Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
00:00:27.22\00:00:29.32
We're so glad you've
joined us for our program today.
00:00:29.36\00:00:32.36
We're going to be talking about
sleep and sleep deprivation
00:00:32.39\00:00:36.56
and insomnia and
things like that.
00:00:36.60\00:00:38.40
But I want to
ask you a question.
00:00:38.43\00:00:40.34
What do president Donald
Trump, Twitter CEO Jack Dorsey,
00:00:40.37\00:00:44.24
Pepsico chairwoman Indra Nooyi,
Entrepreneur Martha Stewart,
00:00:44.27\00:00:48.71
German Chancellor Angela Merkel,
00:00:48.74\00:00:51.11
and the late Thomas Edison
00:00:51.15\00:00:53.01
and Leonardo da
Vinci have in common?
00:00:53.05\00:00:55.98
They all slept four
hours or less per night.
00:00:56.02\00:01:00.09
Today our guest is one of those
people that doesn't sleep...
00:01:00.12\00:01:03.99
Maybe not even
four hours per night,
00:01:04.03\00:01:05.46
he's going to tell us about
his miserable life of insomnia,
00:01:05.49\00:01:09.00
Shawn Boonstra.
00:01:09.03\00:01:10.37
You've tried so many
things and so far no success.
00:01:10.40\00:01:13.54
Am I right? Yeah,
that's probably true.
00:01:13.57\00:01:15.20
I think from about
the age of eight on,
00:01:15.24\00:01:17.57
I don't remember ever sleeping
through the whole night.
00:01:17.61\00:01:20.11
I don't have any recollection
of ever going to bed
00:01:20.14\00:01:23.14
and waking up at morning time,
at breakfast time and saying,
00:01:23.18\00:01:26.05
"Oh, I slept all night."
00:01:26.08\00:01:27.42
That's never happened for me.
00:01:27.45\00:01:29.05
And probably four or
five hours on average.
00:01:29.08\00:01:30.59
Okay, all right.
00:01:30.62\00:01:31.95
You poor thing, I
really feel for you, I do.
00:01:31.99\00:01:33.59
But I want to put some
across to you, so normally,
00:01:33.62\00:01:36.39
sleep deprivation
has been correlated
00:01:36.42\00:01:38.43
with a number
of health problems,
00:01:38.46\00:01:40.56
memory issues,
difficulty focusing, low mood,
00:01:40.60\00:01:43.57
reduced immune system function,
accidents, no wonder there,
00:01:43.60\00:01:47.80
high blood pressure,
weight gain, lower sex drive,
00:01:47.84\00:01:50.77
heart disease,
diabetes risk, poor balance,
00:01:50.81\00:01:53.48
there's a condition
called fatal familial insomnia,
00:01:53.51\00:01:55.74
only about 100
people in the world have it,
00:01:55.78\00:01:57.45
it's caused by a
mutation of a gene,
00:01:57.48\00:01:59.65
and ultimately makes
people unable to sleep.
00:01:59.68\00:02:02.48
They develop paranoia,
00:02:02.52\00:02:03.85
they ultimately
develop dementia,
00:02:03.89\00:02:05.75
and they die.
00:02:05.79\00:02:07.12
So much to look forward to.
00:02:07.16\00:02:10.26
I regret coming on the show.
00:02:10.29\00:02:11.86
How is it for a prognosis, okay?
00:02:11.89\00:02:15.03
Okay, but there are basically
two categories of individuals
00:02:15.06\00:02:18.37
who do not sleep much,
00:02:18.40\00:02:20.27
sleep deprivation
survivors and short sleepers,
00:02:20.30\00:02:23.71
and I want to
identify the difference.
00:02:23.74\00:02:25.51
Some people who seem
to need little sleep,
00:02:25.54\00:02:28.24
actually just
power through the effects
00:02:28.28\00:02:30.68
of sleep deprivation
better than the rest of us.
00:02:30.71\00:02:33.55
But short sleepers are in a
different category altogether,
00:02:33.58\00:02:36.38
so I'm going to
quote Dr. Christopher Jones
00:02:36.42\00:02:38.19
professor of clinical neurology
at the University of Utah,
00:02:38.22\00:02:41.22
and he says that he
has only identified about
00:02:41.26\00:02:43.32
20 true short sleepers,
00:02:43.36\00:02:45.79
and he says that they share some
00:02:45.83\00:02:47.16
fascinating characteristics.
00:02:47.20\00:02:48.53
Number one,
00:02:48.56\00:02:49.90
their circadian
rhythms are just different,
00:02:49.93\00:02:51.30
their body clock, so to speak,
their moods tend to be upbeat,
00:02:51.33\00:02:55.20
they're thinner than average,
00:02:55.24\00:02:57.31
even though people
that are sleep deprived
00:02:57.34\00:02:59.11
tend to gain weight,
00:02:59.14\00:03:00.48
they tend to have
00:03:00.51\00:03:01.84
a high tolerance
for physical pain,
00:03:01.88\00:03:03.85
and they tend to
be very optimistic
00:03:03.88\00:03:06.41
and not take psychological
setbacks very hard.
00:03:06.45\00:03:10.19
So they are very buoyant people.
00:03:10.22\00:03:13.29
Short sleepers are
part of the sleep elite,
00:03:13.32\00:03:15.42
comprising about one to
three percent of the population.
00:03:15.46\00:03:17.99
Hope that makes
you feel special.
00:03:18.03\00:03:20.23
And I'm quoting now,
00:03:20.26\00:03:22.26
"1 out of every
100 people who believe
00:03:22.30\00:03:24.60
they only need 5
or 6 hours of sleep,
00:03:24.63\00:03:27.64
only about 5 of them really do,"
00:03:27.67\00:03:29.64
and that's
psychiatrist is Daniel Buysse,
00:03:29.67\00:03:31.34
and he says, "The rest end
up chronically sleep deprived,
00:03:31.37\00:03:34.41
part of the
one-third of the US adults
00:03:34.44\00:03:36.54
who get less
than the recommended
00:03:36.58\00:03:38.55
seven hours of sleep per night."
00:03:38.58\00:03:40.92
So which one are you?
00:03:40.95\00:03:43.65
I don't know.
00:03:43.69\00:03:45.02
A short sleeper
00:03:45.05\00:03:46.72
or a sleep deprivation
survivor, do you know?
00:03:46.76\00:03:50.73
I don't know
because I think, sometimes,
00:03:50.76\00:03:53.36
I absolutely feel it.
00:03:53.40\00:03:55.03
I get little sleep,
but I wish I got more.
00:03:55.06\00:03:57.50
So it's not like I
sleep four hours and go,
00:03:57.53\00:03:59.97
"Oh, wow, that was great,"
00:04:00.00\00:04:01.40
and get on with the
day and I'm happy about it.
00:04:01.44\00:04:04.34
Often, you know,
what's strange is that
00:04:04.37\00:04:05.71
when 5 o'clock rolls around,
00:04:05.74\00:04:07.08
it's time to get
up, now I could sleep.
00:04:07.11\00:04:09.54
Now I would love to sleep.
00:04:09.58\00:04:11.18
And so I don't
know that I would say
00:04:11.21\00:04:12.88
that I'm one of
those one percent
00:04:12.91\00:04:14.82
that can get by on 4
or 5 hours and loves it.
00:04:14.85\00:04:17.75
Do I power through?
00:04:17.79\00:04:19.12
Yeah, I power
through it all the time.
00:04:19.15\00:04:21.72
I tend to be happy,
I tend to be easygoing,
00:04:21.76\00:04:24.89
but I
absolutely feel the effects
00:04:24.93\00:04:26.53
of sleep deprivation,
particularly in the mornings.
00:04:26.56\00:04:29.20
You can't be a short sleeper
then 'cause short sleepers
00:04:29.23\00:04:31.30
don't feel the
effects of sleep deprivation,
00:04:31.33\00:04:33.03
they get four or less per night.
00:04:33.07\00:04:34.80
No, I often wish
I could get more.
00:04:34.84\00:04:36.30
So what are the effects?
00:04:36.34\00:04:37.67
What effects
that you feel, Shawn?
00:04:37.71\00:04:39.91
I think...
00:04:39.94\00:04:41.61
How do I describe this?
I'll describe it this way.
00:04:41.64\00:04:43.61
In the morning, everything
is too bright and loud,
00:04:43.65\00:04:45.21
everything is
too bright and loud.
00:04:45.25\00:04:46.78
It's like, "Oh,
turn down the lights,
00:04:46.82\00:04:48.58
turn down your voice,
00:04:48.62\00:04:49.95
I am not ready
for this world yet."
00:04:49.98\00:04:51.52
Yeah, and so...
00:04:51.55\00:04:52.89
So you're the
classic not a morning person.
00:04:52.92\00:04:55.26
No, and I've got a
houseful of morning people.
00:04:55.29\00:04:58.59
I had a father, who is a...
00:04:58.63\00:05:00.00
Or still is, he's still
around, a morning person,
00:05:00.03\00:05:02.96
he used to get up and do
dishes at 5:00 in the morning
00:05:03.00\00:05:04.93
before he went to work,
and I'd be, "Oh, no, no."
00:05:04.97\00:05:07.54
And he would sing as
he was washing the dishes.
00:05:07.57\00:05:09.70
To this day, there's a certain
00:05:09.74\00:05:11.24
little Bible
course I hate seeing it.
00:05:11.27\00:05:16.04
Do you think you might have
some sensory processing stuff
00:05:16.08\00:05:18.25
because it sounds like
you really react to sights
00:05:18.28\00:05:20.48
and sounds, you
know, pretty intensely.
00:05:20.52\00:05:22.45
No, no, it's just... I can't...
00:05:22.48\00:05:26.25
You guys are the
experts, that's why I'm here.
00:05:26.29\00:05:28.06
You're here to fix me.
00:05:28.09\00:05:30.73
We hope to.
00:05:30.76\00:05:32.13
We're going to
try our absolute best.
00:05:32.16\00:05:33.76
I find sounds...
00:05:33.80\00:05:36.53
I find sounds annoying,
loud sounds and sharp sounds
00:05:36.56\00:05:40.37
annoying all day long anyway.
00:05:40.40\00:05:41.80
I mean, that's an
issue, and I hear everything.
00:05:41.84\00:05:44.84
I used to as a
kid, and this maybe
00:05:44.87\00:05:46.64
led to not
sleeping well at night.
00:05:46.68\00:05:48.84
I hear absolutely everything.
00:05:48.88\00:05:50.31
It's like what is the...
00:05:50.35\00:05:52.88
There's a gland that
serves as an organ that...
00:05:52.91\00:05:55.45
Or as a filter that
tells you what to hear
00:05:55.48\00:05:57.09
and what not to hear.
00:05:57.12\00:05:58.45
And I tend to hear more
than most people in a room.
00:05:58.49\00:06:00.29
Maybe it doesn't work.
00:06:00.32\00:06:01.66
It could be
that it doesn't work.
00:06:01.69\00:06:03.02
I used to look for my watch.
00:06:03.06\00:06:04.39
Back then when
watches ticked, you know,
00:06:04.43\00:06:05.76
you wound them
up and they ticked.
00:06:05.79\00:06:07.30
As a little boy, I
used to look for my watch
00:06:07.33\00:06:09.10
by standing in my
bedroom and closing my eyes
00:06:09.13\00:06:11.17
and listening for the ticking.
00:06:11.20\00:06:12.57
You have very good hearing.
00:06:12.60\00:06:13.94
I did, maybe it's
ruined now, but yeah.
00:06:13.97\00:06:16.20
So that is always
sensitive. So you're sensitive.
00:06:16.24\00:06:18.77
So we were talking
before about how you
00:06:18.81\00:06:21.84
function best cognitively
at night, late at night.
00:06:21.88\00:06:24.18
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:06:24.21\00:06:25.61
'Cause I'm the
sharpest in the morning
00:06:25.65\00:06:26.98
when I first wake up.
00:06:27.02\00:06:28.35
Yeah, you and my wife.
00:06:28.38\00:06:30.02
She outwits me, you know,
five to one in the morning
00:06:30.05\00:06:32.89
'cause I can't
formulate decent responses,
00:06:32.92\00:06:34.92
I actually trip up
on words in the morning.
00:06:34.96\00:06:37.23
Really? Yeah.
00:06:37.26\00:06:38.59
And I can't concentrate on...
00:06:38.63\00:06:39.96
If I have to prep for something,
00:06:40.00\00:06:41.56
first thing in the
morning is not a good idea.
00:06:41.60\00:06:43.87
So for example, if I've
got a presentation tomorrow,
00:06:43.90\00:06:45.90
I'll go over it at
11:00 PM at night out loud,
00:06:45.93\00:06:49.14
and then I've got
it forever, you know?
00:06:49.17\00:06:50.71
But first thing
in the morning...
00:06:50.74\00:06:52.07
You won't retain it
if you do in the morning.
00:06:52.11\00:06:53.44
No, not at all. How about that?
00:06:53.48\00:06:54.81
That's so odd. Not at all.
00:06:54.84\00:06:56.41
So Shawn, what does
powering through look like?
00:06:56.44\00:07:02.42
Well, you get up and
you go to work anyway,
00:07:02.45\00:07:04.29
you're exhausted.
00:07:04.32\00:07:06.12
Well, there are plenty of people
00:07:06.15\00:07:07.49
that end up
addicted to power drinks,
00:07:07.52\00:07:11.43
caffeine, all that jazz,
00:07:11.46\00:07:13.66
I'm not a not expecting
you to be in that category,
00:07:13.70\00:07:16.00
but I wanted to know what your
powering through looks like?
00:07:16.03\00:07:20.24
How do you do it?
00:07:20.27\00:07:21.77
You just do it.
00:07:21.80\00:07:23.51
I don't know how you explain it.
00:07:23.54\00:07:24.87
You know, I tend to go
for a walk in the mornings,
00:07:24.91\00:07:26.61
I try to do
between five and six miles
00:07:26.64\00:07:28.58
before I go to work,
and that gets you kind of...
00:07:28.61\00:07:31.71
And that'll raise
your epinephrine levels.
00:07:31.75\00:07:33.82
And get you outside,
00:07:33.85\00:07:35.18
you get a little
sunlight on your skin,
00:07:35.22\00:07:36.55
and your body
says, "Wake up time."
00:07:36.58\00:07:37.92
Helps you get circulation,
00:07:37.95\00:07:39.45
you're lymphic system is moving.
00:07:39.49\00:07:41.79
Yeah, yeah, I'll do
anywhere between 5 and 10.
00:07:41.82\00:07:44.06
So would you say that there
are some baseline anxieties
00:07:44.09\00:07:46.90
that are driving the
insomnia or is it not that deep?
00:07:46.93\00:07:49.93
Do we have to talk about that?
Yeah, it's why you're here.
00:07:49.96\00:07:52.77
You want us to fix you, right?
00:07:52.80\00:07:54.17
This will cost you about
$400 in a normal setting, so...
00:07:54.20\00:07:58.17
Oh, no, no, no,
we're way more expensive.
00:07:58.21\00:07:59.57
Yeah, exactly,
maybe five, six...
00:07:59.61\00:08:01.38
Four of you working on
me. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:08:01.41\00:08:04.38
I cannot.
00:08:04.41\00:08:05.75
I think one of the key issues is
00:08:05.78\00:08:08.78
I can't turn my
mind off at night.
00:08:08.82\00:08:10.35
Now, I look at Jean.
00:08:10.39\00:08:11.72
Jean and I've
been married 25 years.
00:08:11.75\00:08:13.29
And she can fall
asleep hanging in her seatbelt
00:08:13.32\00:08:16.22
on the drive home.
00:08:16.26\00:08:17.59
I don't know how she does it.
00:08:17.63\00:08:18.99
She goes to bed,
and two seconds later,
00:08:19.03\00:08:21.66
she's gone,
head hits the pillow.
00:08:21.70\00:08:24.57
It doesn't matter
what time I go to bed,
00:08:24.60\00:08:26.60
I need two or three hours in bed
00:08:26.63\00:08:28.04
for my mind to quiet down.
00:08:28.07\00:08:29.77
There's no question about it.
00:08:29.80\00:08:31.14
Two or three hours before you...
00:08:31.17\00:08:32.51
Oh, yeah, I lay in bed for
two or three hours before I...
00:08:32.54\00:08:34.61
You read while you're doing
that or you're just staring?
00:08:34.64\00:08:35.98
Yeah, I read, I take
notes or I listen to something.
00:08:36.01\00:08:39.88
I don't want to waste
the time. I want education.
00:08:39.91\00:08:41.78
I'm up... But you're in bed.
00:08:41.82\00:08:43.75
Yeah, absolutely.
00:08:43.79\00:08:45.12
Okay, so you're kind
of trying to shut down,
00:08:45.15\00:08:46.76
but it takes you
two to three hours
00:08:46.79\00:08:48.29
to shut down.
00:08:48.32\00:08:49.66
Oh, yeah, usually.
00:08:49.69\00:08:51.03
There's no going to bed
and falling asleep for me,
00:08:51.06\00:08:52.76
it's two to three hours.
00:08:52.79\00:08:54.30
So have you heard of the
concept of sleep hygiene?
00:08:54.33\00:08:56.90
I'm sure you have. Yeah, yeah.
00:08:56.93\00:08:58.57
So one of those
thoughts is whatever you do
00:08:58.60\00:09:01.74
for your evening
routine, if it takes two hours,
00:09:01.77\00:09:05.97
do all of that
outside of your bedroom.
00:09:06.01\00:09:09.08
Yeah, and I've gone that route,
00:09:09.11\00:09:10.68
and so what happens is I
do that two to three hours
00:09:10.71\00:09:12.58
of that outside the
bedroom, and I go to bed,
00:09:12.61\00:09:14.12
and then spend
two or three hours.
00:09:14.15\00:09:16.02
With the next phase. Okay. Yeah.
00:09:16.05\00:09:17.42
So you said, you
can't turn your mind off,
00:09:17.45\00:09:19.59
do you have a wild
guess about whether
00:09:19.62\00:09:21.32
there are some
unresolved anxieties,
00:09:21.36\00:09:23.66
maybe trauma that
occurred in your...
00:09:23.69\00:09:25.66
Is there anything
that's... No, I don't think so.
00:09:25.69\00:09:28.03
No, unless I'm hiding
or repressing something,
00:09:28.06\00:09:30.33
I don't think so. I
can't just turn the day off.
00:09:30.37\00:09:34.54
I need resolution on
everything that happens.
00:09:34.57\00:09:35.90
What kinds of
things do you think about
00:09:35.94\00:09:37.27
when you're lying
there trying to shut down?
00:09:37.31\00:09:39.74
Well, things
start occurring to you.
00:09:39.77\00:09:41.54
Oh, my goodness,
tomorrow morning at 9:00 AM,
00:09:41.58\00:09:43.95
you're giving this.
00:09:43.98\00:09:45.58
Are you sure
that it's ready yet?
00:09:45.61\00:09:46.95
You know what, you should
touch this up a little bit.
00:09:46.98\00:09:48.32
Okay, pop up, fix
that. And you touch it up.
00:09:48.35\00:09:50.72
And touch it up.
00:09:50.75\00:09:52.09
Oh, my goodness,
where are the receipts,
00:09:52.12\00:09:53.46
it's going to be
tax time in 90 days.
00:09:53.49\00:09:56.52
And you really have
this or that receipt.
00:09:56.56\00:09:58.26
I better go find it.
00:09:58.29\00:09:59.63
And then I go
find it, and then...
00:09:59.66\00:10:01.00
You get out of
bed and go find it?
00:10:01.03\00:10:02.36
Yeah, absolutely. Okay.
00:10:02.40\00:10:03.73
And you do that
for two or three hours,
00:10:03.77\00:10:05.13
and keep going back to
bed and try to shut down.
00:10:05.17\00:10:06.50
Yeah, that drives my wife nuts.
00:10:06.53\00:10:09.00
I can only imagine.
00:10:09.04\00:10:10.57
At one point, I actually
moved a desk in beside my bed
00:10:10.61\00:10:13.61
instead of a nightstand so
that I didn't have to leave
00:10:13.64\00:10:17.35
to get things done.
00:10:17.38\00:10:18.71
But Jean shut
that down really quick,
00:10:18.75\00:10:20.52
it didn't last very long.
00:10:20.55\00:10:21.88
A little desk with a
lamp, and I turn the light on,
00:10:21.92\00:10:23.89
and sit there,
and take care of it.
00:10:23.92\00:10:25.25
Does she stay awake
because you're awake
00:10:25.29\00:10:26.62
or is she able to sleep through
your not being able to sleep?
00:10:26.65\00:10:28.86
Before we had kids,
00:10:28.89\00:10:30.23
she never
noticed that we were...
00:10:30.26\00:10:31.99
And then once we
had kids, of course,
00:10:32.03\00:10:33.40
her sleep pattern changed.
00:10:33.43\00:10:34.80
Because she's trying
to listen for babies.
00:10:34.83\00:10:36.26
She's trying to
listen for the kids.
00:10:36.30\00:10:37.63
And she got a big
old baby there in a room
00:10:37.67\00:10:40.07
making a mess out of things.
00:10:40.10\00:10:42.60
Yeah, so she notices more now.
00:10:42.64\00:10:47.61
And I don't know how
much I can betray on that,
00:10:47.64\00:10:50.11
to the point
now where we were...
00:10:50.15\00:10:52.95
Jean, forgive me,
I'm about to do this,
00:10:52.98\00:10:54.65
I'm about to do this.
00:10:54.68\00:10:57.85
We're now Ricky and Lucy,
we got rid of the king bed,
00:10:57.89\00:11:00.12
and we put two twin
beds with a gap about
00:11:00.16\00:11:02.16
six inches between it
00:11:02.19\00:11:03.53
so that she doesn't
feel me kicking my legs.
00:11:03.56\00:11:05.39
I totally get that.
00:11:05.43\00:11:06.76
Yeah, and getting up, and...
00:11:06.80\00:11:08.40
I doesn't mean anything
about your love for each other,
00:11:08.43\00:11:10.33
it's just you can't sleep
in the same bed, it's okay.
00:11:10.37\00:11:13.37
We are giving you permission,
00:11:13.40\00:11:14.74
and we will not think
you're on the edge of divorce.
00:11:14.77\00:11:16.67
That's not such a bad idea.
00:11:16.71\00:11:18.04
When we first got
married, my husband was...
00:11:18.07\00:11:20.94
He's the
morning person, I'm not,
00:11:20.98\00:11:22.84
so I would want to be
able to stay away at night,
00:11:22.88\00:11:24.75
but he crashed.
00:11:24.78\00:11:26.11
The man turns
into a pumpkin at 9:00.
00:11:26.15\00:11:27.98
But he would bound out
of bed, like literally,
00:11:28.02\00:11:30.22
the whole bed leaped
when he got out of bed,
00:11:30.25\00:11:32.49
he'd wake up,
zip-zam and he'd jump,
00:11:32.52\00:11:34.72
and the whole bed would go...
00:11:34.76\00:11:36.09
And I would go...
00:11:36.12\00:11:37.46
You weren't ready to get up yet.
00:11:37.49\00:11:38.83
Let's not do that again.
00:11:38.86\00:11:40.76
So we...
00:11:40.80\00:11:42.16
And when she was
getting up and stuff,
00:11:42.20\00:11:44.27
I'd finally fall
asleep, and then a kid cries,
00:11:44.30\00:11:46.74
I'm up and she tensed
it 'cause she's got a...
00:11:46.77\00:11:48.94
She sleeps
through it? What's that?
00:11:48.97\00:11:50.41
When you had little children,
00:11:50.44\00:11:52.17
she would sleep
through the children crying?
00:11:52.21\00:11:53.58
No, never.
00:11:53.61\00:11:54.94
No, never, but if I
happen to fall asleep
00:11:54.98\00:11:56.31
and she got up
to address a need.
00:11:56.34\00:11:57.68
Then you'd be... Yeah.
00:11:57.71\00:11:59.05
Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:59.08\00:12:01.62
Where are you in terms of
your sleep pattern presently?
00:12:01.65\00:12:04.52
Are you at a place where you've
accepted this as your norm
00:12:04.55\00:12:07.36
and you are
content or are you still...
00:12:07.39\00:12:09.39
Resignation is probably
a better word than accept.
00:12:09.42\00:12:12.23
Here I am, I'm here on the show
00:12:12.26\00:12:13.80
because would I
love to sleep more?
00:12:13.83\00:12:16.03
Would I love to sleep normally?
00:12:16.06\00:12:18.57
Yeah, I really would.
00:12:18.60\00:12:20.64
So resignation is a good word.
00:12:20.67\00:12:22.00
So maybe it'll
never be different.
00:12:22.04\00:12:23.37
You know, I've done a little
asking around, my grandmother,
00:12:23.41\00:12:25.94
she's been gone for a long time,
00:12:25.97\00:12:27.38
grandma on the dad's
side, she never slept,
00:12:27.41\00:12:29.81
and so I don't know if
there's a genetic determination
00:12:29.84\00:12:32.48
or if we're just...
00:12:32.51\00:12:33.92
Worrying is a hard word for
it, but I can't turn it off.
00:12:33.95\00:12:37.65
I don't know if I'm anxious.
00:12:37.69\00:12:39.72
Maybe I'm anxious
enough to keep me awake,
00:12:39.75\00:12:41.62
but I can't just stop.
00:12:41.66\00:12:43.76
Okay, so put in a sentence
what is the baseline fear
00:12:43.79\00:12:47.26
going on there when
you're thinking about the taxes,
00:12:47.30\00:12:49.03
you said you're
thinking about the presentation,
00:12:49.06\00:12:50.53
what are you
thinking I will not be what?
00:12:50.57\00:12:52.43
What's it saying about?
Ready, I won't be ready.
00:12:52.47\00:12:54.14
I won't be ready.
00:12:54.17\00:12:55.50
What's so scary about that?
00:12:55.54\00:12:57.31
I like being ready.
00:12:57.34\00:12:58.67
You like being ready, but what
happens if you're not ready,
00:12:58.71\00:13:00.28
it's a lost what?
00:13:00.31\00:13:02.74
Fear of lost opportunity. Yeah.
00:13:02.78\00:13:04.65
Okay, that's real common with
anxiety is people are afraid.
00:13:04.68\00:13:08.32
I remember my
family going off to...
00:13:08.35\00:13:10.69
They're going to go out to
eat, I didn't want to come,
00:13:10.72\00:13:12.22
I was a
teenager, and I was like,
00:13:12.25\00:13:13.59
"Leave me alone, I don't
want to be with the family."
00:13:13.62\00:13:15.62
As they were
pulling out of the driveway,
00:13:15.66\00:13:17.59
that little
family station wagon,
00:13:17.63\00:13:18.96
I freaked out and start
chasing the car screaming,
00:13:18.99\00:13:21.30
"Come back, come back"
00:13:21.33\00:13:22.66
'cause of fear
of being left behind
00:13:22.70\00:13:24.47
or lost opportunity.
00:13:24.50\00:13:26.03
And I am finding
counseling people
00:13:26.07\00:13:27.54
that that's a common
baseline fear that people have.
00:13:27.57\00:13:30.11
I'm not going to make it.
00:13:30.14\00:13:31.57
Somehow something is
going to be left undone,
00:13:31.61\00:13:34.98
and I'm going to
miss out on something.
00:13:35.01\00:13:36.68
Undone bothers me.
00:13:36.71\00:13:38.35
Yeah, so talk to me
about how you as an evangelist
00:13:38.38\00:13:41.52
who are helping people
get ready for the ultimate
00:13:41.55\00:13:45.12
potential lost
opportunity, Jesus coming...
00:13:45.15\00:13:48.32
calming those people
down and still worried about
00:13:48.36\00:13:50.19
missing out yourself?
00:13:50.23\00:13:51.56
I have...
00:13:54.76\00:13:56.10
I guess I've
compartmentalize that.
00:13:56.13\00:13:57.83
I think that would be
the fair way to describe it
00:13:57.87\00:14:00.50
because I have zero anxiety
about my ultimate destiny,
00:14:00.54\00:14:05.27
I have none, zero.
00:14:05.31\00:14:07.08
I don't worry.
00:14:07.11\00:14:08.68
If I die tonight,
I'm safe with the Lord.
00:14:08.71\00:14:10.45
If Jesus comes today, I'm good.
00:14:10.48\00:14:12.11
And so I suppose
I've compartmentalized
00:14:12.15\00:14:13.82
those in my brain is
that's a different issue.
00:14:13.85\00:14:15.98
But couldn't they believe...
00:14:16.02\00:14:17.35
I mean, shouldn't
there be some bleed over
00:14:17.39\00:14:18.72
because isn't the
ultimate loss salvation?
00:14:18.75\00:14:21.59
Well, absolutely.
00:14:21.62\00:14:22.99
And what keeps you from
being afraid of losing that?
00:14:23.02\00:14:25.56
Being afraid, what keeps me from
00:14:29.06\00:14:30.40
being afraid of losing self...
00:14:30.43\00:14:31.77
Of losing that, how
do you get that security?
00:14:31.80\00:14:33.50
Is it in something
you've done or not done
00:14:33.54\00:14:35.10
or is it in the
character of God.
00:14:35.14\00:14:36.47
Because if he can
find that. Yeah, that...
00:14:36.50\00:14:39.71
I have never had a moment
of insecurity about salvation.
00:14:39.74\00:14:43.58
I've never had. But
on what basis, you know?
00:14:43.61\00:14:45.88
Basis is God's word.
God says, "This is it."
00:14:45.91\00:14:48.68
And so it doesn't matter
how I feel about it, right?
00:14:48.72\00:14:51.42
One of the biggest
breakthrough moments for me
00:14:51.45\00:14:53.29
was when somebody showed me.
00:14:53.32\00:14:55.86
I grew up around Christians,
00:14:55.89\00:14:57.43
and I grew up around
Christians that had all...
00:14:57.46\00:14:59.29
They love to
give these testimonies
00:14:59.33\00:15:00.93
where they had
these really profound
00:15:00.96\00:15:02.90
conversion experiences.
00:15:02.93\00:15:04.27
"Oh, you know,
00:15:04.30\00:15:05.63
I felt an electricity
going through my body."
00:15:05.67\00:15:07.00
And I think,
"Well, wait a minute,
00:15:07.04\00:15:08.37
I said the prayer
too, and I felt nothing,
00:15:08.40\00:15:09.84
and what in the world..."
00:15:09.87\00:15:12.07
And then somebody
showed me 1 John 5,
00:15:12.11\00:15:13.88
"These things I have written
unto you that you may know."
00:15:13.91\00:15:16.75
Not that you may feel.
00:15:16.78\00:15:18.11
So how I feel is
irrelevant to how God views me.
00:15:18.15\00:15:21.22
It's completely irrelevant.
00:15:21.25\00:15:23.05
Am I cognizant of the fact
00:15:23.08\00:15:24.55
that if I had to
stand before God's throne,
00:15:24.59\00:15:26.39
it would be a wilting experience
00:15:26.42\00:15:28.12
because I know who I am?
00:15:28.16\00:15:29.49
Sure, I know who I am.
00:15:29.52\00:15:31.19
Yeah, and I look in the mirror,
and I know that I'm not...
00:15:31.23\00:15:33.26
I know who I am.
00:15:33.29\00:15:34.63
I've seen the
real me peek through.
00:15:34.66\00:15:36.00
But you've also seen the
love and character of God.
00:15:36.03\00:15:37.83
Yeah, but the real Jesus
00:15:37.87\00:15:39.20
peeking through
has handled that,
00:15:39.23\00:15:40.57
that's done, right?
00:15:40.60\00:15:41.94
That's done.
00:15:41.97\00:15:43.30
I don't know that
it's so much a fear
00:15:43.34\00:15:44.67
of not being ready
for things, I am driven.
00:15:44.71\00:15:49.18
Maybe, maybe it's the
Dutch immigrant mentality.
00:15:49.21\00:15:54.02
If you're going to
work, you do it a 1000%,
00:15:54.05\00:15:57.02
you do your very best.
00:15:57.05\00:15:58.45
And my question is...
Type A, super driven...
00:15:58.49\00:16:00.56
Have you
ever... "Is it my best?"
00:16:00.59\00:16:01.92
Is the question that bothers
me more than am I going to lose.
00:16:01.96\00:16:03.93
Okay, have you ever
tried under-functioning
00:16:03.96\00:16:05.83
just to sort of help
yourself face your biggest fear.
00:16:05.86\00:16:08.06
I would never.
00:16:08.10\00:16:09.46
It's just an experiment.
00:16:09.50\00:16:11.13
Just as an experiment. Really?
00:16:11.17\00:16:12.50
I tell people like you...
00:16:12.53\00:16:13.87
Under-function.
00:16:13.90\00:16:15.24
leave some typos in your emails,
00:16:15.27\00:16:16.60
do something.
00:16:16.64\00:16:17.97
No, oh, are you kidding me?
00:16:18.01\00:16:19.34
We're going to... You
need to get past this.
00:16:19.37\00:16:20.74
Yeah, yeah.
00:16:20.78\00:16:22.11
You've got to be kidding.
00:16:22.14\00:16:23.48
How are you
going to get past this?
00:16:23.51\00:16:24.85
Oh, you've
touched something there.
00:16:24.88\00:16:26.21
There is no way.
00:16:26.25\00:16:27.58
You have a desire
for improvement, right?
00:16:27.62\00:16:28.95
You don't want to be in
this perpetual sleep state,
00:16:28.98\00:16:32.15
and so we're
suggesting an alternative,
00:16:32.19\00:16:34.82
that you can possibly...
00:16:34.86\00:16:36.49
You know that if
I keep something...
00:16:36.52\00:16:37.86
Maybe you are under-functioning
00:16:37.89\00:16:39.23
in the area of anxiety handling,
00:16:39.26\00:16:40.60
and maybe the way to
help yourself function better
00:16:40.63\00:16:44.00
is to
under-function in other areas.
00:16:44.03\00:16:46.13
If I find a tweet from last year
00:16:46.17\00:16:48.30
that I sent out
with a typo in it,
00:16:48.34\00:16:49.94
I will delete it and
retweet it from a year ago.
00:16:49.97\00:16:53.31
I purposely leave
typos in my tweets
00:16:53.34\00:16:56.75
to rebuke my inner Pharisee,
and my inner perfectionist.
00:16:56.78\00:17:01.02
Inner Pharisee?
00:17:01.05\00:17:02.38
Perfectionism is a
better way. Perfectionism, yeah.
00:17:02.42\00:17:03.99
Yeah, better word,
I do it on purpose.
00:17:04.02\00:17:06.42
I see the typo often
after I've tweeted, I'm like,
00:17:06.45\00:17:09.22
"Oh, I didn't see it before."
00:17:09.26\00:17:11.53
But I'll leave it there
for the purpose of helping me
00:17:11.56\00:17:14.93
not be a perfectionist.
00:17:14.96\00:17:16.30
I'm going to reveal something
00:17:16.33\00:17:17.67
that I've never
wanted to reveal.
00:17:17.70\00:17:19.03
And counselors love that, oh.
00:17:19.07\00:17:20.40
So watch you guys light
up, looking at you light up.
00:17:20.44\00:17:21.90
Oh, it's not that dark.
00:17:21.94\00:17:23.51
No, no, I studied
music formally for nine years
00:17:23.54\00:17:27.68
at the Toronto Conservatory.
00:17:27.71\00:17:29.71
And in that
environment what you do
00:17:29.74\00:17:32.41
is you take something on,
00:17:32.45\00:17:33.78
I'm not going to say what I did,
00:17:33.82\00:17:35.15
but you take something on.
00:17:35.18\00:17:36.52
You take on a Beethoven or a...
00:17:36.55\00:17:37.89
Because I don't
want to start performing.
00:17:37.92\00:17:39.95
Okay.
00:17:39.99\00:17:41.32
I haven't
touched it in 30 years.
00:17:41.36\00:17:42.82
I haven't
touched it in 30 years.
00:17:42.86\00:17:44.59
But you take
something, a Beethoven,
00:17:44.63\00:17:47.43
and you work on it for 6
months for one performance,
00:17:47.46\00:17:51.40
and that one performance...
00:17:51.43\00:17:52.77
Has to be
perfect. Has to be perfect.
00:17:52.80\00:17:54.57
And there was
something thrilling about that,
00:17:54.60\00:17:57.14
I've got to tell you,
the psychological payoff
00:17:57.17\00:18:01.68
for getting up
from the instrument,
00:18:01.71\00:18:03.91
and you nailed
it, and it's one time.
00:18:03.95\00:18:06.35
You go six months
for three minutes.
00:18:06.38\00:18:10.22
But, Shawn, why did you
not touch it for 30 years?
00:18:10.25\00:18:12.79
What happened
there? I got busy doing...
00:18:12.82\00:18:14.42
I became a Christian,
I became an evangelist.
00:18:14.46\00:18:16.36
But if someone is a musician,
they go back, and they play,
00:18:16.39\00:18:19.03
and they have...
00:18:19.06\00:18:20.40
They do it to relax, but
you can't do it to relax.
00:18:20.43\00:18:22.43
Play a different song.
00:18:22.46\00:18:23.80
Oh, I listen to people,
but I can hear their mistakes.
00:18:23.83\00:18:27.64
You got to play
a different song.
00:18:27.67\00:18:30.94
I have got to go back
to your desire for change.
00:18:30.97\00:18:33.14
Yeah.
00:18:33.17\00:18:34.51
And if that is
true, which I perceive,
00:18:34.54\00:18:37.38
we perceive that you truly want
to have more sleep in your life
00:18:37.41\00:18:41.28
to have more productivity,
00:18:41.32\00:18:43.69
what one thing are you
willing to do differently?
00:18:43.72\00:18:47.59
'Cause we can put
you on a plane right now
00:18:47.62\00:18:49.56
after the show to the
best facility we know.
00:18:49.59\00:18:52.63
I'm kidding.
00:18:52.66\00:18:54.10
I've been in a sleep
lab, I've been in a sleep lab,
00:18:54.13\00:18:56.36
and they just kind
of shook their heads.
00:18:56.40\00:18:58.73
One of the things we're talking
about is you not being perfect,
00:18:58.77\00:19:03.54
you're doing
something in your life
00:19:03.57\00:19:05.14
to minimize your
desire for perfection.
00:19:05.17\00:19:08.61
Is there one area that
you could challenge yourself?
00:19:08.64\00:19:13.98
When I derive joy from something
00:19:14.02\00:19:18.42
I know could have been better,
00:19:18.45\00:19:19.79
I have to admit, I enjoy
when we do something well.
00:19:19.82\00:19:23.06
But can't you change the
game to doing anxiety defeat
00:19:23.09\00:19:27.63
better than you're
doing by avoiding...
00:19:27.66\00:19:29.23
In order to get more sleep.
00:19:29.26\00:19:32.17
I suppose.
00:19:32.20\00:19:33.54
For example, my husband has
the same thing that you have,
00:19:33.57\00:19:37.24
this insatiable
drive for excellence,
00:19:37.27\00:19:40.14
it must be done well.
00:19:40.18\00:19:42.14
And especially
when it's something
00:19:42.18\00:19:43.51
that's done in public,
he has to get it done well.
00:19:43.55\00:19:46.15
And so I can predict, I know
if he's preaching the next day,
00:19:46.18\00:19:49.65
and he doesn't feel that
the sermon is quite right,
00:19:49.68\00:19:51.92
he's going to be wide
awake at 2:00 in the morning,
00:19:51.95\00:19:54.26
because he can't sleep.
00:19:54.29\00:19:55.62
Oh, sermons wake me up.
00:19:55.66\00:19:57.19
Because he has to
get it right before hand.
00:19:57.23\00:20:00.86
So we have two
different options.
00:20:00.90\00:20:03.10
Sometimes, it's a
matter of not putting it off
00:20:03.13\00:20:06.13
until the last minute,
getting everything ready,
00:20:06.17\00:20:09.20
but I find that
still is never fully enough
00:20:09.24\00:20:11.94
because he
still has that tension
00:20:11.97\00:20:14.41
that jangling of nerves
that makes him pop out of bed.
00:20:14.44\00:20:18.35
But what is helpful is
being able to rest and going,
00:20:18.38\00:20:22.78
"It's going to be
fine if it's not perfect.
00:20:22.82\00:20:25.99
It doesn't have to be excellent
00:20:26.02\00:20:27.86
in every way possible
for me to be a success."
00:20:27.89\00:20:30.93
In fact, sometimes, knowing
that he isn't really prepared
00:20:30.96\00:20:34.70
is the thing that helps
him to depend more on the Lord.
00:20:34.73\00:20:37.17
I was just going to say that.
00:20:37.20\00:20:38.57
The same kind of security
you have in your salvation.
00:20:38.60\00:20:41.80
You talked about that.
00:20:41.84\00:20:43.17
There's no question in
your mind, you know that.
00:20:43.20\00:20:45.84
Can you have that
same level of security
00:20:45.87\00:20:48.61
in that desire for perfection?
00:20:48.64\00:20:51.38
Can you minimize that
with the security in Christ?
00:20:51.41\00:20:54.35
That is good...
Because what often happens...
00:20:54.38\00:20:57.29
I don't know if that
would drive me more nuts.
00:20:57.32\00:20:59.62
No, I'm being honest,
I'm just being right upfront,
00:20:59.65\00:21:01.62
is that the
suggestion bothers me.
00:21:01.66\00:21:04.19
Why? What bothers you?
00:21:04.23\00:21:05.56
We can see
that. You're sweating.
00:21:05.59\00:21:06.93
One of my favorite stories...
00:21:06.96\00:21:08.30
I sweat all the time,
it's over 60 degrees in here,
00:21:08.33\00:21:09.66
I'm Canadian.
00:21:09.70\00:21:11.03
Why does that
suggestion bother you?
00:21:11.07\00:21:13.47
One of my favorite stories,
00:21:13.50\00:21:14.84
I don't know if it's
a Michelangelo story,
00:21:14.87\00:21:16.20
it's probably apocryphal.
00:21:16.24\00:21:17.57
It's just a sky
building a planter box,
00:21:17.61\00:21:18.97
and he's doing
the inside perfectly.
00:21:19.01\00:21:22.08
And some guy goes by
saying, "What's the point?
00:21:22.11\00:21:23.78
It's gonna be
filled with dirt anyway?"
00:21:23.81\00:21:26.48
And he says, "No
one's ever going to see it."
00:21:26.51\00:21:28.55
And he says, "Yeah, but..."
00:21:28.58\00:21:29.98
I will. I will.
00:21:30.02\00:21:32.92
Yeah.
00:21:32.95\00:21:34.29
You're your own worst tyrant.
00:21:34.32\00:21:35.66
Oh, probably yeah.
00:21:35.69\00:21:37.16
Sermons, there you go.
00:21:37.19\00:21:38.53
People struggle with this.
00:21:38.56\00:21:40.33
They say, "No, no, you
get up front all the time.
00:21:40.36\00:21:42.26
You speak all the time."
00:21:42.30\00:21:43.63
What they don't understand is
00:21:43.67\00:21:45.00
I will spend for
an hour long sermon,
00:21:45.03\00:21:46.94
I will on average spend
00:21:46.97\00:21:48.30
between 40 to 100 hours in prep,
00:21:48.34\00:21:50.87
40 to 100 hours because...
00:21:50.91\00:21:53.61
Which I'm thankful for,
00:21:53.64\00:21:54.98
and it makes it much
easier to listen to you preach.
00:21:55.01\00:21:57.05
When a pastor gets up and like,
00:21:57.08\00:21:58.45
"I don't know what I'm
going to talk about today."
00:21:58.48\00:21:59.81
It's always like,
"Okay, here we go."
00:21:59.85\00:22:01.18
No, and see that's not a
God like attitude anyway.
00:22:01.22\00:22:03.85
It's interesting
that you bring that up
00:22:03.89\00:22:05.22
because I've
actually been trying to coach
00:22:05.25\00:22:06.69
myself in those lines.
00:22:06.72\00:22:08.06
It's like, "Don't you trust God?
00:22:08.09\00:22:09.42
And don't you trust Him?
00:22:09.46\00:22:11.13
And don't you
remember the moments
00:22:11.16\00:22:12.49
where you got up you
threw it all away anyway
00:22:12.53\00:22:14.23
and went off the
cuff because God..."
00:22:14.26\00:22:15.60
But it's not a don't you
00:22:15.63\00:22:16.97
because it's very
clear that you do.
00:22:17.00\00:22:18.73
Yeah. So because
I trust God, I will.
00:22:18.77\00:22:22.37
Well, that's for sure.
00:22:22.40\00:22:23.74
She is saying take the things
that you have done so well
00:22:23.77\00:22:25.67
in one area and apply them
00:22:25.71\00:22:27.08
to this area
that you were saying,
00:22:27.11\00:22:28.44
which is brilliant I think.
00:22:28.48\00:22:29.81
Couldn't you do that?
00:22:29.84\00:22:31.18
Couldn't you say,
"Look, I have no fear"?
00:22:31.21\00:22:32.55
And couldn't you say, "I
will survive this experience
00:22:32.58\00:22:34.08
of even my own
tyranny not undoing me"?
00:22:34.12\00:22:37.15
I will let it go
00:22:37.19\00:22:38.52
and trust that the God I
trust will take care of it.
00:22:38.55\00:22:42.26
I will do my best.
00:22:42.29\00:22:43.63
And trust God to
do the rest for me.
00:22:43.66\00:22:45.83
Because fear is a liar.
00:22:45.86\00:22:47.76
No, I concur.
00:22:47.80\00:22:49.36
I concur that fear is a liar.
00:22:49.40\00:22:50.83
Well, here's another
way you could take that is,
00:22:50.87\00:22:52.80
what about people who can't
power through perfectionism
00:22:52.83\00:22:56.07
as well as you are,
00:22:56.10\00:22:57.57
and it really does
become their own doing,
00:22:57.61\00:22:59.61
people with OCD who end
up like wanting to suicide.
00:22:59.64\00:23:02.38
It happens.
00:23:02.41\00:23:03.75
So you would be
setting an example for them.
00:23:03.78\00:23:05.81
I went ahead and
published a tweet
00:23:05.85\00:23:07.82
and left it a typo in it.
00:23:07.85\00:23:09.45
And I know this
will help you too
00:23:09.48\00:23:10.82
because it helped me get,
00:23:10.85\00:23:12.19
you know, you're living
in a way you're saying...
00:23:12.22\00:23:13.56
Honestly. Challenging myself.
00:23:13.59\00:23:16.26
I'm fighting against
my desire but yet I am...
00:23:16.29\00:23:19.69
No, that OCD is interesting.
00:23:19.73\00:23:23.06
What would you define as OCD?
00:23:23.10\00:23:24.63
OCD is two characteristics.
00:23:24.67\00:23:26.43
It's you have... Obsession.
00:23:26.47\00:23:28.70
Obsessions where you
have invasive thoughts
00:23:28.74\00:23:31.07
that come into your mind about
a variety of things, germs,
00:23:31.11\00:23:33.74
turn the iron off,
sometimes religious things...
00:23:33.78\00:23:35.98
Oh, is the house locked?
00:23:36.01\00:23:37.35
Is the house locked? Yeah.
00:23:37.38\00:23:38.71
About three times a week I
drive back to double check.
00:23:38.75\00:23:40.42
And the compulsions are designed
00:23:40.45\00:23:43.92
to lower the anxiety
that you're experiencing
00:23:43.95\00:23:46.19
because of the
invasive thoughts.
00:23:46.22\00:23:47.72
So the obsession
comes, you're scared.
00:23:47.76\00:23:49.76
You do the
compulsion to try to...
00:23:49.79\00:23:51.13
but it only
temporarily lowers the anxiety
00:23:51.16\00:23:53.19
and then it comes
back with a vengeance.
00:23:53.23\00:23:54.56
So you end up doing it
over and over and over.
00:23:54.60\00:23:56.43
And the treatment for OCD
00:23:56.46\00:23:58.03
is called exposure
and response prevention.
00:23:58.07\00:24:00.20
So if a person
is afraid of germs,
00:24:00.24\00:24:02.30
they have to leave
the germs on the doorknob.
00:24:02.34\00:24:04.47
And they sit there and
self-observe and they go,
00:24:04.51\00:24:06.34
"You know, it bothers me."
00:24:06.37\00:24:08.18
They're being honest.
00:24:08.21\00:24:09.54
"But it's not killing me.
00:24:09.58\00:24:10.91
And I'm doing my deep breathing
and I'm getting through this.
00:24:10.95\00:24:12.38
And I don't have to
wash off that doorknob."
00:24:12.41\00:24:15.02
And it's called the
systematic desensitization,
00:24:15.05\00:24:17.15
it's another word for it.
00:24:17.19\00:24:18.52
But you could do
that for yourself maybe.
00:24:18.55\00:24:21.19
I think the critical issue...
00:24:21.22\00:24:23.32
You guys are
laughing but, you know...
00:24:23.36\00:24:25.06
We don't know how hard
it is. It suits for you.
00:24:25.09\00:24:26.43
Everything in this
picture is about motivation.
00:24:26.46\00:24:29.06
It's about the heart.
00:24:29.10\00:24:30.57
And I think looking at what's
motivating you to be so driven
00:24:30.60\00:24:35.50
could be useful.
00:24:35.54\00:24:36.87
It's a mix of things.
00:24:36.91\00:24:38.24
I think part of
what's motivating you
00:24:38.27\00:24:39.84
to desire
excellence is your desire
00:24:39.87\00:24:42.34
to glorify God with your
whole heart your whole life.
00:24:42.38\00:24:44.78
And that's
beautiful and that's powerful
00:24:44.81\00:24:46.45
and God wants that.
00:24:46.48\00:24:47.82
But maybe part of your
motivation is also fear.
00:24:47.85\00:24:50.95
Could be fear of what
other people think of you,
00:24:50.99\00:24:52.62
fear of what you'll
feel like about yourself
00:24:52.65\00:24:54.86
if you don't have
everything perfect.
00:24:54.89\00:24:56.86
And God wants to continually
purify our motivations
00:24:56.89\00:24:59.89
so that He moves us
toward being motivated
00:24:59.93\00:25:02.36
only by love and
not by the other things.
00:25:02.40\00:25:04.57
There might be
something to that.
00:25:04.60\00:25:06.70
'Cause you might be able
to help so many more people
00:25:06.74\00:25:11.74
that have the exact same fear
00:25:11.77\00:25:13.84
that you have
about their salvation.
00:25:13.88\00:25:18.75
By you working
through this issue...
00:25:18.78\00:25:21.62
You will maybe
able to communicate
00:25:21.65\00:25:23.35
a different
level of breakthrough
00:25:23.39\00:25:25.15
for so many people
00:25:25.19\00:25:26.52
because we work with the people
00:25:26.55\00:25:28.42
that are scared
out of their minds...
00:25:28.46\00:25:30.53
That they're not
going to make it.
00:25:30.56\00:25:31.89
They're not gonna be ready
00:25:31.93\00:25:33.26
because they've got all these
other issues in their life.
00:25:33.29\00:25:36.50
So, Shawn, we want to help
you so you can help the rest.
00:25:36.53\00:25:39.70
You have a big reach.
00:25:39.73\00:25:42.27
You know, when it comes
to the salvation question
00:25:42.30\00:25:45.74
and helping those,
00:25:45.77\00:25:47.11
I guess I do compartmentalize it
00:25:47.14\00:25:48.54
because a long time ago,
00:25:48.58\00:25:49.98
I gave up on the idea
that you can earn heaven
00:25:50.01\00:25:53.01
or I'm not perfect that's
the whole point of the story.
00:25:53.05\00:25:55.08
Right.
00:25:55.12\00:25:58.32
Nicole, you said
something a moment ago that...
00:25:58.35\00:26:01.02
We don't want you to
become perfectionistic
00:26:01.06\00:26:02.59
about having to
overcome your perfectionism.
00:26:02.62\00:26:05.16
Seriously. No,
seriously because you...
00:26:05.19\00:26:06.59
May just be it's
almost like a facial tick.
00:26:06.63\00:26:08.00
You just have this,
00:26:08.03\00:26:09.36
you know, it's a
thing that you do, you know?
00:26:09.40\00:26:10.80
I enjoy doing well at things.
00:26:10.83\00:26:13.10
Yeah. But that's...
00:26:13.13\00:26:14.77
Nothing is as mortifying.
00:26:14.80\00:26:16.14
That I wonder if that
payback also has a price.
00:26:16.17\00:26:18.37
I don't know.
00:26:18.41\00:26:20.54
I don't tend to lay away.
00:26:20.58\00:26:21.91
Like not sleeping
and things like that.
00:26:21.94\00:26:23.41
Yeah, not sleeping. Yeah.
00:26:23.45\00:26:24.88
Things aren't done is
really the thing that,
00:26:24.91\00:26:27.48
"Is that ready? Is it ready?"
00:26:27.52\00:26:28.85
Would you be
willing to experiment?
00:26:28.88\00:26:31.15
In other words, you'd
have to commit yourself
00:26:31.19\00:26:32.59
to a new way of doing things
00:26:32.62\00:26:33.96
but try doing
it a different way,
00:26:33.99\00:26:35.86
like try
underfunctioning sometimes
00:26:35.89\00:26:38.29
or try imperfection sometimes.
00:26:38.33\00:26:39.66
Yeah, I'd try that.
For a few days maybe.
00:26:39.69\00:26:42.33
That might be a blubbering
mess at the end of the day,
00:26:42.36\00:26:44.57
but yeah.
00:26:44.60\00:26:45.93
Initially. You know, I just...
00:26:45.97\00:26:47.57
We can provide that plane ride
to the support center though.
00:26:47.60\00:26:52.64
You said something, Nicole,
00:26:52.67\00:26:54.01
I want to circle
back to because...
00:26:54.04\00:26:55.38
and it was
something to do with...
00:26:55.41\00:26:58.38
it triggered a thought
00:26:58.41\00:26:59.75
because I do suffer from
that naked in class dream.
00:26:59.78\00:27:04.25
You get that one?
Yeah I had that dream.
00:27:04.29\00:27:06.15
I didn't know anybody else did.
00:27:06.19\00:27:07.79
Or...
00:27:07.82\00:27:09.16
Only us perfectionists can.
00:27:09.19\00:27:10.53
It's your final exam
and you can't find the room.
00:27:10.56\00:27:13.86
Yes. Yeah.
00:27:13.90\00:27:15.23
I don't show up
to class all semester
00:27:15.26\00:27:16.73
and find out I'm
halfway through the semester
00:27:16.77\00:27:18.67
and I still
haven't made it to a class.
00:27:18.70\00:27:20.04
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:20.07\00:27:21.40
You're not gonna graduate
00:27:21.44\00:27:22.77
because you didn't
show up to calculus class
00:27:22.80\00:27:24.14
you didn't even know
you were enrolled in.
00:27:24.17\00:27:25.51
Because you weren't ready.
00:27:25.54\00:27:26.88
Because I wasn't
ready. That's all true.
00:27:26.91\00:27:28.24
It's a similar thing.
00:27:28.28\00:27:30.15
This is so
grippingly interesting,
00:27:30.18\00:27:31.58
and we're gonna
have to carry it on
00:27:31.61\00:27:32.98
in the second
half of the program.
00:27:33.01\00:27:34.58
So, folks, please join us
00:27:34.62\00:27:36.52
because we're just
getting warmed up here.
00:27:36.55\00:27:38.79
We're digging
down into the depths
00:27:38.82\00:27:40.96
of the psyche of Shawn Buster
00:27:40.99\00:27:42.32
which is a privilege that...
00:27:42.36\00:27:43.79
It's a dark place.
00:27:43.83\00:27:45.16
Few people have in life.
00:27:45.19\00:27:47.36
And not only one or two or three
00:27:47.40\00:27:50.27
but four of us are
working on this project
00:27:50.30\00:27:52.53
that we hope to resolve.
00:27:52.57\00:27:53.90
Please join us for
the second half of the man
00:27:53.94\00:27:55.27
who almost never slept.
00:27:55.30\00:27:56.64