Welcome to a
Multitude of Counselors,
00:00:25.99\00:00:28.19
this is part two of the
man who almost never slept,
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our guest is Shawn Boonstra
and he is the director and
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principle speaker
and communicator of
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The Voice of Prophecy, I'm sorry
I didn't say that in the last
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segment and I forgot to
introduce my lustrous panel
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of counselors as well who pretty
much you know, pry Shawn open.
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They're the squirm
makers, they make me squirm.
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We're going to continue the
squirming process but let me
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introduce my friends
here, this is Nichole Parker,
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she is a Biblical
Counselor from Tennessee,
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And Ivishi Edward, Dr.
Ivishi Edwards from Tennessee
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soon to move to Georgia.
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This is Shelley Wiggins a
professional counselor from
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Michigan, and we have the
the wonderful challenge today of
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helping Shawn
Boonstra with his sleep issues
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but as we sort of probe
what was going on with the
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sleeplessness, we realized
that there was an element of
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perfectionist anxiety
and perfectionism in Shaw
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and we are still kind of
wondering if that's leading
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to the sleeplessness or if
maybe there is just a base-
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line anxiety and maybe a
baseline...and he says no.
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Well, no, it certainly
was there in the beginning.
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Okay. Anxiety seems
like such a...Pathological?
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Word, other than...
Anxiety makes it sound like
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I'm not nail
biting and sweating.
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Okay. Is it a...Is it...
Maybe it qualifies as anxiety
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anyway. I'm
just...My brain is active.
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Yeah a very active brain
but also fearful I would say
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of things not being as
good as you want them to be,
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and that's what we broke down
so that you compartmentalized
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and have full confidence that
you are going to be in heaven
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with Jesus. Oh yeah! No
spiritual fear but you've
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God fear that you will
do your best and so you this
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perfectionism at
work in that arena.
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In some areas I...for example
I hold large city evangelistic
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campaigns and those are massive
undertakings, they are 20-hour
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days they're...and I
noticed some years ago,
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I stopped worrying about
them, don't worry we've had a
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hundred of them, they all
went well, it's going to be fine
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God's running this
show. Okay, so that's good.
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So, have I learned that
yet, yeah, to some extent...
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Between shows, we
were talking a little bit,
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am I better than I used
to be? Yeah, I don't worry
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like I used to. And you
also when you are awake at night
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which you still are a
lot, you don't ruminate on
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things that you used to ruminate
on and worry about, true?
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True! I think it's definitely
better than it was say 10...
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My wife will tell you, she
thinks it's just middle-age
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coming around and I'm just
mellower, she said I like you.
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I like you like this, you are
mellower than you used to be.
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Yeah, it could be
related to testosterone levels,
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I don't want to get too personal
here but lower testosterone will
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mellow a guy out. But I
have a question for you.
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We've been talking about
your willingness level to
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experiment.. I know
and it's driving me nuts.
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Not being a perfectionist
for instance we suggested
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leaving a typo in a tweed and
you just about had a meltdown
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right in the chair
when I suggested that. Yeah!
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Yes, I crawled under
the table and wept a little.
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I know, so I want
to ask you something.
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If you knew that by setting
the example of being imperfect
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and being okay with it,
you could help another person
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who was really struggling
and whose protectionism
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was really hurting them,
would you do it for that reason?
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That's a good question. I don't
know that I know the answer.
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I talk a pretty good
game with other people who are
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wrestling with it
telling them just let it go,
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don't you trust God, I
talk a really good game.
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Well, what if they aren't
going to accept your words or
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if they want to
see your example?
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Yeah! Would you be
willing to experiment,
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would you be willing
to take one for the team?
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and experiment with maybe with
the showing other people, doing
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it for altruistic
reasons, I want this person...
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For them, for me, it's
going to make me a great writer/
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evangelist but for them
it's going to make them...
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You know what I find curious?
and I've done some thinking
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in some areas, I do do that,
I don't mind making mistakes
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in public evangelism, I don't
care if I misstate something
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I don't care if I make a mistake
in a recording, I don't...
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If I make a mistake in a TV
show, I don't let them stop,
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don't stop it, don't
go back I made a mistake.
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So, in some areas, I'm perfectly
fine with that, I am very
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very comfortable in my
skin, I like being who I am
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and I don't care that I mess up.
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It's in the recovery.
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I admit it to the audience
up front, you know I mess up
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five times a day, here's what...
I'll tell them a story from my
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day so the audience understands
that even though I am up front
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I'm not perfect.
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So you are familiar with
the process of humanizing...
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So I do that and so in some
areas I am perfectly fine with
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that. I don't mind being
imperfect, I really don't
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but in other areas is
it done? It seems like...
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Is it done, bothers me more than
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am I perfect?
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Okay! Alright!
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So Shawn, you mentioned
that you have racing thoughts
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at night, you can't shut
your brain down. Oh Yeah.
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No, That's right. Okay, how
do you shut your computer down?
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I close the lid so that it's
really easy to open again at
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two a.m. Like a force?
See you don't shut down...
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shut it down. I have never
turned my laptop off, ever.
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Okay, so your laptop
works like your brain.
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Oh yeah, it's on all the time.
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Would you be willing to hear a
few suggestions? Yeah, let's go,
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let's go. So you have a
screen, that's your brain.
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Yep. And all these little icons
are popped up. Okay, and there's
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these little boxes you
know what they look like. Yep!
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you click on them, and it shuts
them down, they are going into
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their appropriate files...If
you wanted to do that on paper
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first, we can show you how
to do that and then you actually
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shut it down. Paper makes sense.
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Cause, I've told myself,
okay that's done till tomorrow
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that's done till tomorrow,
put it away, put it away,
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put it away. Two
minutes later it popped back up.
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There's something about the the
hand will write what the mouth
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can't say or whatnot. So if
you get physically up out of bed
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and go to a different
room and that's important
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and do this exercise and
then go back to your room...
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You got up and what
did you do? You go...
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You have to leave your
space of sleep. Uh-huh.
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So that...And go do the exercise
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do this exercise outside
of your sacred space because
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the bed is for two things and
I'm not going to what all those
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two things are. But if you
take care of...Shawn! Yeah.
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Um, we have a plane
waiting for you. Yes 'm. Okay.
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Jean's already packed your bags.
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If you want change if you
want change, we can help you.
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Yeah! No! Seriously, if
this works, if you leave
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where you are sleeping
and go to a different room,
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and take care of what's on your
mind...If it's writing lists
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If it's. That I've learned...
Bullet points, whatever you
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got to do. Write it down so it's
okay to leave it behind because
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tomorrow the list is there.
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It will be there on the kitchen
table then you go back to
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bed where it's supposed to
be for your frame to sleep.
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That does make sense,
I do not leave the bed,
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I just deal with it
there, I have a notepad on the
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nightstand. All sleep hygiene
protocols will tell you to
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leave your space
for sleeping. I know.
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Because you will develop
an association with your place
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of sleep between
anxiety and trouble and problems
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and your place of sleep.
that does make some good sense
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it makes a lot of sense.
I am not good at leaving.
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Because it makes sense. Yes. Now
here it comes, here it comes.
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Here it comes. Did you
know she is going to preach now?
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Is it possible that
we could have buy-in?
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Yeah! It makes sense,
I am then willing to...
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Oh yeah, I'm willing to do that.
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I'm willing to do...Okay
sign the contract. Right there.
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It's a treatment plan,
Shawn. Yeah. No, I am willing
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I am willing, that's
an easy change to make.
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Can you verbalize what it
is that you are willing to do?
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I'm willing to leave the
bed if I'm not sleeping and go
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somewhere else to deal
with things and then come back
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just for sleep.
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Team, did you hear that?
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- Tried everything and
that's basic. Well, I have done,
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Okay, let me explain
what's has happened in the past
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when I've done that. Okay!
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I didn't promise to
be an easy nut to crack.
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But what happens is I
get interested in the world
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around me when I leave
the bedroom and then I'm up
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all night. Squirrel.
And I'm up all night.
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Oh my goodness, look at this,
there's a book of philosophy
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that I haven't read yet
and I bought it six months ago
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and I'll just thumb through
it for a minute over here in the
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living room and the next
thing you know, it's 4:00.
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Then we have a very specific
place that you are allowed to
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go to where it
doesn't have a bunch of books.
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The corner, I spent
my whole youth there.
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Not the corner, we have to...
we'll call it something else
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but you can only go to a
very specific place that doesn't
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have all the distractions around
it. Yeah! Okay, so sign the
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contract? Oh, okay.
There's nothing on there.
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We're going to write your
treatment plan and send it to
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After I sign it, alright,
no, that does make sense.
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where do you go
that's not interesting?
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One of the
afflictions I have I think,
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I don't know if it's an
affliction or not...Curiosity!
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Everything is interesting,
everything is interesting.
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I'll just go out and
stand in the backyard
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and I think I'll go in the back
yard, I'll clear my thoughts
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there and my goodness there
is a moth that I have never seen
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before and it's like
where did that come from?
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And I wonder if I Google
it if I could figure out where
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that...Everything... I
think Google and you are
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like a bad combination,
like... It is a bad combination.
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You can't just look
one thing up. Exactly.
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But everything's interesting
so where do you go that isn't
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interesting? Yeah.
Everything is interesting.
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What have you tried in the
past to (shut your brain down)?
00:09:48.05\00:09:50.92
Some people rely on anti-anxiety
meds, sleep meds, Melatonin,
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what have you tried?
This is probably a bad idea
00:09:55.76\00:09:58.03
you're gonna recoil in horror
but one thing, I do two things,
00:09:58.06\00:10:00.60
white noise number
one. There's something about
00:10:00.63\00:10:02.46
white noise that helps your
brain drift and if I can get my
00:10:02.50\00:10:05.43
brain to drift...I don't
know what that is, what is white
00:10:05.47\00:10:06.94
noise? White noise is like
the static on your television.
00:10:06.97\00:10:10.11
Or you can even get white
noise apps on your iPhone...
00:10:10.14\00:10:12.81
Yeah I've got an electric
fan on my I iPad, that I just
00:10:12.84\00:10:15.34
turn on a fan. A
fan is white noise
00:10:15.38\00:10:17.45
and that somehow
gets your brain to drift.
00:10:17.48\00:10:19.68
The other thing I do is I
stick my iPhone under my pillow.
00:10:19.71\00:10:22.38
Nowadays with, you know,
tune in to radio and apps
00:10:22.42\00:10:25.35
I can listen to any
radio station in the world
00:10:25.39\00:10:27.49
3ABN, I can listen to
3ABN. I need somebody to talk.
00:10:27.52\00:10:30.59
In the old days, I used to
go down and watch the preacher
00:10:30.63\00:10:33.09
he was on at two a.m. on
the TV and turn it really low.
00:10:33.13\00:10:36.46
You know, there's
really actually, sleep aids
00:10:36.50\00:10:39.57
that are recordings of women
speaking and they're usually
00:10:39.60\00:10:42.20
like in a librarian kind
of context and their speaking
00:10:42.24\00:10:45.11
in a way that you can't
really hear what they are saying
00:10:45.14\00:10:46.91
but going like gibberish.
Yeah. And just the con...
00:10:46.94\00:10:49.54
That's what I am looking
for and I find that suddenly
00:10:49.58\00:10:51.51
I'm trying...and if I
turn it down low enough
00:10:51.55\00:10:53.58
now I have to listen and
every- thing else fades into the
00:10:53.62\00:10:56.92
background but that interaction
and I don't want to use the word
00:10:56.95\00:11:01.02
hypnosis because I'm
not a fan of that whole,
00:11:01.06\00:11:03.22
but there's something about...
The objectionable thing about
00:11:03.26\00:11:05.36
hypnosis is mind control,
one mind...but this is not
00:11:05.39\00:11:07.96
This is calming. This is
calming. This is calming. And
00:11:08.96\00:11:11.83
that helps you. Oh yeah,
absolutely. And then you wake up
00:11:11.87\00:11:13.87
at two in the morning
and change the channel, Yeah!
00:11:13.90\00:11:16.24
So I want to go back to your
fear though, I think that was
00:11:16.27\00:11:18.67
really fertile ground and
your perfectionism. Watch me.
00:11:18.71\00:11:21.81
I'm not going to let go
of that either...No, no.
00:11:21.84\00:11:24.31
I really think that you
would be able to bless...
00:11:24.35\00:11:27.35
I mean you are blessing
thousands maybe millions
00:11:27.38\00:11:30.02
of people with your ministry
and it's awesome but I really
00:11:30.05\00:11:33.39
think that you could
bless more people if you had a
00:11:33.42\00:11:34.82
testimony of
overcoming perfectionism.
00:11:34.86\00:11:37.03
Because perfectionism
does, I mean you're such a jolly
00:11:37.06\00:11:40.13
soul, you laugh your way
through it and then you admit
00:11:40.16\00:11:42.93
you know how rowdy...you
know how some people it is their
00:11:42.96\00:11:44.67
own doing so can we
probe a little deeper into the
00:11:44.70\00:11:47.64
perfectionism. Yeah,
perfectionism is a word that
00:11:47.67\00:11:49.97
because I probably squirm
with that because in a religious
00:11:50.01\00:11:51.91
context that means something
different, and I don't live
00:11:51.94\00:11:54.24
in that world, I don't
live in the world of religious
00:11:54.28\00:11:56.88
perfectionism. But so many
people do...But the principles
00:11:56.91\00:11:59.65
and the habits
carry over for many people
00:11:59.68\00:12:02.02
maybe now you've
successfully compartmentalized.
00:12:02.05\00:12:03.89
Oh, I totally have, yeah
but. I mean Shawn the sinless...
00:12:03.92\00:12:07.66
Alright, tell me in a sentence
what your home of origin
00:12:07.69\00:12:11.89
upbringing, training said to
you about doing well at things?
00:12:11.93\00:12:17.63
and also what it
said about not doing well?
00:12:17.67\00:12:20.37
Immigrant parents, I thought
about this in the wee hours
00:12:20.40\00:12:25.84
when you are lying awake
and what's doing this to you?
00:12:25.87\00:12:27.78
And so, Immigrant parents,
father who comes at 18 with
00:12:27.81\00:12:32.28
45 dollars and you've got
to make it, so there's probably
00:12:32.31\00:12:35.92
if you've got to make it.
00:12:35.95\00:12:37.49
And I feel responsible
for my family, so I think
00:12:37.52\00:12:42.09
I got to make it, how am
I going to support my wife
00:12:42.12\00:12:46.46
if we retire one
day? How am I going to...
00:12:46.49\00:12:48.66
Gotta make it was probably
a huge part of my upbringing
00:12:48.70\00:12:54.04
and working hard...Well,
wait a minute, there's a weird
00:12:54.07\00:12:56.81
association there because you
being perfect in all your tweets
00:12:56.84\00:13:00.28
is not going to have any
impact at all...No, I know.
00:13:00.31\00:13:02.48
as to whether you can
support your family or not.
00:13:02.51\00:13:03.91
What a...The English language
is how I make my living.
00:13:03.95\00:13:08.68
No, but you being imperfect
is not going to hurt you
00:13:08.72\00:13:11.25
you're still going to be
able to support your family so
00:13:11.29\00:13:13.02
I don't accept that.
Can you... Yeah, okay.
00:13:13.05\00:13:14.92
Yeah, try again.
Laughter. I don't know.
00:13:14.96\00:13:19.79
I definitely grew up in an
atmosphere of you got to make it
00:13:19.83\00:13:23.16
and do...and probably grew up
Dutch/Calvinist background which
00:13:23.20\00:13:26.63
which is a huge work
ethic. Work is an act of worship
00:13:26.67\00:13:31.34
you do your very best,
not because not for ego's sake
00:13:31.37\00:13:35.21
or for pride's sake but because
that's how you honor God.
00:13:35.24\00:13:39.05
Uh-hum. That is an
element there as well.
00:13:39.08\00:13:41.92
Okay, so there's a link.
Yeah. Oh yeah, this is how you
00:13:41.95\00:13:46.69
get one lifetime and your
life is a testimony to God's
00:13:46.72\00:13:50.79
goodness. That would have to be
subconscious if I'm doing that
00:13:50.83\00:13:54.83
because I don't start
out my day thinking...
00:13:54.86\00:13:57.00
Right. Obviously
something that's driving this is
00:13:57.03\00:13:59.97
subconscious, you're not
choosing to not be able to
00:14:00.04\00:14:03.10
sleep. I do think there is
something significant going on
00:14:03.14\00:14:06.17
and like Jen mentioned anxiety,
and I know you don't really like
00:14:06.21\00:14:09.84
that word. But if you
think of it as when a person's
00:14:09.88\00:14:13.31
under pressure or has fear,
they tend to go to one or the
00:14:13.35\00:14:18.62
other end of a spectrum so
if their tendency is when they
00:14:18.65\00:14:22.36
overwhelmed or under
pressure to become depressed.
00:14:22.39\00:14:25.73
then it's kind of like if
you are in a car and you're
00:14:25.79\00:14:28.66
experiencing pressure
or intensity of some kind
00:14:28.70\00:14:32.33
the depressed person crawls
in the back seat and covers
00:14:32.37\00:14:35.17
himself with a gray
blanket and huddles there
00:14:35.20\00:14:37.31
because they are overwhelmed
they can't fix it. Right.
00:14:37.34\00:14:40.01
I tend to, be give me the
wheel. The opposite exactly.
00:14:40.04\00:14:43.75
The opposite reaction
is I think I've got this
00:14:43.78\00:14:46.78
and you tighten your grip
on the wheel and you take over
00:14:46.82\00:14:50.75
that's exactly what I think
is driving what is going on
00:14:50.79\00:14:54.12
here but there are things
that you're able to put your
00:14:54.16\00:14:56.99
put yourself in the
passengers seat and relax on.
00:14:57.03\00:15:00.13
So the question is that
why is it that what happens
00:15:00.16\00:15:02.90
before you go to sleep in
the driver's seat clutching the
00:15:02.93\00:15:06.97
steering wheel category
and how could you move it to
00:15:07.00\00:15:10.07
being able to be in the
passengers' seat. Good question.
00:15:10.11\00:15:12.41
If there's some avoidance,
what would happen if you
00:15:12.44\00:15:15.08
didn't do your best? Put it in
a sentence right from your gut?
00:15:15.11\00:15:18.95
Your upbringing. Really Simple,
I would know I didn't do my
00:15:18.98\00:15:21.85
best. And that would...What
would happen? If you knew.
00:15:21.88\00:15:25.49
What would that mean about you?
00:15:25.52\00:15:27.46
I actually derive joy
from knowing I did my best
00:15:27.49\00:15:31.16
and not doing my best
would be...You are tough.
00:15:31.19\00:15:33.73
I know, I know, but I am
being honest, I'm trying to be
00:15:33.76\00:15:36.16
transparent. Alright,
alright. I'm trying...
00:15:36.20\00:15:37.73
The reason I've objected to
the word anxiety is I don't want
00:15:37.77\00:15:39.63
people to think there is a
cold sweat or that there's a...
00:15:39.67\00:15:42.04
There's not, it's just a
fact of...Symptomology of the
00:15:42.07\00:15:44.97
normal anxiety features.
No! I don't have panic attacks
00:15:45.01\00:15:47.34
I don't have cold sweats,
I don't get the knot in my
00:15:47.38\00:15:51.91
stomach, maybe once in a blue
moon, who doesn't once in a blue
00:15:51.95\00:15:55.02
moon? It's I can't turn it
off, it's active, it's I can't.
00:15:55.05\00:15:59.35
It's a racing
thought. It's racing thoughts
00:15:59.39\00:16:00.72
It's in DNA here, I don't
think it's all you being damaged
00:16:00.76\00:16:04.73
from childhood or anything
like that...I think there's...
00:16:04.76\00:16:06.43
No, I had a really good
child- hood, let me just say
00:16:06.46\00:16:08.13
Mom and Dad watched 3ABN
it was really great. Laughter.
00:16:08.16\00:16:10.43
Seriously! No, no, I had
a good childhood. Did you?
00:16:10.47\00:16:14.04
Yeah, sure I did.
You were happy? Oh yeah!
00:16:14.07\00:16:16.34
Well adjusted? I don't know,
you know me, how well-adjusted
00:16:16.37\00:16:19.77
am I? Do you have
children? Yeah, I do.
00:16:19.81\00:16:21.94
How does this impact your
parenting and your relationship
00:16:21.98\00:16:25.11
with them? That's a
really good question.
00:16:25.15\00:16:27.78
Ah, I tend to demand quite
a bit. Our motto in our house
00:16:27.82\00:16:34.76
is work first, play later.
Okay, I could have actually
00:16:34.79\00:16:37.69
verbalized that to
you but I wanted to ask,
00:16:37.73\00:16:39.93
I want to make sure you
are aware that there might be
00:16:39.96\00:16:43.63
some transference but to
how you expect... Oh yeah...
00:16:43.67\00:16:46.50
I think about that a lot.
What do you think about that?
00:16:46.53\00:16:49.47
I try to back off a
bit, I try to say it's okay.
00:16:49.50\00:16:52.11
Now the other component
there is of course my kids have
00:16:52.14\00:16:55.01
grown up in a fishbowl so
I've deliberately tried to not
00:16:55.04\00:16:59.75
grown up in a fishbowl. Um-hum!
So I've deliberately tried to
00:16:59.78\00:17:01.25
On some things I demand things,
you know what, you didn't need
00:17:01.28\00:17:02.75
to get that grade. Yeah. You
didn't need to get that grade...
00:17:02.78\00:17:06.05
you can do better.
00:17:06.09\00:17:07.42
Give them permission
for a few typo's. Oh yeah.
00:17:07.46\00:17:10.03
Good. My kids miss
far less than I do.
00:17:10.06\00:17:13.03
Good! I do give permission
for that. You have two daughters
00:17:13.06\00:17:16.36
right? Two daughters,
that's right? And that's it?
00:17:16.40\00:17:18.03
That's right. Okay. And
so I'm aware of evening...
00:17:18.07\00:17:21.97
Have they ever said to
you... I am aware of every young
00:17:22.00\00:17:24.97
man in the
Continental United States.
00:17:25.01\00:17:27.48
I hear where they are.
Have you modified your views on
00:17:27.51\00:17:29.21
gun control? So have they
ever told you, you know Dad
00:17:29.24\00:17:34.48
can you just let go or are
we just feel like we're going
00:17:34.52\00:17:36.85
to make a mistake
and we're so worried?
00:17:36.89\00:17:38.42
Have they conveyed
any of that to you?
00:17:38.45\00:17:40.52
Once in a
while, once in a while.
00:17:40.56\00:17:42.86
Not very often and I'm
quite willing, I'm quite willing
00:17:42.89\00:17:47.36
to take it if it is sincere
and I'm not willing to take it
00:17:47.40\00:17:51.17
as an excuse. So if a child
says, well maybe that's all
00:17:51.20\00:17:54.57
I'm capable of,
no, no, not a chance.
00:17:54.60\00:17:58.61
Do I demand a Road
Scholar? No. Nah, I don't.
00:17:58.64\00:18:03.41
But I am cognizant of the
fact that I'm highly driven
00:18:03.45\00:18:07.68
that I might expect that
of people who aren't put in
00:18:07.72\00:18:11.49
too much pressure on
them, I do think about that.
00:18:11.52\00:18:13.19
Has the drivenness
ever challenged bonding?
00:18:13.22\00:18:17.76
Cause there's kind of a
tension between relationship
00:18:17.79\00:18:22.23
and task orientation.
People tend to be on a spectrum
00:18:22.26\00:18:25.37
somewhere so they may be
very task achievement oriented
00:18:25.40\00:18:27.64
or some people may be
more relationally oriented.
00:18:27.67\00:18:30.07
Sometimes those things come
to a sword's point so if you
00:18:30.11\00:18:32.27
ever noticed in your
relationship for instance
00:18:32.31\00:18:33.88
with your kids that
the drivenness factor of
00:18:33.91\00:18:36.64
your whole family, cause you are
all like...Yeah, we're all...
00:18:36.68\00:18:38.11
high achievers. Yeah,
we're all like we're young...
00:18:38.15\00:18:39.48
So, has that ever
gotten in the way of bonding?
00:18:39.51\00:18:41.78
No, we're really close. Are you?
00:18:41.82\00:18:43.22
I have to say and I
thank God for that every day
00:18:43.25\00:18:46.72
I um, yeah. Do we ever
have moments of tension?
00:18:46.76\00:18:50.89
I got teenage kids, sure we do.
00:18:50.93\00:18:52.26
Yeah, I think don't
give me that. It's normal.
00:18:52.29\00:18:53.63
Don't give me that. No that's
fine. Don't give who what?
00:18:53.66\00:18:56.36
Don't give me that
excuse. Like give me a break.
00:18:56.40\00:18:58.73
You say that to
your kids? Oh yeah.
00:18:58.77\00:19:00.10
But I, we're close,
we're closer...When I grew up,
00:19:00.14\00:19:06.71
oh, I had a good family
growing up but we weren't...
00:19:06.74\00:19:09.24
I wouldn't describe us as
close as my family is now.
00:19:09.28\00:19:14.02
And so, I'm still daddy,
and I enjoyed that moment by the
00:19:14.05\00:19:18.59
way Jean got demoted to Mom.
00:19:18.62\00:19:19.95
Laughter! I'm still daddy
but... What do you mean she got
00:19:19.99\00:19:24.79
demoted? Oh, the kids are mommy,
mommy, mommy and she became mom
00:19:24.83\00:19:27.40
and I'm still daddy. How do
you find time for family and
00:19:27.43\00:19:32.50
relationship? It's not easy,
it's true our life has been
00:19:32.53\00:19:35.64
atypical in that in our
children's youngest years
00:19:35.67\00:19:40.64
we were on the road
220-230 days a year.
00:19:40.68\00:19:43.65
With the whole
family, sometimes.
00:19:43.68\00:19:45.61
And then we decided that
takes too much of a toll on our
00:19:45.65\00:19:48.65
children. A different time
Zone every other day and they're
00:19:48.68\00:19:51.49
little and so...and then it
was me on the road quite a bit
00:19:51.52\00:19:55.06
because we had to balance, how
much time do we take together
00:19:55.09\00:19:59.09
and how much is
this actually damaging?
00:19:59.13\00:20:00.73
You know they don't have a
life, they don't have friends,
00:20:00.76\00:20:02.73
they don't have
and that wasn't easy.
00:20:02.76\00:20:04.80
Are we close, yeah, my
daughter called me last night,
00:20:04.83\00:20:08.47
hey Dad I'm thinking about
this college, what do you think?
00:20:08.50\00:20:11.41
This happens all the
time, we've been very open
00:20:11.44\00:20:13.44
we talk about
everything, we talk about...
00:20:13.48\00:20:15.18
we talk about everything.
00:20:15.21\00:20:17.11
We talk about everything and
my kids are far more open than
00:20:17.15\00:20:19.95
I would have been as a child,
you know the Dutch and German
00:20:19.98\00:20:23.39
don't talk about certain...
They're not talkers...
00:20:23.42\00:20:25.19
Yeah, they don't share emotions
and...No, I don't share emotions
00:20:25.22\00:20:27.62
unless I have to. You don't?
You've been sharing for the last
00:20:27.66\00:20:30.23
hour Shawn.
Yeah, I know, I know.
00:20:30.26\00:20:31.73
You do a really good job
at it too. Yes. Yeah, right.
00:20:31.76\00:20:34.93
Very good. I get a gold star for
being...You do get a gold star.
00:20:34.96\00:20:37.63
It took courage to stand
before this tribe...Laughter!
00:20:37.67\00:20:42.80
Well, we're not done with
you yet, we have a few more
00:20:42.84\00:20:44.67
Oh! I want to take Jen's
question that she's asked you
00:20:44.71\00:20:47.81
like three times...And
I've avoided. Yeah, okay!
00:20:47.84\00:20:51.15
I'm just going to
say it one more time.
00:20:51.18\00:20:52.51
If you weren't
ready or you didn't
00:20:52.55\00:20:56.38
quite make it cause you said
your internal drivennesses is
00:20:56.42\00:21:00.86
I got to make it. Um hum. If
you didn't, what would happen?
00:21:00.89\00:21:07.40
I would know and that's
the bottom line, that's it.
00:21:07.43\00:21:10.57
I would know. You, over and
over again appear as your own
00:21:10.60\00:21:14.67
taskmaster, I'm not going
to say tyrant but taskmaster.
00:21:14.70\00:21:18.44
I do need somebody to drive
me, I never have. Yeah, Yeah.
00:21:18.47\00:21:20.38
I never have. You would know
that you didn't make it but...
00:21:20.41\00:21:23.75
And then what?
What would happen?
00:21:23.78\00:21:27.02
What would be so bad?
00:21:27.05\00:21:28.38
I would know, I think that's
it, that's the bottom line.
00:21:28.42\00:21:30.62
Could you accept yourself
if you didn't do your best?
00:21:30.65\00:21:33.76
I don't know. It would
be worth experimenting with.
00:21:33.79\00:21:37.56
Would your wife and your girls
still love you? Oh yeah, I hope
00:21:37.59\00:21:40.73
so... Would Jesus
still love you? Of course.
00:21:40.76\00:21:43.47
Isn't that the gospel? It is.
Would Shawn still love Shawn?
00:21:43.50\00:21:48.80
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, that's not...
I don't know how much I love
00:21:48.84\00:21:52.81
myself. Laughter. I don't
know how much I love myself.
00:21:52.84\00:21:55.58
Would you respect yourself
even if you...Oh yeah, oh yeah.
00:21:55.61\00:21:57.45
I don't think that's a... I
have messed up colossally...
00:21:57.48\00:22:01.18
on occasion and
it's... I can roll with it.
00:22:01.22\00:22:03.25
Can you tell us
about a time you messed up?
00:22:03.28\00:22:04.75
Laughter. There's not
that many come to think of it.
00:22:04.79\00:22:10.96
Oh yeah, I have gone
in, I have gone in say for
00:22:10.99\00:22:15.26
a presentation where I thought
I can wing that and at the end
00:22:15.30\00:22:19.57
I A, knew I didn't wing it,
B, it didn't obtain the desired
00:22:19.60\00:22:24.37
effect from that room. What
do you mean you didn't wing it?
00:22:24.41\00:22:26.04
I didn't wing it because I
didn't successfully wing it.
00:22:26.07\00:22:29.18
I really didn't
wing it... C versus an A.
00:22:29.21\00:22:32.25
Yeah, you bet. Where I
walked in I thought I'd come in
00:22:32.28\00:22:33.62
and say, no problem, I've
done this a hundred times before
00:22:33.65\00:22:37.49
and bam, it fell apart
on me and then I wished,
00:22:37.52\00:22:41.02
oh, I wished, ah I should
have spent a little more time on
00:22:41.06\00:22:44.33
that. One of the, one of them,
there is a level of, if I get a
00:22:44.36\00:22:50.57
phone call, hey,
could you come and speak?
00:22:50.60\00:22:51.93
My first thought is, boy do I
have time to get ready for that?
00:22:51.97\00:22:55.04
Really? Always! You're really
really into being prepared.
00:22:55.07\00:22:58.61
Yes! Very important to
you. Yes! It looks natural
00:22:58.64\00:23:02.54
if you are prepared.
That's right. It's a blessing
00:23:02.58\00:23:05.38
and a curse thing, it's
just finding that balance point.
00:23:05.41\00:23:08.95
I mean perfectionism can
be a curse but with balance
00:23:08.98\00:23:13.42
and I think what Jen is
trying to propose and we're all
00:23:13.46\00:23:15.79
trying to propose is
would you take the suggestion
00:23:15.82\00:23:20.36
of doing an experiment of just
practicing with some intentional
00:23:20.40\00:23:26.53
down time or intentional typos'
however, they look for you.
00:23:26.57\00:23:30.31
They don't have to be on
Twitter. I'll be watching
00:23:30.34\00:23:32.84
Twitter. No, there's
not going to be a typo. Um,
00:23:32.87\00:23:35.68
I mean whatever that looks like,
even if it's just with when
00:23:35.71\00:23:39.18
you guys have family night,
just permission for being human.
00:23:39.21\00:23:44.15
Cause, that's I think
our message we're wanting to
00:23:44.19\00:23:47.42
out there is we're all really
just human trying to get ready
00:23:47.46\00:23:51.63
for Jesus to return.
Right? Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:51.66\00:23:54.36
I don't mind being
human. Yeah, it's not that he's
00:23:54.40\00:23:57.47
not human, he's human, it's
the doing the best he can do
00:23:57.50\00:24:01.70
in usually tasks that
have to do with communication.
00:24:01.74\00:24:04.87
Here's another little piece
of it, maybe we are out of time
00:24:04.91\00:24:07.61
but I don't know. but I'm
an off the charts introvert by
00:24:07.64\00:24:10.35
nature and I live in an
extroverted world and I live
00:24:10.38\00:24:13.52
in an extroverted career and
so for me to walk in front of
00:24:13.55\00:24:18.05
2,000 people and speak
takes everything I've got to...
00:24:18.09\00:24:21.69
So, there's an element there
in hyper-preparation is that
00:24:21.72\00:24:25.36
for me to do that is
completely unnatural.
00:24:25.39\00:24:27.43
I'm terrified of public
speaking. So you overcompensate.
00:24:27.46\00:24:30.50
Oh yeah. This is it, this
is why the pop-ups are so big
00:24:30.53\00:24:34.90
at night. Yeah. Because it's
your subconscious is sorting
00:24:34.94\00:24:39.91
things out and putting things
in files, it's what you do as an
00:24:39.94\00:24:44.15
introvert. Yeah, well I'm off
the charts I'm shy, I don't like
00:24:44.18\00:24:47.88
social gatherings, I
can't stand potluck because
00:24:47.92\00:24:51.09
it's like...But, but let me
quickly insert this and that is
00:24:51.12\00:24:54.99
that Shawn told me off the
camera that at the end of all
00:24:55.02\00:24:59.06
his lectures he stays until the
last person has been ministered
00:24:59.09\00:25:04.30
to which I want to give you
not 10 but 20 stars for that
00:25:04.33\00:25:07.77
because so many public
speakers they finish their job,
00:25:07.80\00:25:10.67
they walk off and they won't
associate, it's almost like
00:25:10.71\00:25:13.58
they think they are on another
level that you come and you
00:25:13.61\00:25:15.74
minister to people and you will
not leave, you said until...
00:25:15.78\00:25:18.61
I mean there
are some exceptions.
00:25:18.65\00:25:20.58
The introvert in me gets
exhausted, some nights I go,
00:25:20.62\00:25:23.18
I've had enough I'm going
to go. But barring exhaustion
00:25:23.22\00:25:25.55
Yeah, Yeah, I do it but I don't
get upfront because I enjoy it.
00:25:25.59\00:25:28.96
I don't enjoy it. Ummu.
I get upfront because those
00:25:28.99\00:25:31.56
people are in the same boat I
was once in and they need some
00:25:31.59\00:25:33.83
help. And I remember when you
first came on the scene you were
00:25:33.86\00:25:36.50
Henry Firerobbins understudy.
Yeah. Is that the right word?
00:25:36.53\00:25:41.27
I suppose so. And you were
kind of working with him from
00:25:41.30\00:25:43.87
Canada and then you took
over It Is Written initially
00:25:43.91\00:25:47.74
and I remember that and
I remember when you first
00:25:47.78\00:25:49.34
started speaking at camp
meetings and a friend of mine
00:25:49.38\00:25:51.11
called me and said this new
guy Shawn Boonstra is a really
00:25:51.15\00:25:53.31
good speaker and
he's really friendly.
00:25:53.35\00:25:55.58
He talks to people afterward
and he's just really like
00:25:55.62\00:25:59.19
cordial and affable and...
Because that meant a lot to us
00:25:59.22\00:26:02.66
cause want to
know that the people...
00:26:02.69\00:26:04.06
You know, we are all women
and we tend not to get the spots
00:26:04.09\00:26:06.23
up there, it tends to be men
and we want to know that those
00:26:06.26\00:26:08.40
men are caring people that
are willing to come down to our
00:26:08.43\00:26:13.20
level so to speak. So, I want to
say that means a lot to me that
00:26:13.23\00:26:15.70
you are that way. I'm glad
that's blessing people. Yeah.
00:26:15.74\00:26:17.81
And you've always been
very friendly to me personally
00:26:17.84\00:26:19.44
and I've never felt like
he thinks he is just all that
00:26:19.47\00:26:21.41
and he's untouchable.
I know I'm not all that.
00:26:21.44\00:26:24.11
Shawn, you've mentioned a
couple of things that work
00:26:24.15\00:26:27.45
for you for the chronic
struggler of insomnia out there
00:26:27.48\00:26:32.12
that maybe travels, I
mean you travel time zones...
00:26:32.15\00:26:34.49
Ahh yeah. You don't just travel.
What works the best for you
00:26:34.52\00:26:37.79
in those situations? In
about one minute or less.
00:26:37.83\00:26:39.76
White noise,
something to distract me.
00:26:39.79\00:26:42.06
I need something to distract
me and if it is visual...
00:26:42.10\00:26:44.37
If it is reading, forget
it I'm going to get engaged.
00:26:44.40\00:26:46.20
It's got to be audible,
lights out, radio, talk radio,
00:26:46.23\00:26:50.11
and the more boring, the better.
And how do you feel about it
00:26:50.14\00:26:53.27
when people write you
with remedies and different
00:26:53.31\00:26:55.88
treatments for insomnia when
you admit your health problems.
00:26:55.91\00:26:58.81
Sometimes I laugh about it
you know please don't. Yeah.
00:26:58.85\00:27:00.72
Please don't write, please
don't write, yes, I've tried...
00:27:00.75\00:27:03.52
You've tried everything,
I've been to so many clinics.
00:27:03.55\00:27:06.45
You've done the gamut,
I've done the sleep clinic
00:27:06.49\00:27:08.82
and they told me
you just don't sleep.
00:27:08.86\00:27:10.43
Laughter! Oh,
thanks. You're hopeless.
00:27:10.46\00:27:13.43
No, I tried it all, the
Valerian, the Melatonin,
00:27:13.46\00:27:17.77
The melatonin
gives you nightmares.
00:27:17.80\00:27:19.13
Really! Oh yeah! Not me!
00:27:19.17\00:27:20.84
That's unique to you.
But you've tried you think
00:27:20.87\00:27:25.97
just about everything and
you appreciate the thought but
00:27:26.01\00:27:28.71
don't bother. Is that
what... Yeah, please don't.
00:27:28.74\00:27:30.81
Please don't, I, uh...
Alright. We are so grateful that
00:27:30.85\00:27:35.38
you've joined us for
this amazing program on...
00:27:35.42\00:27:38.15
about the man who almost never
slept, he's getting a whopping
00:27:38.19\00:27:41.59
three to four hours
every night these days,
00:27:41.62\00:27:44.03
we're so thankful for
that it could be worse.
00:27:44.06\00:27:46.49
But we really plumbed the depths
of Shawn Boonstra's psyche
00:27:46.53\00:27:50.57
and it's been a wild
ride. Thank you for joining us
00:27:50.60\00:27:53.44
and may you be blessed.
May you sleep well tonight?
00:27:53.47\00:27:56.14
because He gives
His beloved sleep.
00:27:56.17\00:27:57.67