Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
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I am Jennifer Jill Schwirzer,
and our program is dedicated
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to helping us all
understand mental health better,
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and also seeing the path
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to freedom, hope
and healing in Jesus.
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I'm sitting with my
team, my treatment team today,
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and I want to introduce
them one by one to you.
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First we have Paul
Coneff, Paul's from Texas
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and he is a marriage
and family therapist.
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He runs a ministry
called Straight 2 the Heart,
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it's a prayer and
discipleship ministry
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through which he
helps people cope with loss,
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suffering and addictions
by pointing them to the cross
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and leading them into
an empathic relationship
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with Jesus
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as he goes through the
closing scenes of his life,
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it's a beautiful
program, so impressed by it.
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And I'm so thankful also
to have Christina Cecotto.
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She's from Georgia,
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she is a licensed, you say it...
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Mistress in social work
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and she works at
Wildwood Lifestyle Center
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as a mental heath therapist
and she is an amazing person
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who loves to talk
about lifestyle medicine,
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we're gonna be
covering some of that today.
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So I'm excited about that.
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We've got Shelly Wiggins,
my home girl from Michigan,
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and she is a great
friend and a great counselor
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and she has a practice
called Driftwood Counseling
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through which she treats
couples, families, individuals,
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focusing on anxiety, addictions,
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abuse using both talk
therapy and equine therapy
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or therapy with horses.
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So unique and so special.
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And we have my
co-host Rob Davidson,
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he works with me in
Abide Counseling Network.
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He has a private practice
and he works with families,
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couples, individuals.
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He likes to coach
men in servant leadership
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and biblical
manhood and integrity
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and so that is so needed,
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and I'm so glad you are here.
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We've got a wonderful topic
and a very broad topic today
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and a lot to share about
it, our topic is anxiety.
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Anxiety, many
people suffer with anxiety.
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In fact, anxiety is the most
common mental health diagnosis,
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if we consider
the entire cluster.
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So let's first consider
a definition of anxiety.
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Anxiety is a feeling of
worry, nervousness, or unease,
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typically about
an imminent event
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or something with
an uncertain outcome.
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So let's also look at
anxiety disorder types,
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so that we can get an idea
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of how this is a
cluster of disorders.
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The most common types
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of anxiety
diagnosis are specific phobia,
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isn't that interesting?
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And that would be an extreme
fear of something for instance
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like spiders, or
snakes, or bridges
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and Christina likes to deal
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with that kind
of issue, don't you?
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And the second most common
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anxiety
diagnosis is social phobia,
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and social phobia is
just what we might consider
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extreme shyness or
fear of social interactions,
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it's very common diagnosis.
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What about the prevalence?
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Well, if you consider
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all of these
different diagnoses,
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the prevalence is
almost up to 20 percent
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lifetime
prevalence rate in the US
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that's really, really high.
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And women, guess what?
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Are more often
diagnosed with anxiety than men.
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Women tend to have more
delicate nervous system's
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and more often
suffer from mood disorders
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and anxiety disorders.
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What about the
causes of anxiety?
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These things seem to come
from again a mixture of nature,
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nurture, and sometimes current
triggering life situations,
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if you found that to be true,
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that sometimes
something's going on
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and someone's life is
just putting them on edge
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and it just makes the
water overflow so to speak
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if they were carrying a cup
and it was right up to the top.
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What's going on
neurologically with anxiety
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is quite interesting.
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What we have is
basically a dance
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between the parasympathetic
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and the
sympathetic nervous systems.
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The sympathetic nervous system
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is the fight or flight response,
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the arousal response
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and that brings with a number of
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different
physiological responses
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like dilated pupils
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and more blood
flow in the extremities
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and shut down
digestion and so forth.
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We call that the
fight or flight response,
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that's the
sympathetic nervous system.
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Then you have a
parasympathetic nervous system
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which is the feed,
breed and rest system
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which enables our
sympathetic response
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to calm down, so
people can relax.
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We were designed
to be most of the time
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in the
parasympathetic state, resting.
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And then once in a
while, sort of ramped up
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to the sympathetic
nervous system, arousal state,
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so that we could deal
with the threat of some kind.
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Unfortunately some of us
get ramped up and stay there,
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and then what happens
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is the
sympathetic nervous system
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and every system in
the brain or the body
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can get overworked, can't it?
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And so if the sympathetic
nervous system is overworked,
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it will get
worn out after a time
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and then people can be left
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with the legacy of
difficulty as a result.
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But as always the
prognosis is what?
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Hope.
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The prognosis is good,
because Jesus can heal us
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and there are ways to
get pass these things.
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What are some of the treatments?
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Well, the treatment
would include lifestyle,
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we're gonna be talking
about that in a moment.
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I always teach my
anxiety clients, breathing,
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how about you guys?
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Yeah.
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Breathing is just
standard anxiety treatment.
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What happens with sympathetic
nervous system arousals,
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we start to naturally
breathe shallow and fast,
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and what we do
is we teach people
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how to then slow
their breathing down
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and breathe deep
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and that actually
tricks the limbic brain
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into believing that
there everything is okay.
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Everything's okay
now, I'm breathing deep
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and that's how that works,
it creates a feedback loop
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that convinces the mind
that everything is fine.
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Sometimes social support
can be very helpful in anxiety.
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Also sometimes
people need medication,
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but I like to try herbs
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and supplements
and lifestyle changes.
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First, we like the
least impact possible
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in treating any disorder
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we want to not
create side effects,
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we don't have to create,
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and most of the
lifestyle changes
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don't have any side effects.
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Or I would say, I
should say all of them.
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Standard treatment for anxiety
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is cognitive behavioral therapy.
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Cognitive behavioral
therapy is simply controlling
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the thought life and it
works kind of like this,
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you have live event
and then you have feelings
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that arise out of that event,
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and you would
think that there would be
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a direct line between the two
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but actually there's
something in the middle
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called cognitive processing
which is the way we think
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about that life event
which ultimately determines
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how we feel
about that life event.
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So we have the
privilege as beings
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made in the image of
God to think through things
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and reframe them if
we so choose to do so.
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Jesus himself
was a great reframer.
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He said when you're
persecuted be depressed, right?
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No, he said when
you're persecuted, rejoice
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because great is
your reward in heaven.
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You just put a new
frame on that thing
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and completely transform
the way we feel about it.
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So cognitive behavioral therapy
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is standard
treatment for anxiety
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because when people
change their thoughts,
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they change the way they feel,
but Paul likes to bring out
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that we don't
change our own thoughts,
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we receive those
new thoughts from Jesus
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and I'm much
comfortable with that as well,
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otherwise we basically
have humanism, don't we?
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So I want to talk though
about lifestyle and medicine,
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and I know you work Christina
at Wildwood Lifestyle Center.
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Tell us some of the
things that you use for anxiety
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with your
clients that come there?
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Well, first I want to explain
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that there is
two laws of the mind.
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There is the moral law
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and then there
is the natural law.
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And so the natural laws
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are simply the
lifestyle changes,
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the eight laws of heath.
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The moral law has to
do with the thoughts,
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the feelings and the behavior.
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So I'll a touch a little bit
on the natural law, of course,
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the eight laws of health
are nutrition, exercise, water,
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sunshine, temperance,
air, rest and trusting in God.
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And many times people,
sometimes people will come in
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and say, you know, I think
I have a hormonal imbalance
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and we don't, you
know, we don't do any testing
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to figure out
whether they do or not
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but simply by
correcting vitamin deficiencies,
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simply by them following
the eight laws of health,
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they can actually
up their serotonin
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and correct that
hormonal imbalance
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even if they were to have one.
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That's amazing, so
you don't have to do this
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very detailed
evaluation of the problem.
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You basically
try the remedy first
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and see if that
corrects the problem.
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So can you give us some idea
what the laws of health are?
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Oh, I had mentioned just
the eight laws of health,
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the nutrition, exercise, water,
sunshine, temperance, air,
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rest and trusting in God.
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And I want to talk about
a quote just quickly here,
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it says "Wrong habits
of eating and drinking
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leads to errors in
thought and action."
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Wow.
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So we can see that
simply from how we,
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what we take into our bodies
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that actually
affects our thought life
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and it affects our actions,
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and so this is very
critical to the Christian life.
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So give me an example
of how that would work.
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Okay.
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So we advocate
for plant based diet
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and primarily that's
because of all the hormones
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that are found in me and Jesus
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and dairy products in general,
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and we believe
that tends to cause
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difficulty
managing their motions
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due to all those toxins,
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and I'm a case example actually.
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Two years ago I became vegan
and I noticed that when I did,
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I had a lot more ability
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to tolerate stress a lot easier,
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and when that
happened I thought,
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"Man, it was never meant to be
so difficult to be a Christian.
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And, so I'm a
case example of that,
00:10:02.96\00:10:05.30
but I can tell you just after
patients go through the program
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by the second day,
00:10:08.77\00:10:10.11
so I've only been
able to see them maybe once
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to take an assessment.
00:10:11.84\00:10:13.17
Many times they are
already getting better
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and some have even almost
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had full recovery
by the second day,
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because of simply being
in that support environment
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and doing the
different diet changes,
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and being and having
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that spiritual
support in knowing
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that they're gonna get help.
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So you have therapeutic things
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coming from all
different directions.
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You have a socially
supportive environment,
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you have a change of diet,
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you have more
exercise, more water.
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There is a lot
of things happening
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and you're not always
sure exactly what's working
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but you just assume
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because these
are God's principles
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that all of it's
kind of working together
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for the good of the person.
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Right and
hydrotherapy is also very big...
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What is hydrotherapy?
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So, hydrotherapy is a
therapy done with water.
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So I don't know if
you've heard of contra showers,
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Russian steam bath,
00:11:00.09\00:11:01.42
there is a hundred
different types of...
00:11:01.46\00:11:02.79
How do you take a contra shower?
00:11:02.82\00:11:04.56
So, it looks, they
call it the car wash.
00:11:04.59\00:11:07.76
It's basically a
shower and it's got like,
00:11:07.80\00:11:11.03
I can't even remember, I
think like six showerheads
00:11:11.07\00:11:13.74
and they shoot
out in all different,
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they're all positioned
in different directions
00:11:16.50\00:11:17.91
so that they hit
different areas of the body
00:11:17.94\00:11:20.11
and they go 30 seconds cold,
00:11:20.14\00:11:23.48
then three minutes
hot and they switch off.
00:11:23.51\00:11:25.61
They do cold
first? Probably not.
00:11:25.65\00:11:27.75
They do the hot water.
00:11:27.78\00:11:29.32
You could do this at home,
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right, in your shower
and just turn around...
00:11:30.95\00:11:32.55
You can, yeah.
00:11:32.59\00:11:33.92
And what that does is
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that helps with
the blood circulation.
00:11:35.32\00:11:36.66
Of course we need good
blood supply to the brain,
00:11:36.69\00:11:38.69
to the mind, to be
able to think appropriately.
00:11:38.73\00:11:40.76
So all these...
00:11:40.80\00:11:42.13
Christine, doesn't that
increase the immune system?
00:11:42.16\00:11:43.77
Oh, yeah, certainly,
00:11:43.80\00:11:45.13
so it helps naturally
with the physical body
00:11:45.17\00:11:46.97
and anything that
helps the physical body
00:11:47.00\00:11:48.50
helps the mind as well.
00:11:48.54\00:11:49.87
So talk also
about the vegan diet
00:11:49.90\00:11:52.01
and there is all
this research now
00:11:52.04\00:11:53.44
about serotonin in the bowels,
00:11:53.48\00:11:55.34
you know and there is so
much serotonin in the bowels,
00:11:55.38\00:11:57.48
and I kind of wonder
if the higher fiber diet,
00:11:57.51\00:12:00.45
you know, just
helps the bowels produce
00:12:00.48\00:12:02.48
some more
appropriate amount of serotonin.
00:12:02.52\00:12:04.75
I'm kind of
shooting in the dark here,
00:12:04.79\00:12:06.12
but do you know
anything about that.
00:12:06.15\00:12:07.59
Well, I wish I had my
alone nutritional chart up here,
00:12:07.62\00:12:10.69
um, I don't, but it does help
00:12:10.73\00:12:12.76
with different types of vitamins
00:12:12.79\00:12:15.86
and different
things that are produced
00:12:15.90\00:12:18.57
with the nutrition,
00:12:18.60\00:12:19.93
serotonin is one of those things
00:12:19.97\00:12:21.30
that actually is
more easily produced
00:12:21.34\00:12:24.54
with certain things in the diet.
00:12:24.57\00:12:25.91
And just for clarity purposes,
00:12:25.94\00:12:27.38
serotonin is one of the
handful of neurotransmitters
00:12:27.41\00:12:30.51
that regulate
our brain functions
00:12:30.55\00:12:33.08
and serotonin is the one
that is the most involved
00:12:33.11\00:12:35.78
in keeping the mood
stable and that is implicated
00:12:35.82\00:12:39.35
in both mood
disorders and anxiety.
00:12:39.39\00:12:41.92
So you're saying that the diet
00:12:41.96\00:12:44.96
just brings about a
higher level of serotonin.
00:12:44.99\00:12:47.10
Is there any
research to that effect
00:12:47.13\00:12:48.60
where they measures serotonin...
00:12:48.63\00:12:50.40
Yes, there is a lot
of research to that.
00:12:50.43\00:12:52.07
Yeah.
00:12:52.10\00:12:53.44
Are there are any other like
do you find that walking people
00:12:53.47\00:12:55.27
outside in the bright
sunshine can be helpful?
00:12:55.30\00:12:57.67
I find that is one of...
that is very, very helpful.
00:12:57.71\00:13:01.31
In fact,
exercise I find that is,
00:13:01.34\00:13:03.61
it's one of the
things that helps the most.
00:13:03.65\00:13:07.38
In fact we had an exercise coach
00:13:07.42\00:13:08.95
that came to Wildwood,
00:13:08.98\00:13:10.32
and unfortunately
she's not there anymore,
00:13:10.35\00:13:11.89
but when she came, I
had a client who was,
00:13:11.92\00:13:15.92
who didn't want to live anymore.
00:13:15.96\00:13:17.66
And when she came,
00:13:17.69\00:13:19.03
she came actually
at the end of the week
00:13:19.06\00:13:21.20
and it was over the weekend
and I came back on Monday
00:13:21.23\00:13:23.37
and I spoke with
the client and they...
00:13:23.40\00:13:26.33
We had our session and I said,
I had given her some homework
00:13:26.37\00:13:29.14
to be thinking
about her thoughts
00:13:29.17\00:13:31.44
and to be evaluating them,
00:13:31.47\00:13:33.68
and she said,
Christina, she was just laughing
00:13:33.71\00:13:36.41
and joking with me and
I'm like what happened.
00:13:36.44\00:13:38.45
And she told me,
00:13:38.48\00:13:39.98
"All my
thoughts were imaginary."
00:13:40.02\00:13:41.95
And I said, "How did you
come to that conclusion?"
00:13:41.98\00:13:43.72
She is like, "I think I
just needed to exercise."
00:13:43.75\00:13:46.76
So simply by that exercise coach
00:13:46.79\00:13:48.82
encouraging her to do
the right exercises for her,
00:13:48.86\00:13:54.20
she was able to
think more clearly,
00:13:54.23\00:13:55.86
so really clearing
up that frontal lobe,
00:13:55.90\00:13:57.90
it helps a lot.
00:13:57.93\00:13:59.27
I find that my counseling,
00:13:59.30\00:14:00.64
it's a lot easier to
get through the people
00:14:00.67\00:14:02.00
when they are having
their frontal lobe more clear
00:14:02.04\00:14:05.37
due to the nutrition,
the exercise and you name it.
00:14:05.41\00:14:08.38
I had a really tragic
interpersonal experience
00:14:08.41\00:14:11.05
about 10 years ago and
I was down for the count,
00:14:11.08\00:14:13.28
I was already in
the counseling field,
00:14:13.31\00:14:14.82
so I'm like the counselor
with depression, you know,
00:14:14.85\00:14:17.15
and feel like kind of
bad about that anyway.
00:14:17.19\00:14:18.89
I tried all kinds of things
00:14:18.92\00:14:20.62
and I just couldn't
seem to get past it.
00:14:20.66\00:14:23.22
I decided I would
get up in the morning
00:14:23.26\00:14:25.23
and do my
exercise, running etcetera
00:14:25.26\00:14:28.06
in the morning as
the sun was rising,
00:14:28.10\00:14:30.73
and that bright light
exposure in the morning
00:14:30.77\00:14:32.50
just revolutionized
my brain chemistry
00:14:32.53\00:14:34.17
and I could feel
my mood coming back,
00:14:34.20\00:14:35.54
that was amazing.
00:14:35.57\00:14:36.91
Right. Yeah.
00:14:36.94\00:14:38.27
Have really unique alarm clocks
now that actually start to like
00:14:38.31\00:14:43.48
the light starting in your
room so if you need more...
00:14:43.51\00:14:47.52
If you live in Alaska
or some really dark place,
00:14:47.55\00:14:50.22
I don't know if
Alaska is that way
00:14:50.25\00:14:51.59
but some area of the world...
00:14:51.62\00:14:53.42
Or Michigan for at
least eight months.
00:14:53.46\00:14:55.22
And there is light boxes too.
00:14:55.26\00:14:56.73
What's that?
00:14:56.76\00:14:58.09
There's light
boxes that Wildwood uses.
00:14:58.13\00:15:00.30
You know, anxiety really
does affect the way we sleep,
00:15:00.33\00:15:03.63
and most of my clients
00:15:03.67\00:15:05.83
would present with
the sleeping difficulties
00:15:05.87\00:15:07.87
especially those with anxiety.
00:15:07.90\00:15:09.24
Right.
00:15:09.27\00:15:10.61
So I've developed a
relaxation bullet point sheet
00:15:10.64\00:15:12.67
with just these things
that you're mentioning,
00:15:12.71\00:15:14.11
the eight laws of health
00:15:14.14\00:15:15.71
to make sure that they have this
00:15:15.74\00:15:17.08
right in front of them,
00:15:17.11\00:15:18.45
and then I moved
down to lifestyle changes,
00:15:18.48\00:15:19.81
little
adjustments here and there,
00:15:19.85\00:15:21.18
recreation
that's very important.
00:15:21.22\00:15:23.42
And then I move
on to the spiritual
00:15:23.45\00:15:24.85
which we'll get into,
00:15:24.89\00:15:26.22
but they have all
of these bullet points
00:15:26.25\00:15:27.59
in terms of how
to start to relax
00:15:27.62\00:15:29.52
especially before
bedtime which so, so important.
00:15:29.56\00:15:32.39
So having a sleep hygiene, yeah.
00:15:32.43\00:15:34.36
Sleep hygiene.. Yeah,
00:15:34.40\00:15:35.73
I heard Dr. Nedley say
get up early in the morning,
00:15:35.76\00:15:39.27
and get that light
exposure and it turns,
00:15:39.30\00:15:41.60
it raises your serotonin level
00:15:41.64\00:15:43.14
and your serotonin
turns into melatonin at night,
00:15:43.17\00:15:46.21
so it can affect both.
00:15:46.24\00:15:47.81
Well, let's go into
the spiritual realm here
00:15:47.84\00:15:49.98
and let's talk about fear
as a principle scripturally,
00:15:50.01\00:15:53.62
one of the things I've
noticed in my studies recently
00:15:53.65\00:15:56.25
is that God doesn't
have anything against fear.
00:15:56.28\00:15:58.75
He talks about fearing
God positively all the time.
00:15:58.79\00:16:02.32
It says not to be afraid,
00:16:02.36\00:16:03.69
but then he says
fear God many times.
00:16:03.73\00:16:05.29
So I did little word
study and I realize that
00:16:05.33\00:16:08.20
majority of times
it says to fear God,
00:16:08.23\00:16:09.86
it uses the word Phobos.
00:16:09.90\00:16:11.23
Now, we are in
the habit of saying,
00:16:11.27\00:16:12.60
oh, that means
reverence and it does.
00:16:12.63\00:16:14.54
But the word Phobos
means like kind of phobia.
00:16:14.57\00:16:17.24
It just means
nervous system arousal.
00:16:17.27\00:16:19.44
So I think what
God is saying is,
00:16:19.47\00:16:21.01
if you're gonna have a
fight or flight response
00:16:21.04\00:16:22.84
have it toward me.
00:16:22.88\00:16:24.21
I should be your primary fear,
00:16:24.25\00:16:26.15
because after all
I'm God and I'm Holy.
00:16:26.18\00:16:29.38
And that combination is
a great threat to a sinner.
00:16:29.42\00:16:32.15
But that will
grab your attention,
00:16:32.19\00:16:33.92
that's the purpose of
fear is to focus your attention
00:16:33.96\00:16:36.52
'cause all the
orifices of face open up,
00:16:36.56\00:16:38.73
you open up your
eyes, everything,
00:16:38.76\00:16:40.63
your nostrils flare,
00:16:40.66\00:16:42.00
so you can take
in more information.
00:16:42.03\00:16:43.43
You focus on
that supposed threat
00:16:43.47\00:16:46.27
and you examine it.
00:16:46.30\00:16:48.37
And in God's case you examine it
00:16:48.40\00:16:50.31
and realize He is love and
perfect love cast out fear.
00:16:50.34\00:16:55.84
You're tracking with me,
you know what I'm saying.
00:16:55.88\00:16:57.51
Yeah. Yeah.
00:16:57.55\00:16:58.91
And it's beautiful that He
says perfect love cast out fear.
00:16:58.95\00:17:01.52
We are not casting out to fear,
we're not talking ourselves
00:17:01.55\00:17:03.85
how to try and not be afraid,
00:17:03.89\00:17:05.22
we are focusing on love,
00:17:05.25\00:17:07.02
and that sense of
safety and comfort.
00:17:07.06\00:17:08.39
And again, if
you're talking about
00:17:08.42\00:17:09.76
anxiety, fear,
these are feelings.
00:17:09.79\00:17:11.89
There can be intense feelings,
00:17:11.93\00:17:13.26
you can kick it
up to panic attacks
00:17:13.29\00:17:14.63
or you feel like
00:17:14.66\00:17:16.00
the whole world
is closing over you,
00:17:16.03\00:17:17.37
and no one is attacking
you, no one is hurting,
00:17:17.40\00:17:18.73
but you got to
get out of the room.
00:17:18.77\00:17:20.10
So the various,
00:17:20.14\00:17:21.47
but if we can bring
those thoughts to God
00:17:21.50\00:17:22.84
and the feelings,
00:17:22.87\00:17:24.21
both the thoughts
and the feelings to God
00:17:24.24\00:17:25.57
and he starts ministering to us
00:17:25.61\00:17:26.94
and we have a lot
more security and peace.
00:17:26.98\00:17:28.64
And scripture gives us
story after story after story
00:17:28.68\00:17:33.21
of people going directly to God
00:17:33.25\00:17:34.58
with all our
thoughts and feelings.
00:17:34.62\00:17:35.95
I love that.
00:17:35.98\00:17:37.32
No matter how negative we get.
00:17:37.35\00:17:38.69
Okay, you want to get into
our presenting problem, Rob.
00:17:38.72\00:17:41.42
Oh, we're ready.
00:17:41.46\00:17:42.79
Thirty three year old Karen,
00:17:42.82\00:17:44.23
a middleclass white
women living in the suburbs
00:17:44.26\00:17:47.06
has a stable marriage
00:17:47.10\00:17:48.43
and three
elementary aged daughters.
00:17:48.46\00:17:50.83
She functions well in
all aspects except for one.
00:17:50.87\00:17:54.04
She has become
completely obsessed
00:17:54.07\00:17:55.70
with a high school friendship
00:17:55.74\00:17:57.37
that ended in what seems
to be an irrepressible rift.
00:17:57.41\00:18:00.91
She wishes she could
simply lead this rift behind,
00:18:00.94\00:18:03.98
but her ex-friend
works at the coffee shop
00:18:04.01\00:18:06.05
where her husband manages
and runs in her social circles.
00:18:06.08\00:18:10.15
Being from a small town
00:18:10.19\00:18:11.52
and countering the
ex-friend in conversation
00:18:11.55\00:18:13.66
and in person is unavoidable.
00:18:13.69\00:18:15.96
Yet, Karen feels terrorized
00:18:15.99\00:18:18.13
by the
ex-friend's criticisms of her,
00:18:18.16\00:18:20.80
and worries that she will
poison others views of her.
00:18:20.83\00:18:23.97
Karen feels
overwhelmed with anxiety
00:18:24.00\00:18:26.53
and is at times unable
to sleep or function well.
00:18:26.57\00:18:29.70
You know, what
comes to me from this
00:18:29.74\00:18:31.67
is that we are created in
the image of relational God,
00:18:31.71\00:18:34.44
and relationships are
like a life and death issue.
00:18:34.48\00:18:37.18
And when a very close
relationship develops a rift,
00:18:37.21\00:18:40.18
it can be life shattering.
00:18:40.22\00:18:42.28
You know, it can be a really...
00:18:42.32\00:18:43.65
Someone might say,
oh, what's this big deal,
00:18:43.69\00:18:45.15
you had up issue with the friend
00:18:45.19\00:18:46.55
and you're not
friends anymore, get past it,
00:18:46.59\00:18:48.79
but I don't say that to people
00:18:48.82\00:18:50.29
because I know how
important relationships are.
00:18:50.33\00:18:52.79
So what would you guys do
to help this poor individual?
00:18:52.83\00:18:57.10
I guess, I would
ask a few more questions
00:18:57.13\00:18:59.30
and try and draw out
the sources and triggers.
00:18:59.33\00:19:02.70
You know the specific
sources and triggers for her.
00:19:02.74\00:19:05.61
What was she saying
to herself, kind of?
00:19:05.64\00:19:07.41
Right, and for her
to become aware of them
00:19:07.44\00:19:10.05
when they're happening
00:19:10.08\00:19:11.41
and then give her
some specific things
00:19:11.45\00:19:13.98
to try in the moment.
00:19:14.02\00:19:16.22
The other thing,
00:19:16.25\00:19:17.59
I would just wanna
kind of go back to exercise,
00:19:17.62\00:19:19.72
Christina, as
you were bringing up
00:19:19.75\00:19:21.79
the whole concept
of how exercise can,
00:19:21.82\00:19:24.83
like help dissipate anxiety,
00:19:24.86\00:19:27.60
even the stuff
that's in storage.
00:19:27.63\00:19:29.80
So I mean, I
would highly recommend
00:19:29.83\00:19:31.87
that she get an
exercise program going
00:19:31.90\00:19:35.47
because then that
extra built up anxiety...
00:19:35.50\00:19:39.77
That calling means literally,
00:19:39.81\00:19:41.31
I mean the body you can own,
00:19:41.34\00:19:43.04
the best way to release
stress hormones is exercise.
00:19:43.08\00:19:47.18
Yeah.
00:19:47.22\00:19:48.55
So if she is doing more exercise
00:19:48.58\00:19:49.98
prior to these encounters,
00:19:50.02\00:19:52.22
it sort of like taking
the trash out once a day
00:19:52.25\00:19:55.09
instead of letting it over flow.
00:19:55.12\00:19:57.03
I love that, that's
really, really great.
00:19:57.06\00:19:58.83
That's real practical too.
00:19:58.86\00:20:00.66
What would you say to her, Paul,
00:20:00.70\00:20:02.03
about the
spiritual aspect of this?
00:20:02.06\00:20:03.70
Well, you know,
00:20:03.73\00:20:05.07
she seems to be
consumed by this.
00:20:05.10\00:20:06.80
I mean, it's
making her world anxiety
00:20:06.84\00:20:09.24
and fear makes her
world very, very small.
00:20:09.27\00:20:11.04
Also you can think
about is her, her ex-friend,
00:20:11.07\00:20:14.01
and how this is gonna
impact her reputation.
00:20:14.04\00:20:15.71
So I would wanna look at like
00:20:15.74\00:20:17.08
Shelly said, what
are those triggers,
00:20:17.11\00:20:18.45
what are those negative thoughts
00:20:18.48\00:20:19.81
she has about herself,
worrying about her reputation
00:20:19.85\00:20:22.88
'cause that seems
to be the core issue.
00:20:22.92\00:20:24.25
The core that she is
worried about her reputation.
00:20:24.29\00:20:25.69
And those thoughts create
all these negative feelings,
00:20:25.72\00:20:27.79
it's like a runaway train,
00:20:27.82\00:20:29.52
and so then I want to say,
00:20:29.56\00:20:30.89
you know, was Jesus ever tempted
00:20:30.93\00:20:32.29
in the areas
worrying about his reputation
00:20:32.33\00:20:34.93
with people turning against him
00:20:34.96\00:20:36.97
because her story is this small,
00:20:37.00\00:20:38.47
that's consuming her.
00:20:38.50\00:20:40.30
We're not knocking her
00:20:40.34\00:20:42.00
but the more she
worries about it,
00:20:42.04\00:20:43.81
the smaller her world gets.
00:20:43.84\00:20:45.47
Bringing in Jesus
to her can expand it,
00:20:45.51\00:20:47.38
not only that
Jesus gonna understand,
00:20:47.41\00:20:49.41
but now she can began to start
looking at a bigger perspective
00:20:49.44\00:20:51.85
and then in those
moments when she is triggered,
00:20:51.88\00:20:54.15
she can begin praying to God,
00:20:54.18\00:20:56.32
thanking God that Jesus
has been there before her.
00:20:56.35\00:20:58.42
If she's
struggling with exercise,
00:20:58.45\00:20:59.99
she can pray about
00:21:00.02\00:21:01.36
God giving her
an exercise partner
00:21:01.39\00:21:03.19
or you know, what's
gonna be the best environment
00:21:03.22\00:21:04.89
for her to have that exercise,
00:21:04.93\00:21:06.26
to navigate those
lifestyle changes.
00:21:06.29\00:21:07.80
So she's...
00:21:07.83\00:21:09.16
we're bringing
God into every aspect
00:21:09.20\00:21:10.67
of her thought
process and decision making.
00:21:10.70\00:21:12.43
Amen.
00:21:12.47\00:21:13.80
One of the things that happens
00:21:13.84\00:21:15.17
when a very close
relationship develops a rift
00:21:15.20\00:21:17.41
or becomes estranged
is you start to doubt,
00:21:17.44\00:21:20.44
and I can speak
from experience on this.
00:21:20.48\00:21:22.58
You doubt your ability
00:21:22.61\00:21:24.38
to have
relationships in the future.
00:21:24.41\00:21:26.82
You think there are some kind
of fatal flaw in my character.
00:21:26.85\00:21:29.45
Whenever I get close,
that's gonna happen again,
00:21:29.48\00:21:32.55
and the same thing
is gonna happen over,
00:21:32.59\00:21:34.36
and part of moving on for
me in my situation was saying,
00:21:34.39\00:21:38.29
you know, it's true,
00:21:38.33\00:21:39.66
I have flaws in my
character but so does everyone.
00:21:39.69\00:21:42.00
And I can learn from the past,
and I can say, you know what,
00:21:42.03\00:21:45.13
I did do some things
wrong and I'm gonna own that
00:21:45.17\00:21:47.50
but I'm not gonna
own what isn't me,
00:21:47.54\00:21:48.90
I'm gonna make the
best determination possible
00:21:48.94\00:21:50.47
and then I'm gonna
move into the future
00:21:50.51\00:21:51.84
and I'm gonna try
to do better next time.
00:21:51.87\00:21:53.64
And I think that
would be a good message
00:21:53.68\00:21:55.58
to give to her is like,
don't think that you have
00:21:55.61\00:21:58.08
some kind of fatal
flaw that nobody else has.
00:21:58.11\00:22:01.82
It's part of the
David and Solomon
00:22:01.85\00:22:03.49
is very angry
people lying about him.
00:22:03.52\00:22:05.62
He says somebody he
loves, somebody close to him,
00:22:05.65\00:22:07.22
and so in first part of
the prayer he's very angry,
00:22:07.26\00:22:09.39
very bitter.
00:22:09.42\00:22:10.99
He's basically
saying I'm in pain,
00:22:11.03\00:22:12.36
I suffer, God do
you make him suffer,
00:22:12.39\00:22:13.93
you got
lightning bolt in heaven.
00:22:13.96\00:22:15.46
He's real angry out there now.
00:22:15.50\00:22:16.83
Yeah, it's a very harsh,
00:22:16.87\00:22:18.20
it's one of the
most hostile prayers,
00:22:18.23\00:22:19.57
you wouldn't want to,
00:22:19.60\00:22:20.94
musicians
wouldn't want to sing it
00:22:20.97\00:22:22.30
as a pray song on Sabbath.
00:22:22.34\00:22:23.94
But halfway
through so they get stuck,
00:22:23.97\00:22:25.77
he says Lord, you deal with
me because you are merciful.
00:22:25.81\00:22:28.38
So he starts venting
which is where we do it.
00:22:28.41\00:22:30.15
You know, I'm hurt
00:22:30.18\00:22:31.51
and here is
what I feel about it,
00:22:31.55\00:22:32.88
but then he
switches over and he says,
00:22:32.91\00:22:34.25
you know, you deal with
me because You are merciful.
00:22:34.28\00:22:37.29
I am poor and needy,
00:22:37.32\00:22:38.65
and my heart is
wounded within me.
00:22:38.69\00:22:40.02
So he goes from next to
anger and venting to letting God
00:22:40.06\00:22:42.52
into that internal pain
00:22:42.56\00:22:44.19
and again like we've
talked about another programs,
00:22:44.23\00:22:46.56
he starts shifting and ends up
00:22:46.59\00:22:47.93
praising God for
being there with him.
00:22:47.96\00:22:49.66
I want to address that
point of venting with God.
00:22:49.70\00:22:52.23
I think that's really important
because I think a lot of times,
00:22:52.27\00:22:55.14
we develop these really
proper prayers and we just...
00:22:55.17\00:22:58.77
I call them plight,
sanitize, sterilize prayers.
00:22:58.81\00:23:01.11
They're terrible and then,
00:23:01.14\00:23:02.48
you know, you talk
to your friends like
00:23:02.51\00:23:03.88
really down homage's
just venting and whatever,
00:23:03.91\00:23:06.51
and then the
light goes on one day
00:23:06.55\00:23:07.88
and you say why don't
I talk to God this way,
00:23:07.92\00:23:09.88
because I could
say anything to him.
00:23:09.92\00:23:12.65
Do you try to get
people to really vent with God,
00:23:12.69\00:23:14.89
or do they get to that point.
00:23:14.92\00:23:16.26
You know, when
they are struggling,
00:23:16.29\00:23:17.63
I'll open up the
Bible like someone and I,
00:23:17.66\00:23:18.99
and I'll talk
about this and they go,
00:23:19.03\00:23:20.36
well, that's
angry, that's terrible,
00:23:20.40\00:23:21.73
it shouldn't be there.
00:23:21.76\00:23:23.10
Well, it was written under
the inspiration of Holy Spirit.
00:23:23.13\00:23:24.47
So we're not
saying his words are good,
00:23:24.50\00:23:25.83
his anger, desire
for revenge is good.
00:23:25.87\00:23:27.50
What we are saying is
00:23:27.54\00:23:28.87
what's good is he is
being honest with God.
00:23:28.90\00:23:30.27
And so I've had people
tell me, this is the first time,
00:23:30.31\00:23:32.34
I've ever been given permission
to be honest with God.
00:23:32.37\00:23:35.44
Now they can
share heart to heart.
00:23:35.48\00:23:38.18
Not a nice church
prayer, sterilize prayer
00:23:38.21\00:23:40.62
where they're
telling God what he thinks,
00:23:40.65\00:23:42.85
what they think
God wants to hear.
00:23:42.88\00:23:45.45
Now prayer becomes performance
00:23:45.49\00:23:46.89
where I'm trying to tell God
what I think he wants to hear
00:23:46.92\00:23:49.56
instead of what's
really in my heart,
00:23:49.59\00:23:50.93
and that's a
big burden to carry.
00:23:50.96\00:23:52.39
So I love it when
people looking at scripture
00:23:52.43\00:23:54.50
like David and others.
00:23:54.53\00:23:55.86
Elijah is depressed
and says take my life.
00:23:55.90\00:23:58.03
I love it when scripture
to get people permission
00:23:58.07\00:24:00.67
to have a relationship with God
00:24:00.70\00:24:02.04
and not only could handle
these thoughts and feelings.
00:24:02.07\00:24:05.44
But he wants to be
interacting with him,
00:24:05.47\00:24:07.18
he wants him
talking to everybody.
00:24:07.21\00:24:08.54
And guess what,
00:24:08.58\00:24:09.91
he knows anyway so you
might as well tell him,
00:24:09.94\00:24:11.41
you know, it's
not like you can hide
00:24:11.45\00:24:12.78
anything from God.
00:24:12.81\00:24:14.15
So venting is
not revealing to him,
00:24:14.18\00:24:16.12
something he
doesn't already know.
00:24:16.15\00:24:17.52
And in this particular psalm,
00:24:17.55\00:24:19.42
he starts off with
a negative feelings
00:24:19.45\00:24:20.79
'cause that's where he is.
00:24:20.82\00:24:22.19
But then he says deal with me.
00:24:22.22\00:24:23.56
Now, he is ready
to look at his part
00:24:23.59\00:24:25.43
and he's asking God,
what's my part in this pattern.
00:24:25.46\00:24:28.60
So there is a part
for his personal growth,
00:24:28.63\00:24:30.57
and then he ends
up back praising God.
00:24:30.60\00:24:32.40
I just feel a sense of relief
00:24:32.43\00:24:33.77
just as we're
talking about being honest.
00:24:33.80\00:24:35.40
Don't you guys just
feel like the sense of...
00:24:35.44\00:24:38.24
a God I can be honest with, wow!
00:24:38.27\00:24:40.44
And I think teaching
clients how to forgive,
00:24:40.48\00:24:44.05
so that they
can love is crucial.
00:24:44.08\00:24:46.55
And it goes right in
with the spiritual peace.
00:24:46.58\00:24:49.52
You know, the
question here would be
00:24:49.55\00:24:51.25
why is this person an ex-friend?
00:24:51.29\00:24:54.02
What happened?
00:24:54.06\00:24:55.46
You know, does
she need to let go
00:24:55.49\00:24:57.33
of something that
she did to this person
00:24:57.36\00:24:59.36
or does she need to forgive.
00:24:59.39\00:25:01.70
Lot of times
people misunderstand,
00:25:01.73\00:25:03.26
they think that
forgiveness means reconciliation
00:25:03.30\00:25:05.63
that they're
gonna be friends again.
00:25:05.67\00:25:07.54
But there is
freedom in the forgiveness
00:25:07.57\00:25:09.20
and then probably
alleviate a lot of the anxiety.
00:25:09.24\00:25:11.87
As I understand,
forgiveness can happen
00:25:11.91\00:25:13.71
apart from any
kind of interaction
00:25:13.74\00:25:15.24
with the other
person, if it needs to happen.
00:25:15.28\00:25:16.95
It's ideal if there can be
an actual meaningful bestowal
00:25:16.98\00:25:20.98
of that
forgiveness and repentance,
00:25:21.02\00:25:22.92
but it's not always possible
you can still forgive a person,
00:25:22.95\00:25:25.65
Jesus did it.
00:25:25.69\00:25:27.02
Write the letter
but don't send it.
00:25:27.06\00:25:28.76
And I think those are changing
the perspective, as well.
00:25:28.79\00:25:33.50
I wanna just read a
verse here that says,
00:25:33.53\00:25:35.86
Thou has caused men
to write over our heads.
00:25:35.90\00:25:39.47
We went through
fire and through water,
00:25:39.50\00:25:41.17
but that brought us out,
us out into a wealthy place.
00:25:41.20\00:25:44.11
So knowing that it's
going to end up for our good.
00:25:44.14\00:25:47.38
It's gonna bring
us to a wealthy place,
00:25:47.41\00:25:49.91
that helps to
put the perspective,
00:25:49.94\00:25:51.28
I mean the child in perspective
00:25:51.31\00:25:53.01
and that helps us
to bear that child.
00:25:53.05\00:25:54.38
Powerful.
00:25:54.42\00:25:55.75
And that's why the
prayer is important
00:25:55.78\00:25:57.12
because it's
connecting us with God
00:25:57.15\00:25:59.02
and is letting God in.
00:25:59.05\00:26:00.39
He's expanding our story.
00:26:00.42\00:26:03.19
If God can give us
that bigger perspective.
00:26:03.22\00:26:05.66
And I'll praise and say
God what's your next step
00:26:05.69\00:26:07.20
in healing
journey for them and ago.
00:26:07.23\00:26:09.26
Oh, I need to forgive.
00:26:09.30\00:26:10.63
In fact, now we know
it's time God has told them,
00:26:10.67\00:26:12.57
okay, what are the steps God?
00:26:12.60\00:26:14.00
What needs to
happen for this person
00:26:14.04\00:26:15.87
to forgive and move on?
00:26:15.90\00:26:17.51
We have just barely touched
the iceberg on this subject.
00:26:17.54\00:26:20.88
But we've covered a
lot of wonderful things.
00:26:20.91\00:26:22.88
In very shortly,
let me just recap
00:26:22.91\00:26:25.05
a couple of the
main points here.
00:26:25.08\00:26:27.02
You mentioned a couple of
laws that are so important
00:26:27.05\00:26:29.12
that there is the moral
and there is the natural.
00:26:29.15\00:26:31.49
And what we
take into our bodies,
00:26:31.52\00:26:33.25
it really
affects our thought life.
00:26:33.29\00:26:35.32
And we mentioned
these wonderful therapies,
00:26:35.36\00:26:36.89
hydrotherapy.
00:26:36.93\00:26:38.26
We mentioned the
eight laws that we...
00:26:38.29\00:26:40.40
natural laws that we
need to pay attention to it.
00:26:40.43\00:26:42.86
Exercise is huge.
00:26:42.90\00:26:44.27
Fearing God, we talked about
00:26:44.30\00:26:45.63
how important that
is in a healthy way.
00:26:45.67\00:26:48.44
And then there are
the triggers of anxiety.
00:26:48.47\00:26:50.54
We have to know what our clients
00:26:50.57\00:26:52.01
are being triggered by
00:26:52.04\00:26:53.38
so that we can
address these things.
00:26:53.41\00:26:55.14
And then we...
00:26:55.18\00:26:56.51
cognitive
behavioral therapy is just that
00:26:56.54\00:26:59.18
but when we bring
Jesus into the picture,
00:26:59.21\00:27:01.62
it is Christ centered
cognitive behavioral therapy.
00:27:01.65\00:27:05.25
Venting with God, my
goodness I had a client who...
00:27:05.29\00:27:08.99
I gave her
permission to do that,
00:27:09.02\00:27:11.06
and she came back in
the next session and said
00:27:11.09\00:27:13.06
thank you for that permission,
00:27:13.09\00:27:14.43
I feel better now and I
know God was okay with that.
00:27:14.46\00:27:17.17
That's awesome.
00:27:17.20\00:27:19.17
Well, that Lord
tells us in Psalm 34:4
00:27:19.20\00:27:22.70
we hear David, I
think it is saying,
00:27:22.74\00:27:24.61
I sought the Lord,
and He answered me,
00:27:24.64\00:27:27.48
and delivered me
from all my fears.
00:27:27.51\00:27:30.35
God is powerful enough
and he's compassionate enough
00:27:30.38\00:27:33.78
to deliver us
from all of our fears,
00:27:33.82\00:27:35.82
our anxiety disorders included.
00:27:35.85\00:27:38.45
If you're struggling
with an anxiety disorder
00:27:38.49\00:27:40.76
or someone you know
00:27:40.79\00:27:42.26
is really
struggling with anxiety,
00:27:42.29\00:27:43.63
there is help for you,
hope and help for you in Jesus
00:27:43.66\00:27:46.53
and also seek out a professional
00:27:46.56\00:27:48.40
or read a really
good book on the topic.
00:27:48.43\00:27:51.73
There is a hope and
there is a future for you.
00:27:51.77\00:27:54.07
Thank you for
joining us on our program.
00:27:54.10\00:27:57.04
We'll see you next time
on a Multitude of Counselors.
00:27:57.07\00:27:59.74