Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
00:00:26.05\00:00:28.19
This is part two of the
man who almost never slept.
00:00:28.22\00:00:31.56
Our guest is Shawn
Boonstra, and he is the director
00:00:31.59\00:00:36.26
and principal speaker
00:00:36.30\00:00:37.63
and communicator of the Voice...
00:00:37.67\00:00:39.23
Voice of Prophecy. Prophecy.
00:00:39.27\00:00:40.60
I'm sorry, I didn't say
that in the last segment.
00:00:40.64\00:00:43.10
And I forgot to introduce
00:00:43.14\00:00:44.47
my illustrious panel
of counselors as well,
00:00:44.51\00:00:47.34
who pretty much, you know...
00:00:47.38\00:00:49.84
They are the squirm
makers. Bright, shine openers.
00:00:49.88\00:00:52.81
They make me squirm.
00:00:52.85\00:00:54.18
We're going to
continue the squirming process.
00:00:54.22\00:00:55.55
But let me
introduce my friends here.
00:00:55.58\00:00:56.92
This is Nicole Parker.
00:00:56.95\00:00:58.29
She's a biblical
counselor from Tennessee
00:00:58.32\00:00:59.99
and Dr. Nivischi
Edwards from Tennessee,
00:01:00.02\00:01:03.06
soon to move to Georgia.
00:01:03.09\00:01:04.63
This is Shelley Wiggins,
00:01:04.66\00:01:05.99
our professional
counselor from Michigan.
00:01:06.03\00:01:07.76
And we have the
wonderful challenge today
00:01:07.80\00:01:09.26
of helping Shawn
Boonstra with his sleep issues.
00:01:09.30\00:01:12.70
But as we, sort of,
00:01:12.73\00:01:14.34
probed what was going
on with the sleeplessness,
00:01:14.37\00:01:17.01
we realized that
there was an element
00:01:17.04\00:01:18.81
of perfectionist anxiety
00:01:18.84\00:01:20.94
and perfectionism in Shawn.
00:01:20.98\00:01:22.74
And we are still, kind of,
00:01:22.78\00:01:24.11
wondering if that's
leading to the sleeplessness
00:01:24.15\00:01:27.12
or if maybe there's
just a baseline anxiety
00:01:27.15\00:01:30.19
and a baseline dim, he says no.
00:01:30.22\00:01:32.19
It certainly was
there in the beginning.
00:01:32.22\00:01:33.56
Okay.
00:01:33.59\00:01:34.92
The anxiety seems like such a...
00:01:34.96\00:01:38.26
Pathological?
00:01:38.29\00:01:39.63
Word other than...
00:01:39.66\00:01:41.46
You know, anxiety
makes it sound like...
00:01:41.50\00:01:43.26
I'm nail-biting and sweating.
00:01:43.30\00:01:44.93
Okay.
00:01:44.97\00:01:46.80
Maybe it
qualifies as anxiety anyway.
00:01:46.84\00:01:49.54
I'm just... My brain is active.
00:01:49.57\00:01:51.74
Yeah, very active brain.
00:01:51.77\00:01:53.11
But also fearful, I would say,
00:01:53.14\00:01:55.64
of things not being as
good as you want them to be.
00:01:55.68\00:01:58.71
And that's where we broke down
00:01:58.75\00:02:00.08
is that you have
compartmentalized
00:02:00.12\00:02:01.58
and have full confidence
00:02:01.62\00:02:02.95
that you're going to
be in heaven with Jesus.
00:02:02.98\00:02:04.32
Oh, yeah.
00:02:04.35\00:02:05.69
No spiritual fear.
00:02:05.72\00:02:07.06
But you've God fear
that you won't do your best.
00:02:07.09\00:02:09.96
And so you have
this perfectionism
00:02:09.99\00:02:12.59
at work in that arena...
00:02:12.63\00:02:14.50
In some areas,
you know, for example,
00:02:14.53\00:02:16.63
I hold large city
evangelistic campaigns.
00:02:16.67\00:02:19.70
And those are
massive undertakings.
00:02:19.73\00:02:21.70
There are 20-hour days, there...
00:02:21.74\00:02:25.01
And I noticed some years ago,
I stopped worrying about them,
00:02:25.04\00:02:28.74
"Don't worry,
we've had 100 of them,
00:02:28.78\00:02:30.51
they all went well, and
then it's going to be fine.
00:02:30.55\00:02:32.41
God's running this show."
00:02:32.45\00:02:33.78
Okay, that's good.
00:02:33.82\00:02:35.15
So, you know,
have I learned that?
00:02:35.18\00:02:36.85
Yeah, to some extent.
00:02:36.89\00:02:38.22
And, you know, between shows,
we were talking little bit,
00:02:38.25\00:02:41.56
"Am I better than I used to be?"
00:02:41.59\00:02:42.92
Yeah, I don't
worry like I used to.
00:02:42.96\00:02:45.33
And you also when
you are awake at night,
00:02:45.36\00:02:48.30
which you still are a lot,
00:02:48.33\00:02:49.73
you don't ruminate on the things
00:02:49.76\00:02:51.30
that you would use
00:02:51.33\00:02:52.67
to ruminate on and worry about?
00:02:52.70\00:02:54.04
True? True.
00:02:54.07\00:02:55.40
I think it's definitely
better than it was say 10...
00:02:55.44\00:02:58.61
And my wife will tell you,
00:02:58.64\00:02:59.97
she thinks maybe it's
just middle age coming around
00:03:00.01\00:03:01.74
and I'm getting mellower.
00:03:01.78\00:03:03.11
Mellowing out a little bit.
00:03:03.14\00:03:04.48
That's what she
says, "I like you,
00:03:04.51\00:03:05.85
I like you like this.
00:03:05.88\00:03:07.22
You're mellower
than you used to be."
00:03:07.25\00:03:08.58
Yeah, it could be
related to testosterone levels.
00:03:08.62\00:03:09.95
I don't want to get
too personal here, but...
00:03:09.98\00:03:11.32
No, that's probably true.
00:03:11.35\00:03:12.69
Lower testosterone
will mellow a guy out.
00:03:12.72\00:03:14.29
But I have a question for you.
00:03:14.32\00:03:15.79
We've been talking about
00:03:15.82\00:03:17.16
your willingness
level to experiment...
00:03:17.19\00:03:19.59
Yeah, I know, and
it's driving me nuts.
00:03:19.63\00:03:21.06
With not being a perfectionist.
00:03:21.10\00:03:22.43
So, for instance, we suggested
leaving a typo in a tweet.
00:03:22.46\00:03:25.53
And you just
about had a meltdown
00:03:25.57\00:03:26.90
right in the chair
when I suggested that.
00:03:26.94\00:03:28.90
Yes. So I want to ask...
00:03:28.94\00:03:30.27
I crawled under the
table and wept a little.
00:03:30.31\00:03:33.04
So I want to ask you something.
00:03:33.07\00:03:35.21
If you knew that
by setting the example
00:03:35.24\00:03:39.61
of being imperfect
and being okay with it,
00:03:39.65\00:03:41.68
you could help another person
00:03:41.72\00:03:44.29
who was really struggling
00:03:44.32\00:03:45.75
and whose perfectionism
was really hurting them,
00:03:45.79\00:03:47.86
would you do it for that reason?
00:03:47.89\00:03:50.49
That's a good question.
00:03:50.53\00:03:51.86
I don't know that
I know the answer.
00:03:51.89\00:03:53.33
I talk a pretty good game
00:03:53.36\00:03:54.70
with other people who
are wrestling with it,
00:03:54.73\00:03:56.06
telling them, "Just let it go.
00:03:56.10\00:03:57.43
Don't you trust God?" I
talk a really good game.
00:03:57.47\00:03:59.50
But what if they aren't
going to accept your words,
00:03:59.53\00:04:01.64
they want to see your example?
00:04:01.67\00:04:03.04
Yeah.
00:04:03.07\00:04:04.41
Would you be
willing to experiment?
00:04:04.44\00:04:05.77
Would you be willing
to take one for the team
00:04:05.81\00:04:08.14
an experiment...
00:04:08.18\00:04:09.51
Yeah. Maybe
showing other people?
00:04:09.54\00:04:11.58
Doing it for altruistic reasons,
00:04:11.61\00:04:12.95
I want this
person because for them,
00:04:12.98\00:04:15.15
like for me
it's going to make me
00:04:15.18\00:04:16.52
a great writer, evangelist,
00:04:16.55\00:04:17.89
but for them, it's
going to make some...
00:04:17.92\00:04:19.25
You know, I find curious
as I've done some thinking.
00:04:19.29\00:04:22.29
In some areas, I do do that.
00:04:22.32\00:04:24.79
I don't mind making
mistakes in a public evangelism.
00:04:24.83\00:04:28.50
I don't care if I
misstate something,
00:04:28.53\00:04:29.93
I don't care if
I make a mistake,
00:04:29.96\00:04:31.87
and in a recording, I don't.
00:04:31.90\00:04:33.23
If I make a
mistake in a TV show,
00:04:33.27\00:04:35.14
I don't let them stop.
00:04:35.17\00:04:36.50
"Don't stop it. Don't go back.
00:04:36.54\00:04:37.87
I made a
mistake." Okay, all right.
00:04:37.91\00:04:39.24
So in some areas, I'm
perfectly fine with that.
00:04:39.27\00:04:41.21
I am very
comfortable in my skin,
00:04:41.24\00:04:43.21
I like being who I am,
00:04:43.24\00:04:44.58
and I don't care that I mess up.
00:04:44.61\00:04:46.88
As a matter of fact, I admit
it to the audience up front.
00:04:46.92\00:04:50.32
You know, I mess
up five times a day.
00:04:50.35\00:04:52.25
I'll tell them a
story from my day
00:04:52.29\00:04:53.79
so the audience understands
00:04:53.82\00:04:55.19
that even though I'm
up front, I'm not perfect.
00:04:55.22\00:04:56.69
Okay, humanizes you.
That's exactly right.
00:04:56.73\00:04:58.06
So you're familiar with
the process of humanize.
00:04:58.09\00:04:59.43
Yeah. So I do that.
00:04:59.46\00:05:00.80
And so in some areas,
I'm perfectly fine with that.
00:05:00.83\00:05:04.10
I don't mind being
imperfect. I really don't.
00:05:04.13\00:05:07.60
But in other areas, is it
done? Is it done bothers me.
00:05:07.64\00:05:11.41
I think that's probably the,
00:05:11.44\00:05:13.38
is it done bothers me
more than, am I perfect.
00:05:13.41\00:05:17.65
Okay, all right.
00:05:17.68\00:05:19.15
So, Shawn, you mentioned
00:05:19.18\00:05:20.52
that you have
racing thoughts at night.
00:05:20.55\00:05:22.48
Oh, yeah. You can't
shut your brain down.
00:05:22.52\00:05:23.85
Oh, that's right.
00:05:23.89\00:05:25.22
Okay, so how do you
shut your computer down?
00:05:25.25\00:05:27.12
I close the lid.
00:05:27.16\00:05:28.49
So that it's really
easy to open again to and...
00:05:28.52\00:05:29.89
Like a force.
00:05:29.92\00:05:32.66
So you don't...
There is no shutdown.
00:05:32.69\00:05:34.16
You don't shut it
down, you just close it.
00:05:34.20\00:05:35.53
I've never turned
my laptop off ever.
00:05:35.56\00:05:36.97
Okay.
00:05:37.00\00:05:38.33
So your laptop
works like your brain.
00:05:38.37\00:05:39.70
Oh, yeah, it's on all the time.
00:05:39.73\00:05:41.07
Would you be willing
to hear a few suggestions?
00:05:41.10\00:05:42.50
Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Okay.
00:05:42.54\00:05:43.97
So you have a screen? Yep.
00:05:44.01\00:05:45.47
It's your brain. Yep.
00:05:45.51\00:05:46.84
And all these little
icons are popped up, okay?
00:05:46.88\00:05:49.74
And there's these little boxes,
you know what they look like?
00:05:49.78\00:05:52.11
You click on them,
and it shuts them down,
00:05:52.15\00:05:54.88
and they go into their
appropriate files, okay?
00:05:54.92\00:05:58.35
If you wanted to do
that on paper, first,
00:05:58.39\00:06:01.82
we can show you how to do that,
00:06:01.86\00:06:03.59
and then you
actually shut it down.
00:06:03.63\00:06:04.96
Paper makes sense
00:06:04.99\00:06:06.43
because I've told myself, "Okay,
00:06:06.46\00:06:07.80
that's done till tomorrow,
that's done till tomorrow.
00:06:07.83\00:06:09.43
Put it away, put
it away, put it away."
00:06:09.46\00:06:11.53
Two minutes
later... It pops back.
00:06:11.57\00:06:13.84
It pops back up.
00:06:13.87\00:06:15.50
There's something
about the hand will write...
00:06:15.54\00:06:17.77
Yeah.
00:06:17.81\00:06:19.14
What the mouse
can't say or what not.
00:06:19.17\00:06:20.74
So if you get
physically up out of bed
00:06:20.78\00:06:23.14
and go to a different
room, and that's important,
00:06:23.18\00:06:26.28
and do this exercise, and
then go back to your room.
00:06:26.31\00:06:29.55
Wait, you get up
and what do you do?
00:06:29.58\00:06:30.92
You go...
00:06:30.95\00:06:32.29
You have to leave
your space of sleep.
00:06:32.32\00:06:34.12
Uh-huh.
00:06:34.16\00:06:35.49
And go do the exercise,
00:06:35.52\00:06:37.73
do this exercise
outside of your sacred space
00:06:37.76\00:06:41.16
because the bed
is for two things,
00:06:41.20\00:06:43.50
and I'm not going to say
what all those two things are,
00:06:43.53\00:06:46.77
but if you take care of...
00:06:46.80\00:06:48.97
Sleep and... Shawn...
00:06:49.00\00:06:50.34
Yeah.
00:06:50.37\00:06:53.44
We have a plane waiting for you.
00:06:53.48\00:06:54.81
Yes. Okay.
00:06:54.84\00:06:56.38
Jean's already packed your bags.
00:06:56.41\00:06:58.41
If you want change...
She ought to pack a lot.
00:06:58.45\00:06:59.78
If you want
change, we can help you.
00:06:59.81\00:07:01.15
Yeah. No. Okay.
00:07:01.18\00:07:02.52
No, seriously, if this works,
00:07:02.55\00:07:03.89
if you leave
where you're sleeping
00:07:03.92\00:07:05.32
and go to a different room
00:07:05.35\00:07:06.86
and take care of
what's on your mind,
00:07:06.89\00:07:08.52
if it's writing lists,
00:07:08.56\00:07:10.66
if it's bullet
points, whatever you've got...
00:07:10.69\00:07:12.03
That I've learned...
00:07:12.06\00:07:13.40
I've learned to do
it, I write it down
00:07:13.43\00:07:14.76
so that it's okay
to leave it behind
00:07:14.80\00:07:16.50
because tomorrow
the list is there.
00:07:16.53\00:07:18.07
It'll be there on
the kitchen table.
00:07:18.10\00:07:19.63
But then you go back to your bed
00:07:19.67\00:07:21.04
where it supposed to be
for your brain to sleep.
00:07:21.07\00:07:22.40
Now that makes
sense. Now I do not...
00:07:22.44\00:07:23.81
That does make sense.
I do not leave the bed.
00:07:23.84\00:07:26.47
I just deal with it there.
I have a notepad on the...
00:07:26.51\00:07:29.01
All sleep hygiene
protocols will tell you
00:07:29.04\00:07:30.88
to leave your
space you're sleeping
00:07:30.91\00:07:32.35
because you'll
develop an association
00:07:32.38\00:07:34.22
with your place of sleep
00:07:34.25\00:07:35.65
between anxiety and
trouble and problems
00:07:35.68\00:07:37.89
and your place of sleep.
00:07:37.92\00:07:39.25
And that does
make some good sense.
00:07:39.29\00:07:40.62
That makes a lot of
sense. The brains makes a lot...
00:07:40.66\00:07:41.99
I'm not good at leaving...
So because it makes sense...
00:07:42.02\00:07:43.86
Yes. Is it possible...
00:07:43.89\00:07:45.23
Now here it
comes, here it comes.
00:07:45.26\00:07:47.10
She's going to preach now.
00:07:47.13\00:07:48.50
Is it possible that
we could have buy-in?
00:07:48.53\00:07:50.63
Yeah.
00:07:50.67\00:07:52.00
It makes sense so
I'm then willing...
00:07:52.03\00:07:53.44
Oh, yeah, I'm
willing to do that.
00:07:53.47\00:07:55.34
So do you... Oh,
I'm willing to do that.
00:07:55.37\00:07:56.81
Okay. Here you go.
Will you sign the contract?
00:07:56.84\00:07:58.17
Yeah, yeah, I'll sign
it right there really.
00:07:58.21\00:08:00.94
It's a treatment
plan, Shawn. Yeah.
00:08:00.98\00:08:02.58
No, I'm willing
to do that. Okay.
00:08:02.61\00:08:03.95
So... I'm willing to...
00:08:03.98\00:08:05.31
And that's an
easy change to make.
00:08:05.35\00:08:06.68
So can you verbalize
00:08:06.72\00:08:08.05
what it is that you're
willing to do differently?
00:08:08.08\00:08:09.42
I'm willing to leave
the bed if I'm not sleeping
00:08:09.45\00:08:12.85
and go somewhere
else to deal with things,
00:08:12.89\00:08:15.39
and then come
back just for sleep.
00:08:15.42\00:08:16.83
Jean, did you hear that?
00:08:16.86\00:08:18.33
Do you know that like
you said you tried everything
00:08:18.36\00:08:19.69
and that's the basic?
00:08:19.73\00:08:21.06
Well, I have done it.
00:08:21.10\00:08:22.43
Okay, let me explain
what's happened in the past
00:08:22.46\00:08:23.80
when I've done that.
00:08:23.83\00:08:25.17
I didn't promise to
be an easy nut to crack,
00:08:25.20\00:08:26.53
but what happens is
00:08:26.57\00:08:27.90
I get interested
in the world around me
00:08:27.94\00:08:29.27
when I leave the bedroom
00:08:29.30\00:08:32.11
and then I'm up all night.
00:08:32.14\00:08:33.48
"Oh, my goodness, look at this.
00:08:33.51\00:08:34.84
There's a book a philosophy
that I haven't read yet."
00:08:34.88\00:08:37.08
I bought it six months ago,
00:08:37.11\00:08:38.85
and I'll just thumb
through it for a minute
00:08:38.88\00:08:40.22
over here in the living room.
00:08:40.25\00:08:41.58
And next thing, you
know, it's 4 o'clock.
00:08:41.62\00:08:43.28
Okay, then we have
a very specific place
00:08:43.32\00:08:45.45
that you're allowed to go to
00:08:45.49\00:08:46.82
where it doesn't
have a bunch of books.
00:08:46.86\00:08:48.19
Corner, I spent
my whole youth there.
00:08:48.22\00:08:49.56
Okay, not the
corner. We have to...
00:08:49.59\00:08:52.59
We'll call it something else,
00:08:52.63\00:08:54.00
but you can only go
to a very specific place
00:08:54.03\00:08:56.23
that doesn't have all
the distractions around it,
00:08:56.26\00:08:58.77
okay?
00:08:58.80\00:09:00.14
So sign the contract.
Yeah. Okay, I'll sign it.
00:09:00.17\00:09:01.80
There's nothing on there.
00:09:01.84\00:09:04.64
We're going to write
your treatment plan...
00:09:04.67\00:09:06.17
After I sign it? All right.
00:09:06.21\00:09:09.44
No, that does make sense.
00:09:09.48\00:09:11.31
Where do you go
that's not interesting?
00:09:11.35\00:09:13.15
One of the
afflictions I have, I think,
00:09:13.18\00:09:15.32
I don't know, if
it's an affliction...
00:09:15.35\00:09:16.69
Curiosity.
Everything is interesting.
00:09:16.72\00:09:18.65
Everything is interesting.
00:09:18.69\00:09:20.02
Go out... Thank God
for a wonderful mind.
00:09:20.06\00:09:21.39
I'll just go out and
scan in the backyard.
00:09:21.42\00:09:23.12
Yeah, I'll go
out in the backyard,
00:09:23.16\00:09:24.49
I'll clear my thoughts there.
00:09:24.53\00:09:25.86
And my goodness, there's a
moth I've never seen before.
00:09:25.89\00:09:27.93
And it's like,
"Where does that come from?"
00:09:27.96\00:09:29.70
And I wonder if I google it.
00:09:29.73\00:09:31.07
If we can figure out
where that... Everything...
00:09:31.10\00:09:33.03
I think Google and you
are like a bad combination.
00:09:33.07\00:09:36.00
It is a bad
combination. Yeah, it would be.
00:09:36.04\00:09:37.61
You can't look
just one thing up.
00:09:37.64\00:09:39.74
Exactly. But
everything's interesting.
00:09:39.77\00:09:41.68
So where do you go
that isn't interesting.
00:09:41.71\00:09:45.61
Yeah. Everything is interesting.
00:09:45.65\00:09:47.68
What have you tried in the
past to "shut your brain down"?
00:09:47.72\00:09:50.85
Some people rely on
anti-anxiety meds...
00:09:50.89\00:09:54.02
Sleep meds,
melatonin what have you tried?
00:09:54.06\00:09:56.49
This is probably a bad idea.
00:09:56.52\00:09:57.86
You're going to
recoil in horror.
00:09:57.89\00:09:59.23
But one thing...
00:09:59.26\00:10:00.60
I did two things,
white noise, number one.
00:10:00.63\00:10:01.96
There's
something about white noise
00:10:02.00\00:10:03.33
that helps your brain drift.
00:10:03.37\00:10:04.70
And if I can get
my brain to drift.
00:10:04.73\00:10:06.07
For who don't
know what that it is.
00:10:06.10\00:10:07.44
What is white noise?
00:10:07.47\00:10:08.80
White noise is like the
static on your television.
00:10:08.84\00:10:10.27
Or you can even get white
noise apps on your iPhone.
00:10:10.31\00:10:12.57
Yeah, I've got an
electric fan on my iPad
00:10:12.61\00:10:14.81
that I just turn on a fan.
00:10:14.84\00:10:16.18
A fan is white noise. Yeah.
00:10:16.21\00:10:17.81
And that somehow
gets your brain to drift.
00:10:17.85\00:10:19.28
The other thing I do is
00:10:19.31\00:10:20.65
I stick my
iPhone under my pillow
00:10:20.68\00:10:22.02
and I...
00:10:22.05\00:10:23.39
Nowadays with, you know,
tune in radio and other apps,
00:10:23.42\00:10:25.22
I can listen to any
radio station in the world,
00:10:25.25\00:10:27.49
3ABN, you can list to 3ABN.
00:10:27.52\00:10:29.29
I need somebody to talk.
00:10:29.32\00:10:30.69
In the old days,
I used to go down
00:10:30.73\00:10:32.06
and watch the preachers
at 2 in the morning on TV
00:10:32.09\00:10:35.00
and turn it really low.
00:10:35.03\00:10:36.70
You know,
there's actual sleep aids
00:10:36.73\00:10:39.37
that are
recordings of women speaking,
00:10:39.40\00:10:41.50
and they're usually
like in a librarian,
00:10:41.54\00:10:43.34
kind of, context.
00:10:43.37\00:10:44.71
And they're speaking in a way
00:10:44.74\00:10:46.07
that you can't really
hear what they're saying.
00:10:46.11\00:10:47.44
But only like...
00:10:47.48\00:10:48.81
And just the...
That's what I'm looking for.
00:10:48.84\00:10:50.18
And I find that suddenly
I'm paying, I'm trying...
00:10:50.21\00:10:52.18
And if I turn it
down low enough now
00:10:52.21\00:10:53.55
I have to listen
00:10:53.58\00:10:55.28
and everything else
fades into the background
00:10:55.32\00:10:57.09
but that interaction.
00:10:57.12\00:10:58.45
And I don't want to
use the word hypnosis
00:10:58.49\00:11:01.32
because I'm not a
fan of that whole...
00:11:01.36\00:11:03.12
but there's something about.
00:11:03.16\00:11:04.49
Very objectionable thing
about hypnosis is mind control,
00:11:04.53\00:11:06.39
one, mind
control, this is not...
00:11:06.43\00:11:07.76
Right. But this is
focused. It's calming.
00:11:07.80\00:11:09.40
This is calming. Yeah.
00:11:09.43\00:11:10.77
This is calming.
And that helps you?
00:11:10.80\00:11:12.13
Oh, yeah. Absolutely.
00:11:12.17\00:11:13.50
And then you wake
up at 2 in the morning
00:11:13.54\00:11:14.87
and change the channel and...
00:11:14.90\00:11:16.24
Yeah.
00:11:16.27\00:11:17.61
So I want to go
back to your fear though,
00:11:17.64\00:11:18.97
I think, that was
really fertile ground.
00:11:19.01\00:11:20.34
And the perfectionism.
00:11:20.38\00:11:22.11
I'm not going to
like how that is.
00:11:22.14\00:11:23.48
But I really think that
that you would be able to bless,
00:11:23.51\00:11:27.28
I mean, you're
blessing thousands
00:11:27.32\00:11:28.98
and maybe millions of
people with your ministry,
00:11:29.02\00:11:31.45
and it's awesome.
00:11:31.49\00:11:32.82
But I really think you
could bless more people
00:11:32.85\00:11:34.32
if you had a testimony
about overcoming perfectionism
00:11:34.36\00:11:36.93
because perfectionism does...
00:11:36.96\00:11:38.29
I mean, you're
such a jolly soul,
00:11:38.33\00:11:40.56
you laugh your way
through it, and then you admit,
00:11:40.60\00:11:42.33
you know...
00:11:42.36\00:11:43.70
but some people
it is their undoing.
00:11:43.73\00:11:45.50
So if we probe a little
deeper into the perfectionism...
00:11:45.53\00:11:48.17
Yeah, perfectionism is a word
00:11:48.20\00:11:49.54
that I,
probably, squirm with that
00:11:49.57\00:11:50.97
because in a religious
context that means something.
00:11:51.01\00:11:52.87
I know. And I
don't live in that world.
00:11:52.91\00:11:54.68
I don't live in the world
of religious perfectionism.
00:11:54.71\00:11:57.78
But so many people do.
00:11:57.81\00:11:59.15
But the
principles and the habits
00:11:59.18\00:12:00.52
carry over for many people
00:12:00.55\00:12:01.88
not maybe you've
successfully compartmentalized.
00:12:01.92\00:12:03.85
Oh, I totally have. Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:03.89\00:12:05.22
But, I mean, Shawn the sinless.
00:12:05.25\00:12:08.26
Okay, all right,
tell me in a sentence
00:12:08.29\00:12:10.53
what your home of
origin, upbringing, training,
00:12:10.56\00:12:14.53
said to you about
doing well at things,
00:12:14.56\00:12:17.20
and also what it
said about not doing well.
00:12:17.23\00:12:21.30
Immigrant parents.
00:12:21.34\00:12:24.14
I've thought about this,
you know, in the wee hours
00:12:24.17\00:12:25.51
when you're laying awake,
00:12:25.54\00:12:26.88
you wonder what's
doing this to you.
00:12:26.91\00:12:28.24
And so immigrant parents,
00:12:28.28\00:12:30.85
father who comes at 18 with $45,
00:12:30.88\00:12:33.21
and you got to make it.
00:12:33.25\00:12:34.62
And so there's
probably an atmosphere
00:12:34.65\00:12:36.42
of you've got to make it.
00:12:36.45\00:12:39.05
And I feel
responsibility for my family.
00:12:39.09\00:12:41.16
So I think I got to make it.
00:12:41.19\00:12:45.03
How am I going
to support my wife
00:12:45.06\00:12:46.46
if we retire one day?
00:12:46.49\00:12:47.83
How am I going to...
00:12:47.86\00:12:50.17
I've got to make it
was probably a huge part
00:12:50.20\00:12:52.93
of my upbringing
and working hard...
00:12:52.97\00:12:54.84
But wait a
minute, wait a minute.
00:12:54.87\00:12:56.20
There's a weird association
00:12:56.24\00:12:57.57
because you being
perfect in all your tweets
00:12:57.61\00:13:00.01
is not going to
have any impact at all.
00:13:00.04\00:13:01.38
No, I know.
00:13:01.41\00:13:02.74
As to whether you can
support your family or not.
00:13:02.78\00:13:04.11
A typo wouldn't. Yeah, like...
00:13:04.15\00:13:06.25
The English language
is well, I make my living.
00:13:06.28\00:13:07.62
It's an experiment, Shawn.
00:13:07.65\00:13:08.98
I know but you being perfect,
it's not going to hurt you,
00:13:09.02\00:13:11.12
you're still going to be
able to support your family.
00:13:11.15\00:13:12.72
So I don't accept that. Okay.
00:13:12.75\00:13:14.89
Yeah. Try again.
00:13:14.92\00:13:16.26
Oh, I definitely grew up
00:13:19.23\00:13:21.23
in an atmosphere
of, "You got to make it.
00:13:21.26\00:13:22.76
And do you?"
00:13:22.80\00:13:24.13
And probably, you know,
00:13:24.17\00:13:25.50
I grew up Dutch
Calvinists background,
00:13:25.53\00:13:26.87
which is a huge work ethic.
00:13:26.90\00:13:29.44
Work is an act of worship,
00:13:29.47\00:13:31.27
you do your very best
not because not for ego sake
00:13:31.31\00:13:35.04
or for pride sake
00:13:35.08\00:13:36.41
but because that's
how you want to your God,
00:13:36.44\00:13:40.02
that is an
element there as well.
00:13:40.05\00:13:41.68
Okay. That's really powerful.
00:13:41.72\00:13:43.32
So there's a
link. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:13:43.35\00:13:44.85
Oh, yeah.
00:13:44.89\00:13:46.22
This is how you get one lifetime
00:13:46.25\00:13:48.32
and your life is a
testimony to God's goodness.
00:13:48.36\00:13:52.69
That would have to be
subconscious if I'm doing that
00:13:52.73\00:13:54.66
because I don't start
out my day thinking...
00:13:54.70\00:13:56.87
Right.
00:13:56.90\00:13:58.23
Well, obviously,
something that's driving this
00:13:58.27\00:13:59.70
is subconscious.
00:13:59.73\00:14:01.07
You're not choosing
to not be able to sleep.
00:14:01.10\00:14:02.67
Right?
00:14:02.70\00:14:04.04
I do think there's
something significant going on
00:14:04.07\00:14:05.87
and, like, Jen mentioned anxiety
00:14:05.91\00:14:08.48
and I know you don't
really like that word.
00:14:08.51\00:14:10.58
But if you think of it as
when a person's under pressure
00:14:10.61\00:14:14.42
or has fear,
00:14:14.45\00:14:16.12
they tend to go to one or
the other end of a spectrum.
00:14:16.15\00:14:19.99
So if their tendency is
when they're overwhelmed
00:14:20.02\00:14:22.92
or under pressure
to become depressed,
00:14:22.96\00:14:25.63
then it's, kind of,
like if you were in a car
00:14:25.66\00:14:28.06
and you're experiencing pressure
00:14:28.10\00:14:30.67
or intensity of some kind,
00:14:30.70\00:14:32.43
the depressed person
calls in the backseat
00:14:32.47\00:14:34.74
and covers
themselves with a gray blanket
00:14:34.77\00:14:36.24
and huddles there
00:14:36.27\00:14:37.71
because they're
overwhelmed, they can't fix it.
00:14:37.74\00:14:39.74
Right.
00:14:39.77\00:14:41.11
I tend to be,
"Give me the wheel."
00:14:41.14\00:14:42.48
The opposite...
00:14:42.51\00:14:43.85
Exactly, the opposite reaction
is, "I think I've got this."
00:14:43.88\00:14:47.02
And you tighten
your grip on the wheel...
00:14:47.05\00:14:48.72
Yep. And you take over.
00:14:48.75\00:14:50.52
And that's exactly what I think
00:14:50.55\00:14:52.32
is driving what's going on here.
00:14:52.35\00:14:53.69
There is no question about that.
00:14:53.72\00:14:55.06
But there are things
00:14:55.09\00:14:56.42
that you're able to put yourself
00:14:56.46\00:14:57.79
in the passenger
seat and relax on.
00:14:57.83\00:15:00.23
So the question is why is it
00:15:00.26\00:15:02.06
that what happens
before you go to sleep
00:15:02.10\00:15:04.03
is in the driver's seat,
00:15:04.07\00:15:06.40
clutching the
steering wheel category?
00:15:06.43\00:15:08.47
And how could you move it
00:15:08.50\00:15:09.84
to being able to be
in the passenger seat?
00:15:09.87\00:15:11.91
Good question. Is
there some avoidance?
00:15:11.94\00:15:13.27
What would happen if
you didn't do your best?
00:15:13.31\00:15:16.88
Put it in a
sentence right from your gut
00:15:16.91\00:15:18.55
through your upbringing.
00:15:18.58\00:15:19.91
Really simple. I would
know I didn't do my best.
00:15:19.95\00:15:21.88
What would happen if you knew?
00:15:21.92\00:15:25.72
That... Only
that mean about you.
00:15:25.75\00:15:28.19
I actually derive joy
from knowing I did my best
00:15:28.22\00:15:30.83
and not doing
my best would be...
00:15:30.86\00:15:32.53
You are tough. I know.
00:15:32.56\00:15:34.40
I know, but I'm being honest.
I'm trying to be transparent.
00:15:34.43\00:15:37.37
And the reason I've
objected to the word anxiety
00:15:37.40\00:15:39.27
is I don't want people to
think there's a cold sweat
00:15:39.30\00:15:41.20
or that there's a, there's
not, it's just an active...
00:15:41.24\00:15:43.10
You don't have
the symptomatology
00:15:43.14\00:15:44.47
of the normal anxiety features.
00:15:44.51\00:15:45.97
No, I don't have panic attacks,
I don't have cold sweats,
00:15:46.01\00:15:48.88
I don't get the
knot in my stomach.
00:15:48.91\00:15:51.98
Maybe once in a blue moon,
00:15:52.01\00:15:53.48
who doesn't once in a blue moon?
00:15:53.52\00:15:55.18
It's I can't turn
it off. It's active.
00:15:55.22\00:15:57.59
It's racing
thought. It's racing thought.
00:15:57.62\00:16:00.12
I think there's some DNA here.
00:16:00.16\00:16:01.72
I don't think it's
all you being, you know,
00:16:01.76\00:16:04.06
damaged from
childhood or anything like that.
00:16:04.09\00:16:05.43
I think... Yeah,
it seems like you...
00:16:05.46\00:16:06.80
No, I had a
really good childhood.
00:16:06.83\00:16:08.16
Let me just say.
00:16:08.20\00:16:09.53
Mom and Dad watched
3ABN, and it was really great.
00:16:09.56\00:16:10.90
3ABN? Seriously?
00:16:10.93\00:16:12.47
No, no, I had a good childhood.
00:16:12.50\00:16:13.84
Did you? Yeah, sure. I did.
00:16:13.87\00:16:15.20
Yeah. You were happy? Oh, yeah.
00:16:15.24\00:16:16.57
Well adjusted.
00:16:16.60\00:16:17.94
I don't know, you know
me, well adjusted am I?
00:16:17.97\00:16:20.28
You have children? Yeah, I do.
00:16:20.31\00:16:22.28
How does this
impact your parenting
00:16:22.31\00:16:24.31
and your relationship with them?
00:16:24.35\00:16:26.41
That's a really good question.
00:16:26.45\00:16:27.78
Well, I tend to
demand quite a bit.
00:16:27.82\00:16:33.56
Our motto in our house
is work first, play later.
00:16:33.59\00:16:35.76
I'm thinking, I could
have actually verbalize that,
00:16:35.79\00:16:38.39
but I wanted to ask
00:16:38.43\00:16:39.76
because I want to
make sure you are aware
00:16:39.79\00:16:42.90
that they're
making some transference
00:16:42.93\00:16:44.73
between how you expect from you.
00:16:44.77\00:16:46.10
I actually think
about that a lot.
00:16:46.13\00:16:47.47
And what do you think
when you think about that?
00:16:47.50\00:16:49.30
I try to back off a bit.
I try to say, "It's okay."
00:16:49.34\00:16:51.84
Now the other
component there is, of course,
00:16:51.87\00:16:54.28
my kids have
grown up in a fishbowl.
00:16:54.31\00:16:56.64
So I've
deliberately try to not...
00:16:56.68\00:16:59.58
You know, on
something's I demand things,
00:16:59.61\00:17:00.95
"You know what?
00:17:00.98\00:17:02.32
You didn't need
to get that grade."
00:17:02.35\00:17:03.72
Yeah. You know?
00:17:03.75\00:17:05.09
"You didn't need
to get that grade,
00:17:05.12\00:17:06.45
you can do better."
00:17:06.49\00:17:07.82
So you give them
permission for a few typos.
00:17:07.86\00:17:09.19
Oh, yeah. Good.
00:17:09.22\00:17:10.63
My kids mess up
far less than I do.
00:17:10.66\00:17:14.03
I do give
permission for that and...
00:17:14.06\00:17:15.53
You have two daughters,
right? Two daughters. Yeah.
00:17:15.56\00:17:16.93
And that's it.
00:17:16.97\00:17:18.30
That's right. Okay.
00:17:18.33\00:17:19.67
And so I'm aware
00:17:19.70\00:17:21.04
of every young
man in the country.
00:17:21.07\00:17:22.40
Have they ever said to
you, "You know, Dad..."
00:17:22.44\00:17:23.77
What?
00:17:23.81\00:17:25.14
I'm aware of every young man
00:17:25.17\00:17:26.51
in the
continental United States.
00:17:26.54\00:17:27.88
I know where they are.
00:17:27.91\00:17:29.24
Modified your
views on gun control.
00:17:29.28\00:17:31.48
So they ever told
you, "You know, Dad,
00:17:31.51\00:17:34.58
can't you just let
go or we just feel like
00:17:34.62\00:17:36.22
we're going to make a
mistake, and we're so worried"
00:17:36.25\00:17:38.39
or have they
conveyed any of that to you?
00:17:38.42\00:17:40.49
Once in a while.
00:17:40.52\00:17:41.86
Once in a while,
00:17:41.89\00:17:43.69
not very often, and
I'm quite willing...
00:17:43.73\00:17:46.59
I'm quite willing to
take it if it's sincere
00:17:46.63\00:17:50.23
and I'm not willing
to take it as an excuse.
00:17:50.27\00:17:52.40
So if a child says,
00:17:52.43\00:17:53.77
"Well, maybe that's
all I'm capable of."
00:17:53.80\00:17:55.34
Yeah, you're
like... No, not a chance.
00:17:55.37\00:17:57.67
You know, do I
demand a road scholar?
00:17:57.71\00:18:01.04
No, no, I don't.
00:18:01.08\00:18:03.78
But I am cognizant of the
fact that if I'm highly driven
00:18:03.81\00:18:07.58
that I might expect
that if people who aren't
00:18:07.62\00:18:10.59
and put too much
pressure on them,
00:18:10.62\00:18:12.35
I do think about that.
00:18:12.39\00:18:13.72
Has the drivenness
ever challenged bonding
00:18:13.76\00:18:17.93
because there's
kind of a tension
00:18:17.96\00:18:20.23
between relationship
and task orientation.
00:18:20.26\00:18:23.90
People tend to be
on a spectrum somewhere
00:18:23.93\00:18:25.50
so they may be very
task achievement oriented
00:18:25.53\00:18:27.87
or some people may be
more relationally oriented
00:18:27.90\00:18:29.97
but sometimes those
things come to sorts points,
00:18:30.01\00:18:31.81
so have you ever
noticed in your relationship,
00:18:31.84\00:18:33.58
for instance, with your kids
00:18:33.61\00:18:35.04
that the drivenness
factor of your whole family
00:18:35.08\00:18:36.98
because you're all
like high achievers.
00:18:37.01\00:18:38.35
Yeah, we're all four. Yeah.
00:18:38.38\00:18:39.71
So has that ever got
in the way of bonding?
00:18:39.75\00:18:41.65
No, we're really close. Are you?
00:18:41.68\00:18:43.72
I have to say, and I thank God
for that every day, and I am...
00:18:43.75\00:18:48.39
You know, do we ever
have moments of tension?
00:18:48.42\00:18:50.59
I got teenage kids. Sure we do.
00:18:50.63\00:18:52.29
It's like, "Don't give me that."
00:18:52.33\00:18:53.66
It's normal.
"Don't give me that."
00:18:53.70\00:18:55.03
You know, that's
fine. Don't give who what?
00:18:55.06\00:18:56.40
Don't give me that
excuse or like give me...
00:18:56.43\00:18:58.37
You say that to your
daughters. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
00:18:58.40\00:19:02.04
But I... we're
close. We're close.
00:19:02.07\00:19:05.61
You know, and I grew up...
00:19:05.64\00:19:06.98
Well, I had a good family
growing up, but we weren't...
00:19:07.01\00:19:10.01
I wouldn't describe us as
close as my family is now.
00:19:10.05\00:19:14.02
And so I'm still daddy and
that I enjoyed that moment,
00:19:14.05\00:19:18.22
by the way, Jean
got demoted to mom,
00:19:18.25\00:19:21.62
and I'm still daddy, but...
00:19:21.66\00:19:23.56
What do you
mean she got demoted?
00:19:23.59\00:19:24.99
Mommy versus
mom. Dad versus daddy.
00:19:25.03\00:19:26.36
Oh, sort of mommy, mommy,
mommy, and she became mom,
00:19:26.39\00:19:27.73
and I'm still daddy.
00:19:27.76\00:19:29.56
How do you find time
for family and relationship?
00:19:29.60\00:19:32.60
It's not easy. It's true.
00:19:32.63\00:19:34.34
Our life has been a typical.
00:19:34.37\00:19:36.20
And that in our
children's youngest years
00:19:36.24\00:19:40.61
we were on the road
220, 230 days a year.
00:19:40.64\00:19:43.65
With the whole
family. Sometimes.
00:19:43.68\00:19:45.68
And then we decided
00:19:45.71\00:19:47.05
that takes too much
of a toll on our children
00:19:47.08\00:19:49.22
at different time
zone every other day
00:19:49.25\00:19:51.15
and they're little,
00:19:51.19\00:19:52.52
and so then it was me
on the road quite a bit,
00:19:52.55\00:19:55.52
you know, because
we had to balance,
00:19:55.56\00:19:57.69
you know, how much
time do we take together
00:19:57.73\00:19:59.06
and how much is
this actually damaging,
00:19:59.09\00:20:00.93
you know, they
don't have a life,
00:20:00.96\00:20:02.30
they don't have
friends, they don't have...
00:20:02.33\00:20:03.77
And that wasn't
easy. Yeah, yeah.
00:20:03.80\00:20:05.53
But are we close? Yeah.
00:20:05.57\00:20:06.90
My daughter
called me last night,
00:20:06.94\00:20:08.27
"Hey, Dad, I'm
thinking about this at college,
00:20:08.30\00:20:09.87
what do you think?"
00:20:09.90\00:20:11.51
This happens all the
time. We've been very open.
00:20:11.54\00:20:13.41
We talk about
everything. We talk about...
00:20:13.44\00:20:15.94
We talk about
everything. Everything.
00:20:15.98\00:20:17.55
We talk about everything.
00:20:17.58\00:20:18.91
And my kids are far more open
00:20:18.95\00:20:20.28
than I would
have been as a child,
00:20:20.32\00:20:21.65
you know, the
Dutch and the German
00:20:21.68\00:20:23.32
don't talk about certain things.
00:20:23.35\00:20:24.69
They're not talkers.
00:20:24.72\00:20:26.05
Yeah, they don't
share emotions and things.
00:20:26.09\00:20:27.42
No, I don't share emotions.
00:20:27.46\00:20:28.79
You don't? I have to now.
00:20:28.82\00:20:30.16
You've been sharing emotions
for the last hour, Shawn.
00:20:30.19\00:20:31.53
Yeah, I know, I
know but... Yeah.
00:20:31.56\00:20:32.89
That gratitude of attitude.
00:20:32.93\00:20:34.26
Yes. Yeah. Very good.
00:20:34.30\00:20:35.63
I get a gold star
for being emotional.
00:20:35.66\00:20:37.00
You do get a gold star.
00:20:37.03\00:20:38.37
You took courage to
stand before this tribunal.
00:20:38.40\00:20:42.97
But we're not done with you yet.
00:20:43.00\00:20:44.34
We have a few more minutes so...
00:20:44.37\00:20:45.71
I want to take Jen's question
00:20:45.74\00:20:47.08
that she's asked
you like three times.
00:20:47.11\00:20:48.44
And I've avoided.
00:20:48.48\00:20:49.81
Yeah. Okay.
00:20:49.84\00:20:51.18
So we're just going to
try and say it one more time.
00:20:51.21\00:20:52.55
Okay.
00:20:52.58\00:20:53.92
If you weren't ready or
you didn't quite make it
00:20:53.95\00:20:57.15
'cause you said your
internal drivenness is,
00:20:57.19\00:21:00.76
"I got to make it."
00:21:00.79\00:21:04.23
If you didn't,
what would happen?
00:21:04.26\00:21:08.06
I would know and
that's the bottom line.
00:21:08.10\00:21:09.76
That's it. I would know.
00:21:09.80\00:21:11.37
You over and over again
appear as your own taskmaster,
00:21:11.40\00:21:16.44
I'm not going to say
tyrant, but taskmaster.
00:21:16.47\00:21:17.81
I don't need
somebody to drive me.
00:21:17.84\00:21:19.17
I never have. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:19.21\00:21:20.91
I never have.
00:21:20.94\00:21:22.28
You would know that
you didn't make it, but...
00:21:22.31\00:21:24.15
And then what?
And what would happen?
00:21:24.18\00:21:26.98
What would be so
bad? I would know.
00:21:27.02\00:21:29.32
I think that's it.
That's the bottom line.
00:21:29.35\00:21:30.69
Could you accept yourself
if you didn't do your best?
00:21:30.72\00:21:34.32
I don't know.
00:21:34.36\00:21:35.99
It would be worth
experimenting with.
00:21:36.02\00:21:37.36
Would your wife and
your girls still love you?
00:21:37.39\00:21:39.86
Oh, yeah. Oh, I hope so.
00:21:39.89\00:21:41.23
Would Jesus still
love you? Oh, of course.
00:21:41.26\00:21:43.63
Isn't that the gospel? It is.
00:21:43.67\00:21:46.57
Would Shawn still loves Shawn?
00:21:46.60\00:21:48.90
Oh, yeah. Okay.
00:21:48.94\00:21:50.27
Oh, yeah. That's not...
00:21:50.31\00:21:51.84
I don't know how
much I love myself.
00:21:51.87\00:21:54.48
I don't know how
much I love myself.
00:21:54.51\00:21:55.84
But you would still
respect yourself even if you...
00:21:55.88\00:21:57.21
Oh, yeah. I
don't think that's...
00:21:57.25\00:21:58.61
'Cause I've messed up
colossally on occasion,
00:21:58.65\00:22:00.82
and it's...
00:22:00.85\00:22:02.18
I can roll with that.
00:22:02.22\00:22:03.55
Can you tell us
about a time you messed up?
00:22:03.59\00:22:07.36
There's not that
many come to think.
00:22:07.39\00:22:10.63
Oh, yeah. I
have gone in think...
00:22:10.66\00:22:13.03
I have gone in
say for a presentation
00:22:13.06\00:22:16.06
where I thought,
"I can wing that."
00:22:16.10\00:22:18.63
And at the end, I
knew, A, I didn't wing it,
00:22:18.67\00:22:22.30
B, it didn't obtain the
desired effect from that room.
00:22:22.34\00:22:25.11
What do you mean
you didn't wing it?
00:22:25.14\00:22:26.47
Like...
00:22:26.51\00:22:27.84
I didn't wing it like I
didn't successfully wing it.
00:22:27.88\00:22:29.28
I really didn't wing
it. We got a C versus an A.
00:22:29.31\00:22:31.98
You bet. You bet.
00:22:32.01\00:22:33.35
Where I walked in and I thought,
00:22:33.38\00:22:34.72
"I'm going to
convince that board no problem,
00:22:34.75\00:22:36.08
I've done this a
100 times before."
00:22:36.12\00:22:37.45
And bam, it fell apart
on me and then I wished,
00:22:37.49\00:22:42.02
"Oh, I should have
spent a little time on that."
00:22:42.06\00:22:46.63
Yeah, one of the...
00:22:46.66\00:22:48.00
You know, there is a
level of if I get a phone call,
00:22:48.03\00:22:50.70
"Hey, can you come and speak?"
00:22:50.73\00:22:52.40
My first thought is,
00:22:52.43\00:22:53.77
"Boy, do I have time
to get ready for that?"
00:22:53.80\00:22:55.50
Really? Always.
00:22:55.54\00:22:56.87
You're really,
really into being prepared?
00:22:56.91\00:22:58.71
Yes.
00:22:58.74\00:23:00.08
Very important to note. Yes.
00:23:00.11\00:23:01.44
Because it looks
natural if you're prepared.
00:23:01.48\00:23:03.45
Yeah. That's right.
00:23:03.48\00:23:04.81
It's a blessing
and a curse thing.
00:23:04.85\00:23:06.18
It's just finding
that balance point.
00:23:06.21\00:23:08.82
I mean,
perfectionism can be a curse,
00:23:08.85\00:23:12.32
but with balance,
00:23:12.35\00:23:13.69
and I think what Jen
is just trying to propose
00:23:13.72\00:23:15.32
and we're all
trying to propose is
00:23:15.36\00:23:17.66
would you take the suggestion
of doing the experiment
00:23:17.69\00:23:22.23
of just practicing with
some intentional downtime
00:23:22.26\00:23:27.20
or intentional typos,
however, they look for you,
00:23:27.24\00:23:30.34
they don't have
to be on Twitter.
00:23:30.37\00:23:32.24
I'll be watching Twitter. Okay.
00:23:32.27\00:23:33.61
Oh, we're not
gonna be doing typos.
00:23:33.64\00:23:35.88
I mean, like,
whatever that looks like
00:23:35.91\00:23:37.91
even if it's just with
when you guys have family night
00:23:37.95\00:23:41.15
just permission for being human.
00:23:41.18\00:23:45.09
I mean, because that's I think
00:23:45.12\00:23:46.45
our message we're
wanting to get out there
00:23:46.49\00:23:47.89
is we're really all just human
00:23:47.92\00:23:50.43
trying to get ready
for Jesus to return, right?
00:23:50.46\00:23:53.26
Yeah, absolutely. I
don't mind being human.
00:23:53.29\00:23:56.10
Yeah, it's not
that he's not human.
00:23:56.13\00:23:57.73
He's very human.
00:23:57.77\00:23:59.10
It's the doing the best
he can do in usually tasks
00:23:59.13\00:24:03.61
that have to do
with communication.
00:24:03.64\00:24:04.97
Here's another
little piece of it.
00:24:05.01\00:24:06.34
And maybe we're out of
time, but I don't know.
00:24:06.37\00:24:07.94
But I'm an off the
charts introvert by nature,
00:24:07.98\00:24:10.41
and I live in an
extroverted world,
00:24:10.45\00:24:12.81
and I live in an
extroverted career.
00:24:12.85\00:24:14.45
Yes.
00:24:14.48\00:24:15.82
And so for me to walk
out in front of 2,000 people
00:24:15.85\00:24:18.45
and speak takes
everything I've got to...
00:24:18.49\00:24:21.19
So there's an element
there in the type of preparation
00:24:21.22\00:24:24.19
is that for me to do
that's completely unnatural.
00:24:24.23\00:24:27.56
I'm terrified
of public speaking.
00:24:27.60\00:24:28.93
So you overcompensate
with your preparation.
00:24:28.96\00:24:30.53
Oh, yeah. This is it.
00:24:30.57\00:24:32.37
This is why the pop
ups are so big at night.
00:24:32.40\00:24:35.57
Yeah.
00:24:35.60\00:24:36.94
'Cause it's your subconscious
is sorting things out
00:24:36.97\00:24:40.28
and putting things in files.
00:24:40.31\00:24:42.18
It's what you
do as an introvert.
00:24:42.21\00:24:44.95
Yeah. Well, I'm off the charts.
00:24:44.98\00:24:46.35
I'm shy, I don't
like social gatherings,
00:24:46.38\00:24:49.22
I can't stand potluck
00:24:49.25\00:24:50.72
because it's, you
know, it's like...
00:24:50.75\00:24:52.19
But let me quickly insert this
00:24:52.22\00:24:54.42
and that is as Shawn
told me off the camera
00:24:54.46\00:24:57.23
that at the end of
all of his lectures,
00:24:57.26\00:25:00.80
he stays until the last
person has been ministered
00:25:00.83\00:25:04.23
to which I want to give you
not 10 but 20 stars for that
00:25:04.27\00:25:07.74
because so many public speakers,
00:25:07.77\00:25:09.60
they finish their
job, they walk off,
00:25:09.64\00:25:11.87
and they won't associate.
00:25:11.91\00:25:13.24
It's almost like they
think they're on another level.
00:25:13.27\00:25:14.61
But you come and
you minister to people,
00:25:14.64\00:25:16.81
and you will not
leave, you said, until...
00:25:16.85\00:25:18.88
I mean, there
are some exceptions.
00:25:18.91\00:25:20.25
Sometimes I do
because the introverted in me
00:25:20.28\00:25:21.62
gets exhausted.
00:25:21.65\00:25:22.98
Some nights I
go, "I've had enough,
00:25:23.02\00:25:24.35
I'm going to go."
00:25:24.39\00:25:25.72
But barring
exhaustion. Yeah. Yeah, I do it.
00:25:25.75\00:25:27.09
But I don't get up
front because I enjoy it,
00:25:27.12\00:25:28.96
I don't enjoy it.
00:25:28.99\00:25:30.33
I get up front
because those people
00:25:30.36\00:25:31.69
are in the same
boat I was once in
00:25:31.73\00:25:33.19
and they need some help.
00:25:33.23\00:25:34.56
And I remember when
you first came on the scene
00:25:34.60\00:25:36.03
you were Henry
Feyer Robbins understudy?
00:25:36.06\00:25:39.93
Yeah. Is that the right word?
00:25:39.97\00:25:41.30
Henry? I suppose so.
00:25:41.34\00:25:42.67
And you were, kind of,
working with him from Canada.
00:25:42.70\00:25:44.04
Yeah.
00:25:44.07\00:25:45.41
And then you took over,
it is written initially,
00:25:45.44\00:25:47.38
and I remember that
00:25:47.41\00:25:48.74
and I remember when
you first started speaking
00:25:48.78\00:25:50.11
at campaign meetings so
friend of mine called me
00:25:50.15\00:25:51.61
and said, "This
new guy Shawn Boonstra
00:25:51.65\00:25:52.98
is a really good speaker,
and he's really friendly.
00:25:53.01\00:25:55.55
He talks to people afterward,
00:25:55.58\00:25:57.49
and he's just really like
cordial and affable and..."
00:25:57.52\00:26:00.79
because that meant a lot to us
00:26:00.82\00:26:02.16
because we want to
know that the people...
00:26:02.19\00:26:03.83
You know, we're all women,
00:26:03.86\00:26:05.19
and we tend not to
get the spots up there
00:26:05.23\00:26:06.63
tends to be men,
00:26:06.66\00:26:08.00
and we want to know
those men are the caring,
00:26:08.03\00:26:10.83
people that are willing
to come down to our level
00:26:10.87\00:26:12.60
so to speak.
00:26:12.63\00:26:13.97
So that I just want to
say that means a lot to me
00:26:14.00\00:26:15.34
that you do that way.
00:26:15.37\00:26:16.71
I'm glad it's
blessing people always.
00:26:16.74\00:26:18.07
And you've always been
very friendly to me personally,
00:26:18.11\00:26:19.57
I've never felt like he
thinks he's just all that
00:26:19.61\00:26:21.44
and just untouchable.
00:26:21.48\00:26:22.81
I know I'm not all that.
00:26:22.84\00:26:25.45
Shawn, you
mentioned a couple things
00:26:25.48\00:26:26.82
that work for you.
00:26:26.85\00:26:28.18
Yeah.
00:26:28.22\00:26:29.55
For the chronic
struggler of insomnia out there
00:26:29.58\00:26:31.92
that maybe travels...
00:26:31.95\00:26:33.29
I mean, you travel times up.
00:26:33.32\00:26:34.66
Oh, yeah. So you
don't just travel.
00:26:34.69\00:26:36.22
What works the best for
you in those situations?
00:26:36.26\00:26:38.13
In about one minute or less?
00:26:38.16\00:26:39.73
White noise,
something to distract me.
00:26:39.76\00:26:42.03
I need something to distract me.
00:26:42.06\00:26:43.40
And if it's visual, if
it's reading, forget it,
00:26:43.43\00:26:45.23
I'm going to get
engaged, it's got to be audible,
00:26:45.27\00:26:47.30
lights out, radio, talk radio,
00:26:47.34\00:26:50.31
and the more boring...
00:26:50.34\00:26:51.67
The better. The better.
00:26:51.71\00:26:53.04
And how do you feel
about when people write you
00:26:53.07\00:26:54.41
with remedies and
different treatments
00:26:54.44\00:26:56.51
for insomnia when you
admit your health problems?
00:26:56.54\00:26:58.21
Sometimes I
laugh about it. Yeah.
00:26:58.25\00:26:59.91
Please don't
write. Yes, I tried that.
00:26:59.95\00:27:02.95
Because you tried everything.
00:27:02.98\00:27:04.32
You've tried melatonin,
you've tried valerian,
00:27:04.35\00:27:05.72
you've tried...
00:27:05.75\00:27:07.09
You've really gone...
00:27:07.12\00:27:08.46
I've done a sleep
clinic, they just told me,
00:27:08.49\00:27:09.82
"Boy, you really don't sleep."
00:27:09.86\00:27:11.59
Thanks. Oh, thanks. Hopeless.
00:27:11.63\00:27:13.23
Yeah.
00:27:13.26\00:27:15.20
No, I tried it all the
valerian, the melatonin.
00:27:15.23\00:27:17.50
Melatonin gives you nightmares.
00:27:17.53\00:27:18.87
Yeah. Really? Oh, yeah.
00:27:18.90\00:27:20.24
Not me. Oh, really?
00:27:20.27\00:27:21.60
Yeah. That's unique to you.
00:27:21.64\00:27:23.54
But you've tried, you
think, just about everything,
00:27:23.57\00:27:27.01
and you appreciate the thought
00:27:27.04\00:27:28.44
but don't bother is that
what you want to say to people.
00:27:28.48\00:27:30.05
Yeah, please
don't. Please don't.
00:27:30.08\00:27:32.51
All right, we are so grateful
00:27:32.55\00:27:35.22
that you've joined us
for this amazing program
00:27:35.25\00:27:37.55
on about the man
who almost never slept.
00:27:37.59\00:27:40.16
He's getting a whopping
three to four hours every night
00:27:40.19\00:27:42.82
these days.
00:27:42.86\00:27:44.19
And we're so thankful for that
because it used to be worse.
00:27:44.23\00:27:46.49
But we've really
plumbed the depths
00:27:46.53\00:27:48.43
of Shawn Boonstra psyche,
and it's been a wild ride.
00:27:48.46\00:27:52.23
Thank you for joining
us and may you be blessed
00:27:52.27\00:27:54.57
and may you sleep well tonight
00:27:54.60\00:27:55.94
because He gives
His beloved sleep.
00:27:55.97\00:27:57.47