Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors
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for the second part
of our program entitled
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Prayer Partners
Become Life Partners.
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We've been hearing from
Jason and Natanya Vanderlaan.
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And they told us
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how they forged
their relationship
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in the context of
prayer how when they first met,
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they were working through a book
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that was kind of a 40
days of prayer kind of a book,
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and they decided
to do it together,
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and they ended up
falling in love in that context,
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which is just so cool.
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So we want to hear more
about the end of your courtship
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and then move
into what's working
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in your relationship
now that you've been married
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a total of an
amazing eight months.
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Yes.
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But I want to
introduce my panel here.
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I've got David Guerrero.
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He's a biblical
counselor from Wisconsin.
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And Shelly Wiggins
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who is a licensed
professional counselor
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from Michigan.
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And Jason and
Natanya Vanderlaan,
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and I want to ask you...
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I want to just
bring out the fact
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that when you guys met,
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and this is the thing I
love about your relationship,
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you were in the line of duty.
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Jason fought his way up
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to New Hampshire
for that seminar,
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and it was actually a training
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where I was helping people learn
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how to help people,
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it's called the
Abide Helper Training.
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And you came to that training
'cause you wanted to learn.
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You wanted to be equipped
to help people more effectively
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and so did Natanya,
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and you were both
focused on ministry,
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and in that
context, you met each other.
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So we were chatting about
how people sit in their bedroom
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and wait for God
to bring them someone.
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What they really need
to do is get out there,
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focus their life on
God, and serving others.
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And in doing that,
they will put themselves
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in, you know, social contexts
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where not only will
they meet more people period,
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they'll more
people that would be
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an appropriate partner.
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And here's the thing,
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it's cool that you
forged your relationship
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in the context of service
because it's really not healthy
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to be totally
self-focused in a twosome,
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and twosomes can
become very, very selfish.
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Yeah.
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So the fact that you
are outwardly focused
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even in the formation
processes of your relationship
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is really quite amazing.
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So let's talk about anything
more that we need to cover
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in terms of the courtship phase
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before we move
into your marriage.
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Talk to me about...
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Well, the
cliffhanger that was left
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on the first
part of the program,
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I'd like you to tell
the other part of it.
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So you're at the border
and you're in tears and...
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I think I was the one in tears.
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Oh, you're the...
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Probably both in
tears. She was in tears too.
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Did you think he was going
to pop the question right then?
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Oh, no, no.
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I didn't think he was
going to pop the question,
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but it was a space and
time where I think we both
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really felt the gravity
of what we'd been afforded.
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Was God giving you
permission to take that step?
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What was going on
in both of your minds?
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I think that we were both, like,
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so in love already at that point
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and so excited about each other.
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Yeah. That's so sweet.
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That just really is beautiful.
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And it was at
that kind of a moment,
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there was kind of
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some of the
reality was setting in
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that being
committed to loving each other
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meant a lot of big
changes in our lives.
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And so starting to
begin to wade through those
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and to face
those, and, you know,
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we realized through
prayer and talking to each other
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that we were
perfectly matched for each other
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that doesn't mean there
weren't a lot of differences.
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Yes.
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There are a lot of places
where we experienced conflict
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and had to work through
that and learn how to grow.
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Exactly.
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And that was of kind of
the beginning of facing reality
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in a good way.
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Did you ask first?
Did you ask her first?
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Yeah, I was
going to say can you...
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Did you ask someone
else? I'm just curious.
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Before I proposed? Yeah.
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So I think...
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It was an amazing
proposal. Thank you.
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We had talked
about getting married
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before I asked her parents.
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And the idea was not so much
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to ask permission
as to ask a blessing,
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but she's a human being
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and she has her own free choice.
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Amen.
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But we really value
and honor our parents
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and their perspective,
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especially their
spiritual directions.
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Yes.
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And so we want them to
be fully onboard as well.
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Totally. Amen.
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Love it. Yeah.
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Perfect.
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I called up her
parents on the phone.
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And I was holding on my phone
on FaceTime, and they asked me,
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"Can you put your
phone somewhere more stable,"
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'cause I was like.
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That was making them obnoxious.
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A little bit nervous.
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But yeah, it went well
and I got their blessing.
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Amen. And then what happened?
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Tell us about the
candles, just real brief.
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Okay.
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So I just planned her
a really lovely evening,
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a date, and after dinner,
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I had rented out
this artist's loft
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and I'd had my
brothers, two of my brothers,
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and my sister help me
set up 500 candles for this.
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Five hundred candles!
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There was mirrors
and stuff so the...
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The walls were
covered in mirrors and gold.
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It was more like
a thousand candles.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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But I think that all of this
is really important to mention
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because there was the space
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even in a very
short frame of time
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where he pursued me, you know?
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Amen.
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I told him when he first asked
if I was interested in dating
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that I only date local.
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I had made that up,
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but I didn't want
to do long distance.
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And so he was
driving six plus hours
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every other weekend, you know?
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And that kind of
commitment is important.
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I think it spoke
deeply to me personally.
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Do you think that the
guy does the sacrificing
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and not the woman
or is it both equally
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or is it a little more important
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that the man really
put himself out there
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'cause that's kind
of the school I'm from
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is that the guy
takes the bigger risks,
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I wouldn't say that
woman takes no risks?
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So I definitely wouldn't say
that the woman takes no risk.
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But you're like such a
feminist that I wonder about
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how you feel about that.
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I think that we should
both be willing to put in work
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and commitment, but
at the same time like,
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"You're asking for a
huge commitment of me.
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You're asking for my
heart and my whole life,
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and I think you should
have to work for it a little."
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Yeah. So...
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What I really
appreciated about her is like
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I knew she was, you know,
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very
self-sufficient and confident.
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And a lot of
times, the idea that
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the man takes
initiative means that the woman
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is more passive
and is incapable.
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Yeah.
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And I think what I really
liked and saw here is that
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she was fully capable...
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Fully capable.
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And she voluntarily left space
for me to make that first move,
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to make the first step.
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Even in conversations on
the phone, like at first,
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she was just like talk, talk,
talking, and then she was like,
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"I'm going to, like,
stop talking and, like,
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let you lead the conversation."
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And that was an example
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or even like
opening the car door,
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she's obviously very
capable of opening the car door,
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but she'll
pause and let me do it
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because it gives me
space to take that lead.
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To me, maybe I'm too old school,
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but it does something for
the development of the man
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to have to put himself
out there for the woman,
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and there's something
really, really symbolic
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about that
Christ loving the church
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in that self-sacrificial way.
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For sure.
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So the same self-sacrifice works
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in the context of
marriage, and let's talk
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'cause, I think, cumulatively,
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we have quite a few years
of marriage represented here.
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You guys have a whopping
eight months of marriage,
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but I think you're starting
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from what you've shared with me,
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I think you're
starting to discover
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what actually works and that's,
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you're calling it
radical transparency
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and work having
the hard conversations
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and working through
things instead of shelving them
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instead of
pretending they're not there.
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You want to talk
about that a little bit?
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Yeah, sure. Yeah.
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From the very
beginning and I do believe
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it was Holy Spirit inspired,
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I was so committed to
being very, almost painfully,
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honest sometimes with Jason.
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And as he's put
it several times,
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we'd already played the game,
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and so we weren't
looking to do any of that,
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we were just
offering ourselves as we were.
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And that's kind of evolved.
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Now that we're married,
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sometimes it means
being willing to sit down
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and have those
hard conversations
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when I don't agree with him,
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but I know that
it's going to mean
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a lot of talking, which is
not always my favorite thing,
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like I'm the more extroverted,
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but I like to get
things done quickly.
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I just say
everything that's on my mind
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and then I'm done.
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Yeah. Jason is more pensive.
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He's a writer and
a poet, he reflects.
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And sometimes, he'll
come back three days later
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and still want to talk
for an hour about something.
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That's difficult for
me, but creating that space
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has been really
beautiful in our relationship
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because it's a partnership.
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Can you give us one example
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of something
you've talked through?
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Yeah.
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I'd like to know a little
more of the nuts and bolts here.
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I know you're a little
different in your thinking
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and I think it's
important that people know
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they don't have to be a match,
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a complete
replica of one another.
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Maybe we should give
them a random topic off
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the top of our head
and just say, Chew on it."
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Feminism. Okay.
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That would make
me a little bit far.
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Or could you provide for
us what you mean by providing
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that space?
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What does it mean? Yeah.
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I think very similar
to what Jason mentioned
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in regards to like
being on the phone,
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I will talk a mile a minute.
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And I prayed about this
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because I wanted
there to be an exchange.
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And God brought my
mind to like phone calls,
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like conference calls,
I would have with work.
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And we would have someone
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in charge of
facilitating a call,
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that was their job.
00:10:01.50\00:10:02.83
And in doing that,
00:10:02.86\00:10:04.33
they had to create the
space for other people to talk.
00:10:04.37\00:10:06.84
Yeah.
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And God's like, "You
need to create the space."
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Okay.
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And so I'm
waiting for him to respond
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instead of just
running my mouth, right?
00:10:14.51\00:10:17.25
I'm asking questions
00:10:17.28\00:10:20.25
or forwarding him the
initiative and saying,
00:10:20.28\00:10:22.65
"Hey, you're the one
facilitating the call today,
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you take the lead."
00:10:26.12\00:10:27.89
And so we're
refocusing how we conversate.
00:10:27.92\00:10:32.99
And you know, we could...
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You're matching
each other's space.
00:10:34.40\00:10:35.83
Exactly. Exactly.
00:10:35.86\00:10:37.47
And this is something that
Jason brought to my attention.
00:10:37.50\00:10:40.67
But a lot of big
topics, we don't agree,
00:10:40.70\00:10:45.44
but we're not too
far away from each other.
00:10:45.47\00:10:47.94
And a lot of the
success of talking
00:10:47.98\00:10:50.05
through a difficult topic
is the way you talk about it.
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It's more about the
process, the content.
00:10:53.21\00:10:54.55
Exactly. Exactly.
00:10:54.58\00:10:55.92
You can get
through a lot of things
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in which you see
things differently.
00:10:57.65\00:10:59.42
If you could respect each other
00:10:59.45\00:11:00.86
and really listen to each other,
00:11:00.89\00:11:02.62
then you could work
through it effectively.
00:11:02.66\00:11:03.99
Exactly. Exactly.
00:11:04.03\00:11:05.36
So he has brought
me the realization
00:11:05.39\00:11:06.73
that our language is polarizing,
00:11:06.76\00:11:08.10
even in regards
to dating, right?
00:11:08.13\00:11:10.70
So sometimes, he'd say something
00:11:10.73\00:11:13.03
and I'd be like,
"Ding. Purity movement."
00:11:13.07\00:11:16.27
And my mind shuts down,
I'm not listening anymore.
00:11:16.30\00:11:19.21
And sometimes,
I would say things
00:11:19.24\00:11:20.61
and he'd be like, "Whoa."
00:11:20.64\00:11:21.98
Now can you clarify that
that was sort of the vestiges
00:11:22.01\00:11:24.41
of this experience you had
in a Protestant private school?
00:11:24.45\00:11:28.65
Yes.
00:11:28.68\00:11:30.02
When you felt there was
a lot of shame and guilt
00:11:30.05\00:11:31.39
put on you over
the issue of dating
00:11:31.42\00:11:33.59
and so you'll have
a traumatic response
00:11:33.62\00:11:35.32
when he'll talk and
sound something like that.
00:11:35.36\00:11:37.76
And all of a
sudden, I'm not listening.
00:11:37.79\00:11:39.33
Shutdown. Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:39.36\00:11:41.40
But we ultimately
believe similar things.
00:11:41.43\00:11:43.67
But are you able to then say,
00:11:43.70\00:11:45.13
"This is how I feel as a
result of you just saying,"
00:11:45.17\00:11:47.47
and look at the
emotional reaction itself
00:11:47.50\00:11:50.07
rather than personalizing it
and turning it into a debate?
00:11:50.11\00:11:51.44
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:51.47\00:11:53.14
And I think what's been really
great about that is, you know,
00:11:53.17\00:11:55.91
on so many different
things whether dating
00:11:55.94\00:11:57.98
or from different
backgrounds and race or culture
00:11:58.01\00:12:01.18
or politics,
any of these things,
00:12:01.22\00:12:03.49
like she was saying
00:12:03.52\00:12:04.85
there's so much
polarize in language.
00:12:04.89\00:12:06.45
And so it's
very different though
00:12:06.49\00:12:08.92
that if you're
online on Facebook
00:12:08.96\00:12:10.83
and you're just kind
of like type up something
00:12:10.86\00:12:12.66
and send it off to the person
who has the opposing view,
00:12:12.69\00:12:15.10
it's really easy to create
that picture of who that is
00:12:15.13\00:12:18.10
and what they hold their values
and make them very simple.
00:12:18.13\00:12:21.10
But when you're
sitting in the same room
00:12:21.14\00:12:23.74
with someone that
you love and respect
00:12:23.77\00:12:25.57
and think is really
smart and value who they are,
00:12:25.61\00:12:29.81
and they say something
that if you saw on the internet,
00:12:29.84\00:12:32.38
you would like
write off immediately,
00:12:32.41\00:12:35.28
I have to be like,
"Huh, she might have a point."
00:12:35.32\00:12:38.52
Yeah.
00:12:38.55\00:12:39.89
I value who this person
is and even more than that,
00:12:39.92\00:12:41.89
I'm committed to unity with her.
00:12:41.92\00:12:43.93
So you're hearing
the same thing from her
00:12:43.96\00:12:46.63
that you would have
heard on Facebook or Twitter
00:12:46.66\00:12:49.06
or something and you would
have written that person off.
00:12:49.10\00:12:51.63
You hear the same thing
from her, someone you love,
00:12:51.67\00:12:53.57
and you start to consider
it because you love her.
00:12:53.60\00:12:55.94
Yeah. Yeah.
00:12:55.97\00:12:57.31
And being committed to that
has really created space for us
00:12:57.34\00:13:00.34
to work past the
polarizing language
00:13:00.38\00:13:03.38
and then realize,
00:13:03.41\00:13:04.78
"Oh, we're actually really close
00:13:04.81\00:13:06.58
to the same idea in the end."
00:13:06.61\00:13:09.18
We just are using
such different language
00:13:09.22\00:13:11.55
because of our backgrounds.
00:13:11.59\00:13:12.92
When you're talking
about issues like that,
00:13:12.95\00:13:14.52
do you try to figure
out what the other person...
00:13:14.56\00:13:18.09
what their core values there
00:13:18.13\00:13:21.23
and then try to discern if maybe
00:13:21.26\00:13:22.96
you have a similar core value,
like if she's talking about...
00:13:23.00\00:13:26.70
she has a reaction to it,
00:13:26.74\00:13:28.14
something about
the purity movement,
00:13:28.17\00:13:30.04
her core value there is freedom.
00:13:30.07\00:13:32.27
And a lot of times, you
who maybe triggered her,
00:13:32.31\00:13:35.14
could say to
her, "I can see that
00:13:35.18\00:13:36.51
that's really the
hot button for you
00:13:36.54\00:13:38.55
because you
value freedom so much,"
00:13:38.58\00:13:40.72
will make her feel secure
and being understood by you
00:13:40.75\00:13:43.89
in such a way
that she's able to look
00:13:43.92\00:13:45.49
more objectively
at what you said.
00:13:45.52\00:13:47.49
Have you found that that's true?
00:13:47.52\00:13:48.86
I think so.
00:13:48.89\00:13:50.23
So I just thought of
a really great example.
00:13:50.26\00:13:52.46
This was several months ago.
00:13:52.49\00:13:53.86
But Jason posted
something on Facebook.
00:13:53.90\00:13:56.97
I don't really use
Facebook that much,
00:13:57.00\00:13:58.87
but it was an
article that he shared.
00:13:58.90\00:14:01.60
And I don't remember exactly
what was it in regards to.
00:14:01.64\00:14:05.01
Maybe gun control,
00:14:05.04\00:14:06.37
I don't remember,
something political.
00:14:06.41\00:14:07.74
Something political.
00:14:07.78\00:14:09.11
And all sparks
started firing. Off you?
00:14:09.14\00:14:12.51
If I had seen
somebody else post that,
00:14:12.55\00:14:14.42
I think I may
have unfriended them.
00:14:14.45\00:14:16.89
But my mind was a... Oh, wow.
00:14:16.92\00:14:18.65
"I don't want to
unfriend my husband."
00:14:18.69\00:14:21.02
All of a sudden, I
started thinking, "Why?
00:14:21.06\00:14:24.13
Why would he share
something like that?
00:14:24.16\00:14:26.76
What is he thinking?"
00:14:26.80\00:14:29.56
And so I sent him a text.
00:14:29.60\00:14:32.13
And we have...
00:14:32.17\00:14:33.50
Poor Jason, he's at work,
and he sees like this long text
00:14:33.54\00:14:37.47
'cause, you know,
this is not a conversation
00:14:37.51\00:14:38.84
to have publicly.
00:14:38.87\00:14:40.21
Yeah.
00:14:40.24\00:14:41.58
And he responded to
me very kindly, you know,
00:14:41.61\00:14:45.08
and we talked about it briefly.
00:14:45.11\00:14:46.75
He actually called me.
And then I went on doing life.
00:14:46.78\00:14:50.95
Later, a friend calls,
one of my best friends.
00:14:50.99\00:14:54.16
She lives in Paris.
00:14:54.19\00:14:55.52
And she says, "You know, I saw
this thing Jason just posted.
00:14:55.56\00:14:58.39
And it just...
00:14:58.43\00:14:59.83
I love the way you guys are."
00:14:59.86\00:15:02.20
And it was... He put a little...
00:15:02.23\00:15:04.20
some comment, "You
know, I spoke to my wife
00:15:04.23\00:15:06.50
and I actually think that
this could be very insensitive
00:15:06.53\00:15:10.11
to certain types of people,
00:15:10.14\00:15:12.04
and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah,
00:15:12.07\00:15:13.41
and I just want to say..."
00:15:13.44\00:15:14.78
And he pretty much
00:15:14.81\00:15:16.14
put a Cliff-Note
version of our resolution.
00:15:16.18\00:15:19.88
Wow! I didn't
even know about it.
00:15:19.91\00:15:21.25
I didn't ask for it.
00:15:21.28\00:15:22.62
And you know, something Gottman,
00:15:22.65\00:15:23.99
who's the doyen of marriage,
says that the problem of women
00:15:24.02\00:15:27.59
that men tend to
resist women's influence
00:15:27.62\00:15:30.66
and women tend
to, what we call, nag.
00:15:30.69\00:15:32.93
So women will criticize,
men will resist influence.
00:15:32.96\00:15:35.60
So the fact that you
accepted her influence
00:15:35.63\00:15:38.20
probably spoke volumes
00:15:38.23\00:15:40.24
because it's very
difficult sometimes for men
00:15:40.27\00:15:42.30
to accept
influence from their wives.
00:15:42.34\00:15:43.71
So the fact that you let her
influence you was really cool.
00:15:43.74\00:15:45.87
And it was a
testimony. Yeah. Yeah.
00:15:45.91\00:15:47.61
You know? Exactly.
00:15:47.64\00:15:48.98
God has used our
relationship and, oftentimes,
00:15:49.01\00:15:51.61
what we would call conflict
00:15:51.65\00:15:53.62
to testify to other
people in our resolution.
00:15:53.65\00:15:57.89
And I'm really
grateful for that space.
00:15:57.92\00:16:00.36
Wow.
00:16:00.39\00:16:01.76
Speaking of testimony,
00:16:01.79\00:16:03.46
there's going to be
people watching, young people,
00:16:03.49\00:16:06.59
and you have message
for young people of hope
00:16:06.63\00:16:09.66
and of a lot of things.
00:16:09.70\00:16:12.53
People may have
questions for you.
00:16:12.57\00:16:15.40
I understand you
have a website ministry.
00:16:15.44\00:16:18.04
Can you tell us a
little bit about that?
00:16:18.07\00:16:19.61
So we work with
my parents, actually,
00:16:19.64\00:16:22.81
who have a ministry
called Upward Movement Ministry.
00:16:22.84\00:16:26.61
We'll be posting our website...
00:16:26.65\00:16:28.58
Okay.
00:16:28.62\00:16:29.95
On their website. Yep.
00:16:29.98\00:16:31.55
We'll be posting...
00:16:31.59\00:16:32.92
well, the actual
address at the end of the show.
00:16:32.95\00:16:35.72
And also I know you mentioned
00:16:35.76\00:16:37.39
that you will be
receiving questions, so...
00:16:37.43\00:16:38.99
Yeah.
00:16:39.03\00:16:40.36
So A Multitude of
Counselors has website,
00:16:40.40\00:16:41.73
people contact us
all the time through...
00:16:41.76\00:16:43.10
there's a contact forum
and they can reach out to you
00:16:43.13\00:16:45.17
through us too.
00:16:45.20\00:16:46.53
Yeah. Yeah. So that's perfect.
00:16:46.57\00:16:47.90
But tell us about your ministry.
00:16:47.94\00:16:49.27
I want to know more about
what you're actually doing
00:16:49.30\00:16:50.71
with the love that God
has given the two of you
00:16:50.74\00:16:54.04
and how you're
turning it into ministry?
00:16:54.08\00:16:55.54
Yeah.
00:16:55.58\00:16:56.91
So we're actually doing
what we call a Love Tour.
00:16:56.95\00:16:58.81
Was that your idea or...
00:16:58.85\00:17:00.55
No, that was her
idea. That's so cool.
00:17:00.58\00:17:02.68
So you do a love
tour and you just get up
00:17:02.72\00:17:04.15
in front of people
and talk about love.
00:17:04.19\00:17:05.75
Yeah.
00:17:05.79\00:17:07.92
The idea was, you
know, we had our wedding,
00:17:07.96\00:17:10.46
and our wedding, we
wanted it to be ministry.
00:17:10.49\00:17:13.13
We wanted it to be a celebration
00:17:13.16\00:17:14.83
of what God was doing.
00:17:14.86\00:17:16.20
Yeah. And so we...
00:17:16.23\00:17:17.57
Our favors were the prayer book
00:17:17.60\00:17:19.80
that we had fallen in love with,
00:17:19.83\00:17:21.57
we gave those out, and
wanted to see other people
00:17:21.60\00:17:25.44
experience transformation too.
00:17:25.47\00:17:27.91
And so we knew though
that everyone couldn't come
00:17:27.94\00:17:30.28
to the wedding and
so we picked the cities
00:17:30.31\00:17:33.15
that had the biggest
populations of people we knew
00:17:33.18\00:17:35.52
and we started going to them
00:17:35.55\00:17:37.02
and sharing our
story and sharing testimony
00:17:37.05\00:17:40.26
and bringing people into prayer.
00:17:40.29\00:17:42.29
So you were able to
hit your friendship circle
00:17:42.32\00:17:44.49
and your family
circle with this appearance.
00:17:44.53\00:17:45.89
Yeah.
00:17:45.93\00:17:47.43
And, you know, we were going out
00:17:47.46\00:17:48.86
to these different churches
00:17:48.90\00:17:50.23
and finding that
lots of other people
00:17:50.27\00:17:51.60
were coming to
hear our story as well.
00:17:51.63\00:17:53.00
So you were like,
"Maybe it's not just about
00:17:53.03\00:17:55.10
family and friends,
00:17:55.14\00:17:56.47
maybe other people
want to hear from us."
00:17:56.50\00:17:57.84
Totally. Yeah. Yeah.
00:17:57.87\00:17:59.21
And a ministry
was born out of that.
00:17:59.24\00:18:00.58
Exactly. Yeah.
00:18:00.61\00:18:01.94
And so that's what
you're doing full time now?
00:18:01.98\00:18:03.31
I mean, what are you? Crazy?
00:18:03.35\00:18:06.18
We probably are crazy,
00:18:06.21\00:18:07.55
but we're not
doing it full time,
00:18:07.58\00:18:08.92
not yet, but
we're doing it a lot.
00:18:08.95\00:18:11.75
Where would you like to get to?
00:18:11.79\00:18:13.15
And what would you
like to say to people?
00:18:13.19\00:18:15.02
What's the core of
what you're trying to say?
00:18:15.06\00:18:16.93
Yeah.
00:18:16.96\00:18:18.29
And do you want
to get to the place
00:18:18.33\00:18:19.66
where this is all you're
doing like, this is your life?
00:18:19.69\00:18:21.56
Well, we definitely love to be
ministering together full time,
00:18:21.60\00:18:26.43
but I see the
Love Tour expanding.
00:18:26.47\00:18:30.51
We see time and
time again in our work
00:18:30.54\00:18:32.77
that we're creating a space
00:18:32.81\00:18:35.41
for people to come together
and find reconciliation.
00:18:35.44\00:18:39.51
And we say all the time
that it's not really about
00:18:39.55\00:18:41.92
a love story but it's
a power of prayer story,
00:18:41.95\00:18:45.95
it's a testament of
what God can do in your life
00:18:45.99\00:18:48.42
if you put Him to the test.
00:18:48.46\00:18:50.36
And we want to empower
people to move into those phases
00:18:50.39\00:18:53.60
and see God do His best work.
00:18:53.63\00:18:56.36
So you're trying to take
00:18:56.40\00:18:57.73
what's going on in your marriage
00:18:57.77\00:18:59.10
and how you've learned
how to listen or learning
00:18:59.13\00:19:01.00
how to listen to each other
and have the hard conversation
00:19:01.04\00:19:03.57
and have this
radical transparency,
00:19:03.61\00:19:06.71
and you're trying
to put that in a form
00:19:06.74\00:19:09.34
that people can apply
to other relationships.
00:19:09.38\00:19:11.21
Exactly. Exactly.
00:19:11.25\00:19:12.71
Yeah. All kinds
of relationships.
00:19:12.75\00:19:14.22
I can't really think
of anything that the world
00:19:14.25\00:19:16.18
and the church needs more
than what you're talking about.
00:19:16.22\00:19:18.79
Do you know what
I'm saying? Right.
00:19:18.82\00:19:20.16
Like I've never seen our
church so embroiled in conflict
00:19:20.19\00:19:24.46
as it is right now.
00:19:24.49\00:19:25.83
I'm not trying to
broadcast that, but it's a fact.
00:19:25.86\00:19:27.76
And I've never seen our
world so polarized and embroiled
00:19:27.80\00:19:31.27
in conflict in so many families.
00:19:31.30\00:19:33.50
And the fact that
you're bringing this message
00:19:33.54\00:19:35.07
of reconciliation
is very meaningful.
00:19:35.10\00:19:37.67
Well, if we think about it
00:19:37.71\00:19:39.21
from what we
believe in our message,
00:19:39.24\00:19:42.08
there were two
things that were pure
00:19:42.11\00:19:44.28
and holy and sanctified
00:19:44.31\00:19:45.91
before sin entered
the world, what was it?
00:19:45.95\00:19:49.15
Sabbath and marriage.
00:19:49.18\00:19:50.52
Sabbath and marriage. Yes.
00:19:50.55\00:19:52.02
So what are the two things
00:19:52.05\00:19:54.42
that Satan wants
to attack the most?
00:19:54.46\00:19:57.13
The exact same.
00:19:57.16\00:19:58.96
So as a gift to you
00:19:58.99\00:20:02.06
to protect your marriage
00:20:02.10\00:20:05.30
from that onslaught,
00:20:05.33\00:20:08.40
we will always
be available to you
00:20:08.44\00:20:10.57
should you get in
one of those spots
00:20:10.61\00:20:13.04
because they'll come.
00:20:13.07\00:20:14.41
Yeah.
00:20:14.44\00:20:15.78
You're new, eight
months, into this.
00:20:15.81\00:20:19.18
There's a lovely
book by Gary Thomas.
00:20:19.21\00:20:22.45
If I had it, I'd give it
to you as a gift right now
00:20:22.48\00:20:24.62
for a wedding gift.
00:20:24.65\00:20:26.25
It's called Sacred Marriage,
00:20:26.29\00:20:28.26
but the subtitle is
00:20:28.29\00:20:29.62
What If God Intended Marriage
00:20:29.66\00:20:32.09
to Make Us Holy
and Not Just Happy?
00:20:32.13\00:20:36.26
And it's a devotional
but it's deeply spiritual,
00:20:36.30\00:20:40.64
and you will be blessed
to read that book together.
00:20:40.67\00:20:43.77
Amen. Thank you.
00:20:43.81\00:20:45.14
'Cause we were talking about
00:20:45.17\00:20:46.51
the chemicals of falling in love
00:20:46.54\00:20:47.88
and how they last for
roughly a year and a half
00:20:47.91\00:20:50.41
and then they start to taper off
00:20:50.45\00:20:52.15
and then comes
the real difficult,
00:20:52.18\00:20:54.35
sometimes, period...
00:20:54.38\00:20:55.72
Yeah, your true characters,
00:20:55.75\00:20:57.09
you're no longer
in your best behavior.
00:20:57.12\00:20:58.75
And there's
neuroscience going on
00:20:58.79\00:21:00.96
where you don't
have the dopamine levels
00:21:00.99\00:21:03.02
and you're
dealing with more low mood
00:21:03.06\00:21:05.26
and that type of thing.
00:21:05.29\00:21:06.73
And we're looking at
you having been married
00:21:06.76\00:21:08.46
eight months and thinking...
00:21:08.50\00:21:09.83
I'm not thinking
though, you know,
00:21:09.86\00:21:11.77
a disaster ahead
because I see that
00:21:11.80\00:21:13.37
you're employing principles
that are going to get you
00:21:13.40\00:21:15.64
past that threshold
where the relationship
00:21:15.67\00:21:17.87
isn't so naturally
gratifying anymore.
00:21:17.91\00:21:20.34
And don't you think
that that's the foundation
00:21:20.38\00:21:22.81
of what helps people stay
married and stay intimate?
00:21:22.84\00:21:26.15
You're not in
the lovey-dovey fog,
00:21:26.18\00:21:27.68
you're in reality,
00:21:27.72\00:21:29.05
you know that some of
these things will occur
00:21:29.08\00:21:31.52
'cause we've already told you.
00:21:31.55\00:21:32.89
Yeah.
00:21:32.92\00:21:34.26
And I'm sure other
people have told you too.
00:21:34.29\00:21:35.62
Yeah, 'cause
they are wise people
00:21:35.66\00:21:36.99
and they've observed others.
00:21:37.03\00:21:38.36
Oh, you've
studied the Word of God.
00:21:38.39\00:21:39.73
Amen. Amen.
00:21:39.76\00:21:41.10
You know, I think
that was stand out for me
00:21:41.13\00:21:42.46
is how you have
built a relationship.
00:21:42.50\00:21:44.17
And you have built
your relationship on prayer
00:21:44.20\00:21:47.27
and on the Word of God and on...
00:21:47.30\00:21:50.44
Oh, the fruit of the Spirit...
00:21:50.47\00:21:51.81
when you look at the
fruit of the spirit, you know,
00:21:51.84\00:21:54.08
it's love, joy,
peace, longsuffering,
00:21:54.11\00:21:57.28
so on and so forth,
I see that, at least,
00:21:57.31\00:21:59.55
today and I'm hearing it that
that exudes out of your lives
00:21:59.58\00:22:03.22
and it's because you've been
00:22:03.25\00:22:04.59
in contact with the Holy Spirit.
00:22:04.62\00:22:05.95
Thank you.
00:22:05.99\00:22:07.32
And if every
marriage or every courtship
00:22:07.36\00:22:10.09
or dating was built
on those principles,
00:22:10.13\00:22:12.73
then we would see
00:22:12.76\00:22:14.10
much more
healthier marriages, so...
00:22:14.13\00:22:15.46
And I love that your
natural compatibility,
00:22:15.50\00:22:20.70
the things that you
enjoy doing are very similar
00:22:20.74\00:22:25.04
because we can attest
as having been married
00:22:25.07\00:22:28.24
a bit longer than
the two of you that
00:22:28.28\00:22:31.18
when push comes to
shove, if you don't enjoy
00:22:31.21\00:22:34.22
doing the simple things
like the dishes, the laundry,
00:22:34.25\00:22:37.89
the everyday stuff together
00:22:37.92\00:22:40.86
'cause there's a
lot of everyday stuff,
00:22:40.89\00:22:43.06
but if you can
enjoy that together,
00:22:43.09\00:22:46.23
it'll hold you together.
00:22:46.26\00:22:47.60
Amen.
00:22:47.63\00:22:48.96
You know, I
think it's really good
00:22:49.00\00:22:50.33
that you fell in love.
00:22:50.37\00:22:51.70
I'm not opposed to the
falling-in-love experience.
00:22:51.73\00:22:53.40
I think God gives us
the capacity for that,
00:22:53.44\00:22:56.14
like just the dizzying
almost, brain chemical response
00:22:56.17\00:23:01.84
of that initial bonding,
and there's some research
00:23:01.88\00:23:04.28
to the effect that the intensity
00:23:04.31\00:23:05.81
of your relationship
in that initial phase,
00:23:05.85\00:23:08.18
and, you know, dare I say it,
00:23:08.22\00:23:10.19
the sexual
involvement in the initial phase
00:23:10.22\00:23:13.02
creates a neurological
basis for long-term bonding,
00:23:13.05\00:23:15.69
so this is God, you
know, the master, orchestrator,
00:23:15.72\00:23:19.06
brain chemicals working
00:23:19.09\00:23:20.83
by creating this
falling-in-love experience.
00:23:20.86\00:23:23.67
But eventually that
expense itself, and often,
00:23:23.70\00:23:27.67
in counseling, I will work
with couples that feel like...
00:23:27.70\00:23:30.77
because the
feelings have dissipated,
00:23:30.81\00:23:34.11
they're at the end of
love and their relationship
00:23:34.14\00:23:36.54
is no longer viable.
00:23:36.58\00:23:37.91
And I say, no, praise God.
00:23:37.95\00:23:39.65
You've run out of gas
00:23:39.68\00:23:41.02
in the middle of
the Mojave Desert
00:23:41.05\00:23:42.98
so that God can come
along and give you new gas,
00:23:43.02\00:23:45.05
and that new
gas is called agape.
00:23:45.09\00:23:47.42
Amen. It's His divine love.
00:23:47.46\00:23:49.12
And what I find...
Always. That's right.
00:23:49.16\00:23:51.03
If people will
continue, like Ellen White says,
00:23:51.06\00:23:54.03
"Keep exercising
the early attentions,
00:23:54.06\00:23:57.13
keep bestowing those early..."
00:23:57.17\00:23:58.50
So in the courtship
phase, you want to be attentive,
00:23:58.53\00:24:01.24
you want to drive all the
way to Vermont, you want to,
00:24:01.27\00:24:03.77
you know, driving
to Canada for a day,
00:24:03.81\00:24:05.57
and then crying on the way,
00:24:05.61\00:24:06.94
all that stuff was
very natural to you
00:24:06.98\00:24:08.98
and the 5,000
candles or whatever it was,
00:24:09.01\00:24:11.21
it's all very natural.
00:24:11.25\00:24:12.98
But there's going to
come a time when you're not
00:24:13.01\00:24:15.05
as motivated by
your brain chemicals
00:24:15.08\00:24:16.65
to do those things, but
if you continue to do them,
00:24:16.69\00:24:18.62
what you'll do is you will
awaken those brain chemicals
00:24:18.65\00:24:21.32
because you've
created precedent for it.
00:24:21.36\00:24:22.99
So God gives you a
freebie in the beginning.
00:24:23.02\00:24:25.13
But He also gives...
00:24:25.16\00:24:26.49
It's not like
when you get past that,
00:24:26.53\00:24:28.33
it's no love, joy,
and bonding after that,
00:24:28.36\00:24:31.80
it's those
chemicals are still there,
00:24:31.83\00:24:33.74
especially
attraction is still there,
00:24:33.77\00:24:35.44
you have to
choose to act, you know,
00:24:35.47\00:24:39.04
really a benevolent
way toward your spouse,
00:24:39.07\00:24:41.84
and you will bring about
those chemical reactions.
00:24:41.88\00:24:44.15
Yeah.
00:24:44.18\00:24:45.51
And I really believe
it's only the Holy Spirit
00:24:45.55\00:24:47.42
that gives us
the capacity to move
00:24:47.45\00:24:49.48
beyond that
doing space to being.
00:24:49.52\00:24:52.75
And, you know,
just two weeks ago,
00:24:52.79\00:24:55.19
we were in Morocco,
and our first night,
00:24:55.22\00:24:58.89
we're coming
back from a restaurant
00:24:58.93\00:25:01.06
and Jason's using
Google Maps on his phone
00:25:01.10\00:25:03.40
and two guys on
a motorbike came by
00:25:03.43\00:25:05.90
and swiped it
right out of his hand.
00:25:05.93\00:25:08.10
And both of us... The phone?
00:25:08.14\00:25:09.90
The phone, they took his phone.
00:25:09.94\00:25:11.57
And we both
started chasing them,
00:25:11.61\00:25:13.98
obviously we
didn't make it very far.
00:25:14.01\00:25:16.21
But we stopped in this circle
and I looked at Jason, I said,
00:25:16.24\00:25:19.91
"We need to pray."
00:25:19.95\00:25:21.42
Did you have a password
on your phone by the way?
00:25:21.45\00:25:23.02
Yeah, I did.
00:25:23.05\00:25:24.39
And I just started praying,
00:25:24.42\00:25:26.72
and it was my first
gut reaction, you know?
00:25:26.76\00:25:31.53
Amen.
00:25:31.56\00:25:32.89
And this is something
that God is building in us.
00:25:32.93\00:25:35.03
And Jason told
me after, "You know,
00:25:35.06\00:25:37.30
I wasn't feeling
what you were feeling
00:25:37.33\00:25:39.30
in that moment."
00:25:39.33\00:25:40.67
But he chose to trust,
trust my instinct to pray,
00:25:40.70\00:25:45.91
and he entered
into that space with me
00:25:45.94\00:25:48.08
and we both
chose to trust in God.
00:25:48.11\00:25:50.85
Now five minutes later,
00:25:50.88\00:25:52.75
we still didn't know what to do.
00:25:52.78\00:25:54.92
And so I felt inspired to
pray again and I told Jason,
00:25:54.95\00:25:58.85
"We ask God to order our steps.
00:25:58.89\00:26:01.06
This is exactly
what we asked for,
00:26:01.09\00:26:03.32
so He's going to work something
beautiful out of this."
00:26:03.36\00:26:06.36
And we prayed again.
00:26:06.39\00:26:07.73
And not two
seconds after I said amen,
00:26:07.76\00:26:10.77
a young man came
towards, he said,
00:26:10.80\00:26:13.07
"I saw everything that happened.
00:26:13.10\00:26:15.00
Someone else stole
00:26:15.04\00:26:16.71
very similar
phone earlier today.
00:26:16.74\00:26:19.27
There are cameras.
00:26:19.31\00:26:21.14
We're going to get
this taken care of."
00:26:21.18\00:26:22.84
And he took us
through this maze of police
00:26:22.88\00:26:25.91
and tourist
systems to file a report
00:26:25.95\00:26:29.05
and go through all these steps
00:26:29.08\00:26:30.82
that we wouldn't
have been able to alone.
00:26:30.85\00:26:34.82
And, you know,
it was so powerful,
00:26:34.86\00:26:36.56
I'd love to tell you
that we have the phone,
00:26:36.59\00:26:38.86
we do not.
00:26:38.89\00:26:40.23
But through that experience...
00:26:40.26\00:26:42.10
You got something
greater here. That's right.
00:26:42.13\00:26:43.47
We have something greater.
00:26:43.50\00:26:44.90
And I was able to realize,
00:26:44.93\00:26:46.33
God has instilled in
us a practice of being.
00:26:46.37\00:26:51.67
And here's the
thing, it's like that trial
00:26:51.71\00:26:53.71
was imposed from the
outside, but you're going to do
00:26:53.74\00:26:56.28
the same thing
when you have trials
00:26:56.31\00:26:58.78
that involve the
two of you together.
00:26:58.81\00:27:00.85
You're going to
pray through them
00:27:00.88\00:27:02.72
and you're going
to get through them
00:27:02.75\00:27:04.09
because God will
sustain you through them
00:27:04.12\00:27:05.69
and you're going
to have bonded because
00:27:05.72\00:27:07.36
"Look, we got through that,
we can get through anything."
00:27:07.39\00:27:08.96
Amen. Yeah.
00:27:08.99\00:27:10.36
As an example of, you know,
00:27:10.39\00:27:11.79
us learning to trust each other,
00:27:11.83\00:27:13.46
but beyond that, like,
00:27:13.50\00:27:14.83
we have this
deeper trust in God,
00:27:14.86\00:27:16.20
in His presence.
00:27:16.23\00:27:17.57
Amen. Amen.
00:27:17.60\00:27:18.93
The Bible says that a
wise man builds his house
00:27:18.97\00:27:20.30
upon rock and you're
building your house upon Christ
00:27:20.34\00:27:23.10
because you've built your lives,
00:27:23.14\00:27:24.67
your building
your lives on prayer.
00:27:24.71\00:27:26.68
Praise the Lord.
00:27:26.71\00:27:28.11
Well, we've
heard an amazing story
00:27:28.14\00:27:29.98
of how prayer
partners became life partners,
00:27:30.01\00:27:32.51
we've heard about the courtship,
00:27:32.55\00:27:34.08
dating phase of their life,
00:27:34.12\00:27:35.45
and how God built
their romance from that.
00:27:35.48\00:27:37.95
But we've also gotten
into some of the nuts and bolts
00:27:37.99\00:27:40.12
of what works in a context
of a long-term relationship,
00:27:40.16\00:27:43.79
and we hope you've been
encouraged by these things.
00:27:43.83\00:27:45.86
Listen, if
you've run out of steam
00:27:45.89\00:27:48.03
in your
relationship and you're married,
00:27:48.06\00:27:50.07
it's not the end of
love, it's just the beginning.
00:27:50.10\00:27:53.13
God can bless
you moving forward,
00:27:53.17\00:27:55.27
let His Holy Spirit lead
and His Word be your guide.
00:27:55.30\00:27:59.37
Amen.
00:27:59.41\00:28:00.74