Welcome to: A
Multitude of Counselors
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where we face
and embrace the truth
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because the truth heals.
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We're going to be talking today
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about healing
from a broken home.
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So many are affected by divorce,
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in fact, I would say that
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there are a couple of
different kinds of divorce...
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one is obviously the
legal dissolution of a marriage
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but I think
there are many couples
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that are
estranged from one another
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and remain legally intact,
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at any rate, divorce is harmful
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especially to the
children affected by it.
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In fact, about half
of children in America
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will see their parents' divorce
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and what we find in
the research is that
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these divorces are
correlated with much harm
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that comes to children,
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for instance, children
tend to face more poverty
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when they've been
through parental divorce.
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Children from
divorced homes tend to have
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more mental health and
physical health problems,
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they tend to
have poor academics,
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they tend to
suffer more financially
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in many, many
ways... children struggle...
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we think because of divorce
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now, I'm not saying this
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to make
individuals that have divorced
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feel any more guilty than
they probably already feel,
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I'm saying this because we want
to come alongside these children
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we want to come
alongside these adult children
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who have suffered
because their parents divorced
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and we want to tell
them, "We love you... "
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and we want to share with them
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opportunities for healing
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and so, in order to do that,
we're going to be talking to
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Dee Casper today,
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so I want to introduce
my guest and my panel...
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I have Dee Casper who is
going to be our guest today
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talking about
coming from a broken home
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and how he coped with that
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and I want to
introduce our therapist today.
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Paul Coneff, is a
Marriage and Family Therapist,
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we've got Dr. Jean
Wright from Philadelphia
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and we've got Professional
Counselor, Christina Cecotto.
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So, Dee... tell
us what happened.
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So, when I was about 3 or
4, my parents got divorced,
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my mom had been
divorced once before then
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and she had a
difficult upbringing...
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as far as intimacy in
the home from her mother's...
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had a biological
mother that left her
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and then, her adopted
mother who married her father...
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just never really felt
loved and nurtured from her.
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So there's a lot of
damage in her life, okay.
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Yes, so that kind of led to
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looking for
things in her spouses
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that she wasn't going to find,
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that she didn't
receive from her parents
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so, she was divorced once,
had a son with her first husband
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they were divorced,
the father got custody
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so she was without the son...
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and she married my dad,
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my dad was the caretaker
for my great-grandfather
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who had Alzheimer's...
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that's a very
difficult environment to be in
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as newlyweds
and... with a young child
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plus the battles that she
was facing in other things
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and so she eventually left,
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the third husband she had...
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she's actually been married
and divorced seven times total
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but the third husband
she had after my dad...
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she had a severe, severe
encounter with domestic abuse,
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I don't know how
many times it occurred
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but there was one really,
really, really brutal one and...
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How did you find out about it?
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So my
grandfather... my dad's dad
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lived about a mile or
two from where she lived
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in the Government Projects,
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Government...
subsidized housing or whatever
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and he dropped me off...
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because she
didn't have custody...
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and she would tell you
that was in my best interest too
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but... so I was
visiting my grandparents
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and since I was near where
mom was... they dropped me off
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and when she opened
the door, she was purple...
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she's swollen... she's blue...
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she's not the person I know
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and she told me at that time
that she fell down the stairs,
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you know, that she
just tripped and fell,
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my grandfather wasn't stupid
he called the cops immediately
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and the guy was
taken off to prison
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and I never saw
him again... from then
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but the divorce and then this...
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and the last
main trigger where...
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my mom's cousin was one
who was really big in like,
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horror movies and scary movies
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and alien and Freddy
Krueger and all kinds of...
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Jurassic Park and other things,
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as a young mind...
that's already feeling scared
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because of what I saw,
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I didn't see it happen to
mom but I saw the after-effects
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and as a child... I
knew... still knew...
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Did you know consciously
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or did you just sort
of know unconsciously
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and later realized
what had happened to mom...
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I don't remember
the length of time
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on when she told me
what really happened,
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I don't think it
was too terribly long...
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but I know that internally
there was fear... for sure...
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something happened that
I knew something was wrong,
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this wasn't that
mom had an accident,
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even as a child...
as a five-year-old...
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I knew something... didn't
know how to communicate it,
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didn't know how to phrase it,
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or didn't know how to
wrap my mind around it
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but I was certainly aware
that something had happened
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but whenever my mom would
be doing some college classes,
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I'd be with her cousin and...
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watching all these terrifying
movies as a very small child,
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I just... I kind of had this...
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the cards kind of
stacked against me
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in a sense of... a lot of
things to bring a lot of fear,
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a lot of
feelings of being unloved,
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a lot of feelings of
rejection and just...
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it caused a lot
of difficulty for me,
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certainly whenever
I... from that point forward
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of... fear has kind of been one
of the big underlying situations
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that I have kind
of better tied it to
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because, "Am I
going to be rejected,
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am I going to be
in danger, am I safe,
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am I loved, am I nurtured?"
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My mom, in my
upbringing from then on...
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I felt more like a parent
to her than she was to me,
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I felt like she was kind
of using me to feel normal
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because I was
something that was innocent
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and I didn't have the
battles that she was having
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but was starting to receive
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the fruits of the
battle that she was having,
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I don't think she
fully knew that at the time,
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but... so when would be
clinging or other things,
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I just felt like I
didn't want that...
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I was starved for intimacy
but I didn't want the way
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that she was trying to
show me intimacy either
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because, again, I
just felt used at the time
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and even as a child...
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I couldn't wrap my
mind around that fully...
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looking back I know
that that's what it was...
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but at that time,
I just... didn't...
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You don't even have
the words to describe
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what was going on, yeah...
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And shouldn't
really, you're not...
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my mental faculties
aren't there to a point
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that should be
able to process it,
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so that was a lot of what
happened with my upbringing,
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I was a latchkey kid...
my dad was a single parent
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and he married once again...
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just thinking that he needed
a woman in the house for me...
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it just wasn't a good fit,
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I didn't get along with
the kids and with her, really,
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either admit to that and did...
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and so he would have to
work to provide for the home
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so I had a lot
of unsupervised time
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and so things I ended up doing
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as a response to the
fear that I was feeling
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and a lack of power...
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a lack of control... was that...
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I started stealing
at the age of five...
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like, I was stealing
toys and things from stores
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and who's going to suspect a kid
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and it was just because it was
a way for me to be in control
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and I could get
something I wanted...
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to make me feel good
and I didn't have any money
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so that was just
the way that I did it
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and lying a lot...
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and I realize
looking back again...
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that both of
those were means for me
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just trying to feel in control,
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to feel safe... that I'm not
going to be disappointed again,
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I can control the circumstances
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so that I won't
end up being hurt
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and then they
eventually diagnosed me
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when I was in School...
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because I was sharpening
my pencil all the time
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and just couldn't sit still...
because all the internal things,
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I didn't know it at the time
but they put me on Ritalin...
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What did they diagnose you with?
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ADD...
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Oh, ADD... okay... sharpening
your pencil all the time...
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that wasn't OCD... or...?
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Or do you kind of have both?
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I just hated school...
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I just wanted any
excuse to get up and get out.
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Looking back, I do
see that the Ritalin...
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the OCD in my
experience too for sure,
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just... you know...
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being more
attentive about things
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you don't really need
to be that attentive...
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you know... things like that...
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I still wrestle... "Did
I locked my car or not?"
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Like, even though I know
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I locked my car...
just... things like that...
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I still see some
side effects of that
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but those were things
that came into my experience
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and I can look
back now and realize
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that that was tied to
my interactions as a kid.
00:08:08.78\00:08:11.22
So there are a lot of lenses
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through which we can
look at this situation,
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one of them is...
I like brain science
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and your Amygdala
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which is the
emotional part of your brain
00:08:18.19\00:08:19.96
and the one that
really mediates fear
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is basically assaulted by
all of these traumatic events
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but then, in addition to
that, which is often the case,
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you don't have those
stabilizing bonds in your life
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that help calm
the emotional system
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and as a result, you're just
in overdrive mode for years.
00:08:34.41\00:08:37.31
That was exactly
it, that I didn't...
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my dad did what he could
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and he had been
in an environment
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that wasn't the easiest either
from one of his parents...
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it was just... he didn't
really receive all the nurturing
00:08:45.49\00:08:48.09
that he could have received
00:08:48.12\00:08:49.46
and so neither of my...
00:08:49.49\00:08:50.83
and neither of
them really grew up
00:08:50.86\00:08:52.19
having strong
spiritual experiences themselves
00:08:52.23\00:08:55.20
so neither were really equipped
to give me what I needed
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in that sense...
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I didn't know about
love languages at that stage
00:08:59.43\00:09:01.37
and how it worked, obviously,
00:09:01.40\00:09:02.87
looking back I saw that the
00:09:02.90\00:09:04.31
things that my
heart was wired for,
00:09:04.37\00:09:05.71
I wasn't receiving as much
00:09:05.74\00:09:07.08
so just feeling
deprived of intimacy
00:09:07.11\00:09:10.18
and even the extended family...
00:09:10.25\00:09:12.28
there wasn't a
lot of intimacy there,
00:09:12.31\00:09:13.65
cordial...
friendly... but not intimate...
00:09:13.68\00:09:16.08
and so I was
running to whatever I could
00:09:16.12\00:09:18.32
to find some of
those voids to be filled.
00:09:18.35\00:09:20.02
Have you been
able to revisit this
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now that you're an adult
00:09:21.79\00:09:23.12
and you have connected
the dots between these events
00:09:23.16\00:09:25.36
and how they affected you...
00:09:25.39\00:09:26.73
were you ever able to go
to your mother, for instance,
00:09:26.76\00:09:30.57
and say... you know...
00:09:30.63\00:09:32.30
as... after my conversion,
00:09:32.33\00:09:33.94
my dad realized that he
has a need for something more,
00:09:33.97\00:09:36.74
9... 11... woke him up and
he had an encounter with God
00:09:36.77\00:09:39.77
and he started loving me
into a relationship with God
00:09:39.81\00:09:42.34
which is what I had
been looking for all along...
00:09:42.38\00:09:44.41
all the things I
didn't feel like I received...
00:09:44.45\00:09:46.41
I was getting even
more of at that time
00:09:46.48\00:09:49.38
I was being pointed to God
00:09:49.42\00:09:50.75
so basically God found
me and brought me to Himself
00:09:50.79\00:09:52.82
through a relationship I
was going through with my dad
00:09:52.85\00:09:55.02
so, I grew that bond...
00:09:55.09\00:09:56.99
but with my mom, I
didn't really have the...
00:09:57.03\00:09:58.76
we would have time together but
like that sense of bond... no...
00:09:58.79\00:10:01.53
till I was about 27 once
I was working in ministry
00:10:01.56\00:10:04.33
and I had forgiven my
mother but God convicted me
00:10:04.37\00:10:07.17
that I needed to tell
her that I forgave her
00:10:07.20\00:10:09.00
and so, after her 7th divorce,
00:10:09.04\00:10:13.07
she went to go
live with her parents,
00:10:13.14\00:10:14.84
and by the grace of God,
00:10:14.88\00:10:16.21
Jesus is the 8th
husband, by-the-way...
00:10:16.24\00:10:17.91
she's found God... she
had a relationship with Jesus
00:10:17.95\00:10:20.42
and she's finding
what she didn't find before
00:10:20.45\00:10:22.65
so, in this encounter with her,
00:10:22.68\00:10:25.85
I was a
27-year-old, I think, in 2013...
00:10:25.89\00:10:27.96
and I sat her down, I said,
00:10:27.99\00:10:30.39
"These are the things that I
have wrestled with in my life
00:10:30.43\00:10:32.29
and they were directly
tied to the exposures I had
00:10:32.33\00:10:35.03
as a child... with you...
00:10:35.06\00:10:36.83
and the things
that you exposed me to
00:10:36.87\00:10:38.67
but I want you to know
that I forgive you... "
00:10:38.70\00:10:41.10
and in that
moment, we cried together
00:10:41.14\00:10:43.64
and we prayed together
00:10:43.67\00:10:45.17
and I gained them all...
for the first time in my life
00:10:45.21\00:10:47.51
as a 27-year-old man.
00:10:47.54\00:10:48.88
Because like...
awww... that's so beautiful.
00:10:48.91\00:10:51.38
Like, we often...
as counselors, like...
00:10:51.41\00:10:53.95
try to encourage those
kinds of conversations...
00:10:53.98\00:10:56.75
our clients come...
they've really been damaged...
00:10:56.79\00:10:59.49
for instance, in their homes...
00:10:59.52\00:11:00.86
and we try to encourage
those kinds of conversations
00:11:00.89\00:11:03.12
but a lot of
times it goes very badly
00:11:03.16\00:11:04.89
so, or... or... it's
not even worth trying at all
00:11:04.93\00:11:07.76
because of the
lack of responsiveness
00:11:07.80\00:11:09.20
on the part of
the other so you...
00:11:09.23\00:11:10.60
you were able to have a
successful conversation...
00:11:10.63\00:11:14.30
healing
conversation with your mother
00:11:14.34\00:11:15.70
which you feel... you said
like you've gained a mother.
00:11:15.77\00:11:18.51
Yeah, it changed everything
00:11:18.57\00:11:19.97
and one of the immediate things
that came as a result of that
00:11:20.01\00:11:22.54
was that she started writing
letters to everyone in her life
00:11:22.58\00:11:24.88
ex-husbands...
people that she had hurt...
00:11:24.91\00:11:26.75
to try to make things right
00:11:26.78\00:11:28.12
and so, it was a
dramatic change in her...
00:11:28.15\00:11:31.39
in fact, she's already
starting to want to come to God,
00:11:31.42\00:11:33.59
she realized that
was the missing component
00:11:33.62\00:11:35.99
but to have this...
really was the platform
00:11:36.02\00:11:38.36
that opened everything for her.
00:11:38.39\00:11:39.73
So, obviously that
wasn't the end of the story
00:11:39.76\00:11:43.47
because when you have an assault
00:11:43.50\00:11:45.80
on the emotional system
like that when you're so young,
00:11:45.83\00:11:48.70
often we wrestle with
it into our adult years
00:11:48.84\00:11:52.04
and now you're functioning...
you're up and running...
00:11:52.07\00:11:54.88
but was it really gone,
was everything really fixed
00:11:54.94\00:11:57.05
or did you need more help?
00:11:57.08\00:11:58.75
I thought it was... I
told people for years...
00:11:58.78\00:12:01.28
I was working in
ministry about my upbringing
00:12:01.32\00:12:03.75
and that it had
never bothered me.
00:12:03.79\00:12:05.22
I was fully
convinced of this for years
00:12:05.25\00:12:07.92
and about 14- to 15-months ago,
00:12:07.96\00:12:10.56
Paul here actually
was doing a program
00:12:10.59\00:12:13.70
with someone else at 3ABN
00:12:13.76\00:12:17.17
and a friend of mine had told me
to read his book 2 years earlier
00:12:17.20\00:12:19.90
in the summer... and
I thought, "Ehhh... "
00:12:19.93\00:12:22.07
I know some other
people that have problems
00:12:22.10\00:12:24.37
I may read it for
them... because I assumed
00:12:24.44\00:12:26.64
that I'm in
ministry to help people
00:12:26.68\00:12:28.01
with their problems,
I don't have problems,
00:12:28.04\00:12:29.38
I'm here to help them
with their problems...
00:12:29.41\00:12:30.75
Paul: You're the
only one that does that...
00:12:30.78\00:12:32.65
Dee: Yeah, I'm
sure... it was just me...
00:12:32.68\00:12:34.55
Paul: None of us have
ever fallen into that trap...
00:12:34.58\00:12:37.19
Dee: And so, in my situation,
I didn't read the book
00:12:37.22\00:12:39.69
and God, in His
mercy, didn't give up on me
00:12:39.72\00:12:42.09
and so, a mutual friend of ours
00:12:42.12\00:12:44.39
told me that Paul
was coming to 3ABN...
00:12:44.43\00:12:46.03
my ministry is
located right next door...
00:12:46.09\00:12:47.70
and I said, "Yeah,
have him come over... "
00:12:47.76\00:12:49.30
and one of the things
that Paul talked about...
00:12:49.36\00:12:51.93
he went kind of
quickly through what he does
00:12:51.97\00:12:54.50
and it took a while for
me to wrap my mind around it
00:12:54.54\00:12:57.61
even though I'm a Bible student
00:12:57.64\00:12:58.97
and when I had that situation,
it ended up having me...
00:12:59.01\00:13:01.94
what happened to me was,
00:13:01.98\00:13:04.05
he said that all the addictions
that we have in our experience
00:13:04.08\00:13:06.45
are us trying to numb pain
that we're feeling in our lives
00:13:06.51\00:13:08.85
and it was like
the most profound thing
00:13:08.88\00:13:10.79
I'd ever heard in my life
00:13:10.85\00:13:12.19
I knew immediately that whatever
this guy is talking about,
00:13:12.22\00:13:14.12
is what I've been
looking for my whole life,
00:13:14.16\00:13:15.89
I don't know what it means,
00:13:15.92\00:13:17.26
I don't understand it but I
know that this is what I need,
00:13:17.29\00:13:19.69
and as I was traveling out east,
00:13:19.76\00:13:22.33
I was listening to the YouTube
videos that he'd produced,
00:13:22.36\00:13:24.60
and it was like someone
yanked back the shower curtain
00:13:24.63\00:13:27.54
and I saw a "Dee"
that I did not know existed
00:13:27.60\00:13:30.11
for 25 out of my 30 years.
00:13:30.17\00:13:32.27
Never knew... and
I started to realize
00:13:32.31\00:13:35.08
the deep wounds that I
had and the needs that I had
00:13:35.11\00:13:37.58
and so, the question I had was,
00:13:37.65\00:13:39.25
"Well, if all
addictions and things
00:13:39.28\00:13:40.92
come from pain
that we're feeling,
00:13:40.95\00:13:42.52
where is the pain?"
00:13:42.58\00:13:44.12
And God took me
back to Ground Zero
00:13:44.15\00:13:46.65
and all the strongholds that
were existing in my experience
00:13:46.69\00:13:48.92
started around the
same time when I was five...
00:13:48.96\00:13:51.09
whenever mom got
roughed up by that guy...
00:13:51.13\00:13:53.50
and it just kind of
bubbled from there...
00:13:53.53\00:13:55.90
so that was... that
was my "ah ha" moment
00:13:55.93\00:13:58.20
and it began the
process of me digging deeper,
00:13:58.23\00:14:00.70
Paul and I have prayed
together with some of my story,
00:14:00.74\00:14:02.77
I read his book... and this has
helped me to better understand
00:14:02.80\00:14:06.27
who I am... my true
identity in Jesus...
00:14:06.31\00:14:08.08
and I know that
Jesus could relate
00:14:08.11\00:14:09.84
to what I had gone through
00:14:09.88\00:14:11.25
and it carried my shame, He
carried my fear, my guilt...
00:14:11.28\00:14:14.62
anything... to
death on the cross
00:14:14.65\00:14:16.52
and rose again to give
me a new identity in Jesus
00:14:16.55\00:14:18.65
and it's been
life-changing for me,
00:14:18.69\00:14:20.16
I've spent my
ministry committing...
00:14:20.19\00:14:21.62
to telling that message now
for the last year-and-a-half
00:14:21.66\00:14:24.33
to young people
with brokenness...
00:14:24.36\00:14:25.69
Powerful, so guys,
weigh in... what do you think?
00:14:25.73\00:14:28.06
I know you've been very
00:14:28.10\00:14:29.73
intimately
involved in this situation
00:14:29.76\00:14:31.77
and what do you
think? Give us your thoughts.
00:14:31.80\00:14:35.47
You're talking a
lot about the fears
00:14:35.50\00:14:37.07
and we want to honor those
00:14:37.11\00:14:38.87
and the shame and the
guilt... those are feelings...
00:14:38.91\00:14:40.61
and that's important...
00:14:40.64\00:14:42.11
and for me... Jesus said,
00:14:42.14\00:14:43.55
"Out of the heart
come sinful thoughts...
00:14:43.58\00:14:44.91
Satan is the father of lies... "
00:14:44.95\00:14:46.28
so, if we can deal
with those negative thoughts
00:14:46.31\00:14:48.02
behind the
feelings and behaviors...
00:14:48.05\00:14:49.92
then I think we
can get more healing
00:14:49.95\00:14:51.79
and that's where... I think...
00:14:51.82\00:14:53.46
to me... when
you're bringing in Jesus...
00:14:53.49\00:14:55.39
suffering... being
tempted... going...
00:14:55.42\00:14:57.23
he has gone through
what he has gone through...
00:14:57.26\00:14:58.99
with fear and shame...
00:14:59.03\00:15:00.40
Jesus was alone,
abandoned, betrayed, abused,
00:15:00.43\00:15:02.56
tempted and that was pain,
00:15:02.60\00:15:04.07
where I find the power is,
00:15:04.10\00:15:05.47
it's an easy way
to build a bridge
00:15:05.53\00:15:07.14
from Jesus'
story... to his story...
00:15:07.17\00:15:08.50
He was tempted without sin,
00:15:08.54\00:15:10.24
yet He was tempted that
way to identify with him
00:15:10.31\00:15:12.64
and it makes Him
more "a personal Jesus. "
00:15:12.67\00:15:14.08
Hmmm... hmmm... hmmm... hmmm...
00:15:14.11\00:15:15.44
So, I have a
question for you Dee,
00:15:15.48\00:15:16.81
I'm wondering...
"How did you practically
00:15:16.85\00:15:20.22
regain that new
identity in Christ?"
00:15:20.28\00:15:22.98
The first was to know that
Jesus could relate to me...
00:15:23.02\00:15:25.75
what those specific things were
00:15:25.79\00:15:27.12
and then how to receive
the healing that Christ earned
00:15:27.16\00:15:30.46
by being tempted in
the same way and succeeding
00:15:30.53\00:15:33.93
and so, Paul,
basically has a prayer ministry
00:15:33.96\00:15:36.36
where he teaches
people how to, kind of,
00:15:36.40\00:15:38.53
compose a prayer,
kind of... write a prayer
00:15:38.57\00:15:40.67
based upon their experience,
00:15:40.70\00:15:42.47
how has Jesus gone
through something similar
00:15:42.50\00:15:44.21
so what lies... what
thoughts go through your mind...
00:15:44.24\00:15:47.44
of your particular struggles
00:15:47.48\00:15:50.25
and then he puts
actions... what are actions...
00:15:50.28\00:15:52.61
or what are events
that happen in Jesus' life,
00:15:52.65\00:15:54.88
where He would be tempted
to have those same thoughts
00:15:54.95\00:15:57.42
and then, you
begin learning a process
00:15:57.49\00:15:59.92
of how to pray Christ's
experience into yours...
00:15:59.95\00:16:02.19
and I remember,
one of the things...
00:16:02.22\00:16:04.06
that you talked
about in your book,
00:16:04.09\00:16:05.89
or at least that God kind
of made application for...
00:16:05.93\00:16:08.40
from what I read in the book
00:16:08.43\00:16:09.76
was envisioning God being there
00:16:09.80\00:16:12.13
and Jesus being
beside you in those moments
00:16:12.17\00:16:14.34
where you were freed...
and where you were hurt...
00:16:14.37\00:16:16.74
and I remember,
00:16:16.81\00:16:18.14
I found a tremendous
amount of healing in a moment...
00:16:18.17\00:16:19.64
after seeing that.
00:16:19.67\00:16:21.01
So, what's the difference
between that and what they call,
00:16:21.04\00:16:22.71
New Age
visioning... type of thing?
00:16:22.74\00:16:25.11
Help us
understand the difference.
00:16:25.15\00:16:27.02
For me it's a difference between
00:16:27.08\00:16:28.88
Jesus having gone through the
experience to identify with us
00:16:28.92\00:16:31.52
which was real
and part of history
00:16:31.55\00:16:33.02
as a
Christian... we believe that
00:16:33.05\00:16:34.39
versus me trying to
imagine something...
00:16:34.42\00:16:36.79
Jennifer: That didn't exist.
00:16:36.83\00:16:38.16
Paul: Like,
some people will say,
00:16:38.19\00:16:39.53
"Well, imagine
you were abused...
00:16:39.56\00:16:40.90
imagine a strong man
came and rescued you... "
00:16:40.93\00:16:43.06
the problem is,
there's no rescue.
00:16:43.10\00:16:44.43
Jennifer: There
was no strong man.
00:16:44.47\00:16:45.80
Paul: And then they say, "You're
the strong man... or woman... "
00:16:45.83\00:16:48.37
well, number one...
no... no... no strong...
00:16:48.40\00:16:51.27
if a girl has been
abused, no one rescued her...
00:16:51.31\00:16:54.11
and she wasn't
strong enough to stop it,
00:16:54.14\00:16:55.61
we're not blaming
her, I'm just saying...
00:16:55.64\00:16:57.08
those to me are false...
00:16:57.11\00:16:58.98
we're trying to
overcome negative thoughts
00:16:59.01\00:17:00.85
and negative messages,
00:17:00.88\00:17:02.22
with another
story that's not true.
00:17:02.25\00:17:04.22
Right, so it's
grounded in reality,
00:17:04.25\00:17:06.49
it's not grounded in fantasy.
00:17:06.52\00:17:08.16
Jesus was actually there
with me when I went through it
00:17:08.19\00:17:11.16
and so, to find
healing in that chapter
00:17:11.19\00:17:14.10
that when I felt unsafe...
00:17:14.13\00:17:15.53
whenever I felt
rejected or unloved,
00:17:15.56\00:17:17.07
that actually isn't true
00:17:17.10\00:17:18.90
and to have that
redefine my reality...
00:17:18.93\00:17:21.30
based upon something
that's Biblically provable,
00:17:21.34\00:17:23.27
was life changing
for me and liberating
00:17:23.30\00:17:25.67
that I can tell my story
and not feel ashamed anymore.
00:17:25.71\00:17:28.54
Well, for example in
Revelation 13, it says,
00:17:28.61\00:17:31.31
"He's a Lamb slain from the
foundation of the world... "
00:17:31.35\00:17:33.35
because some people say,
00:17:33.38\00:17:34.72
"Well, He was only abused
for a few hours... it was bad...
00:17:34.75\00:17:36.69
it was only a few
hours... it was a day... "
00:17:36.75\00:17:38.25
"He's a Lamb slain from the
foundation of the world... "
00:17:38.29\00:17:40.82
so somehow as God...
00:17:40.86\00:17:42.19
He took all the
abuse... all the abandonment...
00:17:42.22\00:17:44.63
all the betrayal...
all the rejection...
00:17:44.66\00:17:46.33
into his suffering,
death and resurrection.
00:17:46.36\00:17:47.96
So we want to...
00:17:48.00\00:17:49.33
I don't know that I would
use the word, "Visualization"
00:17:49.36\00:17:52.53
because that's not what we...
00:17:52.57\00:17:53.90
It's a trigger word...
people are going to pick out
00:17:53.94\00:17:55.44
and think it's "New Age"
00:17:55.47\00:17:56.81
but there's an appropriate
use of the imagination
00:17:56.84\00:17:58.87
that's very remedial.
00:17:58.91\00:18:00.24
I would say, "Where in
His story did He go through
00:18:00.28\00:18:01.81
similar
experiences to identify with me
00:18:01.84\00:18:03.88
so that I would know,
00:18:03.91\00:18:05.51
experientially in
my mind and heart,
00:18:05.55\00:18:07.52
which is a new covenant
00:18:07.55\00:18:08.88
not just my head but
in my mind and my heart
00:18:08.92\00:18:10.85
He was there with me
00:18:10.89\00:18:12.49
and what does He want
me to know about that. "
00:18:12.52\00:18:14.82
This is why, actually it
says that Enoch cultivated...
00:18:14.86\00:18:18.29
or some people will pronounce
"Enoch" in a different way,
00:18:18.33\00:18:21.73
but... that he
cultivated the "presence of God"
00:18:21.76\00:18:25.43
and when I read
that, I was just like,
00:18:25.50\00:18:26.84
"Wow! that's really interesting,
00:18:26.87\00:18:28.20
'cultivated the
presence of God... '"
00:18:28.24\00:18:29.57
because the
presence of God is there...
00:18:29.60\00:18:30.94
I think it's
just that we don't...
00:18:30.97\00:18:32.64
we're intentional
about remembering,
00:18:32.67\00:18:34.41
"He was right here with us... "
00:18:34.44\00:18:35.78
and we need to make
sure that we remember that.
00:18:35.81\00:18:38.41
She said that we should spend
a thoughtful hour every day
00:18:38.45\00:18:40.88
thinking about the
closing scenes of Christ's life
00:18:40.92\00:18:44.25
using our imagination...
00:18:44.29\00:18:45.75
but the difference is,
we're not making it up,
00:18:45.79\00:18:49.09
we're not thinking
about Biblical meditation,
00:18:49.12\00:18:51.56
we're thinking about
what He went through,
00:18:51.59\00:18:54.00
at every step of His
journey to be there with us.
00:18:54.03\00:18:56.67
See, I believe everything
that is working in the world,
00:18:56.70\00:18:59.50
has... if it's working...
if it's indeed working...
00:18:59.53\00:19:02.27
in a truly
therapeutic way has...
00:19:02.30\00:19:04.87
it's traceable back
to a Biblical principle,
00:19:04.91\00:19:07.31
so you're talking about being
aware of the presence of God,
00:19:07.34\00:19:11.35
they call that "mindfulness"
00:19:11.38\00:19:12.71
but they're mindful of things
that aren't Biblically based
00:19:12.75\00:19:15.68
so to me... like the
Biblical form of mindfulness
00:19:15.72\00:19:18.65
is way far beyond
anything the world can offer,
00:19:18.69\00:19:21.26
so people are really getting
a little bit of the fact,
00:19:21.29\00:19:24.69
they can have profound effect
00:19:24.73\00:19:26.13
if they would trace that
back to the Biblical principle
00:19:26.16\00:19:28.93
that is at work,
00:19:28.96\00:19:30.30
so, do you, in your
work recommend that people
00:19:30.33\00:19:34.40
confront parents
00:19:34.44\00:19:37.31
when they've
experienced difficulties
00:19:37.34\00:19:39.44
because of their parents...
do you run across any of this
00:19:39.47\00:19:41.91
and are there times
when people shouldn't
00:19:41.94\00:19:43.35
and times when they should?
00:19:43.38\00:19:44.71
Absolutely, Jennifer, I
think it's very important
00:19:44.75\00:19:47.62
that people... first before
going to confront a parent,
00:19:47.65\00:19:50.42
experience their own healing
00:19:50.45\00:19:52.25
and that's the positive
thing that can come out of this,
00:19:52.29\00:19:54.56
when you go to confront somebody
00:19:54.59\00:19:55.92
that you don't come...
with... with a negative attitude
00:19:55.96\00:19:58.96
or you don't come with
trying to make them regret
00:19:58.99\00:20:02.16
any of the things
that have happened,
00:20:02.23\00:20:03.57
but you're
trying to go with them,
00:20:03.60\00:20:04.93
to say, "I have found
healing and I'm forgiving you,
00:20:04.97\00:20:07.14
let me tell you what
and how it happened... "
00:20:07.17\00:20:08.90
and I think that's important
00:20:08.94\00:20:10.27
the other thing...
Dee, it struck me that...
00:20:10.31\00:20:12.44
that when you remembered
back to five-years-old...
00:20:12.47\00:20:14.01
how all this happened,
00:20:14.04\00:20:15.38
the
inter-generational transference,
00:20:15.41\00:20:16.85
of some of the negative emotions
00:20:16.88\00:20:18.21
and the trauma
that you experienced
00:20:18.25\00:20:19.88
and then you came full circle
00:20:19.91\00:20:21.85
with inter-generational
transference of positive things
00:20:21.88\00:20:24.65
like, your
father... coming to Christ...
00:20:24.69\00:20:26.42
you coming to Christ...
00:20:26.45\00:20:27.79
your mother
eventually coming to Christ,
00:20:27.82\00:20:29.16
and so, maybe if you
could share some of that with us
00:20:29.19\00:20:31.06
about how that happened and
the impact on your ministry.
00:20:31.09\00:20:33.23
For sure, I recognized
by seeing the root issues,
00:20:33.29\00:20:36.77
it actually fixed some problems
that I was still causing
00:20:36.80\00:20:39.70
later in life...
while in ministry
00:20:39.73\00:20:41.44
I came to realize that
inter-personal differences
00:20:41.47\00:20:44.11
that I was having with people,
00:20:44.14\00:20:45.47
not lots of them... but
still I'd have some moments
00:20:45.51\00:20:47.91
or, I would
still have the tendency
00:20:47.94\00:20:49.71
to want to be in
control to protect myself
00:20:49.74\00:20:51.71
and...
00:20:51.75\00:20:53.08
through finding
healing this way,
00:20:53.11\00:20:54.75
I've learned to
handle situations
00:20:54.78\00:20:56.55
like the
interpersonal relationships
00:20:56.58\00:20:57.92
in a far different way
00:20:57.95\00:20:59.29
so it's brought
continued healing
00:20:59.32\00:21:00.96
and future healing
for other people too
00:21:00.99\00:21:02.39
so I won't hurt them now.
00:21:02.42\00:21:03.76
So, how do you
know if someone's ready
00:21:03.79\00:21:05.83
for you to talk to them?
00:21:05.86\00:21:07.20
Jean: That's an
excellent question.
00:21:07.23\00:21:08.56
Jennifer: Yeah,
like, you want to go...
00:21:08.60\00:21:10.40
you feel like you're at a
place where you're healed enough
00:21:10.43\00:21:13.03
and forgiving
enough to go to the person
00:21:13.07\00:21:14.87
and have that
needed-but-difficult discussion.
00:21:14.90\00:21:17.74
Jean: Yeah, Christine and
I were talking about that.
00:21:17.77\00:21:19.67
Christine: Yeah, if
I may weigh in on that,
00:21:19.74\00:21:21.31
I think the Holy
Spirit is really the only One
00:21:21.34\00:21:23.48
that can tell us
when we're ready for that,
00:21:23.51\00:21:26.18
but, also we can kind
of gauge by our emotions,
00:21:26.21\00:21:28.85
"Are we still experiencing a lot
of animosity toward the person?"
00:21:28.88\00:21:31.62
If we are, then if
we go to that person
00:21:31.65\00:21:33.59
it's more than likely
going to be a worse experience
00:21:33.62\00:21:36.42
than if we went when we
had that healing already
00:21:36.46\00:21:39.19
we could confront them in love
00:21:39.23\00:21:40.90
and be able to actually have
a dialogue that's productive.
00:21:40.93\00:21:44.73
So, I like that if
it's the Holy Spirit
00:21:44.77\00:21:46.23
because the Holy
Spirit is a person,
00:21:46.27\00:21:47.64
you know, and the
Holy Spirit is relational
00:21:47.67\00:21:50.37
and so, He can lead us
00:21:50.41\00:21:51.74
to make sure that
there's a good outcome.
00:21:51.77\00:21:54.04
Do you think there's a
place for human agencies
00:21:54.08\00:21:56.98
i. e. Counselors... Groups...
00:21:57.01\00:21:58.81
people supporting you
through this difficult process
00:21:58.85\00:22:02.02
and providing counsel for you,
00:22:02.05\00:22:04.15
there's safety in a
multitude of counselors
00:22:04.19\00:22:06.12
and then, giving
you emotional support
00:22:06.15\00:22:08.19
through what has all
been a very traumatic event.
00:22:08.22\00:22:10.66
Going back to
the source of trauma
00:22:10.69\00:22:12.49
and trying to work through
00:22:12.53\00:22:13.86
and there's no guarantee
of how it's going to turn out
00:22:13.90\00:22:15.66
so, we'll be...
00:22:15.70\00:22:17.03
A multitude of counselors,
that will be great...
00:22:17.07\00:22:18.40
Do you like counseling?
00:22:18.43\00:22:19.77
That would be a good show.
00:22:19.80\00:22:21.14
That would be a good program.
00:22:21.17\00:22:22.50
We should suggest that to 3ABN.
00:22:22.54\00:22:23.87
Well, I appreciate it because
00:22:23.91\00:22:25.24
I've had people come
along my journey and help me
00:22:25.27\00:22:26.94
when someone that I'm
going to make amends with...
00:22:26.98\00:22:29.64
forgives, or she
forgives... isn't ready...
00:22:29.68\00:22:32.11
and I think,
coming in, Jesus said,
00:22:32.15\00:22:35.85
"Where two or three are
gathered, I am there... "
00:22:35.88\00:22:37.45
He said, "Be wise as a
serpent, harmless as a dove... "
00:22:37.49\00:22:40.59
and so in hurting relationships,
00:22:40.66\00:22:42.76
sometimes, some of my
journey is going to be
00:22:42.79\00:22:45.13
God working with me alone.
00:22:45.16\00:22:46.70
"We should pray privately,
I'll reward you openly. "
00:22:46.73\00:22:49.46
He also said, "Where two or
three are gathered in my name"
00:22:49.50\00:22:51.40
it's not "either... or... "
00:22:51.43\00:22:52.77
a lot of times, we
mixed up... either... or...
00:22:52.80\00:22:54.24
I think it should be both and...
00:22:54.27\00:22:56.20
and I've had people pray with
me lead to a lot of healing...
00:22:56.24\00:22:59.64
to let me to go and
like, talk with my dad...
00:22:59.67\00:23:01.91
so God was using other
people, we have Support Groups,
00:23:01.94\00:23:04.78
we have Counselors that
can help us ask questions
00:23:04.81\00:23:07.42
and pray with us
and then take some time
00:23:07.45\00:23:09.38
and say, "God,
how are you leading me
00:23:09.42\00:23:11.35
in this journey right
now, what's the next step?"
00:23:11.39\00:23:13.36
And they can also be very
helpful in helping us not walk
00:23:13.39\00:23:16.96
even ignorantly, even
if we have had healing,
00:23:16.99\00:23:19.56
we can ignorantly
say things that are...
00:23:19.59\00:23:21.33
make the situation worse,
00:23:21.36\00:23:22.73
I recently went
through a situation
00:23:22.76\00:23:24.20
where I was
writing someone a letter,
00:23:24.23\00:23:26.07
touchy situation...
and I had two friends
00:23:26.10\00:23:28.70
that I shared it
with... say, "No, don't... "
00:23:28.74\00:23:31.31
and I was so glad
I listened to them
00:23:31.34\00:23:33.24
because it turned out to
be totally the wrong approach,
00:23:33.27\00:23:34.74
so...
00:23:34.78\00:23:36.18
Paul: So we get that feedback
00:23:36.21\00:23:37.55
and I would decide with
the person I'd talk about
00:23:37.58\00:23:39.25
some of the wrong ways we
can go if we're not healed...
00:23:39.28\00:23:41.85
if I go and my focus
is more in you being wrong
00:23:41.88\00:23:44.49
than my journey of healing...
00:23:44.52\00:23:46.15
when Dee went,
00:23:46.19\00:23:47.52
he really wasn't about
his mom being bad and wrong,
00:23:47.56\00:23:48.89
it was about his journey
and then his dad gets a blessing
00:23:48.92\00:23:52.43
he gets a blessing, his
mom starts writing to people
00:23:52.46\00:23:54.76
so now you have a
multi-generational pattern
00:23:54.80\00:23:57.07
of blessings going forward...
00:23:57.10\00:23:58.50
you know, we say,
"Pay it forward... "
00:23:58.53\00:24:00.34
so it can work both ways...
the devil doesn't want that...
00:24:00.37\00:24:03.04
Jennifer: Wait, go
back to the part about...
00:24:03.07\00:24:05.61
so, he didn't just go
to... what did you say?
00:24:05.67\00:24:08.18
Paul: He didn't go
to his mom and say,
00:24:08.21\00:24:09.58
"Here's what
you did that's wrong
00:24:09.61\00:24:10.95
and I am high-and-mighty
00:24:10.98\00:24:12.31
and I am self-righteous
and I'm forgiving you. "
00:24:12.35\00:24:13.68
So what did he go
to his mom to say?
00:24:13.72\00:24:15.38
He went and
talked about his journey,
00:24:15.42\00:24:16.79
how he had been hurt and
how he is getting healing
00:24:16.82\00:24:19.75
so he's telling a
story about his journey
00:24:19.79\00:24:22.96
as opposed to, "You're wrong,
00:24:22.99\00:24:24.39
here's what you
did to hurt me... "
00:24:24.46\00:24:26.09
that's a different move.
00:24:26.13\00:24:27.46
So what's the difference
between those two things,
00:24:27.50\00:24:30.10
isn't here what we call,
"internal locus of control"
00:24:30.13\00:24:31.47
where you're
taking responsibility,
00:24:31.50\00:24:32.83
for your own
emotions... your own experience
00:24:32.87\00:24:34.57
within the context of
what that person did to you
00:24:34.60\00:24:36.40
and you're saying,
00:24:36.44\00:24:37.77
"Here's... here... I'm
owning myself... and my...
00:24:37.81\00:24:40.34
I'm taking
responsibility for my experience
00:24:40.38\00:24:42.44
let me share it with you
00:24:42.51\00:24:43.85
because I want to have
a relationship with you. "
00:24:43.88\00:24:45.35
Jean and I have been
talking about that off-camera
00:24:45.38\00:24:46.92
where... maybe
you can share, Jean,
00:24:46.95\00:24:48.28
the language that Dee
was using as he was sharing.
00:24:48.32\00:24:51.42
Yeah, he was
using "I" statements.
00:24:51.45\00:24:53.25
Jennifer: That's right.
00:24:53.29\00:24:54.62
Jean: And that's very powerful
00:24:54.66\00:24:55.99
and to your point
about pointing at people...
00:24:56.02\00:24:57.69
sometimes your words
are pointing at people
00:24:57.73\00:24:59.46
you're
accusatory in your tone...
00:24:59.49\00:25:01.20
in your words...
in your blaming...
00:25:01.23\00:25:02.86
whereas what Dee
was sharing with us was,
00:25:02.90\00:25:04.73
"I had an experience...
this is my journey... "
00:25:04.77\00:25:07.77
and this is how you play
the role in it, certainly,
00:25:07.80\00:25:10.67
but I think that
using the "I" statements
00:25:10.71\00:25:13.58
and owning it as Jennifer stated
00:25:13.61\00:25:15.04
is not only
healing for the individual,
00:25:15.08\00:25:17.21
it also allows
the person to come in
00:25:17.25\00:25:18.98
and be a part of
the story with you
00:25:19.01\00:25:20.72
understanding that I
don't have to be defensive
00:25:20.75\00:25:22.85
and I think when you put
people in the defensive mode,
00:25:22.88\00:25:25.55
it kind of
tweaks the conversation
00:25:25.59\00:25:28.06
in a way that you don't
want it to go to Christina's...
00:25:28.09\00:25:30.03
So if I come to you and share,
"You know Jean, you hurt me...
00:25:30.06\00:25:32.39
and I'm here to forgive you... "
00:25:32.43\00:25:33.86
is that going to build a bridge
or is that going to build walls?
00:25:33.90\00:25:37.57
Jean: I need a
little context first.
00:25:37.60\00:25:38.93
Jennifer: So what
you do is you say,
00:25:38.97\00:25:40.30
"I experienced pain
when you said that... "
00:25:40.34\00:25:43.07
and can you put the best
construction on it and say,
00:25:43.10\00:25:46.04
"I know you were
dealing with your own stuff
00:25:46.07\00:25:48.21
and did not mean to
have that effect on me... "
00:25:48.24\00:25:49.81
could you say
that in most cases?
00:25:49.84\00:25:51.38
Yeah, yeah... and
that's what you said, Dee
00:25:51.41\00:25:53.11
when you were talking
to her... his mother...
00:25:53.15\00:25:54.82
he would say, "I knew
you were going through
00:25:54.85\00:25:56.95
A, B, C and D... and
this is how it affected me"
00:25:56.99\00:25:59.02
and so, he was showing
empathy to his mother's journey
00:25:59.05\00:26:03.02
and into the
difficulties that his mother had
00:26:03.06\00:26:04.86
and expressed to her...
00:26:04.89\00:26:06.23
"This is how
what you went through
00:26:06.26\00:26:07.80
impacted me as a child. "
00:26:07.86\00:26:09.20
And, she was in a place where
she was able to receive it.
00:26:09.23\00:26:12.43
Six months
later... a month earlier...
00:26:12.47\00:26:14.90
a year earlier wouldn't be...
00:26:14.94\00:26:16.27
so the Holy Spirit tells
you, "Now is the time... "
00:26:16.30\00:26:17.64
Jennifer: But how do you know?
00:26:17.67\00:26:19.01
Paul: And it's
just not for Dee...
00:26:19.04\00:26:20.58
the Holy Spirit is taking
into consideration, Dee's mom
00:26:20.61\00:26:23.35
because there's two people
00:26:23.38\00:26:24.71
that are going to be
in this conversation.
00:26:24.75\00:26:26.08
How do you know,
though, that the Holy Spirit...
00:26:26.11\00:26:28.25
I mean, I know
it's a big question
00:26:28.28\00:26:29.62
and we may not
have time for it...
00:26:29.65\00:26:30.99
I would be praying with
him first and ask him first,
00:26:31.02\00:26:32.35
"How much peace do you have,
00:26:32.39\00:26:33.72
have you looked at
some of the minefields,
00:26:33.76\00:26:35.09
are you going to use "I"
statements or "You" statements?
00:26:35.12\00:26:37.09
Are you going to
talk about your journey
00:26:37.13\00:26:39.39
or are you going to tell
00:26:39.43\00:26:40.83
how you've been
wronged by the person?
00:26:40.86\00:26:42.20
What's your focus?
00:26:42.23\00:26:43.57
And help them... like you said,
00:26:43.60\00:26:44.93
you showed a letter to your
friends and you got feedback,
00:26:44.97\00:26:48.27
"Is this person open
to getting feedback?"
00:26:48.30\00:26:50.21
To avoid a lot
of these mistakes.
00:26:50.24\00:26:52.64
I think, sometimes too,
00:26:52.67\00:26:54.01
we feel compelled to say
something at a certain time
00:26:54.04\00:26:57.28
and I think that sometimes
it's not the right emotion
00:26:57.31\00:27:00.62
like, it might be
righteous indignation...
00:27:00.65\00:27:02.72
well, sometimes
it is the right time
00:27:02.75\00:27:04.72
if it's righteous indignation
00:27:04.75\00:27:06.09
but other times, it
might be sinful or...
00:27:06.12\00:27:07.46
I don't want to say,
"anger" but it's just this...
00:27:07.49\00:27:11.26
Dee talked about fear
too so it's just not anger...
00:27:11.29\00:27:15.10
but... yeah...
00:27:15.16\00:27:17.33
But anger tends to
a secondary emotion
00:27:17.37\00:27:19.10
in response to fear so
to try to protect ourselves
00:27:19.13\00:27:21.40
from what we're afraid of...
00:27:21.44\00:27:22.77
a lot of times, we'll
come across... aggressive.
00:27:22.80\00:27:24.14
I think,
sometimes when we feel that,
00:27:24.17\00:27:25.77
we think, "Oh,
wow! now is the time,
00:27:25.81\00:27:27.31
I'd better say something...
because if I don't say it now,
00:27:27.38\00:27:28.88
it's never going to happen... "
00:27:28.94\00:27:30.51
Well, I think we have to be
very careful... and really...
00:27:30.55\00:27:32.68
through our
searching of our own hearts
00:27:32.71\00:27:34.55
and
surrendering that to the Lord
00:27:34.58\00:27:35.98
and if we're close to God,
He's going to be talking to us
00:27:36.05\00:27:38.95
and if we're not
hearing a voice...
00:27:39.02\00:27:40.36
that means we need to
spend more time with Him too
00:27:40.39\00:27:42.26
to be able to hear that voice
and experience His guidance.
00:27:42.29\00:27:45.49
Amen, we're going
to have to wind up,
00:27:45.53\00:27:47.43
this is a vital discussion,
00:27:47.46\00:27:48.86
if you've been wounded as
a result of a broken home,
00:27:48.90\00:27:51.53
there's help and
hope and healing for you,
00:27:51.57\00:27:54.14
we just want to encourage you.
00:27:54.17\00:27:56.44
Thank you for being
with us during this Program
00:27:56.47\00:27:58.67
on the Multitude of Counselors.
00:27:58.71\00:28:00.28