Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors
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where we view our
stories in the context
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of the grand
narrative of God's story
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and boy! do we
have a story today
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titled: Leaving Legalism...
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Leaving Legalism...
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you know, Legalism
isn't an official diagnosis
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but it is a problem
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and it's very interesting to me
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that it shares
some features with
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Obsessive
Compulsive Personality Disorder
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which is characterized by
rigidity in matters of morality,
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it also shares
some characteristics
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with Obsessive
Compulsive Disorder
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which is a different disorder
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which is characterized
by meaningless rituals
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for the purpose of
controlling anxiety
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and it's interesting to me
that "Obsessive Compulsive"
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and "Old Covenant"
have the same initials...
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just making that observation
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but the term for this
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even though it's not
an official diagnosis...
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the religious form of
OCD is called "Scrupulosity"
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Scrupulosity...
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however, in the
diagnostical manual of God...
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legalism is a big
problem... it's an illness...
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it's a spiritual problem...
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and so on and so forth...
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you know, legalism
differs from obedience
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in that... the legalist believes
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that their obedience
has merit before God...
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that human merit features
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what distinguishes
legalism from obedience.
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A lot of times,
a legalistic person
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and an obedient person
look the same on the outside
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but there's that motivational
spring that really differs
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however, I'll add this
very quickly and that is that...
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once a person with
legalism gets a taste
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of feeling
meritorious before God,
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they start to
manufacture standards...
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and often this can lead
them headlong into fanaticism...
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so let's talk about the
prevalence of legalism...
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it's pretty universal
really, if you think about it,
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the original
pair... Adam and Eve...
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first thing they did
when they fell into sin
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was... they
manufactured fig leaves...
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symbolizing self-righteousness.
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We're all inclined... I
think in our default state
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to try to manufacture a
sense of merit before God
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and we often have
to learn the hard way
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in our religious experience
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that this is a
futile... a futile endeavor...
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Any religion that has
lost its focus on Jesus Christ
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seems to breed legalism
like rabbits in my observation
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so what about the
treatment for legalism?
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What Jesus gave His
prognosis and treatment
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in Revelation
chapter 3 and verse 18,
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He said, "I
counsel you to buy from me
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gold refined in the fire...
" which symbolizes love...
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"so that you can become
rich; white clothes to wear... "
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which symbolizes the
righteousness of Jesus...
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not your
righteousness but His...
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so that you can cover
your shameful nakedness
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"and salve to put on your
eyes so that you can see... "
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we need to see
ourselves as we are and realize
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how desperately in need of
God's righteousness and love
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we really are...
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so, our story today is going to
be told by Rachel Williams-Smith
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I read her book so I
got a sneak preview...
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it was an awesome
book... I'm so glad you're here,
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she's going to tell us
how this problem of legalism
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kind of manifested itself
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from the time she
was very, very young
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so, welcome to our
Program, so glad you could come
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and I also want to
welcome our Panel of Counselors
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David Guerrero,
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Biblical
Counselor from Wisconsin,
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Christina Cecotto,
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Licensed Professional
Counselor from Georgia
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and Dr. Jean Wright from
my hometown of Philadelphia,
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I'm so glad that
you guys are here
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and we're going to
talk about Legalism today,
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this is going to be interesting.
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So, start us at
the very beginning...
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where did you grow up, girl?
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I mean, I know already
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but I'm asking for the benefit
of everyone else... yeah...
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My legalism began in
the context of a child...
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growing up in the family,
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we were actually
living in Huntsville, Alabama
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and it started out with
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trying to follow
everything that's written
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and it got coupled with...
kind of spiritual imbalance
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which leads to
extremism... so, my story is...
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the story of many
people with legalism
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but with an extreme flare to it.
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It was an extreme
story, I have to admit...
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I felt like I walked with you
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through those years
of living in this cabin
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and... where was it again...?
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Rachel: We ended
up in Tennessee...
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yeah, 50 acres in Tennessee.
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It started out
at six-years-old...
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just... my parents
were trying to do everything
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and it's... most
people don't have the...
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I want to say
almost... "the courage"
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to follow everything,
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usually there are
limits... confines of family
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and social norms and things
that will hold people in check
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so it may be in their
heads ideologically...
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they may think a certain way
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but often the
lifestyle doesn't follow
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but...
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Jennifer: So they are to be
commended for their courage.
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Rachel: Yes,
that's what I'm saying.
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Jennifer: And commitment...
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Rachel: Most people
don't just go all the way
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with what they believe
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and my parents really
tried to do everything.
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Jennifer: So, give us a picture
of what that looked like.
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Rachel: Well, it started when I
was about six... five or six...
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first wearing long dresses...
that was the first thing...
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and then changing our diet,
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going from
vegetarian to totally vegan...
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these are nothing... there's
nothing wrong with this...
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with the... you know...
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Jennifer: There
are some good things...
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in fact all of the
things you described.
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Rachel: Right, exactly, they
were trying to do some things
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that they really felt was right
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and then, the next thing was
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kind of... beginning to
separate from the church
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because it's too worldly
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and then the Church
School was too worldly...
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my brothers were going there,
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I hadn't started yet
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so right about the time I
was supposed to start school,
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my parents decided they
were taking my brothers out
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and they weren't
going to let me start school
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and separate us from
these worldly influences.
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I noticed that separation
always seems to come into play
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with legalism... where you start
withdrawing from other people
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that are not quite right
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so that could be a factor
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and then, the
authorities got involved
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so... because
they were going to...
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yeah, someone reported us...
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Jennifer: Oh, for
not attending school...
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Rachel: Right, so, that led
to kind of fleeing from the Law,
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living in buses, a State Park...
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and then, finally,
buying 50 acres in Tennessee
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upon a hill, in a
very isolated location
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where there was no
electricity and running water
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indoor plumbing...
that kind of thing available
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no telephones,
television, telephones...
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and by that time, I
was about nine-years old...
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and I have... I
actually have a picture of me
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in my bonnet and long dress...
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by this time, I was wearing
was bonnet and long dress
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from the time I was eight
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and so, that was part of...
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and then, it was
a matter of training
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so we wanted to
have everything right.
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We had one-hour
worships three times a day
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as in three
one-hour worships because...
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we're actually supposed to
be praying without ceasing,
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we're supposed to be
seeking God constantly but...
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you know, Daniel
prayed three times a day,
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and Ellen White talks
about the hour of worship
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so we had three
one-hour worships
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that wasn't enough...
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we also had a lot
of strict training...
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memorization of Scripture
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and then we had times we
could go out and practice
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what we had learned or
see it demonstrated before us
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so we would go on... kind
of like, "recruitment trips"
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because you'll be surprised
at people that are interested
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in folks that are different
and we'll be on the edge...
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people are always looking
for something that's all out...
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kind of... extreme...
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like, something that
they can gravitate toward
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especially if they are a little
unbalanced in their own life
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or looking for something more
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so, we would go and look for
people that were of the faith...
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you know, never
on the outside...
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you always
recruit from the church...
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and drag them out of the church
into this kind of extremism
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that's what happened
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but we would go
and just by showing up
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with our long
dresses... our bonnets
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people would... we
would draw attention
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and one thing
that often happened
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and we believed... Ellen White
says that you should bow...
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get on your knees...
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you should be on your
knees for every prayer
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that's the way we
interpreted that...
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and so... we... it didn't
matter where we were seated...
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if we got seated in the
front row of the church...
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we were going to
kneel for every prayer...
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and just... you can
imagine a whole line of people
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with bonnets and long dresses...
getting up and kneeling
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for prayer and then
sitting back down...
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Jennifer: So you only went
to the churches to recruit...
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you weren't going to fellowship.
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Rachel: No... and this was only
maybe a couple of times a year,
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we'd do that...
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back on the...
kind of legalism...
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where we were
trying to do everything
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I remember one time
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we went to a camp
meeting the first weekend
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and a lady saw us and
she was sympathetic toward us
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and she invited us to come back
to her home the second weekend
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she wanted to
prepare a meal for us
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so that... just so we could
fellowship with her and stuff...
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she was just trying to reach out
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and we told her that we'll come
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but we're going to
bring our own food...
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because you can never
prepare a meal that we would eat
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and she didn't
believe us so she...
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she got the basic
information about us
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and she went out of her way...
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so we came back the
following Sabbath...
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brought our
food... and she was like,
00:08:59.73\00:09:02.04
"But I fixed things
that you could eat... "
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and we... I
literally watched this unfold,
00:09:04.57\00:09:07.21
it was like... "We
can't eat the food... "
00:09:07.24\00:09:09.48
"Why?"
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"Well, first of all...
what kind of oil or margarine
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or whatever did you use?"
00:09:13.25\00:09:14.58
Well, she used
margarine and a few things...
00:09:14.62\00:09:15.95
oil and a few things...
00:09:15.98\00:09:17.32
and we were able to tell
her, "Well, it's not olive oil
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or corn oil...
you used canola...
00:09:21.42\00:09:23.79
you used these other things... "
00:09:23.83\00:09:26.13
it was supposed to be either
olive oil or safflower oil...
00:09:26.16\00:09:28.10
you can use that...
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that just about
eliminated everything cooked
00:09:29.80\00:09:31.73
and she was like,
00:09:31.77\00:09:33.10
"Well, if I hadn't used oil,
00:09:33.13\00:09:34.60
then what else could
you eat in the food?"
00:09:34.64\00:09:37.21
"Well, no there's
still a problem. "
00:09:37.24\00:09:38.57
"Why?"
00:09:38.61\00:09:39.94
"What kind of salt did you use?"
00:09:39.97\00:09:41.64
"Salt...? What! I used salt... "
00:09:41.68\00:09:43.91
We're talking
about legalism here
00:09:43.95\00:09:45.78
and taken to an extreme...
00:09:45.81\00:09:47.15
you can get like this...
00:09:47.18\00:09:48.52
where you see the
focus is on all the details
00:09:48.55\00:09:50.45
"What kind of salt did you use?"
00:09:50.49\00:09:52.05
Sure enough, it was regular
Morton salt in the container...
00:09:52.09\00:09:54.99
we started telling her about
00:09:55.02\00:09:56.36
how rock salt is not the
type of salt you need to use,
00:09:56.39\00:09:59.16
it should be
sea salt... right...
00:09:59.19\00:10:00.73
so... and then... well...
"What if I hadn't used that...
00:10:00.76\00:10:03.90
what if I had used sea salt...
00:10:03.93\00:10:05.27
could you have eaten the food?"
"No, I don't think so... "
00:10:05.30\00:10:06.70
"Why?"
00:10:06.74\00:10:08.07
"Well, what kind of
water did you cook it in?"
00:10:08.10\00:10:09.90
Laughter...
00:10:09.97\00:10:11.31
And, sure enough,
it was tap water...
00:10:11.34\00:10:13.94
David: "And did you wash
your hand before you...?"
00:10:13.98\00:10:15.61
Rachel: Well, you know,
we could just keep going...
00:10:15.64\00:10:17.25
and sure enough,
we had our charts...
00:10:17.28\00:10:19.11
we had all this... I
mean, I'm talking about
00:10:19.15\00:10:21.52
lettered out... we
could show the chart...
00:10:21.58\00:10:23.69
the verse... the
reference... wherever...
00:10:23.75\00:10:25.69
about what was in the water
00:10:25.72\00:10:27.96
and the reason why you shouldn't
do it from other sources
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about why this water
was damaging for us...
00:10:30.36\00:10:33.09
it should be spring water...
00:10:33.13\00:10:34.46
"so we can't eat it... "
00:10:34.50\00:10:35.83
"Okay, so if I had
gotten all that right,
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then could you
have eaten the food?"
00:10:37.23\00:10:38.57
"No... "
00:10:38.60\00:10:39.93
"Why?"
00:10:39.97\00:10:41.30
"Because, what kind of
pots did you cook it in?"
00:10:41.34\00:10:42.67
Jennifer: Oh!
00:10:42.70\00:10:44.04
Jean: So there
was no consideration
00:10:44.07\00:10:45.41
for the feelings of the lady
that had tried to accommodate
00:10:45.44\00:10:50.88
and host and show love
to you and your family...
00:10:51.25\00:10:55.15
there was no
consideration for that... "
00:10:55.18\00:10:56.52
Jennifer: That didn't matter.
00:10:56.55\00:10:57.89
David: It does
not... in view of the...
00:10:57.92\00:10:59.25
Rachel: We said, "We
appreciate the efforts
00:10:59.29\00:11:00.62
but that's why we
brought our own food... "
00:11:00.66\00:11:01.99
and at that time... I remember
feeling a certain shame...
00:11:02.02\00:11:04.99
I was about 15...
00:11:05.03\00:11:06.36
and by that time I'd
accepted Jesus as my own Savior
00:11:06.39\00:11:10.07
but my understanding was
still encased in the legalism
00:11:10.10\00:11:13.80
and so, I felt shame
but I remembered thinking,
00:11:13.84\00:11:17.04
"Wide is the gate,
and broad is the way,
00:11:17.07\00:11:19.27
that leads to destruction,
00:11:19.34\00:11:20.68
and many are be
that go in thereat... "
00:11:20.71\00:11:22.34
so, "Narrow is the
gate and strait is the way
00:11:22.38\00:11:24.61
that leads to life, and
few there be that find it. "
00:11:24.65\00:11:26.85
And I remember thinking,
00:11:26.88\00:11:28.22
"Yeah, I guess it's because
we're doing the right thing
00:11:28.25\00:11:29.82
and very few are
following us... "
00:11:29.85\00:11:31.19
but I remember thinking,
00:11:31.22\00:11:32.62
"Wow! it is such a very,
very narrow few... " yeah...
00:11:32.65\00:11:36.99
David: What you're
bringing is very powerful...
00:11:37.03\00:11:39.29
and I say that because
like, I've been there before...
00:11:39.36\00:11:42.33
where you think you're
right and then you say,
00:11:42.36\00:11:46.03
"No, I know I'm right... "
00:11:46.07\00:11:47.40
but the Spirit is
working on your heart
00:11:47.44\00:11:48.84
and the Spirit is saying,
"No you're not right... "
00:11:48.87\00:11:50.21
Rachel: Exactly,
something is not right.
00:11:50.24\00:11:52.04
Jennifer: But there's a conflict
00:11:52.07\00:11:53.41
she doesn't have enough
information at this point
00:11:53.44\00:11:55.14
to be able to make
the appropriate choice...
00:11:55.18\00:11:56.75
because the Spirit is
still prompting you...
00:11:56.78\00:11:58.28
David: The Holy Spirit is
nudging you and prompting you
00:11:58.31\00:12:00.08
and helping you to
see there needs to...
00:12:00.12\00:12:02.65
a change needs to take place...
00:12:02.68\00:12:04.02
Jennifer: I'm just curious...
00:12:04.05\00:12:05.39
you guys as
mental health providers,
00:12:05.42\00:12:06.76
what do you see in this...
take away the water and the oil
00:12:06.79\00:12:10.53
and all those factors...
00:12:10.56\00:12:12.23
what do you see going
on between this family
00:12:12.26\00:12:15.63
and this woman that's
so desperate to please?
00:12:15.66\00:12:17.47
Isn't it this distrust...
like, a high degree of...
00:12:17.53\00:12:21.07
"We're not safe with
anyone except ourselves...
00:12:21.10\00:12:24.61
an environment we
can micromanage... "
00:12:24.64\00:12:27.31
Jean: I also see
overcompensation...
00:12:27.34\00:12:29.54
and so, when a person
feels that you're not enough
00:12:29.61\00:12:32.51
and you have to make
these rules and laws...
00:12:32.58\00:12:34.72
and follow the laws to be
pleasing in God's sight...
00:12:34.75\00:12:36.72
I see an overcompensating
00:12:36.79\00:12:39.39
of something... of
a magnitude that is...
00:12:39.42\00:12:41.36
Christina: Trying to earn...
00:12:41.39\00:12:43.09
Jean: Yeah, trying
to earn salvation...
00:12:43.12\00:12:45.19
and so, what you
said before about...
00:12:45.23\00:12:47.16
they didn't consider
the feelings of this lady
00:12:47.20\00:12:49.73
and so, if we're not considering
the feelings of others,
00:12:49.76\00:12:53.00
we're losing our humanity...
00:12:53.03\00:12:54.54
and every time we
lose our humanity...
00:12:54.57\00:12:56.37
it puts us in a really
precarious position with Christ.
00:12:56.40\00:12:59.24
David: Amen.
00:12:59.27\00:13:00.61
Rachel: And when you
said, I remember thinking...
00:13:00.64\00:13:02.51
and I experienced
some things at the time
00:13:02.54\00:13:05.05
where I noticed
almost a loss of humanity...
00:13:05.11\00:13:07.45
I remember my brother... I
didn't even mention this...
00:13:07.52\00:13:09.05
when we were talking beforehand,
00:13:09.08\00:13:10.69
my brother was horribly burned
in a gas fire... gasoline fire
00:13:10.72\00:13:14.46
and they didn't take him
to the hospital or anything...
00:13:14.49\00:13:18.33
and tried to
treat him with Aloe Vera
00:13:18.36\00:13:20.30
and I'm not trying to condemn...
00:13:20.33\00:13:22.20
Jennifer: Home remedies.
Rachel: Home remedies...
00:13:22.23\00:13:24.87
but you don't... they were
experimenting... is my point
00:13:24.90\00:13:27.50
they did not know...
00:13:27.54\00:13:28.87
they were trying to
do the best they could...
00:13:28.90\00:13:30.47
and he was in horrible pain...
00:13:30.51\00:13:32.51
and he went into a
shock and everything...
00:13:32.54\00:13:34.44
it was a lot that
happened with that
00:13:34.48\00:13:35.81
and I remember thinking,
00:13:35.84\00:13:39.75
"How can we get to the point
00:13:39.81\00:13:41.68
where regardless of
the circumstances...
00:13:41.72\00:13:43.52
we're so rigid in what we
believe... we can't change
00:13:43.55\00:13:46.79
and it was
like, your humanity...
00:13:46.82\00:13:48.66
and when we finished that day
00:13:48.69\00:13:50.73
of trying to get
him squared away...
00:13:50.76\00:13:52.56
then it was like...
we had to be temperate
00:13:52.59\00:13:54.13
so let's go to
bed and I couldn't...
00:13:54.16\00:13:56.10
I sat up with my
brother for most of the night...
00:13:56.16\00:13:59.13
I couldn't leave him...
because something seemed wrong
00:13:59.17\00:14:01.94
where temperance is
more important than his...
00:14:01.97\00:14:04.07
his suffering... David: Hmmm...
00:14:04.11\00:14:05.44
Rachel: So, I saw a
lot of that through...
00:14:05.47\00:14:07.34
like, people would come
to see us and talk with us
00:14:07.38\00:14:10.35
but because they had a micro
difference in their beliefs,
00:14:10.38\00:14:12.91
then you get kicked
off of our property,
00:14:12.95\00:14:15.18
"Go away because you
believe in free running oil...
00:14:15.22\00:14:18.39
and I believe that
you should use no oil... "
00:14:18.42\00:14:20.19
and that kind of thing...
00:14:20.22\00:14:21.56
Christina: There was no
love... Rachel: Exactly...
00:14:21.59\00:14:23.36
Christina: We have to protect
00:14:23.39\00:14:24.89
ourselves and this side...
not about the other person.
00:14:24.93\00:14:27.26
Jennifer: Notice how
this really gets to us...
00:14:27.30\00:14:29.20
like, all of us are like, "Oh!"
00:14:29.23\00:14:30.57
because we've all
wrestled with this.
00:14:30.60\00:14:32.57
David: What comes to my
mind is in Matthew chapter 6...
00:14:32.60\00:14:37.34
excuse me... 5 verse
48... Jesus makes a statement,
00:14:37.37\00:14:41.28
He said, "Therefore... "
00:14:41.31\00:14:42.64
He says, "You shall be perfect,
00:14:42.68\00:14:44.38
just as your Father
in heaven is perfect... "
00:14:44.41\00:14:46.35
but what's interesting is that
Luke... writing what he heard
00:14:46.38\00:14:51.22
and it's by divine
inspiration, he says,
00:14:51.25\00:14:54.42
"Be ye therefore merciful,
00:14:54.46\00:14:56.93
as your Father in
heaven is merciful... "
00:14:56.96\00:15:00.73
and that text came to
my mind as she was speaking
00:15:00.76\00:15:02.96
because they were
looking at this... perfecting...
00:15:03.00\00:15:05.13
perfecting...
perfecting... perfection...
00:15:05.17\00:15:06.70
and really the perfection
that God was looking for
00:15:06.74\00:15:09.40
is His love in our hearts
00:15:09.47\00:15:11.27
so that we can
be just as merciful
00:15:11.34\00:15:13.07
as God is merciful. Jean: Amen.
00:15:13.11\00:15:14.74
Jennifer: So you had mentioned
that you had come to Christ.
00:15:14.81\00:15:16.71
Rachel: Yes.
00:15:16.75\00:15:18.08
Jennifer: And so, this is like,
sort of the second phase...
00:15:18.11\00:15:20.48
so you grew up in this
extremely controlled environment
00:15:20.52\00:15:22.98
dos and don'ts...
00:15:23.02\00:15:24.45
and then at some point
you gave your heart to Jesus
00:15:24.49\00:15:26.42
did it all just
evaporate at that point or...?
00:15:26.45\00:15:28.96
Rachel: No,
because you're thinking...
00:15:28.99\00:15:30.96
how you're trained to
think still has an effect
00:15:30.99\00:15:34.16
even though Christ had my heart,
00:15:34.20\00:15:35.73
my mind was encased in legalism
00:15:35.76\00:15:37.20
so I would
literally do things like...
00:15:37.23\00:15:39.47
this is how it translated...
so I'm trying to make sure
00:15:39.50\00:15:41.84
that I please God
in everything I do,
00:15:41.90\00:15:44.24
once again, the fixation...
00:15:44.27\00:15:46.01
the focus is not on
the relationship with God
00:15:46.04\00:15:49.94
but rather on making sure that
every behavior lines up with
00:15:49.98\00:15:54.15
a standard that you
can externally measure.
00:15:54.22\00:15:57.32
Jennifer: This makes God
look like a behavioralist
00:15:57.35\00:15:59.02
or an autocrat... Rachel: Yes.
00:15:59.05\00:16:01.02
David: But the focus is on self.
Rachel: And the focus is on self
00:16:01.06\00:16:03.19
David: The focus is
on self, what can I do?
00:16:03.22\00:16:04.86
Rachel: Exactly...
exactly, I love that point,
00:16:04.89\00:16:08.00
so I literally would...
I started creating a chart
00:16:08.03\00:16:11.07
it was a line-graph chart of
how close I got to perfection
00:16:11.10\00:16:15.44
because see... to me...
00:16:15.47\00:16:17.31
righteousness was
about rightness...
00:16:17.34\00:16:19.44
so, "How right were
you in your behavior?"
00:16:19.47\00:16:21.68
"Did you think
any wrong thoughts,
00:16:21.71\00:16:24.25
did you do any wrong deeds?"
00:16:24.28\00:16:26.08
and I would
literally graph how close...
00:16:26.11\00:16:28.45
so, zeros... like, you just...
everything was bad that day
00:16:28.48\00:16:31.75
and then 100 percent,
nothing wrong in word or deed
00:16:31.79\00:16:34.39
and I remember,
00:16:34.42\00:16:35.76
I literally... one
day got to 100 percent
00:16:35.79\00:16:37.83
and I wrote in small notes,
00:16:37.86\00:16:39.39
"Praise God, finally perfect
in every thought and action...
00:16:39.43\00:16:42.76
did not do
anything that was wrong... "
00:16:42.80\00:16:44.73
David: And then,
everything went to zero, right?
00:16:44.77\00:16:46.53
Rachel: And the guilt set in...
00:16:46.57\00:16:47.94
yes! the pressure set in..
something seemed so wrong...
00:16:47.97\00:16:52.04
I could not shake
the uneasy feeling
00:16:52.07\00:16:55.01
that in thinking that
somehow I got to be right,
00:16:55.04\00:16:58.21
that I was utterly wrong
00:16:58.25\00:16:59.75
and I remember going that
00:16:59.81\00:17:01.22
and I stopped keeping my
chart within days after that...
00:17:01.28\00:17:04.12
Jennifer: Wow! Rachel: Yeah.
00:17:04.15\00:17:05.49
Jennifer: So was there...
00:17:05.52\00:17:06.86
I know that you ended
up in a boarding academy,
00:17:06.89\00:17:09.82
you were about...
what? 15 years old...?
00:17:09.86\00:17:11.73
Rachel: I was
16... when I left home...
00:17:11.76\00:17:13.56
still with a bonnet on
my head, Bible in my hand...
00:17:13.60\00:17:17.57
so, yeah, and I still
have a picture of that...
00:17:17.60\00:17:20.94
and I went there... and
the way I had been trained
00:17:20.97\00:17:23.64
if you give up one thing,
okay, if you let go of one thing
00:17:23.71\00:17:28.24
you stop wearing your bonnet,
00:17:28.28\00:17:29.61
"He that offends at one
point, is guilty of all... "
00:17:29.64\00:17:31.61
so, if I let go of one thing,
00:17:31.65\00:17:33.11
then sooner or
later I'm going to...
00:17:33.15\00:17:34.72
and there was
always a list of things...
00:17:34.75\00:17:36.08
you're going to
start wearing pants...
00:17:36.12\00:17:37.45
you're going to
start wearing jewelry...
00:17:37.49\00:17:38.82
you're going to
break the Sabbath,
00:17:38.85\00:17:40.19
you're going to start
committing fornication...
00:17:40.22\00:17:41.56
you're going to
give up Christ...
00:17:41.59\00:17:42.92
you know,
everything... is just...
00:17:42.96\00:17:44.29
Jennifer: It's all or nothing.
00:17:44.33\00:17:45.66
Rachel: Exactly.
00:17:45.69\00:17:47.03
Christina: To me,
balance is so essential
00:17:47.06\00:17:51.23
and I feel like this verse...
00:17:51.27\00:17:52.77
I feel like it
really points that out...
00:17:52.80\00:17:54.84
and I'm going to explain...
expound upon it in just a moment
00:17:54.87\00:17:57.34
it's kind of long
so hang with me...
00:17:57.37\00:17:58.97
Ecclesiastes 3... it says,
00:17:59.01\00:18:01.44
"To everything
there is a season,
00:18:01.48\00:18:02.94
and a time to every
purpose under the heaven:
00:18:02.98\00:18:05.65
A time to be
born, and a time to die;
00:18:05.68\00:18:07.38
a time to plant,
and a time to pluck...
00:18:07.42\00:18:09.58
A time to kill,
and a time to heal;
00:18:09.62\00:18:11.65
a time to break down,
and a time to build up;
00:18:11.69\00:18:14.06
A time to weep,
and a time to laugh;
00:18:14.09\00:18:16.56
a time to mourn,
and a time to dance;
00:18:16.59\00:18:18.99
A time to cast away stones,
00:18:19.06\00:18:21.26
and a time to
gather stones together;
00:18:21.30\00:18:22.63
a time to embrace,
00:18:22.66\00:18:24.00
and a time to
refrain from embracing;
00:18:24.03\00:18:25.37
A time to get,
and a time to lose;
00:18:25.40\00:18:26.74
a time to keep, and
a time to cast away;
00:18:26.77\00:18:28.10
A time to rend,
and a time to sew;
00:18:28.14\00:18:30.01
a time to keep
silence, and a time to speak;
00:18:30.04\00:18:32.14
A time to love,
and a time to hate;
00:18:32.17\00:18:34.14
a time of war,
and a time of peace. "
00:18:34.18\00:18:36.44
And what I want to
bring out with this is
00:18:36.48\00:18:38.65
there's a time for everything
00:18:38.71\00:18:41.28
but sometimes we'll
take a quote or a verse
00:18:41.32\00:18:43.75
and we say, "This quote or
verse is for every time... "
00:18:43.79\00:18:47.72
Jennifer: Yeah.
00:18:47.76\00:18:49.09
Christina: And so,
that's where I think
00:18:49.12\00:18:50.46
we really get out of balance...
00:18:50.49\00:18:51.83
and if you see...
and I tell people...
00:18:51.86\00:18:54.73
whenever you study
one topic, whatever it is,
00:18:54.76\00:18:58.07
there's... you'll always...
always find the opposite...
00:18:58.10\00:19:01.17
so, keep searching...
keep searching... why?
00:19:01.20\00:19:02.87
because there's a
time for everything...
00:19:02.90\00:19:04.51
you just heard that there's
a time to preserve life...
00:19:04.54\00:19:06.27
there's a time to kill...
00:19:06.31\00:19:08.01
right, I mean,
you wouldn't think
00:19:08.04\00:19:09.38
that would be in the Word of God
00:19:09.41\00:19:10.91
right, but it
is... so there is...
00:19:10.95\00:19:12.61
we need to be careful about
applying one verse or quote
00:19:12.65\00:19:16.48
to every time...
00:19:16.52\00:19:17.89
Jennifer: And typically, this
kind of approach to religion
00:19:17.92\00:19:20.66
is characterized by a
cherry-picking process
00:19:20.69\00:19:23.29
where a person pulls
out the things that appeal
00:19:23.32\00:19:25.86
to the role that they're on
which is a sense of human merit
00:19:25.89\00:19:30.03
so... so you
ended up at Wildwood...
00:19:30.07\00:19:31.80
Rachel: Fountainview...
00:19:31.83\00:19:33.23
Jennifer:
Fountainview... I'm sorry...
00:19:33.27\00:19:34.60
and as an academy student and...
was that culture shock for you
00:19:34.64\00:19:39.17
because they're very balanced.
00:19:39.21\00:19:40.81
Rachel: Oh yes, I mean...
00:19:40.84\00:19:42.41
I hadn't been around
one young person my age
00:19:42.44\00:19:44.31
and now, it was around 30...
00:19:44.35\00:19:45.68
so, 30 would seem
like nothing to you...
00:19:45.71\00:19:47.72
I mean, you could
have 30 in a classroom...
00:19:47.75\00:19:49.75
and there were 30 students
in the entire school at the time
00:19:49.78\00:19:52.72
but for me,
that was overwhelming
00:19:52.75\00:19:54.39
so yeah, I went
through so much...
00:19:54.42\00:19:55.96
socially...
academically... everything...
00:19:55.99\00:19:57.89
trying to come up to speed
but the whole trouble is...
00:19:57.93\00:20:01.36
"Do I take off my
bonnet... shorten my dress?"
00:20:01.40\00:20:03.63
I mean, I didn't
want to give up Christ,
00:20:03.67\00:20:05.40
because I didn't want to do
wrong... but how do I decide?
00:20:05.43\00:20:07.90
And that's when I
learned about principles
00:20:07.94\00:20:10.04
and I had never
learned about principles
00:20:10.07\00:20:12.01
and it kind of goes
with what you're saying
00:20:12.04\00:20:13.94
that... if you...
00:20:13.98\00:20:15.48
actually what you're
saying goes beyond this
00:20:15.51\00:20:17.25
but principles are underlying
truths that don't change...
00:20:17.28\00:20:19.95
by which you can
govern your lives...
00:20:19.98\00:20:21.85
and I think what helps
you know the right time is...
00:20:21.88\00:20:24.35
is when it's... all interpreted
00:20:24.39\00:20:27.19
on the basis of a
loving relationship
00:20:27.22\00:20:28.96
so I didn't learn
that till later...
00:20:29.02\00:20:30.69
the relationship part...
really... the understanding
00:20:30.73\00:20:33.13
but principles
were... was the thing
00:20:33.16\00:20:35.33
and the Principal of the school
00:20:35.36\00:20:37.47
is the one that
taught me principles
00:20:37.50\00:20:39.00
and it was... she
helped me to understand
00:20:39.03\00:20:43.34
that... actually I
gave her an argument
00:20:43.37\00:20:47.58
as to why I didn't think I
could take off the bonnet...
00:20:47.61\00:20:50.08
the question always comes...
did Ellen White wear the bonnet?
00:20:50.11\00:20:53.15
and she mentioned that
there's a picture of Ellen White
00:20:53.18\00:20:56.18
in the pulpit without one
00:20:56.22\00:20:57.55
and we actually
had a quote for that...
00:20:57.59\00:20:58.92
we always had a
quote for everything
00:20:58.95\00:21:00.39
and it was a
reference about how Ellen White
00:21:00.42\00:21:02.89
had laid her bonnet
and gloves in the vestibule
00:21:02.92\00:21:05.36
before she went into the podium
00:21:05.39\00:21:07.03
and the reason why is because
people would be distracted
00:21:07.06\00:21:09.73
trying to see her
face while she was speaking
00:21:09.76\00:21:12.07
so, our point
was... she did wear one...
00:21:12.10\00:21:14.17
she just didn't have it
when the picture was taken
00:21:14.20\00:21:15.77
for that reason,
00:21:15.80\00:21:17.14
and she grabbed
me on that, she said,
00:21:17.17\00:21:19.27
"That makes exactly the
point that I'm trying...
00:21:19.31\00:21:21.74
that gives the point
that I'm trying to make...
00:21:21.78\00:21:24.48
anything that detracts
from Christ... has to go.
00:21:24.51\00:21:27.15
That's the principle that
nothing should stand between us
00:21:27.18\00:21:31.15
and our communication of this
message of Christ and His love
00:21:31.19\00:21:34.86
when people look at you...
00:21:34.89\00:21:36.22
they see religion...
they don't see principles
00:21:36.26\00:21:39.29
and it also shows you that
00:21:39.33\00:21:40.66
modesty is not
dependent on wearing a bonnet,
00:21:40.70\00:21:42.80
that's a rule...
that's a custom...
00:21:42.83\00:21:44.63
which can change with time
00:21:44.67\00:21:46.84
whereas modesty can...
will still express itself
00:21:46.87\00:21:49.80
in appropriate ways
00:21:49.84\00:21:51.17
even though the law
and the rule may change. "
00:21:51.21\00:21:53.44
And I was
convicted on the spot...
00:21:53.48\00:21:55.01
Jennifer: That...
that's powerful...
00:21:55.04\00:21:56.75
so, you learned about principles
00:21:56.78\00:21:58.28
and I want to
fast-forward a little
00:21:58.31\00:21:59.75
because we're not going to
get the grand arc of your story
00:21:59.78\00:22:02.15
if we don't move a
little bit into the future
00:22:02.18\00:22:04.45
so... but you
eventually came to the place
00:22:04.49\00:22:06.92
of coming to know
Jesus as a person...
00:22:06.96\00:22:08.82
Rachel: Yes.
00:22:08.86\00:22:10.19
Jennifer: So, give us
some insight about that.
00:22:10.23\00:22:13.60
Rachel: Well, I did go through
some devastating experiences
00:22:13.63\00:22:16.10
later on in life...
few years down the road...
00:22:16.13\00:22:19.47
and what I learned is that...
00:22:19.50\00:22:21.60
knowledge and even the
understanding of principles...
00:22:21.64\00:22:25.21
it didn't help the
emotional deficit that was there
00:22:25.24\00:22:28.78
and I didn't know how
to manage all of that,
00:22:28.84\00:22:31.35
I wanted to do what was right...
00:22:31.38\00:22:32.71
but in a way...
my focus on rightness
00:22:32.75\00:22:34.62
helped to get me into trouble
00:22:34.65\00:22:36.08
because I put myself in...
00:22:36.12\00:22:37.65
in situations that
were compromising...
00:22:37.69\00:22:39.55
knowing that, "I don't do
that and I am not that way... "
00:22:39.59\00:22:42.22
and guess what?
00:22:42.26\00:22:43.59
"He that thinketh he standeth,
take heed lest he fall. "
00:22:43.63\00:22:45.86
"You straining at a
gnat... you swallow a camel... "
00:22:45.89\00:22:48.00
every time...
00:22:48.03\00:22:49.36
so I ended up with
circumstances in my life
00:22:49.40\00:22:52.23
and doing things that I
never dreamed I would do
00:22:52.27\00:22:54.77
and God used that as a time...
00:22:54.80\00:22:56.91
Jennifer: I was going
to say... you know God...
00:22:56.94\00:22:58.67
I think, where you
were coming from...
00:22:58.74\00:23:00.74
you kind of needed
to really blow it...
00:23:00.78\00:23:02.78
please forgive
me for saying this
00:23:02.81\00:23:04.98
but I think that
God reaching into that
00:23:05.01\00:23:06.92
was probably
very powerful for you
00:23:06.95\00:23:09.12
spiritually and emotionally.
00:23:09.15\00:23:10.49
Rachel: It was...
00:23:10.52\00:23:11.85
I never
realized until I ended up
00:23:11.89\00:23:13.52
where I never
thought I would be...
00:23:13.56\00:23:15.56
that I had looked at everyone
else legalistically before,
00:23:15.59\00:23:18.23
how self-righteous I was...
00:23:18.26\00:23:20.33
how I'd look at
someone who was on drugs
00:23:20.36\00:23:24.40
or in illicit
relationships... or in jail...
00:23:24.43\00:23:26.94
and I would look
at them and think,
00:23:26.97\00:23:28.77
"Oh, you know, it's too bad... "
00:23:28.80\00:23:30.44
you know, that pity... that...
00:23:30.47\00:23:32.07
"I-feel-sorry-for-you...
" type thing.
00:23:32.11\00:23:33.44
Jennifer: You
weren't judging them
00:23:33.48\00:23:34.81
but you were so condescending.
David: A little like mercy.
00:23:34.84\00:23:37.38
Rachel: Yeah... yeah exactly...
it's not true empathy...
00:23:37.41\00:23:40.12
like, "I cannot be
you... I would never... "
00:23:40.15\00:23:42.55
have you heard people say,
"I would never do that... "
00:23:42.58\00:23:44.65
All: Yes... Hmmm... hmmm...
00:23:44.69\00:23:46.02
Rachel: You have no
idea what you would do
00:23:46.05\00:23:48.82
if circumstances... genetics...
need... lined up in such a way
00:23:48.86\00:23:53.56
and the grace of
God didn't keep you...
00:23:53.60\00:23:54.93
Jennifer: What a powerful point.
00:23:54.96\00:23:56.43
Rachel: There's nothing you
wouldn't do, we are all sinners
00:23:56.46\00:23:58.77
and the only thing
that makes a difference
00:23:58.80\00:24:01.17
is that grace... saved
by grace, unmerited favor...
00:24:01.20\00:24:04.51
I experienced grace in my life
00:24:04.54\00:24:08.11
and that's what
changed me ultimately.
00:24:08.14\00:24:10.31
Jennifer: Glory...
Hallelujah, amen... right?
00:24:10.35\00:24:13.98
David: And grace is God's power,
00:24:14.02\00:24:17.12
when you read
Scripture, grace is God's power
00:24:17.15\00:24:19.25
so it's His unmerited favor
that had come into your life
00:24:19.29\00:24:21.92
then it's His power
that's working in you...
00:24:21.99\00:24:23.96
Rachel: Power to
change. David: Amen.
00:24:23.99\00:24:25.53
Rachel: He provides
the power the Bible says,
00:24:25.56\00:24:27.76
"According to the
power that works in you... "
00:24:27.80\00:24:29.60
it's not you working it out...
00:24:29.63\00:24:32.23
yes, you work it
out... and He works it in...
00:24:32.27\00:24:34.04
that's your choice...
it's our choice then...
00:24:34.07\00:24:36.04
David: You surrender...
00:24:36.07\00:24:37.41
Rachel: But the
power is to believe...
00:24:37.44\00:24:38.77
the power is to surrender...
the power is to trust...
00:24:38.81\00:24:41.58
the power is to praise Him in
the middle of your circumstances
00:24:41.61\00:24:44.28
knowing that He loves you
and He's going to save you.
00:24:44.31\00:24:46.82
That's what I experienced...
00:24:46.85\00:24:48.18
in the middle of me doing wrong,
00:24:48.22\00:24:50.09
I literally heard God speaking
to my mind and heart saying,
00:24:50.12\00:24:53.32
"I love you... " and
that's all He said to me.
00:24:53.36\00:24:55.49
"I love you... "
00:24:55.52\00:24:56.96
my heart was
already condemning me
00:24:56.99\00:24:58.39
for everything I was doing wrong
00:24:58.43\00:24:59.76
but I needed to know that
He loved me in the middle of...
00:24:59.79\00:25:03.30
that changed everything
00:25:03.33\00:25:05.47
and it's changed my
attitude toward people
00:25:05.50\00:25:07.34
so now I see a young
lady coming to church,
00:25:07.37\00:25:08.70
I literally... just a few
weeks ago was in some place...
00:25:08.74\00:25:11.14
in an Adventist gathering
and I saw a woman come in
00:25:11.17\00:25:13.61
and she literally
had a... a garment on
00:25:13.68\00:25:15.61
that was just a
strip of cloth...
00:25:15.64\00:25:17.45
two strips of cloth
going down the front
00:25:17.48\00:25:19.41
and the strings
tying it to the back
00:25:19.45\00:25:22.42
and everything else
was bare flesh under that,
00:25:22.48\00:25:24.82
now, can you
imagine walking into
00:25:24.85\00:25:26.19
a concentration of Adventist
people... dressed like that?
00:25:26.22\00:25:29.62
When I saw... I mean, there
were brutal looks following her
00:25:29.66\00:25:32.99
and other looks following her
00:25:33.03\00:25:34.90
and she was being led along
by the hand by a young man,
00:25:34.96\00:25:37.33
I looked at her and I knew
00:25:37.37\00:25:39.40
this was a woman who was
going through terrible abuse,
00:25:39.43\00:25:42.47
this is a woman who's...
who has lost all sense of self,
00:25:42.50\00:25:45.47
value and self-worth and
struggling with things...
00:25:45.51\00:25:48.14
I didn't see her...
00:25:48.18\00:25:49.51
thinking... "She
needs to cover up...
00:25:49.54\00:25:50.88
how dare she wear that!"
David: Thank God she's here.
00:25:50.91\00:25:52.95
Rachel: But I
understood her dress...
00:25:52.98\00:25:54.32
David: Thank
God that she's here.
00:25:54.35\00:25:55.68
Rachel: That's true,
and I also understood
00:25:55.72\00:25:57.05
that her
clothing was an expression
00:25:57.09\00:25:58.75
of what was going on inside,
00:25:58.82\00:26:00.16
now I understand
that sin is a condition...
00:26:00.19\00:26:03.93
and it is something...
we have been wounded
00:26:03.96\00:26:06.29
and the wounds have caused
us to express certain things.
00:26:06.33\00:26:09.30
What God is trying to
do is heal our wounds...
00:26:09.33\00:26:11.90
He's not just... I
mean, the behavior...
00:26:11.93\00:26:13.77
He doesn't want our
behavior to be wrong
00:26:13.80\00:26:15.57
but the behavior is
like leaves on the tree...
00:26:15.60\00:26:17.84
we focus on the leaf
00:26:17.87\00:26:19.21
and the parable of the
fig tree is trying to tell us
00:26:19.24\00:26:21.71
that if the tree is
right, it will grow the figs...
00:26:21.74\00:26:23.98
and it will also
have the leaves too.
00:26:24.05\00:26:25.45
Christina: Bigger matters...
00:26:25.48\00:26:26.85
Rachel: But He wants
to come inside... yes.
00:26:26.88\00:26:29.02
David: Jesus said, "I am the
vine and you are the branches"
00:26:29.05\00:26:30.72
and so, we need to abide in Him.
00:26:30.75\00:26:32.42
Rachel: I should be quiet...
00:26:32.45\00:26:33.79
you all will
have something to say.
00:26:33.82\00:26:35.62
Jean: The
compassion that was missing
00:26:35.66\00:26:37.29
back when you
were having that meal
00:26:37.33\00:26:38.89
and the humanity that
wasn't provided to that lady
00:26:38.93\00:26:41.60
that was trying to do
something nice and kind...
00:26:41.63\00:26:44.27
here you are... years later...
00:26:44.30\00:26:45.87
with all this
experience under your belt...
00:26:45.90\00:26:47.84
providing that
compassion... that empathy...
00:26:47.87\00:26:49.74
that love that that woman
needed that walked in there...
00:26:49.77\00:26:53.27
Christina: And it's interesting
that you had to fall so badly
00:26:53.31\00:26:56.51
to be able to see the
reality of your sinfulness...
00:26:56.54\00:26:59.55
I mean, that probably
happens to most of us, right?
00:26:59.58\00:27:01.92
before we recognize
that we are really sinners...
00:27:01.95\00:27:04.29
we have to...
fall. Jean: Absolutely.
00:27:04.32\00:27:05.95
Jennifer: I mean, we
don't want to recommend falling
00:27:06.02\00:27:07.52
but it does have
good effects sometimes,
00:27:07.56\00:27:10.33
you know, you didn't get
through the whole narrative
00:27:10.36\00:27:13.56
because it's so
detailed and so comprehensive
00:27:13.60\00:27:16.33
but, there's a
wonderful book out there
00:27:16.36\00:27:18.30
called, "Born Yesterday...
" and I love the title,
00:27:18.33\00:27:20.54
I was like, "Oooh, why
didn't I think of that title,
00:27:20.57\00:27:22.37
that's so good... "
00:27:22.40\00:27:23.74
and you guys need to
get a copy of that book
00:27:23.77\00:27:25.71
and you need to read that
book because it's powerful.
00:27:25.74\00:27:27.74
David: "Born Yesterday... "
00:27:27.81\00:27:29.14
Jennifer: "Born Yesterday"
00:27:29.18\00:27:30.51
and it's got a picture of
her and her bonnet in it...
00:27:30.55\00:27:32.35
and I want to say this
00:27:32.38\00:27:33.72
to those folks that
have joined us today
00:27:33.75\00:27:35.45
that... the Bible tells us...
00:27:35.48\00:27:37.29
one of the prophets...
00:27:37.32\00:27:38.65
it's either Jeremiah or
Isaiah, I can't remember which,
00:27:38.69\00:27:41.32
it says that all our
righteousness are as filthy rags
00:27:41.36\00:27:44.23
and that they're like a leaf
that shrivels up and blows away,
00:27:44.26\00:27:47.00
you can do nothing to
will earn merit before God,
00:27:47.06\00:27:50.30
He will give you His
merit as a free gift to you
00:27:50.33\00:27:53.54
at an infinite cost to Himself
00:27:53.57\00:27:54.90
study righteousness by faith...
study the love of God...
00:27:54.94\00:27:57.87
and you will not be sorry.
00:27:57.91\00:27:59.24