Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
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We're so glad you
came to our program today.
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This is where you will learn
about the things that involved
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the inner life of
human beings, the psyche.
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We're gonna talk
about mental health
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and we're gonna try
to provide for you some
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viable practical solutions
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for some of life's
most difficult problems.
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My name is
Jennifer Jill Schwirzer
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and I'm a
counselor in private practice
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and I want to introduce to
you my treatment team here.
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First of all we
have David Guererro,
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he is from Wisconsin.
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David is a pastor, a life coach,
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a chaplain and he
is also studying for,
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to become a...
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Naturopathic doctor,
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he runs a ministry
called Rekindle the Flame,
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under which he does seminars
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and he has a wonderful family
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and a beautiful piece
of property in Wisconsin.
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So glad to have you here, David.
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Thank you to be here.
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Now I want to know
what you have to say.
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We also have Nivischi Edwards.
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Dr. Nivischi is from Tennessee
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and Dr. Nivischi runs a
virtual private practice,
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and that simply mean
she has distance clients
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and she also teaches at
Southern Adventist University,
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is an inspiring author
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and she loves to
work with individuals
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to develop good relationships
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including good
relationships with themselves,
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yeah, which is powerful.
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Thank you.
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And we have Dr. Jean Wright.
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Dr. Jean is from Philadelphia,
my stomping ground as well,
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in fact he goes to my church,
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and Dr. Jean works with
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the Behavioral Health Department
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of Philadelphia
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as the director of
Behavioral Health and Justice,
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is that right,
Services, that's right.
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That's right, yeah.
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And Dr. Jean has a book
that he has written called,
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what it's called again?
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"Find Strength
in Your Struggle."
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"Find Strength
in Your Struggle."
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Dr. Jean has a private practice
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and he also likes to work
on the side with community,
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forgiveness and restoration
going into the prisons
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and working
with that population.
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And we have Rob last
but not least Rob Davidson.
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He is my co-host
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and he works with me in
Abide Counseling Network.
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He has a private
practice in the DC area,
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and Rob really does a great job
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with just about
anything he tries,
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he is a gifted
and natural counselor
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but he likes to also help
men develop servant leadership
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and biblical
integrity and manhood,
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so that's a much
needed focus and emphasis.
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And it's so awesome that
each one of you are here,
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and I want to just say that
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if anyone is ever
curious about these individuals,
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you can go to our website
at amultitudeofcounselors.tv
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and look out to
get more information,
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and in some cases get
free downloads and documents
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and who knows what
they're gonna have up there
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but if you need more info,
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go to that website
amultitudeofcounselors.tv.
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So our topic today is Psychosis.
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Psychosis, first and foremost
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I want to get a definition
of psychosis up there.
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Psychosis is a
severe mental disorder
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in which thought and
emotions are so impaired
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that contact is lost
with external reality.
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So the main
illnesses or disorders
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that involves psychosis
are schizophrenia and bipolar.
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Bipolar can have psychotic
symptoms and schizophrenia,
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pretty much always
has psychotic symptoms.
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But also street drugs, alcohol,
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sometimes traumatic brain injury
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or other kinds of brain injury
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can trigger a psychotic episode.
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So what are some of
the symptoms of psychosis?
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Let's look at that next.
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First of all disorganized
thoughts and speech,
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false beliefs
not based in reality,
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we call those delusions,
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particularly
unfounded fear or suspicion,
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the KGB is after me,
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the CIA has my
number type stuff.
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Hearing, seeing
or feeling things
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that are not there
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and we call
those hallucinations.
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And thoughts that jump
between unrelated topics,
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that's disordered thinking.
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Those are some of the
classic markers of psychosis.
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What about the
prevalence of psychosis?
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Well, the latest research says
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that schizophrenia is about
1 percent of the population.
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We were talking
about this today how...
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I was saying that
maybe the fact that
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we don't
encounter a lot of people
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with active schizophrenia
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is because they
migrate to the streets.
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But you were saying now
most people with schizophrenia
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manage it with medication
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and however the street populate,
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the homeless
population is by and large
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where many of them are
suffering with schizophrenia,
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is that correct?
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Correct. Yeah.
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Bipolar's higher, more bipolar,
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4.4 percent?
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I think bipolar is
more of a spectrum disorder
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and schizophrenia is more like
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kind of you
have it or you don't,
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is my observation, would
you guys agree with that?
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Yes.
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You can have a
mild form of bipolar
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and kind of
manage it with lifestyle
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and maybe some herbs and stuff
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and then you can
have severe bipolar,
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we really do have a
lot of psychotic symptoms.
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And the cause thought to be
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a combination of
genetics and environment.
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I understand that
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there are more
children with schizophrenia born
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in the spring time
which makes me wonder
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what's going on with mother
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when she has the baby in utero
during those darker months,
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I don't know if there is
sunshine exposure things,
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vitamin D, who knows.
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I don't know that we
have any solid data on that,
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but I want to talk briefly about
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what's going on neurologically
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because I want to
bring something out,
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and what I want to talk
about is dopamine pathways.
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Dopamine is a neuro transmitter
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that has to do largely
with experience of pleasure
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but it's
involved in schizophrenia,
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and I would
just like to say that
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anything that disrupts
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the normal
chemistry of the brain,
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at least in my
thinking could potentially
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set a person out
for a psychotic episode
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if they have that
tendency to begin with,
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and that's why I
personally don't use caffeine
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'cause caffeine
effects the dopamine circuit.
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So just want to
throw that out there.
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The prognosis for psychotic
disorders is that they are,
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they need to be managed
and by the grace of God,
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good lifestyle,
good social support
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and sometimes medication,
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they can be managed
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and people can have
good healthy reasonable,
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functional lives,
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but they must be managed.
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The treatments typically are,
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in my observation and
from the reading I've done,
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most bipolar, at
least the severe types
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and definitely schizophrenia
need to be medicated
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because what you
have with these disorders
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is not just lifestyle problems
and faulty patterns of thinking
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that can be
changed or faulty patterns
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or behavior that can be changed
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but you have
organic brain disease
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where there's
just a fixed disorder
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in the organic
aspect of the brain itself.
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So there is
something going wrong there
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and sad as it is,
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that person may have to
wait until Jesus comes again
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and then the
twinkling of an eye,
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corruption will
put on incorruption.
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And until then they may have
to manage it with medication
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and that is not a failure,
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and I really want
to get that message out
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to those that
wrestle with these things
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or know people that do.
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This is not a failure,
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if you need to use
medication to manage something,
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don't add insult to injury
by heaping blame upon yourself.
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Do the best you can
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and that's all
God requires of you.
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Amen?
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Amen. Amen.
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So what do you guys do to
help people with these issues
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and I know you, Jean,
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particularly have daily contact
with this type of thing, no?
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I do... Yeah.
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And it's part of the, you know,
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the part of when I go
into the prison system
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and talk with generally men
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that I'm dealing with
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that have been
diagnosed with schizophrenia
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or bipolar I or
bipolar II disorder,
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and it is
managed with medication
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and sometimes people feel
like especially with bipolar,
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they start feeling
better and they think,
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well, I can stop my
medication, I feel fine.
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You know, and I tell
people at the time, you know,
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don't feel like you are damaged
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because you have to take
medication for your illness.
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Take medication, it
helps you balance your mind,
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the organic issue
and they said, well,
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I should be able to
pray and get rid of that.
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I tell them pray without ceasing
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and take your medication.
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That's right.
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You know, we do the
same thing with diabetes,
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heart disease,
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we tell people
take your medication
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and so we should do the same...
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And this is the thing,
we don't have this thing
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about physical illnesses,
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particularly things that people
did not bring upon themselves,
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it's not a choice that
they made it and wake up
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on morning and say,
"I want to be diabetic."
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You know maybe they
have Type 1 diabetes
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and there is really
nothing they can do.
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We don't blame them.
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No, it's a break
with reality. Yeah.
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So it's not something
that you can necessarily
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just get rid off
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as you said by
powerful, positive thing.
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Pull yourself out of...
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It was something that I believe
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God has placed
professionals on this earth
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to assist one another.
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So human beings, we're
here to help one another.
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So some of us have
a particular skill,
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that with God's
grace and with preparation
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that we can help one another,
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one of those is a
mental health professional.
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And so we have
physicians that has specialties,
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we have lots of
people who has specialties,
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and this is one that I
think if you can get a counselor
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that knows what they are doing
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and is prayed up,
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then you have a good combination
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to manage your mental health.
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That's powerful.
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So what do you say to
people that have this set back,
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they are just,
they are born with this
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or whatever and it's just,
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they don't want it,
they didn't ask for it
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but they suffer with it
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and life is a
battle because if then,
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it's harder for them
that it is for other people.
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What do you say to
them when they say why me?
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Why didn't God, you know,
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why did God let
this happen to me?
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When it sort of interrupts
their feelings toward God,
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what do you say to them?
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Oh, we typically see with
different types of psychosis is
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it's not just an
issue with the person
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who is
struggling with the illness
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but it's a family,
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it's a system's
challenge as well.
00:10:11.41\00:10:13.54
So if I am
struggling with schizophrenia,
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my spouse is also struggling
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because it's impacting
our marriage relationship,
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it's impacting the children,
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it's impacting my
parents and my siblings
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and so I tend to ask
them to look at the impact
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that it's having
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and that tends to
aid with the empathy
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and assists with
the desire for change
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because that's where it starts.
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If I'm
struggling with an illness
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and I don't see it
or I don't believe it,
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and I don't want to
do anything about it
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then I won't.
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However, if I see the
impact is having on me,
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on those I love
and those who love me,
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that will sometimes
help me to make the shifts
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in order to make the
changes that are necessary.
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So you're drawing
them out of themselves,
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it's not really,
nobody lives in a vacuum,
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it's not only affecting you,
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it's affecting
everyone around you.
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Absolutely.
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And one thing I say to
people, it isn't your fault,
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but it is your responsibility,
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what you're gonna
do with this thing,
00:11:09.83\00:11:11.17
you know, this gift
so to speak, you know,
00:11:11.20\00:11:13.77
and I know you don't like it
00:11:13.80\00:11:15.14
but what you are
gonna do with it?
00:11:15.17\00:11:16.81
Are you gonna
handle in such a way
00:11:16.84\00:11:18.17
that it hurts other people
00:11:18.21\00:11:19.67
or you're gonna try to handle
00:11:19.71\00:11:21.04
in the most
responsible way possible,
00:11:21.08\00:11:22.41
and don't we use family therapy
00:11:22.44\00:11:24.61
typically with
treatment of schizophrenia
00:11:24.65\00:11:26.55
because the tendency
00:11:26.58\00:11:27.92
and from what I understand
schiz means to tear away,
00:11:27.95\00:11:30.62
and so one of
the primary feature,
00:11:30.65\00:11:32.05
people thinks schizophrenia
is two personalities,
00:11:32.09\00:11:34.09
it's not true at all,
00:11:34.12\00:11:35.46
that's associated by
gender disorder very rare,
00:11:35.49\00:11:37.53
schizophrenia is
much more common.
00:11:37.56\00:11:39.19
Schiz from what I
understand means to pull away
00:11:39.23\00:11:41.16
because the
tendency of the person
00:11:41.20\00:11:42.60
with
schizophrenia is to isolate,
00:11:42.63\00:11:44.83
and so a lot of the
treatment isn't just medication.
00:11:44.87\00:11:47.57
Again, counseling,
interventions and medication,
00:11:47.60\00:11:51.37
and bringing on that
person into fellowship
00:11:51.41\00:11:53.98
and building
the relationships...
00:11:54.01\00:11:55.34
And so it's
educating those around them,
00:11:55.38\00:11:57.55
so it's a system's approach.
00:11:57.58\00:11:59.15
It's not just the person
who is identified as the client
00:11:59.18\00:12:02.42
but those who are around
them in their immediate circles
00:12:02.45\00:12:05.02
and even their
social circles as well
00:12:05.05\00:12:06.82
to aid in their
treatment process.
00:12:06.86\00:12:08.89
And isn't this why,
00:12:08.92\00:12:10.29
was it Nash, was his first name,
00:12:10.33\00:12:12.73
the famous Nobel
peace prize winner...
00:12:12.76\00:12:16.46
Yes.
00:12:16.50\00:12:17.83
The movie "Beautiful Mind"
00:12:17.87\00:12:19.20
isn't the reason
that they kept him there
00:12:19.23\00:12:20.84
at the university
was because they knew
00:12:20.87\00:12:23.04
that if they kept him,
00:12:23.07\00:12:24.41
if he moved away
after he retired,
00:12:24.44\00:12:26.81
he would isolate...
00:12:26.84\00:12:28.18
Absolutely.
00:12:28.21\00:12:29.54
He would get worse
but they kept in there
00:12:29.58\00:12:30.91
because they all understood him,
00:12:30.95\00:12:32.28
they got him, they knew him
00:12:32.31\00:12:33.65
and they loved him in
spite of his idiosyncrasy.
00:12:33.68\00:12:35.02
And he needed that support.
00:12:35.05\00:12:36.38
Yeah, there is no better place
00:12:36.42\00:12:38.12
to find that
sometimes than church,
00:12:38.15\00:12:39.59
you know, and if
only we would know
00:12:39.62\00:12:41.66
how to help people
with these illnesses
00:12:41.69\00:12:43.89
and how not to
like blame them for
00:12:43.93\00:12:46.66
having spiritual
problems or, you know,
00:12:46.70\00:12:49.33
assuming that
it's demon possession
00:12:49.36\00:12:51.03
or whatever and
further isolating them,
00:12:51.07\00:12:53.80
if only we knew
how to draw them in,
00:12:53.84\00:12:55.70
you know, I think the church
could be even more therapeutic
00:12:55.74\00:12:58.27
than it already is.
00:12:58.31\00:12:59.64
As you see that and
we talk about support
00:12:59.67\00:13:02.21
in answering the question,
00:13:02.24\00:13:03.58
or at least attempting to
answer the question why me?
00:13:03.61\00:13:07.12
One thing that I like to
do is try to invite the person
00:13:07.15\00:13:10.12
to consider where
have they seen God
00:13:10.15\00:13:12.55
in the experience?
00:13:12.59\00:13:14.06
So it's taking
them out of themselves
00:13:14.09\00:13:15.49
and looking for God
and looking at a promise,
00:13:15.52\00:13:17.83
well, promises, Bible promises,
00:13:17.86\00:13:19.23
the one is, two are, you know,
00:13:19.26\00:13:21.06
Jesus says in
the Book of Mathew,
00:13:21.10\00:13:22.83
"Lord I'm with you always,
even to the end of the world."
00:13:22.86\00:13:26.53
And in Hebrews 13, it says,
00:13:26.57\00:13:29.54
"I will be with you always."
00:13:29.57\00:13:31.07
And this says the
Lord is my helper.
00:13:31.11\00:13:33.38
And inviting the person to
just talk a little bit about
00:13:33.41\00:13:36.75
where have they seen
Jesus in their experience,
00:13:36.78\00:13:39.35
where is God?
00:13:39.38\00:13:41.12
Or perhaps, where
they sense God isn't?
00:13:41.15\00:13:46.82
And let's take it sometime
00:13:46.86\00:13:48.32
and talk about
the presence of God
00:13:48.36\00:13:49.99
and where he is
and where he is not
00:13:50.03\00:13:51.96
and let's bring God
into the experience.
00:13:51.99\00:13:53.80
Sometimes the best way to get
00:13:53.83\00:13:55.56
into the light is to
get out of the darkness.
00:13:55.60\00:13:57.80
And I think if Paul
was here, he would been,
00:13:57.83\00:13:59.73
so I'll do it in his
absence, he would point out that
00:13:59.77\00:14:03.10
Jesus experienced on the cross
00:14:03.14\00:14:05.37
what we might
call psychotic break.
00:14:05.41\00:14:06.81
I mean, he had
such an emotional,
00:14:06.84\00:14:09.34
mental meltdown that it caused
00:14:09.38\00:14:11.45
physical symptoms that
ultimately took His life.
00:14:11.48\00:14:14.65
So when you say
Paul, Paul Coneff.
00:14:14.68\00:14:16.02
Paul Coneff, yeah.
00:14:16.05\00:14:17.39
Okay, not the Apostle
Paul. Not the apostle.
00:14:17.42\00:14:18.95
I don't have personal
relationship with him,
00:14:18.99\00:14:21.36
or you think I
was being so close,
00:14:21.39\00:14:23.29
but Paul Coneff would say,
00:14:23.32\00:14:25.43
'cause he always
leads us to the cross
00:14:25.46\00:14:26.96
and he would say that, you know,
00:14:27.00\00:14:28.70
Jesus suffered something like,
00:14:28.73\00:14:31.00
maybe not what we
call a psychotic break
00:14:31.03\00:14:32.93
but he
definitely had a meltdown,
00:14:32.97\00:14:34.80
that was so powerfully
impacting and emotional,
00:14:34.84\00:14:37.51
a wave of emotion
was so overpowering
00:14:37.54\00:14:39.37
that he ended up dying of really
00:14:39.41\00:14:41.84
what was a heart attack,
00:14:41.88\00:14:43.21
its called, some people
call it pericardial effusion,
00:14:43.24\00:14:45.45
the heart becomes
endemic and the fluid bears down
00:14:45.48\00:14:49.02
and burst the heart
and that would explain
00:14:49.05\00:14:50.69
why there was blood and
water coming out of his side
00:14:50.72\00:14:53.79
when his side was pierced.
00:14:53.82\00:14:55.16
You know, he died of
the physical ramifications
00:14:55.19\00:14:58.09
of mental anguish, that's right
00:14:58.13\00:14:59.73
and so he has borne our grieves
00:14:59.76\00:15:02.46
and carried our sorrows
00:15:02.50\00:15:03.83
and we can point people
00:15:03.87\00:15:05.20
with organic
brain disease to Jesus
00:15:05.23\00:15:07.44
and say look he
knows how you feel,
00:15:07.47\00:15:10.04
you know, and that can
really help them come...
00:15:10.07\00:15:12.37
I find it's more effective,
like you can argue apologetics
00:15:12.41\00:15:17.51
with people that are struggling
with why God questions,
00:15:17.55\00:15:20.28
but it's more
effective to just point them
00:15:20.32\00:15:23.39
to a savior who
knows how they feel...
00:15:23.42\00:15:25.25
Amen.
00:15:25.29\00:15:26.62
To where they can feel
empathically bound to Him
00:15:26.65\00:15:29.29
and that seems
to reduce the need
00:15:29.32\00:15:31.43
for an answer to the question
00:15:31.46\00:15:32.96
because they don't
feel alone anymore,
00:15:32.99\00:15:34.60
because they know God
00:15:34.63\00:15:35.96
may have allowed this to happen.
00:15:36.00\00:15:37.33
He may have
allowed you to suffer
00:15:37.37\00:15:38.70
but he is not
asking you to suffer alone,
00:15:38.73\00:15:40.07
he's right beside you.
00:15:40.10\00:15:41.44
Amen. So...
00:15:41.47\00:15:42.80
Notice that Jesus
on the cross was alone
00:15:42.84\00:15:44.21
when he said my God,
why have you forsaken me,
00:15:44.24\00:15:47.14
and that alone feeling
that he is going through,
00:15:47.18\00:15:50.08
we can bridge that to what
the client is going through
00:15:50.11\00:15:52.38
because I had a client
00:15:52.41\00:15:53.75
who clearly had
schizophrenia coming to me
00:15:53.78\00:15:55.85
and she didn't have anyone else
00:15:55.88\00:15:57.49
to talk to her
about this literally.
00:15:57.52\00:15:59.22
So just me sitting there
listening to her journey,
00:15:59.25\00:16:01.86
helped here to see
that she was not alone.
00:16:01.89\00:16:04.56
So I just needed to,
00:16:04.59\00:16:06.09
just be with her
during this whole process
00:16:06.13\00:16:08.26
until and this is
an important point,
00:16:08.30\00:16:10.23
my supervisor pointed
out, has she been to a doctor?
00:16:10.27\00:16:14.44
And when I brought
that to the session,
00:16:14.47\00:16:16.87
I think it was a
third or fourth session,
00:16:16.91\00:16:18.74
unfortunately
she never came back.
00:16:18.77\00:16:20.34
Why?
00:16:20.38\00:16:21.71
Because she thought that
I didn't believe her story.
00:16:21.74\00:16:24.28
She thought that
this was all medical
00:16:24.31\00:16:26.92
and I wasn't
believing in her story.
00:16:26.95\00:16:28.58
But that's an important point
00:16:28.62\00:16:29.95
bringing the medical
doctor into the team.
00:16:29.98\00:16:31.32
Absolutely.
00:16:31.35\00:16:32.69
So you want to go ahead
00:16:32.72\00:16:34.06
and give our presenting problem.
00:16:34.09\00:16:36.19
Although a medicate client
00:16:36.22\00:16:37.63
and with a low income
43 year old Hispanic Tony
00:16:37.66\00:16:41.83
looks at the picture of success
00:16:41.86\00:16:43.30
as he strides into the
office in a designer suit.
00:16:43.33\00:16:46.10
Well groomed, facial
hair and a cloud of cologne.
00:16:46.13\00:16:48.97
He explains that he
works as an advocate
00:16:49.00\00:16:51.17
for the mentally ill,
00:16:51.21\00:16:52.54
being diagnosed bipolar himself.
00:16:52.57\00:16:54.84
Tony has just been baptized
00:16:54.88\00:16:56.71
and is a strong
believer in the Bible.
00:16:56.75\00:16:58.61
He talks
enthusiastically about his faith
00:16:58.65\00:17:01.08
but by the third
or fourth session
00:17:01.12\00:17:02.62
you notice that he
had some extreme ideas
00:17:02.65\00:17:04.95
regarding what the Bible
teaches about spiritual gifts.
00:17:04.99\00:17:08.02
By the fifth
session Tony tells you
00:17:08.06\00:17:10.13
that he believes
you are a prophet
00:17:10.16\00:17:11.96
and the angel Gabriel,
00:17:11.99\00:17:14.50
the archangel has spoken to him,
00:17:14.53\00:17:17.03
tell him that you
too are the two of you
00:17:17.07\00:17:19.80
have a special
mission to fulfill
00:17:19.83\00:17:21.70
in giving the last
message to a dying world.
00:17:21.74\00:17:24.01
What do you do?
00:17:24.04\00:17:27.04
And there is
silence in the land.
00:17:27.08\00:17:30.18
Yeah.
00:17:30.21\00:17:31.55
Well, you can
build on Tony strengths.
00:17:31.58\00:17:33.45
He believes in the Bible,
00:17:33.48\00:17:36.12
and he enthusiastically
talks about his faith.
00:17:36.15\00:17:40.69
And so we can or
what I would do is
00:17:40.72\00:17:44.46
just take a moment
00:17:44.49\00:17:46.03
and try to align the word of God
00:17:46.06\00:17:48.93
and truth with this
mission that he is trying to.
00:17:48.96\00:17:52.90
Well, he is saying
that we need to go on
00:17:52.93\00:17:55.60
and just talk a little
bit about that mission.
00:17:55.64\00:17:57.84
You know that's so good,
00:17:57.87\00:17:59.64
we had an
individual in our lives
00:17:59.67\00:18:01.61
at one point who
has since passed.
00:18:01.64\00:18:03.18
But this individual
would have psychotic breaks
00:18:03.21\00:18:06.31
very and frequently
but she would have them
00:18:06.35\00:18:08.35
and one came upon her once
00:18:08.38\00:18:10.15
and she became convinced
that my husband was Jesus
00:18:10.19\00:18:12.19
and I was Mary Magdalene.
00:18:12.22\00:18:14.02
And the way we talked
her down off that ledge was
00:18:14.06\00:18:16.32
'cause she was a believer.
00:18:16.36\00:18:17.73
We said, when Jesus comes again,
00:18:17.76\00:18:19.49
his feet won't touch the ground.
00:18:19.53\00:18:20.86
And she saw the evidence
right there in scripture
00:18:20.90\00:18:22.40
and she said, you're
right, he is not Jesus.
00:18:22.43\00:18:24.43
And that fixed the
problem, so you're so right,
00:18:24.47\00:18:26.53
you draw in the strengths
of the person they're believer,
00:18:26.57\00:18:29.40
you know, pull out the Bible,
have all Bible study with him,
00:18:29.44\00:18:31.97
so that's good.
00:18:32.01\00:18:33.38
What do you do with as
person in this condition,
00:18:33.41\00:18:36.68
how do you help them?
00:18:36.71\00:18:38.25
In this case,
probably the first thing
00:18:38.28\00:18:39.65
I would do is
what Rob suggested,
00:18:39.68\00:18:41.28
I would make sure that
00:18:41.32\00:18:42.65
there has been a medical workup
00:18:42.68\00:18:44.35
and make sure
that I can rule it out
00:18:44.39\00:18:46.29
things that maybe
of a medical condition,
00:18:46.32\00:18:48.56
and so that helps
me to sort of isolate
00:18:48.59\00:18:51.29
what the issues may be,
00:18:51.33\00:18:52.66
and then I can have
that conversation with them
00:18:52.69\00:18:54.13
once I rule out
any medical challenges
00:18:54.16\00:18:56.06
that may be the reason
00:18:56.10\00:18:57.43
or something medically induced.
00:18:57.47\00:18:58.80
How would you
introduce that to him now
00:18:58.83\00:19:00.44
and that he could offended.
00:19:00.47\00:19:02.07
He could but I
would just talk about
00:19:02.10\00:19:03.44
his overall general health.
00:19:03.47\00:19:04.81
and you've come to
me for this purpose,
00:19:04.84\00:19:06.74
and you know, I'm a physical,
00:19:06.78\00:19:08.74
I'm not a physical scientist,
00:19:08.78\00:19:10.98
I'm a psychological person
00:19:11.01\00:19:12.61
and so you come
to me for counseling
00:19:12.65\00:19:14.28
but always refer to my
medical physicians and say,
00:19:14.32\00:19:18.29
hey, can we rule
out something personal,
00:19:18.32\00:19:20.16
how is your general healthy
and talk to him about that.
00:19:20.19\00:19:22.62
And I think that he may be
00:19:22.66\00:19:24.86
probably pretty
proud of his health
00:19:24.89\00:19:26.43
and so he may
want to talk about it
00:19:26.46\00:19:27.80
but that's one thing
00:19:27.83\00:19:29.16
I want to do is
rule those things out.
00:19:29.20\00:19:30.53
But can an average
doctor's, you know,
00:19:30.57\00:19:32.83
like an average physical
identify as schizophrenia.
00:19:32.87\00:19:37.94
No, I wouldn't be
asking him to rule
00:19:37.97\00:19:39.31
to identify schizophrenia,
00:19:39.34\00:19:40.94
I want just a medical workup.
00:19:40.98\00:19:42.31
Okay.
00:19:42.34\00:19:43.68
I will handle the mental part,
00:19:43.71\00:19:45.05
I just want him to
do a physical workup,
00:19:45.08\00:19:46.58
so I can see if there
are any physical challenges
00:19:46.61\00:19:48.38
or issues that we should have.
00:19:48.42\00:19:49.75
Oh, they could be
contributing. Correct.
00:19:49.78\00:19:51.42
So I'm not asking
them to diagnose, you know,
00:19:51.45\00:19:53.05
health condition.
00:19:53.09\00:19:54.42
I just want to refer to him.
00:19:54.46\00:19:55.79
Notice that his
individual has been diagnosed
00:19:55.82\00:19:57.16
with bipolar already.
00:19:57.19\00:19:58.53
So is there
medication in the picture.
00:19:58.56\00:20:00.20
Has he taken
himself off medication,
00:20:00.23\00:20:01.86
these are all important
things we need to know.
00:20:01.90\00:20:03.23
You need to know that history.
00:20:03.26\00:20:04.60
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
00:20:04.63\00:20:06.03
How do you bring
in the supernatural,
00:20:06.07\00:20:08.00
some people say
and people start acting
00:20:08.04\00:20:09.54
irrationally like
that, it's just the devil.
00:20:09.57\00:20:12.07
And some people say it's
never the devil, you know,
00:20:12.11\00:20:14.64
it's always just this illnesses,
00:20:14.68\00:20:16.28
what do you guys
think about that,
00:20:16.31\00:20:17.81
throwing out there,
thrown you a bone...
00:20:17.85\00:20:21.02
a vegetarian.
00:20:21.05\00:20:22.38
I had a case
very similar to this
00:20:22.42\00:20:23.95
and of course,
00:20:23.99\00:20:26.76
every case is different
but what helped in that case
00:20:26.79\00:20:30.76
was including the
family in the experience
00:20:30.79\00:20:36.43
and I wasn't the
counseling the person per se,
00:20:36.46\00:20:40.70
it was at a
church I was pastoring
00:20:40.74\00:20:42.40
and the person was
coming to me at times
00:20:42.44\00:20:44.71
and I did exactly
what I said earlier,
00:20:44.74\00:20:47.14
we went through scripture
and we talked about some things
00:20:47.18\00:20:50.51
but it just kept
escalating and so I,
00:20:50.55\00:20:53.55
you know, as a
pastor I knew the family
00:20:53.58\00:20:55.02
and I just
initiated the call and said,
00:20:55.05\00:20:56.45
you know, this is going on.
00:20:56.48\00:20:58.12
Can you give me
some insight, yeah.
00:20:58.15\00:20:59.49
You told the family. Yeah.
00:20:59.52\00:21:00.86
and one of the brother said,
00:21:00.89\00:21:02.42
I will call and
then the individual said,
00:21:02.46\00:21:05.56
you know, now
that you called me,
00:21:05.59\00:21:06.93
why don't the three of
us meet with the pastor.
00:21:06.96\00:21:09.26
And so, the family
member was there in the room
00:21:09.30\00:21:12.00
and because they
knew the history,
00:21:12.03\00:21:14.57
they were able to
talk to the person directly
00:21:14.60\00:21:16.81
because they had
that relationship
00:21:16.84\00:21:18.31
and start to bring, you
know, turn things around.
00:21:18.34\00:21:20.91
So the family member
talked to the person directly.
00:21:20.94\00:21:23.04
Yes, yes.
00:21:23.08\00:21:24.41
They came to the next session
or the next meeting together
00:21:24.45\00:21:27.98
and because the individual
invited the family member,
00:21:28.02\00:21:32.29
they said, you
know, why don't you call,
00:21:32.32\00:21:33.69
why don't the two of
us go see pastor David,
00:21:33.72\00:21:36.36
and that was a
blessing, it was a blessing,
00:21:36.39\00:21:38.59
so getting the family...
00:21:38.63\00:21:39.96
Yeah, getting the
family involved somehow,
00:21:40.00\00:21:42.10
so you have that support.
00:21:42.13\00:21:43.80
It sounds like the
team approach could be
00:21:43.83\00:21:45.40
very effective to
deal with this client
00:21:45.43\00:21:47.00
and deal with
clients with psychosis
00:21:47.04\00:21:49.17
and generally talked
about the medical need,
00:21:49.20\00:21:50.97
he also talked about that Rob,
00:21:51.01\00:21:53.61
psychiatric needs
are also important
00:21:53.64\00:21:55.58
because that's usually
00:21:55.61\00:21:56.95
where the med
management comes in,
00:21:56.98\00:21:58.58
looking at the family needs
00:21:58.61\00:21:59.95
and any kind of social supports
00:21:59.98\00:22:01.32
that may be important as well,
00:22:01.35\00:22:02.68
and then ask the clinicians
00:22:02.72\00:22:04.05
so a team approach
to support the person
00:22:04.09\00:22:05.95
in their area of
need to shift them
00:22:05.99\00:22:08.19
and to help them
to get more aligned
00:22:08.22\00:22:10.16
with what
they're struggling with.
00:22:10.19\00:22:11.79
You know, I don't
want to get away from
00:22:11.83\00:22:13.16
what you brought up.
00:22:13.19\00:22:14.53
I don't think
any of us would deny
00:22:14.56\00:22:15.90
that demon possession
00:22:15.93\00:22:17.27
obviously it's in the Bible
and it still happens today.
00:22:17.30\00:22:19.13
So how do we as professionals
know the difference
00:22:19.17\00:22:21.44
if somebody is presenting
to us with certain issues
00:22:21.47\00:22:24.77
and you spoke to that
pretty nicely off camera.
00:22:24.81\00:22:27.11
Yeah, one of the
things that came to mind is
00:22:27.14\00:22:28.74
when I look at schizophrenia,
00:22:28.78\00:22:30.75
it is definitely
an organic disease
00:22:30.78\00:22:33.05
or certainly a break in reality
00:22:33.08\00:22:35.32
whereas what I read in
the Bible about possession
00:22:35.35\00:22:38.05
the whole person has changed,
00:22:38.09\00:22:39.42
even with the
different voice and actions
00:22:39.45\00:22:41.39
and behaviors that
00:22:41.42\00:22:43.76
clearly are not
from the human source,
00:22:43.79\00:22:45.86
where as schizophrenia
is not that at all,
00:22:45.89\00:22:48.03
so the person is not
going to change their voice,
00:22:48.06\00:22:50.00
they're not going
to talk differently.
00:22:50.03\00:22:51.57
Now they may attend to
external stimuli hallucinations
00:22:51.60\00:22:55.87
that are not there,
00:22:55.90\00:22:57.24
but it's not something
00:22:57.27\00:22:58.61
where you can compare
to a demon possession,
00:22:58.64\00:23:00.41
there are not
multiple personalities
00:23:00.44\00:23:02.71
inside their body
or inside their head,
00:23:02.74\00:23:04.81
and I think that's one way
to draw a line of demarcation
00:23:04.85\00:23:07.22
between schizophrenia
00:23:07.25\00:23:09.05
and what we may see
as demon possession.
00:23:09.08\00:23:10.45
We can see supernatural
changes in the person.
00:23:10.49\00:23:12.45
Absolutely. Yeah.
00:23:12.49\00:23:13.82
So we're all in that
same page that we believe that
00:23:13.86\00:23:15.66
there is such a
thing as demon possession,
00:23:15.69\00:23:17.46
supernatural activity,
00:23:17.49\00:23:18.83
we're not about to
deny that and just say,
00:23:18.86\00:23:20.20
oh, it's just illness, you know.
00:23:20.23\00:23:22.66
We wrestle not
against flesh or blood,
00:23:22.70\00:23:24.37
but against principalities
and powers, absolutely.
00:23:24.40\00:23:27.14
And I would go
little further and say,
00:23:27.17\00:23:28.77
the devil knows our weaknesses
00:23:28.80\00:23:30.87
including our brain weaknesses
00:23:30.91\00:23:32.24
and he is
standing by at all times
00:23:32.27\00:23:33.88
to capitalize on that,
00:23:33.91\00:23:35.24
but fortunately Jesus
is stronger than Satan
00:23:35.28\00:23:38.38
and he fights him
off if we trust in him,
00:23:38.41\00:23:40.68
so I'm so thankful
for that because I,
00:23:40.72\00:23:42.98
and I also believe that
what we need to do with people
00:23:43.02\00:23:46.29
that have these
kinds of illnesses is
00:23:46.32\00:23:48.86
we need to gather
around them as a church
00:23:48.89\00:23:51.46
and we need to pray for them
00:23:51.49\00:23:52.93
and strive for their
best health with them
00:23:52.96\00:23:55.00
instead of isolating from them
00:23:55.03\00:23:56.56
because they act
different sometimes and strange
00:23:56.60\00:23:58.83
and it's very easy to be
like pulling away from them,
00:23:58.87\00:24:02.04
but we need to
instead take upon ourselves
00:24:02.07\00:24:04.67
the responsibility of
making their church experience
00:24:04.71\00:24:06.61
as positive as possible.
00:24:06.64\00:24:07.98
I remember talking to a lady
00:24:08.01\00:24:09.34
that every time she
tried to go to church,
00:24:09.38\00:24:10.71
she knew she needed Jesus,
00:24:10.75\00:24:12.08
she start
hearing voices as soon as
00:24:12.11\00:24:13.45
she enter the
building and I said,
00:24:13.48\00:24:16.08
get a group of people around you
00:24:16.12\00:24:17.92
and have a prayer right
00:24:17.95\00:24:19.49
as you're at the
door of the church
00:24:19.52\00:24:20.96
to ward off the devil
00:24:20.99\00:24:22.32
because he can't attack you
00:24:22.36\00:24:24.26
when you're covered
with prayer, he can't.
00:24:24.29\00:24:26.19
The ways that to
happen that was for us
00:24:26.23\00:24:28.66
as the church
members to educate ourselves
00:24:28.70\00:24:30.67
about these illnesses.
00:24:30.70\00:24:32.27
So we're not afraid of it
00:24:32.30\00:24:33.64
and we don't reject the person
00:24:33.67\00:24:35.54
who is exhibiting those things.
00:24:35.57\00:24:36.91
Don't reject them
00:24:36.94\00:24:38.27
and don't add the
stigma of spiritual failure
00:24:38.31\00:24:40.58
to an illness that
they already are wrestling
00:24:40.61\00:24:43.08
with that they did not ask for,
00:24:43.11\00:24:44.91
that's already
putting them at disadvantage,
00:24:44.95\00:24:46.78
but don't be cruel in that way
00:24:46.82\00:24:48.68
and recognize get
it through your head
00:24:48.72\00:24:51.39
believers that
there is such a thing
00:24:51.42\00:24:53.39
as organic brain disease.
00:24:53.42\00:24:54.92
Let me say something
I think it's important
00:24:54.96\00:24:56.76
because you know,
I've pastored churches,
00:24:56.79\00:24:59.03
I agree with everything that
you're saying and I affirm it,
00:24:59.06\00:25:01.83
however something else
that needs to be consider is
00:25:01.86\00:25:05.30
as long as
everyone's gonna be safe
00:25:05.33\00:25:09.40
because I was in a situation
00:25:09.44\00:25:11.21
where the
individual was coming to church
00:25:11.24\00:25:13.88
and it no longer,
00:25:13.91\00:25:15.24
the church no longer
became a safe place to go
00:25:15.28\00:25:16.81
'cause of the outburst.
00:25:16.85\00:25:18.68
Now you still have to
love them and support them
00:25:18.71\00:25:20.32
but as the
church you have to see
00:25:20.35\00:25:21.68
how can we still
make the church safe
00:25:21.72\00:25:23.59
and still love and
take care of the individual
00:25:23.62\00:25:26.59
that needs help.
00:25:26.62\00:25:27.96
That's really a good point.
00:25:27.99\00:25:29.32
It is. Thank you.
00:25:29.36\00:25:30.69
And unfortunately,
00:25:30.73\00:25:32.06
I need to start
doing the recap here,
00:25:32.09\00:25:33.43
there's so much more
that we could talk about.
00:25:33.46\00:25:34.80
It's a very
helpful, though, Guy.
00:25:34.83\00:25:36.16
Medication,
there are such things
00:25:36.20\00:25:38.33
as brain chemicals
that are out of balance.
00:25:38.37\00:25:40.20
A medication really can help.
00:25:40.24\00:25:42.90
A break with reality is
what we're speaking about here,
00:25:42.94\00:25:45.97
which is different
from demon possession
00:25:46.01\00:25:47.51
with supernatural tendencies.
00:25:47.54\00:25:49.74
Family system is
vital to bring into picture,
00:25:49.78\00:25:52.21
a team approach.
00:25:52.25\00:25:53.65
We're talking
about the medical doctor,
00:25:53.68\00:25:55.32
the physiatrist or
the medicine, therapy,
00:25:55.35\00:25:58.15
bring the team,
bring the family in,
00:25:58.19\00:25:59.95
bring social contacts in
00:25:59.99\00:26:01.52
because when we're talking about
00:26:01.56\00:26:02.89
managing this
disorder or these disorders,
00:26:02.92\00:26:06.63
we're not talking
about complete healing,
00:26:06.66\00:26:09.00
we're talking about
managing the best way we can.
00:26:09.03\00:26:11.03
And everybody needs support
00:26:11.07\00:26:12.53
and everybody needs to
be aware of what's going on.
00:26:12.57\00:26:14.80
So education is huge
00:26:14.84\00:26:16.71
when it comes to
the support system
00:26:16.74\00:26:18.27
or comes to the church itself.
00:26:18.31\00:26:20.48
Where is God in all of these?
00:26:20.51\00:26:22.01
He's right with us. Amen.
00:26:22.04\00:26:23.38
And we need to
really go to scripture
00:26:23.41\00:26:25.08
and go to the cross.
00:26:25.11\00:26:26.45
Oh, my goodness,
00:26:26.48\00:26:27.82
Jesus was so alone on the cross.
00:26:27.85\00:26:29.48
And we could all identify
with that at times in our life,
00:26:29.52\00:26:34.79
how alone we can be, so
we have to go to the cross,
00:26:34.82\00:26:36.96
have to go to scripture.
00:26:36.99\00:26:38.33
Amen.
00:26:38.36\00:26:39.69
And when the medical
doctor comes into play,
00:26:39.73\00:26:42.16
we can rule out a
lot of medical causes
00:26:42.20\00:26:44.07
that may not be a
part of the picture
00:26:44.10\00:26:46.80
up to this
point with the client,
00:26:46.84\00:26:49.44
so, you know, the
team approach is vital
00:26:49.47\00:26:52.17
when we're
talking about psychosis.
00:26:52.21\00:26:54.34
We can't do it all, we
don't have all the answers
00:26:54.38\00:26:56.54
but we sure know the
one who does, don't we?
00:26:56.58\00:26:58.05
Amen, his name is Jesus.
00:26:58.08\00:27:00.05
So we're so thankful that
00:27:00.08\00:27:01.55
you were with
us on this program,
00:27:01.58\00:27:03.82
friends, and we hope that
00:27:03.85\00:27:05.19
you've learned something helpful
00:27:05.22\00:27:06.55
and practical that
will better equip you
00:27:06.59\00:27:09.39
to manage your own
issues and help other people
00:27:09.42\00:27:12.66
handle theirs as we struggle
through the rest of our lives
00:27:12.69\00:27:15.16
here on this
earth waiting for Jesus
00:27:15.20\00:27:16.83
to change us in the
twinkling of an eye.
00:27:16.87\00:27:19.17
I want to close with
the couple of scriptures.
00:27:19.20\00:27:21.27
May the peace of
God rule in your hearts,
00:27:21.30\00:27:24.14
keeping your minds and
hearts in Christ Jesus,
00:27:24.17\00:27:26.07
and I know I didn't
say that just right,
00:27:26.11\00:27:27.44
but it's Philippians
4:7 so you can look it up
00:27:27.48\00:27:29.84
and also God has not
given us the spirit of fear
00:27:29.88\00:27:31.95
but of power and of
love and of a sound mind,
00:27:31.98\00:27:36.02
2 Timothy 1:7.
00:27:36.05\00:27:38.95
Trusting in Jesus can mitigate
00:27:38.99\00:27:41.66
the assaults of even
organic mental illness
00:27:41.69\00:27:44.49
and help take the edge off
00:27:44.53\00:27:45.86
some of the
things we struggle with.
00:27:45.89\00:27:47.53
Jesus is standing by you
00:27:47.56\00:27:49.20
moment by moment, day after day
00:27:49.23\00:27:51.33
to empower you to do the things
00:27:51.37\00:27:52.73
you could never
do in your own flesh,
00:27:52.77\00:27:54.97
and he will also provide for you
00:27:55.00\00:27:57.31
a family and fellowship
00:27:57.34\00:27:58.84
if you trust in him.
00:27:58.87\00:28:00.21
See you next time.
00:28:00.24\00:28:01.58