We are breaking
the silence today
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on A Multitude of Counselors
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and filling it
with good counsel.
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We have a really
interesting topic for you today,
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it's "His Addiction or Mine"
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His Addiction or Mine.
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We're not going to be
talking about addiction per se
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but we're going to be
talking about what happens...
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well I guess, we are going
to be talking about addiction
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but we're going to be talking
about what happens to people
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in relationship with
people with substance addictions
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or other kinds of addictions
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because we find
that that addicts
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are masters at conditioning
the people around them
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to accommodate the
addiction and so we can end up
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codependent and enabling
without even knowing it.
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Let's talk about
some prevalence here...
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one study says that the
prevalence of all addictions
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in the US is
about 15 to 61 percent
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with alcohol- and drug-addiction
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being about 10 and 5
percent respectively.
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Someone did some research
and estimated codependency
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as affecting 96 percent of women
at some point in their lifetime,
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96 percent... whoa...
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that's kind of
incriminating, isn't it Ladies?
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What's the cause
of all this unrest?
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Typically we become codependent
because we want to hang on
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to the
relationship with the addict.
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So, is there hope?
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Well, the codependent...
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if they are willing to
lay that relationship down
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at the foot of the
cross... the altar before God...
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can experience recovery
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and I think that
one very good addition
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to prayer and seeking the Lord
and trusting in His presence
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in one's life...
in reading His Word...
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and having a good social network
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and maybe seeing a
professional counselor...
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one really good addition
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that can help
people with codependency,
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is a support group...
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because sometimes
in a support group,
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people will see your blind spots
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but it's a safe
place generally speaking...
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where they can call you out
on things that you might not see
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on your own,
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so we're going
to be hearing today
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from the lovely
Juliet Van Heerden
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who is an author and a
mom and a wife and a speaker
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and she has
really made it her focus
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to help people through
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some of the things
she's been through herself
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so welcome to our
Program, Juliet...
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Juliet: Thank you... thank you.
Jennifer: I'm so glad you're
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here sorry about the
plane ride yesterday.
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Juliet: Thanks.
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Jennifer: She went
on a little, tiny plane
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and we're so thankful also
to have our Panel of Counselors.
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We have Shelly Wiggins...
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a Licensed Professional
Counselor from Michigan,
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we have Christina Cecotto,
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Professional
Counselor from Georgia
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and we have Dr. Jean Wright
from Philadelphia... yeah...!
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and so we're so thankful
to have each one of you here
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let's get into
our subject at hand...
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what do you mean by...
"His Addiction or Mine?"
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There's a story
here, I can feel it.
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Juliet: There is
definitely a story...
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I was married...
almost 13 years...
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to man who was
addicted to cocaine.
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We were in church
together nearly every week
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and we had a lot of problems
but people didn't know that
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because I created a great facade
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of a "perfect
Christian family. "
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Jennifer: You're all
talking about... it's like,
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"Yeah, I lived in the
green house down the road...
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di... di... di...
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Juliet: So, I
thought that because he had
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the "real addiction" that
I didn't have any problems
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and that got me
into a lot of trouble.
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I started attending a
Recovery Group to support him
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and I learned that
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there was a name for my
rescuing and enabling...
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and that role I
played as a victim
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and then I would persecute him,
and then I would rescue him...
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I was on just as much
of a sick cycle as he was.
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Jennifer: What was the name?
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Juliet: Codependency...
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Jennifer: Okay, this is a thing.
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Juliet: It's a
thing... it had a name...
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I was surprised
to discover that.
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Jennifer: I thought
maybe you had a new name
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because you're so
creative and stuff...
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Juliet: No...
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Jennifer: I'm like,
waiting for that... but yeah...
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so you figured
out it was a "thing. "
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Juliet: Yes... and I had it...
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and my codependency manifested
as "Perfectionism and Control"
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a lot of control...
because I didn't want the facade
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that I had kind of built to
work very hard to maintain...
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I didn't want that to
crumble and so I controlled him
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and I controlled our life
as much as I possibly could
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and then I also
began to be a workaholic
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in order to avoid
what was going on at home
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so, eventually,
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his addiction got so out
of hand it took him to prison
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and my addiction
got so out of hand
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that I was... I was really
becoming unhealthy inside myself
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and I started seeking treatment
and recovery for myself
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apart from anything
that had to do with him...
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and I still... I still
am participating... yes.
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Jennifer: You're
still in recovery
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and we never mean to give
the impression on this Program
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that people are completely fixed
and fine and everything is good,
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we're all in the
process of recovery...
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but what was the
buy-in... what was the...
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what did you enjoy about it?
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Because in order for
there to be an addiction,
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there has to be
some kind of pay off,
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you know, for us to be
in an unhealthy situation,
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there has to be
something we like about it,
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what... did you
ever analyze that or...?
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Juliet: Well, I mean, I
just... I liked my life...
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what I thought was "my life... "
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what I wanted to be my life...
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and I had made a
vow as a young person...
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as a child... actually...
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product of
divorce... multiple times...
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that I would never divorce...
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so, part of... I don't know
if you would call it a "buy-in"
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but it was just a
vow that I made to myself
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that I was going
to hold on to this
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for as long as I
possibly could...
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basically until
death do us part...
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if my codependency
killed me, I was willing...
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I was that kind of
a bull dog person...
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willing to hold on to that...
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because of the
promise I made to myself
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that I wouldn't become
a statistic of divorce...
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Jennifer: This is going
to be really confrontational
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and I'm known for
this... but... are you...
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was there some element of
self-righteousness in that...
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were you willing to
be that transparent...
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or you're like,
"Mom and Dad messed me up
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and I'm not going to
do the same thing... "
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Juliet: Of
course... of course...
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Jennifer: Okay,
thank you for your honesty.
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Juliet: Pride and
self-righteousness...
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all of that.
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Jennifer: Hmmm... do
you guys, as Counselors,
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do you run into this
where people have made vows
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and the vows
become unsustainable,
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do you ever run into that?
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Yeah, when you try to get them
to figure out what they're...
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was it an actual
thing you remember doing
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or was it conscious
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or was it just like
kind of... unconsciously?
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Juliet: Oh no... I remembered...
"I'm not going to do this. "
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Shelly: At what point
did you make the decision
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that you wanted
out of the relationship
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that when there was
an addiction on one end
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and the
codependency on your part
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and then you said, your life...
your health started to fail...
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what led to you finally saying,
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"I need to... I
need to be out... "
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I mean, because in
the Christian context,
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this is a taboo
topic... so let's go there.
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Juliet: I know, I struggled
with it for a long time
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even after I
felt in my spirit...
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in my communication
with God that He released me
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because of some choices
that my first husband made,
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I still hung on
for a while longer
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and then I just realized
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it takes two
people to have a marriage
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and I don't
actually have a marriage
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and I felt... I
felt free to move forward
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and have life
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and life
abundantly... as Jesus promised
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and I could
not... and was not...
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and was actually choosing to sin
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by being or
trying to be his savior.
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Jennifer:
Hmmm... that's intense...
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Jean: It is.
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Jennifer: So you... you...
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you were trying to be something
to him that only God...
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so, in a way, you
were blaspheming...
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I mean, if I'm going to put
it in the worst construct...
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you know... trying
to be "God" to someone.
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Juliet: I prolonged the agony.
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Christina: So explain
what you were just saying
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that you were trying
to be "God" to him...
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what did that look like.
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Juliet: Well, I tried
to be his "Holy Spirit... "
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I tried to
control what he was doing,
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I tried to convict
him, I tried to judge him,
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I... I was trying to be
inside his head all the time
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and figure him out.
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My whole life centered on,
"Was he using or not using?"
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"Was he lying to me
or not lying to me?"
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"What was he
hiding?" "Was he...?"
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It was all about him.
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Jennifer: You
were the detective.
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Juliet: Yes, I
was the detective,
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I was his mother, I was his...
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Shelly: Sounds exhausting.
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Juliet: It was
exhausting, it was exhausting
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and I wasn't
taking care of "me" at all
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and I wasn't able to have a real
relationship with Christ myself
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because I was... even my prayers
were codependent prayers,
00:09:36.81\00:09:41.68
you know, it was
sick... really sick.
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Christina: How
did he react to that?
00:09:43.81\00:09:45.81
With you trying to be his
mother... trying to convict,
00:09:45.85\00:09:48.68
trying to
control? Did that fix him?
00:09:48.72\00:09:52.15
Juliet: "Did it fix him?" No...
00:09:52.19\00:09:55.19
Shelly: Or do you think it drove
him further into his addiction?
00:09:55.22\00:09:57.19
Not saying the
blame thing... I'm just...
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Juliet: Once I backed off and
let logical consequences happen
00:10:01.10\00:10:04.80
because when people are allowed
to make their own choices
00:10:04.83\00:10:08.47
and suffer the result of them,
00:10:08.74\00:10:10.07
nature takes its course
00:10:10.11\00:10:12.21
and once I backed off
00:10:12.27\00:10:14.34
and stopped trying to
do everything that I did,
00:10:14.38\00:10:17.58
he was able to experience
some logical consequences
00:10:17.65\00:10:20.78
which actually took him to a
place where he could get clean.
00:10:20.82\00:10:23.82
I mean, prison isn't the
place you really want to go
00:10:23.85\00:10:26.89
but if it's going to
help you to get clean,
00:10:26.96\00:10:29.62
maybe that's where
Jesus needs to allow you to go
00:10:29.66\00:10:32.19
and I was busy trying to
keep that from happening.
00:10:32.23\00:10:34.40
Jennifer: Yeah,
you kept stepping
00:10:34.46\00:10:35.80
between him and
his consequences.
00:10:35.83\00:10:37.17
Juliet: Yeah.
00:10:37.20\00:10:38.53
Jennifer: So at some point
you made the conscious decision,
00:10:38.57\00:10:40.44
"I'm backing out...
even though this is...
00:10:40.47\00:10:42.57
I'm so
conditioned to doing this,
00:10:42.60\00:10:44.34
I'm so used to doing this,
this is second nature to me
00:10:44.37\00:10:46.37
I'm going to intentionally
back out of this role
00:10:46.41\00:10:48.84
and then, he was
able to connect the dots.
00:10:48.88\00:10:50.91
Juliet: Yes,
hmmm... hmmm... I was afraid
00:10:50.95\00:10:53.98
I was afraid of
the facade coming down,
00:10:54.02\00:10:57.02
I was a teacher
in our community,
00:10:57.05\00:10:58.99
I didn't want my last name
on the front pages of the paper,
00:10:59.02\00:11:02.46
I didn't want the
police involved in my life
00:11:02.49\00:11:04.93
but I remember at
some point, I just said,
00:11:04.99\00:11:07.40
"I don't care anymore... "
00:11:07.43\00:11:08.83
I... I called the cops myself
00:11:08.86\00:11:10.97
and gave him his
license plate number,
00:11:11.00\00:11:13.17
at one point in
time, I just said,
00:11:13.20\00:11:15.47
"I'm tired of living this lie. "
00:11:15.50\00:11:17.71
Jean: You know, I
find it interesting,
00:11:17.77\00:11:19.11
if you don't mind going back
to a statement Jennifer made
00:11:19.14\00:11:21.11
about what you
were getting out of it
00:11:21.14\00:11:22.48
and what triggered in my
brain was "secondary gain"
00:11:22.51\00:11:24.91
and I've dealt
with a lot of addictions
00:11:24.95\00:11:27.25
in terms of
people that I've treated
00:11:27.32\00:11:29.28
and they all had
a secondary gain,
00:11:29.32\00:11:31.25
there was something that may
not have been under the surface
00:11:31.29\00:11:33.42
that they didn't realize
they were getting out of it
00:11:33.46\00:11:34.86
you mentioned some of the things
00:11:34.89\00:11:36.79
of being "God"
to him and all those
00:11:36.83\00:11:38.69
but at some point,
as you stated, Jennifer,
00:11:38.86\00:11:41.30
the addiction had a
pleasurable moment at some point
00:11:41.33\00:11:43.93
and I'm wondering...
00:11:43.97\00:11:45.73
at what point did you realize
00:11:45.77\00:11:47.37
that this is going in
the opposite direction?
00:11:47.40\00:11:48.97
Was there a point in
time where everything was good
00:11:49.00\00:11:50.57
and everything was going well
00:11:50.61\00:11:52.17
or was there an addiction
from the very beginning
00:11:52.21\00:11:53.64
of your relationship?
00:11:53.68\00:11:55.01
Juliet: Ah...
it's a good question...
00:11:55.04\00:11:58.11
and I think, honestly,
00:11:58.15\00:12:00.15
because I had a
chaotic childhood,
00:12:00.18\00:12:02.48
I always had the
codependent tendencies
00:12:02.52\00:12:05.49
that come from
children of alcoholic families
00:12:05.52\00:12:08.96
or other issues in
your family of origin
00:12:09.02\00:12:13.83
so, I always had these
control things going on,
00:12:13.86\00:12:18.40
it's just that...
00:12:18.43\00:12:19.77
Jennifer: You feel
like a moth to the flame...
00:12:19.80\00:12:21.14
to that
dysfunctional relationship.
00:12:21.17\00:12:22.57
Juliet: Yes... it's just that
00:12:22.60\00:12:24.01
when I was married to someone
with a chemical dependency,
00:12:24.04\00:12:28.18
it just kind of
exposed it all the more.
00:12:28.21\00:12:30.81
Jennifer: Where is
the hope, Counselors...
00:12:30.85\00:12:33.42
when people know
they've been raised
00:12:33.48\00:12:35.25
in dysfunctional environments,
00:12:35.28\00:12:36.62
we know that if I
build my personality
00:12:36.65\00:12:38.65
in an abnormal
context, that becomes my normal
00:12:38.69\00:12:41.76
and I'm going to
seek out my normal
00:12:41.79\00:12:43.32
so I can function as I am...
00:12:43.36\00:12:45.13
we all know this as Counselors,
00:12:45.19\00:12:46.90
we see it all the time
00:12:46.96\00:12:48.30
and in ourselves, even,
00:12:48.33\00:12:49.96
so what do we tell people,
00:12:50.00\00:12:51.47
how do we help
them not repeat history?
00:12:51.53\00:12:53.87
Can people change
the course of history
00:12:53.90\00:12:56.17
and intentionally place
themselves in healthy situations
00:12:56.20\00:13:00.24
how... how... tell
me... what do you think?
00:13:00.28\00:13:02.34
Hard question.
00:13:02.41\00:13:03.75
Well, I think, looking
at your family dynamics
00:13:03.78\00:13:07.25
and... from a family
system's perspective...
00:13:07.32\00:13:10.95
a lot of times
I'll have people do
00:13:10.99\00:13:13.05
what's called
the "Family Genogram"
00:13:13.09\00:13:15.06
we look at three or four
generations in the patterns
00:13:15.09\00:13:19.49
and to just... just to
have them look at a picture
00:13:19.56\00:13:23.77
of what does their life look
like on paper... generationally
00:13:23.80\00:13:27.44
and just to kind of own some
of the themes and the patterns
00:13:27.47\00:13:31.11
and to say, "Okay,
which ones do I want to keep,
00:13:31.14\00:13:34.01
which ones do I want to say,
00:13:34.04\00:13:36.44
'In Jesus' name no
more and it stops here?"
00:13:36.48\00:13:39.68
Jennifer: Amen, and I
love that and just to clarify
00:13:39.71\00:13:42.28
a "Genogram" or a
"Genogram" is like a family tree
00:13:42.32\00:13:44.52
and what you do is
that you map out the family
00:13:44.55\00:13:46.45
and then you find out
where the depression is
00:13:46.49\00:13:48.29
and where the addiction
is and what the relationships
00:13:48.32\00:13:50.46
and there's all
these symbols you use
00:13:50.49\00:13:51.83
and you can see at a glance
00:13:51.86\00:13:53.19
the pathologies of that
family, so you're saying,
00:13:53.23\00:13:55.46
"A moral review of one's family
can be very, very beneficial. "
00:13:55.50\00:13:59.73
Shelly: Right,
because if there's...
00:13:59.77\00:14:01.10
if there's... let's
say, alcohol or codependency
00:14:01.14\00:14:04.21
or depression or suicide
00:14:04.24\00:14:06.57
coming from three
generations down the trail...
00:14:06.61\00:14:09.71
then, you need
to be able to say,
00:14:09.74\00:14:12.75
"All right, I'm
going to be very poignant,
00:14:12.78\00:14:14.98
or I want to take
a concerted effort...
00:14:15.02\00:14:16.99
and I'm going to
educate myself in this area
00:14:17.02\00:14:19.45
and I'm going to
get some counseling
00:14:19.49\00:14:20.96
and I'm going to have some
accountability in this area
00:14:20.99\00:14:23.06
and I'm going to guard myself,
00:14:23.09\00:14:25.09
we have people hold
me in check... and say,
00:14:25.16\00:14:28.00
'You know, if I
see you going there,
00:14:28.03\00:14:29.93
you've shared with me...
this is in your family line'"
00:14:29.96\00:14:33.70
you know...
00:14:33.74\00:14:35.07
Jennifer: Amen, there's
a key element here, though,
00:14:35.10\00:14:37.37
because we talked about vows
a minute ago... and just saying,
00:14:37.41\00:14:40.31
"I'm not going
to repeat history"
00:14:40.34\00:14:41.68
isn't enough, we have to say,
00:14:41.71\00:14:43.04
"Jesus, help me
not repeat history"
00:14:43.08\00:14:45.31
and then, take
the appropriate steps
00:14:45.35\00:14:47.65
to...
00:14:47.68\00:14:49.02
Shelly: You need the awareness
first that you need Jesus' help.
00:14:49.05\00:14:50.69
Jennifer: That's
right... that's right.
00:14:50.75\00:14:52.19
Juliet: And the Bible
has this principle of...
00:14:52.22\00:14:54.26
"To the third and
fourth generation... "
00:14:54.29\00:14:55.66
or... you know... to break...
00:14:55.69\00:14:57.39
"I come against
this in the name of Jesus
00:14:57.43\00:14:59.96
and I bring the
cross of Jesus Christ
00:15:00.00\00:15:02.46
between me and this
historical pattern in my family,
00:15:02.50\00:15:05.43
it is broken... "
00:15:05.47\00:15:06.80
And Shelly used a
beautiful analogy once about...
00:15:06.84\00:15:11.11
"Here's your
timeline of your life,
00:15:11.14\00:15:13.07
here's the cross...
00:15:13.11\00:15:14.44
and everything behind
the cross is what happened
00:15:14.48\00:15:18.21
and from here
forward... I've erected...
00:15:18.28\00:15:19.98
the cross is erected here...
00:15:20.02\00:15:21.58
from here forward,
it's me walking with Jesus,
00:15:21.62\00:15:23.49
away... from those things...
" Shelly: From all of that.
00:15:23.52\00:15:25.65
Jennifer: Yeah, yes,
amen and I love that.
00:15:25.69\00:15:27.02
Christina: And I think setting
boundaries is very crucial
00:15:27.06\00:15:29.36
when it comes to codependency
00:15:29.39\00:15:31.13
and not being that
enabler any longer...
00:15:31.19\00:15:33.86
I mean, of course,
that's easier said than done,
00:15:33.90\00:15:35.90
right, but what are
those little boundaries?
00:15:35.96\00:15:37.77
What are those
basic steps that can be...
00:15:37.80\00:15:39.57
that someone can start
with to begin to make a change
00:15:39.60\00:15:42.60
in the patterns
of the relationship?
00:15:42.64\00:15:44.74
She made a very... what
I love about you is that
00:15:44.77\00:15:48.58
you're very honest
about your own sin,
00:15:48.61\00:15:50.15
you know, you're not...
00:15:50.18\00:15:51.61
like so many lovely women
00:15:51.65\00:15:53.01
who've been in a
relationship with an addict...
00:15:53.05\00:15:54.95
who go walking out that
relationship... crying...
00:15:54.98\00:15:56.85
"Oh, my life was so terrible,
00:15:56.89\00:15:58.99
I was married to a
cocaine addict... "
00:15:59.02\00:16:00.56
and everybody
would be on your side,
00:16:00.62\00:16:02.06
and nobody would question you...
00:16:02.12\00:16:03.46
they'd say, "That bad guy... "
00:16:03.49\00:16:04.83
you could get total
social support for that
00:16:04.86\00:16:07.00
but instead, you're saying,
00:16:07.03\00:16:08.90
"Mea culpa, I had
an addiction too... "
00:16:08.96\00:16:12.50
and you're being honest
and I love that about you.
00:16:12.53\00:16:14.97
And so, it's very
important because that...
00:16:15.00\00:16:17.57
taking moral responsibility
is what gives power
00:16:17.61\00:16:20.14
to the kind of life,
00:16:20.18\00:16:22.28
major "size-matic" life change
that we're talking about here.
00:16:22.31\00:16:25.51
So, I affirm you for that,
in case you didn't pick that up.
00:16:25.55\00:16:28.45
Juliet: Thank you very
much... I'll take it...
00:16:28.48\00:16:31.75
I didn't come easily to
that... to that place...
00:16:31.79\00:16:35.02
it took a lot of...
00:16:35.06\00:16:36.39
Jennifer: Really?
00:16:36.42\00:16:37.76
Juliet: Oh, yes, I mean,
00:16:37.79\00:16:39.13
it took a lot of
years of sitting in meetings
00:16:39.16\00:16:42.76
with other people who
struggled with addiction
00:16:42.80\00:16:46.97
and saying, "My
name is Juliet...
00:16:47.00\00:16:48.90
I'm a believer in the Lord Jesus
00:16:48.94\00:16:50.77
but I struggle with codependency
00:16:50.81\00:16:52.57
and it looks like
perfectionism in control. "
00:16:52.61\00:16:55.04
Shelly: Hmmm... hmmm...
00:16:55.08\00:16:56.41
Juliet: It took a long time
for me to be able to say that
00:16:56.44\00:16:58.75
in a safe small setting
00:16:58.78\00:17:00.92
and then to be able to
go public and say that.
00:17:00.95\00:17:04.85
Jennifer: What
gave you the courage?
00:17:04.89\00:17:07.02
Juliet: The Lord laid on
my heart to write my story
00:17:07.06\00:17:11.59
to share what I lived through
with other people who are afraid
00:17:11.63\00:17:16.80
who live in that
place of shame and fear
00:17:16.83\00:17:19.53
as they sit in
church week after week
00:17:19.57\00:17:22.20
wondering if they're
the only weird family
00:17:22.24\00:17:26.74
who struggles with
some unconventional sin
00:17:26.78\00:17:31.28
like, pornography
or drugs or alcohol...
00:17:31.31\00:17:34.78
or those kinds of things
00:17:34.82\00:17:36.15
that you don't
normally talk about in church,
00:17:36.18\00:17:37.52
I realized that that we
weren't the only weird family
00:17:37.59\00:17:40.76
and God just laid on
my heart to give a voice
00:17:40.79\00:17:44.43
to those people
who struggle that way
00:17:44.46\00:17:47.46
and so, I wrote my story and...
00:17:47.50\00:17:49.43
Shelly: It must
have been hard to...
00:17:49.46\00:17:52.00
I mean, how many years after
you'd been out of the marriage
00:17:52.03\00:17:56.07
that you decided to write the...
00:17:56.10\00:17:58.47
or God laid it on your
heart to write the book?
00:17:58.51\00:17:59.97
I mean, it's not easy
to go back and revisit
00:18:00.01\00:18:03.21
something that you've
already put behind you.
00:18:03.24\00:18:06.38
Juliet: In order to write well,
00:18:06.41\00:18:07.82
you have to
live it in your brain
00:18:07.85\00:18:09.22
and I was...
00:18:09.25\00:18:10.69
I was remarried,
very happily, to a Pastor
00:18:10.72\00:18:14.89
and just... really
enjoying my new life,
00:18:14.92\00:18:17.53
not wanting to spend time
thinking about the past too much
00:18:17.56\00:18:20.33
but as a pastor's wife
people started talking to me...
00:18:20.36\00:18:23.10
sharing their stories with me
00:18:23.13\00:18:24.97
and I just began to have so
much compassion and realizing,
00:18:25.00\00:18:29.20
"Man! I need to be able to
share what I've lived through"
00:18:29.24\00:18:33.44
and God gave me the
courage to write it,
00:18:33.48\00:18:36.44
it took about three
years because it was hard
00:18:36.48\00:18:38.68
but it came out in 2015...
00:18:38.71\00:18:43.92
my book was
published and since then,
00:18:43.95\00:18:46.22
people contact me and
they just say, "Thank you,
00:18:46.25\00:18:49.56
thank you, thank you, thank you,
00:18:49.59\00:18:51.33
I feel like you wrote my story,
00:18:51.36\00:18:53.06
and thanks for putting
words to where I've been
00:18:53.09\00:18:56.33
and giving hope for
what God can do... "
00:18:56.36\00:18:58.80
and so, just
through that process,
00:18:58.83\00:19:01.50
I've just been able
to... by God's grace,
00:19:01.57\00:19:05.44
put away the pride and
say, "This is who I am"
00:19:05.47\00:19:08.58
and I relapsed...
00:19:08.61\00:19:09.94
Jennifer: How? What
did your relapse look like?
00:19:09.98\00:19:12.71
Juliet: Well, I
was writing my book
00:19:12.75\00:19:15.82
and I was
living... in my mind...
00:19:15.85\00:19:18.62
the hard, hard times
00:19:18.65\00:19:20.99
and another way that
I'd numb is with food
00:19:21.02\00:19:25.09
and so, I would find myself just
00:19:25.13\00:19:27.10
getting up from
my computer writing
00:19:27.13\00:19:29.06
and I'd be standing in
front of open refrigerator
00:19:29.10\00:19:31.93
going, "Just give me something,
anything to numb with... "
00:19:31.97\00:19:35.87
Jennifer: Little
dopamine in the brain.
00:19:35.90\00:19:38.37
Juliet: I
realized, "Well, I'm still...
00:19:38.41\00:19:40.78
I'm still turning to something
instead of turning to Jesus. "
00:19:40.81\00:19:45.21
Jennifer: You bring
up an interesting point
00:19:45.25\00:19:47.48
because putting
our story out there
00:19:47.52\00:19:49.08
can be very
helpful to other people
00:19:49.15\00:19:50.65
but it can... it can
summon up those feelings...
00:19:50.69\00:19:53.92
and put a person
in a fragile state
00:19:54.06\00:19:56.73
and did you ever put
the book away and say,
00:19:56.76\00:19:58.66
"I just can't
handle this right now... "
00:19:58.69\00:20:00.53
Juliet: Yes, that's why it took
three years to write the book.
00:20:00.60\00:20:04.10
I just set it aside.
00:20:04.13\00:20:05.47
Shelly: Sounds like it was its
own therapy process in itself.
00:20:05.50\00:20:08.84
Juliet: It was very cathartic.
00:20:08.87\00:20:10.44
Shelly: To write your story
00:20:10.47\00:20:12.01
and in that process,
00:20:12.04\00:20:14.91
what did you find was
the most important part of
00:20:14.94\00:20:18.25
like, the recovery process
00:20:18.28\00:20:21.38
of putting the nuts and bolts
together of codependency...
00:20:21.42\00:20:24.49
because there's...
00:20:24.55\00:20:25.89
there's true needs
that are trying to get met
00:20:25.92\00:20:28.82
when you're codependent,
00:20:28.86\00:20:30.26
you really are trying to get
your childhood needs met, right,
00:20:30.33\00:20:32.89
okay, so what did you
discover that was a need
00:20:32.93\00:20:38.20
that you're trying to get met?
00:20:38.23\00:20:39.57
Was that to feel approved of...
00:20:39.60\00:20:42.70
was it to feel loved?
Was it... I mean like...
00:20:42.74\00:20:45.84
Juliet: It was all of that
00:20:45.87\00:20:47.21
because when you're
growing up without those things,
00:20:47.24\00:20:51.11
you want it.
00:20:51.15\00:20:53.31
In a marriage with someone
who is chemically dependent,
00:20:53.35\00:20:56.02
you don't have
it, you're not seen,
00:20:56.05\00:20:58.02
you're not valued,
00:20:58.05\00:20:59.39
you're not
heard, you're not loved,
00:20:59.42\00:21:00.76
and so, it's... you're
looking for all of these things
00:21:00.79\00:21:04.69
but what I think is
the key... one key element
00:21:04.76\00:21:08.80
to putting
codependency in the past,
00:21:08.83\00:21:13.23
is to be
vulnerable enough to be heard
00:21:13.27\00:21:17.34
because if you
set aside the pride
00:21:17.37\00:21:21.38
and are willing to actually
share something of yourself
00:21:21.41\00:21:24.21
and that's where I
found group therapy
00:21:24.25\00:21:27.68
and... in my
12-Step Recovery Group
00:21:27.72\00:21:31.09
so healing for me was because
I could actually say something
00:21:31.15\00:21:34.29
and not be
interrupted, not be judged,
00:21:34.32\00:21:37.53
not have someone come back
with some snarky little answer
00:21:37.56\00:21:40.90
but to be heard... and
that to me, was very healing.
00:21:40.93\00:21:45.90
Could you give some direction
00:21:45.93\00:21:47.27
as to what kind
group a person could go to
00:21:47.30\00:21:49.84
if they're in a
similar situation,
00:21:49.87\00:21:51.77
can you give
them some direction,
00:21:51.84\00:21:53.71
they're living in Timbuktu,
00:21:53.74\00:21:55.58
they realize they have
a codependent relationship
00:21:55.61\00:21:58.51
what do they do?
00:21:58.55\00:21:59.88
Okay, well, if
you're in Timbuktu,
00:21:59.91\00:22:02.38
you might not have
a lot of resources.
00:22:02.42\00:22:05.09
In larger cities,
there are, of course,
00:22:05.12\00:22:07.62
many different types
of recovery groups...
00:22:07.66\00:22:09.59
you can be very specific
00:22:09.62\00:22:10.96
and just have a codependent
recovery group for women
00:22:10.99\00:22:14.16
and that's great
00:22:14.20\00:22:15.53
but if you don't have that,
00:22:15.56\00:22:17.07
you could go to
any recovery group
00:22:17.10\00:22:21.47
or even to create your own
with people that you feel safe.
00:22:21.50\00:22:25.07
It just... it's a matter of
00:22:25.14\00:22:27.94
knowing that you can trust
the people you are confiding in
00:22:27.98\00:22:32.11
and putting Jesus
in the center of that
00:22:32.15\00:22:34.38
and knowing that you're
not having a gossip session
00:22:34.42\00:22:37.85
or a condemnation fest... or,
you know, something like that
00:22:37.89\00:22:43.43
but that you are
actually admitting,
00:22:43.46\00:22:46.23
"This is who I am... this is
where I'm struggling right now
00:22:46.26\00:22:49.70
and letting God and
people hold you accountable.
00:22:49.73\00:22:53.84
Jennifer: That's
right, it's not gossip...
00:22:53.87\00:22:55.40
you're not just feeding
off the failings of others,
00:22:55.44\00:22:57.44
it's... you're
sharing in a group
00:22:57.47\00:23:00.34
and everything that's
said there... stays there.
00:23:00.38\00:23:02.38
Juliet: Exactly.
00:23:02.41\00:23:03.75
Christina: What would you
say to the woman who have...
00:23:03.78\00:23:06.38
or even the men who have
left... maybe a relationship...
00:23:06.41\00:23:09.38
but they haven't made
that choice to maybe confront
00:23:09.42\00:23:11.55
how they have been damaged
by a relationship such as yours,
00:23:11.59\00:23:15.46
how would they get to that point
of even going to receive help,
00:23:15.49\00:23:19.56
I mean, what are
your thoughts on that?
00:23:19.59\00:23:21.13
Well, I mean, just
asking ourselves the question,
00:23:21.16\00:23:25.67
"What... how am I feeling,
00:23:25.70\00:23:28.57
like, how am I really feeling?"
00:23:28.60\00:23:30.84
Because sometimes, when
we're addicted to relationships,
00:23:30.87\00:23:34.51
or codependent... we
just... we're in denial...
00:23:34.54\00:23:38.91
and we're so busy... worried
about how someone is feeling,
00:23:38.95\00:23:42.02
what are they doing?
00:23:42.05\00:23:43.39
We don't pay
attention to ourselves.
00:23:43.42\00:23:45.39
We don't trust
ourselves and in the 12 steps...
00:23:45.42\00:23:52.46
the 8th step is like...
00:23:52.49\00:23:53.83
making a list of all
the people I've harmed
00:23:53.86\00:23:56.10
and be willing to
make amends to them.
00:23:56.13\00:23:57.93
You know who's at
the top of our list?
00:23:57.97\00:23:59.73
Myself... because I harm myself
00:23:59.77\00:24:03.87
when I'm busy being a
guardian to everybody else.
00:24:03.91\00:24:07.24
Jennifer: And this is something
that codependents don't get...
00:24:07.28\00:24:08.81
is that you are a person
too... you're God's child
00:24:08.84\00:24:10.81
and you don't have a
right to harm yourself
00:24:10.85\00:24:13.42
just because it's
you... Juliet: Right.
00:24:13.45\00:24:15.18
Jennifer: Harming
yourself is just as off limits
00:24:15.22\00:24:18.42
as harming
another person would be.
00:24:18.45\00:24:20.49
That's something
that... because a lot of times
00:24:20.52\00:24:23.09
people that are
Christian and codependent
00:24:23.12\00:24:24.93
will mask their
codependency with,
00:24:24.96\00:24:27.13
"Well, I'm so sacrificial...
00:24:27.16\00:24:28.50
look, I'm just
willing to take all this... "
00:24:28.53\00:24:31.03
Juliet: Right, the martyr thing
00:24:31.07\00:24:32.50
but really just ask yourselves,
00:24:32.53\00:24:34.60
like, "Am I
okay? Where am I God?
00:24:34.64\00:24:36.44
and Am I being kind to myself?
00:24:36.50\00:24:38.27
Am I treating myself
with the respect that... "
00:24:38.31\00:24:40.94
Shelly: "That you want me to. "
00:24:40.98\00:24:42.41
Christina: And I thought it was
interesting that you said that
00:24:42.44\00:24:44.61
when you hadn't
come to that place yet
00:24:44.65\00:24:46.45
of admitting that you also
had some things to work out...
00:24:46.48\00:24:49.68
that you went
into workaholism...
00:24:49.72\00:24:51.19
you were trying to kind of,
00:24:51.22\00:24:52.55
"Let's try to avoid this in
some way... in some fashion... "
00:24:52.59\00:24:56.06
and it was actually the
ways of trying to cope with it
00:24:56.12\00:24:58.93
was actually
hurting you even more.
00:24:58.96\00:25:00.63
Juliet: But work is
an acceptable addiction,
00:25:00.66\00:25:02.26
especially in church...
00:25:02.30\00:25:03.63
Christina: Especially in
the United States too, right.
00:25:03.67\00:25:05.93
Juliet: We could work all
day long, I mean, as a teacher,
00:25:05.97\00:25:08.37
I could stay at school
till 9 o'clock at night,
00:25:08.40\00:25:10.37
you know, and just avoid
what was going on at home.
00:25:10.41\00:25:12.37
Christina: And you
would be looked at as...
00:25:12.44\00:25:14.31
Shelly: Wonderful.
Christina: Right...
00:25:14.34\00:25:16.14
Jennifer: Okay, I
have a question for you,
00:25:16.18\00:25:17.95
you've been amazingly
silent so I'm going to just...
00:25:17.98\00:25:21.25
you know me... so,
what percentage of the
00:25:21.28\00:25:23.75
substance-addicted
individuals that you work with
00:25:23.79\00:25:26.39
have someone enabling them?
00:25:26.42\00:25:28.89
Jean: It's not a
scientific response
00:25:28.92\00:25:32.03
but I'd say, a 100 percent.
00:25:32.09\00:25:33.46
Jennifer: Okay, I
thought you'd say that.
00:25:33.50\00:25:35.06
Jean: And the interesting thing
that I wanted to ask was...
00:25:35.10\00:25:36.90
dealing with people
that have addictions,
00:25:36.97\00:25:39.23
once they give those
addictions up, they have...
00:25:39.27\00:25:41.84
so that's getting rid
of a negative behavior
00:25:41.87\00:25:44.47
and you have to
replace it with a positive one,
00:25:44.51\00:25:47.01
you mentioned "Christ... "
that's obviously foremost...
00:25:47.08\00:25:49.08
you've mentioned "Group... "
that's always a good thing to do
00:25:49.11\00:25:53.08
but I'm also interested,
for the audience out there,
00:25:53.11\00:25:55.58
are there any
down-to-earth practical things
00:25:55.62\00:25:57.35
that a person can do...
00:25:57.39\00:25:59.12
did you do anything...
00:25:59.15\00:26:00.66
and is it listed
in your book, perhaps,
00:26:00.69\00:26:02.22
where you...
maybe exercised more
00:26:02.26\00:26:04.33
or you did something...
00:26:04.36\00:26:05.69
not the workaholic thing
00:26:05.73\00:26:07.06
but some practical
thing that somebody could do.
00:26:07.10\00:26:08.43
Jennifer: Self-care...
Jean: Yeah, thank you...
00:26:08.46\00:26:09.80
self-care things
that are really important,
00:26:09.83\00:26:11.60
did you have some fun?
00:26:11.63\00:26:12.97
Did you do anything interesting?
00:26:13.00\00:26:14.77
Juliet: Yeah, I always was
just so serious and so driven
00:26:14.80\00:26:17.77
and so...
00:26:17.81\00:26:19.14
but learning how to
have fun... how to play...
00:26:19.17\00:26:23.01
and becoming a mom
recently has helped me also
00:26:23.04\00:26:26.82
to be able to kind of do that,
to kind of have that outlet.
00:26:26.85\00:26:29.52
Give us just a nutshell
00:26:29.55\00:26:30.89
of what's going on
with the "mom" thing.
00:26:30.92\00:26:32.42
Okay, well, this year I became
a mom of 17-year-old boys...
00:26:32.45\00:26:37.13
teenagers... from Ukraine...
00:26:37.16\00:26:39.56
see, I got on to the parenting
highway with no on-ramp...
00:26:39.59\00:26:45.63
90 miles an hour...
00:26:45.67\00:26:47.10
but I'm trying to
have balance in my life...
00:26:47.14\00:26:51.64
and playing with them
is one way to do that.
00:26:51.67\00:26:56.14
Jean: Good... good...
00:26:56.18\00:26:57.51
Jennifer: You know,
there is a prayer in Psalm 139,
00:26:57.55\00:27:02.58
it says, "Search me, O
God, and know my heart:
00:27:02.62\00:27:05.52
try me, and know my thoughts:
00:27:05.55\00:27:07.06
And see if there be
any wicked way in me,
00:27:07.09\00:27:09.16
and lead me in
the way everlasting. "
00:27:09.19\00:27:11.23
And that word, "wicked way"
is from a mysterious Hebrew word
00:27:11.36\00:27:14.26
and it really
means "way of pain"
00:27:14.30\00:27:16.46
and it also
means, "way of idolatry"
00:27:16.50\00:27:18.67
so we all have
idolatries in our lives
00:27:18.70\00:27:21.20
and we've been
talking about one form...
00:27:21.24\00:27:23.67
very subtle form of idolatry
00:27:23.71\00:27:25.81
and Juliet Van Heerden
has been extremely honest,
00:27:25.84\00:27:28.74
she has a wonderful book
that goes into more detail
00:27:28.78\00:27:31.61
but pray that
prayer and ask God,
00:27:31.65\00:27:34.78
"Show me if
there's a way of pain in me
00:27:34.82\00:27:38.22
some way in which I am engaging
in some kind of idolatry
00:27:38.25\00:27:42.52
that really looks
very good on the outside
00:27:42.56\00:27:44.19
and I feel like a
martyr or whatever...
00:27:44.23\00:27:45.83
or self-righteous
00:27:45.86\00:27:47.20
and lead me in the
way of everlasting...
00:27:47.23\00:27:49.23
show me what is
the next step to take
00:27:49.26\00:27:51.43
in my recovery journey. "
00:27:51.47\00:27:53.60
Thank you so much for joining us
00:27:53.64\00:27:55.47
and may God
bless you abundantly.
00:27:55.50\00:27:57.31