Welcome to A
multitude of Counselors,
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part two of
Dictatorship and Mental Health.
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We had an amazing
conversation during part one,
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and I'm just kind of
really frankly overwhelmed
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as I think of all the directions
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we could take this discussions.
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But we do want to
give a quick recap.
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We talked about our
guest, Jaime Jorge's childhood
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under Fidel
Castro's Cuba communism,
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and it was fascinating.
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We saw that it's a
very difficult environment
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to grow up in, but fortunately,
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there were sort of
moderating influences
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in his loving family
and in his church family.
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And so we kind of got a sense
of what it was like to grow up
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in that environment,
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some of the mental health issues
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that come out of it, but
how God worked in his life.
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We got to the point
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where he was
partying in college,
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and so we really
want to unpack that.
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We want to all of
your deep, dark secrets.
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No, I'm kidding.
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But let me quickly
introduce my panel here.
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This is Shelley Wiggins,
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she is a professional
counselor from Michigan.
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This is David Guerrero,
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he is a biblical
counselor from Wisconsin,
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and he does a bunch
of other things too,
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but I'm just going to
say biblical counselor.
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Just leave it
there. Just leave it there.
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Yeah, just leave it.
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And Nivischi Edwards who
is a therapist and teacher,
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and she lives
currently in Tennessee
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and will be moving
to Georgia pretty soon
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for certain reasons
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that we won't
talk about right now.
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Anyway and Jaime Jorge,
sometimes known as Jaime Jorge.
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That's right.
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So we're going
to call him Jaime.
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Talk us from the
wild party life post Cuba
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to where you are at today.
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So it was a phase of
me really sort of seeing
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what was out there.
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Yeah.
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I grew up in a very
sheltered environment,
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which I'm thankful for in a way
because my parents shielded me.
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Well, that's what
you're supposed to do
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as parents when
your kids are growing up.
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That's right.
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But especially from
that whole communist regime.
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Right.
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All of the challenges
that we had outside the home,
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in school, on the street.
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By the way, we lived in the days
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where a few said
Jesus in a public place,
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you could get
arrested and go to jail,
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that's not the case anymore.
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But at home, we
had this bubble of love
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and worship and fellowship
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with our family and
our other Christian friends
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that made a huge difference.
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So when I got here, I
just started to have freedoms
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that I never had before,
and so I started to experience
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or experiment
with those freedoms.
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And so I did
what young people did
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during my time which was go out,
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you know, drinking
after class or partying,
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you know, at night or whatever.
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And I just found the whole thing
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to be very empty,
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and very time
consuming, and time wasting.
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And I really had
an encounter with God,
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not that I didn't as a
child, but I had one as an adult
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where I realized that
people look for outlets, right?
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Some people turn to
drugs, some people turn to sex,
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some people turn to hard work.
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We talk about this whole,
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you know, the
virtues of working hard,
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but if other parts of our lives
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are out of
balance, that's not good.
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That's not healthy.
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And so I studied the Bible,
I came to my own realizations
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and conclusions about
my relationship with God
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and decided that
these things were not things
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that were going to
be constructive for me,
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that were not going to help me,
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and so I decided to
focus my energies on...
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And you family is in
the US at this point.
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Yes. We were
able to come together.
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So you also
mentioned that you started down
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the path of medical school,
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but then you
ended up choosing music.
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Could you talk about that?
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Was it at all...
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You said it was your calling,
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you realize that
music was a calling for you.
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But did you feel
that it was your calling?
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Well, I probably
always did. Okay.
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But I also know how difficult
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the life of a
Christian musician is.
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No money.
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And I just didn't
want to go through that.
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My parents had come
from nothing, we had nothing,
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and so I thought
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we have
opportunities in this country.
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I want to choose a career
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that will give
me the opportunity
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to bless my family
and others as well,
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and I love medicine
because when I was little boy
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and I was very sickly,
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my doctor who was
a Christian doctor,
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took such good care of me that,
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I thought, "I want to do
that for people as well."
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What an opportunity to
really bless people, yeah.
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I wanted to go to the Amazon
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and be a missionary
for a period of time.
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But halfway
through medical school,
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you know, God is
knocking at my door
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and then he's opening the door,
and, you know, finally saw it.
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But is music also healing for us
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and have you found it to be so?
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Isn't that part
of your whole thing?
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Most definitely. Yeah.
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I planned if I ever became
a doctor to do music therapy
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for my patients in my practice,
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even though I
didn't go that route,
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I have done music therapy.
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He comes in with a stethoscope,
whips out the violin.
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You know, that'd be
great. And brings healing.
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No need to prescribe medication.
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Yeah, everybody is great.
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Which means the drug companies
wouldn't be very happy.
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No.
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But I spent four and a half...
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So you wouldn't have
been a doctor very long.
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That's right.
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So when I did music therapy
in several Ohio hospitals,
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I would go in
and I would play...
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Did you really? Mm-hmm.
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For four and a half years.
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And I would
play for the patients
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and the staff and the staff
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would tell me,
"When you're here,
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we don't have to administer
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as many pain killers
as when you are not here."
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Isn't that
great? That's awesome.
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That is amazing.
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And didn't you mention
some research has showed
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that calming effects
and the very symptoms
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that we see,
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you know, develop out
of a political dictatorship
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that kind of systemic
problems that people have,
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didn't you share some research
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about how music treats
those very things, you know?
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Great.
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'Cause in the segment, Jen,
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you highlighted about
the symptoms of people
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who come out of that
type of culture that included,
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you know, depression, anxiety,
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PTSD, hyperventilation, you use.
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Well, it was
chronic hyperventilation
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which we just figured
out was panic attacks.
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And so all of that...
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I never recalled that.
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Has to do with high
blood pressure issues
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and what not.
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So I'm curious
have you actually seen
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those happen when you
were in those settings.
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So I would play for
the patients in the rooms
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and I would play,
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"What a Friend
we have in Jesus,"
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"Come Thou Fount
of Every Blessing,"
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Leaning On The
Everlasting Arms."
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And you'd see their
heart rates start to come down,
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their blood
pressure would start to drop,
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and it made a
very profound effect
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in the
wellbeing of those people,
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even for just that moment.
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So imagine if we
exposed ourselves to good music
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that was therapeutic, you know?
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And of course,
tyranny doesn't have
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to just come
from the government.
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It can come from home,
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it can come from
a bad relationship,
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it could come from
those types of situations.
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And we want to use
all of these tools...
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Can you unpack that a little?
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So you are
saying that, you know,
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I grew up under
political relationship,
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and I had these
effects, and we've established
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that really well
during this program,
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but can you take
the same principles
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and apply them in
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another context
i.e. family, church,
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and does it have the
same psychological impact?
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And then my
following question would be,
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distill down
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what is that
central characteristic
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that would apply
both in a political,
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and a church, family
context, isn't it controlled?
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And the snuffing
out of the individual...
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That's what it comes down to.
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Of individualism and the only
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we can really
bond as human beings
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is to be fully individuals.
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So there's like a paradox.
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We have to be individual,
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we also blend
our lives together.
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But without that individuality,
relationship dies,
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so they strip people
of their individuality
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as does any
kind of dictatorship,
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and in that way,
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reduce people's capacity to
have intimate relationships.
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Do you ever see
that in families?
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Do you ever see it in
churches? Often. Often.
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And when you do,
do you freak out?
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Acquainted with a family
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where the husband spiritually
manipulated the wife.
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"I'm the head of the home."
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Not only that,
Jesus would not be happy
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with that kind of
activity on your part.
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Yeah, "'Cause you
can't rebel against me."
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That's right.
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And "I am the head of the home."
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When a man starts saying that,
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I start to
really raise my eyebrows
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because if you
have to resort to that,
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to show your authority,
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then there is a problem
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because Jesus is the
head of the church, right?
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He doesn't say
you have to do this
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or this and that.
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"You do what I have
shown you because you love me."
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So when you start having to say,
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"The Lord would frown
upon that on your part,"
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or, "You need to be home early,"
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or this and that and the other,
you start seeing the results.
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A person then becomes,
they lose their individuality,
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they start becoming
dependent on their spouse
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or their husband
for their thought,
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for their guidance,
for their direction,
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and they lose
their individuality,
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they are completely dependent.
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With tragic effects.
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And I think mental health,
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like what I have
seen in religious homes
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that are characterized
by a form of dictatorship
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is people end up
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with more anxiety
disorders, more OCD.
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They maybe
outwardly more compliant
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and it may seem like,
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"Wow, that family did
a great job of raising
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that child just right,"
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but if you get down
into the nuts and bolts,
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kind of the underbelly
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of how that
family system functioned,
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those children were
effectively brainwashed
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and they have
major health problems,
00:10:01.30\00:10:04.93
a lot of them are
my clients, actually.
00:10:04.97\00:10:07.24
So you see this,
does it trigger you,
00:10:07.27\00:10:10.07
you know, when you
see it in families?
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Do you just feel like
it's Castro all over again?
00:10:11.61\00:10:13.78
Most definitely.
00:10:13.81\00:10:15.28
And it makes me very
upset and very angry.
00:10:15.31\00:10:17.71
And I can tell you,
I've been on concert trips
00:10:17.75\00:10:21.72
where I have
been assigned a pastor
00:10:21.75\00:10:26.69
or a leader to take me
00:10:26.72\00:10:28.42
during these two weeks during,
you know, all over the country,
00:10:28.46\00:10:33.03
and I have seen
this behavior constantly
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and I've had to...
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I've mentioned it
to my wife before,
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I've had to
take the person aside
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and let listen
what you're doing...
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What do you
actually day to them?
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You just said it
what you're doing.
00:10:46.44\00:10:47.78
It depends on the situation,
00:10:47.81\00:10:49.14
but I've had to
confront people and say,
00:10:49.18\00:10:51.51
"You are being a tyrant."
00:10:51.55\00:10:53.08
And isn't the essential message
00:10:53.11\00:10:55.02
that you want to convey
to someone like that that
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if you're
really a servant leader
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in your family,
00:10:59.12\00:11:00.46
you won't have to
constantly one down everybody,
00:11:00.49\00:11:03.36
that so called, "under you."
00:11:03.39\00:11:04.96
They will want to submit to you.
00:11:04.99\00:11:07.13
There's a responsibility
on the leader of the home,
00:11:07.16\00:11:09.46
we're not against leadership,
neither is the Bible,
00:11:09.50\00:11:11.23
but there's a
responsibility on the leader,
00:11:11.27\00:11:13.17
"Fathers, provoke
not your children."
00:11:13.20\00:11:15.30
In other words, you are
to some degree responsible
00:11:15.34\00:11:17.17
for their response to you.
00:11:17.21\00:11:19.11
And the same thing
with husbands and wives.
00:11:19.14\00:11:21.31
You are to some
degree responsible
00:11:21.34\00:11:23.01
for whether that
woman is inclined
00:11:23.04\00:11:25.11
to want to submit to you or not.
00:11:25.15\00:11:26.65
You can't find one
verse in the Bible that says,
00:11:26.68\00:11:29.25
"Husbands, make
your wife submit."
00:11:29.28\00:11:30.79
It's not there.
00:11:30.82\00:11:32.15
You are to
enlist their submission
00:11:32.19\00:11:33.59
through being a
servant leadership,
00:11:33.62\00:11:35.42
a servant leader.
00:11:35.46\00:11:36.79
Yeah.
00:11:36.83\00:11:38.16
So there seems to be
here an absence of love.
00:11:38.19\00:11:41.93
How or what would you
say a family or church,
00:11:41.96\00:11:47.57
what could they do to reinsert
that environment, not love.
00:11:47.60\00:11:52.61
Well, the first thing we
need to do is what Paul said.
00:11:52.64\00:11:56.44
We need to think of
others better than us,
00:11:56.48\00:12:00.88
more important than us.
00:12:00.92\00:12:02.25
So focus off of
myself. That's right.
00:12:02.28\00:12:03.62
Okay.
00:12:03.65\00:12:04.99
Because when my desire is
to take care of your needs,
00:12:05.02\00:12:08.19
then all of a sudden,
what I want isn't as important.
00:12:08.22\00:12:11.09
And once I start doing that,
00:12:11.13\00:12:12.99
that's going to create a desire
in other people to do the same.
00:12:13.03\00:12:15.70
Amen.
00:12:15.73\00:12:17.07
But if I come to you and I say,
00:12:17.10\00:12:18.43
"This is what I want you to do,"
00:12:18.47\00:12:19.80
your first reaction
00:12:19.83\00:12:21.17
unless you are
beaten down is to say,
00:12:21.20\00:12:22.64
"And who do you think you are?"
00:12:22.67\00:12:24.01
Yeah.
00:12:24.04\00:12:25.37
And so that's already going
00:12:25.41\00:12:26.74
to create this
strife, this tension.
00:12:26.78\00:12:28.11
Yeah.
00:12:28.14\00:12:29.48
But if I come and say,
"How can I be of help?"
00:12:29.51\00:12:31.85
Well, so what's going on
in the part of the dictator?
00:12:31.88\00:12:33.98
Aren't they operating
00:12:34.02\00:12:35.35
on the exact opposite principle?
00:12:35.38\00:12:36.92
Correct.
00:12:36.95\00:12:38.29
And you kind of distilled that,
we were talking in the hall
00:12:38.32\00:12:39.92
and you kind of
distilled it down
00:12:39.95\00:12:41.29
to like pride being
basically the essential sin
00:12:41.32\00:12:44.43
and the sin that
turned Lucifer into Satan.
00:12:44.46\00:12:46.96
So could you unpack that, like,
that individual is operating on
00:12:47.00\00:12:51.57
the exact opposite
of the gospel principle
00:12:51.60\00:12:53.90
of serving others?
00:12:53.94\00:12:55.40
And how does
dictatorship serve the dictator?
00:12:55.44\00:12:58.51
Well, it gives that person
the control that they want.
00:12:58.54\00:13:01.84
Yeah.
00:13:01.88\00:13:03.21
What does control do for people?
00:13:03.24\00:13:04.58
I hate being in control,
people, it's exhausting.
00:13:04.61\00:13:06.38
Well, oftentimes,
00:13:06.41\00:13:07.75
it comes from a
background of inadequacy,
00:13:07.78\00:13:12.89
insecurity, and so these people
00:13:12.92\00:13:15.42
then want to overcome
that by subduing others.
00:13:15.46\00:13:19.46
I read a book, very
fascinating book called,"
00:13:19.49\00:13:21.50
Stalin: Breaker of Nations."
00:13:21.53\00:13:24.07
He was somebody
00:13:24.10\00:13:25.43
who starved
millions of his own farmers.
00:13:25.47\00:13:28.67
Incredible. His own people.
00:13:28.70\00:13:30.04
And he was a very,
00:13:30.07\00:13:31.41
very unimportant
child growing up,
00:13:31.44\00:13:34.51
mistreated by his family,
mistreated by his community.
00:13:34.54\00:13:37.58
But it seems when
people are compensating
00:13:37.61\00:13:40.08
for low self-esteem,
there's almost no limit
00:13:40.12\00:13:43.18
to how far that
compensation can go.
00:13:43.22\00:13:45.15
Once pride takes hold
and people start dealing
00:13:45.19\00:13:47.32
with their innate shame
by trying to be prideful,
00:13:47.36\00:13:50.66
it's like
there's no sealing on it.
00:13:50.69\00:13:52.03
That's right.
00:13:52.06\00:13:53.40
Like, people can
go to those lengths
00:13:53.43\00:13:54.76
where they killed
25 million people.
00:13:54.80\00:13:56.13
So there's a void and
they're trying to fill
00:13:56.16\00:13:57.90
that void with
control and power and abuse.
00:13:57.93\00:14:01.84
We could provide...
00:14:01.87\00:14:03.20
You were talking in last segment
00:14:03.24\00:14:04.57
about what we
can do as clinicians,
00:14:04.61\00:14:05.94
support someone
00:14:05.97\00:14:07.31
who has come to us in this form.
00:14:07.34\00:14:08.91
And I think the
key is relationships.
00:14:08.94\00:14:12.75
If we provide a safe space
00:14:12.78\00:14:14.35
to build and grow a
healthy trusting, loving,
00:14:14.38\00:14:18.69
similar to what you described
00:14:18.72\00:14:20.06
in your family,
then people can thrive.
00:14:20.09\00:14:22.79
But if there's
continual pounding on,
00:14:22.82\00:14:24.69
"You must do this,
00:14:24.73\00:14:26.06
you have to do
this, you cannot do this,"
00:14:26.09\00:14:28.06
then that depletes them.
00:14:28.10\00:14:29.43
Here's the tricky part though.
00:14:29.46\00:14:30.80
That's very valid what you said,
00:14:30.83\00:14:32.17
but the tricky part is
when you are actually...
00:14:32.20\00:14:34.74
narcissists never really
come to counseling anyway,
00:14:34.77\00:14:37.51
but if they did,
00:14:37.54\00:14:39.61
they take advantage of empathy,
00:14:39.64\00:14:41.64
so you try to build, or like,
00:14:41.68\00:14:43.01
if you are working
with a married couple
00:14:43.04\00:14:44.71
and one of them is a dictator,
00:14:44.75\00:14:47.05
you don't do
marriage counseling.
00:14:47.08\00:14:49.18
Marriage counselors will not see
00:14:49.22\00:14:50.55
if there's abuse
going on, or control going,
00:14:50.59\00:14:52.55
they won't see
the couple together.
00:14:52.59\00:14:54.06
They first work
with the dictator
00:14:54.09\00:14:55.92
and try to get them to
repudiate their approach
00:14:55.96\00:14:58.69
because he'll take
advantage of her empathy.
00:14:58.73\00:15:01.06
However, if you educate
the spouse about the behavior,
00:15:01.10\00:15:04.90
she can then gain
00:15:04.93\00:15:06.57
what she needs to
change her behavior,
00:15:06.60\00:15:09.20
and the dynamics
00:15:09.24\00:15:10.57
of the
relationship too can change.
00:15:10.61\00:15:11.94
And in a lot of times,
00:15:11.97\00:15:13.31
there's buy-in on
the part of the spouse
00:15:13.34\00:15:14.98
that is submitting to
the abuse and control,
00:15:15.01\00:15:17.45
there's enough buy-in to
where they don't really feel
00:15:17.48\00:15:18.98
they have the right
00:15:19.01\00:15:20.35
or they're getting
something of out of it,
00:15:20.38\00:15:21.72
and if you can
get her to the place
00:15:21.75\00:15:23.08
where she's willing...
00:15:23.12\00:15:24.45
And so that's, you
build the relationship
00:15:24.49\00:15:25.85
with the spouse so
you can educate her
00:15:25.89\00:15:27.82
and then she can then change.
00:15:27.86\00:15:29.56
Speaking of marriage, Jaime...
00:15:29.59\00:15:32.73
are you married? Yes.
00:15:32.76\00:15:35.76
You and your wife are
happily working together,
00:15:35.80\00:15:41.74
but yet at distanced
because you're travelling,
00:15:41.77\00:15:44.47
you are doing concerts.
00:15:44.51\00:15:46.07
She travels with you sometimes,
00:15:46.11\00:15:48.54
but tell us more
about your vision
00:15:48.58\00:15:51.45
to actually work
together together.
00:15:51.48\00:15:54.65
Well, we both had
been married before,
00:15:54.68\00:15:57.59
we both went through divorces,
00:15:57.62\00:15:58.95
and we both said
without ever meeting
00:15:58.99\00:16:01.16
that we would never
going to get married again.
00:16:01.19\00:16:04.43
Divorce is one
of the most painful
00:16:04.46\00:16:06.09
and destructive things
that I know on this earth
00:16:06.13\00:16:08.50
because of the
collateral damage,
00:16:08.53\00:16:12.03
the amount of people
that are affected by this.
00:16:12.07\00:16:14.60
But God brought us together,
00:16:14.64\00:16:16.71
and we want to make sure
that we always have a happy
00:16:16.74\00:16:21.78
and a healthy and a
thriving relationship,
00:16:21.81\00:16:24.61
and that means investing
time into the relationship.
00:16:24.65\00:16:27.58
Intentional time. Exactly right.
00:16:27.62\00:16:30.12
And so my goal is to
be home during the week.
00:16:30.15\00:16:35.36
When I was single,
00:16:35.39\00:16:36.73
and I was single
for a number of years,
00:16:36.76\00:16:38.63
I would be on the road
two, three, four, five,
00:16:38.66\00:16:40.13
six weeks in a row,
00:16:40.16\00:16:41.50
I would just go from
the next to the next place
00:16:41.53\00:16:43.50
because I didn't
have to come home.
00:16:43.53\00:16:45.13
But now I've cut
a lot of that out
00:16:45.17\00:16:46.70
and I've tried to bunch up
my concerts on the weekends
00:16:46.74\00:16:53.31
so that I start Friday
night and I end Sunday night,
00:16:53.34\00:16:55.98
and I would
typically do five concerts
00:16:56.01\00:16:57.68
during the weekend,
00:16:57.71\00:16:59.38
and then I can go home
and spend time with Rachelle.
00:16:59.41\00:17:01.62
I'm so glad to hear this
00:17:01.65\00:17:02.98
'cause I have to
admit, when I saw,
00:17:03.02\00:17:04.62
you know, you remarried,
00:17:04.65\00:17:05.99
and I knew how
hard worker you were.
00:17:06.02\00:17:08.66
I thought, "Do they
have any time together?"
00:17:08.69\00:17:11.33
I'm so glad to hear
00:17:11.36\00:17:12.69
that you're
being every intentional
00:17:12.73\00:17:14.06
about it and planning.
00:17:14.10\00:17:15.43
And we have wonderful
quality time together,
00:17:15.46\00:17:18.17
and I tell people
who do know us well,
00:17:18.20\00:17:20.64
"Don't worry,"
you know, last year,
00:17:20.67\00:17:22.64
when I got
invited to go to Taiwan
00:17:22.67\00:17:24.24
to do a week of
prayer, she went with me.
00:17:24.27\00:17:26.47
So were together
for nearly two weeks.
00:17:26.51\00:17:29.21
Our upcoming trip to
Israel is almost two weeks,
00:17:29.24\00:17:33.35
she's with me.
00:17:33.38\00:17:34.72
So on this
bigger and longer trips
00:17:34.75\00:17:36.48
and exotic places
and that kind of things,
00:17:36.52\00:17:38.85
she comes, so we
can experience all that,
00:17:38.89\00:17:40.86
you know, together.
00:17:40.89\00:17:42.22
Yeah, where she wants to come.
Have some more together there.
00:17:42.26\00:17:43.59
Absolutely. Beautiful.
00:17:43.63\00:17:44.96
Then during the week,
00:17:44.99\00:17:46.33
we always have at
least one date night
00:17:46.36\00:17:49.10
which means that
I am not known or...
00:17:49.13\00:17:53.84
Not even heard?
00:17:53.87\00:17:55.20
Out there in my community
00:17:55.24\00:17:56.57
because I come home
to spend time with my,
00:17:56.60\00:17:58.74
you know, wife and
family, and nurture that
00:17:58.77\00:18:02.34
'cause I don't have time
to go out and get together
00:18:02.38\00:18:03.91
with my buddies very often.
00:18:03.95\00:18:05.28
So you go out for
froyo, right? Yes.
00:18:05.31\00:18:06.95
So what's it called?
Mixed Up Cup Mixed Up Cup.
00:18:06.98\00:18:10.25
So tell us just a
little bit about that.
00:18:10.29\00:18:12.45
She runs this little eatery.
You know, I have to tell you.
00:18:12.49\00:18:15.69
I went out to eat
in that neighborhood
00:18:15.72\00:18:17.66
and then we went
there for dessert,
00:18:17.69\00:18:19.03
and when I got
there, I was like,
00:18:19.06\00:18:20.40
"I should have eaten here.
00:18:20.43\00:18:21.76
This is amazing."
00:18:21.80\00:18:23.13
You have wraps,
you have sandwiches.
00:18:23.16\00:18:24.50
You have so many choices.
00:18:24.53\00:18:25.87
And her goal is
healthy and organic food,
00:18:25.90\00:18:29.64
and so it's not just
food that tastes good
00:18:29.67\00:18:32.07
'cause oftentimes
00:18:32.11\00:18:33.44
we associate
healthy food with...
00:18:33.48\00:18:35.61
Vegan. Not so tasty food.
00:18:35.64\00:18:37.01
Exactly right. Oh, yeah.
00:18:37.05\00:18:38.38
But she, having been a chef,
makes this food that is healthy
00:18:38.41\00:18:43.25
and is very, very tasty,
and with a lot of desire.
00:18:43.28\00:18:44.62
I'm definitely hitting
that place up when I'm back.
00:18:44.65\00:18:46.65
I'm telling you I am.
Now where is this place?
00:18:46.69\00:18:48.02
In the Chattanooga
area where we live.
00:18:48.06\00:18:49.52
Oh, I'm in Wisconsin. Yeah.
00:18:49.56\00:18:51.93
And you don't want froyo anyway,
00:18:51.96\00:18:53.29
you're freezing.
00:18:53.33\00:18:54.66
Cold already.
00:18:54.70\00:18:56.03
So can you talk to us
00:18:56.06\00:18:57.40
about how growing
up under a dictatorship
00:18:57.43\00:19:00.87
has affected your
view of American life
00:19:00.90\00:19:04.87
and in particular, politics.
00:19:04.91\00:19:06.34
If you can, you
know, just touch on that.
00:19:06.37\00:19:07.71
We don't want
to alienate anyone,
00:19:07.74\00:19:09.74
but I've just noticed
00:19:09.78\00:19:11.11
in some of your Twitter comments
00:19:11.15\00:19:12.48
that you value
capitalism, you value freedom,
00:19:12.51\00:19:17.95
you are a little suspicious
of some of the far left,
00:19:17.99\00:19:21.22
which a lot of people
are fearful of the far right,
00:19:21.26\00:19:24.33
particularly, young people,
00:19:24.36\00:19:25.69
they don't realize that
there's just a militant movement
00:19:25.73\00:19:27.60
on the left, I feel.
00:19:27.63\00:19:29.33
So you seem to have
your antenna for that
00:19:29.36\00:19:32.33
and it seems to me
because you grew up
00:19:32.37\00:19:34.84
under a far left
communist regime,
00:19:34.87\00:19:38.07
you know?
00:19:38.11\00:19:39.71
Well, any time
you get into extremes,
00:19:39.74\00:19:42.48
you have a problem.
00:19:42.51\00:19:43.85
What did Jesus say,
00:19:43.88\00:19:45.21
and if we would
just follow that,
00:19:45.25\00:19:46.58
we would be in so
much better shape.
00:19:46.61\00:19:47.95
Amen. He said,
"Stay in the middle."
00:19:47.98\00:19:49.32
Yeah.
00:19:49.35\00:19:50.69
And so we have these tendencies
to go off into these areas,
00:19:50.72\00:19:54.09
and that's what
brings us problem,
00:19:54.12\00:19:55.46
and that's what
brings us division.
00:19:55.49\00:19:56.83
But let me clarify,
00:19:56.86\00:19:58.19
and this is getting
a little philosophical,
00:19:58.23\00:19:59.56
but it's the middle
of two biblical truths.
00:19:59.59\00:20:00.93
It's not like
that person's truth,
00:20:00.96\00:20:02.40
and that's person's...
00:20:02.43\00:20:03.77
I'm just going go in the middle.
00:20:03.80\00:20:05.13
It's not middle
of the road per se.
00:20:05.17\00:20:07.04
That would be Syncretism,
just speaking philosophically.
00:20:07.07\00:20:09.77
But we want the middle
of two biblical truths,
00:20:09.80\00:20:12.47
and the Bible presents a form
00:20:12.51\00:20:15.01
of government in
the Old Testament
00:20:15.04\00:20:16.71
that is of really a
great blend of the freedoms,
00:20:16.75\00:20:19.88
of free enterprise
00:20:19.91\00:20:21.25
that you would
find in capitalism,
00:20:21.28\00:20:22.62
but also some social
programs that you would find
00:20:22.65\00:20:25.72
in a more
socialistic government,
00:20:25.75\00:20:27.22
and it's kind of a
blend of those things,
00:20:27.26\00:20:28.59
like the ability to glean
on the part of poor people,
00:20:28.62\00:20:30.56
the glean fields, the
Jubilee, like you said,
00:20:30.59\00:20:33.23
it was the reset
button on the economy.
00:20:33.26\00:20:35.33
So you and I talked
00:20:35.36\00:20:36.70
about capitalistic
greed getting out of control,
00:20:36.73\00:20:39.63
and that's a bad thing too.
00:20:39.67\00:20:41.00
So you are pro-capitalism,
the freedom of capitalism
00:20:41.04\00:20:43.51
because you know that freedom
is essential to development.
00:20:43.54\00:20:46.44
And that's what I'm
talking about in the extremes
00:20:46.47\00:20:48.44
because you can
have extreme capitalism
00:20:48.48\00:20:50.68
which hurts people
00:20:50.71\00:20:52.08
and then you can have
extreme government control
00:20:52.11\00:20:54.48
which is ideally
and originally supposed
00:20:54.52\00:20:57.65
to level the
playing field for everybody,
00:20:57.69\00:21:00.56
but what happens is,
as government or church
00:21:00.59\00:21:04.03
or any organization starts
getting more and more control,
00:21:04.06\00:21:07.63
they give up less and less of it
00:21:07.66\00:21:09.50
and they take
more and more of it.
00:21:09.53\00:21:11.80
And that is my
concerns in any situation.
00:21:11.83\00:21:14.20
So how should a
church, for instance,
00:21:14.24\00:21:15.80
balance authority and freedom?
00:21:15.84\00:21:19.44
Like, we don't
want to completely...
00:21:19.47\00:21:21.21
we don't want the
world church leadership
00:21:21.24\00:21:23.45
to completely lose authority.
00:21:23.48\00:21:24.81
Right.
00:21:24.85\00:21:26.18
We have guidelines
that are in the Word of God,
00:21:26.21\00:21:28.18
and that's a
great place to start.
00:21:28.22\00:21:30.42
And the Bible does
say there are mechanisms.
00:21:30.45\00:21:34.92
When you have a problem,
you talk to your brother,
00:21:34.96\00:21:36.89
then you go to others.
00:21:36.93\00:21:38.43
And so God has established
00:21:38.46\00:21:41.70
very, very successful
ways of dealing with things.
00:21:41.73\00:21:45.20
Any time you have
a head of the church
00:21:45.23\00:21:48.00
that just thinks that
this is how it has to be done
00:21:48.04\00:21:50.77
and there's no discussion
00:21:50.81\00:21:52.14
and there's no coming to
an agreement on something,
00:21:52.17\00:21:57.25
just like in a home.
00:21:57.28\00:21:59.28
I grew in a very
patriarchal society,
00:21:59.31\00:22:01.95
and so, at home,
00:22:01.98\00:22:03.59
even though I had a loving home,
00:22:03.62\00:22:05.25
and in most
Hispanic and Latin homes,
00:22:05.29\00:22:07.72
whatever the man says, it goes.
00:22:07.76\00:22:09.86
And I remember,
when we got here,
00:22:09.89\00:22:11.29
my dad would say to my mom,
00:22:11.33\00:22:12.79
"Hey, I'm thinking
about buying this car."
00:22:12.83\00:22:14.66
And my mom would say,
"Oh, that's not a good idea."
00:22:14.70\00:22:17.73
She had no scientific
proof, she had no information,
00:22:17.77\00:22:22.60
it was just that sixth sense.
00:22:22.64\00:22:24.34
That women have. Exactly right.
00:22:24.37\00:22:26.14
And you know what? My
dad didn't pay attention.
00:22:26.17\00:22:28.34
He bought the car,
and the car was a lemon.
00:22:28.38\00:22:31.51
And I can't tell you how
many times that happened.
00:22:31.55\00:22:34.32
Did she mock him for it?
00:22:34.35\00:22:35.68
Or did she...
00:22:35.72\00:22:37.05
I don't know
about mocking, but...
00:22:37.09\00:22:38.42
Well, just so he
learned. Yeah, hopefully.
00:22:38.45\00:22:41.89
So when you say church,
00:22:41.92\00:22:45.59
you are including
even a local church,
00:22:45.63\00:22:47.43
you know, not just...
00:22:47.46\00:22:48.80
Certainly. Certainly.
00:22:48.83\00:22:50.33
I went to churches
00:22:50.37\00:22:51.70
'cause I do
concerts in many different
00:22:51.73\00:22:53.07
denominations in churches.
00:22:53.10\00:22:54.44
I've been to churches
00:22:54.47\00:22:55.80
where the pastor
is like, you know...
00:22:55.84\00:22:57.71
A dictator.
00:22:57.74\00:22:59.07
The representative of God, yeah.
00:22:59.11\00:23:00.44
And whatever the
pastor says, it's done,
00:23:00.48\00:23:03.55
and nobody questions it.
00:23:03.58\00:23:05.38
I think that's a problem.
00:23:05.41\00:23:06.75
You would call
that authoritarianism.
00:23:06.78\00:23:08.38
Mm-hmm? Yeah.
00:23:08.42\00:23:09.75
Are you ever approached
before a concert and told
00:23:09.78\00:23:13.02
or, I should say,
00:23:13.05\00:23:14.52
requested not to
do certain pieces
00:23:14.56\00:23:17.23
because of
certain styles or types.
00:23:17.26\00:23:18.79
Well, he does all
hymns. So he's really safe.
00:23:18.83\00:23:20.86
Yeah, most certainly.
00:23:20.90\00:23:22.23
I've been...
00:23:22.26\00:23:23.60
Oh, you can do
hymns in different styles,
00:23:23.63\00:23:25.47
but have you ever been
requested not to do certain...
00:23:25.50\00:23:26.90
Many times. Really?
00:23:26.94\00:23:29.00
Many times, I've been told,
"If you come to our church,
00:23:29.04\00:23:32.97
you can't have a ponytail."
00:23:33.01\00:23:34.61
Oh, so you put it up in
a bun when they say that.
00:23:34.64\00:23:38.48
You wore a cap? Do the
Japanese samurai thing.
00:23:38.51\00:23:40.15
What do you do for your
hair? Sometimes I cut my hair.
00:23:40.18\00:23:42.25
Sometimes I
said, "You know what?
00:23:42.28\00:23:44.75
If that is the
criteria for having me,
00:23:44.79\00:23:46.12
I'm not coming to your church.
00:23:46.15\00:23:47.49
If that's what
you're focusing on,
00:23:47.52\00:23:48.86
I think you're
focusing on the wrong thing."
00:23:48.89\00:23:50.59
It all depends on the approach.
00:23:50.63\00:23:52.29
I've had
churches that said to me,
00:23:52.33\00:23:53.96
"You know, we are a
little bit more contemporary.
00:23:54.00\00:23:56.63
Could you play
more contemporary music
00:23:56.67\00:23:58.07
because our congregation
doesn't know the old hymns."
00:23:58.10\00:24:00.27
Or, "Would you play,
00:24:00.30\00:24:01.64
we're a little
more traditional?"
00:24:01.67\00:24:03.00
And so I'm happy to oblige,
00:24:03.04\00:24:04.37
but if you are going to
make that a focal issue,
00:24:04.41\00:24:07.68
then all of a sudden,
00:24:07.71\00:24:09.04
I'm not really there to
do what I'm supposed to do.
00:24:09.08\00:24:11.11
You are not a person anymore.
00:24:11.15\00:24:12.48
I'm just there to
please your parameters.
00:24:12.51\00:24:13.85
You are not an
individual anymore.
00:24:13.88\00:24:15.22
You are part of the
system. Exactly right.
00:24:15.25\00:24:16.65
And I don't want to be.
00:24:16.69\00:24:18.02
You said that, you know,
authoritarianism entails,
00:24:18.05\00:24:20.59
you know, never
discussing anything.
00:24:20.62\00:24:22.22
Now certainly you can't
discuss with a three-year old
00:24:22.26\00:24:24.43
whether they should eat
the cigarette butt or not.
00:24:24.46\00:24:26.33
So there's a place for
just saying, "You can't."
00:24:26.36\00:24:28.46
That's correct.
00:24:28.50\00:24:29.83
So how, if you had children,
which I know you don't,
00:24:29.86\00:24:31.70
but how would you deal
with situations like that?
00:24:31.73\00:24:33.94
And if you were a
pastor of a congregation
00:24:33.97\00:24:35.97
and there was,
genuine, like, heresy
00:24:36.00\00:24:38.47
or problems in the congregation,
00:24:38.51\00:24:40.01
would there be a place
for exercising authority?
00:24:40.04\00:24:43.18
There certainly is,
00:24:43.21\00:24:44.55
and I remember times
when my dad said to me,
00:24:44.58\00:24:48.28
"You are going to
practice the violin,"
00:24:48.32\00:24:50.49
and I said to my mom and my dad,
00:24:50.52\00:24:52.25
"I don't want to
practice anymore."
00:24:52.29\00:24:54.19
You know, and they would say,
00:24:54.22\00:24:56.39
"Well, God has
given you this talent.
00:24:56.42\00:24:58.46
When you are old enough
00:24:58.49\00:24:59.83
to make those
kinds of decisions,
00:24:59.86\00:25:01.66
then you can
make that decision."
00:25:01.70\00:25:03.80
Like, famously, I
always quote my mom saying,
00:25:03.83\00:25:06.13
"As long as you
live in my house,
00:25:06.17\00:25:08.00
you are going to
practice the violin."
00:25:08.04\00:25:09.37
And now you are so grateful
that those were the realities.
00:25:09.40\00:25:11.74
Exactly right.
00:25:11.77\00:25:13.11
And that's a biblical principle.
00:25:13.14\00:25:14.48
And I see so many
young people who've grown up,
00:25:14.51\00:25:15.84
and come and tell me,
00:25:15.88\00:25:17.21
"I wish I
would've stuck with it.
00:25:17.25\00:25:18.58
I wish I would've
listened to my parents."
00:25:18.61\00:25:19.95
I'm one right here
00:25:19.98\00:25:21.32
because my parents
didn't pressure me,
00:25:21.35\00:25:22.68
and I played piano by
ear, but I never learned notes,
00:25:22.72\00:25:24.99
and I would've been
a much better player
00:25:25.02\00:25:27.09
if I had stuck with it.
00:25:27.12\00:25:28.46
So there is a good
place for authority.
00:25:28.49\00:25:30.33
It needs to be God,
Spirit-led authority,
00:25:30.36\00:25:34.23
and that's the
difference, not just my whim,
00:25:34.26\00:25:36.90
or just because I
say so, it's going to go.
00:25:36.93\00:25:39.77
But also always upholding
00:25:39.80\00:25:41.90
the sense of
freedom of conscience.
00:25:41.94\00:25:44.37
I mean, as
Seventh-day Adventists,
00:25:44.41\00:25:45.74
isn't that at our core?
00:25:45.77\00:25:47.11
A freedom of choice.
00:25:47.14\00:25:48.48
Core of our believes
is freedom of conscience.
00:25:48.51\00:25:50.95
So what you do
00:25:50.98\00:25:52.31
as an authority
figure is you say,
00:25:52.35\00:25:54.08
"I'm not telling you what to do,
00:25:54.12\00:25:55.52
but I'm telling
you what will happen
00:25:55.55\00:25:57.05
if you do this or this."
00:25:57.09\00:25:58.42
That's key.
00:25:58.45\00:25:59.79
And as a parent,
00:25:59.82\00:26:01.16
I work with
parents to teach them
00:26:01.19\00:26:02.52
as choice-based
parenting, where you say,
00:26:02.56\00:26:04.49
"Look, I'm not going
to tell you what to do.
00:26:04.53\00:26:05.86
You've got to
make your own choice.
00:26:05.89\00:26:07.23
But I will tell
you, if you do that,
00:26:07.26\00:26:09.33
you can't use the
car this weekend."
00:26:09.36\00:26:11.03
Or, "You are going to
lose your allowances,"
00:26:11.07\00:26:12.53
or whatever the
consequences are.
00:26:12.57\00:26:13.90
And there's a
world of difference.
00:26:13.94\00:26:15.64
It's
essentially what Joshua did.
00:26:15.67\00:26:17.14
Here's Mount Ebal,
00:26:17.17\00:26:18.51
Mount Gerizim,
here're the blessings,
00:26:18.54\00:26:19.87
here're the
curses, now you choose.
00:26:19.91\00:26:21.74
But choose the
right thing. Right.
00:26:21.78\00:26:23.91
Well, the Bible
says, "Count the costs."
00:26:23.95\00:26:25.61
Yeah, exactly. "Weigh it out."
00:26:25.65\00:26:27.52
I have a three-year
old and a six-year old,
00:26:27.55\00:26:29.15
and a lot of times we
are trying to teach them
00:26:29.18\00:26:31.29
to count the costs.
00:26:31.32\00:26:33.76
What God did in
the Garden of Eden?
00:26:33.79\00:26:35.39
You know, he gave
them freedom of choice,
00:26:35.42\00:26:37.89
and he shared
with them very lovingly
00:26:37.93\00:26:39.96
what the outcome
could potentially be.
00:26:40.00\00:26:42.83
They made that
choice, and yet he came
00:26:42.86\00:26:45.07
behind that choice and
still offered them love.
00:26:45.10\00:26:47.34
He said, "I'm going to send
00:26:47.37\00:26:48.70
my Son to die
for you to save you."
00:26:48.74\00:26:50.07
Praise the Lord. Amen.
00:26:50.11\00:26:51.44
You know what?
00:26:51.47\00:26:52.81
In other words,
you are free to choose,
00:26:52.84\00:26:54.18
but you are not free
to choose the outcome
00:26:54.21\00:26:55.54
because there's
cause and effect,
00:26:55.58\00:26:56.91
and you make certain
choices and the effect is going
00:26:56.95\00:26:58.28
to naturally
come with that choice.
00:26:58.31\00:26:59.88
That's why God will
still come by our side
00:26:59.91\00:27:01.25
to try to assist and help us,
00:27:01.28\00:27:03.12
to lovingly get
back on the right track.
00:27:03.15\00:27:05.32
Amen.
00:27:05.35\00:27:06.69
And this is such an
important point to end on
00:27:06.72\00:27:08.89
because Jesus said,
00:27:08.92\00:27:10.26
"If the Son has made you
free, you'll be free indeed."
00:27:10.29\00:27:14.40
God's kind of leadership,
00:27:14.43\00:27:15.80
even though he is
vested with authority,
00:27:15.83\00:27:18.43
is of leadership
that grants freedom
00:27:18.47\00:27:20.77
and creates an
environment of freedom
00:27:20.80\00:27:23.87
in which people can
actually experience love for Him
00:27:23.91\00:27:27.58
and for one and another.
00:27:27.61\00:27:29.04
There couldn't be
a sharper contrast
00:27:29.08\00:27:30.75
between God's way of leading
and a dictator's way of leading
00:27:30.78\00:27:34.48
because that's really
Satan's way of leading,
00:27:34.52\00:27:36.15
it's controlling
people and preventing love
00:27:36.18\00:27:38.95
in the process of control.
00:27:38.99\00:27:40.59
It's been such a blessing
to unpack all these things.
00:27:40.62\00:27:42.89
I wish we had many more segments
00:27:42.92\00:27:44.86
to be able to do this,
00:27:44.89\00:27:46.23
but may God bless you
as you contemplate this.
00:27:46.26\00:27:48.76
"If the Son has made you
free, you will be free indeed."
00:27:48.80\00:27:52.37
Amen.
00:27:52.40\00:27:53.74
Join us next time for A
Multitude of Counselors.
00:27:53.77\00:27:56.44