We are taking on
the hot topic today
00:00:26.59\00:00:29.59
at the Multitude
of Counselors Program
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and the title of our
Program is: Coming out.
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Yes, we're going to be
talking about homosexuality.
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Let me define it first.
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Same-sex attraction
called homosexuality
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is being
attracted to one's own sex.
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In some cases, this may be
quite fixed and inflexible,
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in other cases,
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individuals are
attracted both ways...
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to both sexes...
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in other cases,
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individuals may have that
mindset for a period of time
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or that preference
for a period of time
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and they may be
able to transition,
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it does happen
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or they may have
begun their life journey
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opposite-sex attracted...
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and moved into the same-sex
lifestyle and attraction,
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sexuality is quite flexible
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and there are sources
both within Christian thinking
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and outside of
Christian pro-gay thinking
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that acknowledge that.
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So we're just saying that
there is some flexibility here.
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What about prevalence?
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From what I understand and
the statistics I've looked at,
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about 3.5
percent of the population
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is either
homosexual, lesbian or bisexual.
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We haven't yet identified
a "gay gene" or "gay brain"
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but some... in my thinking...
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some biological
factors could be at play...
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for instance,
there is something called
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"Fraternal Birth
Order Effect" the summary...
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each subsequent
son a woman bears,
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has a greater likelihood
of turning out homosexual,
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now, that could be from
issues that are not biological,
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because the older brother
sexually abused the younger man,
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we don't know exactly,
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correlation does
not equal causality
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but there could be some
biological factors at play
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because the brain
is a complex organ.
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Traumas of various kinds
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can predispose an
individual to homosexuality.
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Attachment styles of parents
can predispose individuals
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to attachment-styles prevalent
in same-sex partner populations.
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Same-sexual abuse can
erotize same-sex relationships
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so there are a
number of causative factors.
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What about
prognosis and treatments?
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Well, this is where
things get difficult
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because in 1973, the
American Psychiatric Association
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took homosexuality out
of the diagnostic manual
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so it is not considered
by the APA to be a disorder
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so, we're walking
on egg shells here,
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trying to parse
this thing out correctly
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but, having said that,
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individuals that
have same-sex attraction,
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can't necessarily
pray the "gay" away
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and so, we're trying to
be very realistic about this.
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just because an
individual may choose
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to come out the gay lifestyle
as our guest today has done
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does not mean that poof...
as soon as he makes that choice,
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he's opposite sex attracted...
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and, of course, he's
going to be unpacking that
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much better than I could...
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the title of our talk today...
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our Program today is: Coming Out
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and our guest is
Michael Carducci.
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I love you Michael...
Michael: I love you too.
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Jennifer: I'm so
glad you're here,
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thank you for doing
just about every hairstyle
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in this whole
place... you're awesome.
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We also have a
wonderful panel of Counselors,
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we have David...
Biblical Counselor,
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David Guerrero from Wisconsin,
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we have Licensed
Professional Counselor,
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Shelly Wiggins from Michigan
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and Dr. Jean
Wright from Philadelphia.
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Thank you, each one of you,
for coming to our Program today.
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So, let's get into the
story, you have an amazing story
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get us started... start it
right in the beginning, right?
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Sure, yeah,
well, it's interesting
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because when I tell my
story, it begins with my father.
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My dad was in the Navy,
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he'd be gone three
to six months at a time,
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my dad was Italian
and known for his temper
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so, when my dad was home,
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he was abusive
and loud and angry
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so, that was a little
frightening when he was home,
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but for the most part,
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it was just my
sisters and my mom and me
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when my dad would be out of
town for three to six months
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so, very early on...
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and this was a
lightning bolt idea for me
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is when I heard that
"Defensive Detachment"
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can happen even before
the ages of consciousness,
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so, between the
ages of one and three
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when most of the
boys start to recognize
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that they're not like their moms
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and they wear
baseball caps like their dad,
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because they're
identifying with their gender,
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my dad wasn't available
or he was loud and angry
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so, for me, even
before I was conscious,
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I detached from my
father as my role model
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and so, the only
one left was my mom.
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And so that's called the
sense of "Detachment" yeah.
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So, people would ask me,
"Mike, were you born gay?"
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And I would think back
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and I couldn't imagine a
time when I wasn't different,
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I knew that when I
started Grade School,
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that I was
different than the other boys
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and they were quick to
remind me or to pigeon-hole me
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and call me,
"Sissy, Queer, Fagot... "
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so, all of these were... were...
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all of these comments
along with the behaviors at home
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were locking me
into this identity
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that I didn't necessarily want
but I felt like I had no choice
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and I felt that I
was born that way.
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Jennifer: Hmmm... hmmm... wow!
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At what age did you feel
like you were born that way?
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I was six years old when I knew
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that I was different
than the other kids in school.
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I didn't have
same-sex attraction
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but I had this... I
had this innate curiosity
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about what men were like
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and because my dad was
so absent in the home...
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Jennifer: So unavailable.
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Michael: Right, right, right,
so I had this curiosity about
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what would it be like to
see, you know, a man naked...
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but it wasn't sexualized
and I was never abused as a kid.
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Shelly: When did
it switch from...
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you knew something was different
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to becoming sexualized
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you talked about
your early teenage years.
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Michael: Sure, it's interesting,
I have a story that I tell...
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I was... I went to ten
schools within twelve years
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with my education...
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in Third Grade, I went
to three different schools
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so, even if I got a
friend that was a male...
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you know, a healthy,
masculine identity...
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you know, guys just
playing together with guys
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because girls are gross
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because during
those developmental years,
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all of it is masculinity
affirming masculinity
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so I didn't have that
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so I had this
curiosity but most of the time,
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I was playing with the
girls, I was a great jump-roper
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and hopscotch player
so I went to the school,
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I remember, it was
in Dearborn, Michigan
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and the school
system was so wealthy
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that they actually had
built-in swimming pools
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in their school districts
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and I remember in Eighth Grade,
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getting ready to go to Gym Class
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and the boys had the
swimming pool for a week
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and then the girls would have it
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so I'm putting
on my bathing suit
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and I realize that
none of the other guys are
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Eighth Grade...
that's what? 14 years old...
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I'm still a late bloomer
and I'm a short little guy
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that's been taunted
and teased all my life
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and so I put on my bathing suit
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and realized
that nobody else did
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well then, I got
snapped with towels
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and taunted and teased
until I took off my bathing suit
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so here I am...
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Jennifer: And
they were all naked.
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Michael: Everyone was
naked and this was just expected
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so here we are doing jumping
jacks on the side of the pool
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and pairing up for sit-ups...
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so what that did is...
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that heightened the
gender dysphoria that I had
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because again, I thought that
I should have been a girl...
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I thought that
God made a mistake
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but I thought that
God was so arbitrary...
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it's like, "Mmmm... no Mike,
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I did it
because I wanted to... "
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and I would pray
that God would change me,
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I would pray that I
would wake up the next day
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and I would be a girl
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and then
everything would be okay.
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So, here I am in Eight Grade...
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the emasculation was so strong
that that was actually the year
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that I remember my desire to
be a female was the strongest.
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I grew my hair up
past my shoulders,
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I remember, walking
out into the backyard
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in the night... in a bathrobe,
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fantasizing as the wind
would blow through the robe
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like, it was a dress
and through my hair...
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but I believe
now... looking back
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that that was also the
height of the emasculation
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that I was
experiencing even in the school.
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If they have rules now that
they would actually intervene
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for a child like me
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and that if I
expressed that I was transgender
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and that I wanted to be a girl,
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that the
Government would step in
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and start giving
me the hormone therapy
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so that I could
transition to be the female
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that I always felt
that I needed to be,
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however, when I was 20 years old
and came out in the Gay culture,
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again, up until 20... I believed
that I needed to become a woman
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to be right with God and
to also be right with Society,
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but at 20-years-old... when
I came out into the Gay bars,
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I realized, "Wow! masculinity is
more desirable than femininity
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so if I just
butch it up a little bit
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and work out in the gyms... "
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then I found that I got
all of the male attention
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that I was desperate for... and
the Gender Dysphoria was gone
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so if I would
have mutilated my body
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to make it appear more feminine,
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can you imagine
the private purgatory
00:08:58.53\00:09:01.50
that I would have been in now
with the situation of where...
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"Oh wow! now I'm not
either and I'm a mess" and...
00:09:04.41\00:09:07.78
and the rejection I'm sure
would have been even stronger.
00:09:07.81\00:09:10.21
Giving children
puberty suppressing hormones
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to delay puberty is just
shocking to me but I guess...
00:09:14.25\00:09:16.92
Michael: And they're
going to be on these hormones
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for the rest of their lives
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and that in itself
is life threatening.
00:09:20.99\00:09:22.32
Jennifer: Yeah, and we don't
know the long-term effect...
00:09:22.36\00:09:24.33
from what I
understand on the bones
00:09:24.39\00:09:26.36
and, you know
hormones are pretty potent.
00:09:26.39\00:09:29.46
Shelly: No doubt
that this is a hot topic
00:09:29.50\00:09:32.53
and there are so
many facets to this
00:09:32.57\00:09:35.44
but Michael, take us a little
further into your story...
00:09:35.47\00:09:39.31
you... from High
School... then you said...
00:09:39.37\00:09:42.44
you went into the full
culture for... what... 20 years?
00:09:42.48\00:09:46.72
Michael: Hmmm... hmmm... yeah...
00:09:46.75\00:09:48.08
from 20 years old until 40.
00:09:48.12\00:09:49.62
Shelly: And then,
something happened...
00:09:49.65\00:09:51.05
what... what happened?
00:09:51.12\00:09:53.46
Michael: At 40?
00:09:53.49\00:09:54.82
Jennifer: Well, tell us,
whatever you want to tell us.
00:09:54.86\00:09:56.99
Shelly: We want your story.
00:09:57.03\00:09:58.59
Michael: Well, I thought that
the best that I could give God
00:09:58.63\00:10:02.30
was that, if I had a monogamous
relationship with one man,
00:10:02.33\00:10:04.97
that... that maybe
God would understand
00:10:05.00\00:10:06.57
that this was the
best that I could do.
00:10:06.60\00:10:08.40
Just before I went
into the Gay culture,
00:10:08.47\00:10:10.21
I handpicked one guy in
the church that I thought
00:10:10.24\00:10:12.37
I could share my story with
00:10:12.41\00:10:14.54
and it took
months to pick him out,
00:10:14.61\00:10:16.54
every week at
church, I would watch him
00:10:16.58\00:10:18.41
and I said, "He's the one... "
00:10:18.45\00:10:19.78
so, one night,
after Prayer Meeting,
00:10:19.81\00:10:21.18
I sat down with him...
he said, "What's up Mike?"
00:10:21.22\00:10:22.85
and I said, "Well,
it has to do with women"
00:10:22.88\00:10:24.85
and before I even had a chance
00:10:24.92\00:10:27.02
to even say what
what I was going to share,
00:10:27.06\00:10:29.26
he said something so
derogatory about women
00:10:29.29\00:10:31.06
that I knew I wasn't safe,
00:10:31.09\00:10:32.43
there was no way I was going
to share my secret with him,
00:10:32.46\00:10:35.10
I listened to him attentively,
I thanked him for his time
00:10:35.13\00:10:38.00
and I walked out
of church that night
00:10:38.03\00:10:39.37
and I said to God, "I'm done...
00:10:39.40\00:10:40.74
I can't get my sexuality
and my religion to come together
00:10:40.80\00:10:44.01
this is what you give me...
00:10:44.04\00:10:45.57
to share my story
with... or whatever... "
00:10:45.61\00:10:47.84
and I said,
"I'm out of here... "
00:10:47.88\00:10:49.21
and that was when I
turned and went into Gay culture
00:10:49.24\00:10:51.15
so, as I went into
gay culture, I picked...
00:10:51.21\00:10:53.85
my first lover was someone
very much like my father,
00:10:53.88\00:10:57.32
he had a lot of rage and
anger, he was an alcoholic,
00:10:57.35\00:11:00.46
he was physically
abusive, verbally abusive,
00:11:00.49\00:11:03.79
and he introduced me to
all kinds of sexual things
00:11:03.83\00:11:07.03
that I never even
considered or thought of
00:11:07.06\00:11:09.10
and within just
a few short months,
00:11:09.13\00:11:10.77
I had become a sexual addict...
00:11:10.80\00:11:12.50
unfaithful in the five
significant relationships
00:11:12.53\00:11:15.57
that I had within
that 20-year period
00:11:15.60\00:11:17.14
and... and as time went on,
00:11:17.17\00:11:19.24
the addiction got
deeper and darker.
00:11:19.27\00:11:21.18
Hmmm... Wow!
00:11:21.21\00:11:22.94
Then you had some kind of
invitation from your sister
00:11:22.98\00:11:26.82
that you thought was
a little odd one day...
00:11:26.88\00:11:29.55
This is what I hope
that everyone will get
00:11:29.58\00:11:32.22
and the most powerful
thing I think about my story is
00:11:32.25\00:11:35.39
what my sisters
did on my behalf.
00:11:35.42\00:11:36.76
My sisters loved
me unconditionally...
00:11:36.79\00:11:40.00
without a doubt...
00:11:40.03\00:11:41.36
and I thought
that they accepted me
00:11:41.40\00:11:42.73
in my homosexual identity
00:11:42.76\00:11:44.97
because I think that
they kind of believed as I did
00:11:45.03\00:11:47.70
that that was the
only option that I had
00:11:47.74\00:11:49.44
they never restricted me
00:11:49.47\00:11:51.27
from interacting with
my nieces and nephews,
00:11:51.31\00:11:53.07
they always invited my lovers
and I... over for holiday meals
00:11:53.11\00:11:56.11
but they were praying for me,
00:11:56.14\00:11:58.15
they were
intentionally praying for me
00:11:58.21\00:12:00.18
and if it hadn't
been for their prayers...
00:12:00.22\00:12:02.12
because I wasn't
praying for myself,
00:12:02.15\00:12:03.49
I wasn't broken... I
didn't want anyone's pity
00:12:03.52\00:12:06.05
but they were
secretly praying for me
00:12:06.09\00:12:07.99
but overtly loving me
00:12:08.02\00:12:09.72
and in that process,
00:12:09.79\00:12:11.43
God was able to
reach down at the height
00:12:11.46\00:12:13.46
of my sexual addiction,
at the height of my career,
00:12:13.50\00:12:16.26
I thought I had
the world by the tail,
00:12:16.33\00:12:17.77
I had a rich boyfriend,
00:12:17.80\00:12:19.13
we both had
convertible Mercedes,
00:12:19.17\00:12:20.87
houses with pools,
condos on the lake,
00:12:20.94\00:12:22.90
I was doing
television... people's hair...
00:12:22.94\00:12:24.84
it's like... it's like the
enemy was giving me everything
00:12:24.87\00:12:27.88
but the Lord was
still able to reach
00:12:27.94\00:12:30.11
and pass all of that
through my sisters' prayers
00:12:30.15\00:12:33.15
and an invitation came
00:12:33.18\00:12:35.05
to where I
accepted Jesus as my Savior
00:12:35.08\00:12:37.05
now there's a lot of
detail that goes with that
00:12:37.09\00:12:38.89
but in essence, I believe that
if we stop praying for people
00:12:38.92\00:12:43.96
that... if we accept
this as an option from God...
00:12:43.99\00:12:47.50
or that God has changed His
opinion according to His Word,
00:12:47.53\00:12:50.23
then when you stop
praying for people like me...
00:12:50.27\00:12:52.50
then that cuts
off any hope for them.
00:12:52.53\00:12:54.60
So the fact that your
sister kept praying for you...
00:12:54.64\00:12:56.87
Michael: Sisters... 3 of them...
00:12:56.91\00:12:58.64
Jennifer: Three... so you end
up accepting Jesus and then...
00:12:58.67\00:13:00.21
you left the lifestyle or...?
00:13:00.24\00:13:01.71
David: Well they
were praying for you
00:13:01.74\00:13:03.08
but they were also showing love
for you and not excluding you
00:13:03.11\00:13:05.25
and God's love was
demonstrated to you.
00:13:05.28\00:13:08.25
Michael: One of my sisters
was my assistant at my salon
00:13:08.28\00:13:10.72
and my lover and
I owned the salon,
00:13:10.79\00:13:13.25
I had other gay
hairdressers that worked for us,
00:13:13.32\00:13:15.22
she wasn't just
that way to me...
00:13:15.26\00:13:16.96
she was that way to everyone
00:13:16.99\00:13:18.33
and that was why I
thought that she accepted me
00:13:18.36\00:13:21.50
as a gay person,
00:13:21.53\00:13:23.00
I didn't think that she
even had an issue with that,
00:13:23.03\00:13:25.03
but what was so amazing is the
night before I got baptized...
00:13:25.07\00:13:28.20
and I came in
just under the wire...
00:13:28.24\00:13:30.14
nobody knew that I was
gay, I wasn't sharing that...
00:13:30.17\00:13:33.24
I came in on the last night
and the preacher made a call
00:13:33.27\00:13:35.74
and that night... in the
parking lot... my sister said,
00:13:35.78\00:13:37.91
"So, what are you going
to do with your boyfriend?"
00:13:37.95\00:13:40.02
I looked at her and
said, "Nothing, I'm gay...
00:13:40.05\00:13:42.22
I was born this
way, I tried to change,
00:13:42.25\00:13:44.72
I prayed that God would heal
me, that never happened... "
00:13:44.75\00:13:46.69
I said, "All I know...
00:13:46.72\00:13:48.22
is that Jesus loves me
00:13:48.26\00:13:49.72
and that's why I'm
getting baptized. "
00:13:49.76\00:13:51.26
Shelly: Amen... amen...
00:13:51.29\00:13:52.63
Michael: All right, but...
so the next day I was baptized
00:13:52.66\00:13:54.53
with a boyfriend
and a sexual addiction.
00:13:54.56\00:13:56.16
Shelly: Then you began a
process Michael: Thank you.
00:13:56.20\00:13:58.90
Shelly: A process began...
people don't understand...
00:13:58.93\00:14:01.57
it's not an
instant... or suddenly...
00:14:01.60\00:14:03.51
you began something and
that was what... 17 years ago?
00:14:03.54\00:14:06.91
Michael: Yeah,
so the event was...
00:14:06.94\00:14:08.61
is that... I went
into the water and came out
00:14:08.64\00:14:11.15
making an open profession
that I was following Jesus
00:14:11.18\00:14:14.42
and I'm sorry to say that
in my limited understanding,
00:14:14.45\00:14:17.42
I wasn't accepting an
invitation to be an Adventist,
00:14:17.45\00:14:20.36
I was accepting an
invitation to follow Jesus.
00:14:20.39\00:14:22.62
Jennifer: Which
should be the same thing.
00:14:22.66\00:14:24.39
Michael: Okay, but I think that
00:14:24.43\00:14:26.73
people really get
bent about... a little bit
00:14:26.76\00:14:29.16
is the
process... and I get it...
00:14:29.20\00:14:30.93
I don't think
that any pastor should
00:14:30.97\00:14:32.60
knowingly baptize
somebody who is openly gay...
00:14:32.63\00:14:35.40
but I believe that
God was using it in a way
00:14:35.44\00:14:38.11
to begin this journey with me,
00:14:38.14\00:14:40.54
"God's ways are not our ways
00:14:40.58\00:14:42.94
and His thoughts are
not our thoughts... "
00:14:42.98\00:14:44.31
so, all of a
sudden, I'm baptized now
00:14:44.35\00:14:46.55
and my boyfriend is telling me
00:14:46.58\00:14:47.92
that my church doesn't
believe in homosexual practice
00:14:47.95\00:14:50.52
and I said, "I don't care... "
00:14:50.55\00:14:51.89
but during that
time... the Lord...
00:14:51.92\00:14:53.92
I was experiencing Him in a way
00:14:53.96\00:14:56.19
that I never
experienced Him before
00:14:56.22\00:14:58.39
and it was invitational
and it was loving...
00:14:58.43\00:15:01.76
it wasn't at all
how I saw my father
00:15:01.80\00:15:04.63
and an example of what
I thought what God was,
00:15:04.70\00:15:07.17
this arbitrary God that
was looking to take me out
00:15:07.20\00:15:09.50
or to punish me and so,
00:15:09.54\00:15:11.47
I couldn't stop
following that kind of God
00:15:11.51\00:15:14.28
and eventually, I
prayed and I said,
00:15:14.31\00:15:16.75
"Lord, if you want me
out of that relationship,
00:15:16.81\00:15:18.15
you're going to have
to do it yourself... "
00:15:18.18\00:15:19.85
and three weeks
later, my boyfriend and I...
00:15:19.91\00:15:21.38
we were holding
each other and he said,
00:15:21.42\00:15:23.28
"You know, things have changed
and... and I need a break... "
00:15:23.32\00:15:25.55
and this peace
came over me and I knew
00:15:25.59\00:15:27.46
that the Lord had
intervened in my life.
00:15:27.49\00:15:29.06
David: Amen.
00:15:29.12\00:15:30.46
Michael: But the hard
part really came after that...
00:15:30.49\00:15:32.79
when I went home and
realized that I was alone...
00:15:32.83\00:15:35.33
and that if God
took away my boyfriend,
00:15:35.36\00:15:37.27
then He's telling me that...
00:15:37.30\00:15:38.63
that I can't
have another boyfriend
00:15:38.67\00:15:40.00
and so, I'm not straight...
my attractions haven't changed
00:15:40.04\00:15:43.41
and so I thought,
00:15:43.47\00:15:44.81
"Well, I'll never know what
it's like to love again... "
00:15:44.84\00:15:46.71
and during that
time, it was dark...
00:15:46.74\00:15:48.31
I couldn't share
it with my sister,
00:15:48.34\00:15:49.68
she would have been overjoyed...
00:15:49.71\00:15:51.05
I couldn't share with my friends
because they would have said,
00:15:51.08\00:15:53.31
"Mike, you're gay... go
back to your boyfriend. "
00:15:53.35\00:15:55.82
So, during that time, it
was just me and Jesus Christ
00:15:55.85\00:15:58.29
and I realize now
that through my sobs...
00:15:58.32\00:16:00.82
that it was Jesus
that was holding me
00:16:00.86\00:16:03.22
and I can even look
back and feel His presence
00:16:03.29\00:16:07.16
and that was Jesus
that was telling me
00:16:07.20\00:16:09.03
that He loved me,
00:16:09.06\00:16:10.70
and you know something?
00:16:10.73\00:16:12.07
There was great healing
during that time for me.
00:16:12.10\00:16:14.70
David: So... so,
Jesus brought you to a place
00:16:14.74\00:16:17.17
where you were alone with Him
00:16:17.21\00:16:19.41
so that He could love you.
00:16:19.44\00:16:21.54
Michael: Right... right...
because you know something?
00:16:21.58\00:16:23.65
I was so busy
filling my time with...
00:16:23.68\00:16:26.31
with any social
engagement that I could
00:16:26.35\00:16:28.92
because I really
hated to be alone
00:16:28.95\00:16:31.42
and to have look at
not only who I'd become
00:16:31.45\00:16:34.02
but also the fact that I was
this desperate, lonely person
00:16:34.06\00:16:37.29
even in the gay culture,
00:16:37.33\00:16:38.79
even when I was
surrounded by friends and lovers
00:16:38.83\00:16:41.76
that I thought loved
me and took care of me.
00:16:41.80\00:16:44.40
Jennifer: How much did the
conviction that this was wrong
00:16:44.43\00:16:49.10
fuel or enable or strengthen
you to make those changes?
00:16:49.14\00:16:53.78
Michael: Whew!
00:16:53.81\00:16:55.44
Jennifer: I
know, it's a hard one.
00:16:55.48\00:16:56.81
Michael: I went kicking
and screaming... you know,
00:16:56.85\00:16:58.18
some people say,
"Oh... it's like a...
00:16:58.21\00:16:59.55
you know, you flip the switch...
00:16:59.58\00:17:00.92
and okay... I'm going to
go in this direction... "
00:17:00.95\00:17:02.55
you know, I didn't
think that it was possible
00:17:02.58\00:17:04.75
and because of what I'd
been hearing from the world...
00:17:04.79\00:17:07.59
and then even...
because of examples
00:17:07.62\00:17:09.59
that I never saw in the church,
00:17:09.62\00:17:10.96
I didn't think it was possible
00:17:10.99\00:17:12.33
and so, I thought
that God would miraculously
00:17:12.36\00:17:14.73
have a magic wand
to hit me over the head
00:17:14.76\00:17:17.17
and I'd be straight...
00:17:17.20\00:17:18.53
ready to date,
mate and procreate...
00:17:18.57\00:17:20.54
but again, that didn't
happen and so I thought,
00:17:20.60\00:17:23.81
"I must be doing
something wrong... "
00:17:23.87\00:17:26.01
again, coming
from a works-oriented
00:17:26.04\00:17:28.14
you know... beginning or life
00:17:28.18\00:17:31.38
I thought that I had to be
good to deserve God's goodness
00:17:31.41\00:17:34.88
and so, in that
misunderstanding,
00:17:34.92\00:17:36.79
Jesus was so patient and
00:17:36.82\00:17:38.75
there were times
that I would even act out
00:17:38.79\00:17:40.56
because I was so used to
the rejection of my father,
00:17:40.59\00:17:43.06
the rejection of the
kids, the rejection of lovers
00:17:43.09\00:17:45.79
and the people that I
allowed to use me that I used,
00:17:45.83\00:17:48.26
it's like, I thought,
"It's just a matter of time
00:17:48.30\00:17:50.70
and Jesus is going
to get sick of me too
00:17:50.73\00:17:52.57
and so, I would act out sexually
and I would come back to God,
00:17:52.63\00:17:55.87
and I would just say,
00:17:55.90\00:17:57.24
"Well, that's who I
am... you still want me?"
00:17:57.27\00:18:00.24
And I did it defiantly and
rebelliously to basically say,
00:18:00.28\00:18:03.45
"Well, let's get this over
with because there's no way
00:18:03.48\00:18:06.55
that I'm going to be
everything you want to be. "
00:18:06.58\00:18:07.92
Jennifer: "You're
going to hate me now. "
00:18:07.95\00:18:09.28
Michael: Yeah, "If
you're going to hate me,
00:18:09.32\00:18:10.65
hate me now rather than later. "
00:18:10.69\00:18:12.02
And you know what?
What was so powerful
00:18:12.05\00:18:13.39
was that Jesus' answer to me
00:18:13.42\00:18:14.76
was the same every time, He
said, "I'm not rejecting you,
00:18:14.79\00:18:17.59
I'm staying... I've
already paid for that... "
00:18:17.63\00:18:20.50
Shelly: So you were trying to,
like create some self-rejection
00:18:20.53\00:18:24.20
and push away and
just push and push...
00:18:24.23\00:18:25.57
Michael: I was used to
that, every man in my life...
00:18:25.60\00:18:27.90
beginning with my
father... now, Jesus is a man...
00:18:27.94\00:18:30.21
so, doesn't it make sense?
00:18:30.24\00:18:32.01
And I think that the really sad
part of my sexual addiction was
00:18:32.04\00:18:35.34
was really the
fulfillment of Proverbs 27...
00:18:35.38\00:18:37.91
where it talks about...
00:18:37.98\00:18:39.31
that if you've had a full
meal, you don't eat dessert...
00:18:39.35\00:18:41.08
but to somebody who's starving,
00:18:41.12\00:18:42.75
even something
bitter will satisfy
00:18:42.78\00:18:44.89
and so, my
sexual addiction began
00:18:44.92\00:18:46.96
because I was just genuinely
wanting to be loved by a man,
00:18:46.99\00:18:50.13
but what I found is that it
wasn't satisfying that emptiness
00:18:50.16\00:18:53.26
and so, it began
this addictive drive
00:18:53.29\00:18:55.10
where I was acting
out three times a day
00:18:55.13\00:18:57.03
and as many times
as four times a week
00:18:57.07\00:18:58.93
and 20 years of that,
00:18:58.97\00:19:00.94
I had sex with
men unprotected...
00:19:00.97\00:19:02.87
and they'd be
dead three months later
00:19:02.90\00:19:04.74
and yet, that was never enough
to stop me from my behavior.
00:19:04.77\00:19:08.24
David: And so, you
wanted to be loved by a man
00:19:08.28\00:19:10.98
and a man loved
you... His name was Jesus.
00:19:11.01\00:19:13.65
Michael: And I can't believe...
what's so profound to me...
00:19:13.68\00:19:15.98
I can't believe
that the love of Jesus
00:19:16.02\00:19:18.42
is enough to keep me
from acting out sexually
00:19:18.45\00:19:21.59
when nothing else did.
00:19:21.62\00:19:22.96
I could have a man in my
bed and it still didn't stop me
00:19:22.99\00:19:26.39
but having Jesus in my heart
has been an experience where...
00:19:26.43\00:19:29.93
Jennifer: When you say,
"I could have a man... "
00:19:29.96\00:19:31.47
you could be a
couple with someone
00:19:31.50\00:19:33.64
and you would still go
outside that relationship...
00:19:33.70\00:19:35.27
Michael: Yeah, I still
couldn't be faithful...
00:19:35.30\00:19:36.64
David: Until Christ came in.
00:19:36.67\00:19:38.01
Shelly: Are you saying
it wasn't fulfilling enough?
00:19:38.04\00:19:40.54
It was empty... what...?
00:19:40.58\00:19:43.01
Michael: When I go back
to that person who I was,
00:19:43.04\00:19:45.05
I thought that it was...
00:19:45.08\00:19:46.41
I thought that, "Well, I
just didn't have any discipline"
00:19:46.45\00:19:49.82
and I wasn't going to
pass up an opportunity
00:19:49.85\00:19:53.02
it was kind of the
total... self-focused...
00:19:53.05\00:19:56.12
well... and part of it
was like taking care of myself
00:19:56.16\00:19:59.19
and again, because of so
much rejection in gay culture,
00:19:59.23\00:20:01.96
it's like, "You'd better
get what you're going to get...
00:20:02.00\00:20:04.80
because... pretty soon
you'll be bald and fat and old
00:20:04.83\00:20:07.64
and you're not going
to get any action... "
00:20:07.67\00:20:09.04
because... in gay culture...
00:20:09.07\00:20:10.41
by the time you're 30,
you're considered a "has been. "
00:20:10.44\00:20:13.04
You don't see anybody in
gay culture over 40 years old
00:20:13.07\00:20:15.84
because they've either died
00:20:15.88\00:20:17.48
or they don't go
out in public anymore,
00:20:17.55\00:20:19.45
it's a highly...
00:20:19.48\00:20:20.85
Jennifer: Visual...
Michael: Absolutely...
00:20:20.88\00:20:22.82
Jennifer: Which is...
men tend to be wired visually
00:20:22.88\00:20:25.35
in the sexual arena.
00:20:25.39\00:20:26.72
Michael: Exactly... exactly.
Jen: I have a question for you.
00:20:26.76\00:20:28.09
Michael: Yeah.
00:20:28.12\00:20:29.46
Jennifer: So you
came out... at what age?
00:20:29.49\00:20:30.99
You came out of the
lifestyle at what age?
00:20:31.03\00:20:32.46
Michael: 40...
00:20:32.49\00:20:33.83
Jennifer: came out of
the lifestyle at 40...
00:20:33.86\00:20:36.06
your high levels of hormones...
00:20:36.10\00:20:39.03
testosterone had tapered
off somewhat by that age...
00:20:39.07\00:20:41.67
and you successfully left...
00:20:41.70\00:20:43.27
Michael:
Really... really Jennifer...
00:20:43.30\00:20:45.67
even as a sexual addict
00:20:45.71\00:20:48.88
and even you can take
somebody who is a sexual addict
00:20:48.91\00:20:51.45
and you can make them a eunuch
but it doesn't change the mind
00:20:51.48\00:20:54.68
and my mind was so turned
00:20:54.72\00:20:56.42
towards sexual and
sensualized things that...
00:20:56.45\00:20:58.59
Jennifer: So tell
us about the battle.
00:20:58.62\00:21:00.69
Michael: Okay, well
let me give you an example.
00:21:00.72\00:21:02.79
It was after the Lord
had removed the boyfriend
00:21:02.82\00:21:04.63
I made sure that I was home
00:21:04.66\00:21:06.19
every Thursday
night by 8 o'clock
00:21:06.23\00:21:07.60
"Will and Grace" right,
that was my favorite show
00:21:07.63\00:21:09.96
and I always had
straight-girl roommates
00:21:10.00\00:21:12.40
so it was a gay man
00:21:12.43\00:21:13.84
with a roommate
that was a straight girl
00:21:13.87\00:21:15.67
and all the antics that they
would get into... it was my life
00:21:15.70\00:21:18.14
and so, here I am,
walking with the Lord
00:21:18.17\00:21:20.21
and on Thursday night,
at 8 o'clock, there I am...
00:21:20.24\00:21:22.54
and so, I'm sitting
and watching it one night
00:21:22.58\00:21:24.81
and the Holy Spirit says,
"Mike, what are you doing?"
00:21:24.85\00:21:26.68
I'm like, "I'm just
watching my favorite program"
00:21:26.72\00:21:28.52
and the Lord says,
00:21:28.55\00:21:29.88
"How can I help
you move out of this
00:21:29.92\00:21:31.99
if you keep
sticking your foot in it?"
00:21:32.02\00:21:34.26
And I had to make
a decision that night
00:21:34.29\00:21:36.46
and it's a very simplistic
answer to your question
00:21:36.49\00:21:38.89
but I had to decide to get
the television out of my house,
00:21:38.93\00:21:41.90
I am so wired visually...
I could be on the internet,
00:21:41.93\00:21:45.07
I lived in the
neighborhood where...
00:21:45.10\00:21:46.84
in Orlando, Florida,
00:21:46.87\00:21:48.30
where I could be in a
gay bar within two miles...
00:21:48.34\00:21:50.51
five gay bars in two miles...
00:21:50.54\00:21:51.87
and so, if I didn't feel like
getting in the car to go out,
00:21:51.91\00:21:55.41
I could actually
get on the internet
00:21:55.44\00:21:56.78
and have an illicit situation
at my house in 15 minutes,
00:21:56.81\00:21:59.51
this is how I had lived my life
00:21:59.55\00:22:01.88
and so, now, you know,
00:22:01.92\00:22:04.09
that was a really difficult time
00:22:04.12\00:22:06.05
learning to
disconnect all of that.
00:22:06.09\00:22:07.99
Jennifer: So was it that
Jesus' love came into your life
00:22:08.19\00:22:10.56
and it really
displaced those cravings,
00:22:10.59\00:22:12.23
so is that kind
of how that worked,
00:22:12.26\00:22:13.86
or was it also you just having
to really put the brakes on,
00:22:13.90\00:22:16.40
put blinders on when
you drove by those gay bars
00:22:16.43\00:22:18.60
or was it a
combination of those two things?
00:22:18.63\00:22:20.54
Michael: Mind knuckling was
never my forte, that's right,
00:22:20.57\00:22:23.71
I wasn't
disciplined enough to do that
00:22:23.74\00:22:26.27
but what really was
miraculous for me was when
00:22:26.31\00:22:30.15
somebody unpacked
Philippians 2 verse 5
00:22:30.18\00:22:33.25
and I'll give an example.
00:22:33.28\00:22:35.28
One day I was
stepping into the shower
00:22:35.35\00:22:37.79
and hope you'll
forgive my graphicness
00:22:37.82\00:22:39.89
but I was
stepping into the shower
00:22:39.92\00:22:42.06
and I had many months of victory
00:22:42.09\00:22:43.96
over
masturbation and pornography,
00:22:43.99\00:22:45.76
and I was sitting
there surrounded by soap
00:22:45.79\00:22:47.66
and you can imagine
where my mind was going
00:22:47.70\00:22:49.26
and this thought
comes right into my head
00:22:49.30\00:22:50.83
to just take care of business
but then... just then...
00:22:50.87\00:22:53.70
I'd heard about
Philippians 2 verse 5
00:22:53.74\00:22:55.10
and the Holy Spirit
spoke to me, He says,
00:22:55.17\00:22:56.54
"Mike, claim the promise"
I'm like, "What promise?"
00:22:56.57\00:22:58.81
and He says, "Let the
mind of Christ in you"
00:22:58.84\00:23:01.21
right, "Let this mind be in you,
which was in Christ Jesus. "
00:23:01.24\00:23:04.51
Well, Jesus doesn't indulge
in masturbation and pornography
00:23:04.55\00:23:07.75
and so, just
then, as I'm struggling
00:23:07.78\00:23:09.55
because I loved my
sin... no doubt about it,
00:23:09.58\00:23:12.29
if I didn't love my sin,
00:23:12.35\00:23:13.69
that wouldn't be
a temptation for me.
00:23:13.72\00:23:15.06
So now the struggle is going on
00:23:15.09\00:23:16.42
where, this is
calling for my allegiance
00:23:16.46\00:23:18.43
but so is my Savior
00:23:18.46\00:23:19.79
and because of the relationship
that I have with Him,
00:23:19.83\00:23:22.10
because of the fact that He
had been more faithful to me
00:23:22.13\00:23:24.10
than I was to Him,
00:23:24.13\00:23:25.47
I didn't want to hurt Him again
00:23:25.50\00:23:27.10
and so, just in that
moment, as I was struggling...
00:23:27.14\00:23:29.94
"Do I go this way or this
way" and the choice is mine
00:23:30.01\00:23:32.77
God will always
respect my choice,
00:23:32.81\00:23:34.74
I said, "Lord, I
give you permission
00:23:34.81\00:23:36.61
to take these thoughts
00:23:36.64\00:23:37.98
because if you don't, I'm
going to indulge right now,
00:23:38.01\00:23:39.38
and just then, my next conscious
thought was about baseball
00:23:39.41\00:23:43.18
and I hate baseball...
00:23:43.22\00:23:44.72
what was so amazing is
that the promise worked.
00:23:44.75\00:23:47.36
I didn't have time
to pray for two days,
00:23:47.42\00:23:49.62
I didn't have time to
go on a three-day fast...
00:23:49.66\00:23:51.86
I needed it... and the
Lord started to show me
00:23:51.89\00:23:54.10
tools to give me victory.
00:23:54.13\00:23:55.46
David: This is key,
this is very powerful.
00:23:55.50\00:23:58.17
In the same
chapter... in Philippians 2:13,
00:23:58.23\00:24:00.87
Paul says, "It is
God who works in you
00:24:00.90\00:24:04.01
both to will and to do
of His good pleasure. "
00:24:04.04\00:24:07.18
And you heard the
call of Jesus saying,
00:24:07.21\00:24:10.95
"Invite me to take
over your thoughts...
00:24:10.98\00:24:13.11
your minds... your mind... "
00:24:13.15\00:24:16.02
Michael: You said,
"When you did that... "
00:24:16.05\00:24:17.75
David: Yeah, yes...
00:24:17.79\00:24:19.59
and God became
very intimate with you
00:24:19.65\00:24:21.46
and as you gave yourself over
to the very presence of Jesus,
00:24:21.49\00:24:25.63
He was able to
take over your thoughts.
00:24:25.69\00:24:27.73
Michael: Wow! wow...
00:24:27.76\00:24:29.50
Jennifer: So...
Michael: That's powerful.
00:24:29.53\00:24:31.23
Jennifer: Very cool...
00:24:31.27\00:24:32.60
what would you give to people
that are questioning right now,
00:24:32.63\00:24:35.97
they have same-sex attraction,
they're considering your options
00:24:36.00\00:24:39.57
what would you
say on behalf of...
00:24:39.61\00:24:42.21
what's good about the
choice that you've made?
00:24:42.24\00:24:44.31
Michael: Good...
wow! you know something?
00:24:44.35\00:24:46.82
Regardless of the fact
that I don't have this...
00:24:46.85\00:24:49.65
this issue of AIDS
hanging over my head
00:24:49.68\00:24:52.19
like it did for 20 years,
00:24:52.22\00:24:53.56
because it
wasn't enough to stop me
00:24:53.59\00:24:55.06
but this abiding peace
that I've never known before...
00:24:55.09\00:24:58.09
this dichotomy that I
used to be these two people,
00:24:58.13\00:25:00.80
like, I used to be this
really nice guy on the outside
00:25:00.83\00:25:03.47
but then, I was a
sexual addict on the inside
00:25:03.50\00:25:06.60
and it's like, God
brings all of that together
00:25:06.63\00:25:09.70
and what's so beautiful
00:25:09.74\00:25:11.07
is that, at
night when I go to bed,
00:25:11.11\00:25:12.54
He's the last person I talk to
00:25:12.57\00:25:14.24
and I can finally share with Him
all of the dirty, ugly details
00:25:14.28\00:25:18.08
of how I got
slimed during the day...
00:25:18.11\00:25:19.88
things that I chose to look at
00:25:19.91\00:25:21.28
or things that I
remembered from the past
00:25:21.35\00:25:23.65
and as I lay them before Him,
00:25:23.69\00:25:25.42
I don't fear
condemnation or rejection
00:25:25.45\00:25:27.82
instead, what I
get is affirmation,
00:25:27.86\00:25:30.16
forgiveness, cleansing...
00:25:30.19\00:25:31.56
and then in the
morning when I wake up
00:25:31.59\00:25:33.33
He's the first one to wake me up
00:25:33.40\00:25:34.83
with a beautiful hymn or a song
00:25:34.86\00:25:36.20
and that to me has been
the most valuable thing...
00:25:36.23\00:25:40.04
I think is... is
knowing that I'm not alone,
00:25:40.10\00:25:42.10
is that, no matter
where I am or what's going on,
00:25:42.14\00:25:44.47
that He wants
His abiding presence
00:25:44.51\00:25:46.64
and learning the process of that
which has been very difficult
00:25:46.68\00:25:49.51
and I don't have that down yet
00:25:49.54\00:25:51.25
but I tell you what I've
experienced in the last 17 years
00:25:51.28\00:25:54.42
is enough to
keep me going today.
00:25:54.48\00:25:56.38
Jennifer: Because
what keeps a lot of people
00:25:56.42\00:25:57.99
from leaving the lifestyle is
00:25:58.02\00:25:59.39
if they're not going to have
their same-sex relationship...
00:25:59.45\00:26:01.99
they can't even fathom having
an opposite-sex relationship
00:26:02.02\00:26:04.56
but you're
saying... you don't either
00:26:04.59\00:26:06.39
and you're not necessarily
closed to that possibility
00:26:06.43\00:26:09.96
but it's not
happening in any big way, right?
00:26:10.03\00:26:11.93
But you're still
content... where you're at.
00:26:11.97\00:26:13.87
Michael: That's been amazing.
00:26:13.90\00:26:15.30
Jennifer: And you can
recommend it to someone else.
00:26:15.34\00:26:16.67
Michael: Absolutely.
00:26:16.71\00:26:18.04
Shelly: Michael, you
have a ministry called...
00:26:18.07\00:26:19.41
Michael: 'Coming out' Ministries
00:26:19.44\00:26:20.78
Shelly: 'Coming Out' Ministries
00:26:20.81\00:26:22.21
you guys just
recently put a project together
00:26:22.24\00:26:24.15
that's going to help so many
people... and it's called...?
00:26:24.18\00:26:27.48
Michael: "Journey
Interrupted" it's a documentary
00:26:27.52\00:26:29.55
showing the lives of
five different people...
00:26:29.58\00:26:31.59
David: "Journey Interrupted"
00:26:31.65\00:26:33.15
Michael: Ah ha, not just the
3 colleagues that I work with
00:26:33.19\00:26:35.12
but also, what we call...
kind of like a "plot twist"
00:26:35.16\00:26:38.39
of a very dear friend of ours
00:26:38.43\00:26:40.33
that's also in the
valley of decision.
00:26:40.40\00:26:41.93
Shelly: How do people
reach out to your ministry
00:26:41.96\00:26:45.67
if they want counseling
specific to this issue,
00:26:45.70\00:26:49.37
because we're not trying to
00:26:49.40\00:26:50.74
create the idea
of hate or judgment
00:26:50.77\00:26:53.17
but if someone is struggling
00:26:53.21\00:26:54.64
and wants to
pursue... 'Coming out'
00:26:54.68\00:26:57.65
what do they do?
00:26:57.68\00:26:59.15
Michael: Come to our website,
ComingOutMinistries. org
00:26:59.18\00:27:03.18
and if you're
interested in watching
00:27:03.25\00:27:04.85
the trailer to the video,
it's: journeyinterrupted. com
00:27:04.89\00:27:07.99
Jennifer: We're so thankful that
you joined us for this Program.
00:27:08.02\00:27:11.69
We've talked about some things
00:27:11.73\00:27:13.06
that are very, very
loaded politically...
00:27:13.09\00:27:16.10
they're loaded emotionally,
they're loaded spiritually
00:27:16.13\00:27:18.93
and we just ask that you
consider what you've heard
00:27:19.00\00:27:21.77
and that if you're curious,
00:27:21.80\00:27:23.97
you would like to
pursue these ideas,
00:27:24.01\00:27:26.57
contact Coming Out
Ministries and learn more.
00:27:26.61\00:27:29.61
Jesus has given us life
00:27:29.64\00:27:32.81
and He wants to give us
life and life... more abundantly
00:27:32.85\00:27:37.02
and He promises to give us
more satisfying kinds of love
00:27:37.05\00:27:40.42
that any of us would be
able to choose for ourselves
00:27:40.46\00:27:43.79
and I think we are
all broken sexually
00:27:43.83\00:27:46.39
and we're all off on that point
00:27:46.43\00:27:48.43
and we all need
more of Jesus' love
00:27:48.46\00:27:50.63
whether we're coming from a
heterosexual or a homosexual
00:27:50.67\00:27:52.97
or whatever background
00:27:53.00\00:27:54.34
so let's all lay our
lives down on the altar
00:27:54.37\00:27:56.91
and come to know that love
that is beyond understanding.
00:27:56.94\00:28:00.44