Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
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We're thankful
you've joined us today.
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We're going to be
talking about grief.
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The loss of a
spouse can be devastating,
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the loss of
children doubly devastating.
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But the loss of a
spouse and children together
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is completely crushing.
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It's exactly
what our guest today
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experienced more
than 20 years ago
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when she received
news that her husband Jim
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and her two oldest children,
Tony, 13, and Joey, 11,
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died in a private plane crash.
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Since then Pat
Arrabito has really
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made lemonade out of
lemons, if we can call it that.
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God threw her, has
recycled this tragedy
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into a wonderful ministry.
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Our program today is
called "A Mother's Tears"
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because there's something unique
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about the loss of children.
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Here are some of
the things that parents
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who lose children experience,
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the unfairness
of it causes anger,
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they experience guilt
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thinking they
could have prevented it,
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or guilt about things
left unsaid or undone,
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or guilt about
needing to grieve,
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or guilt about
not grieving enough,
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trauma because it
shatters assumptions
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of what should be such
as children outliving us,
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or children growing
up with their father.
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These horrible
traumas can be devastating
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to some individuals.
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And people can develop
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as a result of
losses like these,
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something called
complicated grief,
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complicated grief sets in.
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When an individual
doesn't process the grief
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and rather than
getting better, they get worse.
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Symptoms can include
extreme focus on the loss,
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and reminders of the loved one.
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Intense longing or
pining for the deceased,
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problems accepting the
death, numbness or detachment,
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preoccupation with the sorrow,
bitterness about the loss,
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inability to enjoy life,
depression or deep sadness,
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trouble carrying
out normal activities,
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withdrawing from
social activities,
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feeling that life
holds no meaning or purpose,
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irritability or agitation,
and lack of trust in others.
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I don't believe
that our guests today
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experienced complicated grief
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because of the
level of resiliency
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that God was able to give her.
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But I do believe
that she experienced
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complicated loss
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that could have turned
into complicated grief.
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But instead there
was what in psychology
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we sometimes call
posttraumatic growth.
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Post traumatic
growth is when an individual
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has a devastating experience,
but instead of getting bitter,
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they get better.
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They actually turn
that devastating experience
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into the basic
materials of personal growth.
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Some of the features
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act over the
characteristics of a person
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who experiences posttraumatic
growth is spirituality,
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faith in God,
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also social support both
before and after the trauma
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tends to lead to
posttraumatic growth.
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And then finally, what
we call acceptance coping,
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accepting the tragedy
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not in such a way
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that you accept
the notion of tragedy
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or think that
it was somehow good
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in and of itself,
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but acceptance of it as
something that happened,
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and then moving into the
future in a constructive manner
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dealing with that tragedy.
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And that's exactly what
our guest today has done.
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So glad that we have
Pat Arrabito with us.
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Pat runs LLT
productions in California,
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and she's going to be
sharing with us her story today.
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But let me
introduce my panel as well.
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This is Rob Davidson,
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professional
counselor from Maryland.
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This is Nicole Parker,
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biblical
counselor from Tennessee,
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and also teaches at
Southern Adventist University.
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And this is Dr. Jean Wright,
my friend from Philadelphia,
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which I missed
very much, by the way,
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and he is a forensic
and criminal psychologist.
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Did I say that right?
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Clinical forensic
psychologist, very close.
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Very close, I switched center.
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So clinical forensic
psychologist from Philadelphia.
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We're so glad to have
each one of you here today
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so that we can unpack this.
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But let's get into
your story first, Pat.
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I just want to ask you,
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what was it like the
moment you received that news?
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Let me tell you about it.
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It was, well,
you can all imagine.
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But my husband had
taken our two oldest boys
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on a trip to Alaska.
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He was doing some
photography up there,
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and he had enough
miles for two free tickets.
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And, of course, the
boys were outdoors kids,
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they loved the
thought of going to Alaska,
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it's a dream come true.
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So for 10 days,
they were up there,
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you know, fishing
and getting to know
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native kids and loving it.
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They flew home
on a private plane
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while they flew into
Anchorage that was the goal.
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It was late at
night, a storm blew up,
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and the plane was missing.
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I didn't know that
until one of our helpers
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had gone to the
airport to pick them up
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on that afternoon.
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They're supposed to fly
out early in the morning,
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he went to pick them up,
they didn't come off the plane.
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And I hadn't heard a word,
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and I had to call up to Alaska
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to find out that
there's small plane,
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it never landed in
Anchorage the night before.
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So, of course, there
was a bit of a shock.
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But I thought, I know
that God is taking care of them
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because first of all, we
prayed for their safe return
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the whole time they were gone,
me and my two younger kids.
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And secondly, Jim
was doing this work
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that we had watched God bless,
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and open doors
for and provide for,
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and I knew that
that job wasn't done.
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So I didn't panic.
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I called my other two
kids in and some friends
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and we prayed for them.
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And then we just had to
wait because weather was bad,
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search and rescue was out,
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but they hadn't
been able to do much.
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So it wasn't
until the next afternoon
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that I was called
by search and rescue
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that they had located the plane.
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And in the meantime,
when I went to bed that night,
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you know, I was confident
that everyone was fine.
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But I asked God, you know,
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"Talk to me, I need to
hear some words from You."
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And I opened my Bible,
and I'm not just big on,
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you know, opening it, but I did,
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I opened my Bible
and my eyes went right
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to this verse in
Job 23:10, and it said,
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"I know the way
that you've taken
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when I've tried you, you
should come forth as gold."
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And I thought, you know,
how can You give me that one?
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Is it just because it's
a trial to have to wait?
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You still, at this point,
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weren't not sure
if the status or...
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I mean, I sure am, I
was sure at this point
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that they probably had to
make an emergency landing,
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but they were okay
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because God wasn't
done with them yet.
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And the other thing was,
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I knew that God would
not allow me to lose a child.
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Because I had that
verse in 1 Corinthians 10:13,
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it says, "There's no
temptation will come to you
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that's cometh to man.
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And with every temptation,"
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and there would be
nothing that you can't bear.
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And God would try to
provide a way of escape.
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And in my heart,
I always knew that
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I couldn't bear to lose a child.
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So I knew that God would
not allow me to lose a child.
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So it wasn't really an option
for me, I come to that promise.
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And the next afternoon,
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then search and
rescue called that
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they had located the
plane, but they didn't.
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They said they were
sending a helicopter in.
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And my brother, who is a pilot
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had been keeping in
touch with them also.
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He lived in
Sacramento, you know,
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less than an hour's flight away.
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And he called them,
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then he called me
back, and he says,
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"I'm going to fly
over and just be with you
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when you get the news."
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So he flew over,
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my house was full
of people by this time,
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our neighbors, our
friends, my dad, our pastor,
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just everyone waiting for news.
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And my brother, my
dad went to pick Tom up
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with our little airport
there, and they came in,
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and they took me outside.
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And my dad and brother
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just wrapped
their arms around me.
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And they said,
there are no survivors.
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And, you know, I don't even...
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Sorry.
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I don't even know
how long I was out there.
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You know, I felt
like I was spinning out
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in the universe somewhere.
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And the words are going around,
and then I was feeling like,
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"No, but there are survivors
because I'm still here,
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and my two other
children are still here.
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And, you know, we
were, we were one,
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our family was a unit,
and Jim and I were one."
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And I felt that, you know, that,
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"No, we're still surviving."
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And finally,
someone from the house
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came out and said, "You know,
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your kids are
getting really restless,
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you need to come in.
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And I went in, and
Andy, who was seven,
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just ran toward me,
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and he just
flung out these words,
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my daddy's dead, isn't he?
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You know, as parents, you
want to protect your kids.
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It's your job to
protect your kids,
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then I couldn't protect him.
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And I had to acknowledge to him,
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even if I'd said it
wasn't true, it was true.
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And I had to be the one
that landed that blow on him.
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And I just could hardly bear it.
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And then they were,
both my kids are on my lap.
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My daughter,
Adele was almost nine.
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And they're both on my lap.
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And she said, "What
about Tony and Joey?"
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And I had to do it again.
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And I had to say
they're gone too.
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And I felt like
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we were this
tiniest dot in the universe,
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and we're this tiniest
dot of the most intense agony
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in the whole universe.
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And I thought, you
know, does God know?
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And does He see us down
here, does He know our agony,
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you know, and I
had then such a sense
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that God was there,
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I had this peace that
just filled me inside.
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And there was the sense like,
00:10:04.33\00:10:06.57
I felt like God
was saying to me,
00:10:06.60\00:10:08.77
"You know, it's My loss too.
00:10:08.80\00:10:11.31
You know, I love them
too, this is My agony too,
00:10:11.34\00:10:13.78
and this is My loss,
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and I won't get
to see them either
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until the resurrection."
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And I felt such a
sense of His presence
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in this core piece
that I knew it was not me.
00:10:21.72\00:10:24.89
And then my daughter said,
00:10:24.92\00:10:26.99
"Mom, I'm sure glad
you're not the kind of person
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that blames God for everything."
00:10:28.72\00:10:30.63
And I thought,
00:10:30.66\00:10:31.99
"Wow, does she feel
God's presence too?"
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And yet at the same
time, my son is blaming God
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because, you know,
we're all so different.
00:10:37.67\00:10:39.57
And God understands
that, and in his mind was like,
00:10:39.60\00:10:43.84
"If God is so good,
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He wouldn't have
let this happen to me."
00:10:45.94\00:10:48.58
You know, and he
has, "If God is so strong,
00:10:48.61\00:10:51.11
He would have stopped it."
00:10:51.15\00:10:52.48
You know, and
those are the things
00:10:52.51\00:10:53.85
that are going through his mind.
00:10:53.88\00:10:56.12
And yet, there was
God in the midst of it.
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And I've never
once in all the times
00:10:58.99\00:11:00.79
we've talked about this,
00:11:00.82\00:11:02.39
I've never noticed
even the slightest bit
00:11:02.42\00:11:04.43
of blaming of God
00:11:04.46\00:11:06.29
or resentment toward
Him or anything like that.
00:11:06.33\00:11:08.63
And I think that's why
you've been able to move on.
00:11:08.66\00:11:11.50
You know, I could see the ways
that God gave me preparation.
00:11:11.53\00:11:16.54
And when it happened, I
almost had this feeling,
00:11:16.57\00:11:18.67
oh, like this is what
you're preparing me for.
00:11:18.71\00:11:21.64
You know, from the
time my boys were little,
00:11:21.68\00:11:24.58
I could see God giving
me preparation for that.
00:11:24.61\00:11:27.18
How so? Can you
unpack that a little?
00:11:27.22\00:11:29.38
Yeah, I remember
reading, you know,
00:11:29.42\00:11:32.35
from one of my favorite authors,
00:11:32.39\00:11:33.72
from Ellen White,
long ago, you know,
00:11:33.76\00:11:35.96
that before things
got really bad on earth
00:11:35.99\00:11:38.29
that God will lay some
of our children to rest.
00:11:38.33\00:11:42.03
And I remember when I read that,
00:11:42.06\00:11:43.73
feeling
impressive, that was for me,
00:11:43.77\00:11:45.23
and my Tony and
Joey were probably
00:11:45.27\00:11:46.60
one and three years
old when I read that.
00:11:46.63\00:11:48.70
I remember feeling
this sense there for me.
00:11:48.74\00:11:50.57
And I remember feeling
like, "Moses' mom knew that
00:11:50.61\00:11:53.04
she had 12 years
with him, I don't know
00:11:53.07\00:11:55.21
how long I have with my kids.
00:11:55.24\00:11:56.58
But I'm
preparing them for heaven."
00:11:56.61\00:11:58.81
I know, as parents,
as Christian parents,
00:11:58.85\00:12:00.25
we all feel like
00:12:00.28\00:12:01.62
we're preparing
our kids for heaven.
00:12:01.65\00:12:03.32
But there was
more than, you know,
00:12:03.35\00:12:05.25
there was a bigger
sense of that with my boys.
00:12:05.29\00:12:08.72
In here, they were 11
and 13 when I lost them,
00:12:08.76\00:12:11.59
and I could look back and see.
00:12:11.63\00:12:13.40
And in other
ways, for some reason,
00:12:13.43\00:12:15.56
I had just wanted to
study the Book of Job.
00:12:15.60\00:12:19.23
I was on my way
through it for the second time,
00:12:19.27\00:12:20.97
I wanted to
understand Job's brilliance.
00:12:21.00\00:12:22.70
And that's really
weird because you had this
00:12:22.74\00:12:24.07
like idyllic life kind of,
00:12:24.11\00:12:26.01
and then you're
reading the book in the Bible
00:12:26.04\00:12:28.48
about tragedy.
00:12:28.51\00:12:30.28
Well, and the
other thing, you know,
00:12:30.31\00:12:31.65
I remember reading in Hebrews 2
00:12:31.68\00:12:34.32
where Jesus Himself perfected
a character through suffering.
00:12:34.35\00:12:37.79
I remember thinking,
00:12:37.82\00:12:39.15
"I've never really
suffered in my life.
00:12:39.19\00:12:41.29
Really, I've had a good life."
00:12:41.32\00:12:43.29
I would argue with that knowing
about your childhood, but...
00:12:43.32\00:12:45.79
Well, for the most part,
00:12:45.83\00:12:47.16
it was a great childhood
for the most part, yeah.
00:12:47.20\00:12:49.20
Okay.
00:12:49.23\00:12:50.57
Anyway, I mean,
there's no abuse in our home
00:12:50.60\00:12:53.03
or anything like that at all.
00:12:53.07\00:12:54.40
Okay.
00:12:54.44\00:12:56.00
Pat, here we are 20 years later,
00:12:56.04\00:12:58.87
and you have feelings
00:12:58.91\00:13:01.01
now as you're
telling the story again.
00:13:01.04\00:13:03.08
How often did
these feelings come up
00:13:03.11\00:13:05.48
where you just
intensely feel the loss?
00:13:05.51\00:13:09.02
Not as often as they used to.
00:13:09.05\00:13:11.25
I cried every day for a year,
but I don't cry every day now.
00:13:11.29\00:13:15.42
You know, time
gives you some history,
00:13:15.46\00:13:20.16
so that there's history
between the loss and now,
00:13:20.20\00:13:22.70
and those are
things you think about,
00:13:22.73\00:13:24.13
but, you know,
00:13:24.17\00:13:25.50
a loss of somebody you
love is with you forever.
00:13:25.53\00:13:28.50
Do you envision
what your kids would be
00:13:28.54\00:13:30.54
if they were still alive?
00:13:30.57\00:13:31.94
That's something that
often grieved parents do.
00:13:31.97\00:13:34.28
I sometimes think of that
00:13:34.31\00:13:35.64
because my son's
had three cousins,
00:13:35.68\00:13:38.21
three male cousins,
all of the same age.
00:13:38.25\00:13:39.81
There was five boys all born
within a year of each other.
00:13:39.85\00:13:42.52
So I've watched
my nephews grow up,
00:13:42.55\00:13:44.89
and I think about
what my boys were like,
00:13:44.92\00:13:47.32
and what they would be like now,
00:13:47.36\00:13:48.69
my oldest son,
Tony was very scholarly.
00:13:48.72\00:13:52.73
And, you know, he read
very, you know, he read widely,
00:13:52.76\00:13:58.63
he had probably read, I mean,
00:13:58.67\00:14:00.57
he'd read the Bible
through by the time he was 13,
00:14:00.60\00:14:02.97
and he had read just
scores of other books.
00:14:03.00\00:14:05.34
And he, you
know, he loved nature,
00:14:05.37\00:14:08.31
he'd go bring in fresh
road kill, and skin it,
00:14:08.34\00:14:11.11
and, you know, tan hides,
00:14:11.15\00:14:14.02
and he'd look at all the organs
and see what they were like.
00:14:14.05\00:14:16.25
And I thought, "You know,
00:14:16.28\00:14:17.62
maybe this boy
will be a surgeon.
00:14:17.65\00:14:21.19
Homeschooling mom.
00:14:21.22\00:14:22.56
Yeah, you know,
that's another thing
00:14:22.59\00:14:24.06
I'm still grateful for,
is I homeschooled my kids,
00:14:24.09\00:14:26.46
and I got to be
with them every day,
00:14:26.49\00:14:28.26
you know, I'm the one that
got to see their first steps.
00:14:28.30\00:14:30.07
And I'm the one that got
to hear their first words,
00:14:30.10\00:14:31.60
and I'm the one
that got to watch them,
00:14:31.63\00:14:34.27
you know, expand and grow.
00:14:34.30\00:14:36.10
And, you know,
00:14:36.14\00:14:37.47
much as every parent feels like,
00:14:37.51\00:14:38.84
they didn't do well enough.
00:14:38.87\00:14:40.94
I'm so grateful
00:14:40.98\00:14:42.31
for getting to be
a part of all of that
00:14:42.34\00:14:44.05
and be the one to do that.
00:14:44.08\00:14:46.61
You know,
Jennifer said something
00:14:46.65\00:14:47.98
earlier about
you didn't blame God,
00:14:48.02\00:14:49.48
and you didn't do
any of those bitter,
00:14:49.52\00:14:52.05
those bitter things against God.
00:14:52.09\00:14:53.42
I'm interested in,
00:14:53.46\00:14:55.12
did you go
through any stages at all.
00:14:55.16\00:14:56.49
I mean, I know that
the Elizabeth Kubler-Ross
00:14:56.52\00:14:58.49
stages have been kind of
fallen on disrepute lately,
00:14:58.53\00:15:01.66
but just wondering
for your situation.
00:15:01.70\00:15:03.57
Not really, you
know, when I got the news,
00:15:03.60\00:15:06.57
I knew it was true.
00:15:06.60\00:15:08.17
There was nothing in me
that, that can't be there.
00:15:08.20\00:15:12.64
I knew it was true.
00:15:12.67\00:15:14.14
I accepted it, I believed it.
00:15:14.18\00:15:16.44
I mean, you know,
I've been spending
00:15:16.48\00:15:17.81
two days praying
about it up till that point.
00:15:17.85\00:15:21.25
And while I knew that God
wouldn't let me lose a child,
00:15:21.28\00:15:24.29
God, let me lose two children
and a husband all at once.
00:15:24.32\00:15:27.76
And I could see
that God carried me.
00:15:27.79\00:15:31.53
You know, He was right there.
00:15:31.56\00:15:32.93
I wasn't alone in it.
00:15:32.96\00:15:34.30
I didn't bear the whole
weight of it all by myself.
00:15:34.33\00:15:37.07
There was such a sense
00:15:37.10\00:15:38.43
that God was
right there with me.
00:15:38.47\00:15:40.57
And like, and, you know,
00:15:40.60\00:15:42.37
he'd given me words before that.
00:15:42.40\00:15:44.34
There was a time when I'd
be so discouraged at my kids,
00:15:44.37\00:15:47.58
you know, you feel the
weight of their salvation
00:15:47.61\00:15:49.51
on your shoulders, and one time,
00:15:49.54\00:15:51.51
and my husband traveled a lot
00:15:51.55\00:15:52.88
because he was doing evangelism.
00:15:52.91\00:15:54.85
And one time he had gone,
00:15:54.88\00:15:56.22
been gone for six weeks
out of a seven week trip.
00:15:56.25\00:15:58.42
And I was just
like, this is too much.
00:15:58.45\00:16:01.32
I'm home with four
kids and all week long,
00:16:01.36\00:16:04.36
all I could see
was their faults,
00:16:04.39\00:16:05.99
and they just
loom huge before you.
00:16:06.03\00:16:08.33
And Friday night, I
put them all to bed early.
00:16:08.36\00:16:10.90
And I sat down on
the couch and I cried.
00:16:10.93\00:16:13.40
I said, "God, look at my
kids, you got to talk to me.
00:16:13.44\00:16:16.00
Look at my kids.
00:16:16.04\00:16:17.37
I can't even save
myself, much less them."
00:16:17.41\00:16:19.51
And I was so, so discouraged.
00:16:19.54\00:16:21.74
And again, it's
another of those times
00:16:21.78\00:16:23.18
when God led me right to words.
00:16:23.21\00:16:25.15
And He led me
to Isaiah 49:24, 25
00:16:25.18\00:16:28.35
where it says, you know,
00:16:28.38\00:16:29.88
"I'll contend with
him who contends with you,
00:16:29.92\00:16:31.52
and I will save your children."
00:16:31.55\00:16:33.89
You know, how much more
clearly could God have told me
00:16:33.92\00:16:36.39
it's His job not mine,
and that He will do it,
00:16:36.42\00:16:40.16
you know, and I can trust
Him, I can trust Him to do it.
00:16:40.20\00:16:44.40
So that was
another way of preparation,
00:16:44.43\00:16:46.17
and I felt like, "Wow,
you know, He already did that
00:16:46.20\00:16:48.77
for two of my children now.
00:16:48.80\00:16:50.57
Does your son
know that scripture
00:16:50.61\00:16:52.94
that's so dear to you,
00:16:52.97\00:16:54.61
the one that
right now today is...
00:16:54.64\00:16:57.71
I would guess
that he's heard it,
00:16:57.75\00:16:59.71
but, you know,
he's an adult now,
00:16:59.75\00:17:01.32
hasn't been home for a while.
00:17:01.35\00:17:03.35
But that would be
an interesting thing
00:17:03.39\00:17:04.92
to bring that up to him.
00:17:04.95\00:17:07.72
You know, I get
kind of aggravated
00:17:07.76\00:17:10.49
when I hear a sort of a
version of God caring for us,
00:17:10.53\00:17:15.66
that's almost
trivialized, where it's like,
00:17:15.70\00:17:18.57
everything ends up being okay.
00:17:18.60\00:17:20.94
With the loss
that's devastating,
00:17:20.97\00:17:22.70
everything is really never okay.
00:17:22.74\00:17:25.64
And there isn't
a little bow on it,
00:17:25.67\00:17:27.48
that you can say,
"Oh, look how pretty."
00:17:27.51\00:17:28.84
You know, it's a
constant process of God
00:17:28.88\00:17:31.85
recycling the
devastating effects of sin
00:17:31.88\00:17:34.95
into something
00:17:34.98\00:17:36.32
that produces growth in
us, growth in our characters.
00:17:36.35\00:17:38.49
But it doesn't necessarily
produce a pretty life.
00:17:38.52\00:17:41.36
And if our goal is
to have a pretty life,
00:17:41.39\00:17:44.96
and have happiness,
00:17:44.99\00:17:46.33
we're going to be
sorely disappointed on earth.
00:17:46.36\00:17:48.10
But if our goal is growth,
00:17:48.13\00:17:49.46
it's going to be a
completely different story.
00:17:49.50\00:17:50.93
There is no such
thing as just a pretty life.
00:17:50.97\00:17:53.77
There is no such thing.
00:17:53.80\00:17:56.00
You know, if
Jesus Himself suffered
00:17:56.04\00:17:58.81
in order to develop a character,
00:17:58.84\00:18:00.24
how could any of us
be like Him without that?
00:18:00.28\00:18:02.94
And I realized that,
00:18:02.98\00:18:04.31
that was part of the preparation
00:18:04.35\00:18:05.68
that I never really suffered.
00:18:05.71\00:18:07.05
I'm really going to
be like Jesus, you know,
00:18:07.08\00:18:08.72
my life will have suffering too.
00:18:08.75\00:18:10.09
And I don't know anyone
that hasn't had suffering.
00:18:10.12\00:18:13.59
That's the human
condition on planet earth.
00:18:13.62\00:18:15.89
And yet there is God,
00:18:15.92\00:18:18.29
He's right there
in the midst of it.
00:18:18.33\00:18:20.20
And He's there, you
know, for me, He comforted me,
00:18:20.23\00:18:23.37
it wasn't a painless study,
00:18:23.40\00:18:25.90
like I said, I cried
every day, over and over again.
00:18:25.93\00:18:29.10
And you think, how can
someone be alive this minute,
00:18:29.14\00:18:31.27
and they're not
alive the next minute,
00:18:31.31\00:18:32.91
how can that be, you
know, it's incomprehensible.
00:18:32.94\00:18:35.98
For our understanding, yeah,
we weren't created for death.
00:18:36.01\00:18:37.91
Yeah.
00:18:37.95\00:18:39.28
And yet, you still
had two kids to raise.
00:18:39.31\00:18:41.12
I had, still had two kids,
00:18:41.15\00:18:42.48
and what happens
to them happens to me.
00:18:42.52\00:18:43.99
Right.
00:18:44.02\00:18:45.35
And I'm wondering
about the effects,
00:18:45.39\00:18:46.72
the long term effects of
grief on them because, you know,
00:18:46.76\00:18:49.66
the little bow on it
whole pretty life thing,
00:18:49.69\00:18:51.83
like they don't
fake, kids don't pretend
00:18:51.86\00:18:54.40
everything's
okay if it's not okay.
00:18:54.43\00:18:55.93
Did you watch this...
00:18:55.96\00:18:57.30
And I would think,
you, being a mother,
00:18:57.33\00:18:59.33
and so and emphatically
connected to your kids,
00:18:59.37\00:19:01.90
it would be almost worse
what they were going through
00:19:01.94\00:19:03.41
than what you are going through.
00:19:03.44\00:19:04.77
You know, at first I thought,
00:19:04.81\00:19:06.14
"Well, God, you let
this happen to my children.
00:19:06.17\00:19:08.04
I had the ideal home.
00:19:08.08\00:19:09.51
In that, I got to
be home with my kids,
00:19:09.54\00:19:10.98
my husband and I
loved each other."
00:19:11.01\00:19:12.35
We got, you
know, in so many ways,
00:19:12.38\00:19:13.92
I had everything
that really counted,
00:19:13.95\00:19:15.68
and now I'm minus.
00:19:15.72\00:19:17.32
One of the most important
factors for a kid, a dad.
00:19:17.35\00:19:21.06
And I thought, "Well, God,
you let this happen to my kids,
00:19:21.09\00:19:23.73
but You will protect
them from the damage of it."
00:19:23.76\00:19:27.10
But no, it's not true,
00:19:27.13\00:19:28.53
they're damaged,
we're all damaged.
00:19:28.56\00:19:31.07
And I watched that, you know,
00:19:31.10\00:19:32.53
kids without a dad
00:19:32.57\00:19:33.97
have their own
unique set of problems.
00:19:34.00\00:19:36.50
And especially for
my son, he, you know,
00:19:36.54\00:19:40.04
his two older
brothers were his mentors,
00:19:40.08\00:19:42.94
his heroes, you know,
00:19:42.98\00:19:44.38
all the men in
his life were gone.
00:19:44.41\00:19:46.35
And it was like,
gravity was gone for him.
00:19:46.38\00:19:48.52
And he was always
a challenging kid,
00:19:48.55\00:19:50.99
and they helped
people led on him.
00:19:51.02\00:19:52.85
And literally, it was
like, gravity was gone for him.
00:19:52.89\00:19:55.72
And he, you know,
00:19:55.76\00:19:57.83
he didn't know
how to deal with it.
00:19:57.86\00:19:59.83
He's a very bright,
particular creative,
00:19:59.86\00:20:03.20
kind of amazing person.
00:20:03.23\00:20:05.20
He's, you know,
he developed himself
00:20:05.23\00:20:07.84
out of that in ways
that I would never expected.
00:20:07.87\00:20:11.01
Like he became a navy
seal, and I asked him,
00:20:11.04\00:20:15.14
"Is that have
anything to do with
00:20:15.18\00:20:16.85
losing your dad and brothers?"
00:20:16.88\00:20:18.21
He says, "Oh, yeah, everything,
00:20:18.25\00:20:19.78
you know, they
weren't protected, now.
00:20:19.81\00:20:21.15
I'm the ultimate protector."
00:20:21.18\00:20:22.88
You're gonna make
yourself invincible.
00:20:22.92\00:20:25.25
But that's what we always do.
00:20:25.29\00:20:26.62
If we can't
believe that God is good,
00:20:26.65\00:20:29.32
we try to get into His place
and be better than He has been.
00:20:29.36\00:20:33.26
If we can't
believe that God is love,
00:20:33.29\00:20:35.13
we either try to make
somebody else be love for us
00:20:35.16\00:20:39.17
or we try to be love
through somebody else.
00:20:39.20\00:20:41.07
We try to become our own gods.
00:20:41.10\00:20:42.44
We become codependent
in our relationships,
00:20:42.47\00:20:44.77
either by trying to be God
00:20:44.81\00:20:46.14
or trying to make
someone else be God for us,
00:20:46.17\00:20:48.74
satisfy us in those ways.
00:20:48.78\00:20:50.11
And in the same way,
00:20:50.15\00:20:51.48
if we can't believe
God is powerful enough,
00:20:51.51\00:20:53.42
we try to be powerful.
00:20:53.45\00:20:54.78
It's an essence of sin.
00:20:54.82\00:20:57.19
Yeah, we all
have our own journeys,
00:20:57.22\00:20:59.42
and your son's journey
is not over by any means.
00:20:59.45\00:21:02.42
It's part of the story,
it's not all of a story.
00:21:02.46\00:21:04.06
I still have that promise.
00:21:04.09\00:21:05.63
Absolutely.
00:21:05.66\00:21:07.00
And I still believe
it with all my heart.
00:21:07.03\00:21:08.60
I have no doubt that God
does what He says He'll do.
00:21:08.63\00:21:12.30
Beautiful faith.
00:21:12.33\00:21:13.97
How about your
relationship with him?
00:21:14.00\00:21:15.97
Is that been kind of
00:21:16.00\00:21:17.34
a stabilizing force in his life?
00:21:17.37\00:21:19.71
Probably we've had
our ups and our downs,
00:21:19.74\00:21:23.38
but I'm always there.
00:21:23.41\00:21:24.75
Yes, yes, we've
all experienced that.
00:21:24.78\00:21:27.65
You know, we have a unique bond,
00:21:27.68\00:21:30.19
and partly just
because he was a child
00:21:30.22\00:21:32.09
that required a
lot of mothering.
00:21:32.12\00:21:34.26
I always said he
was a five mom child.
00:21:34.29\00:21:36.32
I thank God for every
other mom in his life.
00:21:36.36\00:21:39.96
For my daughter, you know,
00:21:40.00\00:21:41.46
the process was
completely different.
00:21:41.50\00:21:42.93
She didn't want
to think about it.
00:21:42.96\00:21:44.90
She didn't want.
00:21:44.93\00:21:46.27
She didn't like it when
Andy and I cried every day.
00:21:46.30\00:21:48.50
Oh, he cried with you.
00:21:48.54\00:21:49.87
But she would
kind of let you off.
00:21:49.90\00:21:51.24
Yeah, she didn't really want it.
00:21:51.27\00:21:53.38
She, you know, wasn't
like she didn't acknowledge it,
00:21:53.41\00:21:55.51
but she just didn't
want to dwell on it.
00:21:55.54\00:21:57.71
Yeah.
00:21:57.75\00:21:59.08
And it took her five years
00:21:59.11\00:22:00.45
before she was
able to set herself down
00:22:00.48\00:22:03.52
and really look
at a hugeness of it.
00:22:03.55\00:22:06.22
And how old was she at that time
00:22:06.25\00:22:07.59
when she finally did that?
00:22:07.62\00:22:08.96
Fourteen. Fourteen.
00:22:08.99\00:22:10.43
And then when she was 14,
she let herself look at it,
00:22:10.46\00:22:14.43
and she made her
adult commitment to God
00:22:14.46\00:22:17.47
at that time
because she realized
00:22:17.50\00:22:18.90
there's nothing
she could do about it.
00:22:18.93\00:22:21.10
She was devastated.
00:22:21.14\00:22:22.67
She could acknowledge
it, and no way to fix it.
00:22:22.70\00:22:25.31
You know, almost
everything in life,
00:22:25.34\00:22:26.84
we have some choice over.
00:22:26.88\00:22:28.21
Yeah.
00:22:28.24\00:22:29.58
But the only choice we have
is how we're going to react.
00:22:29.61\00:22:31.51
But people can refuse to
accept a tragedy like that,
00:22:31.55\00:22:35.48
and they can push back
on it and keep asking why,
00:22:35.52\00:22:38.29
not that it's always bad
to ask why, Jesus asked why,
00:22:38.32\00:22:41.49
but you keep
asking why in such a way
00:22:41.52\00:22:43.39
that it really
amounts to not accepting.
00:22:43.43\00:22:46.80
It's a way of not accepting.
00:22:46.83\00:22:48.30
I never felt like
why was my question.
00:22:48.33\00:22:50.80
I always felt
like, my question was,
00:22:50.83\00:22:52.43
do I trust God, or
do I not trust God?
00:22:52.47\00:22:55.14
And I had already
decided that God is good.
00:22:55.17\00:22:57.61
You know, I read
here that God is good,
00:22:57.64\00:22:59.97
and I read here
that God loves me.
00:23:00.01\00:23:01.74
So if God is
good, and God loves me,
00:23:01.78\00:23:04.81
then I have to look at
everything through that lens.
00:23:04.85\00:23:06.95
And don't you think
00:23:06.98\00:23:08.32
when people look to what happens
00:23:08.35\00:23:09.68
or doesn't happen in this world,
00:23:09.72\00:23:11.05
there's evidence of
whether God is good or not,
00:23:11.09\00:23:13.09
they end up
setting themselves up
00:23:13.12\00:23:14.46
for coming to
the wrong conclusion.
00:23:14.49\00:23:16.16
But if we look at the cross,
00:23:16.19\00:23:18.29
and we look at the
story of redemption,
00:23:18.33\00:23:20.10
we see that God is good.
00:23:20.13\00:23:21.46
So we really need to take care
00:23:21.50\00:23:22.83
as to look to the right evidence
00:23:22.86\00:23:24.20
to find out if
God is good or not.
00:23:24.23\00:23:25.57
Yeah.
00:23:25.60\00:23:26.94
And this is the same experience
that Job went through.
00:23:26.97\00:23:28.30
He knew God was good,
00:23:28.34\00:23:29.70
but he couldn't stand
what was happening to him.
00:23:29.74\00:23:32.01
And same with
David in the Psalms.
00:23:32.04\00:23:34.24
David continually convinced
himself that God was good,
00:23:34.28\00:23:37.25
even though he
couldn't stand on.
00:23:37.28\00:23:38.61
He did rail on him.
00:23:38.65\00:23:40.12
Yes, he did...
00:23:40.15\00:23:41.48
Did you ever do that?
00:23:41.52\00:23:44.32
Not in your soft, gentle way.
00:23:44.35\00:23:45.99
You I know, there's so...
00:23:46.02\00:23:47.36
I did a lot of
journaling, and there were times
00:23:47.39\00:23:49.62
when I would just
start out, you know,
00:23:49.66\00:23:52.39
with all that, and I'd
always end up praising.
00:23:52.43\00:23:54.93
And I thought, this is so,
you know, this is so weird.
00:23:54.96\00:23:58.03
How can... How does it happen?
00:23:58.07\00:23:59.40
But isn't it great that
HE didn't strike you dead
00:23:59.43\00:24:01.77
with lightning bolt
before you got to that point?
00:24:01.80\00:24:05.24
You know. I
never saw God that way.
00:24:05.27\00:24:07.91
I never saw God
as punitive or...
00:24:07.94\00:24:10.55
So you felt free to
vent, if you needed to vent.
00:24:10.58\00:24:13.42
But on the other hand,
you just didn't need to really
00:24:13.45\00:24:16.25
after at least a short time.
00:24:16.28\00:24:17.62
You know, I was
more about for me, I...
00:24:17.65\00:24:19.79
When I journal, I'm like
trying to identify how I feel,
00:24:19.82\00:24:23.63
and why I feel
that way, you know,
00:24:23.66\00:24:25.96
and what triggers that feeling.
00:24:25.99\00:24:27.56
And so I'm always trying
to get down to the meaning
00:24:27.60\00:24:29.90
of how I'm feeling.
00:24:29.93\00:24:31.63
And in that process,
00:24:31.67\00:24:33.00
it really helps
me figure it out.
00:24:33.03\00:24:35.30
I mean, I come to
answers and conclusions,
00:24:35.34\00:24:37.47
just by going through
the process of understanding.
00:24:37.51\00:24:40.11
You were doing cognitive
behavioral therapy also.
00:24:40.14\00:24:43.41
Before we even knew what it was.
00:24:43.45\00:24:46.28
Essentially these kinds
of circumstances force us
00:24:46.31\00:24:50.09
to grapple with what
we really believe about
00:24:50.12\00:24:52.02
how the universe runs,
if God if really is good.
00:24:52.05\00:24:56.19
I mean, we all know that
terrible things are happening
00:24:56.22\00:24:59.23
over in Africa,
India or somewhere
00:24:59.26\00:25:01.03
to people we don't know.
00:25:01.06\00:25:02.80
But we like to
live in an illusion
00:25:02.83\00:25:05.07
that if we're good people,
and we don't do bad things,
00:25:05.10\00:25:07.90
then bad things
won't happen to us.
00:25:07.94\00:25:10.54
And that, that kind
of discounts the value
00:25:10.57\00:25:13.21
of all those other people,
00:25:13.24\00:25:14.58
is it their faults
that bad things happen.
00:25:14.61\00:25:17.61
Right, so have to
grapple with at some point,
00:25:17.65\00:25:20.52
you know, why not me?
00:25:20.55\00:25:22.75
I went through a
difficult time when we thought,
00:25:22.78\00:25:25.95
my husband was
likely to die too.
00:25:25.99\00:25:28.02
He had a terrible diagnosis,
and I had small children,
00:25:28.06\00:25:31.03
and I could see
myself at the grave.
00:25:31.06\00:25:34.80
Over and over,
it just came to me,
00:25:34.83\00:25:36.56
what are we going to do?
00:25:36.60\00:25:37.93
How old are my kids going to be?
00:25:37.97\00:25:39.57
But I also didn't
really grapple with
00:25:39.60\00:25:41.80
why because
what's the use of why me?
00:25:41.84\00:25:44.67
Why not me?
00:25:44.71\00:25:46.04
Why everybody else, but not me.
00:25:46.07\00:25:47.98
Does everybody else deserve it?
00:25:48.01\00:25:49.71
Yeah. That came to me too.
00:25:49.74\00:25:51.11
With the amount of suffering
that we see in this world,
00:25:51.15\00:25:53.58
why shouldn't it
happen to me too?
00:25:53.62\00:25:55.05
That's right.
00:25:55.08\00:25:56.42
Especially when we're the
ones who are actually equipped
00:25:56.45\00:25:59.39
to grapple with questions
about the character of God
00:25:59.42\00:26:01.82
because we see
so much in His Word.
00:26:01.86\00:26:03.96
We know that there's this
great controversy going on
00:26:03.99\00:26:06.36
between Christ and Satan.
00:26:06.39\00:26:08.56
Why should we not
have to suffer pain
00:26:08.60\00:26:11.33
in order to learn to hate sin?
00:26:11.37\00:26:13.03
So if you have
wrong expectations of God,
00:26:13.07\00:26:15.40
you're setting
yourself up for disappointment,
00:26:15.44\00:26:17.57
and from really
being estranged from God
00:26:17.61\00:26:19.01
or resentful toward Him.
00:26:19.04\00:26:20.38
If you expect Him to make
your life a piece of cake,
00:26:20.41\00:26:23.11
I'm sorry, but it's
not going to go that way.
00:26:23.14\00:26:24.85
It happens all the time.
00:26:24.88\00:26:26.21
Yeah, that people expect that.
00:26:26.25\00:26:27.58
Yeah, look how many people
reject God or throw Him out
00:26:27.62\00:26:31.22
because something
bad happened to them?
00:26:31.25\00:26:32.59
Yeah, it does.
00:26:32.62\00:26:33.96
But that's based
on false expectations.
00:26:33.99\00:26:35.79
Yeah, He gives us a
ministry, and a mission,
00:26:35.82\00:26:38.36
and a vision after tragedy.
00:26:38.39\00:26:40.53
And when you
mentioned some people
00:26:40.56\00:26:41.90
never come to grips with it.
00:26:41.93\00:26:43.26
It kind of hit me
that 20 years after,
00:26:43.30\00:26:45.40
not only have you
survived, you thrived,
00:26:45.43\00:26:47.37
and you're probably
helping many, many people,
00:26:47.40\00:26:50.47
and so that's the outcome.
00:26:50.51\00:26:51.84
I call her the
counselors' counselor
00:26:51.87\00:26:53.21
because when I need
help with something serious,
00:26:53.24\00:26:55.88
I call her, I call her in tears,
00:26:55.91\00:26:57.91
she's got a gift.
00:26:57.95\00:26:59.28
Yeah, what better
person that has experienced
00:26:59.31\00:27:00.82
what you have experienced.
00:27:00.85\00:27:02.48
To then, pour into
others who are suffering.
00:27:02.52\00:27:04.49
It amazes me that
God takes, you know,
00:27:04.52\00:27:06.42
the things that
caused us the deepest pains,
00:27:06.45\00:27:09.52
and He uses it to
bless somebody else.
00:27:09.56\00:27:11.03
Absolutely.
00:27:11.06\00:27:12.39
Things that were not His will,
00:27:12.43\00:27:13.76
but He uses to
accomplish His greater purpose
00:27:13.80\00:27:15.93
of changing us into
His image and revealing
00:27:15.96\00:27:18.10
to the universe
that He really is good,
00:27:18.13\00:27:20.67
and that sin really is bad.
00:27:20.70\00:27:22.04
And what we're going to
do during the second half
00:27:22.07\00:27:24.11
is we're going to
probe that because actually,
00:27:24.14\00:27:26.01
your life went on from there.
00:27:26.04\00:27:27.48
In fact, it was
more than 20 years ago.
00:27:27.51\00:27:29.21
So amazing things
have happened since then,
00:27:29.24\00:27:31.21
and we want to hear
about those amazing things
00:27:31.25\00:27:33.05
because you took this tragedy
00:27:33.08\00:27:35.05
and you took up
where Jim left off,
00:27:35.08\00:27:38.22
and you carried that
ministry into the future.
00:27:38.25\00:27:40.76
And God has been
able to do amazing things
00:27:40.79\00:27:42.19
through that ministry.
00:27:42.22\00:27:43.56
And we want to hear about it.
00:27:43.59\00:27:44.93
I'm assuming you
want to hear about it too.
00:27:44.96\00:27:46.46
Absolutely. Yes.
00:27:46.49\00:27:47.83
So we want you guys
to tune in on part two
00:27:47.86\00:27:50.57
of "A Mother's Tears,"
and learn how God can make
00:27:50.60\00:27:54.27
triumph out of tragedy.
00:27:54.30\00:27:56.91
God bless.
00:27:56.94\00:27:58.27