Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
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We're so thankful
that you've joined us today
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for our program.
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It's going to be
an awesome program
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because we're going to
talk about a relevant topic,
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and that is
Christian dating, courtship,
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finding a life partner,
and all those kind of things.
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So I want to start with
a little bit of the history
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of Christian dating.
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Historically,
dating really didn't exist.
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Marriage was a
very functional thing.
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And you know that historically
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many marriages were
determined by the parents,
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the parents
matched the married couple.
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But there are
still some cultures
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in which that is active today.
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But marriage was always
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historically a
very functional thing,
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even in early Western
culture, very functional,
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particularly before
the Industrial Revolution.
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So let me give you an example.
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There was a man
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who put an ad in a
paper to try to find a wife,
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and this is what he said.
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This is in 1800s,
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and this is what
he said, he said...
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This man was from Arkansas,
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so let me try to sound like him.
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He said, " Any
gal what got a bed,
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calico dress,
coffee-pot and skillet,
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knows how to cut our britches,
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can make a hunting shift,
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and knows how to
take care of children
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can have my services
till death parts both of us."
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So that man really didn't care
about the relationship so much
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as he cared about
how that woman functioned
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because it was
all about survival.
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Well, the Industrial
Revolution came along,
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and it wasn't just
about survival anymore,
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there was more leisure
time, there was more money,
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more prosperity,
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people could actually
think about relationships.
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So it was in that window of time
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that courtship
really started to develop.
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And the way it looked
initially was this that
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the girl would
sit in her parlor,
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in her home with her family,
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in other parts of the home,
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and the boy would come
and visit with the girl
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in the parlor.
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This way, the girl was
protected by her family,
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they were within earshot,
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and the power
balance was with the girl.
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But eventually,
the poor girls thought,
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"Well, I want to
date or court too,"
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and so they started
to meet in public places.
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And often, it was a
restaurant or somewhere
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where there was something
that needed to be purchased.
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And typically, the
male was purchasing.
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So the power
balance shifted to the male,
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and in addition,
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the parents really didn't have
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as much to do
with that relationship.
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Then beyond that,
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dating, as it came to be called,
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started to be about the
thrill of the relationship,
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very focused in
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on the romantic thrill of dating
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and less
functional, and less serious,
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less intentional.
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Christian dating pretty
much followed that pattern
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until the purity movement
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and until a
certain book came along.
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In about 1997, young
man named Joshua Harris,
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21 years old, wrote the
book, I Kissed Dating Goodbye.
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And in that book,
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he recommended
returning to the courtship model
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where the parents would have
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much authority
over the relationship,
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the couple would
restrain themselves
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from any kind of
physical or emotional enmeshment
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during that courtship process,
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and they were very
much focused on ascertaining
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whether that person was a
suitable marriage partner,
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so it was very serious.
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Well, that went on
for about 20 years.
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And then 20 years after
the courtship revolution,
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you might call it,
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the author of
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I Kissed Dating
Goodbye kissed the book,
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I Kissed Dating
Goodbye, goodbye.
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And I want us to hear from him
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because he really had a
process of thinking about
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what he put across in that book
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and what might
have been some things
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that needed to be corrected.
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He said, in an article,
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"I'm just beginning the process
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of revisiting the
message and impact of my book.
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Over the years,
I've heard from people
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who have been
helped by the book,
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but I've also heard a
growing number of voices
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of people who
have been hurt by it.
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I want to
understand this better.
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I'm starting by listening."
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Then in a TED Talks, he said,
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"I gave the impression that
there was really one formula
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you could follow,
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and that if you follow that,
you would be happily married,
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God will bless you,
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and you have a great
sex life and marriage.
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Probably, one of the
things that I regret the most
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was that there was a
lot of fear inside me
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and that fear
transferred into my writing.
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Fear of messing up,
fear of getting heartbroken,
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fear of hurting
someone else, fear of sex."
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When I read
that, I realized that
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he was
identifying some of the things
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that I had experienced as
flaws in the courtship model
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or maybe limitations
in the courtship model.
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But I want to say this
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that I think the courtship model
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was an improvement
on the dating model.
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And I, myself,
went through dating
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according to
the world's formula,
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and then went through courtship
according to this formula,
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and I married my husband
after that kind of courtship,
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and we're still married
about a million years later.
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So something was
working that I would say
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it's more what we
did after the marriage,
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which is, I
think, true for everyone.
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But on the other hand,
there are, perhaps, limitations
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or things that
needed to be corrected,
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but let's not
start from scratch here.
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There are some
really good things
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about the courtship model.
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I think the one thing
for me that was missing was
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there was no opportunity to
get to know the opposite sex
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before a very serious
relationship such as courtship.
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And so when I
counsel young people, I say,
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"Start out with
friendship dating
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where you're
just kind of enjoying,
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getting to know
different people,
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in public places,
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not in these very
private situations
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where you might be tempted,
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but do get to know
a variety of people."
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I was stumbled on an article
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that said
basically the same thing
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by a man named Thomas Umstattd.
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And he said that
he was originally
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a courtship enthusiast,
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but his grandmother
told him, "It's silly, "
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and he sat down with her
to find out why and she said,
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"In my generation,
there was one rule,
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you couldn't go out
with the same person
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twice in a row
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unless you were ready
for a serious relationship
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because going more than
once with the same person
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was going steady."
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And I thought that was why
is that it's good to go out,
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get to know
people, and get out there,
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and yet we have to
have some restraints.
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So our guests today are
Jason and Natanya Vanderlaan.
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They're very special to me.
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They've been very recently,
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you know, discovered each other,
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met each other.
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I don't know if you
call it courting or dating,
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whatever you did, but
then they ended up married.
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Yes. So something worked out.
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And they're going
to tell us that story.
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And it's so exciting
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because they met
at one of my seminars,
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so I get to take some credit.
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Good.
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But I want to
introduce my panel today.
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I've got David
Guerrero, biblical counselor,
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and Dr. Nivischi
Edwards, professional counselor
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and university professor.
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And again, David...
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I'm sorry, David.
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Jason and Natanya Vanderlaan...
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Did I say it right? Yeah.
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Vanderlaan.
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And you're from where?
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We live in
Burlington, Vermont now.
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Burlington, Vermont.
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So let's start with your story.
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Where did you guys meet?
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Well, I just told them
where you met but, you know?
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Take us from the beginning
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and let's weave
some of these ideas in.
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Totally.
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And I wanted to start
with this one thought.
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There is not any
one particular formula
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that works perfectly
for each and every person.
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I think that's
what I've come to.
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I think biblical principles
are always appropriate,
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they're always in place,
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restraints on human
passion are always necessary.
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But being filled
with the Holy Spirit,
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He may lead one
person in one direction
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and one in a
little bit different one.
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Let's not be formulaic
about something as really...
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Dynamic. As relationships.
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Good word. Amen.
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Yes. Yeah.
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It's just so beautiful
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that we didn't
plan this this way.
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But your history
mirrors so very much.
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Our experience,
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you know, Jason and I
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were coming from two
very, very different spaces.
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So tell us about it.
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What was your space like, Jason?
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So I definitely came from more
of the purity movement mindset,
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and I related to a lot of that,
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and took, not exactly
the courtship approach,
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but a lot of the
principles from it.
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What about it appealed to you?
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I really appreciated that
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it caused me to
look at my actions
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in the individual
counters that I had,
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and I realized that
they had longer impacts
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than just in that very moment.
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And where did you
get that model from?
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I read some books.
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I think I probably read
I Kissed Dating Goodbye.
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There was so many
of them at that time.
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Right.
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And they also had some
people come to our school
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and do purity
conferences and stuff like that.
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And I just...
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I did a lot of reading
early on and discovered that.
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So you did research on
your own, you were reading,
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and then you were
putting together some,
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you know, like your
own paradigm, right,
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and model and you said,
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"This is what
I'm going to follow
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and everything's
going to just be just fine."
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Where there are any...
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You went through
some personal experiences
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and then had some background
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that made you really
cautious about relationships?
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Yeah.
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Not that I want to
blow you right up...
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No.
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I mean this is great,
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you know, Joshua Harris
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talks about the fear
of being a part of it
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and trying to,
like, protect himself.
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And so I think
part of what drew me
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to the purity model was...
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It was like,
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"This is a foolproof
formula to not get hurt."
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And that seemed good at first.
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And then after the first,
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like disastrously
failed relationship,
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and I was like,
"I really need this."
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Oh, you did that
with the courtship model,
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the first disastrously
failed relationship?
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Yeah. You still failed?
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Yeah, I did.
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Still what? Failed.
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And still got hurt
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and then it was
like even more so like,
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"Definitely, don't
experience this again."
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So you kind of like
double down on a lot of...
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And you put on the full armor?
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Yeah. Right.
00:10:06.63\00:10:08.27
So, you know, it sounds like
it was more of your response
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to what didn't happen for you
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and then it caused you
to then put together...
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Well, what you
shared was it caused you
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to even tighten the ship.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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And it's an interesting
dynamic, as you said,
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because there are so
certain parts of the model
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that I took value in
and I felt to be inspiring
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and then other parts that,
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you know, I began to
realize, were inhibiting me
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from actually being able
00:10:36.90\00:10:38.23
to experience
intimacy in any form.
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Okay.
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It's a weird thing
for a vegetarian to say,
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but eat the meat
and leave the bones.
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Right.
00:10:44.81\00:10:46.14
You know? Yeah.
00:10:46.17\00:10:47.51
Really there is
some value there.
00:10:47.54\00:10:48.88
So you were saying that
00:10:48.91\00:10:50.25
you came from a
totally different headspace,
00:10:50.28\00:10:51.61
can you expand on
that a little bit?
00:10:51.65\00:10:52.98
Yeah.
00:10:53.01\00:10:54.35
So we both loved
to read coming up.
00:10:54.38\00:10:56.69
I was very much inspired
00:10:56.72\00:11:00.19
by the women's
liberation movement.
00:11:00.22\00:11:02.99
And it wasn't even
about dating at all, right?
00:11:03.02\00:11:07.00
I wanted to express myself,
00:11:07.03\00:11:09.46
and I was reading all
these incredible authors,
00:11:09.50\00:11:12.23
and I wanted to
understand the why oftentimes.
00:11:12.27\00:11:16.30
And so I was introduced
00:11:16.34\00:11:17.91
to I Kissed
Dating Goodbye in school,
00:11:17.94\00:11:21.04
I went to like a
traditional Bible school,
00:11:21.08\00:11:23.04
and the girls and the boys
00:11:23.08\00:11:24.58
were separated from Bible class.
00:11:24.61\00:11:26.05
And I felt like there
was a lot of shame involved
00:11:26.08\00:11:28.92
in this teaching where...
00:11:28.95\00:11:31.12
Often, it didn't even
have a lot to do with the book
00:11:31.15\00:11:34.09
but the way how do you
dress, how do you behave,
00:11:34.12\00:11:37.49
and so much of the
weight was placed on...
00:11:37.53\00:11:40.33
On your behavior. Exactly.
00:11:40.36\00:11:42.26
And I didn't feel
that it was very meaty.
00:11:42.30\00:11:45.07
And so it's funny
00:11:45.10\00:11:46.43
because we were
talking about dating
00:11:46.47\00:11:49.50
and different
dating philosophies
00:11:49.54\00:11:51.64
and the book title came up.
00:11:51.67\00:11:53.71
And I wasn't
sure how to tell Jason
00:11:53.74\00:11:57.15
what my interactions
with the book were, you know?
00:11:57.18\00:11:59.75
What were your
interactions with the book?
00:11:59.78\00:12:01.45
I burnt it in the
school parking lot.
00:12:01.48\00:12:04.49
It was an act of...
00:12:04.52\00:12:06.96
Early act of...
00:12:06.99\00:12:08.89
You know, actually,
to be totally honest,
00:12:08.92\00:12:11.13
I wasn't very successful.
00:12:11.16\00:12:12.49
It's hard to burn a book.
00:12:12.53\00:12:13.86
It wasn't entirely burnt.
00:12:13.90\00:12:15.23
It might not even
have been that the book
00:12:15.26\00:12:16.60
was so bad or
some of the things...
00:12:16.63\00:12:18.20
It was the way
that it was put across.
00:12:18.23\00:12:19.57
No. Exactly.
00:12:19.60\00:12:20.94
It was the way it was projected.
00:12:20.97\00:12:22.30
To be totally fair, I think
that there's a lot of value.
00:12:22.34\00:12:24.74
So did you think
when you told him
00:12:24.77\00:12:26.11
you burnt that
book that he'd be like,
00:12:26.14\00:12:27.48
"Oh, I don't
want to be with you,"
00:12:27.51\00:12:28.84
you know, kind of thing?
00:12:28.88\00:12:30.21
Maybe.
00:12:30.25\00:12:31.58
I was a little apprehensive
00:12:31.61\00:12:32.95
because I didn't
want to offend him.
00:12:32.98\00:12:34.32
You know, we were just
getting to know each other,
00:12:34.35\00:12:35.72
and I never even read the book.
00:12:35.75\00:12:37.85
It was more a symbolic
gesture if that makes sense.
00:12:37.89\00:12:40.82
So, Jason, what did you
feel when she told you that?
00:12:40.86\00:12:45.56
I thought, "Okay,
this might be interesting,"
00:12:45.59\00:12:48.66
but I had also,
00:12:48.70\00:12:50.17
you know, come a
long way from there
00:12:50.20\00:12:51.80
where I could see
00:12:51.83\00:12:53.17
why people didn't like the book,
00:12:53.20\00:12:54.57
and I had experienced my own
00:12:54.60\00:12:56.07
like reservations
with certain aspects of it.
00:12:56.10\00:12:58.54
You guys were at
polar ends, it sounds like,
00:12:58.57\00:13:00.71
in your philosophies.
00:13:00.74\00:13:02.08
Yeah.
00:13:02.11\00:13:03.45
How do you
reconcile being together today
00:13:03.48\00:13:06.05
coming from those two worlds?
00:13:06.08\00:13:07.58
If it had not been
for the Lord on our side.
00:13:07.62\00:13:10.25
Amen. Really.
00:13:10.29\00:13:11.69
It was God and
God alone that totally
00:13:11.72\00:13:14.56
through the power
of the Holy Spirit
00:13:14.59\00:13:15.92
and prayer...
00:13:15.96\00:13:17.29
So get into the story.
00:13:17.33\00:13:18.66
Fused our perception. Yeah.
00:13:18.69\00:13:20.03
So do you want to
start or do you want me to...
00:13:20.06\00:13:21.63
I can start.
00:13:21.66\00:13:23.00
So it would be easy, you know,
to say that we got together
00:13:23.03\00:13:25.20
and we worked out
like a middle ground
00:13:25.23\00:13:27.40
where our two
views came together,
00:13:27.44\00:13:29.10
but we didn't do that at all.
00:13:29.14\00:13:30.67
You know, it was just like
00:13:30.71\00:13:32.04
the spirit was
forging new ground
00:13:32.07\00:13:33.41
and we were trying
to keep up with Him.
00:13:33.44\00:13:34.78
It's really how we
felt in our relationship.
00:13:34.81\00:13:36.58
Well, can I start
just a little part here?
00:13:36.61\00:13:37.95
Yeah. Yeah.
00:13:37.98\00:13:39.31
Okay.
00:13:39.35\00:13:40.68
So Jason and Natanya
were at a seminar that I did.
00:13:40.72\00:13:42.58
Now here's the background.
00:13:42.62\00:13:44.02
I did the same
seminar about 10 minutes
00:13:44.05\00:13:45.85
from where Jason
lived in Philadelphia.
00:13:45.89\00:13:47.52
He didn't make it
to that one. Yeah.
00:13:47.56\00:13:48.92
So he was determined to
come to this one I did happen.
00:13:48.96\00:13:51.56
New Hampshire was
like six hours away.
00:13:51.59\00:13:53.40
And the guy powered
through, his battery failed,
00:13:53.43\00:13:56.00
he made it up
there, he gets there.
00:13:56.03\00:13:58.77
And then we're all at
this seminar and we're at...
00:13:58.80\00:14:00.90
Natanya's parents that night
00:14:00.94\00:14:03.57
sitting in the living
room with Jason and everyone.
00:14:03.61\00:14:04.97
And you Couchsurfed, I think,
00:14:05.01\00:14:06.34
just to find
someone to stay with.
00:14:06.37\00:14:07.71
Yeah.
00:14:07.74\00:14:09.08
You went through a lot
of hardship to get there.
00:14:09.11\00:14:10.45
And then...
00:14:10.48\00:14:11.81
And I think, "Why is
this guy so motivated
00:14:11.85\00:14:13.18
to come to my
measly little seminar?"
00:14:13.21\00:14:14.55
We're sitting in the living room
00:14:14.58\00:14:15.92
and all of a sudden,
I'm looking back and forth
00:14:15.95\00:14:17.29
between the two of
them going, "That's why."
00:14:17.32\00:14:20.86
And I didn't know he
didn't even know her.
00:14:20.89\00:14:24.46
He didn't even
know she was up there.
00:14:24.49\00:14:25.89
So you saw the spark
even before they did.
00:14:25.93\00:14:27.90
I saw that.
00:14:27.93\00:14:29.26
And then within
like a few weeks,
00:14:29.30\00:14:30.67
I see the stuff on
Facebook, and I'm like, "Wow!
00:14:30.70\00:14:33.17
God did something here."
00:14:33.20\00:14:34.54
So anyway, sorry, I didn't
mean to filibuster your story,
00:14:34.57\00:14:36.27
but go for it.
00:14:36.30\00:14:37.64
Yeah, that was definitely it.
00:14:37.67\00:14:39.01
You saw
something and we believe,
00:14:39.04\00:14:40.38
you know, God, when He saw us,
00:14:40.41\00:14:41.74
He saw me smiling
because He knew what was up.
00:14:41.78\00:14:44.01
Yeah. We had no idea.
00:14:44.05\00:14:45.38
And we had no idea.
00:14:45.41\00:14:46.75
I thought...
00:14:46.78\00:14:48.12
I looked at the two of
you and I know both of you,
00:14:48.15\00:14:49.48
and I'm like, "They'd
be perfect for each other.
00:14:49.52\00:14:50.85
They're perfect."
00:14:50.89\00:14:52.22
Wow. Well.
00:14:52.25\00:14:53.59
So when did you become
aware that there was something?
00:14:53.62\00:14:54.96
What happened?
00:14:54.99\00:14:56.32
It wasn't until
about two months later.
00:14:56.36\00:14:58.49
Yeah.
00:14:58.53\00:15:00.56
I had been given a
book that I wanted to...
00:15:00.60\00:15:04.03
It was a prayer
challenge, 40 days.
00:15:04.07\00:15:06.23
I wanted to do it with someone
00:15:06.27\00:15:07.60
and I couldn't find
anyone in the world to do with.
00:15:07.64\00:15:09.80
And then finally,
in frustration, I said,
00:15:09.84\00:15:11.17
"God, who do you want
me to do this book with?"
00:15:11.21\00:15:13.91
And very quickly, it was Jason.
00:15:13.94\00:15:15.48
You know, we lectured
God, I said, "Oh, but, Lord,
00:15:15.51\00:15:17.81
that would be
very irresponsible,
00:15:17.85\00:15:19.31
I've already friend-zoned him."
00:15:19.35\00:15:20.95
And you know, it's
funny, in retrospect,
00:15:20.98\00:15:23.79
we both thought that
00:15:23.82\00:15:25.65
the other was like not our type,
00:15:25.69\00:15:28.42
like, "Oh, she's nice, but..."
00:15:28.46\00:15:31.79
We saw a lot of obstacles.
00:15:31.83\00:15:33.16
Exactly.
00:15:33.19\00:15:34.53
In paper, we looked
at our lists individually
00:15:34.56\00:15:35.96
and we were like,
"This is not going to work."
00:15:36.00\00:15:38.17
Yeah, but God knew better.
00:15:38.20\00:15:39.97
So we got started and, you know,
00:15:40.00\00:15:42.24
it was short little
prayer exercises every day.
00:15:42.27\00:15:44.97
So you were going
through a prayer book?
00:15:45.01\00:15:46.84
Like a prayer challenge
book, I mean, together?
00:15:46.88\00:15:49.24
Yes. On the phone.
00:15:49.28\00:15:50.61
Okay. On the phone.
00:15:50.65\00:15:52.21
Did you ask him if he would
go through the book with you?
00:15:52.25\00:15:54.38
Yeah, I asked him if
he would do it with me.
00:15:54.42\00:15:56.28
And it's actually kind of
funny the way it worked out
00:15:56.32\00:15:58.32
because I was still,
like, very reluctant.
00:15:58.35\00:16:00.36
God told me like,
00:16:00.39\00:16:01.72
"Maybe this would be
a good idea," I said,
00:16:01.76\00:16:03.09
"No, God, I don't think so."
00:16:03.12\00:16:04.46
And then that night,
00:16:04.49\00:16:05.83
that was maybe the third time
00:16:05.86\00:16:07.20
we'd ever spoken on the phone,
00:16:07.23\00:16:08.56
Jason starts asking
me questions about prayer
00:16:08.60\00:16:09.93
'cause he knows I'd
done prayer seminars
00:16:09.96\00:16:11.63
and workshops and
it was like my thing.
00:16:11.67\00:16:14.00
And I was like, "Oh, man,
this is a sign from the Lord."
00:16:14.04\00:16:16.30
So I suggested that
he'd do it by himself.
00:16:16.34\00:16:18.44
But two days
later, we spoke again.
00:16:21.14\00:16:24.38
I said, "Actually, I
have the book," so...
00:16:24.41\00:16:26.98
And I got on Amazon
Prime in two day shipping,
00:16:27.02\00:16:28.82
I had the book.
00:16:28.85\00:16:30.89
Yeah. And we were ready to go.
00:16:30.92\00:16:32.25
And what was supposed
to be 10-15 minutes a day
00:16:32.29\00:16:34.32
turned into well over an hour.
00:16:34.36\00:16:36.52
We were having to
change our schedule.
00:16:36.56\00:16:38.73
And talking about, like, prayer
and meeting in the middle,
00:16:38.76\00:16:42.43
I didn't come from a space
00:16:42.46\00:16:44.33
where I was
creating healthy boundaries
00:16:44.37\00:16:45.90
in my relationships.
00:16:45.93\00:16:47.37
And I was praying about it.
00:16:47.40\00:16:49.04
I said, "Lord, this is new.
00:16:49.07\00:16:52.07
What boundaries
would You have for me?"
00:16:52.11\00:16:54.48
And, you know,
God is funny, He says,
00:16:54.51\00:16:56.41
"Well, you can talk to Jason
00:16:56.44\00:16:57.78
only half as much
as you talk to Me."
00:16:57.81\00:16:59.71
So I was changing my schedule
00:16:59.75\00:17:02.88
entirely where there were days
00:17:02.92\00:17:04.39
where I would wake up
early and I'd be praying
00:17:04.42\00:17:06.19
for like three hours
00:17:06.22\00:17:07.72
so that I could
have an hour and a half
00:17:07.76\00:17:09.09
nearly to talk to him.
00:17:09.12\00:17:10.96
And it was really
amazing how everything unfolded.
00:17:10.99\00:17:14.93
It was only five
days before we knew that,
00:17:14.96\00:17:18.27
you know, this
was something of God.
00:17:18.30\00:17:19.80
Yeah.
00:17:19.83\00:17:21.17
And it ended on his
birthday, 40 days in.
00:17:21.20\00:17:24.14
And just 4 days after it...
00:17:24.17\00:17:25.51
What do you mean
ended on his birthday?
00:17:25.54\00:17:26.88
The 40 days of
prayer. Oh, the 40 days.
00:17:26.91\00:17:28.24
Okay. Ended on his birthday.
00:17:28.28\00:17:29.61
Not the
relationship. No, no, no.
00:17:29.64\00:17:33.08
Yeah, it's important clear up.
00:17:33.11\00:17:35.12
And he proposed to me...
00:17:35.15\00:17:36.79
On his birthday?
00:17:36.82\00:17:38.15
No, four days
after. Four days after.
00:17:38.19\00:17:39.52
Four days after. Yeah.
00:17:39.55\00:17:40.89
Remind you we were
living over six hours apart.
00:17:40.92\00:17:42.26
Forty days of
prayer, his birthday...
00:17:42.29\00:17:43.93
Forty days of
prayer, his birthday,
00:17:43.96\00:17:45.29
and then the proposal.
00:17:45.33\00:17:46.66
Yeah.
00:17:46.70\00:17:48.03
All in all, we dated
just short of a month.
00:17:48.06\00:17:49.40
Was there a point
00:17:49.43\00:17:50.77
where you
decided you were dating
00:17:50.80\00:17:52.33
and told the world that
you were a couple or no,
00:17:52.37\00:17:55.70
it just sort of happened?
00:17:55.74\00:17:57.07
Yeah.
00:17:57.11\00:17:58.44
It was maybe a couple
of weeks into the book,
00:17:58.47\00:17:59.97
I went up and visited her.
00:18:00.01\00:18:02.14
I drove up from
Philly to Vermont,
00:18:02.18\00:18:03.78
and we had...
00:18:03.81\00:18:05.18
We were pretty
sure by that point
00:18:05.21\00:18:07.18
but, you know,
00:18:07.22\00:18:08.55
it was actually like
meet together in person again,
00:18:08.58\00:18:10.59
and then like...
00:18:10.62\00:18:11.95
What was that drive
like from Philly to Vermont?
00:18:11.99\00:18:15.42
I'm just curious.
00:18:15.46\00:18:16.79
So as we can kind of
see in a lot of things,
00:18:16.83\00:18:19.26
I'm a very cautious
and a methodical person,
00:18:19.29\00:18:22.50
and I was very
eager to get there.
00:18:22.53\00:18:24.33
I got my first speeding
ticket ever on that trip.
00:18:24.37\00:18:28.10
You never speed normally?
00:18:28.14\00:18:29.80
Yeah. Never.
00:18:29.84\00:18:33.44
So the woman who's driving
across the country with Jason.
00:18:33.48\00:18:36.44
Yeah. Right.
00:18:36.48\00:18:38.25
So your story is amazing,
00:18:38.28\00:18:41.12
And there may be people
in the audience wondering,
00:18:41.15\00:18:43.69
"Well, how do you know?"
00:18:43.72\00:18:45.05
Like you talk about
hearing God and having assurance
00:18:45.09\00:18:48.39
and having the affirmations
00:18:48.42\00:18:50.16
based on your
different experiences,
00:18:50.19\00:18:52.59
but how do you say to
somebody, "I knew because?"
00:18:52.63\00:18:56.46
Yeah, good question.
00:18:56.50\00:18:57.87
That is a good question.
00:18:57.90\00:18:59.23
You know, I had a
plan for how I would know,
00:18:59.27\00:19:01.80
and my plan was
like a five-year plan.
00:19:01.84\00:19:03.81
Of course,
because you're methodical.
00:19:03.84\00:19:05.27
Yes, very much.
00:19:05.31\00:19:07.41
Meet the girl, get
to know her for a year.
00:19:07.44\00:19:08.78
You were going to
date for five years.
00:19:08.81\00:19:10.15
Oh, I see.
00:19:10.18\00:19:11.51
Date for two years,
engage for two years,
00:19:11.55\00:19:12.88
they you get married,
it's great, it's perfect.
00:19:12.91\00:19:14.78
And somewhere along
that line, you feel...
00:19:14.82\00:19:16.95
It turned to 40 days. Yeah.
00:19:16.99\00:19:19.95
I would imagine
that I would feel
00:19:19.99\00:19:21.32
very strongly about my decision
00:19:21.36\00:19:22.69
and then I would ask God
for some confirming sign,
00:19:22.72\00:19:25.39
and He would
help me out somehow,
00:19:25.43\00:19:27.40
and I would do it.
00:19:27.43\00:19:28.76
But obviously, that's
not how it worked out at all.
00:19:28.80\00:19:30.53
Not this time.
00:19:30.57\00:19:31.90
And so...
00:19:31.93\00:19:33.27
I don't know.
00:19:33.30\00:19:34.64
We found ourselves
praying together and...
00:19:34.67\00:19:36.00
That's the key.
00:19:36.04\00:19:37.81
It was, like, every
day, like she was saying,
00:19:37.84\00:19:39.54
we were praying
before we met together for,
00:19:39.57\00:19:42.14
you know, maybe
an hour or two each,
00:19:42.18\00:19:44.25
and the things that
God was revealing to me,
00:19:44.28\00:19:46.78
He was revealing to her.
00:19:46.82\00:19:48.15
And so when we
would share together,
00:19:48.18\00:19:49.55
everything was
just aligning together.
00:19:49.58\00:19:52.15
And it felt like
every day was a revelation
00:19:52.19\00:19:55.62
that we were
supposed to be together.
00:19:55.66\00:19:57.99
And I don't know if this
really answers your question
00:19:58.03\00:20:00.70
'cause it's really
hard to give a formula.
00:20:00.73\00:20:02.43
A concrete answer.
00:20:02.46\00:20:03.80
Did you counsel
with your parents
00:20:03.83\00:20:05.17
with their some involvement?
00:20:05.20\00:20:06.53
Yeah.
00:20:06.57\00:20:07.90
What was the nature of it
too, like was it like veto power
00:20:07.94\00:20:10.21
or advice and
busing or what was it like?
00:20:10.24\00:20:13.11
So that was another
affirmation for me personally.
00:20:13.14\00:20:15.54
I'm very close to my parents.
00:20:15.58\00:20:17.81
And my poor father,
00:20:17.85\00:20:19.18
we'd had a conversation
shortly before all this
00:20:19.21\00:20:22.38
where I told him that marriage
was a case of pick your poison.
00:20:22.42\00:20:25.99
You know, I was
very cut and dry.
00:20:26.02\00:20:28.02
And really talk to me about...
00:20:28.06\00:20:29.39
The case of picking your poison.
00:20:29.42\00:20:30.76
Picking your
poison. Picking your poison.
00:20:30.79\00:20:32.13
So it works better
for some than others.
00:20:32.16\00:20:34.20
And you know,
hopefully, you get better odds
00:20:34.23\00:20:36.83
but really nobody's
perfect, we're all human,
00:20:36.87\00:20:39.23
we're all going to fail
and disappoint each other.
00:20:39.27\00:20:41.27
So hopefully you get something
that's a little less painful,
00:20:41.30\00:20:43.71
and that was it.
00:20:43.74\00:20:45.51
And so he was using that
as an illustration in sermons,
00:20:45.54\00:20:48.51
my father is a minister.
00:20:48.54\00:20:49.98
It was difficult.
00:20:50.01\00:20:51.41
And then fast forward,
I call him on the phone,
00:20:51.45\00:20:55.75
I said, "Daddy,
I'm in love with Jason,
00:20:55.78\00:20:58.95
I think I'm going to marry him."
00:20:58.99\00:21:01.32
And what did he
say? That's poison?
00:21:01.36\00:21:02.79
No. No.
00:21:02.82\00:21:04.29
Actually, he was
putting his suit jacket on
00:21:04.33\00:21:07.93
to go on the
platform to preach, he says,
00:21:07.96\00:21:09.80
"Can we talk about
this another time?"
00:21:09.83\00:21:12.47
But he gave his blessing.
00:21:12.50\00:21:15.04
He gave his blessing.
My mom gave her blessing.
00:21:15.07\00:21:18.47
And it was so
assertive from their point.
00:21:18.51\00:21:23.18
Then I was like, "This is God,"
00:21:23.21\00:21:25.01
'cause I knew how
much they love me.
00:21:25.05\00:21:26.38
What do you mean by assertive?
00:21:26.41\00:21:27.75
They were very affirmative.
00:21:27.78\00:21:29.58
It was very strong short answer.
00:21:29.62\00:21:31.62
Like yes.
00:21:31.65\00:21:32.99
"Yes, definitely.
00:21:33.02\00:21:34.36
This is great even
though it was quick."
00:21:34.39\00:21:36.02
And he wouldn't expect
that normally from you.
00:21:36.06\00:21:37.83
Exactly.
00:21:37.86\00:21:39.19
My mother...
00:21:39.23\00:21:40.56
Had they met Jason?
00:21:40.60\00:21:41.93
Yes, they had met Jason
00:21:41.96\00:21:43.30
actually at
Jennifer Jill's seminar.
00:21:43.33\00:21:45.40
So it was a brief meeting.
00:21:45.43\00:21:46.77
And so they saw
something in him too?
00:21:46.80\00:21:48.14
No.
00:21:48.17\00:21:50.64
My mother was
trying to hook Jason up
00:21:50.67\00:21:53.41
with one of my friends.
00:21:53.44\00:21:54.78
Okay.
00:21:54.81\00:21:56.14
It was very, very honest,
like it was out of the blue.
00:21:56.18\00:21:58.08
She was thinking
this would never work.
00:21:58.11\00:21:59.75
Yeah.
00:21:59.78\00:22:01.12
But they saw in
him a nice young man.
00:22:01.15\00:22:02.48
She would eat
him alive. Her words.
00:22:02.52\00:22:05.99
But they saw in
him a nice young man.
00:22:06.02\00:22:08.12
They saw Jesus in him, you know?
00:22:08.16\00:22:09.69
There you go.
00:22:09.72\00:22:11.06
And I see Jesus
in him every day.
00:22:11.09\00:22:12.63
And if I could give
advice to our young people,
00:22:12.66\00:22:15.83
like we were
both looking for Jesus
00:22:15.86\00:22:18.27
and we didn't stop
until we found Him.
00:22:18.30\00:22:21.57
And that's where the
rubber meets the road.
00:22:21.60\00:22:24.37
So when you say you
both were looking for Jesus,
00:22:24.41\00:22:26.44
can you expound on that?
00:22:26.47\00:22:28.24
Were you looking
for Jesus in each other
00:22:28.28\00:22:30.65
or looking for Jesus asking Him
00:22:30.68\00:22:33.01
for His divine guidance or both?
00:22:33.05\00:22:35.15
I think both.
00:22:35.18\00:22:36.52
Yeah, I think I was looking
00:22:36.55\00:22:37.89
for always a fuller and
fuller experience of Jesus.
00:22:37.92\00:22:41.49
For yourself? Yeah.
00:22:41.52\00:22:43.26
And wanting to partner with Him
00:22:43.29\00:22:45.83
in every aspect of life,
00:22:45.86\00:22:47.43
and that included
marriage and the relationship.
00:22:47.46\00:22:50.43
And so one of the
key moments for me was,
00:22:50.47\00:22:52.93
after we had
began praying together,
00:22:52.97\00:22:55.80
we started praying
at every conversation
00:22:55.84\00:22:58.81
I mean, not just
our "prayer time."
00:22:58.84\00:23:01.51
And if we were trying to
make a decision together,
00:23:01.54\00:23:03.61
we'd pray about it.
00:23:03.65\00:23:04.98
And like just this
part of inviting Jesus into,
00:23:05.01\00:23:08.08
like 24/7 part
of the relationship,
00:23:08.12\00:23:09.98
I was like,
00:23:10.02\00:23:11.35
"This is what
I've always wanted."
00:23:11.39\00:23:12.75
You know, it's...
00:23:12.79\00:23:14.12
I had other
relationships that...
00:23:14.16\00:23:17.19
You know, it was good
cultural Adventist experience,
00:23:17.23\00:23:20.36
but it wasn't like a
holistic, dedicated experience.
00:23:20.40\00:23:25.77
I found that in her. Amen.
00:23:25.80\00:23:27.87
What would you
say to young people
00:23:27.90\00:23:29.90
that feel the urge
to find a life partner?
00:23:29.94\00:23:33.88
And what would you say to them?
00:23:33.91\00:23:35.98
Would you say...
00:23:36.01\00:23:37.35
Find Jesus, right? Yeah.
00:23:37.38\00:23:39.61
He is first and foremost
00:23:39.65\00:23:41.95
because not everybody's
going to find a life partner,
00:23:41.98\00:23:44.42
that's the
reality of the situation
00:23:44.45\00:23:46.82
or an appropriate life partner.
00:23:46.86\00:23:49.19
So what would you say to them?
00:23:49.22\00:23:50.59
Like if someone's like, "I
really want to be married, "
00:23:50.63\00:23:52.59
what's your response?
00:23:52.63\00:23:53.96
And I'm sure you address
this because aren't you doing...
00:23:54.00\00:23:56.53
and we'll get into
this in the second half,
00:23:56.56\00:23:58.80
the ministry
that God is bringing
00:23:58.83\00:24:00.17
out of your marriage.
00:24:00.20\00:24:01.54
Yeah. Amen.
00:24:01.57\00:24:02.90
And I'm sure you're
getting questions like this.
00:24:02.94\00:24:04.27
So what's the
nutshell answer that you give
00:24:04.31\00:24:05.84
in two minutes or less?
00:24:05.87\00:24:10.91
Yeah.
00:24:10.95\00:24:12.28
I mean, it sounds
a little cliché(C)
00:24:12.31\00:24:13.65
but like really dedicate
00:24:13.68\00:24:15.02
to getting to know Jesus first.
00:24:15.05\00:24:17.52
And that doesn't
mean like you're saying
00:24:17.55\00:24:18.89
you can't have
friendship dating,
00:24:18.92\00:24:20.26
you can get to
know a variety of people
00:24:20.29\00:24:22.99
and learn your
dislikes and likes.
00:24:23.02\00:24:25.96
But really, like
as we experienced,
00:24:25.99\00:24:28.36
we had...
00:24:28.40\00:24:29.73
I mean, we were
both around 30 years old,
00:24:29.76\00:24:32.30
we knew our dislikes and likes.
00:24:32.33\00:24:33.97
And yeah, when we compared
ourselves to each other,
00:24:34.00\00:24:36.77
we thought this
is not going to work,
00:24:36.81\00:24:38.17
it's not a good match,
00:24:38.21\00:24:39.54
but it was only through prayer
that we could see as God saw.
00:24:39.57\00:24:43.04
Yeah.
00:24:43.08\00:24:44.41
And He was like,
00:24:44.45\00:24:45.78
"You guys are
perfect for each other."
00:24:45.81\00:24:47.15
Compatibility is not
necessarily seamless, you know?
00:24:47.18\00:24:49.05
Yeah. Yeah.
00:24:49.08\00:24:50.42
And eventually, you
know, as we continued
00:24:50.45\00:24:52.02
to get to know
each other and pray,
00:24:52.05\00:24:53.59
our eyes were opened to see,
00:24:53.62\00:24:55.19
"Wow, we are
perfect for each other.
00:24:55.22\00:24:56.66
This is like really amazing."
00:24:56.69\00:24:58.03
Yeah.
00:24:58.06\00:24:59.39
Do you think
that someone's desire
00:24:59.43\00:25:01.60
to find a partner
is sufficient reason
00:25:01.63\00:25:04.57
to approach it in
an intentional way
00:25:04.60\00:25:07.24
'cause I kind of lean that way,
00:25:07.27\00:25:08.64
like if you feel like
00:25:08.67\00:25:10.01
God is calling
you to a partnership,
00:25:10.04\00:25:11.37
be intentional about it
00:25:11.41\00:25:12.74
and put yourself in situations
where you may meet someone,
00:25:12.77\00:25:15.81
don't hide in your room
00:25:15.84\00:25:17.28
'cause there are some people do,
00:25:17.31\00:25:18.68
"God is going to
bring me someone."
00:25:18.71\00:25:20.35
Yeah. I think
that's unrealistic.
00:25:20.38\00:25:21.82
However, with the advances
of modern technology today...
00:25:21.85\00:25:25.15
You can meet
them in your own room.
00:25:25.19\00:25:26.76
You know...
00:25:26.79\00:25:28.12
With a lot of dating websites.
00:25:28.16\00:25:29.79
But what I'm
hearing is also that
00:25:29.82\00:25:31.43
there was some intentionality
in what you both did,
00:25:31.46\00:25:34.63
you just did it to prayer
and seeking God and His faith
00:25:34.66\00:25:37.83
and inviting
Christ to the process.
00:25:37.87\00:25:40.14
And we all have
to be intentional
00:25:40.17\00:25:43.14
in doing that in our
lives with everything
00:25:43.17\00:25:44.87
and very importantly with dating
00:25:44.91\00:25:47.18
or seeking a life mate.
00:25:47.21\00:25:48.54
And it sounds like you
kind of relinquished yourself
00:25:48.58\00:25:51.18
of your predisposition.
00:25:51.21\00:25:53.68
Yeah. Conceived with ideas.
00:25:53.72\00:25:55.05
Yeah, totally.
00:25:55.08\00:25:56.42
There was an incredible
amount of trust in this space.
00:25:56.45\00:25:59.82
I don't know if
there's time for a quick story.
00:25:59.85\00:26:02.22
Go for it.
00:26:02.26\00:26:03.59
So we're dating,
newly, newly dating,
00:26:03.63\00:26:07.56
and we decided,
00:26:07.60\00:26:08.93
"You know, Canada's only
an hour and a half away."
00:26:08.96\00:26:10.60
So we go on a
wonderful date in Canada
00:26:10.63\00:26:14.84
and we're coming
back across the border
00:26:14.87\00:26:16.64
and, you know, you
have those quiet moments
00:26:16.67\00:26:18.57
in the evening
where you're both tired,
00:26:18.61\00:26:20.44
you had a full
day, and out of nowhere,
00:26:20.48\00:26:23.04
Jason looks over at
me and he's just like,
00:26:23.08\00:26:27.38
"You know, God has called
you to Vermont, I believe it.
00:26:27.42\00:26:32.45
And I'm willing to
leave everything right now."
00:26:32.49\00:26:36.73
At that point,
00:26:36.76\00:26:38.09
he was very engaged in ministry,
00:26:38.13\00:26:40.10
working with REACH,
00:26:40.13\00:26:41.46
and he had a lot
of things going on.
00:26:41.50\00:26:42.83
In Philadelphia. Yeah. Totally.
00:26:42.86\00:26:44.20
He said, "I'm
willing to leave all of that
00:26:44.23\00:26:47.04
to come and be were
God has called us to be."
00:26:47.07\00:26:51.74
And were you
engaged at that point?
00:26:51.77\00:26:53.48
No. Wow.
00:26:53.51\00:26:56.08
That would have been
either like great or, "Uh-oh."
00:26:56.11\00:26:58.75
No.
00:26:58.78\00:27:00.12
But that
realization hit him real time.
00:27:00.15\00:27:01.85
Yeah.
00:27:01.88\00:27:03.22
And he's looking
at me and it's dark,
00:27:03.25\00:27:04.59
so it's kind of forgiving,
00:27:04.62\00:27:05.95
but the tears just
started streaming down his face.
00:27:05.99\00:27:07.82
Someone's willing
to sacrifice for you.
00:27:07.86\00:27:09.42
He's leaving his family,
he's leaving his friends,
00:27:09.46\00:27:12.26
he's leaving everything for me.
00:27:12.29\00:27:13.63
And I think no greater
love than this than a man,
00:27:13.66\00:27:16.97
you know, would
lay down his life,
00:27:17.00\00:27:19.33
you know, for his
friends, for his love, you know?
00:27:19.37\00:27:21.84
Amen. Oh, I love it.
00:27:21.87\00:27:23.61
And there is second
segment of this program,
00:27:23.64\00:27:26.71
Prayer Partners
Become Life Partners.
00:27:26.74\00:27:28.88
We're going to go into
how that sacrificial love
00:27:28.91\00:27:32.41
really enables the couple
00:27:32.45\00:27:34.18
to get through the
difficulties of marriage.
00:27:34.22\00:27:35.88
Everybody has
difficulties in marriage.
00:27:35.92\00:27:38.49
And really what
makes the marriage
00:27:38.52\00:27:40.09
is what happens after the altar.
00:27:40.12\00:27:42.09
We're so glad
that Jason and Natanya
00:27:42.12\00:27:44.63
did some really cool things
00:27:44.66\00:27:45.99
and followed
Jesus before the altar,
00:27:46.03\00:27:47.70
but they're going to
get into the nuts and bolts
00:27:47.73\00:27:49.43
of what life is like
00:27:49.46\00:27:51.03
with two sinners
living under one roof
00:27:51.07\00:27:53.27
and how to
resolve that conflict.
00:27:53.30\00:27:54.87
Please join us for that program.
00:27:54.90\00:27:56.67
We look forward to seeing you.
00:27:56.71\00:27:58.04
Amen.
00:27:58.07\00:27:59.41