there.
00:12:26.24\00:12:28.28
He did say that we
should do another program
00:12:28.31\00:12:30.75
with him on introversion
00:12:30.78\00:12:32.11
because he claims he's
just an incredible introvert,
00:12:32.15\00:12:34.18
so we'll have to
revisit that and see if we get
00:12:34.22\00:12:36.82
a little farther next
time with Sean Boonstra,
00:12:36.85\00:12:38.89
but he was delightful to have...
00:12:38.92\00:12:40.36
We also had Mike Tucker,
another type A high achiever.
00:12:40.39\00:12:45.29
He talked about
00:12:45.33\00:12:46.66
a vulnerable moment of his life.
00:12:46.70\00:12:48.06
He had lost his wife
of 40 years recently,
00:12:48.10\00:12:53.34
a couple years ago.
00:12:53.37\00:12:54.70
And then we
talked about that story,
00:12:54.74\00:12:57.21
and then his remarriage.
00:12:57.24\00:12:59.21
Did you guys track with that?
00:12:59.24\00:13:00.98
That was a pretty
heart-wrenching story.
00:13:01.01\00:13:03.68
It was just a
short amount of time
00:13:03.71\00:13:05.05
that he found out
that she had pancreatic
00:13:05.08\00:13:07.02
and liver cancer,
00:13:07.05\00:13:08.38
and then a few weeks later...
00:13:08.42\00:13:09.75
She was gone. She was gone.
00:13:09.78\00:13:11.12
And one of the things
he said was so interesting.
00:13:11.15\00:13:13.19
It was several
months after she had died,
00:13:13.22\00:13:15.99
and he was just
kind of getting through
00:13:16.02\00:13:17.56
the grief process.
00:13:17.59\00:13:19.06
But something great
happened with his ministry,
00:13:19.09\00:13:22.13
some triumph, you know,
that he had accomplished,
00:13:22.16\00:13:24.27
and God had done an
amazing thing for him.
00:13:24.30\00:13:26.84
And immediately, he
wanted to call someone.
00:13:26.87\00:13:29.17
But there was
nobody to share with.
00:13:29.20\00:13:30.54
And there was no one to call.
00:13:30.57\00:13:31.91
And then he realized,
"I need to get remarried,"
00:13:31.94\00:13:33.71
I think he
thought in that moment.
00:13:33.74\00:13:35.38
Didn't he say that one reason
to get married is that so that,
00:13:35.41\00:13:39.71
especially, the woman
can witness the man's life.
00:13:39.75\00:13:42.38
What does that mean to witness
the life, didn't he say that?
00:13:42.42\00:13:44.95
I think he said
something to that effect.
00:13:44.99\00:13:46.45
We all need a witness.
00:13:46.49\00:13:47.82
We need somebody close to us
00:13:47.86\00:13:49.19
because we are defining intimacy
00:13:49.22\00:13:51.09
as not just sexual intimacy
00:13:51.13\00:13:53.29
because that's what we
tend to put on the term,
00:13:53.33\00:13:55.33
but intimacy is really
sharing our life together,
00:13:55.36\00:13:57.90
sharing our stories,
creating meaning together.
00:13:57.93\00:14:00.27
And when he has
something very special happen,
00:14:00.30\00:14:02.44
he had no special person
to add to the meaning of that,
00:14:02.47\00:14:05.91
to witness that, see that.
00:14:05.94\00:14:07.71
And being married
keeps you accountable.
00:14:07.74\00:14:09.44
Doesn't that go back
to why God created us?
00:14:09.48\00:14:11.68
Because He wants to share
Him with us and us with Him.
00:14:11.71\00:14:18.22
Right.
00:14:18.25\00:14:19.59
I mean, the whole point of
creating Eve speaks to that.
00:14:19.62\00:14:21.89
I mean, Adam was
doing pretty well.
00:14:21.92\00:14:23.59
I don't know how
long he was by himself,
00:14:23.63\00:14:24.96
but he was not paired up,
and the rest of the people...
00:14:24.99\00:14:27.96
I'm sorry,
00:14:28.00\00:14:29.33
the rest of the animals
in garden had a partner.
00:14:29.36\00:14:30.70
They're people,
animals or people too.
00:14:30.73\00:14:32.07
Thank you very
much. Appreciate that.
00:14:32.10\00:14:33.84
But yeah, he was alone.
00:14:33.87\00:14:35.20
And it's not good
for man to be alone.
00:14:35.24\00:14:36.57
Right, right.
00:14:36.60\00:14:37.94
And so from the
very beginning...
00:14:37.97\00:14:39.31
And Tucker talked
about particularly males,
00:14:39.34\00:14:40.71
men, have a hard time being...
00:14:40.74\00:14:42.54
And we know the
research is that men do
00:14:42.58\00:14:44.68
better health wise
and mental health wise...
00:14:44.71\00:14:47.52
We live longer. Yeah.
00:14:47.55\00:14:48.88
We keep them on
track. Absolutely.
00:14:48.92\00:14:51.15
Get married pretty quickly.
00:14:51.19\00:14:52.52
What do you say, 10
to 15 months after...
00:14:52.55\00:14:55.06
A man that's happily
married, typically marries...
00:14:55.09\00:14:57.46
Yeah, so that's
the average statistic.
00:14:57.49\00:14:59.59
Yeah, that was
certainly true in his case.
00:14:59.63\00:15:01.23
But I love that thought that
00:15:01.26\00:15:02.63
we need to not
only love and be loved,
00:15:02.66\00:15:05.13
but we need to
know and be known.
00:15:05.17\00:15:07.80
That experience of
having someone else
00:15:07.84\00:15:09.84
witness your life is,
00:15:09.87\00:15:11.47
I think,
essential to mental health.
00:15:11.51\00:15:12.97
And maybe we could speak
00:15:13.01\00:15:14.58
to the lonely
people in the world
00:15:14.61\00:15:15.94
because
loneliness is so pandemic.
00:15:15.98\00:15:18.68
How can people start to connect?
00:15:18.71\00:15:20.62
What are some of the things
00:15:20.65\00:15:21.98
that you share
with your clients, guys?
00:15:22.02\00:15:24.52
I think it's
important to find small groups.
00:15:24.55\00:15:27.66
It can be two or three,
it could be five or six,
00:15:27.69\00:15:29.19
seven people
00:15:29.22\00:15:30.56
that we're
sharing life together.
00:15:30.59\00:15:32.03
Amen, amen.
00:15:32.06\00:15:33.40
I think it's important also
to participate in activities,
00:15:33.43\00:15:36.46
particularly, like
a community service,
00:15:36.50\00:15:38.63
you know, joining yourself
to a group, an organization,
00:15:38.67\00:15:41.20
someone who's doing
good. Having a purpose.
00:15:41.24\00:15:42.57
Yeah, having a purpose,
doing good, helping others.
00:15:42.60\00:15:44.74
When you help others,
00:15:44.77\00:15:46.11
it takes the
focus off of yourself
00:15:46.14\00:15:47.48
and your loneliness.
00:15:47.51\00:15:48.84
You're living a larger story.
00:15:48.88\00:15:50.21
Yeah, absolutely.
00:15:50.25\00:15:51.58
Pushing yourself a
little bit to get out there
00:15:51.61\00:15:52.98
when we don't really feel like.
00:15:53.01\00:15:54.35
Yeah. Right.
00:15:54.38\00:15:55.72
You know, I was waiting
for this scripture to come in.
00:15:55.75\00:15:58.05
And this is the
place. Okay, go for it.
00:15:58.09\00:16:00.16
We're talking about
relationship and knowing.
00:16:00.19\00:16:02.46
Okay.
00:16:02.49\00:16:05.46
John 17:3 says...
00:16:05.49\00:16:08.26
It says, "And
this is eternal life
00:16:08.30\00:16:09.90
that they may know You,
00:16:09.93\00:16:11.27
the only true
God and Jesus Christ
00:16:11.30\00:16:12.90
whom You have sent."
00:16:12.93\00:16:14.27
We're talking about knowing God
00:16:14.30\00:16:15.87
and Jesus Christ,
00:16:15.90\00:16:17.24
and we don't just know Him,
00:16:17.27\00:16:18.61
that's a process of
getting to know Him.
00:16:18.64\00:16:20.38
So for lonely people,
yes, we need the small groups,
00:16:20.41\00:16:22.88
we need to get out
in the communities too.
00:16:22.91\00:16:24.71
But to know the
Father and the Son,
00:16:24.75\00:16:27.52
that is the foundation
of what all of our clients
00:16:27.55\00:16:30.99
and we need is to
know, and that's a process.
00:16:31.02\00:16:34.82
So that's the
vertical connection.
00:16:34.86\00:16:36.26
And you're saying that
people will actually do better,
00:16:36.29\00:16:39.06
I'm adding to
what you're saying,
00:16:39.09\00:16:40.43
in the horizontal
relationship process
00:16:40.46\00:16:42.53
if they have that
vertical connection.
00:16:42.56\00:16:45.40
I think that God
is all about that.
00:16:45.43\00:16:47.14
But don't people also
come to the vertical connection
00:16:47.17\00:16:50.27
through horizontal
fellowship so they kind of...
00:16:50.31\00:16:52.14
Both ways. Both ways.
00:16:52.17\00:16:53.61
But also scientific research
shows those who live faithfully
00:16:53.64\00:16:56.41
tend to live longer, healthier,
recover from surgery better.
00:16:56.44\00:16:59.38
So, you know, oftentimes,
00:16:59.41\00:17:01.18
people find one
thing that they like,
00:17:01.22\00:17:02.82
and then they camp on
just that, just small groups,
00:17:02.85\00:17:04.72
just outreach, just a
relationship with God.
00:17:04.75\00:17:06.82
We need all the
pieces of the puzzle.
00:17:06.86\00:17:08.32
And it's interesting to
me that all of the things
00:17:08.36\00:17:10.43
that we've mentioned here,
00:17:10.46\00:17:11.79
faith, small
groups, and activities,
00:17:11.83\00:17:13.90
and community services
type of thing are all things
00:17:13.93\00:17:17.13
that we can find through church.
00:17:17.17\00:17:18.50
Yes.
00:17:18.53\00:17:19.87
You know, I'm
constantly telling my clients,
00:17:19.90\00:17:21.24
you need to find a church home.
00:17:21.27\00:17:22.60
Right.
00:17:22.64\00:17:23.97
And because that's
like the clearinghouse
00:17:24.01\00:17:25.34
of all these different things.
00:17:25.37\00:17:26.71
Another tool, I
think too, is journaling.
00:17:26.74\00:17:30.55
If you're not having a partner,
if you don't have a partner,
00:17:30.58\00:17:32.78
or if you're
grieving, journaling, I think,
00:17:32.81\00:17:34.55
is a really good tool
because it can help you
00:17:34.58\00:17:37.25
take time to
reflect on yourself.
00:17:37.29\00:17:39.55
It can help you
realize things about yourself.
00:17:39.59\00:17:41.36
And actually, there's a quote,
00:17:41.39\00:17:43.46
and it actually talks
about the secret of the success
00:17:43.49\00:17:46.09
of a Christian walk.
00:17:46.13\00:17:47.76
And it says, "Christian workers
00:17:47.80\00:17:49.13
can never attain
the highest success
00:17:49.16\00:17:51.50
until they learn
the secret of strength.
00:17:51.53\00:17:53.23
They must give themselves
time to think, to pray,
00:17:53.27\00:17:56.37
to wait upon God for
the renewal of physical,
00:17:56.40\00:17:59.21
mental, and spiritual power."
00:17:59.24\00:18:00.98
Time to think, "What's that?"
00:18:01.01\00:18:04.85
And Mike spoke to that
because he talked about it,
00:18:04.88\00:18:07.02
he did writing, and
writing, and writing about it.
00:18:07.05\00:18:09.32
And he also
walked, like he said,
00:18:09.35\00:18:11.22
I think 15 miles
a day or something,
00:18:11.25\00:18:13.92
which I totally get
00:18:13.96\00:18:15.29
because I think
best when I walk,
00:18:15.32\00:18:17.69
and I actually
take clients on walks
00:18:17.73\00:18:19.53
when they have trauma
to work through sometimes
00:18:19.56\00:18:21.20
because walking
bilateralizes the brain.
00:18:21.23\00:18:23.60
So I think
walking is a gift to us
00:18:23.63\00:18:25.67
to help us process mentally.
00:18:25.70\00:18:27.04
Have you found that to be
true? Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:18:27.07\00:18:29.14
And a disclaimer
about the journaling.
00:18:29.17\00:18:31.21
If you're
journaling for grief purposes,
00:18:31.24\00:18:33.11
I always tell people,
00:18:33.14\00:18:34.94
you can pour out your heart
00:18:34.98\00:18:36.31
just like David
did in the Psalms,
00:18:36.34\00:18:37.68
but you want to make sure
you end on a positive note.
00:18:37.71\00:18:40.72
And what I did
with one individual is,
00:18:40.75\00:18:42.62
every time they just poured
out how hopeless they felt
00:18:42.65\00:18:45.45
that they found a
verse that was contrary
00:18:45.49\00:18:47.96
to what they were feeling
00:18:47.99\00:18:49.46
because when they
started journaling,
00:18:49.49\00:18:50.83
they actually
got more depressed.
00:18:50.86\00:18:52.33
And so I said, "Okay, we
got to add in some verses.
00:18:52.36\00:18:54.43
And that's where Comfort
for the Day by Karen Nicola,
00:18:54.46\00:18:56.83
that's very good.
00:18:56.87\00:18:58.20
It's comfort for the day,
so it's one day at a time,
00:18:58.23\00:19:00.74
we're not asking
you to read a book,
00:19:00.77\00:19:02.10
we're asking to
think about scripture,
00:19:02.14\00:19:03.64
process the point.
00:19:03.67\00:19:05.01
Now isn't it so though
00:19:05.04\00:19:06.47
that there are going to be times
00:19:06.51\00:19:07.84
when grief is so intense
00:19:07.88\00:19:09.21
that you can't
see anything positive,
00:19:09.24\00:19:10.58
like I'm thinking Pat Arrabito,
A Mother's Tears that program?
00:19:10.61\00:19:14.25
There was a period of
time there she lost her husband
00:19:14.28\00:19:16.45
and her two oldest
children to a plane crash,
00:19:16.48\00:19:19.75
all in one fell, swoop.
00:19:19.79\00:19:21.12
And how could you
possibly think positive
00:19:21.16\00:19:24.86
or I should say feel positive
00:19:24.89\00:19:26.53
even though she's continued
to claim the promises of God?
00:19:26.56\00:19:28.73
I don't think you're
going to feel positive
00:19:28.76\00:19:30.23
but I think
grieving with hope is key
00:19:30.27\00:19:33.00
to not getting into something
called complicated grief
00:19:33.03\00:19:35.60
which is the
unhealthy type of grieving.
00:19:35.64\00:19:38.97
Yeah, go ahead.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
00:19:39.01\00:19:40.44
She made it very clear
00:19:40.48\00:19:41.81
that she wasn't
preparing for a crisis,
00:19:41.84\00:19:45.21
but she was
prepared for the crisis.
00:19:45.25\00:19:47.02
How?
00:19:47.05\00:19:48.38
She had a walk with
God that was very solid.
00:19:48.42\00:19:51.15
And then when the crisis came,
00:19:51.19\00:19:52.99
she had a lot to fall
back onto that God is good,
00:19:53.02\00:19:56.46
that God is going
to get her through this
00:19:56.49\00:19:57.83
even though it
was extremely painful.
00:19:57.86\00:19:59.19
Yeah.
00:19:59.23\00:20:00.56
And she said the one
thing she couldn't handle
00:20:00.60\00:20:01.93
was losing children.
00:20:01.96\00:20:03.30
So she's being honest with God.
00:20:03.33\00:20:04.93
She not only said
that there's one thing
00:20:04.97\00:20:06.57
she couldn't handle but she knew
00:20:06.60\00:20:08.10
that God would
not take her children.
00:20:08.14\00:20:09.47
Right.
00:20:09.50\00:20:10.84
And then that very belief
that she had was shattered
00:20:10.87\00:20:13.17
when she learned
that they were gone,
00:20:13.21\00:20:14.54
I mean, no survivors.
00:20:14.58\00:20:15.91
Can you imagine that moment?
00:20:15.94\00:20:17.28
And then she had to
accept that reality.
00:20:17.31\00:20:18.65
Wow.
00:20:18.68\00:20:20.02
So part of her preparation
was being honest with God,
00:20:20.05\00:20:22.45
and then when life
radically shifted for her,
00:20:22.48\00:20:25.15
she moved into
that reality with God,
00:20:25.19\00:20:27.09
which has a lot of sadness,
a lot of pain, a lot of grief,
00:20:27.12\00:20:29.72
but she moved into it
in a very realistic way.
00:20:29.76\00:20:32.13
And she also
spoke very poignantly
00:20:32.16\00:20:34.63
about the effect on
her two surviving children
00:20:34.66\00:20:37.50
that were younger,
00:20:37.53\00:20:38.87
which really touched
me when she talked about,
00:20:38.90\00:20:40.60
you know, her
children, especially her son.
00:20:40.64\00:20:42.90
And because at the
age, developmental level,
00:20:42.94\00:20:44.51
they were not
prepared for the loss
00:20:44.54\00:20:46.44
that they had experienced.
00:20:46.47\00:20:47.81
They lost half their family.
00:20:47.84\00:20:49.18
Right, and just
the simple things
00:20:49.21\00:20:50.55
like him setting the
table and having three bowls.
00:20:50.58\00:20:53.31
And saying,
"There's only three."
00:20:53.35\00:20:54.95
Yeah, when they
were a family of six.
00:20:54.98\00:20:56.79
That really hit me
that the difficulty
00:20:56.82\00:20:59.19
for children to
process grieve is different.
00:20:59.22\00:21:01.42
So yes, she had a
foundation with God,
00:21:01.46\00:21:03.16
and she said that God is good.
00:21:03.19\00:21:05.29
But a seven and nine-year-old,
maybe not the same.
00:21:05.33\00:21:08.46
And even though she had
that foundation with God,
00:21:08.50\00:21:10.40
imagine that
foundation shifting quite a bit.
00:21:10.43\00:21:12.27
Yes.
00:21:12.30\00:21:13.64
With that one
belief system that she had
00:21:13.67\00:21:15.00
and that God would
never take away her children
00:21:15.04\00:21:16.60
and yet that happened,
00:21:16.64\00:21:18.61
so even having that foundation
00:21:18.64\00:21:20.58
as her coping skill
was probably shifting.
00:21:20.61\00:21:23.01
This is maybe a subtle point.
00:21:23.04\00:21:24.38
But did it hurt her to believe
00:21:24.41\00:21:26.95
that God would
take her children?
00:21:26.98\00:21:29.45
I would say no.
00:21:29.48\00:21:30.89
And I would say, well,
00:21:30.92\00:21:32.25
we have a choice
between believing
00:21:32.29\00:21:33.62
something very positive
00:21:33.66\00:21:34.99
and believing
something negative,
00:21:35.02\00:21:36.36
and they're equally plausible,
believe the positive one.
00:21:36.39\00:21:39.36
So she believed that
God would spare her children
00:21:39.39\00:21:43.00
didn't turn out to be true,
00:21:43.03\00:21:44.37
but that didn't really
put her at a disadvantage.
00:21:44.40\00:21:46.40
Some people would say, "No,
00:21:46.43\00:21:47.77
believe the worst
00:21:47.80\00:21:49.14
because that
prepares you for the worst."
00:21:49.17\00:21:50.51
What I find is
people believe the worst
00:21:50.54\00:21:51.87
trying to prepare for the worse.
00:21:51.91\00:21:53.24
There's no end to the worst.
00:21:53.27\00:21:54.61
I feel like being ready
for God's will kind of like
00:21:54.64\00:21:57.15
when Jesus was asking,
00:21:57.18\00:21:58.51
you know, "Please take
this cup of suffering from Me,"
00:21:58.55\00:22:01.02
yeah, He eventually said...
00:22:01.05\00:22:03.32
What did He say?
Someone help me out here.
00:22:03.35\00:22:04.95
"Not My will but
Thy will be done."
00:22:04.99\00:22:06.62
Right, "Now My will
but Your will be done."
00:22:06.65\00:22:08.79
So I think
that's the safest place
00:22:08.82\00:22:10.43
to be as opposed to...
00:22:10.46\00:22:12.93
At least that's what
I found in my own life
00:22:12.96\00:22:14.36
when there's disappointment.
00:22:14.40\00:22:15.73
And I thought,
"This is the one thing
00:22:15.76\00:22:17.10
God would never
do and it happened."
00:22:17.13\00:22:18.60
So for me, that's my
safe place is just saying
00:22:18.63\00:22:21.10
let Your will be done
00:22:21.14\00:22:22.47
because I don't know what it is.
00:22:22.50\00:22:23.84
I think it's also
important to understand
00:22:23.87\00:22:25.24
that God is sovereign.
00:22:25.27\00:22:26.61
And so we may want
something or think,
00:22:26.64\00:22:28.94
"He's not going
to do that, you know,
00:22:28.98\00:22:30.85
He's only going to do
what He thinks like a handle.
00:22:30.88\00:22:32.85
Well, God I can't handle this."
00:22:32.88\00:22:34.68
But that's not up to us to...
00:22:34.72\00:22:36.05
That's not up to us.
00:22:36.08\00:22:37.42
We got to reason the other way
and say, "If God let it happen,
00:22:37.45\00:22:39.89
it must be that I can handle."
00:22:39.92\00:22:41.26
Exactly. Well,
where is God in it?
00:22:41.29\00:22:42.62
How many time have we prayed
00:22:42.66\00:22:44.33
and it didn't come
out the way we wanted?
00:22:44.36\00:22:45.69
Exactly.
00:22:45.73\00:22:47.06
You don't turn and run from God.
00:22:47.10\00:22:48.43
You say, "Okay,
You're in charge."
00:22:48.46\00:22:49.80
He gives you the strength.
00:22:49.83\00:22:51.17
CS Lewis said,
00:22:51.20\00:22:52.53
we shouldn't bring to
God what should be in us,
00:22:52.57\00:22:53.90
what ought to be in
us, but what is in us.
00:22:53.94\00:22:55.27
So she's bringing to God,
00:22:55.30\00:22:57.34
"I couldn't
imagine losing my children,
00:22:57.37\00:22:58.97
so you wouldn't do that."
00:22:59.01\00:23:00.34
But that didn't stop her
00:23:00.38\00:23:02.04
from staying connected
to God in very strong way
00:23:02.08\00:23:05.01
and trusting His promise.
00:23:05.05\00:23:06.41
In other words,
you can say, "God,
00:23:06.45\00:23:07.78
I think you might
have miscalculated,
00:23:07.82\00:23:09.15
but I'm going to stay with You
00:23:09.18\00:23:10.52
and find out
maybe You're right."
00:23:10.55\00:23:12.22
It wasn't a significant
that even on this program,
00:23:12.25\00:23:14.82
all these 20 years
later, there were still tears.
00:23:14.86\00:23:18.53
So somebody said that,
yeah, the grieving goes on,
00:23:18.56\00:23:22.80
so the pain will come back
periodically, and that's okay.
00:23:22.83\00:23:26.00
So it's an
unrealistic expectation
00:23:26.03\00:23:28.00
to think that all that
pain is just going to evaporate
00:23:28.04\00:23:29.94
and you'll be totally past that.
00:23:29.97\00:23:31.31
It's been said
that tears are a sign
00:23:31.34\00:23:32.67
that love was there.
00:23:32.71\00:23:34.04
That's exactly right.
00:23:34.08\00:23:35.41
So, she's not
going to stop loving
00:23:35.44\00:23:36.78
her husband and her children.
00:23:36.81\00:23:38.15
That's right, that's right.
00:23:38.18\00:23:39.51
Yeah, she's doing
life very well now,
00:23:39.55\00:23:40.88
but there are still times
00:23:40.92\00:23:42.25
when we feel the
intensity of the pain,
00:23:42.28\00:23:45.09
and we still are
able to function of life
00:23:45.12\00:23:48.19
and come to other people's side
00:23:48.22\00:23:49.96
and help them
through their pain.
00:23:49.99\00:23:51.33
Grieving with hope.
00:23:51.36\00:23:52.69
And yet we have that
hope. Like Christine said.
00:23:52.73\00:23:55.16
The Apostle Paul
said and Christine
00:23:55.20\00:23:56.67
has brought those
up a couple times,
00:23:56.70\00:23:58.03
grieving with hope.
00:23:58.07\00:23:59.40
Yes. Yes.
00:23:59.43\00:24:00.77
Wow.
00:24:00.80\00:24:02.14
One of the most kind of
scary shows was escaping
00:24:02.17\00:24:03.51
from the black
hole of depression.
00:24:03.54\00:24:05.61
And I added to the title,
00:24:05.64\00:24:06.98
all the other
things that Steve Walberg
00:24:07.01\00:24:08.48
was going through,
00:24:08.51\00:24:09.84
that was really kind of a
harrowing journey, wasn't it?
00:24:09.88\00:24:12.05
But he came out on
the other side of it.
00:24:12.08\00:24:13.95
Here's the strong
man, this evangelist,
00:24:13.98\00:24:16.12
you know, communicator,
00:24:16.15\00:24:17.72
and a leader,
and all of a sudden,
00:24:17.75\00:24:20.26
he stopped sleeping.
00:24:20.29\00:24:21.72
And then he
takes some medications,
00:24:21.76\00:24:24.09
and the medications
start to have side effects,
00:24:24.13\00:24:26.93
and there's this process,
00:24:26.96\00:24:29.10
and then he starts to
have anxiety and panic,
00:24:29.13\00:24:32.10
and he ends up
almost coming unglued.
00:24:32.13\00:24:34.30
I mean, he just
describes it, like he...
00:24:34.34\00:24:36.54
He's very honest about it,
00:24:36.57\00:24:37.91
I was amazed how honest he was.
00:24:37.94\00:24:39.31
He said he was broken. Yeah.
00:24:39.34\00:24:40.78
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:24:40.81\00:24:42.14
One more than that,
00:24:42.18\00:24:43.51
he was actually thinking about,
00:24:43.55\00:24:44.88
"I am dying."
00:24:44.91\00:24:46.25
Yeah, yeah. He
imagined being in a casket.
00:24:46.28\00:24:48.92
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:48.95\00:24:50.45
I was really touched by
the fact that, you know,
00:24:50.49\00:24:52.85
he's got a
reputation to protect an image
00:24:52.89\00:24:55.62
to kind of polish up.
00:24:55.66\00:24:57.23
And a lot of times,
00:24:57.26\00:24:58.59
when you become a public figure,
00:24:58.63\00:25:00.93
you become very image-conscious,
00:25:00.96\00:25:02.76
and donations are contingent
upon you being able to,
00:25:02.80\00:25:05.37
you know, all kinds of stuff,
00:25:05.40\00:25:06.74
it's all kind of ramifications
00:25:06.77\00:25:08.10
of letting your
image get tarnished,
00:25:08.14\00:25:09.47
but he's like
been very honest about.
00:25:09.50\00:25:11.67
And I don't think it's
hurt his ministry at all.
00:25:11.71\00:25:13.74
It's expanded.
00:25:13.78\00:25:15.11
I wonder how many of us,
00:25:15.14\00:25:16.48
if we would allow ourselves
00:25:16.51\00:25:17.91
to be who we
really are publicly,
00:25:17.95\00:25:20.85
well, he got the
place he couldn't hide it,
00:25:20.88\00:25:22.55
but you know...
Here's an opportunity.
00:25:22.58\00:25:24.75
A lot of people
are just seeing...
00:25:24.79\00:25:26.65
They want to know
who we are publicly.
00:25:26.69\00:25:28.12
So I know this is
not the program, but...
00:25:28.16\00:25:30.63
Yeah, we've been talking...
00:25:30.66\00:25:31.99
And we've been talking
about in future seasons
00:25:32.03\00:25:34.40
to have the
counselors themselves
00:25:34.43\00:25:35.90
become the guests.
00:25:35.93\00:25:37.40
How did we get into...
00:25:37.43\00:25:38.77
I'm just not ready for that yet.
00:25:38.80\00:25:40.50
But I think one
thing about Steve,
00:25:40.54\00:25:41.87
I noticed too, was,
00:25:41.90\00:25:44.94
you know, it's very
important to him to know
00:25:44.97\00:25:46.61
that we all believe in prayer.
00:25:46.64\00:25:47.98
I have a prayer in
discipleship ministry,
00:25:48.01\00:25:49.34
but sometimes when I'm training,
00:25:49.38\00:25:51.01
people get
disappointed when I say,
00:25:51.05\00:25:52.38
work with professionals,
00:25:52.41\00:25:53.75
work with
counselors, work with doctors.
00:25:53.78\00:25:55.62
And they go,
00:25:55.65\00:25:56.99
but then prayer
isn't all powerful.
00:25:57.02\00:25:58.35
No, prayer can lead you to it.
00:25:58.39\00:25:59.72
And so one of the things
00:25:59.75\00:26:01.09
that Steve is very
passionate about is a friend,
00:26:01.12\00:26:02.52
Kerry Gibson,
00:26:02.56\00:26:03.89
"I want you to go talk
to a doctor, Dr. Nedley,"
00:26:03.93\00:26:06.96
and that made
difference because prayer alone
00:26:07.00\00:26:09.60
would not have
been enough for him,
00:26:09.63\00:26:11.13
he was on these medications.
00:26:11.17\00:26:12.50
You know, you don't
pray for a broken leg,
00:26:12.53\00:26:13.87
you go have it set,
and he had a broken brain.
00:26:13.90\00:26:15.24
But you can pray too.
00:26:15.27\00:26:16.60
And so he went to a professional
00:26:16.64\00:26:17.97
who could do
professional blood tests,
00:26:18.01\00:26:19.34
get scientific evidence,
and what was in his blood...
00:26:19.37\00:26:21.44
And the brain is
the physical organ
00:26:21.48\00:26:23.28
than sometimes develops...
00:26:23.31\00:26:24.65
And then begin to withdraw
from those, get medications,
00:26:24.68\00:26:26.65
it would help him
withdrawing a healthier way,
00:26:26.68\00:26:29.08
and then give him supplements.
00:26:29.12\00:26:30.59
And prayer is important,
prayer led him to that place.
00:26:30.62\00:26:33.56
And it was part of it,
and counseling was part of it.
00:26:33.59\00:26:35.59
When I just read this morning,
00:26:35.62\00:26:36.96
and Mrs. White says that
faith is prayer with works.
00:26:36.99\00:26:41.23
So taking action, praying,
but also taking action...
00:26:41.26\00:26:43.77
And don't you think
like when we do counseling,
00:26:43.80\00:26:46.13
like sometimes you come
to a place with a person
00:26:46.17\00:26:47.94
where you're like,
00:26:47.97\00:26:49.30
you need more than what
counseling can offer you,
00:26:49.34\00:26:50.67
and it's good that
we're able to admit that,
00:26:50.71\00:26:53.01
and just say it is what it is.
00:26:53.04\00:26:54.38
Especially for
those more serious
00:26:54.41\00:26:55.74
psychological disorders,
00:26:55.78\00:26:57.11
I think, it's important
that medication can bring you
00:26:57.15\00:26:58.88
to a baseline where counseling
00:26:58.91\00:27:00.32
and therapy can
be more effective.
00:27:00.35\00:27:01.68
That's right.
00:27:01.72\00:27:03.05
So I often tell
my clients, you know,
00:27:03.08\00:27:04.42
pray without ceasing
and take your medication,
00:27:04.45\00:27:06.96
especially if that's
what's working for you,
00:27:06.99\00:27:08.76
that combination with
this depression, anxiety.
00:27:08.79\00:27:11.16
You know, the research says
00:27:11.19\00:27:12.53
that it's a combination
of medicine and prayer.
00:27:12.56\00:27:14.63
And definitely
psychotic disorders,
00:27:14.66\00:27:16.43
you can't even really expect
to treat those effectively
00:27:16.46\00:27:20.17
without some kind of
medical intervention.
00:27:20.20\00:27:22.20
And we need to see resources,
00:27:22.24\00:27:23.57
there's different
pieces of the same puzzle
00:27:23.61\00:27:25.77
as opposed to either or.
00:27:25.81\00:27:27.58
A lot of people get into
black and white either or.
00:27:27.61\00:27:29.98
Now this is complementing
each other working together.
00:27:30.01\00:27:32.51
You bring all of the resources
on a given problem, and then,
00:27:32.55\00:27:35.98
you know, you can
start to remove certain ones,
00:27:36.02\00:27:38.15
you know, and see
if there's still...
00:27:38.19\00:27:39.52
See what works for you.
00:27:39.55\00:27:40.89
And Steve's a good example
there because he's sharing
00:27:40.92\00:27:42.26
with friends, a
friend shares with him.
00:27:42.29\00:27:44.16
And then... Yeah.
00:27:44.19\00:27:45.53
Let me just plug here.
00:27:45.56\00:27:46.90
If we're on medication,
00:27:46.93\00:27:48.26
make sure that we're
under medical supervision.
00:27:48.30\00:27:49.73
Medical supervision.
00:27:49.76\00:27:51.10
Well, obviously,
we're very chatty today.
00:27:51.13\00:27:53.77
We enjoyed this
recap, it was good.
00:27:53.80\00:27:55.87
And it was kind of breakneck,
00:27:55.90\00:27:57.87
but join us for the next season
of A Multitude of Counselors.
00:27:57.91\00:28:01.68
May God bless you.
00:28:01.71\00:28:03.04
Amen.
00:28:03.08\00:28:04.41