Welcome to a
Multitude of Counselors
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where we hear the
silent cry of the broken.
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We're going to be talking about
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a particular kind of
brokenness today... suicide...
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suicidality is defined as the
desire and... or... intention
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to take one's own life.
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Let me share with you
some statistics on this,
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the annual rate of suicide in
the US is 13 per 100,000 people.
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We know that it is also the
tenth leading cause of death...
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in 2013...
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for people 10 to 24,
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suicide is the second
leading cause of death.
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Women attempt suicide
three times more often than men
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and men complete suicide three
times more often than women
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because they generally
use stronger methods...
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more effective methods,
if you can say it that way,
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there are 121
suicides per day in the US...
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seven out of ten of
them are white males
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just some kind of random facts.
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What about the
causes of suicide?
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As I see it... maybe
you guys can confirm this,
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there are two main causes,
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one would be: major life events
that are extremely upsetting...
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the loss of a job...
breakup of a relationship...
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divorce... health
problem developing...
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a diagnosis from a doctor...
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or something that upsets life
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and a second cause would
be any kind of mental illness
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such as major
depressive disorder...
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psychotic
disorders... and so forth,
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it seems that most suicides come
from one of those two things
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in my experience, would
you... what do you think?
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Jean: I agree.
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Jennifer: Yeah, okay, what
about prognosis and treatment?
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Suicide is preventable...
interesting fact...
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4 out of 5 youths
who attempt suicide
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have given
clear warning signs...
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4 out of 5 have
given clear warning signs.
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People think that if they
suspect that someone is suicidal
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they should not say
anything because they fear
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that by planting that
thought in that person's mind
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it's going to
actually increase the chances
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of that person
acting out, this is false...
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when we suspect
someone to be suicidal
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or in danger of
hurting themselves,
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we should broach
the subject with them
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and we want to
equip you to do that
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here at A
Multitude of Counselors
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by directing you to our web page
and on the webpage you will find
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a tool called: "Tip Map"
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when we are
concerned about people
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wanting to hurt themselves,
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we want to tip
the map of their lives
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in the right direction,
so, "Tip Map" is an acronym
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that helps you remember
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the series of
questions you need to ask
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when you fear that
someone is suicidal
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T... Thoughts...
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I... Intention...
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P... Plan...
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M... Method...
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A... Access to the Method
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and P... Prior History...
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you can find that
whole tool on our website
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on: AMultitudeOfCounselors. tv
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we urge you to go
there, download that Tip Map
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so that you will be equipped
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in dealing with this
very difficult issue,
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we also want to
give you an 800 number
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for the National
Suicide Prevention Life Line,
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anybody can call
this number at any time,
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it's 1-800-273-8255
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if you or someone you
know is in danger of suicide,
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call: 1-800-273-8255.
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We have with us
today a young man
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who actually
grappled with suicide
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and we are going to unpack that
story in just a few minutes here
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but let me introduce by
name first... Aron Crews...
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Aron with one "A"
is from Michigan...
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you're a pastor
in Michigan, correct?
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We also have with us
our Panel of Counselors,
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we have Marriage and
Family Therapist, Paul Coneff,
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we have Dr.
Jean Wright who is...
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what do you call yourself?
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A Clinical and
Forensic Psychologist.
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Oh, that's fancy...
and he's from Philadelphia,
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my hometown, kind of...
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and this is Christina Cecotto,
Professional Counselor...
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Christina Cecotto
who is from Wildwood
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and we're so thankful
to have each one of you,
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I'm real excited about
unpacking this issue...
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it's an intense one...
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but we're going to do it in
the context of Aron's story,
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so tell us Aron, upfront here,
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where you someone that struggled
along the journey of life
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with depression and
with a desire to die,
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was it something
you were familiar with
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or... or had experienced?
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Hmmm... hmmm... actually no...
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my entire
life... I've always been
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and people will tell you
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that I've always been a
very positive upbeat person,
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one who...
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myself
personally... I never thought
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that I would actually ever
have to deal with this issue,
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I remember, I
would have friends...
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that would be like, "Oh,
I'm going through a hard time"
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I would try to
sympathize with them, of course,
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but there was
always... to a certain degree
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some sort of
dissonance... where it was like,
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"Man! if they were
just more cheerful or... "
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or something like that
that would be magically fixed.
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So the
million-dollar question is,
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"How did you get from being
a basically positive person
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with no history of depression
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to the point of
wanting to take your life?"
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Like, that's pretty extreme.
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Yeah, well, it was at the
end of my college experience,
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I was going into my
last semester of college...
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excuse me, let me
back up a little bit...
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I was entering the summer,
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right before my
last semester of college,
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where I began to take
a drug called "Accutane"
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and it was...
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Accutane is a drug that
has to do with your skin...
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in particular...
Acne... to help cure that...
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and make your skin look
really nice and stuff...
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so that... coupled
up with another thing...
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there was a relationship
that was in the works...
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sort of developing there and
that ended up not working out,
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kind of falling apart...
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so the two things coupled
together... kind of compounded
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with the side effects and the
result of this drug, "Accutane"
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plus the relational
dynamics that were at play.
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Did you have any
clue, like, percentages...
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like, could you
make an educated guess
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about how much of
it was the Accutane
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and how much was
the relationship?
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I don't know if I can
give an exact percentage,
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I might say, 50... 50... it
just kind of both compounded.
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Jennifer: It set off each other.
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Aron: And I thought
through a million times
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what if one wasn't there
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and... it was just
one of the factors...
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and would I still have
gone through what I did?
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And it's just too hard
for me to kind of parse out.
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So, tell us what happened,
like, what did you start...
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like, obsessing
about wanting to die
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or what was going on?
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Well, it didn't
happen all that fast
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but basically, I was
working at a summer camp,
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at the beginning of the summer,
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right when I
began to take the drug,
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I was on it for
about a few weeks,
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and the
beginning of summer camp...
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and this was a summer
camp that I grew up at,
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I was there for
11 years, I had a...
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I loved this
camp... super happy...
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and so, this was
the first time at life,
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I was getting to be
a Staff Member there,
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I was going to be a Counselor,
so this was like, awesome...
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I had, like, a lot of
friends, really good friends
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that were going
to be working there
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and so, as the summer
began I remember one evening,
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very specifically,
it was a great day,
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everything was going just swell
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and all of a sudden,
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I just began to
have a crying spell
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I was there by myself
and I just began to weep...
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I mean just...
totally... just weep and weep
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and I was like,
"Why am I crying?
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This is really weird... "
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Jennifer: Were you a
weepy person normally?
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Aron: No, not at all, I mean,
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we're all
emotional... more or less,
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but I usually have a
direct cause or something
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if I was very emotional
and so, I was trying to think,
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"Well, why was this happening?"
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The only thing I
could come up with was,
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maybe it's an
extreme case of nostalgia...
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where I'm just like, "Wow,
I really... this is so cool,
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I used to be a camper here... "
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that's the only reason
I could give at that time,
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and as the summer progressed,
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the person that I was
sort of getting to know...
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developing a relationship
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was also working out at
the camp at the same time as me
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so throughout that summer,
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it kind of began to
get worse and worse,
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where I began to notice myself,
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the person... I began
to change a little bit,
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I began to get a
little bit more sad
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and I didn't want
to admit it because,
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"Oh, I'm sad... no,
I'm not... " yeah...
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and then finally,
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once that relationship
finally didn't work out
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and kind of crumbled apart,
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that's when all of a
sudden, everything fell...
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like it just fell apart.
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Jennifer: Did the
sadness impact the relationship?
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Aron: I would definitely
say that it did... to a degree
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where I felt like
there were certain things
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that I was doing
and saying sometimes
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that just didn't
feel like myself,
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and I'd question
myself, "What... what am I...
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why am I acting this way,
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why am I doing
these things sometimes,
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and, yeah, it was a
very difficult situation.
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Did you get to the point
of thinking about suicide,
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like, where you were actually...
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So, yes, early on, at
the beginning of the semester
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now the summer was
ending, I began to...
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once this thing was
all just taking place,
00:09:19.29\00:09:21.22
I actually looked
up on the internet
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the most pain-free way to
kill myself... numerous times,
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I probably spent
multiple hours doing that
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and one time, I
was just so out of it
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that I just couldn't
handle being on campus anymore
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and I just had to
be with my parents,
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that I actually just drove
home ten hours just to be home
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and as I was driving home,
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basically, every truck
that I saw... I imagined myself
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just crashing into a
bridge, just driving off
00:09:44.28\00:09:47.48
and so, I was calling my
parents and I was just crying,
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I'm like, "Dad, I can't
believe I'm feeling this way,
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I don't even know
if I can make it,"
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and they said,
"Aron, stop, pull over...
00:09:54.46\00:09:55.96
we're going to drive half
way, we're going to pick you up,
00:09:55.99\00:09:58.79
don't drive anymore,
it's not safe for you. "
00:09:58.83\00:10:00.60
Oh my! that's
incredible, you know,
00:10:00.63\00:10:03.63
it's a tragedy in a way that
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we have the
internet, in this regard,
00:10:05.30\00:10:07.74
that people can find information
on how to build bombs
00:10:07.77\00:10:10.44
and how to kill themselves.
00:10:10.47\00:10:12.17
And there are
real websites out there
00:10:12.21\00:10:13.64
that are like... help you do it,
00:10:13.68\00:10:15.01
it's kind of scary, that I
look back and think about it.
00:10:15.04\00:10:17.25
Did your family drive
all the way out to get you?
00:10:17.28\00:10:19.41
About half way
because I was driving
00:10:19.45\00:10:21.88
and they said, "Pull over... "
00:10:21.92\00:10:23.25
and they drove
about half way, yeah.
00:10:23.28\00:10:24.62
When did the light go on that
there was a medical explanation
00:10:24.65\00:10:28.16
for what was happening?
00:10:28.19\00:10:29.52
Yes, there was one time
where I was back in my apartment
00:10:29.56\00:10:33.70
and I was there by myself
00:10:33.73\00:10:35.16
and I was just
literally rolling on the ground
00:10:35.20\00:10:37.17
just intensely
crying and just weeping
00:10:37.20\00:10:39.67
and just like, "I
can't handle anything... "
00:10:39.70\00:10:41.50
and I remember crying
out to God and saying,
00:10:41.54\00:10:43.30
"God, you promised in Your Word
00:10:43.34\00:10:45.41
that you will not
let us handle anything
00:10:45.44\00:10:47.41
you will not give us
anything that we can't handle. "
00:10:47.44\00:10:50.25
And I'm like, "It seems
like it's passed that point...
00:10:50.28\00:10:53.01
I trust you but I
need help here... "
00:10:53.08\00:10:54.98
and all of a
sudden, something clicked,
00:10:55.02\00:10:56.85
it was like a voice
that said, "The Accutane...
00:10:56.89\00:10:59.35
have you considered and
thought about the drug?"
00:10:59.39\00:11:01.79
And all of a... I had not
correlated it to that point,
00:11:01.82\00:11:04.03
I was just thinking, this all
had to do with this relationship
00:11:04.06\00:11:06.29
but it didn't
really make a lot of sense
00:11:06.33\00:11:08.13
because it wasn't a super
well-developed relationship,
00:11:08.16\00:11:11.13
I'm like, "I'm
really taking this hard"
00:11:11.17\00:11:12.57
so that's when I immediately
called my dermatologist
00:11:12.60\00:11:15.20
and told him what
I was going through
00:11:15.24\00:11:17.87
and he said, "Drop it right now,
00:11:17.91\00:11:19.44
don't take one more dosage,
you need to stop right now. "
00:11:19.47\00:11:21.71
And the thing with these things
that can affect the psyche
00:11:21.74\00:11:25.28
is that you never know how
it's going to affect a person,
00:11:25.31\00:11:28.55
there are people probably
that take this very same drug
00:11:28.58\00:11:31.79
that don't have that reaction,
00:11:31.82\00:11:33.25
the same thing is true
of psychotropic drugs...
00:11:33.29\00:11:35.89
sometimes, "Lexapro"
with one person works great
00:11:35.92\00:11:38.53
another person... it
backfires tremendously
00:11:38.56\00:11:40.76
so, if there's brain
chemistry involved...
00:11:40.80\00:11:42.96
but my thought is that...
00:11:43.00\00:11:45.10
were you engaging in kind
of like, emotional reasoning
00:11:45.13\00:11:49.70
where... we call it,
"Secondary Disturbance"
00:11:49.74\00:11:52.07
where you're disturbed
00:11:52.11\00:11:53.44
and then you're
disturbed about being disturbed
00:11:53.48\00:11:54.88
where you're upset and you
start putting a construction
00:11:54.91\00:11:59.75
on your emotional
distress, like, you're thinking,
00:11:59.78\00:12:03.28
"Maybe I'm just really
upset about this girl...
00:12:03.35\00:12:06.82
but I can't figure out why
00:12:06.86\00:12:08.32
but maybe I'm just
getting to become so fragile,
00:12:08.36\00:12:10.99
I'm not going to
make it through life...
00:12:11.03\00:12:12.59
every
relationship trouble I have,
00:12:12.63\00:12:14.50
I'm going to
melt down... I mean...
00:12:14.53\00:12:16.33
I'm going to become
unfit for relationships... "
00:12:16.36\00:12:18.33
can you see how it just...
00:12:18.37\00:12:19.70
it would just
snowball after that point
00:12:19.73\00:12:21.60
if you start
believing your emotions
00:12:21.64\00:12:23.54
but here those emotions were
largely caused by a substance
00:12:23.57\00:12:27.58
and that's why it's so
important that we teach people
00:12:27.61\00:12:30.75
how to take a step
back from their feelings
00:12:30.78\00:12:34.02
because they are just feelings
00:12:34.05\00:12:36.18
and they are caused
by a variety of things
00:12:36.22\00:12:39.45
including medications
00:12:39.52\00:12:40.86
or the music that's
playing on the System
00:12:40.89\00:12:42.86
or the traffic jam
you just went through
00:12:42.89\00:12:44.86
or the time of
the month that it is,
00:12:44.89\00:12:47.16
or physical
problems you may be having,
00:12:47.20\00:12:49.46
they can be caused
by all of these things
00:12:49.50\00:12:51.77
and emotions are not character
00:12:51.80\00:12:54.24
you know, it's a
profound statement
00:12:54.27\00:12:56.14
in the writings of
Ellen White, she says,
00:12:56.17\00:12:57.51
"Thoughts and feelings combined
make up moral character"
00:12:57.54\00:13:00.74
I work a lot with clients,
00:13:00.78\00:13:02.11
I try to help them back
off of their feelings and say,
00:13:02.14\00:13:04.61
"You know what?
00:13:04.65\00:13:06.01
It is a feeling...
it isn't who I am... "
00:13:06.05\00:13:08.22
and I think if someone had
been able to help you with that,
00:13:08.25\00:13:10.22
maybe it wouldn't
have been so upsetting.
00:13:10.25\00:13:13.25
Yeah, well, I did
begin to see a Counselor
00:13:13.29\00:13:15.89
for the first time in my life,
00:13:15.92\00:13:17.26
I was like, "Man! maybe
I should see a Counselor"
00:13:17.33\00:13:20.10
of course, I'd tell
my parents, my mom...
00:13:20.16\00:13:21.86
"I'm going through this,
I'm feeling suicidal... "
00:13:21.90\00:13:23.97
and they're like,
"Go, go to a Counselor"
00:13:24.00\00:13:25.67
so I sat before one of
the scary people like you
00:13:25.70\00:13:28.47
for...
00:13:28.50\00:13:29.84
Jennifer: And now
you've got four of us.
00:13:29.87\00:13:31.27
Aron: And now we've
got four of you... yeah...
00:13:31.31\00:13:32.77
that was quite...
quite the experience.
00:13:32.84\00:13:35.04
Jennifer: What would you
guys... go ahead... sorry...
00:13:35.08\00:13:37.05
Aron: I was just going
to say, during that time
00:13:37.08\00:13:38.51
there was...
00:13:38.55\00:13:40.12
I know people define guilt
and shame in different ways
00:13:40.18\00:13:42.05
but the way that I understood it
during that time and now, still,
00:13:42.08\00:13:44.82
was that guilt is
when you make a mistake...
00:13:44.85\00:13:47.72
and shame is that feeling
when you are a mistake...
00:13:47.76\00:13:51.09
and so, there was a lot of...
00:13:51.13\00:13:52.56
because I wasn't acting
like myself at different times,
00:13:52.59\00:13:54.60
and so there was a
lot of "shame messages"
00:13:54.63\00:13:56.56
that I was
feeling where it's like,
00:13:56.63\00:13:58.23
"Man! I'm doing these
things, I'm acting this way,
00:13:58.30\00:14:00.47
I'm so low in my life,
00:14:00.50\00:14:01.87
I feel like I can
never get out of this... "
00:14:01.90\00:14:03.61
this is just who I am...
this is a permanent identity,
00:14:03.64\00:14:06.07
and I really needed a lot of
people that were there for me
00:14:06.11\00:14:09.28
like my
Counselor, like my parents,
00:14:09.31\00:14:11.05
like my older
sister and my roommate
00:14:11.08\00:14:12.78
and lots of other friends
00:14:12.81\00:14:14.15
that were
affirming to me and saying,
00:14:14.18\00:14:15.52
"Aron, this isn't
who you are, you...
00:14:15.55\00:14:16.89
I know who you are,
you're a bubbly person... "
00:14:16.92\00:14:19.72
I was a Theology Major,
00:14:19.75\00:14:22.02
I was a Theology Major and
that's why I'm a Pastor now,
00:14:22.06\00:14:24.76
and I was asking questions like,
00:14:24.79\00:14:26.13
"Is it even okay
to be a Theology Major
00:14:26.16\00:14:28.46
and be this depressed?
00:14:28.50\00:14:29.83
Is it okay to be thinking,
am I even fit for the ministry
00:14:29.86\00:14:32.73
if I'm borderline suicidal?"
00:14:32.77\00:14:34.77
I mean, there were
just lots of things going on
00:14:34.80\00:14:37.01
with my future
and like my identity
00:14:37.07\00:14:39.14
and all these
things during that time.
00:14:39.17\00:14:41.18
So, he comes to
you guys' office okay,
00:14:41.21\00:14:43.41
and he doesn't know at
this point... that it's the drug
00:14:43.45\00:14:47.22
and what do you say to him?
00:14:47.25\00:14:48.98
What would you have done?
00:14:49.02\00:14:50.69
Not to put you on
the hot seat or anything.
00:14:50.72\00:14:52.95
The first thing that
I would want to ask is
00:14:52.99\00:14:54.92
and I think you
described it quite well
00:14:54.96\00:14:56.93
is the cycling
that he went through
00:14:56.96\00:14:58.83
and you mentioned
that it wasn't quick...
00:14:58.89\00:15:00.66
it wasn't a quick process...
00:15:00.70\00:15:02.06
it was a gradual kind of thing
00:15:02.10\00:15:03.43
but as Jennifer mentioned,
one thing led to another
00:15:03.47\00:15:06.17
and before you know it,
00:15:06.20\00:15:07.54
they started stacking themselves
up... on top of themselves,
00:15:07.57\00:15:10.14
it's kind of like
you have a stack of books
00:15:10.21\00:15:11.87
and eventually they just
keep getting higher and higher
00:15:11.91\00:15:14.24
and so, although it may have...
00:15:14.28\00:15:15.91
originally it may have
been something like a drug
00:15:15.94\00:15:17.95
or a relationship,
00:15:17.98\00:15:19.31
you started
catastrophizing everything
00:15:19.35\00:15:21.88
and that's the thing I
was struck by your testimony
00:15:21.92\00:15:24.99
is that you became someone
that you were not used to,
00:15:25.02\00:15:28.06
you didn't know
who this person was
00:15:28.12\00:15:29.52
and your friends
didn't know who you were
00:15:29.56\00:15:31.06
so that's what I would do first,
00:15:31.09\00:15:32.43
is help him to
help me understand...
00:15:32.46\00:15:34.53
and drill down to the
cycle that he went through
00:15:34.56\00:15:36.83
because that would tell me a lot
00:15:36.87\00:15:38.20
and we can identify
the different areas...
00:15:38.23\00:15:40.34
I'd also want to do
a timeline because...
00:15:40.37\00:15:42.30
I'd want to know,
"When did it start?"
00:15:42.34\00:15:44.47
Because once you
know when it starts,
00:15:44.51\00:15:46.57
and then, you see this cycle
00:15:46.64\00:15:48.71
and you get back
to when it started,
00:15:48.74\00:15:50.18
then we can begin asking,
00:15:50.21\00:15:51.55
"What happened at that
time that's different...
00:15:51.58\00:15:55.52
that's out of the norm for you?"
00:15:55.58\00:15:57.49
Jennifer: That would
be really super helpful
00:15:57.52\00:15:59.75
and I often ask my
clients to do a lifeline...
00:15:59.79\00:16:01.92
a timeline that the
major events in your life...
00:16:01.96\00:16:04.19
and when things developed...
00:16:04.23\00:16:05.56
and that could
be so helpful to us
00:16:05.59\00:16:06.93
who are trying to
track with them...
00:16:06.96\00:16:08.33
you know, you have some...
00:16:08.36\00:16:09.80
Paul: And we might
start with the relationship
00:16:09.83\00:16:11.23
because that's
where he's focused on
00:16:11.27\00:16:12.60
but that question
creates an opportunity to say,
00:16:12.63\00:16:15.57
"What else is new,
what is different... "
00:16:15.60\00:16:16.94
what's happening
00:16:16.97\00:16:18.31
that he could
actually, maybe, bring that up.
00:16:18.34\00:16:20.31
Jennifer: One of the variables,
one of the new variables
00:16:20.34\00:16:22.08
that were
introduced into your life
00:16:22.11\00:16:23.78
that brought about...
00:16:23.81\00:16:25.15
potentially
brought about this decline.
00:16:25.18\00:16:26.61
Paul: Because he wasn't aware,
00:16:26.65\00:16:27.98
it didn't click
for him for a long time
00:16:28.02\00:16:29.35
until he's saying,
"God, what do I do,
00:16:29.38\00:16:30.79
what is the next step,
what do you...?" And then...
00:16:30.82\00:16:33.36
Sounds like both of
you are talking about
00:16:33.39\00:16:34.92
getting to the cause of how
this... why this came about...
00:16:34.99\00:16:38.29
and I noticed what
Jennifer was saying
00:16:38.33\00:16:40.73
that... it sounded like,
00:16:40.76\00:16:42.10
you were disturbed
that you were disturbed...
00:16:42.13\00:16:43.90
and that's kind of
like, grief upon grief...
00:16:43.93\00:16:46.13
and it caused it to
actually become worse,
00:16:46.17\00:16:48.30
and I'm wondering, after
you stopped the Accutane,
00:16:48.34\00:16:51.94
how did you feel after that?
00:16:51.97\00:16:54.28
Yeah, well, after I did
more research in correlating,
00:16:54.31\00:16:57.78
"Hey, a lot of these symptoms
have to do with this drug... "
00:16:57.81\00:17:00.18
I found out that the
drug doesn't go instantly
00:17:00.22\00:17:03.05
out of your body...
it takes at least a week
00:17:03.08\00:17:05.85
and mostly up to a month
before it completely flushes out
00:17:05.92\00:17:08.62
and so, I was like, excited...
"Now I'm off of it... great...
00:17:08.66\00:17:11.83
I should
magically get better... "
00:17:11.89\00:17:13.23
Well, I found out that
once you get into that cycle...
00:17:13.26\00:17:15.63
once you're down there,
00:17:15.66\00:17:17.00
regardless of what
brings you there...
00:17:17.03\00:17:18.37
once you're there...
it's just hard to get out...
00:17:18.40\00:17:21.94
if you're thrown
into a pit that's muddy...
00:17:21.97\00:17:23.74
it's hard to climb out...
00:17:23.77\00:17:25.11
so I was still down
there for quite some time.
00:17:25.14\00:17:27.08
Jennifer: For how long?
00:17:27.11\00:17:28.44
Aron: How long?
Probably the worse into it
00:17:28.48\00:17:30.58
was about two
months... a two-month period
00:17:30.61\00:17:32.88
but kind of the entirely,
00:17:32.91\00:17:34.68
with maybe like 4 or 5 months
of it being pretty intense.
00:17:34.72\00:17:38.15
Jennifer: So, the
drug is out of your System,
00:17:38.19\00:17:40.22
in a week or two...
00:17:40.26\00:17:41.66
and you stayed down
for 4 or 5 months...
00:17:41.69\00:17:45.23
so, it was
because of the momentum
00:17:45.26\00:17:47.60
of all that had happened
00:17:47.63\00:17:48.96
that you stayed that
long because the drug had just
00:17:49.00\00:17:51.87
pretty much gotten out of
your System by then... true?
00:17:51.90\00:17:54.47
Aron: True, but
then when I look back,
00:17:54.50\00:17:56.50
there was still a lot of damage
00:17:56.54\00:17:58.24
that was done during that time
00:17:58.27\00:17:59.91
and that feeling
of being distressed
00:17:59.94\00:18:01.81
about being
distressed and looking back
00:18:01.84\00:18:03.71
and really dwelling upon it,
00:18:03.75\00:18:05.45
because a lot of
what was happening
00:18:05.48\00:18:07.22
I felt that really
wasn't healthy at the time
00:18:07.25\00:18:09.82
and even looking back on it
00:18:09.85\00:18:11.29
was... I kept trying
to figure out everything.
00:18:11.35\00:18:14.02
"How can I stop this?
How can I get better?"
00:18:14.06\00:18:16.26
And then,
dwelling upon the past...
00:18:16.29\00:18:17.89
like, "This
happened... and that happened
00:18:17.93\00:18:19.49
and what if that didn't
happen and da... da... da... "
00:18:19.53\00:18:21.36
and trying to really
control it all myself...
00:18:21.40\00:18:23.43
micro-manage my own thoughts
and all these different things
00:18:23.47\00:18:26.53
instead of, of course,
throughout the entire time
00:18:26.57\00:18:28.90
which I'm going to really
expand upon it here a minute...
00:18:28.94\00:18:31.87
really surrendering
it completely over to God
00:18:31.91\00:18:34.68
instead of trying to
micro-manage everything
00:18:34.71\00:18:36.88
and every thought
that's going through my mind.
00:18:36.91\00:18:39.01
Jennifer: Hmmm...
hmmm... I love that
00:18:39.08\00:18:40.42
because we, as Counselors,
can often, take up with a method
00:18:40.45\00:18:43.95
or we have an idea
of what needs to happen
00:18:43.99\00:18:45.72
for a person to be well
00:18:45.75\00:18:47.09
but we need to realize
that those are human constructs
00:18:47.12\00:18:49.86
and ultimately,
God is the healer...
00:18:49.89\00:18:51.43
and we have to be
willing to turn people over
00:18:51.46\00:18:53.90
and ourselves over to Him,
00:18:53.93\00:18:55.56
this is why I pray
with clients, you know,
00:18:55.60\00:18:57.23
I'm not sure exactly how
God is going to heal this person
00:18:57.27\00:19:00.30
I have an idea and that's
why they've come to me for help
00:19:00.34\00:19:03.00
because I have some
experience and some idea
00:19:03.07\00:19:05.04
but it may go very differently,
00:19:05.07\00:19:07.08
we were just talking
about a person we both know,
00:19:07.14\00:19:09.54
we just are amazed at what
God has done in their lives
00:19:09.58\00:19:12.48
so, this is important... that
we need to keep our eyes on Him
00:19:12.51\00:19:16.02
and that's really powerful.
00:19:16.05\00:19:17.39
Jean: For sure, I
think something important
00:19:17.42\00:19:19.49
that Aron said was that
once he was down in that pit,
00:19:19.52\00:19:22.92
if I can use that
same metaphor that he used,
00:19:22.96\00:19:25.13
that it was
difficult to climb out,
00:19:25.19\00:19:27.16
so, how you got
there is one thing,
00:19:27.20\00:19:29.10
getting out is a
totally different thing
00:19:29.13\00:19:30.87
so what came in my mind was,
00:19:30.90\00:19:32.23
your self-worth and value
that you placed on yourself
00:19:32.27\00:19:34.87
had been disturbed,
it had been tweaked...
00:19:34.90\00:19:37.14
it had been changed
and, you know, Jennifer,
00:19:37.17\00:19:39.31
we talk about
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
00:19:39.34\00:19:41.01
and we talk about the
negative thought patterns
00:19:41.04\00:19:43.61
those kinds of things...
those things can continue
00:19:43.65\00:19:45.91
even when the drug
is out of your System
00:19:45.95\00:19:47.42
and so what Aron is sharing
with the audience is that
00:19:47.45\00:19:51.15
the fact that the impetus
was gone... did not change...
00:19:51.19\00:19:54.82
where he had cycled down to
00:19:54.86\00:19:56.22
and I think that's an important
thing to share with people.
00:19:56.26\00:19:58.76
So, I've a question for you,
00:19:58.79\00:20:00.46
was there some element of...
"Hey, I've always been Mr. Happy
00:20:00.50\00:20:04.47
I'm not allowed to
have a bad spell...
00:20:04.50\00:20:08.07
this is so
shattering to my self-image... "
00:20:08.10\00:20:11.61
and could it be that now
you've broadened your self-image
00:20:11.64\00:20:15.74
to allow yourself to
have a difficult time
00:20:15.78\00:20:19.38
as a result of this experience,
you know what I'm saying?
00:20:19.41\00:20:21.42
Did you have a
little bit of circumscribed
00:20:21.45\00:20:23.28
definition of yourself
that didn't allow you...
00:20:23.32\00:20:25.55
was that part of the
impact of this whole thing?
00:20:25.59\00:20:28.22
"I'm not an unhappy person...
I'm a happy person... "
00:20:28.26\00:20:30.83
you know...
00:20:30.89\00:20:32.23
Yeah, definitely there are
emotions that are multi-faceted
00:20:32.26\00:20:37.23
and once you experience
depression and suicidal ideation
00:20:37.27\00:20:42.07
you begin to
realize, "Whoa, I am frail...
00:20:42.10\00:20:44.67
this is a reality
that I've gone through,
00:20:44.71\00:20:46.78
I can't cover that
up, I can't hide that...
00:20:46.81\00:20:48.88
this is
something that's real... "
00:20:48.91\00:20:50.25
and now, the way that
I talk with other people
00:20:50.28\00:20:52.95
who have gone
through something similar,
00:20:52.98\00:20:55.35
it's a lot easier
for me to understand
00:20:55.38\00:20:57.72
and sympathize... and
even empathize with them...
00:20:57.75\00:20:59.75
during that time
there were a lot of people
00:20:59.79\00:21:02.42
that really...
00:21:02.46\00:21:03.83
that I would kind of
open up to a little bit...
00:21:03.86\00:21:05.33
and they've shared...
00:21:05.36\00:21:06.70
"Wow! I've gone
through the same thing... "
00:21:06.73\00:21:08.06
Wow! it's almost like
God allowed you to experience
00:21:08.10\00:21:10.97
what it's like to have
an organic brain disease...
00:21:11.00\00:21:13.54
except that it was medically
induced... so to speak...
00:21:13.57\00:21:16.04
but can you
imagine being a person
00:21:16.10\00:21:18.11
with psychosis or schizophrenia,
00:21:18.14\00:21:20.08
where your brain
chemistry won't work for you
00:21:20.11\00:21:23.78
the way normal people's
brain chemistry works for them
00:21:23.85\00:21:26.61
so God really
kind of gave you...
00:21:26.68\00:21:28.02
maybe you didn't see it this way
00:21:28.05\00:21:29.38
but God gave you an experience
00:21:29.42\00:21:30.89
that will increase your empathy
00:21:30.92\00:21:32.49
for people with organic
brain disease, if nothing else.
00:21:32.52\00:21:35.12
Definitely,
yeah, I like to think
00:21:35.16\00:21:37.33
that I can sympathize
at least this much more
00:21:37.36\00:21:39.83
in understanding that
00:21:39.89\00:21:41.23
and really the ultimate bridge
that helped me get through it,
00:21:41.26\00:21:45.90
there has been a
talk, I've heard, about,
00:21:45.93\00:21:47.70
"How to get past your past... "
00:21:47.74\00:21:49.37
well, that's
great... I'd like to know,
00:21:49.40\00:21:51.87
"How do you get
past your present
00:21:51.91\00:21:53.54
when you are in
the thick of things. "
00:21:53.58\00:21:55.01
Jennifer: Yeah.
00:21:55.04\00:21:56.38
Aron: How I got through that was
that the idea of sympathizing
00:21:56.41\00:21:58.71
is that, when I
studied the Bible
00:21:58.75\00:22:01.08
and, of course, I had
a background in theology
00:22:01.12\00:22:03.28
and studying the
Bible and a love for Christ
00:22:03.32\00:22:05.75
which I believe
firmly that if I did not have
00:22:05.79\00:22:08.12
a pre-established
and ongoing relationship
00:22:08.19\00:22:11.46
with Jesus and
God during that time,
00:22:11.49\00:22:13.46
I believe with all my
heart I would not be here
00:22:13.50\00:22:16.13
in this chair today.
00:22:16.16\00:22:17.57
It's that going back to Christ
and His sufferings on my behalf
00:22:17.60\00:22:21.50
that really
propagated me to go through it,
00:22:21.54\00:22:24.51
that Jesus is the real panacea
for all of our maladies...
00:22:24.54\00:22:28.81
mental, physical,
emotional, everything
00:22:28.84\00:22:32.01
and so once I
realized that, He... He...
00:22:32.05\00:22:34.45
when you look at the
"cross experience... "
00:22:34.48\00:22:36.58
and all the pain
that He went through...
00:22:36.62\00:22:38.89
the mental agony...
everything like that...
00:22:38.92\00:22:41.12
that's incredible...
00:22:41.16\00:22:42.79
and then you take
it even a step further
00:22:42.82\00:22:44.56
and realize that the exact
pain that I was going through,
00:22:44.59\00:22:47.26
was the same pain that He
was right there with me...
00:22:47.30\00:22:50.77
and there's a particular quote
00:22:50.80\00:22:52.80
that I read just
about every single day
00:22:52.83\00:22:55.07
during that time
that meant a lot to me
00:22:55.10\00:22:57.74
and it's by Ellen
White found in the book,
00:22:57.77\00:23:00.01
"The Desire of
Ages... " and she writes this,
00:23:00.08\00:23:02.28
she says,
"Through all our trials
00:23:02.31\00:23:05.05
we have a never-failing helper.
00:23:05.08\00:23:07.75
He does not leave us alone
to struggle with temptation,
00:23:07.78\00:23:11.42
to battle with evil,
00:23:11.45\00:23:12.79
and be finally crushed
with burdens and sorrow.
00:23:12.82\00:23:15.52
Though now He is
hidden from mortal sight,
00:23:15.59\00:23:18.46
the ear of faith can
hear His voice saying,
00:23:18.49\00:23:21.33
'Fear not; I'm with you.
00:23:21.36\00:23:24.10
I am He that
liveth, and was dead;
00:23:24.17\00:23:26.60
and behold, I am
alive forevermore.
00:23:26.63\00:23:29.00
I have endured your sorrows,
experienced your struggles,
00:23:29.04\00:23:33.74
encountered your temptations.
00:23:33.78\00:23:35.48
I know your tears;
I also have wept. '"
00:23:35.51\00:23:40.48
And here's the line that I
just read over and over again.
00:23:40.52\00:23:43.55
"The griefs that lie too deep
00:23:43.59\00:23:46.99
to be breathed into
any human ear, I know.
00:23:47.02\00:23:51.49
Think not that you
are desolate and forsaken.
00:23:51.53\00:23:55.33
Though your pain
touch no responsive chord
00:23:55.36\00:23:59.07
in any heart on earth,
look unto me, and live. '"
00:23:59.10\00:24:01.84
Wow! Hmmm... Amen...
00:24:01.87\00:24:03.20
And that was my go-to every day.
00:24:03.24\00:24:05.04
And as Counselors, we
need to bear that in mind
00:24:05.07\00:24:07.98
that the best thing
we can do for our people
00:24:08.01\00:24:10.71
is connect them to someone
00:24:10.75\00:24:12.71
who can hear
things that even we,
00:24:12.75\00:24:15.58
their Counselor, cannot hear.
00:24:15.62\00:24:17.02
Griefs that lie too
deep for even us to hear...
00:24:17.05\00:24:20.42
even in our
position in their lives,
00:24:20.46\00:24:21.99
there is someone
who can hear them,
00:24:22.02\00:24:23.53
His name is Jesus... and we
need to be leading them to Him
00:24:23.56\00:24:25.69
and that is so beautiful,
Aron, that is so powerful
00:24:25.73\00:24:29.46
and an inspired statement
like that... can be like,
00:24:29.53\00:24:33.20
you know, when you're rock
climbing and there's a hold...
00:24:33.23\00:24:35.80
it can be a "hold" that keeps
you from falling into the pit
00:24:35.84\00:24:38.37
and that's
exactly what it really is.
00:24:38.41\00:24:39.84
And I think it's
important because
00:24:39.87\00:24:41.21
one of the things about suicide
is... it's often a loss of hope,
00:24:41.24\00:24:44.55
it's hopelessness...
if we were to beget...
00:24:44.58\00:24:46.48
it's not the only
reason but a major umbrella
00:24:46.51\00:24:48.38
that would be hopelessness,
00:24:48.42\00:24:49.78
if we can help them have hope
00:24:49.82\00:24:51.15
and here... he's
talking about the cross
00:24:51.19\00:24:54.02
and how powerful that is too
00:24:54.06\00:24:55.39
and part of that is
that time in Gethsemane,
00:24:55.42\00:24:56.99
when He's
overwhelmed in His soul
00:24:57.03\00:24:59.46
to the point of death,
that's what Scriptures say.
00:24:59.49\00:25:01.00
We're not saying,
"He was hopeless... "
00:25:01.03\00:25:02.76
we're saying, "He
went into the darkness
00:25:02.80\00:25:04.23
of where He couldn't
see any light beyond Him. "
00:25:04.27\00:25:07.40
There was actual
trauma, it wasn't...
00:25:07.44\00:25:09.67
He wasn't play acting.
00:25:09.70\00:25:11.04
Paul: He was sweating
blood... this is real blood
00:25:11.07\00:25:12.81
the blood that was in
His brain are breaking...
00:25:12.87\00:25:14.54
coming out of His forehead...
00:25:14.58\00:25:16.04
so He understands
incredible stress,
00:25:16.11\00:25:17.78
He understands darkness,
00:25:17.81\00:25:19.31
He understands being
tempted to have no hope
00:25:19.35\00:25:23.25
and that's where
He gets the power
00:25:23.28\00:25:25.42
to be that sympathetic
High Priest in Hebrews 4
00:25:25.45\00:25:28.32
that says, "I can
sympathize with you...
00:25:28.39\00:25:30.53
I can identify with you
because I was tempted...
00:25:30.56\00:25:32.23
and that gives you confidence
or boldness to come to me. "
00:25:32.26\00:25:35.10
Hmmm... hmmm... and
on the basis of that,
00:25:35.13\00:25:37.37
we can look at people in the eye
00:25:37.40\00:25:39.23
who want to die
and we could say,
00:25:39.27\00:25:41.00
"There is life beyond
this... there's a future here...
00:25:41.04\00:25:43.94
it gets
better... " so to speak...
00:25:43.97\00:25:46.17
"someone understands
00:25:46.21\00:25:47.61
and someone can carry
you into the future. "
00:25:47.64\00:25:49.64
I can remember a conversation
I had with a suicidal person
00:25:49.68\00:25:53.01
where all I said to them was,
00:25:53.05\00:25:54.38
"All I'm asking
is that you live...
00:25:54.42\00:25:56.52
please... just live...
you don't have to change...
00:25:56.55\00:26:00.02
you don't have to
get off your addiction...
00:26:00.06\00:26:01.69
you don't have to do
anything different...
00:26:01.72\00:26:03.36
just live... "
00:26:03.39\00:26:04.73
and they knew
exactly what I meant
00:26:04.76\00:26:06.70
and they said, "No... "
00:26:06.73\00:26:08.06
and I said to them,
00:26:08.10\00:26:09.43
"If you die, I'll be
left with a broken heart"
00:26:09.46\00:26:12.60
and they said, "I
won't be here to notice it"
00:26:12.63\00:26:15.77
and I said, "Do you
really want to be that way?"
00:26:15.80\00:26:18.77
Please... just live... "
00:26:18.81\00:26:20.64
and they said,
"Okay, I'll live... "
00:26:20.68\00:26:22.01
finally... and sometimes
that's all we can say to people,
00:26:22.04\00:26:25.71
it's just...
"Live... there is...
00:26:25.75\00:26:27.35
God can get you through this,
00:26:27.38\00:26:28.82
there's a future,
it gets better... "
00:26:28.88\00:26:30.72
Paul: And if they're open,
00:26:30.75\00:26:32.12
you have to meet
people where they are...
00:26:32.15\00:26:33.49
and if they're open
to spiritual resources...
00:26:33.52\00:26:35.06
I want to move
in that information
00:26:35.12\00:26:36.99
about Jesus'
story in Gethsemane...
00:26:37.03\00:26:38.86
in the darkness on Calvary...
00:26:38.89\00:26:41.10
and I want to take their
story into Jesus' story...
00:26:41.16\00:26:43.20
turn it into a prayer
00:26:43.26\00:26:44.60
because when they
start talking to God,
00:26:44.63\00:26:46.17
and identifying with Christ,
00:26:46.20\00:26:47.67
I find that God does some
healing and gives them some hope
00:26:47.70\00:26:50.01
and Jesus went
through with these experiences
00:26:50.04\00:26:52.17
being tempted to not have hope,
00:26:52.24\00:26:53.71
to not have joy, to not
have trust in His Father,
00:26:53.74\00:26:56.44
so they can receive His
hope, His trust in His Father...
00:26:56.48\00:27:00.32
so we're not even
asking them to have hope
00:27:00.35\00:27:01.68
that they can't generate,
00:27:01.72\00:27:03.05
we're not asking them to do
something that they can't...
00:27:03.08\00:27:04.45
we're not saying,
00:27:04.49\00:27:05.82
"Do something you're
already unable to do. "
00:27:05.85\00:27:07.19
Jennifer: You receive from
Jesus the hope that He had.
00:27:07.22\00:27:08.92
Paul: And the word,
"receive" is in the King James
00:27:08.96\00:27:10.83
in the New
Testament... 257 times.
00:27:10.86\00:27:12.46
Jennifer: Wow!
00:27:12.49\00:27:13.83
Paul: So that's a
fairly solid foundation
00:27:13.86\00:27:15.60
to say, "Let's pray
Jesus' story into your story...
00:27:15.63\00:27:19.67
and receive His hope... "
00:27:19.73\00:27:22.24
as opposed to telling them,
00:27:22.27\00:27:23.94
again, "Here's a key,
00:27:23.97\00:27:25.61
try and do what
you're already unable to do"
00:27:25.64\00:27:27.51
that is... that's stealing their
hope... that's robbing them.
00:27:27.54\00:27:30.05
Christina: Well, it sounds
as if Aron was actually doing
00:27:30.08\00:27:31.78
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
00:27:31.81\00:27:33.15
He was replacing that
hopelessness with hope
00:27:33.18\00:27:36.42
by reading that quote every day
00:27:36.48\00:27:38.42
so really, that is
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy
00:27:38.45\00:27:41.12
that you were doing.
00:27:41.16\00:27:42.49
Jean: That's right.
00:27:42.52\00:27:43.86
Paul: Christ-centered
Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.
00:27:43.89\00:27:45.23
Christina: Exactly.
00:27:45.26\00:27:46.59
Aron: And in John
chapter 6, Jesus says,
00:27:46.63\00:27:47.96
"The words I speak to you,
00:27:48.00\00:27:49.36
they are Spirit
and they are life. "
00:27:49.40\00:27:51.10
Christina: Amen. Jean: Amen.
00:27:51.13\00:27:52.53
Jennifer: Well, this
is a powerful conversation
00:27:52.57\00:27:54.50
that we're having here,
00:27:54.54\00:27:55.87
we just want those of you
that have been listening...
00:27:55.90\00:27:57.51
and those of you who
have struggled with suicide
00:27:57.54\00:27:59.14
and know someone
that has, live...
00:27:59.17\00:28:01.31
God's message to you is,
"Live... it gets better... "
00:28:01.34\00:28:04.01