Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
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We're thankful again
that you've joined us
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for the second
half of our program,
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"A Mother's Tears"
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featuring our
precious guest, Pat Arrabito.
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She's told us her
story about how her husband
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and two oldest children
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died tragically in a plane crash
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more than 20 years ago,
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and she has
carried on since then.
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We've discussed grief,
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we've discussed
our concept of God
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and how sometimes
these devastating experiences
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can bring us face to face
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with our own
faith or lack thereof.
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We talked about
her process of growth
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through the tragedy.
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And now we're
going to talk about
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how she continued to grow,
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probably some more
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philosophical
discussions as well,
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but we also want to know
you carried on in Jim stead,
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correct?
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He had big ideas
about creating films
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and you carried on in his stead
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and carried the
ball forward so to speak.
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I want to quickly
introduce our panel today.
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This is Rob Davison,
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professional
counselor from Maryland.
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This is Nicole Parker,
she's a biblical counselor
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from Tennessee.
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Dr. Jean Wright
from my hometown,
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Philadelphia,
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and he's a clinical
forensic psychologist.
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Did I say it right this time?
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Yes. I did.
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And Pat Arrabito, author and...
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Well, you may be
not a book author
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but you're a
content creator, producer,
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director of LLT productions.
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My greatest title
is mother. Mother.
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And now you have two
children, Andy and Adel.
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And Adel has how many children?
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Adel has three boys
and number four on the way.
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On the way,
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and they're missionaries
in a foreign country
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that we can't talk about.
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So, Pat, you're going to tell us
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what happened from the point
that you left us off forward.
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You had a
ministry to carry forward.
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Well, Jim had been producing,
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it was his dream to
produce a documentary series
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that would trace
the history of Sabbath,
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and show how the
Sabbath was preserved
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through the centuries.
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You know,
because we both grew up
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in Sabbath-keeping families
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but we kind of
thought we started,
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you know, in the 1800s
and it was a revelation test
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to realize that somebody
had always kept the Sabbath,
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you know, God
always had His people.
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So he researched
that and he was...
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His goal was to produce,
that's why they were in Alaska.
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He was
collecting some interviews
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on a story in
Alaska, an Inupiat,
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native who had come to
the knowledge of the Sabbath
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through God
teaching him directly
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in the mid 1800s.
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So they were up there
to do those interviews
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at the time of the plane crash.
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And you know, I had met
Jim before I ever met you
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at a camp meeting,
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and I thought he was
the most incredible person
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I'd ever met in my life.
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He told me at the airport,
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we're waiting for
the ride at the airport,
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and he told me
about some of the projects
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that he was involved in.
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And I thought,
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"What a remarkable human being!"
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And then I
heard about the death,
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and I watched the
funeral on a video
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that someone had made,
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and I saw you
speaking at the funeral,
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and that's the first
exposure I've had to you.
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Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
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You know, before we
talk more about that,
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I want to say one more thing
that really struck me about God
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through that experience.
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A lady that I knew who
had two boys the same age
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as my boys been out of town
or something when it happened.
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And about three weeks
later, we ran into each other
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and she said, "Is it
true what I heard about
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Jim and your boys?"
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And I said, "Yes, it is."
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And her response was,
"Wow, if it had been my boys,
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I couldn't know
that they were saved."
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And it really struck me
what her view of God must be.
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You know, would
God have let my boys go
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without knowing
that He could save them.
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Could I trust
God with that promise
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that I'll contend with
Him, and He contends with you,
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and I will save your children?
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Can I trust that He will do that
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or can I trust that God
loves my children so much
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that He doesn't
want to lose them
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and He'll do
everything in His power
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to make sure that they're saved?
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It almost felt like that
lady was the one responsible
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for saving them
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and, "Oh, I would have lost out
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because God would
have, you know..."
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'Cause my kids
weren't ready yet.
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I couldn't know for sure
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that my kids were
ready to be saved.
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And I could say, I
could look at my boys
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and say, "I'm not sure
that they're ready to be saved,
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they were good kids,
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they've been
chosen to be baptized.
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But, you know, I
could see their faults.
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You know, how could I know?"
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And while they were in Alaska,
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God put on my heart to pray
this specific prayer for them
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that He would put
love in their hearts
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as a motive for their choices.
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It's not enough to do right
'cause your parents tell you
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to do right.
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It's not enough to do right
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just because the
Bible tells you what to do.
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You know, doing right
God's way is doing right
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because you love.
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And I wanted God to
put that in their hearts,
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I wanted them to obey,
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and I wanted them
to treat people well
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because they love them.
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And I know that God
answered that prayer
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because He said in Matthew
7, "Ask then you'll receive.
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And if a son asks
his father for bread,
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he's not going to
give him a stone."
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So because of those promises,
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I know that God
did that for my sons.
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And when that
woman said that to me,
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it just really broke my heart
that she wouldn't know for sure
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that God would
do His absolute best
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to save her sons
and not let them go
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if they weren't
ready to be saved.
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That's right,
'cause He is sovereign.
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And I don't know about your view
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but I think you
have the same view as me,
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like God doesn't
make bad things happen
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but He certainly could stop them
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in terms of power,
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He's powerful enough
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to make everything go perfectly.
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And we've seen God
make things happen.
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Yes.
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You know, I've seen God...
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I mean, when Jim was traveling,
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you know, other
trips for the project,
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there were a couple times
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when he was very
close to losing his life,
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and he saw God's
hands saving his life.
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So then the
million-dollar question is,
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why if He has the power
to make things go right,
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why does He
make things go right?
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And I think the
simple answer to that is,
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He has to let sin show
itself for what it really is.
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And if He were to micromanage
the consequences of sin
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and undo really the
normal consequences of sin,
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we would never become
acquainted with this thing
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that has destroyed planet earth.
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We would never
realize how bad it is.
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We would never
realize the sinfulness of sin
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if we didn't
suffer the consequences.
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That's right.
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Sin's very nature
is that it is unjust.
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And if God says,
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"No, I'm not going to
let anything bad happen,
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nothing unjust can
happen to this innocent people,"
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the universe would never
have the evidence they need
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to figure out whether
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selfishness is a better way
to run the universe or love.
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It's interesting
because we know families.
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I know families,
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parents who do
micromanage their children.
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And I know families who
let their children grow.
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We all are raising kids,
have to choose, you know.
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We all have our style.
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How are we gonna teach our
children to be responsible.
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I was way on the freedom side.
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Well, you know, you
want your children to grow up
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and know how to
make their own choices.
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And I've watched
families or children
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don't ever get to make choices,
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and they never
allowed to say no,
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and then they don't
know how to say no to things
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that they should say no to.
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And they let other
people make their decisions
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because their parents
have made all their decisions.
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I wanted my kids to
make their own decisions.
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Statistically, an
authoritarian style of parenting
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tends to lead to kids
being weak in that area,
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and often they will join gangs
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or, you know,
other organizations
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because they're
used to decisions
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being made for them.
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Exact same thing, you can
bear that out statistically.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I wanted my kids to
make their own choices
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to learn how to be.
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But when they're young,
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you have to teach
them what to think
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but as they get older,
it's our job to teach them
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how to think,
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so that they can take the things
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we've taught them
and implement them
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into their own life choices.
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I'd like to come
back just to for a moment
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to what you were saying,
what you were also saying,
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Nicole, that there was a
certain amount of retrospect
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that happened for you
after the fact that helped
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with your healing process.
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Can you tell us
what that was like?
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What you looked back
on to make you realize,
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"Okay, now I see
God's hand in this?"
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And how you were
able to see the eternal
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through the present
after the fact of the tragedy?
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Well, I think, you
know, those promises
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that I had read
before or preparation.
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You know, I think that
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the assurance that
I had received before
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in my own
journey that God is good,
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and that foundational to
everything is God is good,
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and God loves me.
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So you were
prepared for the crisis
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before the crisis came.
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And when it hit,
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you had a
foundation on which to...
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for your healing to build on.
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I'm thinking of a scripture
in this wonderful little book
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by Karen Nicola.
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I think you know
her. I know Karen.
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And she lost her child
and so she was compelled
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to write this book
called "Comfort for the Day."
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And she has a
beautiful scripture,
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it says, "For a
light affliction,
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the reflection is never late
when we're going through it."
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"But in retrospect
which is but for a moment
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is working for us
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a far more exceeding
in eternal weight of glory
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while we do not
look at the things
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which are seen
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but at the things
which are not seen.
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For the things which
are seen are temporary
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but the things which
are not seen are eternal."
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And oh, my goodness!
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We don't experience
that during the crisis.
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No, it doesn't seem light at all
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or it doesn't
seem like a moment.
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But you know, I
want for eternal things
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to be as a real to
me as earthly things.
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You know, I want to
see the perspective that
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I have a whole
universe on my side,
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and I'm just in
this spot with the enemy
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for a short and small
time, that's what I want,
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not that I always
do see it that way
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but that's the truth.
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And I had this
sense that God was with me
00:10:06.74\00:10:08.84
and that He surrounded us
and we weren't alone in it.
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When God sends
the light affliction
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which is but for a moment,
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He's not trying to minimize
the severity of our pain,
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He's trying to get us to
take a step back like you do
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when you're painting, you know,
you get lost in the minute,
00:10:21.42\00:10:24.02
so you step back and
you look at the big picture
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and that's what He's
telling us to do here.
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And you know, that
for me, I had that.
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For my kids,
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they didn't
necessarily have that.
00:10:31.66\00:10:33.73
So what your kids,
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what happens to
kids happens to you too.
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And I had to walk
this walk with them.
00:10:36.80\00:10:39.80
One morning, I
gave Andy the dishes
00:10:39.83\00:10:42.64
to set the table for breakfast,
and I handed him the bowls,
00:10:42.67\00:10:47.81
and he stopped
and he looked at me,
00:10:47.84\00:10:49.21
he said, "Only three bowls?"
00:10:49.24\00:10:53.55
And it was so...
00:10:53.58\00:10:55.28
To go from a family of
six to a family of three
00:10:55.32\00:10:59.75
was so quiet in the house.
00:10:59.79\00:11:01.36
And my kids
didn't want to be home.
00:11:01.39\00:11:03.29
They wanted to
be somewhere else,
00:11:03.32\00:11:04.66
they didn't want to be home.
00:11:04.69\00:11:06.03
And we had friends
who would take the kids
00:11:06.06\00:11:07.40
over to their
house, you know, a lot.
00:11:07.43\00:11:09.86
And I started
them on music lessons
00:11:09.90\00:11:11.93
and did stuff to keep them busy
00:11:11.97\00:11:13.34
because home
just was not the same.
00:11:13.37\00:11:16.37
And once again,
00:11:16.40\00:11:17.74
we talked about
this in another program
00:11:17.77\00:11:19.11
but when we're
dealing with grief,
00:11:19.14\00:11:21.34
you know, we
cannot run from the pain.
00:11:21.38\00:11:23.45
The pain is going to come
00:11:23.48\00:11:24.81
and we have to
face it and feel it.
00:11:24.85\00:11:26.45
But we can't be stuck there,
we have to be able to do life.
00:11:26.48\00:11:29.05
And you were trying to
do life for your children
00:11:29.08\00:11:31.39
with activities
and try to normalize
00:11:31.42\00:11:35.19
as much as you can this process.
00:11:35.22\00:11:38.46
You couldn't normalize
it completely, you couldn't.
00:11:38.49\00:11:40.90
Nothing was normal, you know,
but I tried to keep structure,
00:11:40.93\00:11:44.53
the same structure and
the same kind of schedule
00:11:44.57\00:11:47.04
that we had had before,
00:11:47.07\00:11:49.04
and then I tried
to fill their time.
00:11:49.07\00:11:50.61
And we were homeschooling,
and then at the same time,
00:11:50.64\00:11:54.74
Jim wasn't down at the
office doing the office stuff.
00:11:54.78\00:11:57.61
So for about six
months, I didn't go in either.
00:11:57.65\00:12:02.05
Other people were taking
care of stuff and I stayed home.
00:12:02.08\00:12:04.22
But after about six
months, I started, you know,
00:12:04.25\00:12:07.22
just going in a
little bit in the afternoon
00:12:07.26\00:12:09.46
and doing some of
the shipping stuff.
00:12:09.49\00:12:11.83
Did you ever think
about just folding it all up?
00:12:11.86\00:12:14.06
No. No.
00:12:14.10\00:12:15.46
No, you know, we had watched God
00:12:15.50\00:12:18.20
provide for that project.
00:12:18.23\00:12:19.87
You know, He
had provided funding
00:12:19.90\00:12:22.14
and Jim was always
praying for a million dollars.
00:12:22.17\00:12:24.04
And you know, some
money started coming in
00:12:24.07\00:12:26.51
that we could
move forward with it,
00:12:26.54\00:12:27.88
and there were some volunteers
00:12:27.91\00:12:29.44
that were helping with research.
00:12:29.48\00:12:30.98
And I knew God,
00:12:31.01\00:12:32.35
we both knew God was
going to do this project,
00:12:32.38\00:12:34.28
we had no doubt.
00:12:34.32\00:12:35.72
And when Jim was gone,
00:12:35.75\00:12:37.09
I still knew God was
going to do that project.
00:12:37.12\00:12:39.15
And I figured, you know,
00:12:39.19\00:12:41.36
if I was willing God
would do it through me,
00:12:41.39\00:12:43.02
and if I wasn't willing,
00:12:43.06\00:12:44.39
He'd find
somebody else to do it.
00:12:44.43\00:12:45.76
And I knew that I
wasn't capable of doing it
00:12:45.79\00:12:47.26
and I don't have the
same gifts that Jim had.
00:12:47.30\00:12:49.80
So I just prayed
that God would send people
00:12:49.83\00:12:52.07
who knew how to do it.
00:12:52.10\00:12:53.44
And in the meantime,
I know how to research
00:12:53.47\00:12:55.34
and I could start the research
00:12:55.37\00:12:56.71
'cause
everything was in his head.
00:12:56.74\00:12:58.21
There was no
documentation for anything.
00:12:58.24\00:13:00.28
There was a storyboard,
00:13:00.31\00:13:01.64
almost 600 pictures that showed.
00:13:01.68\00:13:03.01
And this was really
before computer technology
00:13:03.04\00:13:04.58
where you can do that.
00:13:04.61\00:13:05.95
We had just gotten
our first computer,
00:13:05.98\00:13:07.32
we were doing bookkeeping on it.
00:13:07.35\00:13:08.68
So he had drawn,
you know, a storyboard
00:13:08.72\00:13:11.39
that showed the people,
places, events in the order
00:13:11.42\00:13:13.46
that he saw it
going, but you know,
00:13:13.49\00:13:15.39
I didn't have
documentation for these people
00:13:15.42\00:13:17.36
that were on there.
00:13:17.39\00:13:18.73
And I had, you know, for
me, I had to have it done well
00:13:18.76\00:13:22.20
with good documentation
and footnotes and everything
00:13:22.23\00:13:25.10
so that I had to
know enough to know
00:13:25.13\00:13:26.47
what to keep and
what to leave out.
00:13:26.50\00:13:28.10
So for the sake of
the viewing audience,
00:13:28.14\00:13:29.54
can you just
give a little summary
00:13:29.57\00:13:31.67
of what you were
actually working on?
00:13:31.71\00:13:33.64
I was working on
stories that relate
00:13:33.68\00:13:35.71
to how the Sabbath
00:13:35.74\00:13:37.08
was preserved
through the centuries.
00:13:37.11\00:13:38.45
Right, okay.
00:13:38.48\00:13:39.81
So, you know,
00:13:39.85\00:13:41.18
how many people
know that St. Patrick
00:13:41.22\00:13:42.55
really wasn't a Catholic,
00:13:42.58\00:13:43.92
that he was part of
the early apostolic church,
00:13:43.95\00:13:45.89
and that he honored
the seventh-day Sabbath?
00:13:45.92\00:13:48.32
So being able to document that,
00:13:48.36\00:13:50.33
and many, many,
many other stories
00:13:50.36\00:13:52.39
through the centuries, you know.
00:13:52.43\00:13:54.40
And I'd go to a book
00:13:54.43\00:13:56.67
and then I'd go
to their footnotes,
00:13:56.70\00:13:58.03
and then I order the books
that were in those footnotes.
00:13:58.07\00:13:59.57
And then I'd go to the
footnotes in those books
00:13:59.60\00:14:01.74
and the library at PUC
would get these books for me.
00:14:01.77\00:14:04.71
And you know, I put it all...
00:14:04.74\00:14:06.71
this time, all in the computer.
00:14:06.74\00:14:09.11
And by the time I got done,
00:14:09.14\00:14:11.25
it took me eight
years to research.
00:14:11.28\00:14:13.72
And I kept saying, "God, I
know you can do this faster.
00:14:13.75\00:14:16.15
Please send
somebody who can do it faster
00:14:16.18\00:14:17.69
and better than me."
00:14:17.72\00:14:19.69
Pat, this is a
very significant part
00:14:19.72\00:14:22.19
of the healing process
00:14:22.22\00:14:23.56
that you were sharing right now,
00:14:23.59\00:14:25.53
in that, you were carrying
on the legacy of your husband,
00:14:25.56\00:14:29.20
and that work
needed to be carrying on
00:14:29.23\00:14:30.90
and that was healing for you.
00:14:30.93\00:14:32.57
Yeah, and it became mine.
00:14:32.60\00:14:34.07
After a while, it
wasn't his, it was mine.
00:14:34.10\00:14:36.04
Yes.
00:14:36.07\00:14:37.97
That's how you're
preserving the memory
00:14:38.01\00:14:40.14
and the
influence of your husband,
00:14:40.18\00:14:42.04
and that's so
important for us to do
00:14:42.08\00:14:44.61
when we're grieving
00:14:44.65\00:14:45.98
as how can we
honor that person's life.
00:14:46.01\00:14:48.75
Yeah.
00:14:48.78\00:14:50.12
You know, it's interesting,
00:14:50.15\00:14:51.49
I have a relative who
lost her husband recently.
00:14:51.52\00:14:54.82
And the next week,
00:14:54.86\00:14:56.19
she went into the
closet and cleaned it all out.
00:14:56.22\00:14:58.96
I couldn't do that.
00:14:58.99\00:15:00.76
You know, my son's room
00:15:00.80\00:15:02.53
was the evidence
of their existence,
00:15:02.56\00:15:05.20
and I couldn't just go
and remove all the evidence
00:15:05.23\00:15:08.80
of their existence.
00:15:08.84\00:15:10.17
It took me a year
before I could really take,
00:15:10.21\00:15:15.41
you know, put
away all their stuff
00:15:15.44\00:15:17.05
and all of Jim's stuff.
00:15:17.08\00:15:18.41
And that's okay.
00:15:18.45\00:15:19.78
Because that was, you know,
00:15:19.81\00:15:21.15
it's the evidence
of their existence.
00:15:21.18\00:15:23.05
You know, we're all
different that way too,
00:15:23.08\00:15:24.45
some people can just go in,
"This is my new life today."
00:15:24.49\00:15:26.92
But you know, for me,
00:15:26.96\00:15:28.29
it was a process
adapting to the new life
00:15:28.32\00:15:31.43
that I have to live.
00:15:31.46\00:15:32.79
Now if those
clothes are in the closet
00:15:32.83\00:15:34.16
20 years later, that
would be complicated.
00:15:34.20\00:15:36.23
That might be complicated.
00:15:36.26\00:15:38.13
Twenty years later,
00:15:38.17\00:15:39.50
I'm taking them
out and smelling them.
00:15:39.53\00:15:40.87
And then you hit on something
I think is so important.
00:15:40.90\00:15:43.67
A dear friend of mine
00:15:43.71\00:15:45.04
lost his son to
the opioid epidemic.
00:15:45.07\00:15:47.24
And you can
imagine how she felt.
00:15:47.28\00:15:50.65
And her husband took it one way
00:15:50.68\00:15:52.81
and was not handling it well.
00:15:52.85\00:15:54.82
And she started a
foundation to help other parents
00:15:54.85\00:15:58.42
that have children
that are addicted to opioids
00:15:58.45\00:16:00.76
to help them get through it.
00:16:00.79\00:16:02.12
And so that bouncing
back, that ability to use grief
00:16:02.16\00:16:06.29
and that the trauma
that happened to her,
00:16:06.33\00:16:08.26
she was able to then
reach out and help other people
00:16:08.30\00:16:10.63
through a project that's going
to save thousands of lives.
00:16:10.67\00:16:13.47
And so this documentary
that you put together
00:16:13.50\00:16:16.14
and people see that,
it did something for you,
00:16:16.17\00:16:19.01
but think about
all the other people
00:16:19.04\00:16:20.61
that it's gonna help as well.
00:16:20.64\00:16:21.98
Yeah, I think one
of the crucial things
00:16:22.01\00:16:23.75
that we have to understand,
00:16:23.78\00:16:25.11
all of us are
grappling in this world
00:16:25.15\00:16:26.95
with this central
problem of faith or unbelief
00:16:26.98\00:16:30.55
which is going to
be my path in life.
00:16:30.59\00:16:32.15
If I'm going to
trust God with my life
00:16:32.19\00:16:34.72
or if I'm going to trust myself,
00:16:34.76\00:16:37.13
but crisis just
catapults us into this.
00:16:37.16\00:16:40.70
It catalyzes everything
00:16:40.73\00:16:43.53
that is the
anguish of our hearts
00:16:43.57\00:16:46.03
and makes us question
where we really stand.
00:16:46.07\00:16:49.67
Every sin starts with unbelief.
00:16:49.70\00:16:52.87
And then when we
engage in unbelief,
00:16:52.91\00:16:54.94
we doubt the character of God,
00:16:54.98\00:16:56.54
we doubt that He
is good or loving.
00:16:56.58\00:16:58.85
Then inevitably,
we engage in pride.
00:16:58.88\00:17:01.52
We start trying in
some way to be God,
00:17:01.55\00:17:04.65
to substitute or to
say, "If I were God,
00:17:04.69\00:17:08.36
I wouldn't have
done it that way, "
00:17:08.39\00:17:09.72
which is essentially
saying we're better than God.
00:17:09.76\00:17:12.69
And that's
where crisis sends us,
00:17:12.73\00:17:17.27
it forces us to
grapple with who God is.
00:17:17.30\00:17:19.87
Then kind of see
who we really are.
00:17:19.90\00:17:21.40
Right.
00:17:21.44\00:17:22.77
You know, that kind of tested
the stability of our faith.
00:17:22.80\00:17:25.77
Right, if we come
out the other side
00:17:25.81\00:17:28.04
still believing He is good,
00:17:28.08\00:17:30.58
we've essentially grappled with,
00:17:30.61\00:17:32.81
"Is God who He
says He is in His Word
00:17:32.85\00:17:34.78
or is He who I feel He is
00:17:34.82\00:17:36.32
or who my life circumstances
have told me He is."
00:17:36.35\00:17:39.19
That's the essential choice.
00:17:39.22\00:17:40.62
Right, and that's
where the challenge I think
00:17:40.66\00:17:41.99
it's for your young children.
00:17:42.02\00:17:44.19
She had a foundation,
and she knew God was good
00:17:44.23\00:17:46.80
and she could reach
back over her life and say,
00:17:46.83\00:17:48.46
"Okay, I have evidence."
00:17:48.50\00:17:50.10
But a seven-year-old,
a nine-year-old there...
00:17:50.13\00:17:53.03
Doesn't have that history.
Doesn't really have that.
00:17:53.07\00:17:55.00
They can only go about
what we put in them, right?
00:17:55.04\00:17:57.11
Right.
00:17:57.14\00:17:58.47
What you said
earlier, and so that's I think,
00:17:58.51\00:17:59.94
what really hit me in my chest
00:17:59.97\00:18:01.48
when you talk about
your young children,
00:18:01.51\00:18:03.28
your daughter went
one way in terms of,
00:18:03.31\00:18:04.95
"I don't want to deal with it."
00:18:04.98\00:18:06.58
And your son, the other way.
00:18:06.61\00:18:08.82
And so as a mother, seeing that,
00:18:08.85\00:18:11.79
what was that like for you?
00:18:11.82\00:18:13.15
Well, and you're always trying
to meet your children's needs,
00:18:13.19\00:18:15.62
you know.
00:18:15.66\00:18:16.99
We did lots of
talking, you know, my son,
00:18:17.03\00:18:20.06
you know, feeling
like God isn't that good
00:18:20.10\00:18:21.63
or God isn't that loving.
00:18:21.66\00:18:23.00
We did lots of talking about it
but, you know, talking is good,
00:18:23.03\00:18:26.60
and it has its place
that doesn't necessarily
00:18:26.63\00:18:29.20
change the heart.
00:18:29.24\00:18:30.77
And to this day, my
prayer for my son is that
00:18:30.81\00:18:33.14
God will reveal Himself to him,
00:18:33.17\00:18:36.14
because ultimately God
has to do that, that job.
00:18:36.18\00:18:39.58
And my daughter found
God for herself personally
00:18:39.61\00:18:42.68
five years later.
00:18:42.72\00:18:44.79
I would say that my son
is still looking for that.
00:18:44.82\00:18:48.62
Work in progress.
00:18:48.66\00:18:49.99
He still has to grapple
with that central question,
00:18:50.03\00:18:52.06
"is God who He
says He is in His Word
00:18:52.09\00:18:54.36
or who I feel He is
and who the circumstances
00:18:54.40\00:18:56.67
have seemed to tell me He is?"
00:18:56.70\00:18:58.07
And he tended to
remember negative things,
00:18:58.10\00:19:00.50
it's more his
personality to do that,
00:19:00.54\00:19:03.00
as well as the fact
00:19:03.04\00:19:04.37
that he required more discipline
00:19:04.41\00:19:05.84
than my other children did.
00:19:05.87\00:19:07.84
And so, you know,
that is a memory to him
00:19:07.88\00:19:10.85
that maybe he was bad.
00:19:10.88\00:19:12.21
In fact, he even
said afterwards, he said,
00:19:12.25\00:19:13.75
"I'm so bad, I'll
never go to heaven."
00:19:13.78\00:19:15.68
He felt responsible
for their, you know,
00:19:15.72\00:19:18.29
he took that like kids do
that somehow it's his fault
00:19:18.32\00:19:21.59
that it happened.
00:19:21.62\00:19:23.12
And probably happen
'cause they don't like him.
00:19:23.16\00:19:25.09
And if they don't like
him, God doesn't like me either.
00:19:25.13\00:19:27.76
And he expressed all of that.
00:19:27.80\00:19:29.13
That is the worst
possible conclusions.
00:19:29.16\00:19:30.63
Yeah, and we
talked about it, you know,
00:19:30.67\00:19:32.50
and we reasoned with him,
00:19:32.53\00:19:33.90
and we memorize
scripture together
00:19:33.94\00:19:35.80
that would answer those doubts.
00:19:35.84\00:19:38.07
But it takes, you know,
00:19:38.11\00:19:40.74
it takes the Holy Spirit
telling a person those things.
00:19:40.78\00:19:43.45
And the Holy Spirit uses people.
00:19:43.48\00:19:45.28
And we haven't
talked too much about.
00:19:45.31\00:19:47.45
Well, we have
talked about support.
00:19:47.48\00:19:48.95
You were a
support for your children.
00:19:48.98\00:19:51.02
And I like the word
catapult into crisis
00:19:51.05\00:19:54.42
because it's
such a word picture,
00:19:54.46\00:19:56.66
you were catapult
within the crisis.
00:19:56.69\00:19:59.36
What was your humanly
support system for you?
00:19:59.39\00:20:02.06
Yes, what did you have?
00:20:02.10\00:20:03.60
Do you had church
fellowship within?
00:20:03.63\00:20:05.13
Yeah, we had a church family,
00:20:05.17\00:20:07.24
we had a community that knew us.
00:20:07.27\00:20:09.20
I have family that's close.
00:20:09.24\00:20:10.81
My dad and mom lived
right there in the community.
00:20:10.84\00:20:13.84
So I feel like our
family was very supported.
00:20:13.88\00:20:17.48
And my children
were very supported,
00:20:17.51\00:20:20.42
they were very
protective of the dad spot
00:20:20.45\00:20:23.55
like they didn't want
anyone trying to father them,
00:20:23.59\00:20:26.49
not even their grandpa
00:20:26.52\00:20:27.86
couldn't try to
act like a dad to them.
00:20:27.89\00:20:29.96
They didn't want
discipline from grandpa,
00:20:29.99\00:20:31.39
they want grandpa to
be a grandpa, not dad.
00:20:31.43\00:20:33.86
So it made it a little
bit more difficult for them
00:20:33.90\00:20:37.00
'cause they were so
protective of that spot.
00:20:37.03\00:20:39.37
But, you know, there
were men in the community
00:20:39.40\00:20:42.00
that took an
interest in my kids.
00:20:42.04\00:20:44.21
There was a teacher
and I put Andy in school
00:20:44.24\00:20:46.88
in sixth grade specifically
to have this teacher
00:20:46.91\00:20:49.21
who had known our
family for many years.
00:20:49.24\00:20:51.11
And he took on a responsibility
especially with Andy for years.
00:20:51.15\00:20:55.82
And we had difficult times,
00:20:55.85\00:20:57.62
there were times
when I called him
00:20:57.65\00:20:58.99
in the middle of the night.
00:20:59.02\00:21:00.36
There were times
when we went down
00:21:00.39\00:21:01.72
when he was in the middle class.
00:21:01.76\00:21:03.09
Really? He would come out, yeah.
00:21:03.12\00:21:04.46
Yeah.
00:21:04.49\00:21:05.83
That's perfect because children,
00:21:05.86\00:21:08.16
they don't know it
00:21:08.20\00:21:09.53
but when they're
missing their parent figure,
00:21:09.56\00:21:11.60
for someone to step in
and not try to be the father.
00:21:11.63\00:21:15.54
But still to be a support that
they don't know that they need.
00:21:15.57\00:21:19.57
It's a beautiful
thing that happened.
00:21:19.61\00:21:21.24
I'm glad it happened
with you and your family.
00:21:21.28\00:21:23.11
Yeah, you know, it
was a wonderful thing.
00:21:23.14\00:21:26.01
There's still
that huge hole there
00:21:26.05\00:21:27.62
because no one
steps into that hole,
00:21:27.65\00:21:30.55
and the hole is there
00:21:30.59\00:21:32.12
and the kids are
aware of it all the time.
00:21:32.15\00:21:34.46
If someone
stepped into that hole,
00:21:34.49\00:21:36.73
I could see where
they'd almost feel like
00:21:36.76\00:21:38.29
it was discounting who
had been in that hole before.
00:21:38.33\00:21:42.33
May be so. Yeah.
00:21:42.36\00:21:44.33
In a child's mind especially.
00:21:44.37\00:21:45.93
And I think my kids
were self conscious.
00:21:45.97\00:21:48.30
As Andy expressed it more,
00:21:48.34\00:21:49.67
you know, he felt
like he was the only kid
00:21:49.70\00:21:51.04
that didn't have a
dad among all these kids,
00:21:51.07\00:21:53.34
and that made
him self-conscious.
00:21:53.38\00:21:56.04
I'm wondering how you
handle that logistically
00:21:56.08\00:21:58.68
you're going into work now,
00:21:58.71\00:22:00.22
you're also
homeschooling your kids.
00:22:00.25\00:22:01.95
What in the world?
00:22:01.98\00:22:03.32
How did you...?
00:22:03.35\00:22:04.69
I had help for a while.
00:22:04.72\00:22:06.15
A lady and her kids
came and stayed with me,
00:22:06.19\00:22:08.09
and they homeschooled
the kids in the mornings
00:22:08.12\00:22:10.79
while I went in.
00:22:10.83\00:22:12.16
And then the next year,
00:22:12.19\00:22:13.70
my kids are with
the home-school group.
00:22:13.73\00:22:15.73
So I wasn't the hands-on only
home-school teacher for them
00:22:15.76\00:22:21.44
after Jim died.
00:22:21.47\00:22:23.10
And they both turned
out okay academically?
00:22:23.14\00:22:25.04
I mean, both your
kids are really bright.
00:22:25.07\00:22:26.41
Yeah.
00:22:26.44\00:22:27.78
It was Marian,
Andy's you know...
00:22:27.81\00:22:30.81
He was a Navy SEAL for 10 years
00:22:30.85\00:22:32.28
and now he's got
his own business.
00:22:32.31\00:22:33.88
And he's...
00:22:33.92\00:22:35.25
Yeah,
academically, they did fine.
00:22:35.28\00:22:36.62
My kids always
tested very well on tests.
00:22:36.65\00:22:39.85
He's an entrepreneur so
he started a knife company,
00:22:39.89\00:22:42.86
he makes custom knives.
00:22:42.89\00:22:44.59
I had an event at my
farm, at my retreat center.
00:22:44.63\00:22:47.60
Guy pulls out a knife
00:22:47.63\00:22:48.96
because he knew
you, he knew Andy.
00:22:49.00\00:22:50.33
And he pulls out a
knife that Andy sold him.
00:22:50.37\00:22:51.73
Is that right? Yeah.
00:22:51.77\00:22:53.10
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:53.13\00:22:54.47
So moving forward,
00:22:54.50\00:22:56.74
were you catalyzed
00:22:56.77\00:22:58.47
that you can bring
these projects to completion
00:22:58.51\00:23:01.34
by the fact that you
knew Jim had envisioned them?
00:23:01.38\00:23:03.95
Was that driving you
00:23:03.98\00:23:05.31
or was it that you
wanted to do it for yourself,
00:23:05.35\00:23:06.95
or can you not do yourself?
00:23:06.98\00:23:08.32
I just knew God
was going to do it.
00:23:08.35\00:23:09.68
And He would use
me if I'm willing
00:23:09.72\00:23:12.75
or He would find
somebody else to do.
00:23:12.79\00:23:14.39
I knew God was
going to accomplish it.
00:23:14.42\00:23:16.22
That's cool.
00:23:16.26\00:23:17.59
So I prayed that He
would send the people
00:23:17.63\00:23:18.96
who knew how to do it
00:23:18.99\00:23:20.46
and by the time
I finished research
00:23:20.50\00:23:22.30
eight years later,
00:23:22.33\00:23:23.90
I had a document
00:23:23.93\00:23:25.27
that was over 200
pages of notebook,
00:23:25.30\00:23:27.10
it had a 1000 footnotes.
00:23:27.14\00:23:29.20
In the footnotes some of
them had up to 10 sources.
00:23:29.24\00:23:32.41
And Dr. Dom
Steak at the seminary
00:23:32.44\00:23:34.14
had agreed to be my scholar,
00:23:34.18\00:23:35.61
so he read through it
all and he would read my...
00:23:35.64\00:23:37.85
He would go to my sources,
00:23:37.88\00:23:39.21
he would let me know if
I needed more documentation
00:23:39.25\00:23:41.42
in any area, he
would let me know
00:23:41.45\00:23:43.08
if a source was not credible,
00:23:43.12\00:23:45.39
he showed me how to
write every footnote...
00:23:45.42\00:23:47.26
What a blessing and that's not,
00:23:47.29\00:23:48.76
that's pretty tedious
writing to go through.
00:23:48.79\00:23:51.06
Well, you know, I
mean, it's interesting,
00:23:51.09\00:23:52.69
it was interesting stuff,
00:23:52.73\00:23:54.06
but when we
actually came to production
00:23:54.10\00:23:56.87
a script writer needed
to take it which I knew,
00:23:56.90\00:23:59.53
script writing is different
00:23:59.57\00:24:00.90
than writing a book
or compiling research.
00:24:00.94\00:24:04.71
So then God sent
the scriptwriter,
00:24:04.74\00:24:07.34
and the producer, and the host,
00:24:07.38\00:24:08.71
and all that and the
money and God did it.
00:24:08.74\00:24:11.21
I remember the
first time I met you,
00:24:11.25\00:24:12.65
it was at a conference
00:24:12.68\00:24:14.02
and, you know, we were chatting,
00:24:14.05\00:24:15.38
I think we went to
lunch with another person
00:24:15.42\00:24:16.99
and you kind of
said offhandedly,
00:24:17.02\00:24:19.05
I need a million
dollars by Sunday.
00:24:19.09\00:24:21.49
So I was just like,
00:24:21.52\00:24:22.86
"Who is this woman who
needs a million dollars."
00:24:22.89\00:24:26.39
But you did, and you
raised the million dollars...
00:24:26.43\00:24:29.13
I didn't raise
a million dollars.
00:24:29.16\00:24:30.67
God provided it.
00:24:30.70\00:24:33.07
So just give us a
brief not show version
00:24:33.10\00:24:35.40
because I know you're
going to do a larger program
00:24:35.44\00:24:37.11
on your project itself I think.
00:24:37.14\00:24:39.87
But people know about it,
00:24:39.91\00:24:41.31
but give just a nutshell version
00:24:41.34\00:24:42.68
of what you've
been able to accomplish
00:24:42.71\00:24:44.05
by the grace of God
through LLT productions.
00:24:44.08\00:24:46.21
Well, we have the doc,
the Sabbath documentary,
00:24:46.25\00:24:48.28
the seventh-day series
00:24:48.32\00:24:49.65
which is five programs each one,
00:24:49.68\00:24:51.59
five DVDs each one covering
00:24:51.62\00:24:52.95
in different time
period in history,
00:24:52.99\00:24:54.32
there's a bonus feature
DVD that goes along with it
00:24:54.36\00:24:56.42
and that series has
been translated into
00:24:56.46\00:24:58.73
I think 25 languages now,
00:24:58.76\00:25:01.26
and it's used
all over the world.
00:25:01.30\00:25:03.50
Because the
Sabbath is at the roots
00:25:03.53\00:25:05.20
of just about
every culture somewhere.
00:25:05.23\00:25:08.10
And then after that
we want to talk about
00:25:08.14\00:25:09.90
the state of the dead
00:25:09.94\00:25:11.27
because the Sabbath
and the state of the dead
00:25:11.31\00:25:12.84
are the two issues
that are most confusing,
00:25:12.87\00:25:16.85
almost
deceiving people the most,
00:25:16.88\00:25:19.38
I'm not saying that very well.
00:25:19.41\00:25:20.75
And so many people
00:25:20.78\00:25:22.12
grapple with what
happens when a person die.
00:25:22.15\00:25:23.49
Those are the questions.
00:25:23.52\00:25:24.85
The state of the dead
is the bigger question
00:25:24.89\00:25:26.22
than the Sabbath for
people right now anyway
00:25:26.25\00:25:28.12
because of spiritualism
and us being post Christian...
00:25:28.16\00:25:31.03
And because
everybody's going to die.
00:25:31.06\00:25:33.43
So if you're, if you
know you're going to die
00:25:33.46\00:25:34.86
you kind of want to
know sooner or later
00:25:34.90\00:25:36.36
what's going to happen to you.
00:25:36.40\00:25:38.20
So we started work on
that with a film entitled
00:25:38.23\00:25:42.57
"Hell and Mr. Fudge,"
and it's a feature film,
00:25:42.60\00:25:44.94
it's based on the
true story of a man
00:25:44.97\00:25:47.68
whose real name is
Fudge, Edward Fudge.
00:25:47.71\00:25:50.15
And he was hired to find out
what the Bible really teaches
00:25:50.18\00:25:53.25
about eternal torment.
00:25:53.28\00:25:54.98
Does God torment
people for eternity or not?
00:25:55.02\00:25:57.99
And by the time he finishes
his research and goes through,
00:25:58.02\00:26:01.06
what he goes
through in the process,
00:26:01.09\00:26:03.76
he knows that
God doesn't do that
00:26:03.79\00:26:07.13
that death is death, not life.
00:26:07.16\00:26:09.50
You know, because most of
the Christian world believes
00:26:09.53\00:26:11.73
that there is no death,
00:26:11.77\00:26:13.10
there is either
eternal life in heaven
00:26:13.13\00:26:14.47
or eternal life in hell.
00:26:14.50\00:26:15.84
They don't believe in death.
00:26:15.87\00:26:17.81
Essentially
that's what it is. Yeah.
00:26:17.84\00:26:19.77
And it's the
best film of its type
00:26:19.81\00:26:23.11
that I have ever seen.
00:26:23.14\00:26:24.48
It's an excellent
film, it's entertaining
00:26:24.51\00:26:26.28
and how they turned
such a theme of as a man
00:26:26.31\00:26:29.42
studying his way
into the new doctrine,
00:26:29.45\00:26:31.92
into a very entertaining film
00:26:31.95\00:26:33.39
is one of the seven
wonders of the world
00:26:33.42\00:26:35.09
because it was done,
and it was done well.
00:26:35.12\00:26:36.76
It's the kind of thing God does,
00:26:36.79\00:26:38.13
He makes gold out of dirt.
00:26:38.16\00:26:39.49
That was amazing.
00:26:39.53\00:26:40.86
Because He
knows you're just dust
00:26:40.90\00:26:42.23
and then He says,
00:26:42.26\00:26:43.60
"I'm going to
make gold out of it."
00:26:43.63\00:26:44.97
And I have to
admit when I meet people
00:26:45.00\00:26:46.33
and I'm like you're such
00:26:46.37\00:26:47.70
a behind the
scenes kind of person
00:26:47.74\00:26:49.07
but when I meet
people I'll be like,
00:26:49.10\00:26:50.44
"Have you seen
Hello and Mr. Fudge, "
00:26:50.47\00:26:51.81
and they would be like,
"Yeah, that was amazing."
00:26:51.84\00:26:53.17
And I'd be like,
00:26:53.21\00:26:54.54
"I happen to know the
producer of that film.
00:26:54.58\00:26:55.91
She happens to be a
really good friend of mine,
00:26:55.94\00:26:57.28
you know."
00:26:57.31\00:26:58.65
It's really a
privilege to know you,
00:26:58.68\00:27:00.02
it really is, yeah.
00:27:00.05\00:27:01.38
Isn't it interesting, Pat,
00:27:01.42\00:27:02.75
that the projects
you have worked on
00:27:02.78\00:27:04.12
have been related to death.
00:27:04.15\00:27:06.29
And I wonder if you
would have been able
00:27:06.32\00:27:07.82
to accomplish what you did
00:27:07.86\00:27:10.43
having not going
through what you do.
00:27:10.46\00:27:12.59
It does certainly
change a person's perspective
00:27:12.63\00:27:16.43
and it opens this
00:27:16.46\00:27:17.80
whole new world to you of people
00:27:17.83\00:27:20.44
who also experience death.
00:27:20.47\00:27:22.30
Amen.
00:27:22.34\00:27:23.67
And the fact that
you had gone through this
00:27:23.71\00:27:26.84
and you found
such comfort in knowing
00:27:26.88\00:27:28.74
what the Bible says
about death gave you
00:27:28.78\00:27:31.55
I think a strength that
other people would envy.
00:27:31.58\00:27:34.85
I mean, I remember
when I was grappling with,
00:27:34.88\00:27:36.95
is my husband going to survive,
00:27:36.99\00:27:39.55
it was so
important to know God's love.
00:27:39.59\00:27:42.92
I don't think
the best way to say
00:27:42.96\00:27:47.13
it is true triumph from tragedy.
00:27:47.16\00:27:49.53
I think the best way to
say it is beauty from tragedy.
00:27:49.56\00:27:53.27
That's what we've
heard about today.
00:27:53.30\00:27:55.30
And God can do the
same thing in your life,
00:27:55.34\00:27:58.24
believe it and
everything will change.
00:27:58.27\00:28:00.61