Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
00:00:27.42\00:00:29.22
We're so thankful
that you joined us today
00:00:29.26\00:00:30.89
for our program.
00:00:30.93\00:00:32.26
This is the second
half of our program
00:00:32.29\00:00:34.66
with Mike Tucker.
00:00:34.70\00:00:36.26
It's called "My Grief Observed."
00:00:36.30\00:00:38.63
And what we're
covering in this program
00:00:38.67\00:00:40.64
is obviously grief.
00:00:40.67\00:00:42.34
But also
there's a second chapter
00:00:42.37\00:00:44.11
to Michael's story of
losing his wife of 40 years.
00:00:44.14\00:00:48.08
And he knows more about
the exact amount of time.
00:00:48.11\00:00:52.11
Just not too long ago
because Mike has remarried,
00:00:52.15\00:00:54.55
and we're going
to be covering that
00:00:54.58\00:00:55.92
in this second half.
00:00:55.95\00:00:57.29
But I want to introduce
my illustrious panel here.
00:00:57.32\00:00:59.55
We've got Rob
Davidson from Maryland.
00:00:59.59\00:01:02.02
He's a professional counselor.
00:01:02.06\00:01:03.66
We've got Nicole Parker,
00:01:03.69\00:01:05.29
a biblical
counselor from Tennessee.
00:01:05.33\00:01:08.33
Paul Coneff, your name
escaped me for a moment,
00:01:08.36\00:01:10.33
marriage and family
therapist from Texas,
00:01:10.37\00:01:13.70
and author and speaker as
well, as is Nicole Parker.
00:01:13.74\00:01:17.41
And Mike Tucker,
who is the director
00:01:17.44\00:01:20.68
and principal
speaker of Faith for Today,
00:01:20.71\00:01:23.65
and the flagship
program of Faith for Today
00:01:23.68\00:01:26.51
is Christian Lifestyle Magazine.
00:01:26.55\00:01:28.08
Actually Lifestyle Magazine.
00:01:28.12\00:01:29.45
It started off
about 35 years ago
00:01:29.48\00:01:30.89
as Christian Lifestyle Magazine,
00:01:30.92\00:01:32.25
and then they shorten the name
00:01:32.29\00:01:33.62
just Lifestyle Magazine,
00:01:33.66\00:01:34.99
'cause it's
targeting non Christians.
00:01:35.02\00:01:36.46
You're also an author,
00:01:36.49\00:01:37.83
and I just want to
kind of draw attention
00:01:37.86\00:01:39.29
to this lovely book
that you've just written
00:01:39.33\00:01:41.16
called "Tears to Joy, One
Man's Journey through Grief"
00:01:41.20\00:01:44.60
by Mike Tucker, Pacific Press.
00:01:44.63\00:01:47.34
And so tell us, unfold
to us a little bit more
00:01:47.37\00:01:51.21
what was going on
00:01:51.24\00:01:52.57
as you went through
this grieving process.
00:01:52.61\00:01:54.01
And the beautiful thing
about your story is that
00:01:54.04\00:01:55.98
there was such a
strong relationship there
00:01:56.01\00:01:57.88
to begin with so.
00:01:57.91\00:01:59.25
As I said in the first
half, the deeper the love,
00:01:59.28\00:02:02.05
the more intense the grief,
how did you get through it?
00:02:02.08\00:02:04.55
We grieve greatly
because we have loved greatly.
00:02:04.59\00:02:07.12
It is the price we pay
for having experienced love.
00:02:07.16\00:02:10.59
And it was the most terrifying
00:02:10.63\00:02:13.56
and horrific moments of my life,
00:02:13.60\00:02:16.83
and experience of my
life is moving through that
00:02:16.87\00:02:19.63
because she had
been my intimate partner.
00:02:19.67\00:02:22.80
And by intimacy, we're
talking about shared emotions,
00:02:22.84\00:02:25.24
it's shared
life, shared ministry,
00:02:25.27\00:02:27.24
shared experience over
40 years with this woman,
00:02:27.28\00:02:31.55
and we had a
delightful marriage.
00:02:31.58\00:02:33.78
And so, to suddenly be alone
00:02:33.82\00:02:36.25
when you're used to
going to churches as a couple
00:02:36.28\00:02:39.55
and you find yourself
either go, traveling alone
00:02:39.59\00:02:42.62
and speaking alone
or doing a seminar alone
00:02:42.66\00:02:46.29
or you find yourself
attending church alone,
00:02:46.33\00:02:50.27
it is something wrong with
it, family gatherings alone.
00:02:50.30\00:02:54.77
You know, I'd never done
that. I'd never done that.
00:02:54.80\00:02:57.17
Did you ever have an experience
00:02:57.21\00:02:58.54
where you just wanted to
share something and then...
00:02:58.57\00:03:01.08
Yeah, oh, yeah.
00:03:01.11\00:03:02.94
You think I'm going to call her.
00:03:02.98\00:03:04.51
Well, no, you can't call her,
00:03:04.55\00:03:06.31
I'm going to tell
her when I get home,
00:03:06.35\00:03:08.25
and she won't be there.
00:03:08.28\00:03:09.62
Yeah. So yeah, all of that.
00:03:09.65\00:03:10.99
And you go
through the typical stuff,
00:03:11.02\00:03:12.35
you know, with the sadness,
the feelings of depression,
00:03:12.39\00:03:17.13
the listlessness,
the loss of interest
00:03:17.16\00:03:18.99
in things you used to do,
you don't want to do anymore,
00:03:19.03\00:03:22.46
the loss of energy,
00:03:22.50\00:03:24.10
the weeping at unexpected times,
00:03:24.13\00:03:25.90
and at expected times,
and things of that nature.
00:03:25.93\00:03:28.90
All of those symptoms,
00:03:28.94\00:03:30.27
all of those
things are part of it,
00:03:30.31\00:03:31.64
and I agree with your assessment
00:03:31.67\00:03:33.01
of Kubler-Ross,
00:03:33.04\00:03:34.38
even though I think some
of her material is great.
00:03:34.41\00:03:36.58
The truth is, you can't just say
00:03:36.61\00:03:38.71
this is what you're
going first and then second,
00:03:38.75\00:03:40.65
I never experienced
anger, I never had denial.
00:03:40.68\00:03:44.29
And if there was any denial,
it was certainly momentary
00:03:44.32\00:03:47.72
because I lived with
the reality of her loss,
00:03:47.76\00:03:50.19
so I never denied it.
00:03:50.23\00:03:51.89
Didn't you have a
thanks a lot God moment
00:03:51.93\00:03:54.53
that you're telling us about?
00:03:54.56\00:03:55.90
Can you tell us that story?
00:03:55.93\00:03:57.27
This is the
moment when I realized
00:03:57.30\00:03:58.63
that I didn't want to live
the rest of my life this way.
00:03:58.67\00:04:00.10
I was about six and a
half, seven months into this
00:04:00.14\00:04:02.07
when I was doing
evangelism for Frank Gonzalez,
00:04:02.10\00:04:04.97
who is a pastor in Florida,
00:04:05.01\00:04:06.34
used to be speaker
for La Voz De Esperanza,
00:04:06.37\00:04:09.14
and I had agreed to do
this several years beforehand.
00:04:09.18\00:04:11.65
And I thought I can
use one of the series
00:04:11.68\00:04:13.25
that I've done on Hope channel
00:04:13.28\00:04:15.02
because I've done
some evangelism there.
00:04:15.05\00:04:17.05
And, but, two months away,
00:04:17.09\00:04:18.49
he called me
said, "Oh, good news,
00:04:18.52\00:04:19.89
Hope channel's
going to broadcast us."
00:04:19.92\00:04:21.36
I said, "That's good
news for you, but not me.
00:04:21.39\00:04:23.39
I don't have anything, I
haven't done on Hope channel,
00:04:23.43\00:04:25.19
I did no material.
00:04:25.23\00:04:26.56
And the problem was
that after Gayle's death,
00:04:26.59\00:04:28.66
for quite a
while, I couldn't write.
00:04:28.70\00:04:30.63
I sit in front of a
blank computer screen,
00:04:30.67\00:04:32.50
I could not write
about anything but the loss.
00:04:32.53\00:04:35.07
I could write plenty
about that but nothing else.
00:04:35.10\00:04:37.64
So I needed new
material, and I couldn't write,
00:04:37.67\00:04:40.21
so I just studied and prayed.
00:04:40.24\00:04:42.18
And then when it
came time for the shows,
00:04:42.21\00:04:43.81
I was supposed to shoot
00:04:43.85\00:04:45.18
two sermons a
night for six nights,
00:04:45.21\00:04:47.28
so you have 12 new sermons,
00:04:47.32\00:04:49.35
and sometimes as close
to shoot time is 20 minutes,
00:04:49.38\00:04:53.82
I would finally get an outline
00:04:53.86\00:04:55.19
formulated in my mind
and I preached 12 new sermons
00:04:55.22\00:04:58.49
in six nights, and you
have to do them to time
00:04:58.53\00:05:01.76
which is a very, very,
very difficult thing to do,
00:05:01.80\00:05:04.17
especially
preaching without notes.
00:05:04.20\00:05:07.07
And I missed my times
00:05:07.10\00:05:08.44
by no worse than
two seconds per sermon.
00:05:08.47\00:05:10.47
Most of them
were either right on
00:05:10.51\00:05:12.17
or one second off, one
sermon was two seconds off.
00:05:12.21\00:05:16.01
No one does
that. No one does that.
00:05:16.04\00:05:17.71
No one does that. So
it was a major triumph.
00:05:17.75\00:05:19.65
This is a major triumph
and is purely God moment
00:05:19.68\00:05:22.32
because God has
done something for me
00:05:22.35\00:05:23.85
I'm not capable
of doing on my own.
00:05:23.89\00:05:25.95
And I'm just so high
after this experience,
00:05:25.99\00:05:28.56
I want to call and I realized
00:05:28.59\00:05:30.59
I had absolutely no one
to call to share this with
00:05:30.63\00:05:34.46
who would truly
appreciate that moment.
00:05:34.50\00:05:36.93
And then you went
back to your hotel room?
00:05:36.97\00:05:38.63
Yeah. And?
00:05:38.67\00:05:40.00
And I turn on the TV
just to kind of detox,
00:05:40.04\00:05:43.10
get over my sadness
of having no one to call.
00:05:43.14\00:05:45.31
And it opened up
the Hope channel,
00:05:45.34\00:05:47.04
and Lifestyle Magazine
was being played, a rerun,
00:05:47.08\00:05:50.08
and Gayle was
interviewing a cancer survivor.
00:05:50.11\00:05:53.11
Seriously, God, this
is what you give me now?
00:05:53.15\00:05:55.38
I just sat down
in my bed and cried.
00:05:55.42\00:05:57.89
But it was at that moment
as I was processing all that
00:05:57.92\00:06:00.69
I realized, this,
00:06:00.72\00:06:02.79
if God is going to
bless me like this.
00:06:02.82\00:06:04.76
I can't live this way.
00:06:04.79\00:06:06.13
I've got to have someone
to share this experience with,
00:06:06.16\00:06:08.73
to share my joy as
well as the sorrows of life,
00:06:08.76\00:06:11.33
it's not just
about being lonely.
00:06:11.37\00:06:13.50
You can live with
loneliness, but I couldn't.
00:06:13.54\00:06:15.84
I did not want to live
without a shared experience,
00:06:15.87\00:06:19.04
a shared
ministry, and shared joy.
00:06:19.07\00:06:20.71
Mike, you came
to that experience.
00:06:20.74\00:06:22.24
Did you say
this was seven months
00:06:22.28\00:06:23.61
after your wife had died?
00:06:23.65\00:06:24.98
Yeah.
00:06:25.01\00:06:26.35
So in the meantime,
00:06:26.38\00:06:27.72
what were you doing
for these seven months?
00:06:27.75\00:06:29.08
Were you just staying so busy
00:06:29.12\00:06:30.45
that you didn't
have time to grieve?
00:06:30.49\00:06:31.82
I became very
intentional about my grief.
00:06:31.85\00:06:34.12
I made sure that
I wrote about it,
00:06:34.16\00:06:35.79
I cried about it when I
felt that was necessary.
00:06:35.82\00:06:37.96
I talked about it as
often as I had opportunity.
00:06:37.99\00:06:40.80
Were there people
you could talk to?
00:06:40.83\00:06:42.16
Yes, yes, there were.
00:06:42.20\00:06:43.87
And then I would
talk about it publicly,
00:06:43.90\00:06:46.23
in my sermons at times.
00:06:46.27\00:06:47.60
People wanted to
know, and I told the story.
00:06:47.64\00:06:49.17
Could you hold or did
you fall apart emotionally?
00:06:49.20\00:06:52.31
My voice would crack,
but God gave me strength,
00:06:52.34\00:06:54.34
and I got through it
00:06:54.38\00:06:55.71
because I've
been so intentional.
00:06:55.74\00:06:57.08
The other thing that I did is
00:06:57.11\00:06:58.61
I tried to
anticipate the moments
00:06:58.65\00:07:00.32
that would be hardest for me,
00:07:00.35\00:07:02.62
and I did what I call
leaning into the pain.
00:07:02.65\00:07:06.49
I would do those things
earlier than I needed to
00:07:06.52\00:07:08.72
such as preaching.
00:07:08.76\00:07:10.09
I started preaching
two months after her death,
00:07:10.13\00:07:12.83
in fact within two months.
00:07:12.86\00:07:14.23
And that was tough.
00:07:14.26\00:07:15.60
I did a Mad
About Marriage seminar
00:07:15.63\00:07:16.97
before I needed to
00:07:17.00\00:07:18.53
because my staff had
canceled my schedule,
00:07:18.57\00:07:20.77
so I reengaged one,
they were ready for me.
00:07:20.80\00:07:23.61
And I did a seminar about
four months after her death.
00:07:23.64\00:07:26.31
Your first one
alone. First one alone.
00:07:26.34\00:07:28.68
I did that intentionally
00:07:28.71\00:07:30.05
because I wanted
to reclaim things.
00:07:30.08\00:07:31.41
I took two vacations to
spots we used to go to together,
00:07:31.45\00:07:35.08
and I cried through
the whole experience,
00:07:35.12\00:07:36.48
but when I did it, I
knew those remind again.
00:07:36.52\00:07:39.19
If I wanted to go
back, now I could do that.
00:07:39.22\00:07:41.72
So I was
intentional about it. Good.
00:07:41.76\00:07:43.63
There are two
things that are crucial
00:07:43.66\00:07:46.16
when I'm sitting with
somebody who is grieving.
00:07:46.19\00:07:48.80
One is, don't ignore the pain.
00:07:48.83\00:07:50.37
And it sounds like
you did not ignore.
00:07:50.40\00:07:51.73
No.
00:07:51.77\00:07:53.10
The other is don't stay
in the pain all of the time.
00:07:53.13\00:07:55.27
Exactly.
00:07:55.30\00:07:56.64
But have the support
around you and do life
00:07:56.67\00:08:00.88
as you need to do life,
so that that's a distraction.
00:08:00.91\00:08:03.71
But come back to the
pain when the pain comes back.
00:08:03.75\00:08:06.41
And this is just a process
that we have to go through
00:08:06.45\00:08:08.65
for who knows how long
00:08:08.68\00:08:10.15
because grieving
is not as you know,
00:08:10.19\00:08:12.39
it's not a set time.
00:08:12.42\00:08:13.76
No, you grieve, in some
ways, the rest of your life.
00:08:13.79\00:08:16.16
You never quit
grieving in some sense.
00:08:16.19\00:08:18.93
I do believe that I came
to a point of enough recovery
00:08:18.96\00:08:21.60
that I was able
to make decisions
00:08:21.63\00:08:23.00
and move on with my life.
00:08:23.03\00:08:24.73
But that's a tricky
thing to know how to do that
00:08:24.77\00:08:27.60
and to know when
that time is right.
00:08:27.64\00:08:29.20
How did you know?
00:08:29.24\00:08:30.97
I felt that I was able
to make clear decisions
00:08:31.01\00:08:33.71
without asking advice.
00:08:33.74\00:08:35.88
I knew that my
emotions were such that
00:08:35.91\00:08:37.81
I could talk about the loss
00:08:37.85\00:08:39.18
without tremendously
breaking up at that point.
00:08:39.21\00:08:42.98
My memories were all pleasant,
00:08:43.02\00:08:45.69
and I had a
desire to move forward.
00:08:45.72\00:08:48.62
I have a gift of life.
00:08:48.66\00:08:49.99
I don't want to
live in just a memory.
00:08:50.03\00:08:51.79
I never want to forget.
00:08:51.83\00:08:53.19
But I wanted to
be more than that.
00:08:53.23\00:08:54.66
And when I realized that,
00:08:54.70\00:08:56.03
that it was not
about filling a void,
00:08:56.06\00:08:57.73
but sharing my
life with someone,
00:08:57.77\00:08:59.87
and sharing my
life in a positive way,
00:08:59.90\00:09:03.24
then, all right, I
felt like now's a good time.
00:09:03.27\00:09:05.61
This is a positive thing.
00:09:05.64\00:09:07.28
You know, I was just
curious, Mike, with...
00:09:07.31\00:09:10.75
Jesus was a man
of grief and sorrows.
00:09:10.78\00:09:12.18
He knows a lot about
loss, a lot about pain,
00:09:12.21\00:09:14.35
a lot about suffering.
00:09:14.38\00:09:16.25
And He went through that
so He could identify with us,
00:09:16.28\00:09:18.45
so He could minister to us.
00:09:18.49\00:09:19.82
And I'm just wondering,
how did Jesus minister to you
00:09:19.85\00:09:21.89
in a special, personal way?
00:09:21.92\00:09:23.26
Everybody's story is
different, but I'm just curious
00:09:23.29\00:09:25.59
for those who are watching,
and for your own story,
00:09:25.63\00:09:28.06
how did He ministered to you
00:09:28.10\00:09:29.56
in a personal
way during this time?
00:09:29.60\00:09:31.20
You know, I think that the fact
00:09:31.23\00:09:32.57
that I had been
living with Jesus
00:09:32.60\00:09:35.74
for a vast majority of my life,
00:09:35.77\00:09:38.14
meant that there was indeed
00:09:38.17\00:09:40.08
a relationship
of intimacy there.
00:09:40.11\00:09:42.14
And it was just going back
00:09:42.18\00:09:43.51
and remembering those
intimate times with Him,
00:09:43.55\00:09:45.48
and times that I
shared with my wife with Him
00:09:45.51\00:09:47.95
that were precious to me.
00:09:47.98\00:09:49.62
And the
realization of His benefits,
00:09:49.65\00:09:52.35
so as I celebrated
what He has done to my life,
00:09:52.39\00:09:55.52
what He has given me,
00:09:55.56\00:09:56.89
it gave me comfort
and hope for that moment.
00:09:56.93\00:09:59.09
And then every sorrow,
00:09:59.13\00:10:00.63
every tear, it was taken to Him.
00:10:00.66\00:10:02.70
I just didn't
hold anything back.
00:10:02.73\00:10:04.90
Every cry, every,
00:10:04.93\00:10:06.84
and, of course,
remembering scripture,
00:10:06.87\00:10:08.20
I wasn't able to read a
whole lot at that point.
00:10:08.24\00:10:10.21
You know, if you read,
00:10:10.24\00:10:11.57
read positive light
stuff is what I say.
00:10:11.61\00:10:14.94
So I avoided a lot
of doctrinal study,
00:10:14.98\00:10:17.05
it was just Jesus at that point,
00:10:17.08\00:10:19.11
the gospels and
psalms basically.
00:10:19.15\00:10:21.28
And even then in short bits.
00:10:21.32\00:10:23.79
And that helped me
more than anything else,
00:10:23.82\00:10:25.75
just dwelling in the fact
that He's always been here,
00:10:25.79\00:10:29.36
remembering that,
remembering those times
00:10:29.39\00:10:31.29
that's special to us together,
00:10:31.33\00:10:32.69
sharing with Him
my current sorrow,
00:10:32.73\00:10:34.43
and realizing that even
when I couldn't feel it,
00:10:34.46\00:10:36.60
He was lifting me up.
00:10:36.63\00:10:38.43
And so it was a positive
experience for me overall.
00:10:38.47\00:10:41.04
I think the brain
like can't even engage
00:10:41.07\00:10:44.54
in real high order reasoning
00:10:44.57\00:10:46.51
when you're in an
emotional state like that.
00:10:46.54\00:10:48.98
Loss of judgment, the
ability to think logically,
00:10:49.01\00:10:51.88
one of the first
symptoms of grief.
00:10:51.91\00:10:53.28
Really? Yeah.
00:10:53.31\00:10:54.78
And Jesus
Himself went through that
00:10:54.82\00:10:56.48
'cause I think that's
why when He was on the cross,
00:10:56.52\00:10:58.35
He said, "Why
have You forsaken Me?"
00:10:58.39\00:11:00.66
He could have
given a Bible study
00:11:00.69\00:11:02.02
on how God was with Him,
00:11:02.06\00:11:03.39
and it was the
plan of salvation,
00:11:03.43\00:11:04.76
but He was just talking
00:11:04.79\00:11:06.13
out of His
experience in that moment.
00:11:06.16\00:11:07.63
And I think it really literally
derailed His cerebral cortex,
00:11:07.66\00:11:10.63
where He couldn't reach through.
00:11:10.67\00:11:12.03
Well, the loss
experience for me did that.
00:11:12.07\00:11:14.97
I mean, you know, you realize...
00:11:15.00\00:11:17.01
I didn't make
any major decisions
00:11:17.04\00:11:18.64
unless I asked someone.
00:11:18.67\00:11:20.34
So here's what I'm thinking,
00:11:20.38\00:11:21.71
here's what I'm
thinking about doing.
00:11:21.74\00:11:23.08
What do you think?
00:11:23.11\00:11:24.45
Does this make sense,
or should I just wait?
00:11:24.48\00:11:26.48
I need to do
this with this money.
00:11:26.51\00:11:28.28
I've got...
Should I pay this off?
00:11:28.32\00:11:29.92
What should I do?
00:11:29.95\00:11:31.29
Because, you know,
you get insurance money,
00:11:31.32\00:11:32.65
and everything else.
00:11:32.69\00:11:34.02
And so you think, all right,
00:11:34.06\00:11:35.39
what's the best
plan for this money?
00:11:35.42\00:11:36.76
So I talked to people about it.
00:11:36.79\00:11:38.13
People who were not grieving,
whose opinion I trusted.
00:11:38.16\00:11:39.63
I've told people
to do that for years.
00:11:39.66\00:11:41.33
So I took my own advice.
00:11:41.36\00:11:42.86
So you become kind
of a puddle of emotion?
00:11:42.90\00:11:44.60
Oh, yeah.
00:11:44.63\00:11:45.97
And I just wondered
just God go through that
00:11:46.00\00:11:47.84
on some level obviously,
00:11:47.87\00:11:49.20
He can never stop being
the manager of the universe
00:11:49.24\00:11:51.74
and making all kinds
of executive decisions.
00:11:51.77\00:11:53.68
But I wonder if He...
00:11:53.71\00:11:55.04
Yes, He's hurt with us. Yeah.
00:11:55.08\00:11:56.41
This is, you know,
He's says, He weeps,
00:11:56.44\00:11:59.78
and I believe He does.
00:11:59.81\00:12:01.15
I wrote a book,
00:12:01.18\00:12:02.52
my first book was entitled
"Journal of a Lonely God."
00:12:02.55\00:12:04.75
And I looked at the story
of Genesis from the standpoint
00:12:04.79\00:12:07.76
of God longing
for intimacy with man
00:12:07.79\00:12:09.92
as He worked with
these dysfunctional people.
00:12:09.96\00:12:13.06
And I think it's kind of...
00:12:13.09\00:12:14.43
It can be viewed that way
00:12:14.46\00:12:15.80
as His journal, He was
lonely, He longed for us.
00:12:15.83\00:12:17.27
There's a beautiful song that...
00:12:17.30\00:12:19.33
It's entitled
00:12:19.37\00:12:20.70
Tears Are Language
That God Understand.
00:12:20.74\00:12:23.00
When my mother died,
I would listen to that
00:12:23.04\00:12:24.71
over and over again
to let the tears flow.
00:12:24.74\00:12:27.78
And there's
something about the tears
00:12:27.81\00:12:30.11
that God has given us
00:12:30.15\00:12:31.55
because the chemicals in
tears are actually toxic.
00:12:31.58\00:12:35.85
And when the tears flow,
00:12:35.88\00:12:37.79
where actually the body's
going through a healing process,
00:12:37.82\00:12:40.76
the chemicals in joyful tears
00:12:40.79\00:12:42.49
are actually a
different composition.
00:12:42.52\00:12:43.86
That's something.
00:12:43.89\00:12:45.23
And so if you
hold in the sad tears,
00:12:45.26\00:12:46.93
it's going to toxify your body,
is that what you're saying?
00:12:46.96\00:12:49.23
Yes. Wow.
00:12:49.26\00:12:50.60
Move towards the pain.
00:12:50.63\00:12:51.97
Which is one of the reasons
why your body's immune system
00:12:52.00\00:12:53.94
functions less than
optimum during grief.
00:12:53.97\00:12:56.34
You're more
susceptible to flus, cold,
00:12:56.37\00:12:58.01
that sort of thing.
00:12:58.04\00:12:59.37
There's a lot of
studies that show that.
00:12:59.41\00:13:00.74
And you need to be extra careful
00:13:00.78\00:13:02.11
and engage in extra
self care during that period.
00:13:02.14\00:13:03.75
Exactly, exactly.
You might get some rest.
00:13:03.78\00:13:06.18
I remember my
husband and I dealt with
00:13:06.21\00:13:07.95
a very tragic
situation early in our marriage,
00:13:07.98\00:13:10.59
where two of our
friends got married
00:13:10.62\00:13:12.45
six months after we did,
and a week after the wedding,
00:13:12.49\00:13:16.09
she was killed
in a car accident.
00:13:16.12\00:13:18.69
It was very, very
painful all the way around.
00:13:18.73\00:13:22.46
And we were some
of the first people
00:13:22.50\00:13:24.00
to get to the hotel room
00:13:24.03\00:13:25.43
to meet with him
after she had died.
00:13:25.47\00:13:28.34
And I remember him
telling me a week later,
00:13:28.37\00:13:30.57
two weeks after their wedding,
00:13:30.61\00:13:31.94
we were having her
funeral in the same church.
00:13:31.97\00:13:34.21
And I remember him
telling me around then, he said,
00:13:34.24\00:13:36.08
"Nicole, I can't
sing the hymns right now.
00:13:36.11\00:13:39.78
But listening to them,
00:13:39.81\00:13:41.15
the words mean so much to me."
00:13:41.18\00:13:42.78
And I think there's
a special experience
00:13:42.82\00:13:44.82
of closeness
with the heart of God
00:13:44.85\00:13:46.42
that comes through grieving
00:13:46.45\00:13:48.52
and allowing God
to be there with us.
00:13:48.56\00:13:51.36
Some people are frightened
because they feel like
00:13:51.39\00:13:53.46
there's a
temporary loss of faith.
00:13:53.50\00:13:55.36
And that is one of
the symptoms of grief.
00:13:55.40\00:13:57.10
That's a normal
experience for a lot of people,
00:13:57.13\00:13:59.23
mainly because you've
taken such a blow to the brain.
00:13:59.27\00:14:01.87
This is a brain injury
as much as anything else.
00:14:01.90\00:14:05.21
But also one of
the chief sources
00:14:05.24\00:14:07.01
of information about God,
00:14:07.04\00:14:08.68
about His love
and concern for you
00:14:08.71\00:14:10.15
just died with this person.
00:14:10.18\00:14:11.88
So that voice has been silenced.
00:14:11.91\00:14:13.48
And all of a sudden, it
feels like God is silenced.
00:14:13.52\00:14:16.08
And it takes a while
for you to find a new voice
00:14:16.12\00:14:20.46
just to give you
the same messages.
00:14:20.49\00:14:22.12
Because our close relationships
are one of His books
00:14:22.16\00:14:25.09
really is the
place we learn about Him.
00:14:25.13\00:14:26.46
Yes, exactly.
00:14:26.49\00:14:28.06
He ministered to me through ways
00:14:28.10\00:14:30.03
that I'll never
fully be able to understand
00:14:30.07\00:14:32.13
through my marriage to Gayle.
00:14:32.17\00:14:34.04
And that was a blessing for me.
00:14:34.07\00:14:35.50
And I knew I didn't
want to live without that.
00:14:35.54\00:14:37.17
So what
happened? So what happened?
00:14:37.21\00:14:40.11
About seven, eight months in
00:14:40.14\00:14:42.08
when I realized
that I didn't work?
00:14:42.11\00:14:43.81
I knew... Did
you get any offers?
00:14:43.85\00:14:45.25
Oh, yes, I had marriage...
00:14:45.28\00:14:46.78
You know I did, I
should have told you that.
00:14:46.82\00:14:50.29
I had marriage
proposals from Twitter
00:14:50.32\00:14:52.75
from women I didn't
know, and it goes on and on.
00:14:52.79\00:14:56.56
It was frightening
to me, quite frankly.
00:14:56.59\00:14:58.83
But that's
another story in itself.
00:14:58.86\00:15:00.83
Will have to have you
back and explore that.
00:15:00.86\00:15:02.46
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
don't want to do that.
00:15:02.50\00:15:05.90
But I knew I at
least needed a friend,
00:15:05.93\00:15:09.00
someone to talk to
00:15:09.04\00:15:10.44
because I really
didn't have that.
00:15:10.47\00:15:12.14
I've been on the road so much
that any friendships that I had
00:15:12.17\00:15:15.31
were really kind of
distance at this point.
00:15:15.34\00:15:17.91
And so I just
needed someone to talk to.
00:15:17.95\00:15:19.95
Well, men are
notoriously bad at that.
00:15:19.98\00:15:21.95
I'm sorry, but
you guys are, I too.
00:15:21.98\00:15:24.15
Women are good at it,
00:15:24.19\00:15:25.52
but if she's
married, that's awkward.
00:15:25.55\00:15:26.89
That's not right.
Yeah, you can't do that.
00:15:26.92\00:15:28.26
So it needed to
be a single woman,
00:15:28.29\00:15:29.62
but that still
has its own dangers.
00:15:29.66\00:15:30.99
Yeah, exactly.
00:15:31.03\00:15:32.36
So I chose someone
00:15:32.39\00:15:33.73
who lived a
long way away from me
00:15:33.76\00:15:35.10
in another country,
00:15:35.13\00:15:36.46
because I knew
that would be safe.
00:15:36.50\00:15:37.83
Well, she was a Canadian,
and it still is a Canadian.
00:15:37.87\00:15:40.57
And so I asked her if
she would at least be willing
00:15:40.60\00:15:42.44
to be kind of an
online presence for me.
00:15:42.47\00:15:44.34
She said she would
00:15:44.37\00:15:45.71
because she was
traveling a lot as well,
00:15:45.74\00:15:47.18
and she felt alone. So
we just started talking.
00:15:47.21\00:15:49.74
I didn't process my grief,
00:15:49.78\00:15:51.38
it was a
renewing of a friendship
00:15:51.41\00:15:53.55
that I had made,
Gayle and I had made
00:15:53.58\00:15:55.85
one year on a camp meeting tour.
00:15:55.88\00:15:58.22
And we had met her there,
00:15:58.25\00:15:59.59
she at the time was the director
00:15:59.62\00:16:01.59
for Quiet Our Canada,
00:16:01.62\00:16:03.46
and was indeed a
preaching material
00:16:03.49\00:16:05.43
because she
found she had to preach
00:16:05.46\00:16:06.80
and wasn't
trained to be a preacher.
00:16:06.83\00:16:08.16
She liked my theology,
I shared sermons with her.
00:16:08.20\00:16:10.50
So we had some
discussions back and forth
00:16:10.53\00:16:11.93
about preaching and
theology and that sort of thing.
00:16:11.97\00:16:14.40
And so we just started sharing
our lives with each other,
00:16:14.44\00:16:16.91
just to talk about, you know,
00:16:16.94\00:16:18.27
and when something
exciting happened for me,
00:16:18.31\00:16:19.97
I at least had someone to tell.
00:16:20.01\00:16:21.34
Someone to
tell. Someone to tell.
00:16:21.38\00:16:22.94
Well, as the months
passed, I realized that
00:16:22.98\00:16:25.05
this was more than
just a friendship to me.
00:16:25.08\00:16:26.95
And it's all
writing at this point.
00:16:26.98\00:16:29.15
All writing that we
hadn't seen each other in years.
00:16:29.18\00:16:31.82
Really? Yeah.
00:16:31.85\00:16:33.19
Did you check
Facebook for pictures?
00:16:33.22\00:16:34.79
Of course, of course, we both,
00:16:34.82\00:16:37.03
we've friended
each other on Facebook.
00:16:37.06\00:16:39.16
And so in fact,
most of our conversation
00:16:39.19\00:16:42.96
came through
Facebook, the Messenger portion
00:16:43.00\00:16:46.74
because calling
Canada is expensive,
00:16:46.77\00:16:48.87
you know, so that was a
quick, easy way to do this,
00:16:48.90\00:16:52.07
and to have basically
a chat with each other.
00:16:52.11\00:16:54.48
So we would go back and forth.
00:16:54.51\00:16:55.94
And one night, I
realized that I talked to her
00:16:55.98\00:16:57.78
for more than two hours.
00:16:57.81\00:17:00.55
Wow. You know,
what's going on here.
00:17:00.58\00:17:03.95
I was at a convention and
was eating at a restaurant
00:17:03.99\00:17:08.86
about a mile away from my motel.
00:17:08.89\00:17:12.06
And I started walking
back, I'd walk there again,
00:17:12.09\00:17:14.86
that's what I do, and
I got a message from her
00:17:14.90\00:17:17.57
and I realized I
wanted to answer,
00:17:17.60\00:17:20.20
and I had 2% left on my battery.
00:17:20.24\00:17:22.84
I ran all the way back crossing
eight lanes of busy traffic
00:17:22.87\00:17:26.54
to get to my room to type,
00:17:26.57\00:17:28.84
and I realized
what did I just do?
00:17:28.88\00:17:30.95
What happened to me?
00:17:30.98\00:17:32.61
And I realized that something
was going on inside of me.
00:17:32.65\00:17:34.88
Oh, wow, almost got run over.
00:17:34.92\00:17:36.58
And so I had to take
a break to figure out,
00:17:36.62\00:17:38.05
is this just a
relief from grief,
00:17:38.09\00:17:39.42
or is this something of its own?
00:17:39.45\00:17:40.79
And I realized it
was something of its own.
00:17:40.82\00:17:43.16
And so eventually,
her name was Pam Lister.
00:17:43.19\00:17:48.36
Eventually when
it was appropriate,
00:17:48.40\00:17:49.73
I said, "Would
you ever be interested
00:17:49.76\00:17:51.10
in taking our
friendship to the next level?"
00:17:51.13\00:17:53.54
She didn't
answer me for 24 hours.
00:17:53.57\00:17:54.90
Okay, would you call
that courting or dating?
00:17:54.94\00:17:57.37
Yes.
00:17:57.41\00:17:59.97
I don't know what it is.
I don't have a term for it.
00:18:00.01\00:18:02.28
Just next level relationship.
00:18:02.31\00:18:03.65
Yeah, so she wrote
back after 24 hours
00:18:03.68\00:18:07.15
because she had
to think on this.
00:18:07.18\00:18:08.52
Went dark on you for 24...
00:18:08.55\00:18:09.88
What was that 24
hours like for you?
00:18:09.92\00:18:11.25
It was scared me to death.
00:18:11.29\00:18:12.62
I said, "Well, I've blown this,"
00:18:12.65\00:18:13.99
you know, obviously I went out
of this business way too long.
00:18:14.02\00:18:16.73
So she wrote back and said,
00:18:16.76\00:18:18.33
"Yeah, I'd be
interested in that."
00:18:18.36\00:18:19.69
And then I realized that I
didn't know what that meant.
00:18:19.73\00:18:21.26
So I wrote back is that,
00:18:21.30\00:18:22.63
"I don't know
what that means today.
00:18:22.66\00:18:24.00
It's been over 40
years since I dated anyone
00:18:24.03\00:18:25.77
other than my wife.
00:18:25.80\00:18:27.14
So I want you to know
that I'm not talking about
00:18:27.17\00:18:29.44
sending you my class jacket,
00:18:29.47\00:18:30.81
my class ring and going steady."
00:18:30.84\00:18:32.81
And she wrote back, "Lol,
I understand it, all right,
00:18:32.84\00:18:35.08
we're talking about
dating with an eye to marriage."
00:18:35.11\00:18:37.08
I said, "Great, All
right so we have..."
00:18:37.11\00:18:38.71
Dating with an eye to marriage?
00:18:38.75\00:18:40.08
An eye to marriage.
00:18:40.12\00:18:41.45
She puts this in
an interesting way.
00:18:41.48\00:18:43.02
Pam has a great sense of humor.
00:18:43.05\00:18:44.39
She says, when
you're in your 20s,
00:18:44.42\00:18:45.79
you can date for 5, 6, 7 years
00:18:45.82\00:18:47.46
without
declaring your intentions.
00:18:47.49\00:18:49.59
When you're in
your 30s, two years,
00:18:49.62\00:18:50.96
you need to declare
intention, 40, 6 months.
00:18:50.99\00:18:54.20
She says, I'm 50s, and
50s, it's a cup of coffee.
00:18:54.23\00:18:59.43
You know, I'd be that quick.
00:18:59.47\00:19:00.80
If you can't
sit across the table
00:19:00.84\00:19:02.20
and realize you can't stand
the sound of his breathing,
00:19:02.24\00:19:04.57
it's time to end this,
00:19:04.61\00:19:05.94
and to move on
to something else.
00:19:05.97\00:19:08.14
And so, and
again, that's sort of
00:19:08.18\00:19:09.64
humorous way of putting it.`
00:19:09.68\00:19:11.55
At our age, we both
knew what we wanted.
00:19:11.58\00:19:14.68
This wasn't about
tasting and saying,
00:19:14.72\00:19:16.52
"Well, you know,
what's over here?
00:19:16.55\00:19:17.89
Who's this person
like?" I know what I wanted.
00:19:17.92\00:19:19.39
You wanted a companion. Exactly.
00:19:19.42\00:19:20.99
Yeah. And she
wanted the same thing.
00:19:21.02\00:19:23.56
And so when we began
to talk about values,
00:19:23.59\00:19:25.83
and dreams, and
hopes, and theology,
00:19:25.86\00:19:28.16
and faith, and aspirations,
and family, and ministry,
00:19:28.20\00:19:31.63
we realized that there
was a good intersection there.
00:19:31.67\00:19:33.80
That's great.
00:19:33.84\00:19:35.17
And so... Then you...
00:19:35.20\00:19:36.54
Okay, so you were
just kind of chatting,
00:19:36.57\00:19:37.91
and then you started
after you popped the question,
00:19:37.94\00:19:39.94
so to speak, then you started
getting more intentional,
00:19:39.97\00:19:42.24
would this really work?
00:19:42.28\00:19:43.61
Yeah, about our
conversations, online still.
00:19:43.65\00:19:44.98
Even at your age,
00:19:45.01\00:19:46.35
you were still hashing
through the issues before.
00:19:46.38\00:19:48.25
You better, you
better. Yeah, I'm glad.
00:19:48.28\00:19:51.65
There's no fool
like an old fool.
00:19:51.69\00:19:53.09
I know that.
00:19:53.12\00:19:55.26
And I didn't
want to be that guy.
00:19:55.29\00:19:56.62
Yeah, I hear you.
00:19:56.66\00:19:58.13
I've dealt with marriages
and taught healthy marriages
00:19:58.16\00:20:01.16
for I don't know, decades.
00:20:01.20\00:20:03.06
How stupid would it
be for me to marry poorly
00:20:03.10\00:20:05.57
at this point of
my life, you know.
00:20:05.60\00:20:07.24
So at what point
after your wife's death
00:20:07.27\00:20:09.60
were you starting to realize
00:20:09.64\00:20:10.97
that you were
interested in another lady?
00:20:11.01\00:20:13.54
The most intense
period of pain for me
00:20:13.58\00:20:15.24
lasted 9 to 10
months, which is typical.
00:20:15.28\00:20:18.58
And so it was sometime between
the 10 month and the year mark
00:20:18.61\00:20:21.58
that I began to
realize something was going on.
00:20:21.62\00:20:24.35
And I thought,
this is frightening.
00:20:24.39\00:20:26.62
And so I wanted to
make sure what it was.
00:20:26.65\00:20:29.92
And so I took a break.
00:20:29.96\00:20:31.53
And, but when we were engaged,
00:20:31.56\00:20:33.50
I realized for
sure what this was,
00:20:33.53\00:20:35.03
and I didn't look back.
00:20:35.06\00:20:37.53
You took a break from
your relationship with Pam?
00:20:37.57\00:20:39.57
I took a brief break, I said,
00:20:39.60\00:20:40.94
"We both need to
filter through this
00:20:40.97\00:20:42.74
to make sure that
this is the right thing."
00:20:42.77\00:20:44.84
I said, "Me in particular,
you don't want to marry someone
00:20:44.87\00:20:47.28
if this moves that direction,
00:20:47.31\00:20:49.61
who is looking at you
as a relief from grief."
00:20:49.64\00:20:53.01
Said, "That's not, you
deserve better than that."
00:20:53.05\00:20:55.32
What was it like for
your one year anniversary
00:20:55.35\00:20:57.12
of your wife's death?
00:20:57.15\00:20:58.49
Were you with Pam or
were you not with Pam?
00:20:58.52\00:20:59.85
I was not with
Pam, I was with family.
00:20:59.89\00:21:02.59
And that was by design.
00:21:02.62\00:21:04.03
I feel like that was
important for them, for me,
00:21:04.06\00:21:07.60
for the whole thing.
00:21:07.63\00:21:08.96
And I asked that because
00:21:09.00\00:21:10.33
anniversaries are very important
00:21:10.37\00:21:11.70
when it comes to
grieving, the loss of somebody.
00:21:11.73\00:21:14.00
And how we spend that
anniversary is also...
00:21:14.04\00:21:15.90
Birthdays, anniversaries,
anniversary of her death,
00:21:15.94\00:21:20.48
wedding anniversary, all
of those things were key.
00:21:20.51\00:21:22.98
And all of those
were spent with Pam.
00:21:23.01\00:21:24.35
And it's good to be
able to spend it in a way
00:21:24.38\00:21:26.21
that is honoring the
person that you're missing.
00:21:26.25\00:21:29.38
And I was very
intentional about doing that.
00:21:29.42\00:21:31.25
I wanted to make
sure that this...
00:21:31.29\00:21:33.72
Again, I was sharing with you
00:21:33.76\00:21:35.12
the research is
that, men, in particular,
00:21:35.16\00:21:37.43
who have had a long
term successful marriage,
00:21:37.46\00:21:39.89
when they lose their
spouse, they tend to remarry
00:21:39.93\00:21:41.96
within 10 to 15 months,
simply because you realize
00:21:42.00\00:21:45.43
that that is your
only shot at intimacy.
00:21:45.47\00:21:48.34
When you've had intimacy,
when you genuinely had that,
00:21:48.37\00:21:51.07
you realize you don't
want to live without it.
00:21:51.11\00:21:52.64
And you realize it's not going
to come in any other direction.
00:21:52.67\00:21:54.84
Well, and also that
you realize it's doable,
00:21:54.88\00:21:56.61
I did it for all
that time, you know.
00:21:56.64\00:21:58.31
And that intimacy like
we talked about earlier
00:21:58.35\00:22:00.32
is sharing that life,
having someone to turn to
00:22:00.35\00:22:02.75
and say, "Hey,
here's this God moment."
00:22:02.78\00:22:04.69
You don't get married in
order to take care of your pain.
00:22:04.72\00:22:07.69
That's a mistake.
00:22:07.72\00:22:09.16
You get married, not to
fill something you don't have,
00:22:09.19\00:22:12.09
but to share something you have,
00:22:12.13\00:22:14.23
and to share of someone else's.
00:22:14.26\00:22:16.43
So if my life is good and full,
00:22:16.46\00:22:19.67
then I want to share
that life with someone.
00:22:19.70\00:22:21.10
You know, that's
interesting 'cause Paul says,
00:22:21.14\00:22:22.54
"If I have not
love, you expresses love
00:22:22.57\00:22:24.91
as something you
can actually possess."
00:22:24.94\00:22:26.74
Obviously, we can't generate
that God gives it to us,
00:22:26.78\00:22:29.04
but we can have it, you know.
00:22:29.08\00:22:30.71
And that's a good
thing to do is to have it
00:22:30.75\00:22:32.98
in order to share
it instead of thinking
00:22:33.01\00:22:34.45
of someone else
meeting your needs.
00:22:34.48\00:22:35.95
Of course, that's a great
principle for any marriage
00:22:35.98\00:22:37.85
is to be able
to be ready to give
00:22:37.89\00:22:39.55
and not just to
what I can get out of it.
00:22:39.59\00:22:41.26
Get love...
00:22:41.29\00:22:42.62
In our culture, people
often use the word intimacy
00:22:42.66\00:22:45.29
almost as a synonym
for sexual expression.
00:22:45.33\00:22:48.40
But in a godly
marriage, it's so much richer.
00:22:48.43\00:22:52.83
That's just one aspect,
00:22:52.87\00:22:54.20
kind of the fruit
of the kind of intimacy
00:22:54.24\00:22:56.50
that people
share in every aspect.
00:22:56.54\00:22:58.44
And by and large it's something
that men have to learn.
00:22:58.47\00:23:00.08
Yeah. Right.
00:23:00.11\00:23:01.44
We don't come to that
as naturally as women do.
00:23:01.48\00:23:03.24
Women get that, I think.
00:23:03.28\00:23:04.61
Yeah, I often think,
"Man, I'm so glad I'm a woman
00:23:04.65\00:23:07.58
because I have this
rich network of friendships
00:23:07.62\00:23:10.05
whereas I told my husband,
00:23:10.09\00:23:11.42
if I die, you better remarry,"
00:23:11.45\00:23:13.32
because he needs that.
00:23:13.36\00:23:14.86
Yeah, I know, I have
that network of people.
00:23:14.89\00:23:17.86
We call each other all the time
when we're having a rough time.
00:23:17.89\00:23:20.20
We just know, and we know
why the other person called.
00:23:20.23\00:23:22.30
It's not like, do you
have some item of business
00:23:22.33\00:23:24.07
that you need to address.
00:23:24.10\00:23:25.43
It's like, yeah, I know
you're having a bad day.
00:23:25.47\00:23:26.80
And frankly, it would
be awkward for most men
00:23:26.84\00:23:28.50
to call a buddy.
00:23:28.54\00:23:29.87
I'm really having a bad day.
00:23:29.90\00:23:31.94
Butch up, dude, come on.
00:23:31.97\00:23:34.98
You know, it would just be
awkward for most of the men.
00:23:35.01\00:23:36.68
But don't you think
it would be good for men
00:23:36.71\00:23:38.21
to learn how to do that?
00:23:38.25\00:23:39.58
It would be
good, but I don't know
00:23:39.61\00:23:40.95
that we're going to
get past that frankly.
00:23:40.98\00:23:42.32
Or you'll be on the
end of the growth curve
00:23:42.35\00:23:44.62
where we're way ahead, you bet.
00:23:44.65\00:23:45.99
I think it's a good thing
to stretch in that direction.
00:23:46.02\00:23:47.92
It would be good, I just
wasn't able to stretch that far.
00:23:47.96\00:23:50.83
Obviously, we
need women to help us.
00:23:50.86\00:23:53.19
And what do the women need
that we can help them with?
00:23:53.23\00:23:55.70
You can keep us
alive during war time,
00:23:55.73\00:23:58.43
you know, make some
money for food and stuff.
00:23:58.47\00:24:00.60
We have some...
00:24:00.64\00:24:01.97
The Bible does
say it is not good
00:24:02.00\00:24:03.34
for the man to be alone,
00:24:03.37\00:24:04.71
it didn't say that about woman.
00:24:04.74\00:24:06.07
That's true
because we're never alone.
00:24:06.11\00:24:07.44
And the research backs it
up because men die younger.
00:24:07.48\00:24:09.51
We die younger.
00:24:09.54\00:24:10.88
It's more critical for
men to be partnered than it is
00:24:10.91\00:24:13.15
or at least in relationship
of some kind than women.
00:24:13.18\00:24:15.08
Bachelor's die
sooner than married man
00:24:15.12\00:24:17.22
even though you may
think she's killing you,
00:24:17.25\00:24:18.65
actually, she's
toughening you, apparently.
00:24:18.69\00:24:20.09
Yeah, we're keeping you
alive. Yeah, keeping you alive.
00:24:20.12\00:24:22.12
So I have a
question like, can you discus
00:24:22.16\00:24:25.99
memories from
your marriage with Pam?
00:24:26.03\00:24:28.93
Yes. How does that go?
00:24:28.96\00:24:30.87
And she wanted me
to be able to do that.
00:24:30.90\00:24:33.74
Then she will bring
that up, she'll ask,
00:24:33.77\00:24:35.74
"Where the two of you ever here?
00:24:35.77\00:24:38.41
What was that like?"
00:24:38.44\00:24:40.11
And so, you know,
there's certain aspects of that
00:24:40.14\00:24:43.04
that she's curious about,
00:24:43.08\00:24:45.08
and wants me to
be able to share?
00:24:45.11\00:24:46.55
Is it difficult?
Does it feel weird?
00:24:46.58\00:24:48.48
It does, it does.
00:24:48.52\00:24:49.92
And, you know, therefore,
I think that we both decided
00:24:49.95\00:24:52.29
to limit how much of that we do
00:24:52.32\00:24:54.52
simply because I
want to make sure
00:24:54.56\00:24:56.52
that she knows that
what I have with her...
00:24:56.56\00:24:59.43
You're in the
present. Is his own thing.
00:24:59.46\00:25:01.83
You're creating
memories with her.
00:25:01.86\00:25:03.20
Exactly. Yeah.
00:25:03.23\00:25:04.57
We're making a life together.
00:25:04.60\00:25:05.93
That's what made the other good.
00:25:05.97\00:25:08.30
It's what is
going to make us good.
00:25:08.34\00:25:10.47
We share ministry,
we share spirituality,
00:25:10.51\00:25:12.71
we share a life together.
00:25:12.74\00:25:14.38
And it's not about
trying to replicate anything.
00:25:14.41\00:25:17.15
This is a new thing.
00:25:17.18\00:25:18.51
Pam's a very different
personality than Gayle,
00:25:18.55\00:25:20.42
very different.
00:25:20.45\00:25:21.78
Isn't it wonderful that
she actually is inviting you
00:25:21.82\00:25:24.25
to give her a
part of who you were
00:25:24.29\00:25:26.99
because that's a part
of who you still are today?
00:25:27.02\00:25:28.79
She's a godly
woman. She recognizes this.
00:25:28.82\00:25:31.29
She's a wise woman.
00:25:31.33\00:25:32.66
And I'm honored that she
would share her life with me
00:25:32.69\00:25:34.70
and be willing to do that.
00:25:34.73\00:25:36.73
That means she's got to have
00:25:36.77\00:25:38.10
a lot of self
confidence too to be able to do.
00:25:38.13\00:25:41.70
This is not an easy
thing. Gayle was a...
00:25:41.74\00:25:44.77
I figured that in
many people's eyes
00:25:44.81\00:25:46.94
was bigger than I.
00:25:46.98\00:25:48.51
When we drive up to the church,
00:25:48.54\00:25:49.91
I used to pastor
with Gayle for 17 years.
00:25:49.94\00:25:52.51
They'd build a
new youth complex,
00:25:52.55\00:25:54.02
huge two story's structure,
00:25:54.05\00:25:55.38
Gayle's name is
on the side of it.
00:25:55.42\00:25:56.75
They've named it after her.
00:25:56.79\00:25:58.12
Because she was just
00:25:58.15\00:25:59.49
so impacting in
that congregation?
00:25:59.52\00:26:00.86
Exactly, exactly. Wow.
00:26:00.89\00:26:02.92
It was so impactful
on the lives of children
00:26:02.96\00:26:05.26
and families and everyone
else in the congregation.
00:26:05.29\00:26:08.26
That's how they honored
her, by building this thing
00:26:08.30\00:26:10.57
and naming it after her.
00:26:10.60\00:26:12.20
Well, you know, to
drive up and to visit a church
00:26:12.23\00:26:15.84
where my children still attend
00:26:15.87\00:26:17.54
to watch something my
grandchildren are doing.
00:26:17.57\00:26:19.57
And she gets out
of that car with me
00:26:19.61\00:26:21.21
and walks past that name.
00:26:21.24\00:26:23.38
That takes some self
confidence to do that.
00:26:23.41\00:26:26.38
If she was sinful and selfish,
00:26:26.41\00:26:28.68
she'd feel she was
standing in someone's shadow.
00:26:28.72\00:26:30.62
Yeah, but she
doesn't believe that,
00:26:30.65\00:26:32.65
and I make sure that
that I try not to do anything
00:26:32.69\00:26:35.79
that would make her think that.
00:26:35.82\00:26:37.16
Contribute to that. Yeah.
00:26:37.19\00:26:38.53
She's got her own things.
00:26:38.56\00:26:39.89
She is a unique,
wonderful, talented...
00:26:39.93\00:26:42.10
She's a songwriter, isn't she?
00:26:42.13\00:26:43.67
She's a singer, not a writer.
00:26:43.70\00:26:45.03
But she's got two CDs out,
and she's a gospel musician.
00:26:45.07\00:26:50.04
And she's got a
unique story of her own,
00:26:50.07\00:26:53.07
quite capable woman,
00:26:53.11\00:26:54.64
and I'd tell she's
been successful in business,
00:26:54.68\00:26:57.21
successful in ministry.
00:26:57.25\00:26:59.08
So I'm honored that
she would share her life.
00:26:59.11\00:27:01.28
How do you deal
with the Canadian thing?
00:27:01.32\00:27:03.49
You know that...
00:27:03.52\00:27:04.85
We have hired an
attorney to make sure
00:27:04.89\00:27:06.79
that we do all the
immigration process correctly.
00:27:06.82\00:27:09.39
She's living with
you in the States?
00:27:09.42\00:27:10.93
Yeah, in Texas, yeah.
00:27:10.96\00:27:12.73
She went from Canada to Texas.
00:27:12.76\00:27:14.36
You pray for every
summer, would you please?
00:27:14.40\00:27:17.30
Yes, my wife will
identify with this.
00:27:17.33\00:27:19.90
Yes, yeah, you're right, yeah.
00:27:19.93\00:27:21.67
So, you know, that
also speaks well of her,
00:27:21.70\00:27:23.77
the fact that she was
able to leave her life there
00:27:23.81\00:27:27.44
to come and join me.
00:27:27.48\00:27:28.84
That's amazing.
00:27:28.88\00:27:30.21
That says a lot of
love written all over that.
00:27:30.25\00:27:31.65
That's cool. It does, it does.
00:27:31.68\00:27:33.01
And I will never
forget that sacrifice.
00:27:33.05\00:27:34.75
Didn't we read
that about in that,
00:27:34.78\00:27:36.12
in the Bible with the roof?
00:27:36.15\00:27:37.62
Yeah. It's right.
00:27:37.65\00:27:38.99
"Your people will be my
people, your God, my God."
00:27:39.02\00:27:40.92
Well, unfortunately,
we have to wind up here.
00:27:40.96\00:27:42.62
But this has
been very, very rich.
00:27:42.66\00:27:44.56
I know that it's
ministered to many of you
00:27:44.59\00:27:46.66
that are maybe
struggling with your own grief.
00:27:46.70\00:27:48.80
This has been a
very happy ending here.
00:27:48.83\00:27:50.90
And God has a happy
ending for you in the future.
00:27:50.93\00:27:53.60
Hang on. It gets better.
00:27:53.64\00:27:55.60
God is good. See you next time.
00:27:55.64\00:27:57.77