Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
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We are so thankful
that you have returned
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for the second installment
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of "escape from the
black hole of depression."
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Or I should say part two.
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But we're calling it this point
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escape from the
black hole of depression,
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anxiety, insomnia, and
a bunch of other problems.
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This is the story
of Steve Wolhberg.
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He's shared his
descent into this black hole
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during the first part
and now he's going to share
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his ascent out
of the black hole.
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But he's put it all in
this nifty little book,
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just a little
pocket book type of thing
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that I assume people
can get off of your website
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from White Horse Media.
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So WhiteHorseMedia.com.
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Correct.
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You'll find this book
and whatever you forgot
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from this program,
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you can see in the
book and get a copy of that.
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It's called help
for the hopeless.
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Help for the hopeless.
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And you were indeed
hopeless, weren't you?
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You were just at
the end of your rope.
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I was.
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I have ever been at the
edge of my rope like I was.
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Yeah. As I went through this.
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We kind of went with you
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'cause we're all,
you know, counselors.
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So we're very empathic
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and we were feeling
the last time you talked.
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Let me introduce my panel
here, this is Paul Coneff.
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He's from Texas.
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He's a marriage
and family therapist,
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and a speaker, and an
author and etcetera, etcetera.
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This is Jean Wright,
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Dr. Jean Wright
from Philadelphia.
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He's a clinical
forensic psychologist,
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and an author, and
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
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This is Christina
Cecotto from Tennessee.
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She's a counselor
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and she's going to
be an author someday.
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And she knows a lot about
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the health
message and self care.
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And we're so glad,
each of you are here.
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And we also have Steve Wolhberg,
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the director of
White Horse Media,
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and the man behind the
story of help for the hopeless.
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So how did you get out
of the black hole, Steve?
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There's a great
text to start with.
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Okay, good.
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Psalm 50:15, there
were verses that I clung to
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in the midst of the darkest days
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that I've ever been in my life.
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Verse 15, Psalm 50:15 God says,
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"Call upon me in
the day of trouble,
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I will deliver you,
and you shall glorify Me."
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And, you know, as we kind
of recap the last program,
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I had a problem with sleeping,
insomnia, and in order to sleep
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because I don't do
well when I don't sleep,
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I started taking tylenol PM,
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and then worked my
way slowly to ambien,
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and then to other medications.
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Finally, the lorazepam,
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which was really
messing with my head.
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I was, became
addicted to it very quickly.
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Dr. Neil Nedley,
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I had a conversation
with them on the phone
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and told him that I was on
this medication and he said,
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"You've got to get
to Weimar right away,
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you need to be here."
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So I rerouted my life,
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and went to
Weimar for three weeks,
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and went through his depression
and anxiety recovery program.
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One of those days,
they took my blood,
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they did a blood test
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and when the blood
results came back from the lab,
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Dr. Nedley looked at
my blood and he said,
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"What you're
going through right now
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severe anxiety,
insomnia, etcetera.
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It's perfectly understandable
based on your brain chemistry."
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And he said,
"Your norepinephrine
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is 10 times higher than normal.
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Your serotonin and dopamine
activities are very low,
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you are an
accident waiting to happen.
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And then he looked at me,
and he smiled, and he said,
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"Don't worry we can fix this."
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And he said,
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"All your
anxiety, your insomnia"
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he said, "all this
is going to go away."
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And I just looked at him like,
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is this really
true, are you sure?
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And I hoped against hope.
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And he said,
"No, we can fix this."
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So I went through his
program with that focused
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on natural
remedies and the health,
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you know, health practices
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and then he
recommended supplements
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to adjust my brain
chemistry zinc B6, B12,
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he looked at my genetic makeup,
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said, "You're undermethylate."
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I didn't really understand that.
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But he said, "We need
to give you more B12."
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And so anyway to
make long story short,
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he took me off of the lorazepam.
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I went through a horrific
period of two weeks or so
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of withdrawals,
absolute nightmare,
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four nights in a
row without sleep.
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Finally, went back
home to North Idaho,
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still a basket case.
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And Dr. Nedley worked with
me to continue the supplements
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and then to mean me
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off of the
remaining sleep medications
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that I was on.
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And finally, after
about a month of being home,
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after about two weeks of
getting off the trazodone,
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which was the last
hurdle as far as medications go.
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One day, I woke up
and it was like a new day.
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So wait a minute, I
thought you stayed with him
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for the two weeks,
and an additional week?
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I went through
the 10-day program
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and then stayed
an additional week.
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Did you improve it
all while you were there?
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Not that I was aware of. Okay.
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So you were still
a mess when you left?
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I was still a mess.
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And I was still
on the medication.
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And I couldn't sleep
without taking trazodone.
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But you were off
of the lorazepam?
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Correct.
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And the worst of the withdrawals
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were behind me
when I left Weimar.
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You went home and
still struggling to sleep?
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That's right. I
still having sleep issues.
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But then when I got...
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But then little by
little things started happen.
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I went through a period
where for almost three months,
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I couldn't take a nap.
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I mean, I was exhausted.
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And I lay on my bed or my couch,
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and I could not go to sleep.
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So when I got home, one
day, I was able to take a nap.
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And I thought "God,
something is happening to me."
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And another day,
I was able to cry
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'cause I went
through about two months
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where I could not shed a tear.
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When you're anxious?
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And then I thought
something is happening.
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And there were these
little microsteps of improvement
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that encouraged me and told me
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that God was at work,
and my body was recovering.
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And then when I
finally got off the trazodone,
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and there were
two weeks after that,
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there were side
effects to getting off of that.
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You know, I had various
things that were happening,
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that were just bizarre
things when I kept thinking,
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we're making progress,
progress is being made...
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And you were
taking your supplements
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for some time?
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Yes, I was
taking the supplements
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that he'd recommended every day,
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religiously
getting off the medication.
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And then two weeks
after I got off the trazodone,
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after I went through
two weeks of side effects.
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One day I woke up
and I felt normal.
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And I was just shocked.
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After sleeping how long?
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I probably slept.
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I don't know, I don't remember
six or seven hours that night.
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Wasn't terrible? No.
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And so I was
beginning to sleep more.
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And one day I had
developed an appetite again,
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I started getting
hungry for my wife's cooking.
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And so one by one
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this little improvement started.
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And then when the cloud lifted
the next day, it came back.
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But I thought, "That's okay.
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We're making progress.
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This is not permanent."
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It's a positive
self talk? That's right.
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I was telling myself
that God is helping me
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based on the
promises of the Bible.
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And so then the
next day after that,
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I woke up in the
morning and the cloud was gone.
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It was a cloud.
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It was like just a dark,
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a dark sense of bleakness.
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And it lifted and
it hasn't come back.
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And so... Praise God.
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I just knew,
you know, it's like,
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somebody pushed a reset button.
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God pushed a reset button
and reset my brain chemistry,
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my life, and he gave
me my life, my life back.
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Now, were you doing
any lifestyle changes
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during this time?
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Oh, yeah, I was.
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Yeah, I mean, like I
said, the hot and cold therapy
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we have, it was winter in Idaho
when I came back after that.
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Let's see, was it?
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No, it wasn't, it
wasn't quite winter yet.
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But winter came shortly
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when I came back from
Weimar in a little while.
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And I have a hot
tub in my backyard.
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And when the snow fell,
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my daughter
Abby, my 10-year-old,
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we would go in the hot
tub, and then dive in the snow.
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And I texted to
Dr. Nedley and I said,
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"Here's our hydrotherapy."
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And he said, "Do
you really do that,
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you really dive in the snow."
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And I sent him a
picture of Abby in the snow.
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You know, they use
water therapy in Germany
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to treat depression?
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So, yes, the hot
and cold continued,
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the healthy diet continued,
the supplements continued.
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Dr. Nedley recommended
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a quite a bit of
flax for your brain...
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Exercise?
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And exercise,
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and certain kinds
of beans, you know.
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So we hit it from all
sides, from all sides.
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And ultimately, God
worked through everything,
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through the supplements,
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and through
getting off the medication.
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And eventually,
the cloud was gone.
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And I was able
to go back to work,
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I'm able now to write a book,
I'm able to be here at 3ABN,
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I'm able to
still travel and speak.
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I've learned that
I've got to slow down.
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I can't, I don't want to
get myself back into that hole.
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I want to, you
know, protect myself.
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Did they tell you to
burn the accelerator?
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Yes, that was one of the things
they did that there were 20,
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there were 20-20 of us
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that were having
all kinds of problems.
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You know, there was,
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people were a mess
when they got there.
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And you could see the
improvement taking place.
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One gal was just,
she was like a zombie.
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And after 10 days,
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she was
laughing, she was smiling.
00:09:34.37\00:09:36.24
And we all just
looked at her like,
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"Wow, praise God, this works."
00:09:37.67\00:09:39.84
So even though,
00:09:39.87\00:09:41.21
even though I wasn't
completely restored yet,
00:09:41.24\00:09:43.65
I had reason for hope.
00:09:43.68\00:09:45.61
And so I've done my best
to keep with the program,
00:09:45.65\00:09:49.98
continue to trust the Lord.
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When I was at Weimar,
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I confessed
everything I could think of,
00:09:52.75\00:09:54.26
cleared my
conscious as much as I could,
00:09:54.29\00:09:56.76
and continue to
trust Him, trust His love,
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trust, His grace,
trust that He cared about me,
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and that He was going to help me
00:10:02.63\00:10:03.97
and that He was not only
going to get me through this,
00:10:04.00\00:10:05.70
but then He was going to
use me to help other people
00:10:05.73\00:10:08.30
who are going
through similar things.
00:10:08.34\00:10:09.80
So that's what
this is all about.
00:10:09.84\00:10:11.17
Right.
00:10:11.21\00:10:12.54
And, you know,
I'm thinking Jesus
00:10:12.57\00:10:14.51
suffered and died, didn't die.
00:10:14.54\00:10:16.18
The gospel said, "He suffered,
died, and rose from the dead."
00:10:16.21\00:10:18.21
And He was in
Gethsemane overwhelmed
00:10:18.25\00:10:20.02
with sorrow to
the point of death.
00:10:20.05\00:10:21.58
So He has been to,
00:10:21.62\00:10:23.25
we're not saying He's depressed,
00:10:23.28\00:10:24.62
we're saying He was overwhelmed
with the attacks of the enemy.
00:10:24.65\00:10:26.59
And that trusted in His Father.
00:10:26.62\00:10:28.26
And because He got that victory,
00:10:28.29\00:10:29.62
that's where He gets the power
00:10:29.66\00:10:30.99
to make His
promises true in your life.
00:10:31.03\00:10:32.36
That's right.
00:10:32.39\00:10:33.73
You know, at the end of
the chapter on Gethsemane,
00:10:33.76\00:10:35.10
in the book, The Desire of Ages.
00:10:35.13\00:10:36.70
After he prayed
that prayer three times.
00:10:36.73\00:10:38.40
And finally, He, you know,
00:10:38.43\00:10:39.80
was resolved
fully to go forward.
00:10:39.83\00:10:42.70
It says in the
book Desire of Ages,
00:10:42.74\00:10:44.74
that His depression and
discouragement left Him.
00:10:44.77\00:10:48.44
And I read that
and that showed me that
00:10:48.48\00:10:50.45
Jesus experienced depression
in the Garden of Gethsemane,
00:10:50.48\00:10:55.05
it was a nightmare for Him
that will never understand.
00:10:55.08\00:10:57.35
He felt that blackness...
00:10:57.39\00:10:58.72
That's right.
00:10:58.75\00:11:00.22
The devil's telling Him,
00:11:00.26\00:11:01.59
there's no light at
the end of the tunnel.
00:11:01.62\00:11:02.96
You've gone too far,
You'll be separated forever.
00:11:02.99\00:11:04.73
And again, on
the cross, you know,
00:11:04.76\00:11:06.13
He would foretells us
that He can identify with us,
00:11:06.16\00:11:08.90
He sympathize, why?
00:11:08.93\00:11:10.27
Because He's
been tempted like us,
00:11:10.30\00:11:11.80
in all points yet without sin.
00:11:11.83\00:11:13.84
And so I'm wondering, you know,
00:11:13.87\00:11:15.67
that because He went through it,
00:11:15.70\00:11:17.34
He can be a compassionate,
00:11:17.37\00:11:18.71
sensitive
Savior who understands.
00:11:18.74\00:11:21.21
He walked in your
shoes, got the victory,
00:11:21.24\00:11:23.45
and now He has a power
00:11:23.48\00:11:24.81
to bring you out of it, brother.
00:11:24.85\00:11:26.18
So I'm wondering,
00:11:26.21\00:11:27.78
what was it like for you now
00:11:27.82\00:11:29.45
to come on the out on
the other side of this
00:11:29.48\00:11:31.05
when people talk to you, yeah,
I'm struggling with depression,
00:11:31.09\00:11:32.92
with anger,
00:11:32.95\00:11:34.29
because a lot of
times in the church,
00:11:34.32\00:11:36.12
a typical response, I
travel and do a lot of training,
00:11:36.16\00:11:38.73
the typical response
I hear from people is,
00:11:38.76\00:11:40.56
"Well if you pray
more, if you try harder,
00:11:40.60\00:11:42.06
if you do more."
00:11:42.10\00:11:43.43
So the emphasis
on my performance,
00:11:43.47\00:11:45.13
then they feel
judged, they feel unsafe,
00:11:45.17\00:11:46.97
and they don't share.
00:11:47.00\00:11:48.34
So I'm wondering when you go
through a dark time like this,
00:11:48.37\00:11:50.81
and God brings you
out of it by His grace,
00:11:50.84\00:11:52.67
by all the different
resources you've used.
00:11:52.71\00:11:55.08
How do you hear
people differently,
00:11:55.11\00:11:57.08
what's different now
when people call you,
00:11:57.11\00:11:58.95
talk to you, when you're out
in the front lines of ministry?
00:11:58.98\00:12:02.25
Talking about their
brokenness, their struggles?
00:12:02.28\00:12:03.62
Well, I can
certainly relate to them.
00:12:03.65\00:12:07.06
And my compassion, if
you want to call that,
00:12:07.09\00:12:10.73
or my ability to
empathize has definitely grown.
00:12:10.76\00:12:15.43
After I got through this door
00:12:15.46\00:12:17.10
unexpectedly opened
in my home church for me
00:12:17.13\00:12:19.23
to take the pulpit
and I shared this story.
00:12:19.27\00:12:23.47
And the response
was so phenomenal.
00:12:23.51\00:12:26.04
I never
expected, we recorded it,
00:12:26.07\00:12:28.11
put it on AudioVerse,
people can listen to it online,
00:12:28.14\00:12:31.35
and the responses
that we have received
00:12:31.38\00:12:33.05
from so many
00:12:33.08\00:12:34.42
that are
struggling with the same thing
00:12:34.45\00:12:36.25
that just told me
00:12:36.28\00:12:37.62
there's a lot
of people out there
00:12:37.65\00:12:38.99
that are struggling with this.
00:12:39.02\00:12:40.36
That's why we want to, you know,
00:12:40.39\00:12:41.72
that's why I put
the book together,
00:12:41.76\00:12:43.09
want to try to
provide the resources,
00:12:43.12\00:12:44.46
and all of this
has just increased
00:12:44.49\00:12:46.29
my interest in
helping other people
00:12:46.33\00:12:49.66
that are going
through what I'm going through
00:12:49.70\00:12:51.50
or was going through.
00:12:51.53\00:12:52.87
One lady I talked to on
the phone, she was crying.
00:12:52.90\00:12:54.84
And she just said,
00:12:54.87\00:12:56.20
"I didn't sleep
at all last night,
00:12:56.24\00:12:57.61
you know, I've got
two kids, what do I do?"
00:12:57.64\00:13:00.41
And so I
connected her to Dr. Nedley,
00:13:00.44\00:13:02.21
and I've been praying for
her, I still know her name,
00:13:02.24\00:13:04.25
I won't mention her name.
00:13:04.28\00:13:05.61
But so, you know, I just...
00:13:05.65\00:13:09.02
You know like the
old story of the Grinch
00:13:09.05\00:13:11.45
who stole Christmas, you know,
his heart enlarged three times.
00:13:11.49\00:13:14.99
And my heart has enlarged
00:13:15.02\00:13:16.36
and I feel for people
that are going through
00:13:16.39\00:13:19.09
what I went through,
and I want to help them.
00:13:19.13\00:13:21.90
I want to throw in
something really quick here.
00:13:21.93\00:13:23.87
And then I know, I
want you to talk about
00:13:23.90\00:13:25.23
trauma-informed church.
00:13:25.27\00:13:26.60
But you mentioned Dr. Nedley's
program, which is excellent.
00:13:26.63\00:13:30.17
I refer clients
there all the time.
00:13:30.21\00:13:31.77
Another option
is abide counseling.
00:13:31.81\00:13:34.18
Abidecounseling.com
00:13:34.21\00:13:36.01
has a whole
network of counselors
00:13:36.04\00:13:39.45
that come from a
biblical standpoint
00:13:39.48\00:13:40.92
that do telephone and
Skype work with people,
00:13:40.95\00:13:44.62
either coaching or counseling,
depending on the situation.
00:13:44.65\00:13:48.26
That would be, if they don't
have a severe enough problem
00:13:48.29\00:13:50.79
to sign up for
Dr. Nedley's program,
00:13:50.83\00:13:52.39
that would be another option.
00:13:52.43\00:13:53.76
They don't have the
financial resources.
00:13:53.80\00:13:55.40
Oh, they don't have
the financial resources
00:13:55.43\00:13:56.77
to do that,
00:13:56.80\00:13:58.13
so counseling or coaching
00:13:58.17\00:13:59.50
can be
significantly less expensive.
00:13:59.53\00:14:00.87
So that'd be another thing.
00:14:00.90\00:14:02.67
Because I'm seeing you like,
00:14:02.70\00:14:04.31
you get this
thing out on AudioVerse
00:14:04.34\00:14:05.67
and everybody's calling you,
00:14:05.71\00:14:07.04
eventually you're
going to get overwhelmed.
00:14:07.08\00:14:08.41
No, that's why we direct people
00:14:08.44\00:14:10.55
in the little booklet
to Dr. Nedley's program.
00:14:10.58\00:14:14.45
And then he has a workbook,
he has a DVD, he has a clinic,
00:14:14.48\00:14:17.42
there's a phone number
there, people can call,
00:14:17.45\00:14:19.55
and get counseling.
00:14:19.59\00:14:21.16
And so we try to hit
it in many different ways.
00:14:21.19\00:14:23.43
And I just can't
praise the Lord enough
00:14:23.46\00:14:26.46
for what that
program did for me.
00:14:26.49\00:14:27.83
But, you know, whether
people can go to Weimar or not,
00:14:27.86\00:14:30.07
one of the overriding messages
that I've learned is that
00:14:30.10\00:14:33.50
whatever you're going through,
God can get you out of it.
00:14:33.54\00:14:36.71
And don't go
through it alone. Yeah.
00:14:36.74\00:14:38.41
Don't try and get just
willpower through our own.
00:14:38.44\00:14:41.88
So, Jean was talking
about trauma-informed church,
00:14:41.91\00:14:44.88
and I love that.
00:14:44.91\00:14:46.55
I love that label.
00:14:46.58\00:14:47.92
Can you tell us
a little about that
00:14:47.95\00:14:49.28
because I think it
fits this story very well?
00:14:49.32\00:14:51.35
Yes, kind of where
Paul was hitting on
00:14:51.39\00:14:52.89
when he was talking
about people saying,
00:14:52.92\00:14:54.32
"You just need to pray more,
00:14:54.36\00:14:55.82
or people unintentionally
question your faith,
00:14:55.86\00:14:58.46
you know, they mean well,
00:14:58.49\00:15:00.20
but it really talks
about training a congregation
00:15:00.23\00:15:03.57
and I usually try to start
with the leaders in the church,
00:15:03.60\00:15:05.80
the clergy,
deacon, the deaconesses,
00:15:05.83\00:15:07.64
whoever has a
leadership position,
00:15:07.67\00:15:09.37
and helping them go through
trauma-informed training.
00:15:09.40\00:15:11.81
So they
understand what trauma is
00:15:11.84\00:15:14.14
that they understand
how it impacts people,
00:15:14.18\00:15:16.38
that they understand
how to address people,
00:15:16.41\00:15:18.01
something as simple as
not asking the question,
00:15:18.05\00:15:21.68
what's wrong with you?
00:15:21.72\00:15:23.28
That's a terrible question.
00:15:23.32\00:15:24.95
It's judgmental.
00:15:24.99\00:15:26.32
It puts people in
a difficult position
00:15:26.35\00:15:28.09
to question who
they are, the question...
00:15:28.12\00:15:29.76
So someone's having
anxiety, and they tell someone,
00:15:29.79\00:15:32.09
"I'm really having some
struggles with anxiety."
00:15:32.13\00:15:33.73
And the person says,
"What's wrong with you?"
00:15:33.76\00:15:35.46
Yeah, the
question you should ask,
00:15:35.50\00:15:37.17
"Is what happened to you?"
00:15:37.20\00:15:39.57
And what Steve
described in the first program
00:15:39.60\00:15:42.10
and this program speaks
to what happened to him.
00:15:42.14\00:15:44.84
And the really
important piece is,
00:15:44.87\00:15:46.94
if you have a
trauma-informed congregation,
00:15:46.98\00:15:49.38
you have much more education.
00:15:49.41\00:15:51.51
And I'm not talking about
necessarily book knowledge,
00:15:51.55\00:15:53.21
I'm talking about
experiential knowledge
00:15:53.25\00:15:55.28
about how to be a
help, how to be a comfort,
00:15:55.32\00:15:58.79
how not to traumatize people
by questioning their faith,
00:15:58.82\00:16:02.12
questioning their prayer
life, questioning their class.
00:16:02.16\00:16:03.93
So you're asking
more about their story?
00:16:03.96\00:16:05.33
Yes.
00:16:05.36\00:16:06.70
And, you know, in Philadelphia,
00:16:06.73\00:16:08.06
we teach people how
to tell their story,
00:16:08.10\00:16:09.46
which is an essential piece too
00:16:09.50\00:16:11.37
because sometimes a
person can tell the story
00:16:11.40\00:16:13.10
and traumatize folks.
00:16:13.13\00:16:14.64
But if you can tell a person
00:16:14.67\00:16:16.04
how to hit the
essential parts of their story,
00:16:16.07\00:16:18.24
so that it's a benefit,
then you have what Steve has,
00:16:18.27\00:16:21.18
which is the ability
to help other people heal
00:16:21.21\00:16:24.35
because of the
healing that he's experienced.
00:16:24.38\00:16:26.11
Well, I think is,
we need to be careful
00:16:26.15\00:16:27.85
about not saying we necessarily,
00:16:27.88\00:16:29.85
but anyone who's struggling,
00:16:29.88\00:16:31.32
you want to reach out
to someone you can trust.
00:16:31.35\00:16:33.15
I mean, not everybody's
going be able to provide
00:16:33.19\00:16:36.36
what that person needs.
00:16:36.39\00:16:37.73
And everyone is not equipped.
00:16:37.76\00:16:39.09
So how do we keep
safe people in the church?
00:16:39.13\00:16:40.46
Right.
00:16:40.50\00:16:41.83
We need to
definitely focus on that.
00:16:41.86\00:16:43.20
But what the Bible
actually talks about
00:16:43.23\00:16:44.57
leaning on the strong.
00:16:44.60\00:16:45.93
And so there are some
people who are too weak
00:16:45.97\00:16:48.24
to actually be
able to hear your story.
00:16:48.27\00:16:50.14
And so being able to identify,
00:16:50.17\00:16:51.51
okay, who is that
person that I know
00:16:51.54\00:16:52.87
is going to be compassionate
and empathize with me,
00:16:52.91\00:16:55.31
as opposed to say,
00:16:55.34\00:16:56.68
"Oh, you know, what's
wrong with your faith?
00:16:56.71\00:16:58.05
What's wrong with
your relationship with God?
00:16:58.08\00:16:59.41
Let's, talk about that."
00:16:59.45\00:17:01.08
Did you run into that,
Steve, where people were like,
00:17:01.12\00:17:03.45
they couldn't handle you
being anything but Superman?
00:17:03.49\00:17:07.19
No, no.
00:17:07.22\00:17:08.56
No. Praise God.
00:17:08.59\00:17:09.92
Not at Weimar.
00:17:09.96\00:17:11.29
The people all around me
were very, very sympathetic.
00:17:11.33\00:17:13.33
The staff was wonderful.
00:17:13.36\00:17:15.30
What about before Weimar though?
00:17:15.33\00:17:16.67
I'm talking
about people that...?
00:17:16.70\00:17:18.03
In the church?
00:17:18.07\00:17:19.40
Yeah, a lot of them didn't know
00:17:19.43\00:17:20.77
because I didn't
explain this to them.
00:17:20.80\00:17:22.37
And when I
finally told my stories,
00:17:22.40\00:17:24.27
people in the church
knew that something was wrong.
00:17:24.31\00:17:26.27
And a lot of them
were praying for me.
00:17:26.31\00:17:27.64
Yeah.
00:17:27.68\00:17:29.01
But when I finally
stood up one morning in church
00:17:29.04\00:17:30.71
during the church
service and gave my talk,
00:17:30.75\00:17:32.98
they really
didn't know the details.
00:17:33.01\00:17:35.22
Would it have helped you think
00:17:35.25\00:17:36.58
if there had been an
environment in church
00:17:36.62\00:17:38.79
where people could
hear each other out on that?
00:17:38.82\00:17:40.62
Or would you
still not have shared?
00:17:40.66\00:17:42.49
I just, you know, I don't know.
00:17:42.52\00:17:43.86
I mean, I've worked
with a couple of physicians
00:17:43.89\00:17:45.89
that were very
wonderful people that, you know,
00:17:45.93\00:17:48.70
recommended on
a temporary basis,
00:17:48.73\00:17:50.30
these medications, you know,
I don't think they, you know...
00:17:50.33\00:17:56.30
It was, it was
Dr. Nedley's program.
00:17:56.34\00:17:58.54
It was the blood work,
00:17:58.57\00:18:00.28
and it was him
seeing my brain chemistry,
00:18:00.31\00:18:03.75
and
recommending the supplements,
00:18:03.78\00:18:05.31
and then getting
me off the medication.
00:18:05.35\00:18:07.32
I think that's
what I really needed.
00:18:07.35\00:18:09.95
And so for me, just to
have a sympathetic ear,
00:18:09.98\00:18:13.09
I think that would
have been wonderful.
00:18:13.12\00:18:15.09
But I don't think it
would have solved my problem.
00:18:15.12\00:18:17.03
I needed professional help,
00:18:17.06\00:18:19.03
and the professional
help that he offered...
00:18:19.06\00:18:21.16
But a friend that
actually you said though,
00:18:21.20\00:18:22.73
you reached out to
somebody and they said...
00:18:22.76\00:18:24.63
Yes, that was a part of it.
00:18:24.67\00:18:26.00
That was part of
it. He said what?
00:18:26.03\00:18:27.37
Because when
Nathan picked me up...
00:18:27.40\00:18:28.97
And when Gary Gibbs
when you talk to him,
00:18:29.00\00:18:31.17
Gary said, you should
talk to Dr. Nedley, right?
00:18:31.21\00:18:32.61
That's right. Yes,
that's what Gary said.
00:18:32.64\00:18:34.24
And the friend
that I had at Nathan,
00:18:34.28\00:18:36.88
when Nathan pick me up
and drove me to the institute.
00:18:36.91\00:18:39.95
When I first got
there and told me
00:18:39.98\00:18:41.35
that he had a similar story.
00:18:41.38\00:18:42.95
I mean, him sharing with
me and that encouraging ear
00:18:42.98\00:18:46.52
and that he could relate to me.
00:18:46.55\00:18:48.46
Someone who is competent.
00:18:48.49\00:18:49.82
I mean, yes, I mean,
that really did help me
00:18:49.86\00:18:52.39
to give me hope that
this program can work.
00:18:52.43\00:18:56.23
And that God can
get me out of this
00:18:56.26\00:18:57.63
because He brought
Nathan out, He can bring me out.
00:18:57.67\00:18:59.83
And then a lot
of Dr. Nedley staff
00:18:59.87\00:19:02.50
are people that
used to be patients,
00:19:02.54\00:19:04.57
they've been through
this, and they've come through,
00:19:04.61\00:19:06.94
so they're there
to encourage people.
00:19:06.98\00:19:08.48
So people that have
been through, it's like me,
00:19:08.51\00:19:10.95
I can now
encourage somebody else
00:19:10.98\00:19:13.15
that I've been there
and God brought me through,
00:19:13.18\00:19:16.79
and He can help you.
00:19:16.82\00:19:18.15
So there's
definitely a huge place
00:19:18.19\00:19:20.52
for the sympathetic ear
and the shoulder to cry on,
00:19:20.56\00:19:23.19
and somebody to tell you that,
you know, there's hope for you.
00:19:23.22\00:19:26.03
But I still, I feel
like the professionalism...
00:19:26.06\00:19:29.43
You had a brain issue?
00:19:29.46\00:19:30.90
And I had a brain issue.
00:19:30.93\00:19:32.27
Doesn't have to be either, Paul.
00:19:32.30\00:19:33.64
I think part of an expert there.
00:19:33.67\00:19:36.20
But I would say is,
00:19:36.24\00:19:37.87
I think part of our wisdom
and being a safe community
00:19:37.91\00:19:40.68
and listening is
to know what we can do
00:19:40.71\00:19:42.28
and what we can't do.
00:19:42.31\00:19:43.65
And so when someone
says, "Hey, I'm listening,
00:19:43.68\00:19:46.08
I'm hearing and you
need professional help.
00:19:46.11\00:19:48.45
That is something that I think
00:19:48.48\00:19:49.82
the church needs to be
aware of that we don't turn,
00:19:49.85\00:19:52.45
we don't wave magic wands.
00:19:52.49\00:19:53.82
That's right.
00:19:53.86\00:19:55.19
Just to tell me, I'm
going to pray for you.
00:19:55.22\00:19:57.59
I mean, that's
very, very valuable.
00:19:57.63\00:20:00.00
But I needed...
00:20:00.03\00:20:02.13
We need to help people
get the help they need.
00:20:02.16\00:20:04.73
I did.
00:20:04.77\00:20:06.10
We need prayer and action.
00:20:06.13\00:20:07.47
I can't avoid that fact
00:20:07.50\00:20:09.04
that God led me there
to help me with issues
00:20:09.07\00:20:13.48
that other people just
really didn't understand.
00:20:13.51\00:20:15.81
Didn't have the ability.
00:20:15.84\00:20:17.18
But one thing that
Steve did was he applied
00:20:17.21\00:20:19.28
the eight laws of
health, even after Weimar.
00:20:19.31\00:20:21.92
And so he took action.
00:20:21.95\00:20:23.42
And once he had the
education as to what to do
00:20:23.45\00:20:26.52
to address his
issue, he then took action.
00:20:26.55\00:20:29.16
You're talking about self care?
00:20:29.19\00:20:30.53
Self care, essentially,
the eight laws of health.
00:20:30.56\00:20:32.13
And we were talking a little bit
00:20:32.16\00:20:35.50
before this program started,
00:20:35.53\00:20:37.40
and we were talking
about what self care is,
00:20:37.43\00:20:40.34
and my definition
differs just a little bit.
00:20:40.37\00:20:42.20
Self care, essentially, is
just taking care of yourself,
00:20:42.24\00:20:44.94
making sure
you're pacing yourself,
00:20:44.97\00:20:47.24
making sure you're
getting that down time.
00:20:47.28\00:20:50.15
In fact, one of the secrets
to success in a Christian walk
00:20:50.18\00:20:53.85
according to Ellen White is that
00:20:53.88\00:20:55.22
we take time for
ourselves, time to pray,
00:20:55.25\00:20:57.99
time to think, slowing down.
00:20:58.02\00:21:01.06
And Jesus did that.
00:21:01.09\00:21:02.42
He said, "Hey, 5,000 people,
00:21:02.46\00:21:03.79
I'm going to go over on
the other side of the lake,
00:21:03.83\00:21:05.19
and I'm going to take
some time for Myself."
00:21:05.23\00:21:06.76
Even Jesus did it.
00:21:06.80\00:21:08.13
And so many people, especially
Christians feel guilty
00:21:08.16\00:21:11.00
to take time for themselves.
00:21:11.03\00:21:12.87
So self care, you know,
doing the eight laws of health,
00:21:12.90\00:21:17.61
making sure you
take care of yourself,
00:21:17.64\00:21:19.07
and Jesus did
not burn Himself out.
00:21:19.11\00:21:21.78
Well, He really did
work very, very hard.
00:21:21.81\00:21:24.91
But if we aren't
taking care of our bodies,
00:21:24.95\00:21:26.95
our temple where He resides,
00:21:26.98\00:21:28.98
then we can't be an
instrument for the Lord.
00:21:29.02\00:21:31.85
There's guilt sometimes
00:21:31.89\00:21:33.39
associated with
taking time for ourselves.
00:21:33.42\00:21:35.56
Would you say that
before this crisis,
00:21:35.59\00:21:37.73
you had some of that or no?
00:21:37.76\00:21:39.53
Probably. But...
00:21:39.56\00:21:40.90
Or do you have it now?
00:21:40.93\00:21:42.26
You know, I like to exercise
00:21:42.30\00:21:43.63
and I've always known
that I need to exercise.
00:21:43.67\00:21:45.57
But now after being through this
00:21:45.60\00:21:47.74
and burning the accelerator,
I feel even stronger,
00:21:47.77\00:21:51.71
that taking time in my garden
and in my orchard and working,
00:21:51.74\00:21:56.34
you know, outside is
exactly what I needed.
00:21:56.38\00:21:59.85
Do you have the
guilt associated with that
00:21:59.88\00:22:01.75
that you did at one time,
00:22:01.78\00:22:03.32
or did you not,
or you passed that?
00:22:03.35\00:22:05.05
Well, it's a
balancing act, because I mean,
00:22:05.09\00:22:06.82
I would like to
spend a week in the garden.
00:22:06.86\00:22:09.49
Spend a whole week.
00:22:09.52\00:22:10.86
Once you get out
there, it's like...
00:22:10.89\00:22:12.23
And I do have bills to
pay and I do have a ministry.
00:22:12.26\00:22:15.10
And so, you know,
life is a balancing act
00:22:15.13\00:22:17.23
between, for me it's family,
00:22:17.27\00:22:18.93
yard, garden,
ministry, traveling,
00:22:18.97\00:22:21.40
and I have to try to
live a balanced life.
00:22:21.44\00:22:24.81
And that's what God wants.
00:22:24.84\00:22:26.31
This is a little technical,
00:22:26.34\00:22:27.68
but you could put
filters on your screen
00:22:27.71\00:22:30.11
that make it less
offensive to your brain,
00:22:30.15\00:22:32.41
so to speak,
there's one called flux,
00:22:32.45\00:22:34.05
have you used that?
00:22:34.08\00:22:35.42
Yes, I have heard about that.
And we need to look into that.
00:22:35.45\00:22:36.79
It helps...
00:22:36.82\00:22:38.15
So you can even take on like
people even take yellow glasses
00:22:38.19\00:22:41.22
that filter out
the ultraviolet...
00:22:41.26\00:22:42.92
I don't know, whatever.
00:22:42.96\00:22:44.29
And you can do that, they
put them on a couple hours
00:22:44.33\00:22:46.56
before they go to bed
and it helps their brain
00:22:46.59\00:22:47.93
get ready to sleep.
00:22:47.96\00:22:49.30
Yeah, I don't remember
if it's the first program
00:22:49.33\00:22:50.67
or this program
where I mentioned that
00:22:50.70\00:22:52.03
Dr. Nedley believes that
00:22:52.07\00:22:53.87
spending too much time in
front of a computer screen
00:22:53.90\00:22:56.37
was a contributing
factor in all of this.
00:22:56.40\00:22:58.77
So that's a good suggestion.
00:22:58.81\00:23:00.91
So you're not thinking
that there was any kind of like,
00:23:00.94\00:23:03.41
baseline anxiety, I've
got to conquer the world
00:23:03.45\00:23:06.41
kind of, you know,
belief system going on,
00:23:06.45\00:23:09.42
there was nothing like
that pushing you right there.
00:23:09.45\00:23:11.19
Well, like I said,
I'm a type A personality
00:23:11.22\00:23:12.89
and, you know,
the high achiever,
00:23:12.92\00:23:17.13
underneath the high
achiever in my own life,
00:23:17.16\00:23:20.50
I've recognized
the insidiousness
00:23:20.53\00:23:22.86
and the all
pervasiveness of pride.
00:23:22.90\00:23:26.63
That is, it just goes back to,
00:23:26.67\00:23:29.77
ultimately to
Lucifer, who exalted himself.
00:23:29.80\00:23:32.81
And I have to keep reminding
myself, you know, biblically,
00:23:32.84\00:23:37.15
it's not of works,
lest any man should boast,
00:23:37.18\00:23:40.48
we're saved by grace
and, all of, you know,
00:23:40.52\00:23:43.49
achieving is not
going to earn anything,
00:23:43.52\00:23:46.25
that it's the grace of Jesus,
00:23:46.29\00:23:48.66
and the cross and
His merits, and His love.
00:23:48.69\00:23:51.99
And so, you know, this,
00:23:52.03\00:23:53.36
this is part of the
spiritual battle too
00:23:53.40\00:23:55.16
because what, I mean, why
did I push myself so hard?
00:23:55.20\00:23:57.60
Were you more tempted to
trust in your own achievements
00:23:57.63\00:24:00.87
before this crisis,
00:24:00.90\00:24:02.50
and less inclined
to do that afterward?
00:24:02.54\00:24:06.78
I don't know if that...
00:24:06.81\00:24:08.31
I think that I'm more aware,
and it's an ongoing, you know,
00:24:08.34\00:24:12.05
sanctification is
an ongoing process,
00:24:12.08\00:24:14.05
and you continue and
this has been a burden
00:24:14.08\00:24:17.69
and the conviction
of mine for a long time,
00:24:17.72\00:24:19.79
that the battle
between pride and humility
00:24:19.82\00:24:22.09
is very, very real.
00:24:22.12\00:24:24.03
And God has taught me,
"You know, learn of Me,
00:24:24.06\00:24:26.90
I am meek and lowly in heart,
00:24:26.93\00:24:28.33
and you will find
rest for your soul."
00:24:28.36\00:24:30.53
So there's rest in humility.
00:24:30.57\00:24:33.23
There's a rest in
trusting in Him and not in me.
00:24:33.27\00:24:36.64
And that's an ongoing lesson.
00:24:36.67\00:24:38.21
And I think that this struggle
has deepened the conviction
00:24:38.24\00:24:42.81
that He's in charge, not me,
00:24:42.84\00:24:44.61
take time for
yourself, rest, relax.
00:24:44.65\00:24:47.25
Don't get yourself
into the hole again.
00:24:47.28\00:24:48.62
You deepened your ability
00:24:48.65\00:24:49.98
to rest in His
righteousness and His merits.
00:24:50.02\00:24:51.65
Yes. And depend on Him.
00:24:51.69\00:24:53.02
Yeah.
00:24:53.05\00:24:54.39
It's not that you
didn't know that before.
00:24:54.42\00:24:55.76
You could preach
sermons on it before.
00:24:55.79\00:24:57.23
But you have
been made more capable
00:24:57.26\00:25:00.30
of actually putting it
00:25:00.33\00:25:01.80
to practice the deepest
parts of your inner being.
00:25:01.83\00:25:05.20
Well, and this is consistent
00:25:05.23\00:25:06.63
with what we
learned in the scripture,
00:25:06.67\00:25:08.00
the disciples
walking with Jesus,
00:25:08.04\00:25:09.64
different leaders
in the Old Testament,
00:25:09.67\00:25:11.01
New Testament,
they're telling their stories
00:25:11.04\00:25:13.68
of what were
their learning curves.
00:25:13.71\00:25:16.48
It wasn't just
everyday is better with Jesus,
00:25:16.51\00:25:18.51
did better the day before,
I go from victory to victory.
00:25:18.55\00:25:21.32
What we see in the Bible is...
00:25:21.35\00:25:22.68
But we like that
song. Yeah, we like that.
00:25:22.72\00:25:24.52
It's not biblical,
but it's a nice song.
00:25:24.55\00:25:27.16
You know, if you
get in an airplane,
00:25:27.19\00:25:28.69
they tell you, if
an oxygen mask falls,
00:25:28.72\00:25:30.06
you put it on you
or your child first?
00:25:30.09\00:25:32.56
Yourself. Yourself first.
00:25:32.59\00:25:34.36
But we say Jesus' joy,
you know, Jesus, others first.
00:25:34.40\00:25:38.17
If we don't do self care,
we can't be there for people.
00:25:38.20\00:25:41.40
And I look at the scripture
00:25:41.44\00:25:42.77
as the stories of the disciples,
00:25:42.80\00:25:44.81
the stories in the gospels
00:25:44.84\00:25:46.34
are the disciples
telling themselves,
00:25:46.37\00:25:47.81
how they missed the main message
00:25:47.84\00:25:49.18
at every step of the
way before the cross.
00:25:49.21\00:25:51.45
So there's this honesty,
00:25:51.48\00:25:52.81
there's this
authenticity they have
00:25:52.85\00:25:54.88
of not beating
themselves up at saying,
00:25:54.92\00:25:56.28
"Here's where I
was, here's where I am,
00:25:56.32\00:25:58.32
here's where God's bringing me."
00:25:58.35\00:26:00.16
Bring you
sanctification to use that word.
00:26:00.19\00:26:01.66
Exactly.
00:26:01.69\00:26:03.02
And if I can be
honest with people about
00:26:03.06\00:26:04.56
where I am in my
journey, and how I'm,
00:26:04.59\00:26:06.39
God's growing me,
00:26:06.43\00:26:07.90
that to me is more
encouraging to people
00:26:07.93\00:26:09.43
than to tell people
I have it all together.
00:26:09.46\00:26:11.80
Don't you think
sanctification is just getting
00:26:11.83\00:26:13.67
the righteousness of Christ down
00:26:13.70\00:26:15.10
deeper and deeper into hole.
00:26:15.14\00:26:16.47
On daily basis.
00:26:16.50\00:26:17.84
Like 'cause we all
know it technically,
00:26:17.87\00:26:19.54
but to actually live it
and like over fig leaves
00:26:19.57\00:26:22.01
and our idols and stuff
and stop trusting ourselves,
00:26:22.04\00:26:24.15
that's like...
00:26:24.18\00:26:25.51
These things happen
to us and people say,
00:26:25.55\00:26:26.88
"Well, things happen
to you for a reason."
00:26:26.92\00:26:28.98
But if you don't
understand the reason
00:26:29.02\00:26:30.52
and the reason
is to help others,
00:26:30.55\00:26:32.45
then the
difficulties we go through
00:26:32.49\00:26:34.56
may fall unused.
00:26:34.59\00:26:37.09
We may not learn the lessons
00:26:37.13\00:26:38.69
that God wants us
to from scripture...
00:26:38.73\00:26:40.63
And then you have to
come back with another one.
00:26:40.66\00:26:42.13
And then Steve's
story, our stories
00:26:42.16\00:26:43.73
now can be a
blessing to many other people.
00:26:43.77\00:26:45.67
Not that He wants
us to go through these.
00:26:45.70\00:26:47.04
No. It's not about shame.
00:26:47.07\00:26:48.90
No it's not like you're
such a train wreck before
00:26:48.94\00:26:50.77
and God had to give you.
00:26:50.81\00:26:52.14
It's more like He
saw that you were ready
00:26:52.17\00:26:54.61
and He wanted to drive
the message of the gospel
00:26:54.64\00:26:56.64
even deeper down into you
00:26:56.68\00:26:58.11
so He gave you
this huge mountain
00:26:58.15\00:27:00.02
you have to climb,
you couldn't get over it.
00:27:00.05\00:27:01.38
And sometimes
He has his faith...
00:27:01.42\00:27:02.75
He's expanding your influence...
00:27:02.78\00:27:04.12
Faith goes,
yeah, with a foundation
00:27:04.15\00:27:05.49
and a platform and
that may be the person
00:27:05.52\00:27:07.46
that can get the message out.
00:27:07.49\00:27:08.86
This may have not
been Steve's experience.
00:27:08.89\00:27:11.29
But I can say for
many of the clients
00:27:11.33\00:27:13.50
that I tend to see is
that many of the reasons
00:27:13.53\00:27:16.67
why they're unable to
overcome the depression
00:27:16.70\00:27:18.77
is because they are
judging themselves so hard.
00:27:18.80\00:27:20.57
So hard.
00:27:20.60\00:27:21.94
And they feel like
they shouldn't be crying.
00:27:21.97\00:27:23.97
They shouldn't
be feeling this way.
00:27:24.01\00:27:25.34
And so they on
top of the depression,
00:27:25.37\00:27:26.71
they are also...
00:27:26.74\00:27:28.08
They're shaming
themselves. Right.
00:27:28.11\00:27:29.44
Oh, man, with this we
could go on and on and on
00:27:29.48\00:27:31.48
with this topic,
don't you think, guys?
00:27:31.51\00:27:33.11
I mean, this has
been really good.
00:27:33.15\00:27:34.82
It's been a gripping
journey with Steve Wolhberg,
00:27:34.85\00:27:38.32
escaping from the
black hole of depression,
00:27:38.35\00:27:40.36
anxiety, panic
attacks, and insomnia,
00:27:40.39\00:27:42.46
and a bunch of other things.
00:27:42.49\00:27:43.83
He went down into the
depths, but by the grace of God,
00:27:43.86\00:27:46.33
he rose up to the
triumph of a new life
00:27:46.36\00:27:48.43
in Christ knowing Jesus
00:27:48.46\00:27:50.17
and His righteousness
better than ever before.
00:27:50.20\00:27:52.60
This book, read about
the story and be blessed.
00:27:52.63\00:27:55.37
We hope you join us
for the next episode
00:27:55.40\00:27:57.21
of A Multitude of Counselors.
00:27:57.24\00:27:58.77