Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
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We're so, so thankful
that you joined us today
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for our program
called My Grief Observed,
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My Grief Observed.
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Our guest today is Mike Tucker,
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someone who is preaching I
have enjoyed for many years,
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and I have to say that
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there's a certain
warmth to the way he preaches
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that makes me feel like
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he has just hugged
the entire congregation
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with the love of a Father.
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It's just something
really special about it.
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And the other thing is
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that I could tell even
before I knew factually
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and had asked him that
he had been in counseling
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and not that you've
been in counseling, sorry.
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You know, both may
be true. Yeah, exactly.
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But that he was a counselor,
and then that was, of course,
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verified recently.
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You know, counseling changes
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the way you think
and the way you are,
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and you never see
things quite the same
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after you've counseled
people, and that's true.
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And it comes
through in your preaching.
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And I've been really
blessed by it over the years.
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And I'm sure that in
the course of your ministry,
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you have counseled many
people through grief, true?
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I used to teach grief recovery
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when I was
working as a chaplain.
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So, you know,
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it's a topic that I
was versed in academically,
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obviously, and
experientially as a counselor.
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But when you go through
yourself, it's interesting too.
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And that's why we're
calling it My Grief Observed.
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And I just want to
open with a couple thoughts.
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There are many theories of grief
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and probably the most popular
is Elisabeth KA 1/4bler-Ross,
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and she came up with the theory.
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And by the way, she
initially formulated her theory
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for people who were dying.
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Her book was called
"On Death and Dying."
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But they realized
that it applied to people
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that were losing people as well.
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And she broke grieving
down into five stages, denial,
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anger, bargaining,
depression, and acceptance.
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And I think
there's some logic to that.
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But people have objected to that
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and any formula for grieving
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simply because it isn't
that tamable of an animal,
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it cannot be, you know,
corralled into distinct stages
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as if it's a task on a
list that you check off.
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And that may be the
very thing about grief
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that kind of makes
it special in a way
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because it's so
very inconvenient.
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If you look at human life
as something that's functional,
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grief really has
no function to it.
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But that's the very
thing about it that makes it...
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It proves that we are
made in the image of a God
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who grieves.
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And God grieves
because God is love,
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and you cannot truly love
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without truly
grieving someone you lose,
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but that grieving is
extremely inconvenient,
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it serves no functional purpose,
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you just do it because
it's part of that love.
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And we made in
God's image also grieve
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because it's part of
the fact that we love.
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And I know that you have a story
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about your own story
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of grieving of
losing your wife recently.
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And so I wondered if you could
talk a little bit about that,
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just give us the background
and launch into the story.
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Sure.
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Gayle and I were
married as I told you before,
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40 years, 3 months,
13 days, and 3 hours.
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Wait, wait, 40 years. Okay.
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Three months,
thirteen days, and three hours.
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And it's amazing how, you know,
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you take the
time to count that up
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when it's been that
significant of a relationship.
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She was, by far,
my very best friend,
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and the person with whom
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I was most intimate emotionally,
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spiritually every other way.
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We shared ministry
together, we traveled together,
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we did everything together.
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We had preached together,
we wrote books together.
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You name it, we've
done television together,
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all of it together,
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95% of our time
was spent together.
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And so when she got sick
which happened rather suddenly
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because she was 60 years old
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and still playing
volleyball every week
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diving across gym
floors to dig a ball,
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you know, I mean, she...
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Incredible health.
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And then boom, we
had the first symptom,
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which was actually
symptoms of a stroke.
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And what happened is
she had pancreatic cancer
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that was stage four, it
already spread to the liver,
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which created a symptom,
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a condition they
call sticky blood.
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It created a clot in her thigh,
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and every time one of
those clots broke through,
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it gave her a stroke,
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which was the
first inkling that we had
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that anything was
wrong with her at all.
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Was it a real stroke or
just looked like a stroke?
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It was a real stroke
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because the blood
clot went to her brain.
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And so she lost
use of the right hand
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for a time because of that.
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Eventually, one
stroke took away her sight,
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she lost the ability to
tell the difference by feel
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between a wool
sweater and a silk blouse,
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so she just couldn't tell.
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She knew she had
something but couldn't tell.
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And so the first
symptom came on March 3,
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we were in
Vancouver, British Columbia
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doing a "Mad About Marriage."
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She made a presentation
even that way in high hills
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for 3.5 hours in
the afternoon 4 hours.
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No one could tell
anything was wrong.
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The next day on March 6,
I got her back to Dallas.
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And when we landed, I said,
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"Which hospital
do you want to go to
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'cause you're not going home?"
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And she told me, we went in,
they took her directly into ER.
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First, they diagnosed strokes,
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and then 10 days
later after a biopsy
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and MRIs and CAT
scans and hospitalizations,
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they diagnosed a
stage four pancreatic cancer
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that had already
spread to the liver.
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And that was March
16, she died April 10.
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Wow!
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And so basically they
told me to take her home
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because there was
nothing they could do.
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And, you know, I've
worked in the hospital settings
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as a chaplain, and I knew that.
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When you say pancreatic cancer,
unless the Lord intervenes,
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death is going to ensue.
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And so I took her home.
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And my job then was not
only to work with family
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in order to
manage meds and symptoms
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and keep her comfortable.
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And by the way, she
did never have to use
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anything stronger
than Advil or Tylenol
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till she went into a final coma
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like two days before her
death, which was a blessing.
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Really? It was a
very real blessing.
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But my job then was also
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to manage the
countless number of people
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who wanted to come visit her.
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Family, friends,
long-term acquaintances,
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and so did that...
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I had the
opportunity also to talk to her
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about her impending death,
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and she had no
fear, none whatsoever.
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I asked her if she was angry,
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which is a typical
thing that people go through.
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She said, "Why would I be angry?
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I've had 60 years
of immaculate health
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and some people never get a day.
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I've had 40 years
of a marvelous marriage
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and wonderful ministry
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and some people
never know that."
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She talked about her
children, her grandchildren,
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her extended family friends.
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She said, "Should
I be angry with God
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because all of that lasted
only 60 years and not 80?"
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She said, "That
seems to be ungrateful,
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and I won't be ungrateful."
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And that was her attitude.
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It didn't surprise me
that that was her attitude.
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And that's how she died
with that kind of comfort
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and that kind of
confidence in her Lord.
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Mike, I'm just thinking
how she ministered to you
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at the very time.
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Yeah. Yes, she did.
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That she would try
to minister to her.
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Yeah, she did.
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And I forgot to
introduce my counselors here.
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So let me do that just
briefly this is Rob Davidson,
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about to be a licensed counselor
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from Maryland, true?
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Yes. So glad you're here.
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Nicole Parker,
Biblical Counselor
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and University
Professor from Tennessee,
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Southern Adventist University,
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Paul Coneff,
marriage and family therapist
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from somewhere in
Texas, I don't remember where.
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Keene.
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Keene, Texas. Keene, Texas.
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We're neighbors
almost. Oh, yeah, I guess.
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So sorry, I didn't mean
to break your flow here,
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but I forget
these important people.
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You got to get that in there.
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These are
important people. Yeah.
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But, no, you're right,
she did minister to me.
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It didn't surprise me
though that her attitude
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was what I just shared with you,
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what surprised me is that
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that had been my
attitude because...
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You were angry?
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No, my attitude
was the same as Gayle's
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that it was no
anger, there was gratitude.
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And that's surprising
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because anger
was my go-to emotion
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for most of my life.
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In order to survive basically
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because of my
growing up situation,
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anger became a part
of my life experience,
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and it was the
thing that always saved me
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until it got too heavy
to carry and eventually...
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Can you unpack
that a little maybe?
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Yeah.
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When you live
in a home of anger,
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you respond with anger.
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I see.
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And you can either be
super compliant, which says,
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I'm wrong, I'm wrong,
or you can be super anger,
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which says, you're
wrong and I deserve better.
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And actually the anger
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was a healthier
response for me I think
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because it said,
I deserve better.
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So you were defiant.
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I was defiant.
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Hard to believe. Yeah.
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Well, you know, I have
my moments hang around.
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Okay. All right.
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But, you know,
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I've gone through
another experience
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of loss of a
different nature earlier
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and had to experience
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a great deal of
depression over that.
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Really?
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And I was probably
depressed for about 13 years
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until the irritant itself,
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and it's too
longer story to tell.
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It was finally removed, it
wasn't anything I had done,
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it was a circumstance
of a life that was unfair.
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It had oppressed
me and depressed me,
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even though I was ministering
and doing everything else
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and functioning, I
knew I was depressed.
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But we're going to be
really curious about that
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because...
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Yeah, of course, you
are, of course you are.
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It was some kind
of nutshell version,
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you know, we're counselors here,
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we want to know the details.
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Yeah.
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We want to know more.
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This is a financial
loss that almost robbed me
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that almost
robbed me of my ministry.
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And it was not
something that I had done.
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It was, again,
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the circumstances are
too long to tell here.
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Yeah, convoluted story.
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It was a convoluted story
of something I had not done,
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it didn't matter, I
was culpable apparently,
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and I've had a
huge financial loss,
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thought I was going to
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not be able to
minister ever again,
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and I responded with anger.
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And after this
was finally removed,
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my ministry was restored.
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I did some soul
searching and figured out
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that the reason for my anger
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was that I thought
God had owed me better.
00:10:06.00\00:10:08.40
Entitlement.
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Yeah.
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And when I
realize that I'd preached
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against the fact
that God owes us more...
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Yeah, entitlement.
00:10:13.91\00:10:15.24
And yet I felt it,
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I confess that it's a sin
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and I ask God to make my
preach theology congruent
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with my lived theology.
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Amen. Love it.
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And when Gayle was
announced as being terminal,
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I had to thank God
because He had done
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what I asked Him to do.
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I did not think that God owed me
00:10:31.16\00:10:33.09
more than what He had given,
00:10:33.13\00:10:35.06
I was grateful for
what He had given me,
00:10:35.10\00:10:36.97
and anger has not been
00:10:37.00\00:10:38.33
a part of my
grief experience at all
00:10:38.37\00:10:39.70
because of that I think.
00:10:39.73\00:10:41.07
Yeah.
00:10:41.10\00:10:42.44
I recognized, I've
been blessed beyond measure,
00:10:42.47\00:10:45.24
blessed beyond measure.
00:10:45.27\00:10:46.61
So that foundational entitlement
00:10:46.64\00:10:47.98
just really sets you up
00:10:48.01\00:10:49.34
for a lot of
ramifications of it.
00:10:49.38\00:10:50.71
Absolutely.
00:10:50.75\00:10:52.08
You know, feeling cheated,
feel resentful, feeling anger
00:10:52.11\00:10:55.05
but if you can sort of
00:10:55.08\00:10:56.42
knock that
foundational thing out,
00:10:56.45\00:10:59.25
then a lot of
things fall into place.
00:10:59.29\00:11:00.62
Yeah. That's right.
00:11:00.66\00:11:01.99
Yeah. That's right.
00:11:02.02\00:11:03.36
And so we faced her
death with a shared attitude.
00:11:03.39\00:11:07.73
Prior to her death,
you know, I just told her,
00:11:07.76\00:11:10.43
"You know, what I've
done as a chaplain is
00:11:10.47\00:11:11.90
I ask people to do life review
00:11:11.93\00:11:13.74
because it puts
their life in perspective,
00:11:13.77\00:11:15.40
do you need that?"
00:11:15.44\00:11:16.77
She said, "No."
00:11:16.81\00:11:18.67
I said, "You're probably right."
00:11:18.71\00:11:20.68
I said, "All right, so
what we're going to do?"
00:11:20.71\00:11:22.64
So she said,
00:11:22.68\00:11:24.01
"What I need to
do is write letters
00:11:24.05\00:11:25.38
to each of our
children and grandchildren."
00:11:25.41\00:11:28.22
So she couldn't do
that, so I took dictation,
00:11:28.25\00:11:30.29
we finished those.
00:11:30.32\00:11:31.65
Can you tell us
little about your family,
00:11:31.69\00:11:33.02
you know, how many kids?
00:11:33.05\00:11:34.39
I have two
daughters, adult daughters,
00:11:34.42\00:11:35.92
one of whom is married.
00:11:35.96\00:11:37.56
So I have a
son-in-law, two grandchildren.
00:11:37.59\00:11:39.76
And one of them is
a counselor, right?
00:11:39.79\00:11:41.20
Yes, my younger
daughter is a counselor.
00:11:41.23\00:11:43.47
It's in the blood.
00:11:43.50\00:11:44.83
It's in the
blood. It's in the water.
00:11:44.87\00:11:46.33
The other daughter has
started off as a teacher
00:11:46.37\00:11:48.30
and is now a preacher.
00:11:48.34\00:11:49.67
So, you know,
again, it's in the blood
00:11:49.70\00:11:51.14
because Gayle and I
both started off as teachers
00:11:51.17\00:11:53.27
and turned into preachers
just like my older daughter.
00:11:53.31\00:11:57.05
Wow!
00:11:57.08\00:11:58.41
So she wrote these
letters of goodbye to them
00:11:58.45\00:11:59.98
that I was
supposed to send to them
00:12:00.02\00:12:01.35
six weeks after her death.
00:12:01.38\00:12:02.72
Yeah.
00:12:02.75\00:12:04.09
And then she said, "I
need to write one to you."
00:12:04.12\00:12:05.45
And so that's
going to be awkward
00:12:05.49\00:12:06.82
because I'm
taking the dictation.
00:12:06.86\00:12:09.02
I said, "Besides, what
are you going to say to me,
00:12:09.06\00:12:10.46
you haven't said every
day for the last 40 years?"
00:12:10.49\00:12:13.09
She said, "Well,
you may be right."
00:12:13.13\00:12:14.50
I said, "But out of curiosity,
what would you say to me?
00:12:14.53\00:12:16.80
What would you say to me?"
00:12:16.83\00:12:18.17
If you did write this letter.
00:12:18.20\00:12:19.53
I said, "If you were
going to write this letter
00:12:19.57\00:12:20.90
what you're going to say?
00:12:20.94\00:12:22.27
If you write the letter.
00:12:22.30\00:12:23.64
She said, "I would say,
first of all, no regrets."
00:12:23.67\00:12:26.21
That's speaking of our marriage.
00:12:26.24\00:12:28.04
She knew that I
would beat myself up
00:12:28.08\00:12:29.68
over my perceived
mistakes in the marriage.
00:12:29.71\00:12:32.38
She said, "No
regrets, no regrets."
00:12:32.41\00:12:35.48
And second thing she said was...
00:12:35.52\00:12:36.85
Did that means something to you?
00:12:36.89\00:12:38.22
Yes, it did. It did. Yeah.
00:12:38.25\00:12:39.59
Did it surprise you at all or...
00:12:39.62\00:12:40.96
No. No?
00:12:40.99\00:12:42.32
Because that's her and
that was one of our mantras,
00:12:42.36\00:12:43.93
so to speak, our
mottos for our marriage.
00:12:43.96\00:12:46.36
And maybe you were just awesome
and didn't know it, you know?
00:12:46.39\00:12:48.66
Well, I know that I had to grow
00:12:48.70\00:12:50.93
into being a
good marriage partner
00:12:50.97\00:12:52.43
because, you know, if
you don't see it at home,
00:12:52.47\00:12:54.84
you have to figure
out what that means.
00:12:54.87\00:12:57.51
But the good news is you can.
00:12:57.54\00:13:00.08
Yeah, you can
grow, you can change.
00:13:00.11\00:13:01.44
I mean, it helps when you're
formatted to love and beloved.
00:13:01.48\00:13:03.78
Yeah.
00:13:03.81\00:13:05.15
But if you didn't
get that growing up,
00:13:05.18\00:13:06.51
but I think you did
have a close relationship
00:13:06.55\00:13:07.88
with your mother.
00:13:07.92\00:13:09.25
My mother and I were very close.
00:13:09.28\00:13:10.62
Very close. Very close.
00:13:10.65\00:13:11.99
And she was just
a sweetheart to me.
00:13:12.02\00:13:13.36
Yeah. And I
learned a lot from her.
00:13:13.39\00:13:14.72
Yeah.
00:13:14.76\00:13:16.09
But the second thing she
said was, "Live our life."
00:13:16.12\00:13:17.99
And to me that meant
faith, family, and ministry,
00:13:18.03\00:13:21.93
those are the three things
00:13:21.96\00:13:23.67
because that had been
the cornerstone of our life.
00:13:23.70\00:13:25.83
Our faith in
Christ, our family...
00:13:25.87\00:13:28.47
So she was, kind of,
commissioning you going forward
00:13:28.50\00:13:30.54
this is what I want you to do.
00:13:30.57\00:13:31.91
Yeah.
00:13:31.94\00:13:33.27
She said, "That's what I
would say is live our life,
00:13:33.31\00:13:34.88
don't try to make big
changes, this is who we are."
00:13:34.91\00:13:37.15
I mean, she realized that
00:13:37.18\00:13:38.71
context of ministry will change,
00:13:38.75\00:13:40.62
those kinds of
things, details will change,
00:13:40.65\00:13:43.45
but ministry is a
part of it faith, family,
00:13:43.49\00:13:45.89
and ministry were
the things she told me.
00:13:45.92\00:13:47.26
Mike, you're speaking to
00:13:47.29\00:13:48.62
so many married
couples right now
00:13:48.66\00:13:50.23
who need to hear this,
00:13:50.26\00:13:51.59
as well as people
who might be grieving.
00:13:51.63\00:13:53.86
But this is beautiful.
00:13:53.90\00:13:55.23
Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:55.26\00:13:56.60
That was she
saying, "Keep living."
00:13:56.63\00:13:57.97
Yeah, exactly.
00:13:58.00\00:13:59.33
And we had talked
at earlier stages about
00:13:59.37\00:14:03.51
if one of us died
with the other remarry.
00:14:03.54\00:14:06.14
And I said, "I don't know."
00:14:06.17\00:14:07.51
She said, "Yeah, you will."
00:14:07.54\00:14:08.88
I said, "Well, I don't know."
00:14:08.91\00:14:10.25
She said, "No, you remarry."
00:14:10.28\00:14:11.81
"Why?" She said,
"You need a wife."
00:14:11.85\00:14:15.12
Guy like you can't
even match your socks.
00:14:15.15\00:14:17.75
She knew that I needed that.
00:14:17.79\00:14:19.45
I didn't realize that.
00:14:19.49\00:14:21.29
After she died, at first,
00:14:21.32\00:14:22.66
I didn't think I
would ever remarry
00:14:22.69\00:14:24.03
because what I have to...
00:14:24.06\00:14:25.39
What did she mean now?
00:14:25.43\00:14:26.76
What kind of need,
like, just to function
00:14:26.80\00:14:28.13
or make your
dinner or was it more?
00:14:28.16\00:14:29.56
No, it's deeper than that.
00:14:29.60\00:14:30.93
Although,
obviously, I don't cook,
00:14:30.97\00:14:32.30
so I need
someone to make dinner.
00:14:32.33\00:14:34.20
But, you know, I
have enough income,
00:14:34.24\00:14:35.57
I can go to
restaurants, and I can,
00:14:35.60\00:14:36.94
you know, things like that.
00:14:36.97\00:14:38.37
But that's not what she meant.
00:14:38.41\00:14:41.34
I think that men in
particular find it difficult
00:14:41.38\00:14:44.25
to have intimate
relationships, even guy friends,
00:14:44.28\00:14:48.38
there's not a level of intimacy
00:14:48.42\00:14:49.75
there with most
of your guy friends,
00:14:49.78\00:14:51.65
you like each other,
you care for each other,
00:14:51.69\00:14:53.86
but there's not a
level of intimacy.
00:14:53.89\00:14:55.72
There's only one
person on the planet
00:14:55.76\00:14:57.26
that I had that kind of
intimate relationship with
00:14:57.29\00:14:59.26
and that was her,
00:14:59.29\00:15:00.70
and she knew
that I couldn't live
00:15:00.73\00:15:02.06
without that
kind of relationship.
00:15:02.10\00:15:03.93
I would need to find
someone with whom I could have
00:15:03.97\00:15:07.04
an intimate relationship
00:15:07.07\00:15:08.40
otherwise I'm
alone in the world.
00:15:08.44\00:15:10.11
I didn't realize that fully
until about seven months in.
00:15:10.14\00:15:13.27
So women are
more naturally capable
00:15:13.31\00:15:16.14
of forming relationships
outside of marriage.
00:15:16.18\00:15:18.25
Yes.
00:15:18.28\00:15:19.61
But men, kind of, need
that anchoring relationship
00:15:19.65\00:15:21.62
to keep their relational.
00:15:21.65\00:15:23.25
Gayle had deep relationships
with her siblings, especially,
00:15:23.28\00:15:26.76
her sisters, deep
relationships with girlfriends.
00:15:26.79\00:15:30.29
Yeah.
00:15:30.33\00:15:31.66
I mean, they could
share almost anything.
00:15:31.69\00:15:33.90
I didn't have that
with anyone, but Gayle.
00:15:33.93\00:15:36.20
That's the only
person on the planet
00:15:36.23\00:15:37.57
that I had that with.
00:15:37.60\00:15:38.93
Really? Oh, yeah.
00:15:38.97\00:15:40.30
That was very wise of her.
00:15:40.34\00:15:41.67
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:41.70\00:15:43.04
You know, as a
minister, first of all,
00:15:43.07\00:15:44.41
it makes you kind of
fearful of being too vulnerable,
00:15:44.44\00:15:46.94
too open to people.
00:15:46.98\00:15:48.84
And so you have to
learn vulnerability
00:15:48.88\00:15:50.58
and that takes some confidence.
00:15:50.61\00:15:51.95
You mean being a pastor
makes it difficult to be open.
00:15:51.98\00:15:53.82
Yes.
00:15:53.85\00:15:55.18
Because you feel like
people use stuff against you.
00:15:55.22\00:15:56.79
They will use it against you.
00:15:56.82\00:15:58.15
And you have to be
willing to put up with that
00:15:58.19\00:16:00.12
if you're going to
be open and vulnerable.
00:16:00.16\00:16:01.49
Or you think
they'll use it against you,
00:16:01.52\00:16:02.86
it's not always that they will.
00:16:02.89\00:16:04.23
Not always. But they might.
00:16:04.26\00:16:05.59
Most people won't but some will.
00:16:05.63\00:16:06.96
It's true.
00:16:07.00\00:16:08.33
And when I stand up and I share
intimate details of my life
00:16:08.36\00:16:10.07
before people now in the pulpit
or on camera, I get emails.
00:16:10.10\00:16:13.77
Yeah.
00:16:13.80\00:16:15.14
Some of which are supporting
and others of which are not.
00:16:15.17\00:16:16.77
Not so much. Not so much.
00:16:16.81\00:16:18.67
So vulnerability,
00:16:18.71\00:16:20.04
there's a price
to be paid for it,
00:16:20.08\00:16:21.51
and most men know that.
00:16:21.54\00:16:23.65
The most
intense negative emotion
00:16:23.68\00:16:26.85
that men typically
experience is shame,
00:16:26.88\00:16:29.92
and to open your life up
and to receive criticism,
00:16:29.95\00:16:33.15
multiplies the shame in.
00:16:33.19\00:16:34.92
I'm just wondering
if these two gentlemen
00:16:34.96\00:16:37.39
have the same experience
where it's tough for you
00:16:37.43\00:16:39.46
to get really close to
someone other than your wife.
00:16:39.49\00:16:42.50
Is it easier for
you to access that?
00:16:42.53\00:16:45.23
Is that pretty true?
00:16:45.27\00:16:46.60
I'm totally relating
to what you said, Mike.
00:16:46.63\00:16:48.44
Yeah, it's not natural.
00:16:48.47\00:16:49.80
And also, I agree with Mike that
00:16:49.84\00:16:51.91
some people will be supportive
00:16:51.94\00:16:53.27
but there's always some people
00:16:53.31\00:16:54.64
they may wait six months or year
00:16:54.68\00:16:56.01
but something goes wrong,
00:16:56.04\00:16:57.38
and then they're going
to turn around and say,
00:16:57.41\00:16:58.75
"You're doing this
because of what you shared."
00:16:58.78\00:17:00.12
Yeah.
00:17:00.15\00:17:01.48
And so because
you guys typically
00:17:01.52\00:17:03.39
occupy these positions
00:17:03.42\00:17:04.75
where you are
spearheading something
00:17:04.79\00:17:06.12
or the head of something,
00:17:06.15\00:17:07.76
you're especially
vulnerable to people
00:17:07.79\00:17:09.42
that will use your
vulnerability against you.
00:17:09.46\00:17:11.33
Absolutely, absolutely.
00:17:11.36\00:17:13.06
What do you think about,
like this is kind of off topic
00:17:13.09\00:17:15.03
but what do you think about
the whole bromance phenomena
00:17:15.06\00:17:17.63
where guys like make
these almost romantic,
00:17:17.67\00:17:20.24
they're not homosexual,
00:17:20.27\00:17:22.04
it's this
phenomena where men are like
00:17:22.07\00:17:24.51
they make these overtures
00:17:24.54\00:17:26.17
of a friendship
nature to each other.
00:17:26.21\00:17:28.14
It almost seems like
pseudo-intimacy though
00:17:28.18\00:17:30.65
because it's very
public, and I, kind of,
00:17:30.68\00:17:33.72
wonder if they
carry that intimacy
00:17:33.75\00:17:35.55
into private relationships,
you know, what not.
00:17:35.58\00:17:37.85
Are they really talking
about heart to heart struggles?
00:17:37.89\00:17:39.99
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:40.02\00:17:41.36
And like Mike
mentioned shame, anger,
00:17:41.39\00:17:43.46
are we really talking
about those kind of things
00:17:43.49\00:17:45.46
and how they impact our life.
00:17:45.49\00:17:46.83
I doubt, and I
do think God made us
00:17:46.86\00:17:48.83
in His image male and female
00:17:48.86\00:17:50.37
and that we make
unique contributions,
00:17:50.40\00:17:52.60
And I think women too
are more wired relationally
00:17:52.63\00:17:55.60
and tend to civilize
man in certain respects.
00:17:55.64\00:17:58.34
Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:58.37\00:17:59.71
So and again, I identify
with what you're saying,
00:17:59.74\00:18:01.78
and I do think that the bromance
00:18:01.81\00:18:03.14
is more of a
false intimacy not...
00:18:03.18\00:18:05.78
Men don't
understand what intimacy means
00:18:05.81\00:18:08.28
until a woman shows them.
00:18:08.32\00:18:09.65
Yeah, yeah, in
generally speaking.
00:18:09.68\00:18:11.35
In general terms and
obviously that's a broad stroke.
00:18:11.39\00:18:13.72
Yeah, sure.
00:18:13.76\00:18:15.09
But that was
true for me as well.
00:18:15.12\00:18:16.59
And I thought I was pretty open,
00:18:16.62\00:18:18.09
pretty intimate kind of guy
00:18:18.13\00:18:19.69
until I
discovered true intimacy.
00:18:19.73\00:18:21.73
So was it Gayle that it was
her she was the secret sauce
00:18:21.76\00:18:25.17
or was it just what
you went through together
00:18:25.20\00:18:27.00
that enabled you to get
to that level of intimacy.
00:18:27.04\00:18:29.24
I think it's a
combination of all things.
00:18:29.27\00:18:30.77
I think women have a
greater intuitive sense
00:18:30.81\00:18:34.81
of what
intimacy should look like
00:18:34.84\00:18:37.25
and constantly
working to build that.
00:18:37.28\00:18:39.41
Yeah.
00:18:39.45\00:18:40.78
And then our
shared life experiences
00:18:40.82\00:18:42.15
of course adds to this...
00:18:42.18\00:18:43.52
Yeah.
00:18:43.55\00:18:44.89
And on and on it goes
through all that together.
00:18:44.92\00:18:46.62
No one knew me
like she did. Yeah.
00:18:46.65\00:18:49.22
She saw me in my most vulnerable
00:18:49.26\00:18:50.83
in my worst times, and
she saw me in my best times
00:18:50.86\00:18:53.06
and chose to focus on the best.
00:18:53.09\00:18:54.43
Yeah.
00:18:54.46\00:18:55.80
You know, there was a level
of intimacy and trust there
00:18:55.83\00:18:58.50
that I had never known
before that was rich for me.
00:18:58.53\00:19:01.84
And finally, as I
began to grieve about...
00:19:01.87\00:19:04.24
As a I mentioned
about seven months in,
00:19:04.27\00:19:06.14
it dawned on me
there was an event
00:19:06.17\00:19:07.71
that took place which...
00:19:07.74\00:19:09.08
When you say seven
months in, you mean, into her...
00:19:09.11\00:19:10.71
Into my grief. Okay.
00:19:10.75\00:19:12.21
Because she wasn't
six, seven months, you know.
00:19:12.25\00:19:14.28
She wasn't
around for seven months.
00:19:14.32\00:19:15.82
No, so about seven
months after her death
00:19:15.85\00:19:17.95
is when it began to dawn on me,
00:19:17.99\00:19:19.72
"I don't want to live this way."
00:19:19.75\00:19:21.29
And it wasn't
suicidal it's just how
00:19:21.32\00:19:23.96
is the rest of my
life going to look
00:19:23.99\00:19:25.96
'cause I've never even
had suicidal ideations,
00:19:25.99\00:19:29.50
it's not a part
of my DNA apparently
00:19:29.53\00:19:31.23
at least not to
this point in my life.
00:19:31.27\00:19:34.10
But it was, "How am I going
to live the rest of my life?
00:19:34.14\00:19:37.07
Do I want to live it like this?"
00:19:37.11\00:19:39.34
And the answer was
no. Of being alone.
00:19:39.37\00:19:41.01
Yeah, being alone.
00:19:41.04\00:19:42.54
So can we save
the second chapter
00:19:42.58\00:19:44.55
for the second segment
00:19:44.58\00:19:45.91
'cause I want to unpack
that during the second segment?
00:19:45.95\00:19:47.58
Sure.
00:19:47.62\00:19:48.95
But I want to look more
00:19:48.98\00:19:50.32
at the intimacy building process
00:19:50.35\00:19:51.72
of your marriage.
00:19:51.75\00:19:53.09
How you got there
00:19:53.12\00:19:54.46
because there are
so many married couples
00:19:54.49\00:19:56.66
that don't get there.
00:19:56.69\00:19:58.19
Can you give us a little bit
about your Mad About Marriage?
00:19:58.23\00:20:01.06
Yeah, I think... I
think you guys chime in.
00:20:01.10\00:20:02.76
I think that for
me to find intimacy,
00:20:02.80\00:20:05.67
the first thing was to
recover from any negative
00:20:05.70\00:20:07.70
from the past that
means to acknowledge
00:20:07.74\00:20:09.24
what was negative in my past
00:20:09.27\00:20:11.24
and how that it impacted my life
00:20:11.27\00:20:12.84
and what I needed to do with it.
00:20:12.87\00:20:14.81
So I began dealing
with my anger issues
00:20:14.84\00:20:16.75
early on in my marriage
as I realized that that anger
00:20:16.78\00:20:19.51
though it may have served me
well in certain circumstances
00:20:19.55\00:20:22.15
was too heavy to carry,
and it would hurt my wife.
00:20:22.18\00:20:25.15
And I didn't want to be
a source of pain for her.
00:20:25.19\00:20:26.79
Did you ever see her
get hurt by your anger?
00:20:26.82\00:20:28.96
Oh, yeah.
00:20:28.99\00:20:30.33
And it would be through a
quick word, an angry word.
00:20:30.36\00:20:33.43
Just like short temper.
00:20:33.46\00:20:34.80
Yeah, short temper,
angry word or an attitude.
00:20:34.83\00:20:37.30
And when I saw the
pain that caused her,
00:20:37.33\00:20:38.90
I realized I didn't
want to do that to her.
00:20:38.93\00:20:41.17
I didn't want to be
the source of pain for her.
00:20:41.20\00:20:42.80
I wanted to be the
source of joy for her.
00:20:42.84\00:20:44.47
Because some
people just get mad back
00:20:44.51\00:20:46.04
and that obfuscates
the problem, you know,
00:20:46.07\00:20:48.04
compounds the problem.
00:20:48.08\00:20:49.41
Yeah. And that wasn't Gayle.
00:20:49.44\00:20:50.78
Gayle didn't do that.
00:20:50.81\00:20:52.15
Did she grew up in a home
00:20:52.18\00:20:53.52
where they just didn't handle...
00:20:53.55\00:20:54.88
She grew up in
Father Knows Best,
00:20:54.92\00:20:56.38
does God.
00:20:56.42\00:20:58.29
You know, it was Christian
Neighbors, Father Knows Best,
00:20:58.32\00:21:00.72
the old 50 sitcom.
00:21:00.76\00:21:02.09
It was an idyllic Americana,
that's where she grew up.
00:21:02.12\00:21:04.39
Really?
00:21:04.43\00:21:05.76
Was Fat her Knows Best
like he was an autocrat
00:21:05.79\00:21:07.40
or was it more like
he was just kind of...
00:21:07.43\00:21:08.76
Oh, he was a loving Godly man.
00:21:08.80\00:21:10.13
Oh, yeah. Okay.
00:21:10.17\00:21:11.50
Grace filled, who
loved his children,
00:21:11.53\00:21:12.87
they adored him.
00:21:12.90\00:21:14.24
Oh, wow.
00:21:14.27\00:21:15.60
And his wife adored him,
00:21:15.64\00:21:16.97
they had a
wonderful relationship,
00:21:17.01\00:21:18.34
they raised their
children to know Jesus.
00:21:18.37\00:21:19.71
That's amazing.
00:21:19.74\00:21:21.08
And it was an amazing home.
00:21:21.11\00:21:23.71
So she had certain
tools that you didn't have.
00:21:23.75\00:21:25.78
Yeah, exactly.
00:21:25.81\00:21:27.15
She had seen a good relationship
00:21:27.18\00:21:29.08
up close and personal.
00:21:29.12\00:21:30.85
And she understood
intimacy intuitively as a woman
00:21:30.89\00:21:33.66
and then experientially
00:21:33.69\00:21:35.39
from the standpoint of her home.
00:21:35.42\00:21:37.23
So she knew, kind of,
where we needed to go.
00:21:37.26\00:21:39.89
I didn't know.
00:21:39.93\00:21:41.43
And as I began to humble myself
00:21:41.46\00:21:43.13
and realize I can learn from her
00:21:43.16\00:21:46.03
and dealt with my own stuff,
00:21:46.07\00:21:48.50
then as we
experienced life together.
00:21:48.54\00:21:51.21
There are certain mottos
that we established between us
00:21:51.24\00:21:55.28
in order to make this happen.
00:21:55.31\00:21:58.11
The first motto was my spouse
00:21:58.15\00:21:59.78
would never
intentionally hurt me because...
00:21:59.81\00:22:02.15
I remember that.
00:22:02.18\00:22:03.52
Yeah, that's an
important motto for me
00:22:03.55\00:22:05.82
because I looked up
looking over my shoulder,
00:22:05.85\00:22:08.56
wondering where the
next target was coming from.
00:22:08.59\00:22:09.92
Yeah.
00:22:09.96\00:22:11.29
And when I realized that
she would never intentionally
00:22:11.33\00:22:13.40
be the source of that pain
00:22:13.43\00:22:14.90
that I could
trust her with that,
00:22:14.93\00:22:17.10
then that meant
if the God goes down.
00:22:17.13\00:22:19.37
So that was the first one.
00:22:19.40\00:22:20.74
And then we had a second one
we called good will marriage.
00:22:20.77\00:22:23.27
And that is that I promised
to what the best for her
00:22:23.30\00:22:26.54
and for our
relationship and to believe
00:22:26.57\00:22:28.84
that she always wanted the
best for me in our relationship.
00:22:28.88\00:22:31.01
You put the best
construction on each other.
00:22:31.05\00:22:32.48
Exactly.
00:22:32.51\00:22:33.85
So if you had an off day,
00:22:33.88\00:22:35.22
you weren't
monsterfied for that half day.
00:22:35.25\00:22:36.58
That's right.
That's right. Yeah.
00:22:36.62\00:22:38.15
Everybody has an off
day or an off moment,
00:22:38.19\00:22:40.79
but I realize that she would
never intentionally hurt me.
00:22:40.82\00:22:43.73
And so if I feel pain,
then I would simply say,
00:22:43.76\00:22:45.83
"I know you
wouldn't hurt me on purpose,
00:22:45.86\00:22:47.20
but this felt this way to me.
00:22:47.23\00:22:48.86
Can you explain to
me what's going on?"
00:22:48.90\00:22:50.40
So you have like
a positive default
00:22:50.43\00:22:52.40
that you would go back to
00:22:52.43\00:22:53.77
if things didn't go quite right.
00:22:53.80\00:22:55.14
Yeah. Exactly.
Exactly. That's powerful.
00:22:55.17\00:22:56.64
So that helped heal
me and build trust in me,
00:22:56.67\00:23:00.34
and then as we
experience life's ups and downs,
00:23:00.38\00:23:02.74
successes and failures,
that grew the intimacy.
00:23:02.78\00:23:06.31
And I also saw that
even through the bad times,
00:23:06.35\00:23:09.35
she held onto that
motto for us, that mantra,
00:23:09.38\00:23:12.42
"I would never
intentionally hurt you."
00:23:12.45\00:23:14.16
She was faithful
with it in every turn.
00:23:14.19\00:23:15.52
It's beautiful.
00:23:15.56\00:23:16.89
Don't you find
that like in marriages
00:23:16.93\00:23:18.26
there are narratives
00:23:18.29\00:23:20.30
and that people have
these baseline narratives like
00:23:20.33\00:23:24.13
this is a disappointment
00:23:24.17\00:23:25.70
or this person has
never been faithful to me
00:23:25.73\00:23:28.24
or there's no hope
for this relationship
00:23:28.27\00:23:30.47
or this is a constant assault
on my dignity or whatever.
00:23:30.51\00:23:34.74
And what we're
seeing here, at least,
00:23:34.78\00:23:36.18
what I'm seeing is
a positive narrative.
00:23:36.21\00:23:38.71
It's a positive
redemptive narrative.
00:23:38.75\00:23:41.48
It doesn't mean
that you don't have sin,
00:23:41.52\00:23:42.85
it doesn't mean that
you don't have struggles...
00:23:42.88\00:23:44.22
No.
00:23:44.25\00:23:45.59
But it means that you have
this basic positive narrative,
00:23:45.62\00:23:46.96
and it's just instructive to
me because I can think of times
00:23:46.99\00:23:48.96
in my marriage where we
haven't had a positive narrative
00:23:48.99\00:23:51.19
'cause I didn't
know how to do that.
00:23:51.23\00:23:52.56
Yeah.
00:23:52.59\00:23:53.93
I had never seen that
done before and nobody was like
00:23:53.96\00:23:55.30
teaching the kind of
seminars that you teach
00:23:55.33\00:23:57.30
at least in the
days that we struggled.
00:23:57.33\00:23:59.33
And sometimes, you know,
00:23:59.37\00:24:00.70
there are people watching
this I know that can't honestly
00:24:00.74\00:24:03.81
say that they
believe their spouse
00:24:03.84\00:24:05.34
will never
intentionally hurt them.
00:24:05.37\00:24:06.71
That's true.
00:24:06.74\00:24:08.08
You have to both make that true.
00:24:08.11\00:24:09.44
Solid evidence to the contrary,
00:24:09.48\00:24:10.81
but for those who
can honestly say that
00:24:10.85\00:24:13.21
it's a beautiful
gift to bring to marriage
00:24:13.25\00:24:15.15
and when you can't
have that honest confidence
00:24:15.18\00:24:19.19
what can you do
in a marriage, like,
00:24:19.22\00:24:21.82
what do you recommend to people,
00:24:21.86\00:24:23.19
you're doing these
seminars all the time,
00:24:23.22\00:24:24.69
what do you find when
people can't honestly say that?
00:24:24.73\00:24:27.16
I think you have to
come to a point in your life
00:24:27.20\00:24:29.60
where you decide that
your partner's dysfunction
00:24:29.63\00:24:33.13
is not going to
produce dysfunction in you
00:24:33.17\00:24:35.94
that you choose to do
the right thing all the time
00:24:35.97\00:24:38.57
whether it has a
positive benefit or not
00:24:38.61\00:24:40.58
because you can never afford
the luxury of believing a lie
00:24:40.61\00:24:44.48
or engaging in an unhealthy act.
00:24:44.51\00:24:46.41
Yeah. You just can't.
00:24:46.45\00:24:47.92
The power of sin is that
00:24:47.95\00:24:50.49
when one person sins
against the other person,
00:24:50.52\00:24:52.45
it tempts the other
person to sin and respond.
00:24:52.49\00:24:54.39
And so we set these cycles
of sin going in our families,
00:24:54.42\00:24:57.09
first in our marriages,
00:24:57.13\00:24:58.46
and then pass it
on to our children,
00:24:58.49\00:25:00.16
and the way we stop that
00:25:00.20\00:25:01.53
is by committing
ourselves to righteous.
00:25:01.56\00:25:02.90
That's right.
00:25:02.93\00:25:04.27
Loving well no matter
whether the other person
00:25:04.30\00:25:05.63
loves us well.
00:25:05.67\00:25:07.00
You go it. I call
that going vertical.
00:25:07.04\00:25:08.37
You know, you
don't have to react
00:25:08.40\00:25:10.27
to something perpetrated on you,
00:25:10.31\00:25:11.97
you can go vertical
and stop that cycle.
00:25:12.01\00:25:14.31
And that doesn't
mean you have to stay
00:25:14.34\00:25:15.68
in an abusive relationship.
00:25:15.71\00:25:17.05
No, it does not, it does not.
00:25:17.08\00:25:18.41
Sometimes, loving them
well means the opposite,
00:25:18.45\00:25:19.78
you say that's enough.
00:25:19.81\00:25:21.15
There is a difference
between abuse and dysfunction.
00:25:21.18\00:25:22.52
Yeah. Right.
00:25:22.55\00:25:23.89
And so, you know, the fact that
00:25:23.92\00:25:25.25
you stay in a
dysfunctional marriage
00:25:25.29\00:25:26.62
maybe God honoring.
00:25:26.65\00:25:27.99
Right. Exactly.
00:25:28.02\00:25:29.36
The fact that you
stay in an abusive marriage
00:25:29.39\00:25:30.73
honors no one.
00:25:30.76\00:25:32.09
It might be a
really bad idea. Right.
00:25:32.13\00:25:33.46
That's right 'cause your
kids get mad at you for it.
00:25:33.50\00:25:35.63
Exactly. Exactly.
You could get hurt.
00:25:35.66\00:25:37.23
You know, there's a
whole list of reasons.
00:25:37.27\00:25:39.00
Yeah. That's really powerful.
00:25:39.03\00:25:40.50
Do you think
that we're somewhat,
00:25:40.54\00:25:42.27
and I hate to get into the range
00:25:42.30\00:25:43.74
where people accuse
me of blaming the victim
00:25:43.77\00:25:45.57
but do you think that
we're somewhat responsible
00:25:45.61\00:25:48.51
for bringing out
the best in other people
00:25:48.54\00:25:50.85
'cause what I see in marriage
is often people would be like,
00:25:50.88\00:25:53.78
"This person is
so terrible to me,
00:25:53.82\00:25:55.15
they're so terrible to me."
00:25:55.18\00:25:56.55
And they have no
sense of responsibility,
00:25:56.58\00:25:58.62
maybe if you put them
on their best behavior,
00:25:58.65\00:26:01.02
and you gave them a 10,
00:26:01.06\00:26:02.39
maybe they would
reach maybe an 8,
00:26:02.42\00:26:04.13
but there seems to be
no sense of responsibility.
00:26:04.16\00:26:05.86
So a lot of times what I do
00:26:05.89\00:26:07.23
is try to get
people back to that
00:26:07.26\00:26:08.90
internal locus of
control where they're like,
00:26:08.93\00:26:10.67
well, maybe they're
having their own sin issues,
00:26:10.70\00:26:13.03
but I'm going to make sure
00:26:13.07\00:26:14.40
to try to bring
the best out of them.
00:26:14.44\00:26:16.20
I heard a story about a woman
00:26:16.24\00:26:18.67
who wanted to
divorce her husband.
00:26:18.71\00:26:20.88
And the pastor said,
00:26:20.91\00:26:23.24
"You know, well, you can do that
00:26:23.28\00:26:25.38
but why do you want to do this?"
00:26:25.41\00:26:26.75
She said, "I want to hurt him."
00:26:26.78\00:26:28.38
He said, "Here's a
better way to do that.
00:26:28.42\00:26:30.52
For the next six months
00:26:30.55\00:26:31.89
be the wife he's
always dreamed of.
00:26:31.92\00:26:33.92
Absolutely, always dreamed of
00:26:33.96\00:26:35.36
and then when he falls
absolutely in love with you
00:26:35.39\00:26:37.33
that's when you
divorce him and hurt him."
00:26:37.36\00:26:39.16
It's a best way to hurt him.
00:26:39.19\00:26:40.53
She said, okay. Oh, good.
00:26:40.56\00:26:41.90
So six months she was ideal
like, I mean, the perfect wife.
00:26:41.93\00:26:44.17
And at the end of
six months he said,
00:26:44.20\00:26:45.53
"Now are you
going to divorce him?"
00:26:45.57\00:26:46.90
She said,
"Absolutely not. I love him."
00:26:46.94\00:26:48.27
We're having the
greatest time of our lives.
00:26:48.30\00:26:49.64
That's right. That's right.
00:26:49.67\00:26:51.01
Because her changed
behavior changed his behavior.
00:26:51.04\00:26:53.01
And so, yes, we
have a responsibility.
00:26:53.04\00:26:54.78
There's a line
though, I think, again,
00:26:54.81\00:26:58.01
it comes to the
difference between
00:26:58.05\00:27:00.85
a dysfunctional marriage
and an abusive marriage...
00:27:00.88\00:27:02.72
That's right.
00:27:02.75\00:27:04.09
Because in an abusive marriage,
00:27:04.12\00:27:05.45
your changed behavior
affects nothing, nothing
00:27:05.49\00:27:08.82
but a dysfunctional
marriage, it can change someone.
00:27:08.86\00:27:11.66
You know, I really wish
we had more time to unpack
00:27:11.69\00:27:13.76
this whole thing of
abuse and what distinguishes
00:27:13.80\00:27:16.33
between an abusive and
a dysfunctional marriage
00:27:16.36\00:27:18.63
and maybe we'll open that
up during the second segment.
00:27:18.67\00:27:21.20
We never know where
these things are going to go.
00:27:21.24\00:27:22.64
Who knows.
00:27:22.67\00:27:24.01
But exactly this is
a free for all though.
00:27:24.04\00:27:25.97
We're so excited
to hear the story,
00:27:26.01\00:27:27.74
and it's really,
it's comforting to me
00:27:27.78\00:27:29.81
to see grief
handled with dignity
00:27:29.84\00:27:32.05
but even more than that
the beauty of relationship
00:27:32.08\00:27:35.88
that was really
forged, built on love,
00:27:35.92\00:27:38.65
and you developed intimacy,
00:27:38.69\00:27:40.06
and you didn't have the
background that she had,
00:27:40.09\00:27:42.72
but you were
able to learn things.
00:27:42.76\00:27:44.23
And that's so encouraging.
00:27:44.26\00:27:45.59
And I know there's people
out there that are wondering
00:27:45.63\00:27:47.90
what's going to turn the
tables in their relationship.
00:27:47.93\00:27:50.97
There's hope while
there's life, there's hope.
00:27:51.00\00:27:53.23
Keep watching, keep learning,
00:27:53.27\00:27:55.10
keep listening, and
things just may change.
00:27:55.14\00:27:58.21