Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
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We're so thankful
you've joined us today
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for our program entitled
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"Escaping the black
hole of depression."
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Talking about the
experience of our guest today,
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Steve Wohlberg,
Director of White Horse Media,
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who had a tailspin
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after many years
of good mental health,
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I'm assuming had a tailspin.
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And it wasn't
just depression really,
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it was anxiety, it was
panic, it was insomnia,
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and a slew of other
things came into your experience
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that you've never faced before.
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We're going to
hear the story today.
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But I want to start
out by just giving you
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a little bit of background,
I think that possibly
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one of the most
important contributing factors,
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at least at the beginning
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of your tailspin was medication.
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And so I want to talk
about drugs and mental health.
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We all know that
street drugs, alcohol,
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recreational drugs
have mental health effects.
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It's well-known
in counseling circles
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that people with vulnerabilities
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towards psychotic disorders
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often experience
the onset of a disorder,
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or psychotic break,
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when they take
psychedelic drugs.
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I remember in high
school kids taking LSD
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and really basically
losing their mind after that.
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And so we're all acquainted
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with the
dangers of street drugs,
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but what about
prescription drugs?
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What we often don't realize
is that prescription drugs
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have side effects.
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The doctor told me once
all drugs have side effects,
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some drugs have
only side effects.
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The reality is that
these drugs are very powerful.
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And often the doctors
don't have enough time
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to give us all the
details about what might happen.
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The other factor is
that medicating people
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is kind of like
Russian roulette,
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you never know how a
particular medication
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is going to affect
that particular body.
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So there's so many factors
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that sometimes
that person goes home
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and the side effects can
be very, very significant.
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It can even happen with herbs.
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I remember a young
lady that I was talking to
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was on an herb for depression.
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And ironically enough,
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she developed anxiety
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as a result of the
herb that she was on.
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So we need to be aware
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that our bodies
are very finely tuned
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and these things
are foreign substances
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and they will have an effect.
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There is a diagnosis
in the diagnostic manual
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called medication induced
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anxiety disorders,
isn't that interesting?
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So the following
medications can cause anxiety,
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ready for this?
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Anesthetics, analgesics,
ADHD drugs, asthma drugs,
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bronchodilators,
insulin, thyroid,
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or oral
contraceptives, antihistamines,
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Parkinson's drugs,
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corticosteroids,
blood pressure meds,
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antipsychotics
and antidepressants.
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Is there anything
that's not on that list,
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just about all of
them can cause anxiety.
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And we know those of us
that deal with depression
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and help people with depression
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that often young
adults given even SSRI drugs
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which I consider to be a
relatively safe class of drug
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for depression, Kenny,
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in that first month to six weeks
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have an increase in suicidality
because of that medication.
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So these are very
powerful substances
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and we need to respect that.
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Now sleep medications are
notorious for side effects.
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And it's kind
of counterintuitive
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that a medication that
would is supposed to calm you
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can actually jazz
you up so to speak.
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But what's
happening is very similar
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to what happens with alcohol,
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and that is that
alcohol is a sedative.
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Many people that use alcohol,
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drink it to go
to sleep at night,
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but the body in
attempting to compensate
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for that sedative effect
will become hyper active.
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And I assume
something similar is going on
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sometimes with
sleep medications.
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So our guest today,
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I think may have had
some side effects going on.
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And we'll unpack that
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as we get into
your story, Steve.
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But let me
introduce my panel first.
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This is my friend Paul Coneff,
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he runs Straight to
the Heart ministries,
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and he's a marriage
and family therapist
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from Texas.
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So glad you came.
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This is Dr. Jean
Wright from Philadelphia.
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He's a clinical
forensic psychologist.
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And an amazing guy.
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And this is the
beautiful Christina Cecotto,
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a professional
counselor from Tennessee.
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And I'm so glad you're here
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because you know a lot
about lifestyle medicine too
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and you'll make a
valid contribution.
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And then, Steve Wohlberg,
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the director of
White Horse Media,
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who's going to tell his story.
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Steve, what in the world,
how did you come so unglued?
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A guy that just has so much
that he has to keep together?
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What happened?
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Well, if you don't mind,
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I'd like to start
with the Bible text.
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And that takes us to
the end of the story.
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Thankfully, it ended well.
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Praise God.
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Psalm 40, David said,
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"He brought me up
out of a horrible pit,
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out of the miry clay,
He set my feet upon a rock,
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He established my steps,
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He has put a new
song in my mouth,
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praise to our God,
many will see it in fear,
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and will trust in the Lord."
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And I can really
relate to that text.
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I've been through a
lot of battles in my life
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in different ways.
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But this past
summer was a nightmare
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that I can never fully describe.
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I don't
understand all the reasons
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what brought me into the crisis.
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I think I've got a
handle on some of them.
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I'm a type A personality.
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And so, you
know, push, push, push,
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I think some of us
can relate to that.
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I have always
been a high achiever,
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trying to do a lot of things.
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And I was at the
3ABN camp meeting,
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and I was sleep deprived
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because I was
delayed in my travel,
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I got into the hotel 2
o'clock in the morning,
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got up in the
morning, went to 3ABN,
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spoke a number of
times, when it was over,
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went back to my hotel,
packed up, went to bed,
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got up in the
morning, went to St. Louis,
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flew to Pennsylvania,
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got my rental car,
drove to the camp meeting,
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just in time to
get to my hotel room,
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to change my shirt and my
tie to go to the camp meeting.
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And I was supposed to
speak seven nights in a row...
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PA camp meeting?
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Pennsylvania camp meeting.
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Yeah, conference camp meeting.
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And it was just
push, push, push.
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And I had been
struggling with some issues,
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tightness in my chest,
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things that I didn't
really completely understand.
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And as I was into the
Pennsylvania camp meeting
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where I was
speaking every night,
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I just didn't feel good.
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I just felt, you know, bad.
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And I was questioning
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whether I should
even be speaking.
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When you say you felt
bad, physical symptoms?
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Yeah.
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Like I said, the
tightness in the chest,
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just stamina
issues, and just pressure.
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And then in the middle of
that one week in Pennsylvania,
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one night at two in
the morning I woke up,
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and couldn't go back to sleep,
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and just felt like
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this was more
than just a normal,
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you know, nocturnal awakening,
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like people get up
and go to the bathroom.
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It just felt like
it was more than that.
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And a physician
connected to the camp.
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Somebody knew him, he
came to my hotel room,
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examined me, I
went to his office,
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did a stress test
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and a whole
bunch of tests and...
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What were the
symptoms you're experiencing
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besides wakefulness
for you having part?
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That was the main thing,
it's just anxiety, I guess.
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And my stress test was fine.
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I'm a runner, I jog,
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and I mean consider
myself in pretty good health.
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I try to eat well.
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And he basically said,
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your blood
results look pretty good,
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and you look fine.
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And he recommended
taking a tylenol PM
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to help me go to sleep.
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Did you know it was
anxiety at the time?
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Well, if you were
to ask me at the time,
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are you experiencing anxiety?
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I would have said, "Yes."
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But you wouldn't have known
it was a diagnosable kind of
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anxiety or had anything?
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Not really, not really.
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And so it really
started with the tylenol PM.
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I mean that was part of
what you mentioned the drugs,
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the medications, the sleep meds.
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So I started with
that and it's a long story,
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you know, I try
to bring it together.
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But he probably was thinking
take the tylenol PM tonight
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and then you'll
be okay tomorrow,
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but you kept taking it?
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Well, I took it for a fewnights,
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and it helped,
and I flew back home,
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and it wore off
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as far as its
ability to help me sleep.
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Yeah, you build up a tolerance
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very quickly to
these medications
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and you need more of the
same to give you same effect.
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That's right.
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And I met a lady on an airplane,
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she work for
hospital system, and she,
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we got into a
conversation, and she said that,
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"When I'm under stress
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and I can't sleep
at night I take ambien.
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So I thought, "Okay.
Well, maybe I'll try ambien."
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So went to my local pharmacist,
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when I came back to
Idaho after Pennsylvania,
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and I tried the ambien,
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and that worked
for a few nights,
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and that wore off
and then I talked to
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a couple physician
friends of mine that I know,
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and they recommended on
a temporary basis trazodone
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and then seroquel,
and then I was getting...
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At the same time?
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No, first it was
one after the other...
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So off the ambien,
please tell me about that.
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Went off the
ambien, went on to the...
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I think it was trazodone first
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and then went on to the seroquel
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and part of all of
this was that my son
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was getting ready to
have his 13th birthday
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on a Sabbath,
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and I was going to
baptize him on that day.
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He'd made the wonderful
decision to be baptized
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and dad was
going to baptize him.
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And as about a week
prior to his baptism,
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I was having
difficulty sleeping,
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and then I went
a whole night late.
00:09:48.58\00:09:51.19
I lay in bed the entire
night without sleeping at all.
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And it was not fun.
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Is this the night
before the baptism?
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No, it was about a week before.
00:09:58.29\00:10:00.80
And so as we were
getting closer to the baptism,
00:10:00.83\00:10:03.83
my anxiety was
increasing that, you know,
00:10:03.87\00:10:06.60
I'm going to be
in front of a church,
00:10:06.63\00:10:07.97
I'm going to baptize my
son, I'm not sleeping well.
00:10:08.00\00:10:09.90
I don't do well sleep deprived,
00:10:09.94\00:10:11.87
I can feel my
mind starting to...
00:10:11.91\00:10:14.28
Turn to mash.
00:10:14.31\00:10:15.64
Slip.
00:10:15.68\00:10:17.01
And so I talked to my
physician friends and I said,
00:10:17.05\00:10:18.71
"I really need something strong
00:10:18.75\00:10:21.45
because I got
to get through this
00:10:21.48\00:10:22.98
at least for now."
00:10:23.02\00:10:24.35
And somebody recommended
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I think if I'm saying it,
right, lorazepam or lorazepam,
00:10:26.92\00:10:30.43
which is a benzo and
that surely knocked me out.
00:10:30.46\00:10:34.33
So can you just put a pause here
00:10:34.36\00:10:35.80
tell us about
benzodiazepines, Christine?
00:10:35.83\00:10:38.57
Benzos are highly addictive.
00:10:38.60\00:10:40.84
Within how many
weeks the person addicted
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to benzodiazepines?
00:10:42.57\00:10:44.27
It takes about two weeks
before they become addictive.
00:10:44.31\00:10:47.44
But what is really tough
are the withdrawal symptoms.
00:10:47.48\00:10:50.38
They're usually
worse than the symptoms
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that the person is
experiencing and the reason
00:10:52.48\00:10:54.08
why they took the
drug in the first place.
00:10:54.12\00:10:57.09
So most benzodiazepines,
00:10:57.12\00:10:58.89
we find people get dependent
on them pretty quickly.
00:10:58.92\00:11:02.06
And most people
that do counseling
00:11:02.09\00:11:04.39
when they hear
benzos are concerned.
00:11:04.43\00:11:07.46
So you were on
them for how long?
00:11:07.50\00:11:09.46
About two weeks,
00:11:09.50\00:11:10.83
and I can totally
relate to the addiction.
00:11:10.87\00:11:13.60
Yeah.
00:11:13.64\00:11:15.17
As soon as I was
on it for a few days,
00:11:15.20\00:11:17.31
I thought to myself, I
don't want to be on this.
00:11:17.34\00:11:18.81
I want to sleep without this.
00:11:18.84\00:11:20.58
And so one night,
I thought, I prayed.
00:11:20.61\00:11:22.44
I said, "God, I'm not
going to take it tonight.
00:11:22.48\00:11:24.11
I want to go to sleep.
Just You, and me, and my body."
00:11:24.15\00:11:27.45
And 9 o'clock,
went to 10 o'clock,
00:11:27.48\00:11:30.02
to 11 o'clock, to 12 o'clock,
00:11:30.05\00:11:31.72
I'm laying in bed
and I just thought,
00:11:31.75\00:11:33.12
"Finally, Lord,
I need to sleep."
00:11:33.15\00:11:34.49
So I took it.
00:11:34.52\00:11:35.89
And after being on
this for about two weeks,
00:11:35.92\00:11:39.13
and there was a lot of
things happening inside my head.
00:11:39.16\00:11:43.83
It was just, it
was a deepening crisis.
00:11:43.87\00:11:46.10
Can you talk to us about?
00:11:46.13\00:11:47.47
Yeah. Well...
00:11:47.50\00:11:48.84
What were some of the
symptoms? But you shrinks here.
00:11:48.87\00:11:50.21
Lack of being
able to concentrate?
00:11:54.08\00:11:56.68
I felt like I was losing
my ability to think straight.
00:11:56.71\00:12:00.92
And so after about two weeks,
00:12:00.95\00:12:04.19
I remembered that somebody
in Pennsylvania had said to me
00:12:04.22\00:12:08.52
as I was getting ready to leave
that camp meeting, he said,
00:12:08.56\00:12:11.36
"You need to talk
to Dr. Neil Nedley.
00:12:11.39\00:12:13.40
He's an expert on the brain
and he can probably help you."
00:12:13.43\00:12:19.10
So I remembered
that conversation,
00:12:19.13\00:12:21.44
grabbed my phone,
looked at my contact list,
00:12:21.47\00:12:23.37
I'm sure enough,
there was Nedley cell
00:12:23.41\00:12:25.87
'cause he's a friend
of mine from years ago.
00:12:25.91\00:12:28.04
And I texted him and thankfully
he texted me right back.
00:12:28.08\00:12:31.45
And then I called him
and thankfully, he answered,
00:12:31.48\00:12:34.58
and we had a conversation,
I told them about my symptoms,
00:12:34.62\00:12:37.32
my insomnia, anxiety.
00:12:37.35\00:12:39.12
And then I said to
him, "I'm on the lorazepam."
00:12:39.15\00:12:43.63
And when he heard that,
this was a life changer for me.
00:12:43.66\00:12:47.63
He said, "Steve,
you've got to get down
00:12:47.66\00:12:49.26
here to Weimar right away."
00:12:49.30\00:12:51.10
He said, "We have
a 10-day depression
00:12:51.13\00:12:53.80
and anxiety recovery program
that we run every month or so."
00:12:53.84\00:12:57.54
And he said, "We take 20
people and we've gotten 19,
00:12:57.57\00:13:00.41
and I can squeeze you in.
00:13:00.44\00:13:01.78
And you got to get
here as soon as you can."
00:13:01.81\00:13:04.31
So when we got off the
phone, I went to my wife.
00:13:04.35\00:13:06.51
And I told her
I've changed my mind
00:13:06.55\00:13:08.92
what we discussed it
we were going to go to ASI
00:13:08.95\00:13:11.55
to a big annual convention
00:13:11.59\00:13:14.69
where we had a
White Horse Media booth
00:13:14.72\00:13:16.06
and an annual board meeting.
00:13:16.09\00:13:18.19
And I said, "I think
I need to go to Weimar.
00:13:18.23\00:13:20.43
And I need to cancel this trip."
00:13:20.46\00:13:21.96
So she was all for it.
00:13:22.00\00:13:23.33
She wanted me to recover.
00:13:23.37\00:13:24.70
And she was
concerned about me as well.
00:13:24.73\00:13:27.10
Did she have to
run the booth alone?
00:13:27.14\00:13:29.07
No, we had other people there.
00:13:29.10\00:13:30.87
But so anyway,
00:13:30.91\00:13:32.41
when she drove
me to the airport,
00:13:32.44\00:13:33.84
she helped me pack.
00:13:33.88\00:13:35.21
By this time my mental state
was continuing to deteriorate.
00:13:35.24\00:13:38.65
Somehow I caught my connections.
00:13:38.68\00:13:41.78
And I was picked up at
the airport by a friend,
00:13:41.82\00:13:45.29
one of Dr. Nedley's assistance
in Northern California.
00:13:45.32\00:13:48.29
And he drove me an
hour to Weimar Institute
00:13:48.32\00:13:52.49
in Northern California.
00:13:52.53\00:13:54.40
And during that hour
drive, he shared his story.
00:13:54.43\00:13:57.57
He said that there
was a time in his life
00:13:57.60\00:13:59.90
where for seven years he
was on these medications,
00:13:59.93\00:14:04.04
these sleep meds,
and he just was a mess.
00:14:04.07\00:14:07.48
But the Lord
brought him through that
00:14:07.51\00:14:09.68
through various things.
00:14:09.71\00:14:11.05
And he said, "Now
it's totally gone,
00:14:11.08\00:14:12.45
and I'm back to normal."
00:14:12.48\00:14:13.98
So could you just
pause for a second,
00:14:14.02\00:14:16.48
you got really the
beginning of it was insomnia.
00:14:16.52\00:14:19.15
Yes.
00:14:19.19\00:14:20.52
And would you say
00:14:20.56\00:14:21.89
that the anxiety
preceded the insomnia?
00:14:21.92\00:14:23.89
Yes, but not
nearly to the extent.
00:14:23.93\00:14:26.19
As bad as it got.
00:14:26.23\00:14:27.56
As it surfaced after I
was on this medication.
00:14:27.60\00:14:32.30
I was on the medication,
things just spiraled.
00:14:32.33\00:14:35.24
I'm trying to kind
of scale back a little.
00:14:35.27\00:14:37.14
So we're
experiencing some insomnia,
00:14:37.17\00:14:39.51
did you develop what we
call secondary disturbance
00:14:39.54\00:14:41.58
where I can't sleep
and I'm really bothered
00:14:41.61\00:14:42.94
that I can't sleep,
00:14:42.98\00:14:44.31
there must be
something majorly wrong with me.
00:14:44.35\00:14:45.68
And did it kind of
snowball from there?
00:14:45.71\00:14:47.45
You were getting more anxiety?
00:14:47.48\00:14:49.35
I don't know.
00:14:49.38\00:14:50.72
And I don't
really know exactly what,
00:14:50.75\00:14:52.65
you know, even to
this day, as I look back...
00:14:52.69\00:14:54.99
You don't know
what caused the anxiety.
00:14:55.02\00:14:56.36
I don't know all the reasons,
00:14:56.39\00:14:57.73
Dr. Nedley believes
that part of what contributed
00:14:57.76\00:15:00.46
to what he considered
00:15:00.50\00:15:01.83
to be my brain
chemistry out of whack,
00:15:01.86\00:15:04.70
was spending so many
hours for so many years
00:15:04.73\00:15:08.47
in front of a computer screen.
00:15:08.50\00:15:09.87
And you spend
like most of your day?
00:15:09.90\00:15:11.67
Well, I work at the office,
and I've got my computer there,
00:15:11.71\00:15:13.78
and I'm always
going, I'm writing books,
00:15:13.81\00:15:15.14
I'm doing research,
I'm answering emails
00:15:15.18\00:15:16.78
and etc, etc.
00:15:16.81\00:15:18.65
And probably my
genetics was part of that,
00:15:18.68\00:15:21.58
I'm a high
achiever and the type A.
00:15:21.62\00:15:25.12
What was going
on in your family,
00:15:25.15\00:15:26.59
have any anxiety?
00:15:26.62\00:15:28.12
No, no, we have no
depression in our family,
00:15:28.16\00:15:29.99
we have no suicidal tendencies,
we got nothing like that.
00:15:30.03\00:15:32.93
Insomnia?
00:15:32.96\00:15:34.30
No, not that I'm aware of.
00:15:34.33\00:15:35.66
Well, it sounds to like as,
00:15:35.70\00:15:37.17
as you were
describing your story
00:15:37.20\00:15:38.83
that you were
really, really running.
00:15:38.87\00:15:40.60
I mean, you were off
the plane, on another,
00:15:40.64\00:15:42.57
and you were
getting into a hotel,
00:15:42.60\00:15:43.94
I mean, you barely
had time to change.
00:15:43.97\00:15:45.91
I was putting myself
too hard, and I woke up,
00:15:45.94\00:15:49.44
and I couldn't
sleep in Pennsylvania,
00:15:49.48\00:15:51.28
I took the advice of
the well meaning physician
00:15:51.31\00:15:53.72
and I started
with the tylenol PM,
00:15:53.75\00:15:55.78
one thing led to another,
00:15:55.82\00:15:57.49
I went an entire
night without sleep.
00:15:57.52\00:15:59.15
I finally got on
lorazepam, and told Dr. Nedley,
00:15:59.19\00:16:02.76
this is what I was
doing, I was rerouted to Weimar,
00:16:02.79\00:16:07.53
and one of the first things
00:16:07.56\00:16:09.20
he did was he took
me off the lorazepam
00:16:09.23\00:16:11.57
and he put me on something else
00:16:11.60\00:16:12.93
that he said it's
easier to get off of.
00:16:12.97\00:16:15.10
And he did a blood draw,
00:16:15.14\00:16:16.74
nine blood
draws, not him himself,
00:16:16.77\00:16:18.84
but his
assistants, nine blood draws.
00:16:18.87\00:16:20.38
Took my blood
pressure when I got there,
00:16:20.41\00:16:22.38
it was 195/114, if
you can believe that.
00:16:22.41\00:16:27.08
I was having
severe anxiety attacks.
00:16:27.12\00:16:29.05
I didn't know what was going on.
00:16:29.08\00:16:30.42
I was confused
and Dr. Nedley said,
00:16:30.45\00:16:32.05
"We got to get
you off this benzo."
00:16:32.09\00:16:34.42
And he warned me.
00:16:34.46\00:16:35.79
He said, "You're going to
go through severe withdrawals
00:16:35.82\00:16:39.13
for about two weeks
00:16:39.16\00:16:40.50
as you're getting
off this medication.
00:16:40.53\00:16:42.03
And I went through
this entire program.
00:16:42.06\00:16:44.07
It was a 10 day program.
00:16:44.10\00:16:46.40
He kept me there another week
00:16:46.43\00:16:48.17
because I just
wasn't ready to go home.
00:16:48.20\00:16:50.07
And during
those 10 days, I mean,
00:16:50.11\00:16:51.51
it was a
combination of hydrotherapy
00:16:51.54\00:16:55.04
and a lot of exercise
and plant based natural diet
00:16:55.08\00:17:00.32
and just a whole host of things
that were good for my body.
00:17:00.35\00:17:03.52
Were you allowed
to have your computer?
00:17:03.55\00:17:05.09
They took away my cell phone?
00:17:05.12\00:17:06.45
Everything? Everything.
00:17:06.49\00:17:07.82
Except for 45 minutes at
night, or maybe half hour
00:17:07.86\00:17:09.99
when I can call
my wife and my kids.
00:17:10.03\00:17:11.96
But no computer the
whole time? No, nothing.
00:17:11.99\00:17:13.70
So what was that like
to no computer, no work?
00:17:13.73\00:17:15.63
It was wonderful.
00:17:15.66\00:17:17.00
Your emails are piling
up, all these jobs like you...
00:17:17.03\00:17:19.37
Yeah, well, by
this time, you know,
00:17:19.40\00:17:22.17
I took the depression
test when I got there.
00:17:22.20\00:17:24.54
And I scored very high
00:17:24.57\00:17:25.91
that I was
very, I was depressed.
00:17:25.94\00:17:27.71
And it was the insomnia,
you know, wasn't sleeping.
00:17:27.74\00:17:30.65
I was on the benzo,
00:17:30.68\00:17:32.31
and my future just
looked very, very dark.
00:17:32.35\00:17:35.35
And that's what
I was going to say.
00:17:35.38\00:17:36.72
Is there a whole
bunch of cognitive factors
00:17:36.75\00:17:38.65
that come along with depression,
00:17:38.69\00:17:40.26
you have to have a
certain belief system.
00:17:40.29\00:17:42.32
So I'm not hearing
anything about that.
00:17:42.36\00:17:43.86
What were you... Yeah.
00:17:43.89\00:17:45.23
Inside of my head was telling me
00:17:45.26\00:17:47.66
that I may not get out of this,
00:17:47.70\00:17:50.23
that I'm never going
to get back to normal.
00:17:50.27\00:17:52.17
So you were disturbed...
00:17:52.20\00:17:53.54
And that's why I was just so,
00:17:53.57\00:17:54.90
you know, and I
think the medication
00:17:54.94\00:17:56.67
I mean, all of
this happens so fast.
00:17:56.71\00:17:58.04
I'm not prone to depression,
I'm not prone to these things.
00:17:58.07\00:18:00.71
But it all just hit me
00:18:00.74\00:18:02.41
like a ton of
bricks in a short time.
00:18:02.44\00:18:05.01
And before I knew
it, I was in a hole.
00:18:05.05\00:18:07.48
So it was all concerned
about the condition you were in,
00:18:07.52\00:18:09.85
but there was no belief about
the other aspects of your life.
00:18:09.88\00:18:13.32
It was mostly disturbance
about being so disturbed?
00:18:13.36\00:18:16.69
I think so.
00:18:16.73\00:18:18.69
I mean, some
people get depressed
00:18:18.73\00:18:20.06
because, you know,
like, if you have an affair,
00:18:20.10\00:18:21.63
and you've done something
you shouldn't be doing,
00:18:21.66\00:18:23.97
or you lose your job, or...
00:18:24.00\00:18:25.33
I was depressed
because I wasn't sleeping.
00:18:25.37\00:18:27.40
You were depressed
because you were depressed.
00:18:27.44\00:18:28.77
I didn't think I was
going to get out of this.
00:18:28.80\00:18:30.31
And I thought things began to,
00:18:30.34\00:18:33.11
I started having this
sense of hopelessness.
00:18:33.14\00:18:36.04
You didn't see any light
at the end of the tunnel.
00:18:36.08\00:18:37.41
I didn't see any
light. That's right.
00:18:37.45\00:18:38.78
And I thought, you know,
I'm probably going to die.
00:18:38.81\00:18:41.12
You know, if I don't get
out of this, I'm going to die.
00:18:41.15\00:18:44.09
And not only that,
00:18:44.12\00:18:45.45
but there was not just
one night without sleep,
00:18:45.49\00:18:47.26
there was more than one night.
00:18:47.29\00:18:48.69
And the worst part
during those 10 days,
00:18:48.72\00:18:51.59
or two weeks when
I got off lorazepam,
00:18:51.63\00:18:53.50
and I can tell
you more about this
00:18:53.53\00:18:54.86
if you want to ask, but...
00:18:54.90\00:18:56.77
Now we want to hear about
getting out of the lorazepam.
00:18:56.80\00:18:58.90
At one point I went
four when I was at Weimar,
00:18:58.93\00:19:00.27
I went four nights
in a row without sleep.
00:19:00.30\00:19:05.24
And every morning 5:30
00:19:05.27\00:19:07.04
there's a knock
on the door saying,
00:19:07.08\00:19:08.41
"It's time for exercise."
00:19:08.44\00:19:09.94
And I had to push
myself and exercise
00:19:09.98\00:19:12.41
and go through all
of the different things
00:19:12.45\00:19:13.98
that are part of the program
00:19:14.02\00:19:15.35
which were really
good for me and the body
00:19:15.38\00:19:17.62
to just, you know, like,
00:19:17.65\00:19:19.05
especially the hydrotherapy
going in the hot tub
00:19:19.09\00:19:21.06
and then the ice cold water,
00:19:21.09\00:19:23.06
and back in the hot
tub and the cold water,
00:19:23.09\00:19:24.63
and the hot tub
and the cold water,
00:19:24.66\00:19:26.53
three to five
times, twice a day,
00:19:26.56\00:19:28.26
two or three times a day.
00:19:28.30\00:19:30.10
The program is
designed to reboot your life,
00:19:30.13\00:19:33.87
but because I was
getting off the medication,
00:19:33.90\00:19:36.20
and I wasn't sleeping, you know,
00:19:36.24\00:19:37.64
during those two weeks,
I mean, it was a nightmare.
00:19:37.67\00:19:42.34
Do describe what was going on?
00:19:42.38\00:19:44.21
Well, first of
all, I am already thin,
00:19:44.25\00:19:46.05
but I lost
quite a bit of weight,
00:19:46.08\00:19:48.52
I had no appetite for food.
00:19:48.55\00:19:51.05
Did you eat anyway? Yes.
00:19:51.09\00:19:52.92
I forced myself
to eat every meal.
00:19:52.95\00:19:54.59
I forced myself to eat.
00:19:54.62\00:19:56.29
I wasn't sleeping at night.
00:19:56.32\00:19:58.03
Did you engage
socially with people?
00:19:58.06\00:19:59.93
Yes. You did?
00:19:59.96\00:20:01.30
Yes.
00:20:01.33\00:20:02.66
Was that difficult? Was that?
00:20:02.70\00:20:06.00
I think it's just part
of my nature, it's just,
00:20:06.03\00:20:08.60
you know, it's
just the way I am.
00:20:08.64\00:20:09.97
When you talk to
people at that time,
00:20:10.01\00:20:11.94
did you talk to them
about how hopeless you felt?
00:20:11.97\00:20:14.08
Or did you talk to them
about White Horse Media?
00:20:14.11\00:20:15.44
We talked about
different things.
00:20:15.48\00:20:16.81
So there was
another man that was very,
00:20:16.85\00:20:18.18
he was going
through benzo withdrawals,
00:20:18.21\00:20:19.68
like I was and he and I
really buddied up together,
00:20:19.71\00:20:22.08
we would take walks
on the trails together,
00:20:22.12\00:20:24.12
we used to talk...
00:20:24.15\00:20:25.75
Did you go in as Steve Wolhberg
00:20:25.79\00:20:27.72
the mighty warrior for
God with White Horse Media
00:20:27.76\00:20:30.03
or did you go
and as a broken man?
00:20:30.06\00:20:31.49
How did you connect
with people socially?
00:20:31.53\00:20:33.06
I went there as a broken man.
00:20:33.09\00:20:35.56
I believe in
truth and truth told me,
00:20:35.60\00:20:38.97
I'm in big trouble.
00:20:39.00\00:20:40.50
And there were times when I mean
00:20:40.54\00:20:43.00
and I started
having just, you know,
00:20:43.04\00:20:44.97
as you lay awake
on your bed all night,
00:20:45.01\00:20:49.14
you can't sleep.
00:20:49.18\00:20:51.35
I don't know whether
these were actual voices
00:20:51.38\00:20:53.95
in my head from
the devil himself.
00:20:53.98\00:20:56.22
I strongly believe that
00:20:56.25\00:20:57.59
we wrestle not
against flesh and blood,
00:20:57.62\00:20:59.22
but against
principalities and powers,
00:20:59.25\00:21:01.42
and that there are
real forces of evil,
00:21:01.46\00:21:03.19
and I heard those
voices inside my head.
00:21:03.22\00:21:04.79
What did they say?
00:21:04.83\00:21:06.16
They laughed at
me, they just said,
00:21:06.19\00:21:07.96
"Ha-ha-ha, you're
not going to sleep,
00:21:08.00\00:21:10.27
you're never going
to get out of this,
00:21:10.30\00:21:11.63
you're done.
00:21:11.67\00:21:13.00
And in the morning
I'd hear this "Ha-ha-ha."
00:21:13.03\00:21:14.60
I've got you now Steve Wolhberg
and I'll see you tonight.
00:21:14.64\00:21:17.47
When you go on your bed,
00:21:17.51\00:21:18.84
you're not going
to sleep, "Ha-ha-ha."
00:21:18.87\00:21:21.08
So sleep, you almost
developed an association,
00:21:21.11\00:21:23.58
negative
association with sleep itself.
00:21:23.61\00:21:25.81
Or we trying...
00:21:25.85\00:21:27.18
I was just, I was
terrified to go back to bed
00:21:27.22\00:21:30.79
because I thought, what
if I lay there all night,
00:21:30.82\00:21:33.25
and I can't sleep.
00:21:33.29\00:21:34.62
And I'm just
thinking about Bible verses
00:21:34.66\00:21:38.16
because I'm feeling
this battle inside my head
00:21:38.19\00:21:40.80
in the middle of the night.
00:21:40.83\00:21:42.16
I'm feeling these
forces trying to take over.
00:21:42.20\00:21:45.27
And I'm just thinking,
00:21:45.30\00:21:46.63
"No, Lord, you've got
to bring me through this."
00:21:46.67\00:21:48.14
And what brought me
00:21:48.17\00:21:49.50
through this whole period
was promises, Bible promises.
00:21:49.54\00:21:53.44
And there's many of
them, "I could just rattle off,
00:21:53.48\00:21:55.74
I will never leave you
nor forsake you come to me,
00:21:55.78\00:21:57.91
I will give you rest.
00:21:57.95\00:21:59.28
I am with you. I will
restore you to health."
00:21:59.31\00:22:01.52
Jeremiah 30:17.
00:22:01.55\00:22:03.02
"I will restore you to health,
I will heal you of your wounds.
00:22:03.05\00:22:05.45
And I was relying
on those promises.
00:22:05.49\00:22:07.76
And I even had
suicidal thoughts.
00:22:07.79\00:22:09.42
I mean, I had thought saying,
00:22:09.46\00:22:10.79
you might as well
just take your life,
00:22:10.83\00:22:12.56
you're never going
to get out of this.
00:22:12.59\00:22:14.16
And I've never had
those thoughts before.
00:22:14.20\00:22:16.03
And I had this picture of
my son Seth and my daughter
00:22:16.06\00:22:20.20
on my dresser in
my room at Weimar.
00:22:20.24\00:22:22.90
And I looked at that picture.
00:22:22.94\00:22:24.51
And I thought to myself,
00:22:24.54\00:22:26.01
"If I take my life, you
know, what am I going to do?
00:22:26.04\00:22:29.34
What's that going to do to Seth?
00:22:29.38\00:22:31.15
What's that going to do Adel?
00:22:31.18\00:22:32.85
And what's that
going to do to my wife?
00:22:32.88\00:22:34.22
What's that going to
do to my 89-year-old dad?"
00:22:34.25\00:22:37.22
You know, he's going to
go down his grave, you know,
00:22:37.25\00:22:40.16
thinking that his
son killed himself.
00:22:40.19\00:22:41.82
So I thought never.
00:22:41.86\00:22:43.53
And I just told
the devil, "Never.
00:22:43.56\00:22:45.33
I'm not going to do it.
00:22:45.36\00:22:46.70
I can't do it. I won't do it.
00:22:46.73\00:22:48.06
I felt like I was on
the edge of a psych ward."
00:22:48.10\00:22:50.47
But and I don't think
it was because I held on,
00:22:50.50\00:22:54.67
I think it was
because God held on to me.
00:22:54.70\00:22:57.67
Amen. That's right.
00:22:57.71\00:22:59.04
And I think in
the next half hour,
00:22:59.07\00:23:00.68
we can go into
more of the details
00:23:00.71\00:23:02.04
of how God
brought me out of this,
00:23:02.08\00:23:03.95
because He did
bring me out of this.
00:23:03.98\00:23:05.61
He did answer my prayers.
00:23:05.65\00:23:07.05
He did help me to get
off all the medications.
00:23:07.08\00:23:09.62
He reset my life.
00:23:09.65\00:23:10.99
And like the Psalm said,
00:23:11.02\00:23:12.95
He brought me out
of the horrible pit
00:23:12.99\00:23:15.32
and I praise His
name for rescuing myself.
00:23:15.36\00:23:17.66
So let me ask
my counselors here,
00:23:17.69\00:23:21.36
if he was your client,
which he kind of is right now?
00:23:21.40\00:23:23.93
What would you ask him?
00:23:23.97\00:23:25.80
I wouldn't ask him
a question right now.
00:23:25.83\00:23:27.97
But one thing that I
would use his own words
00:23:28.00\00:23:30.31
to help me
understand what happened.
00:23:30.34\00:23:32.41
You're type A
personality, high achiever.
00:23:32.44\00:23:34.61
Yes.
00:23:34.64\00:23:35.98
Whatever you set your mind
to, you achieve, and it happens.
00:23:36.01\00:23:39.21
And there you were that night,
and you said, "Go to sleep."
00:23:39.25\00:23:42.08
And you couldn't. That's right.
00:23:42.12\00:23:43.45
You were trying to will yourself
00:23:43.49\00:23:45.32
to do something that
your body couldn't do for you.
00:23:45.35\00:23:47.82
And when you
just read those texts,
00:23:47.86\00:23:49.42
and gave me those
texts, it made me think about
00:23:49.46\00:23:51.83
when you decided it
wasn't Steve anymore
00:23:51.86\00:23:53.23
that can handle it.
00:23:53.26\00:23:54.60
But it was God
that could handle it.
00:23:54.63\00:23:55.96
And you held on to His promises.
00:23:56.00\00:23:57.57
That's when you
started relinquishing
00:23:57.60\00:23:58.93
some of the power
that you thought you had,
00:23:58.97\00:24:00.84
and you gave up
on somebody, Steve,
00:24:00.87\00:24:02.50
you're good
enough, you can do it.
00:24:02.54\00:24:04.24
But everything you
would set up to that point
00:24:04.27\00:24:06.34
was you were
going to make a change,
00:24:06.37\00:24:07.71
you were going make it happen.
00:24:07.74\00:24:09.08
And those voices
laughing and really just kind of
00:24:09.11\00:24:11.41
ridicule you
those inside voices.
00:24:11.45\00:24:13.58
You were
fighting up against that
00:24:13.62\00:24:15.05
because at some point,
you had to step back and say,
00:24:15.08\00:24:17.05
"Oh, I can't do this."
00:24:17.09\00:24:18.55
And that's where the Bible,
that's what those promises are.
00:24:18.59\00:24:21.12
When you're a high achiever
00:24:21.16\00:24:22.72
and everything you
touch turns to gold.
00:24:22.76\00:24:25.06
And then when it doesn't,
you start trying to fix it.
00:24:25.09\00:24:28.73
When you can
conquer so many things,
00:24:28.76\00:24:30.47
but you can't conquer your own.
00:24:30.50\00:24:31.83
And it gets frustrating.
00:24:31.87\00:24:34.04
Now what was it like
to be in that situation
00:24:34.07\00:24:35.90
where couldn't will
it, and you've shifted
00:24:35.94\00:24:37.77
from being a
director of being very public,
00:24:37.81\00:24:41.31
being very active,
to being a broken man.
00:24:41.34\00:24:45.31
Well, what was it
like? It was a nightmare.
00:24:45.35\00:24:47.95
And there's a verse in Job 17
00:24:47.98\00:24:51.19
where Job's verse 1:17.
00:24:51.22\00:24:54.19
"My spirit is broken,
My days are extinguished.
00:24:54.22\00:24:58.03
The grave is ready for me.
00:24:58.06\00:24:59.69
I am imagine myself, you
know, in a casket, I mean,
00:24:59.73\00:25:04.10
my bags growing under my
eyes, I was losing weight,
00:25:04.13\00:25:07.37
I would go to the cafeteria
to eat my food and my fingers.
00:25:07.40\00:25:10.24
For some reason,
were started curling in.
00:25:10.27\00:25:12.77
And I thought, "I'm done."
00:25:12.81\00:25:14.78
You know, I was totally
broken and totally helpless.
00:25:14.81\00:25:17.31
And totally, I
felt totally lost.
00:25:17.35\00:25:19.01
I felt like God
didn't love me anymore.
00:25:19.05\00:25:21.42
I felt like I was hopeless.
00:25:21.45\00:25:23.35
I had no hope.
00:25:23.39\00:25:24.72
And, but then God taught me.
00:25:24.75\00:25:27.12
Don't rely on your mind.
00:25:27.16\00:25:29.09
Don't rely on your thoughts.
00:25:29.12\00:25:31.09
The heart of Jeremiah 17,
I think it's verse 11 says,
00:25:31.13\00:25:33.86
"The heart is
deceitful above all things,
00:25:33.90\00:25:35.46
and desperately wicked."
00:25:35.50\00:25:36.83
And then I...
00:25:36.87\00:25:38.20
It hit me one day that
if my heart is deceitful,
00:25:38.23\00:25:40.17
then I can't trust in everything
00:25:40.20\00:25:42.10
my mind is telling me.
00:25:42.14\00:25:43.47
All these thoughts
my mind is telling me...
00:25:43.51\00:25:45.54
We typically apply
that positive thoughts
00:25:45.57\00:25:47.68
like don't fool
yourself, it's, you know,
00:25:47.71\00:25:49.71
the end is coming,
this type of stuff.
00:25:49.74\00:25:51.08
But this applies to
negative thoughts too.
00:25:51.11\00:25:52.98
That's right.
00:25:53.01\00:25:54.35
And I realized, I
can't rely on my mind.
00:25:54.38\00:25:56.35
I've got to rely on
God's promises alone
00:25:56.38\00:26:00.12
that He still loves me.
00:26:00.16\00:26:01.49
Sometimes truth is even
better than we think it is.
00:26:01.52\00:26:02.86
Sometimes it's worse.
00:26:02.89\00:26:05.03
In 2 Corinthians 10, you know,
00:26:05.06\00:26:06.39
we talked about
breaking strongholds, how?
00:26:06.43\00:26:07.93
By taking every thought captive
to the obedience of Christ."
00:26:07.96\00:26:11.10
That was
another big text for me.
00:26:11.13\00:26:12.47
So for me, you know,
00:26:12.50\00:26:13.84
it's like when you start
going into God's promises.
00:26:13.87\00:26:17.14
That's one of the
ways that we can go
00:26:17.17\00:26:19.14
and we're not
trusting our thoughts,
00:26:19.17\00:26:20.51
we're trusting God's.
00:26:20.54\00:26:21.88
We're not saying all
our thoughts are 100% bad
00:26:21.91\00:26:23.24
or 100% good.
00:26:23.28\00:26:24.61
But we're taking them all to God
00:26:24.65\00:26:26.35
so that He can move into that.
00:26:26.38\00:26:28.58
And it's according to that verse
00:26:28.62\00:26:30.09
it's the obedience of Christ.
00:26:30.12\00:26:31.45
So it His obedience even.
00:26:31.49\00:26:32.82
And here, you've
been teaching people
00:26:32.85\00:26:34.19
the Bible all these years,
00:26:34.22\00:26:35.56
but all of a sudden,
it's more real to you.
00:26:35.59\00:26:36.96
I'm not saying it wasn't,
but more than it's ever been.
00:26:36.99\00:26:39.36
Yeah, it was the
biggest crisis in my life
00:26:39.39\00:26:41.20
and I was at the bottom.
00:26:41.23\00:26:42.56
I was going to
ask that question.
00:26:42.60\00:26:44.33
I don't think I
could have gone anymore.
00:26:44.37\00:26:46.23
And as Psalm 107 says,
"They were at their wit's end."
00:26:46.27\00:26:49.44
And I got to the point
where it was right on the edge.
00:26:49.47\00:26:52.61
I felt like I'm
heading for a psych ward.
00:26:52.64\00:26:54.84
"But God, I'm
going to hold on to You,
00:26:54.88\00:26:57.35
You got to bring
me through this."
00:26:57.38\00:26:59.11
Something that
started as a lifestyle issues
00:26:59.15\00:27:01.98
sounds like it ended up
into a cognitive battle.
00:27:02.02\00:27:04.85
The spiritual.
00:27:04.89\00:27:06.22
It was
cognitive, it was spiritual,
00:27:06.25\00:27:08.22
it was physically...
00:27:08.26\00:27:09.59
It's hand to hand
combat with the enemy missile.
00:27:09.62\00:27:10.96
Right.
00:27:10.99\00:27:12.33
It's also a lesson in
how really frail we are
00:27:12.36\00:27:13.76
and how dependent we
are on our brain health.
00:27:13.80\00:27:15.70
Like we're physical bodies,
our characters are housed,
00:27:15.73\00:27:18.80
or even our thought life
is housed in a physical organ,
00:27:18.83\00:27:21.10
and when that
physical organ deteriorates,
00:27:21.14\00:27:24.27
because of lack of sleep,
or what lack of nutrition,
00:27:24.31\00:27:27.38
you know, we're not going to
be able to even think clearly.
00:27:27.41\00:27:29.98
And you're very, I would say,
00:27:30.01\00:27:31.35
exceptionally
intelligent person,
00:27:31.38\00:27:32.98
the fact that you
are losing your grip
00:27:33.01\00:27:34.35
on your ability to think
00:27:34.38\00:27:36.05
means that your brain
was really being compromised.
00:27:36.08\00:27:37.49
It's very scary.
00:27:37.52\00:27:38.85
And it just shows it
can happen to anybody.
00:27:38.89\00:27:40.66
We're so excited. We're gonna...
00:27:40.69\00:27:42.52
Well, he gets out of
the black hole, by the way,
00:27:42.56\00:27:44.63
but not during this segment.
00:27:44.66\00:27:46.26
During the next segment,
we're going to hear that story.
00:27:46.29\00:27:48.43
And he's really taken
us down the pit with him.
00:27:48.46\00:27:50.83
I feel really bad for him
that he went through this.
00:27:50.87\00:27:54.10
But he's going to burst out
into the light of day again.
00:27:54.14\00:27:56.97
And I hope you'll come
with us on that journey.
00:27:57.01\00:27:59.37
Be with us during part two
00:27:59.41\00:28:01.34
of "Escaping from the black hole
00:28:01.38\00:28:03.28
of depression."
00:28:03.31\00:28:04.65