Participants:
Series Code: MOC
Program Code: MOC170032A
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00:26 Welcome to A Multitude of Counselors.
00:28 This is part two of the man who almost never slept. 00:31 Our guest is Shawn Boonstra, and he is the director 00:36 and principal speaker 00:37 and communicator of the Voice... 00:39 Voice of Prophecy. Prophecy. 00:40 I'm sorry, I didn't say that in the last segment. 00:43 And I forgot to introduce 00:44 my illustrious panel of counselors as well, 00:47 who pretty much, you know... 00:49 They are the squirm makers. Bright, shine openers. 00:52 They make me squirm. 00:54 We're going to continue the squirming process. 00:55 But let me introduce my friends here. 00:56 This is Nicole Parker. 00:58 She's a biblical counselor from Tennessee 01:00 and Dr. Nivischi Edwards from Tennessee, 01:03 soon to move to Georgia. 01:04 This is Shelley Wiggins, 01:06 our professional counselor from Michigan. 01:07 And we have the wonderful challenge today 01:09 of helping Shawn Boonstra with his sleep issues. 01:12 But as we, sort of, 01:14 probed what was going on with the sleeplessness, 01:17 we realized that there was an element 01:18 of perfectionist anxiety 01:20 and perfectionism in Shawn. 01:22 And we are still, kind of, 01:24 wondering if that's leading to the sleeplessness 01:27 or if maybe there's just a baseline anxiety 01:30 and a baseline dim, he says no. 01:32 It certainly was there in the beginning. 01:33 Okay. 01:34 The anxiety seems like such a... 01:38 Pathological? 01:39 Word other than... 01:41 You know, anxiety makes it sound like... 01:43 I'm nail-biting and sweating. 01:44 Okay. 01:46 Maybe it qualifies as anxiety anyway. 01:49 I'm just... My brain is active. 01:51 Yeah, very active brain. 01:53 But also fearful, I would say, 01:55 of things not being as good as you want them to be. 01:58 And that's where we broke down 02:00 is that you have compartmentalized 02:01 and have full confidence 02:02 that you're going to be in heaven with Jesus. 02:04 Oh, yeah. 02:05 No spiritual fear. 02:07 But you've God fear that you won't do your best. 02:09 And so you have this perfectionism 02:12 at work in that arena... 02:14 In some areas, you know, for example, 02:16 I hold large city evangelistic campaigns. 02:19 And those are massive undertakings. 02:21 There are 20-hour days, there... 02:25 And I noticed some years ago, I stopped worrying about them, 02:28 "Don't worry, we've had 100 of them, 02:30 they all went well, and then it's going to be fine. 02:32 God's running this show." 02:33 Okay, that's good. 02:35 So, you know, have I learned that? 02:36 Yeah, to some extent. 02:38 And, you know, between shows, we were talking little bit, 02:41 "Am I better than I used to be?" 02:42 Yeah, I don't worry like I used to. 02:45 And you also when you are awake at night, 02:48 which you still are a lot, 02:49 you don't ruminate on the things 02:51 that you would use 02:52 to ruminate on and worry about? 02:54 True? True. 02:55 I think it's definitely better than it was say 10... 02:58 And my wife will tell you, 03:00 she thinks maybe it's just middle age coming around 03:01 and I'm getting mellower. 03:03 Mellowing out a little bit. 03:04 That's what she says, "I like you, 03:05 I like you like this. 03:07 You're mellower than you used to be." 03:08 Yeah, it could be related to testosterone levels. 03:09 I don't want to get too personal here, but... 03:11 No, that's probably true. 03:12 Lower testosterone will mellow a guy out. 03:14 But I have a question for you. 03:15 We've been talking about 03:17 your willingness level to experiment... 03:19 Yeah, I know, and it's driving me nuts. 03:21 With not being a perfectionist. 03:22 So, for instance, we suggested leaving a typo in a tweet. 03:25 And you just about had a meltdown 03:26 right in the chair when I suggested that. 03:28 Yes. So I want to ask... 03:30 I crawled under the table and wept a little. 03:33 So I want to ask you something. 03:35 If you knew that by setting the example 03:39 of being imperfect and being okay with it, 03:41 you could help another person 03:44 who was really struggling 03:45 and whose perfectionism was really hurting them, 03:47 would you do it for that reason? 03:50 That's a good question. 03:51 I don't know that I know the answer. 03:53 I talk a pretty good game 03:54 with other people who are wrestling with it, 03:56 telling them, "Just let it go. 03:57 Don't you trust God?" I talk a really good game. 03:59 But what if they aren't going to accept your words, 04:01 they want to see your example? 04:03 Yeah. 04:04 Would you be willing to experiment? 04:05 Would you be willing to take one for the team 04:08 an experiment... 04:09 Yeah. Maybe showing other people? 04:11 Doing it for altruistic reasons, 04:12 I want this person because for them, 04:15 like for me it's going to make me 04:16 a great writer, evangelist, 04:17 but for them, it's going to make some... 04:19 You know, I find curious as I've done some thinking. 04:22 In some areas, I do do that. 04:24 I don't mind making mistakes in a public evangelism. 04:28 I don't care if I misstate something, 04:29 I don't care if I make a mistake, 04:31 and in a recording, I don't. 04:33 If I make a mistake in a TV show, 04:35 I don't let them stop. 04:36 "Don't stop it. Don't go back. 04:37 I made a mistake." Okay, all right. 04:39 So in some areas, I'm perfectly fine with that. 04:41 I am very comfortable in my skin, 04:43 I like being who I am, 04:44 and I don't care that I mess up. 04:46 As a matter of fact, I admit it to the audience up front. 04:50 You know, I mess up five times a day. 04:52 I'll tell them a story from my day 04:53 so the audience understands 04:55 that even though I'm up front, I'm not perfect. 04:56 Okay, humanizes you. That's exactly right. 04:58 So you're familiar with the process of humanize. 04:59 Yeah. So I do that. 05:00 And so in some areas, I'm perfectly fine with that. 05:04 I don't mind being imperfect. I really don't. 05:07 But in other areas, is it done? Is it done bothers me. 05:11 I think that's probably the, 05:13 is it done bothers me more than, am I perfect. 05:17 Okay, all right. 05:19 So, Shawn, you mentioned 05:20 that you have racing thoughts at night. 05:22 Oh, yeah. You can't shut your brain down. 05:23 Oh, that's right. 05:25 Okay, so how do you shut your computer down? 05:27 I close the lid. 05:28 So that it's really easy to open again to and... 05:29 Like a force. 05:32 So you don't... There is no shutdown. 05:34 You don't shut it down, you just close it. 05:35 I've never turned my laptop off ever. 05:37 Okay. 05:38 So your laptop works like your brain. 05:39 Oh, yeah, it's on all the time. 05:41 Would you be willing to hear a few suggestions? 05:42 Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Okay. 05:44 So you have a screen? Yep. 05:45 It's your brain. Yep. 05:46 And all these little icons are popped up, okay? 05:49 And there's these little boxes, you know what they look like? 05:52 You click on them, and it shuts them down, 05:54 and they go into their appropriate files, okay? 05:58 If you wanted to do that on paper, first, 06:01 we can show you how to do that, 06:03 and then you actually shut it down. 06:04 Paper makes sense 06:06 because I've told myself, "Okay, 06:07 that's done till tomorrow, that's done till tomorrow. 06:09 Put it away, put it away, put it away." 06:11 Two minutes later... It pops back. 06:13 It pops back up. 06:15 There's something about the hand will write... 06:17 Yeah. 06:19 What the mouse can't say or what not. 06:20 So if you get physically up out of bed 06:23 and go to a different room, and that's important, 06:26 and do this exercise, and then go back to your room. 06:29 Wait, you get up and what do you do? 06:30 You go... 06:32 You have to leave your space of sleep. 06:34 Uh-huh. 06:35 And go do the exercise, 06:37 do this exercise outside of your sacred space 06:41 because the bed is for two things, 06:43 and I'm not going to say what all those two things are, 06:46 but if you take care of... 06:49 Sleep and... Shawn... 06:50 Yeah. 06:53 We have a plane waiting for you. 06:54 Yes. Okay. 06:56 Jean's already packed your bags. 06:58 If you want change... She ought to pack a lot. 06:59 If you want change, we can help you. 07:01 Yeah. No. Okay. 07:02 No, seriously, if this works, 07:03 if you leave where you're sleeping 07:05 and go to a different room 07:06 and take care of what's on your mind, 07:08 if it's writing lists, 07:10 if it's bullet points, whatever you've got... 07:12 That I've learned... 07:13 I've learned to do it, I write it down 07:14 so that it's okay to leave it behind 07:16 because tomorrow the list is there. 07:18 It'll be there on the kitchen table. 07:19 But then you go back to your bed 07:21 where it supposed to be for your brain to sleep. 07:22 Now that makes sense. Now I do not... 07:23 That does make sense. I do not leave the bed. 07:26 I just deal with it there. I have a notepad on the... 07:29 All sleep hygiene protocols will tell you 07:30 to leave your space you're sleeping 07:32 because you'll develop an association 07:34 with your place of sleep 07:35 between anxiety and trouble and problems 07:37 and your place of sleep. 07:39 And that does make some good sense. 07:40 That makes a lot of sense. The brains makes a lot... 07:42 I'm not good at leaving... So because it makes sense... 07:43 Yes. Is it possible... 07:45 Now here it comes, here it comes. 07:47 She's going to preach now. 07:48 Is it possible that we could have buy-in? 07:50 Yeah. 07:52 It makes sense so I'm then willing... 07:53 Oh, yeah, I'm willing to do that. 07:55 So do you... Oh, I'm willing to do that. 07:56 Okay. Here you go. Will you sign the contract? 07:58 Yeah, yeah, I'll sign it right there really. 08:00 It's a treatment plan, Shawn. Yeah. 08:02 No, I'm willing to do that. Okay. 08:03 So... I'm willing to... 08:05 And that's an easy change to make. 08:06 So can you verbalize 08:08 what it is that you're willing to do differently? 08:09 I'm willing to leave the bed if I'm not sleeping 08:12 and go somewhere else to deal with things, 08:15 and then come back just for sleep. 08:16 Jean, did you hear that? 08:18 Do you know that like you said you tried everything 08:19 and that's the basic? 08:21 Well, I have done it. 08:22 Okay, let me explain what's happened in the past 08:23 when I've done that. 08:25 I didn't promise to be an easy nut to crack, 08:26 but what happens is 08:27 I get interested in the world around me 08:29 when I leave the bedroom 08:32 and then I'm up all night. 08:33 "Oh, my goodness, look at this. 08:34 There's a book a philosophy that I haven't read yet." 08:37 I bought it six months ago, 08:38 and I'll just thumb through it for a minute 08:40 over here in the living room. 08:41 And next thing, you know, it's 4 o'clock. 08:43 Okay, then we have a very specific place 08:45 that you're allowed to go to 08:46 where it doesn't have a bunch of books. 08:48 Corner, I spent my whole youth there. 08:49 Okay, not the corner. We have to... 08:52 We'll call it something else, 08:54 but you can only go to a very specific place 08:56 that doesn't have all the distractions around it, 08:58 okay? 09:00 So sign the contract. Yeah. Okay, I'll sign it. 09:01 There's nothing on there. 09:04 We're going to write your treatment plan... 09:06 After I sign it? All right. 09:09 No, that does make sense. 09:11 Where do you go that's not interesting? 09:13 One of the afflictions I have, I think, 09:15 I don't know, if it's an affliction... 09:16 Curiosity. Everything is interesting. 09:18 Everything is interesting. 09:20 Go out... Thank God for a wonderful mind. 09:21 I'll just go out and scan in the backyard. 09:23 Yeah, I'll go out in the backyard, 09:24 I'll clear my thoughts there. 09:25 And my goodness, there's a moth I've never seen before. 09:27 And it's like, "Where does that come from?" 09:29 And I wonder if I google it. 09:31 If we can figure out where that... Everything... 09:33 I think Google and you are like a bad combination. 09:36 It is a bad combination. Yeah, it would be. 09:37 You can't look just one thing up. 09:39 Exactly. But everything's interesting. 09:41 So where do you go that isn't interesting. 09:45 Yeah. Everything is interesting. 09:47 What have you tried in the past to "shut your brain down"? 09:50 Some people rely on anti-anxiety meds... 09:54 Sleep meds, melatonin what have you tried? 09:56 This is probably a bad idea. 09:57 You're going to recoil in horror. 09:59 But one thing... 10:00 I did two things, white noise, number one. 10:02 There's something about white noise 10:03 that helps your brain drift. 10:04 And if I can get my brain to drift. 10:06 For who don't know what that it is. 10:07 What is white noise? 10:08 White noise is like the static on your television. 10:10 Or you can even get white noise apps on your iPhone. 10:12 Yeah, I've got an electric fan on my iPad 10:14 that I just turn on a fan. 10:16 A fan is white noise. Yeah. 10:17 And that somehow gets your brain to drift. 10:19 The other thing I do is 10:20 I stick my iPhone under my pillow 10:22 and I... 10:23 Nowadays with, you know, tune in radio and other apps, 10:25 I can listen to any radio station in the world, 10:27 3ABN, you can list to 3ABN. 10:29 I need somebody to talk. 10:30 In the old days, I used to go down 10:32 and watch the preachers at 2 in the morning on TV 10:35 and turn it really low. 10:36 You know, there's actual sleep aids 10:39 that are recordings of women speaking, 10:41 and they're usually like in a librarian, 10:43 kind of, context. 10:44 And they're speaking in a way 10:46 that you can't really hear what they're saying. 10:47 But only like... 10:48 And just the... That's what I'm looking for. 10:50 And I find that suddenly I'm paying, I'm trying... 10:52 And if I turn it down low enough now 10:53 I have to listen 10:55 and everything else fades into the background 10:57 but that interaction. 10:58 And I don't want to use the word hypnosis 11:01 because I'm not a fan of that whole... 11:03 but there's something about. 11:04 Very objectionable thing about hypnosis is mind control, 11:06 one, mind control, this is not... 11:07 Right. But this is focused. It's calming. 11:09 This is calming. Yeah. 11:10 This is calming. And that helps you? 11:12 Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 11:13 And then you wake up at 2 in the morning 11:14 and change the channel and... 11:16 Yeah. 11:17 So I want to go back to your fear though, 11:19 I think, that was really fertile ground. 11:20 And the perfectionism. 11:22 I'm not going to like how that is. 11:23 But I really think that that you would be able to bless, 11:27 I mean, you're blessing thousands 11:29 and maybe millions of people with your ministry, 11:31 and it's awesome. 11:32 But I really think you could bless more people 11:34 if you had a testimony about overcoming perfectionism 11:36 because perfectionism does... 11:38 I mean, you're such a jolly soul, 11:40 you laugh your way through it, and then you admit, 11:42 you know... 11:43 but some people it is their undoing. 11:45 So if we probe a little deeper into the perfectionism... 11:48 Yeah, perfectionism is a word 11:49 that I, probably, squirm with that 11:51 because in a religious context that means something. 11:52 I know. And I don't live in that world. 11:54 I don't live in the world of religious perfectionism. 11:57 But so many people do. 11:59 But the principles and the habits 12:00 carry over for many people 12:01 not maybe you've successfully compartmentalized. 12:03 Oh, I totally have. Yeah. Yeah. 12:05 But, I mean, Shawn the sinless. 12:08 Okay, all right, tell me in a sentence 12:10 what your home of origin, upbringing, training, 12:14 said to you about doing well at things, 12:17 and also what it said about not doing well. 12:21 Immigrant parents. 12:24 I've thought about this, you know, in the wee hours 12:25 when you're laying awake, 12:26 you wonder what's doing this to you. 12:28 And so immigrant parents, 12:30 father who comes at 18 with $45, 12:33 and you got to make it. 12:34 And so there's probably an atmosphere 12:36 of you've got to make it. 12:39 And I feel responsibility for my family. 12:41 So I think I got to make it. 12:45 How am I going to support my wife 12:46 if we retire one day? 12:47 How am I going to... 12:50 I've got to make it was probably a huge part 12:52 of my upbringing and working hard... 12:54 But wait a minute, wait a minute. 12:56 There's a weird association 12:57 because you being perfect in all your tweets 13:00 is not going to have any impact at all. 13:01 No, I know. 13:02 As to whether you can support your family or not. 13:04 A typo wouldn't. Yeah, like... 13:06 The English language is well, I make my living. 13:07 It's an experiment, Shawn. 13:09 I know but you being perfect, it's not going to hurt you, 13:11 you're still going to be able to support your family. 13:12 So I don't accept that. Okay. 13:14 Yeah. Try again. 13:19 Oh, I definitely grew up 13:21 in an atmosphere of, "You got to make it. 13:22 And do you?" 13:24 And probably, you know, 13:25 I grew up Dutch Calvinists background, 13:26 which is a huge work ethic. 13:29 Work is an act of worship, 13:31 you do your very best not because not for ego sake 13:35 or for pride sake 13:36 but because that's how you want to your God, 13:40 that is an element there as well. 13:41 Okay. That's really powerful. 13:43 So there's a link. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 13:44 Oh, yeah. 13:46 This is how you get one lifetime 13:48 and your life is a testimony to God's goodness. 13:52 That would have to be subconscious if I'm doing that 13:54 because I don't start out my day thinking... 13:56 Right. 13:58 Well, obviously, something that's driving this 13:59 is subconscious. 14:01 You're not choosing to not be able to sleep. 14:02 Right? 14:04 I do think there's something significant going on 14:05 and, like, Jen mentioned anxiety 14:08 and I know you don't really like that word. 14:10 But if you think of it as when a person's under pressure 14:14 or has fear, 14:16 they tend to go to one or the other end of a spectrum. 14:20 So if their tendency is when they're overwhelmed 14:22 or under pressure to become depressed, 14:25 then it's, kind of, like if you were in a car 14:28 and you're experiencing pressure 14:30 or intensity of some kind, 14:32 the depressed person calls in the backseat 14:34 and covers themselves with a gray blanket 14:36 and huddles there 14:37 because they're overwhelmed, they can't fix it. 14:39 Right. 14:41 I tend to be, "Give me the wheel." 14:42 The opposite... 14:43 Exactly, the opposite reaction is, "I think I've got this." 14:47 And you tighten your grip on the wheel... 14:48 Yep. And you take over. 14:50 And that's exactly what I think 14:52 is driving what's going on here. 14:53 There is no question about that. 14:55 But there are things 14:56 that you're able to put yourself 14:57 in the passenger seat and relax on. 15:00 So the question is why is it 15:02 that what happens before you go to sleep 15:04 is in the driver's seat, 15:06 clutching the steering wheel category? 15:08 And how could you move it 15:09 to being able to be in the passenger seat? 15:11 Good question. Is there some avoidance? 15:13 What would happen if you didn't do your best? 15:16 Put it in a sentence right from your gut 15:18 through your upbringing. 15:19 Really simple. I would know I didn't do my best. 15:21 What would happen if you knew? 15:25 That... Only that mean about you. 15:28 I actually derive joy from knowing I did my best 15:30 and not doing my best would be... 15:32 You are tough. I know. 15:34 I know, but I'm being honest. I'm trying to be transparent. 15:37 And the reason I've objected to the word anxiety 15:39 is I don't want people to think there's a cold sweat 15:41 or that there's a, there's not, it's just an active... 15:43 You don't have the symptomatology 15:44 of the normal anxiety features. 15:46 No, I don't have panic attacks, I don't have cold sweats, 15:48 I don't get the knot in my stomach. 15:52 Maybe once in a blue moon, 15:53 who doesn't once in a blue moon? 15:55 It's I can't turn it off. It's active. 15:57 It's racing thought. It's racing thought. 16:00 I think there's some DNA here. 16:01 I don't think it's all you being, you know, 16:04 damaged from childhood or anything like that. 16:05 I think... Yeah, it seems like you... 16:06 No, I had a really good childhood. 16:08 Let me just say. 16:09 Mom and Dad watched 3ABN, and it was really great. 16:10 3ABN? Seriously? 16:12 No, no, I had a good childhood. 16:13 Did you? Yeah, sure. I did. 16:15 Yeah. You were happy? Oh, yeah. 16:16 Well adjusted. 16:17 I don't know, you know me, well adjusted am I? 16:20 You have children? Yeah, I do. 16:22 How does this impact your parenting 16:24 and your relationship with them? 16:26 That's a really good question. 16:27 Well, I tend to demand quite a bit. 16:33 Our motto in our house is work first, play later. 16:35 I'm thinking, I could have actually verbalize that, 16:38 but I wanted to ask 16:39 because I want to make sure you are aware 16:42 that they're making some transference 16:44 between how you expect from you. 16:46 I actually think about that a lot. 16:47 And what do you think when you think about that? 16:49 I try to back off a bit. I try to say, "It's okay." 16:51 Now the other component there is, of course, 16:54 my kids have grown up in a fishbowl. 16:56 So I've deliberately try to not... 16:59 You know, on something's I demand things, 17:00 "You know what? 17:02 You didn't need to get that grade." 17:03 Yeah. You know? 17:05 "You didn't need to get that grade, 17:06 you can do better." 17:07 So you give them permission for a few typos. 17:09 Oh, yeah. Good. 17:10 My kids mess up far less than I do. 17:14 I do give permission for that and... 17:15 You have two daughters, right? Two daughters. Yeah. 17:16 And that's it. 17:18 That's right. Okay. 17:19 And so I'm aware 17:21 of every young man in the country. 17:22 Have they ever said to you, "You know, Dad..." 17:23 What? 17:25 I'm aware of every young man 17:26 in the continental United States. 17:27 I know where they are. 17:29 Modified your views on gun control. 17:31 So they ever told you, "You know, Dad, 17:34 can't you just let go or we just feel like 17:36 we're going to make a mistake, and we're so worried" 17:38 or have they conveyed any of that to you? 17:40 Once in a while. 17:41 Once in a while, 17:43 not very often, and I'm quite willing... 17:46 I'm quite willing to take it if it's sincere 17:50 and I'm not willing to take it as an excuse. 17:52 So if a child says, 17:53 "Well, maybe that's all I'm capable of." 17:55 Yeah, you're like... No, not a chance. 17:57 You know, do I demand a road scholar? 18:01 No, no, I don't. 18:03 But I am cognizant of the fact that if I'm highly driven 18:07 that I might expect that if people who aren't 18:10 and put too much pressure on them, 18:12 I do think about that. 18:13 Has the drivenness ever challenged bonding 18:17 because there's kind of a tension 18:20 between relationship and task orientation. 18:23 People tend to be on a spectrum somewhere 18:25 so they may be very task achievement oriented 18:27 or some people may be more relationally oriented 18:30 but sometimes those things come to sorts points, 18:31 so have you ever noticed in your relationship, 18:33 for instance, with your kids 18:35 that the drivenness factor of your whole family 18:37 because you're all like high achievers. 18:38 Yeah, we're all four. Yeah. 18:39 So has that ever got in the way of bonding? 18:41 No, we're really close. Are you? 18:43 I have to say, and I thank God for that every day, and I am... 18:48 You know, do we ever have moments of tension? 18:50 I got teenage kids. Sure we do. 18:52 It's like, "Don't give me that." 18:53 It's normal. "Don't give me that." 18:55 You know, that's fine. Don't give who what? 18:56 Don't give me that excuse or like give me... 18:58 You say that to your daughters. Oh, yeah. Yeah. 19:02 But I... we're close. We're close. 19:05 You know, and I grew up... 19:07 Well, I had a good family growing up, but we weren't... 19:10 I wouldn't describe us as close as my family is now. 19:14 And so I'm still daddy and that I enjoyed that moment, 19:18 by the way, Jean got demoted to mom, 19:21 and I'm still daddy, but... 19:23 What do you mean she got demoted? 19:25 Mommy versus mom. Dad versus daddy. 19:26 Oh, sort of mommy, mommy, mommy, and she became mom, 19:27 and I'm still daddy. 19:29 How do you find time for family and relationship? 19:32 It's not easy. It's true. 19:34 Our life has been a typical. 19:36 And that in our children's youngest years 19:40 we were on the road 220, 230 days a year. 19:43 With the whole family. Sometimes. 19:45 And then we decided 19:47 that takes too much of a toll on our children 19:49 at different time zone every other day 19:51 and they're little, 19:52 and so then it was me on the road quite a bit, 19:55 you know, because we had to balance, 19:57 you know, how much time do we take together 19:59 and how much is this actually damaging, 20:00 you know, they don't have a life, 20:02 they don't have friends, they don't have... 20:03 And that wasn't easy. Yeah, yeah. 20:05 But are we close? Yeah. 20:06 My daughter called me last night, 20:08 "Hey, Dad, I'm thinking about this at college, 20:09 what do you think?" 20:11 This happens all the time. We've been very open. 20:13 We talk about everything. We talk about... 20:15 We talk about everything. Everything. 20:17 We talk about everything. 20:18 And my kids are far more open 20:20 than I would have been as a child, 20:21 you know, the Dutch and the German 20:23 don't talk about certain things. 20:24 They're not talkers. 20:26 Yeah, they don't share emotions and things. 20:27 No, I don't share emotions. 20:28 You don't? I have to now. 20:30 You've been sharing emotions for the last hour, Shawn. 20:31 Yeah, I know, I know but... Yeah. 20:32 That gratitude of attitude. 20:34 Yes. Yeah. Very good. 20:35 I get a gold star for being emotional. 20:37 You do get a gold star. 20:38 You took courage to stand before this tribunal. 20:43 But we're not done with you yet. 20:44 We have a few more minutes so... 20:45 I want to take Jen's question 20:47 that she's asked you like three times. 20:48 And I've avoided. 20:49 Yeah. Okay. 20:51 So we're just going to try and say it one more time. 20:52 Okay. 20:53 If you weren't ready or you didn't quite make it 20:57 'cause you said your internal drivenness is, 21:00 "I got to make it." 21:04 If you didn't, what would happen? 21:08 I would know and that's the bottom line. 21:09 That's it. I would know. 21:11 You over and over again appear as your own taskmaster, 21:16 I'm not going to say tyrant, but taskmaster. 21:17 I don't need somebody to drive me. 21:19 I never have. Yeah. Yeah. 21:20 I never have. 21:22 You would know that you didn't make it, but... 21:24 And then what? And what would happen? 21:27 What would be so bad? I would know. 21:29 I think that's it. That's the bottom line. 21:30 Could you accept yourself if you didn't do your best? 21:34 I don't know. 21:36 It would be worth experimenting with. 21:37 Would your wife and your girls still love you? 21:39 Oh, yeah. Oh, I hope so. 21:41 Would Jesus still love you? Oh, of course. 21:43 Isn't that the gospel? It is. 21:46 Would Shawn still loves Shawn? 21:48 Oh, yeah. Okay. 21:50 Oh, yeah. That's not... 21:51 I don't know how much I love myself. 21:54 I don't know how much I love myself. 21:55 But you would still respect yourself even if you... 21:57 Oh, yeah. I don't think that's... 21:58 'Cause I've messed up colossally on occasion, 22:00 and it's... 22:02 I can roll with that. 22:03 Can you tell us about a time you messed up? 22:07 There's not that many come to think. 22:10 Oh, yeah. I have gone in think... 22:13 I have gone in say for a presentation 22:16 where I thought, "I can wing that." 22:18 And at the end, I knew, A, I didn't wing it, 22:22 B, it didn't obtain the desired effect from that room. 22:25 What do you mean you didn't wing it? 22:26 Like... 22:27 I didn't wing it like I didn't successfully wing it. 22:29 I really didn't wing it. We got a C versus an A. 22:32 You bet. You bet. 22:33 Where I walked in and I thought, 22:34 "I'm going to convince that board no problem, 22:36 I've done this a 100 times before." 22:37 And bam, it fell apart on me and then I wished, 22:42 "Oh, I should have spent a little time on that." 22:46 Yeah, one of the... 22:48 You know, there is a level of if I get a phone call, 22:50 "Hey, can you come and speak?" 22:52 My first thought is, 22:53 "Boy, do I have time to get ready for that?" 22:55 Really? Always. 22:56 You're really, really into being prepared? 22:58 Yes. 23:00 Very important to note. Yes. 23:01 Because it looks natural if you're prepared. 23:03 Yeah. That's right. 23:04 It's a blessing and a curse thing. 23:06 It's just finding that balance point. 23:08 I mean, perfectionism can be a curse, 23:12 but with balance, 23:13 and I think what Jen is just trying to propose 23:15 and we're all trying to propose is 23:17 would you take the suggestion of doing the experiment 23:22 of just practicing with some intentional downtime 23:27 or intentional typos, however, they look for you, 23:30 they don't have to be on Twitter. 23:32 I'll be watching Twitter. Okay. 23:33 Oh, we're not gonna be doing typos. 23:35 I mean, like, whatever that looks like 23:37 even if it's just with when you guys have family night 23:41 just permission for being human. 23:45 I mean, because that's I think 23:46 our message we're wanting to get out there 23:47 is we're really all just human 23:50 trying to get ready for Jesus to return, right? 23:53 Yeah, absolutely. I don't mind being human. 23:56 Yeah, it's not that he's not human. 23:57 He's very human. 23:59 It's the doing the best he can do in usually tasks 24:03 that have to do with communication. 24:05 Here's another little piece of it. 24:06 And maybe we're out of time, but I don't know. 24:07 But I'm an off the charts introvert by nature, 24:10 and I live in an extroverted world, 24:12 and I live in an extroverted career. 24:14 Yes. 24:15 And so for me to walk out in front of 2,000 people 24:18 and speak takes everything I've got to... 24:21 So there's an element there in the type of preparation 24:24 is that for me to do that's completely unnatural. 24:27 I'm terrified of public speaking. 24:28 So you overcompensate with your preparation. 24:30 Oh, yeah. This is it. 24:32 This is why the pop ups are so big at night. 24:35 Yeah. 24:36 'Cause it's your subconscious is sorting things out 24:40 and putting things in files. 24:42 It's what you do as an introvert. 24:44 Yeah. Well, I'm off the charts. 24:46 I'm shy, I don't like social gatherings, 24:49 I can't stand potluck 24:50 because it's, you know, it's like... 24:52 But let me quickly insert this 24:54 and that is as Shawn told me off the camera 24:57 that at the end of all of his lectures, 25:00 he stays until the last person has been ministered 25:04 to which I want to give you not 10 but 20 stars for that 25:07 because so many public speakers, 25:09 they finish their job, they walk off, 25:11 and they won't associate. 25:13 It's almost like they think they're on another level. 25:14 But you come and you minister to people, 25:16 and you will not leave, you said, until... 25:18 I mean, there are some exceptions. 25:20 Sometimes I do because the introverted in me 25:21 gets exhausted. 25:23 Some nights I go, "I've had enough, 25:24 I'm going to go." 25:25 But barring exhaustion. Yeah. Yeah, I do it. 25:27 But I don't get up front because I enjoy it, 25:28 I don't enjoy it. 25:30 I get up front because those people 25:31 are in the same boat I was once in 25:33 and they need some help. 25:34 And I remember when you first came on the scene 25:36 you were Henry Feyer Robbins understudy? 25:39 Yeah. Is that the right word? 25:41 Henry? I suppose so. 25:42 And you were, kind of, working with him from Canada. 25:44 Yeah. 25:45 And then you took over, it is written initially, 25:47 and I remember that 25:48 and I remember when you first started speaking 25:50 at campaign meetings so friend of mine called me 25:51 and said, "This new guy Shawn Boonstra 25:53 is a really good speaker, and he's really friendly. 25:55 He talks to people afterward, 25:57 and he's just really like cordial and affable and..." 26:00 because that meant a lot to us 26:02 because we want to know that the people... 26:03 You know, we're all women, 26:05 and we tend not to get the spots up there 26:06 tends to be men, 26:08 and we want to know those men are the caring, 26:10 people that are willing to come down to our level 26:12 so to speak. 26:14 So that I just want to say that means a lot to me 26:15 that you do that way. 26:16 I'm glad it's blessing people always. 26:18 And you've always been very friendly to me personally, 26:19 I've never felt like he thinks he's just all that 26:21 and just untouchable. 26:22 I know I'm not all that. 26:25 Shawn, you mentioned a couple things 26:26 that work for you. 26:28 Yeah. 26:29 For the chronic struggler of insomnia out there 26:31 that maybe travels... 26:33 I mean, you travel times up. 26:34 Oh, yeah. So you don't just travel. 26:36 What works the best for you in those situations? 26:38 In about one minute or less? 26:39 White noise, something to distract me. 26:42 I need something to distract me. 26:43 And if it's visual, if it's reading, forget it, 26:45 I'm going to get engaged, it's got to be audible, 26:47 lights out, radio, talk radio, 26:50 and the more boring... 26:51 The better. The better. 26:53 And how do you feel about when people write you 26:54 with remedies and different treatments 26:56 for insomnia when you admit your health problems? 26:58 Sometimes I laugh about it. Yeah. 26:59 Please don't write. Yes, I tried that. 27:02 Because you tried everything. 27:04 You've tried melatonin, you've tried valerian, 27:05 you've tried... 27:07 You've really gone... 27:08 I've done a sleep clinic, they just told me, 27:09 "Boy, you really don't sleep." 27:11 Thanks. Oh, thanks. Hopeless. 27:13 Yeah. 27:15 No, I tried it all the valerian, the melatonin. 27:17 Melatonin gives you nightmares. 27:18 Yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. 27:20 Not me. Oh, really? 27:21 Yeah. That's unique to you. 27:23 But you've tried, you think, just about everything, 27:27 and you appreciate the thought 27:28 but don't bother is that what you want to say to people. 27:30 Yeah, please don't. Please don't. 27:32 All right, we are so grateful 27:35 that you've joined us for this amazing program 27:37 on about the man who almost never slept. 27:40 He's getting a whopping three to four hours every night 27:42 these days. 27:44 And we're so thankful for that because it used to be worse. 27:46 But we've really plumbed the depths 27:48 of Shawn Boonstra psyche, and it's been a wild ride. 27:52 Thank you for joining us and may you be blessed 27:54 and may you sleep well tonight 27:55 because He gives His beloved sleep. |
Revised 2018-12-30