Welcome to A
Multitude of Counselors.
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We are so thankful you
came to our program today.
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This is a program
designed to help us
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better understand mental health,
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how we can
experience healing off
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from a biblical standpoint.
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I've got a treatment
team with me here today,
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so thankful to
have each one of you.
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First, we have
Paul Coneff from Texas.
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Paul is a marriage
and family therapist
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and he runs a ministry
called Straight to the Heart,
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a prayer and
discipleship ministry
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called Straight to the Heart.
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And through that ministry,
he helps people through loss,
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addiction, trauma,
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using prayers that
focus on the cross of Jesus.
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It's an amazing unique program.
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Very, very powerful.
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So glad to have you here, Paul.
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Also glad to
have David Guerrero.
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David is from Wisconsin
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and David wears many hats.
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He is a pastor,
he is a chaplain,
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he is a life coach
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and he is a
biblically certified counselor.
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He also runs a ministry,
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it's exhausting
just talking about it,
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called Rekindle the Flame,
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and under that
ministry, he conducts seminars
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and does his counseling as well.
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So glad to have you
here at the program,
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David, and we're
welcoming also Nivischi Edwards,
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Nivischi is from Tennessee.
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Nivischi runs a
virtual private practice.
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Dr. Nivischi runs a
virtual private practice
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and she also teaches at
Southern Adventist University.
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She is an inspiring
author, working on a book,
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and she likes
to work with people
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on developing
healthy relationships
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including good
relationship with themselves,
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'cause after all,
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we have a
relationship with ourselves.
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So, glad to have you
here at the program, Nivischi.
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This is my co-host Rob
Davison, he's from the DC area.
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Rob, conducts a private practice
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and he works with families,
couples and individuals
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and he likes to
focus... one of the things,
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that I'm really
happy about is that,
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he likes to focus on
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helping men
develop servant leadership
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and biblical
manhood, and integrity,
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and there is a big
need for that today
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for men mentoring men.
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So, I'm really
excited about that.
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If you are interested
in more information about
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any of these individuals,
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you can go to our website
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which is
amultitudeofcounselors.tv,
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and you will find
their contact information.
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So welcome to
the program, folks,
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and I'm so glad
that you're here.
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Our topic today is Trauma.
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We're gonna be
talking about trauma.
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The first thing we want to do
is get a definition up for you,
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so that you can understand,
what are we talking about,
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when we talk about trauma.
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"A deeply distressing
or disturbing experience."
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Now,
posttraumatic stress disorder,
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sometimes called
syndrome is a response
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to a traumatic event.
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And from what I understand
of the traumatic event
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is something
that's life threatening,
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but can it go beyond that,
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because I know you've
worked with the militarians,
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so you've worked with
lot of, what we called PTSDs,
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isn't that right, Nivischi.
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Absolutely.
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So can the trauma be caused by
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not just a life
threatening situation,
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but also just a deeply,
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emotionally disturbing situation
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that isn't
necessarily life threatening,
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'cause we're trying...
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You're absolutely correct.
Absolutely correct, Jennifer.
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Okay, so that's
posttraumatic stress disorder
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and so let me give
me some of the markers
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of what we call PTSD.
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There are three basic
signs where we see them.
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We know a person is
suffering with PTSD,
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and they are nightmares,
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the person revisiting that
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traumatic
experience in their sleep,
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and then flashbacks,
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revisiting that
traumatic experience
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during the day
when they are awake.
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And then extreme triggerability,
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anytime the person
is exposed to things
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that remind them of
that traumatic event,
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they are brought...
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they're back there,
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they're
reliving that experience.
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So PTSD is very interesting,
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Normal memory
processing involves,
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eventually the charge is
taken out of that memory,
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the emotional charge
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so that we can
remember it cognitively
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without re-experiencing it.
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You know, you guys have
all had disturbing experiences,
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and you can remember it
sometimes down to the detail,
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but you don't
necessarily re-experience it
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when you're
relating it to someone.
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But what happens
with PTSD is that
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processing of that
memory goes arise somehow,
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and the person
keeps reliving it,
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and it is thought
that is the mind's attempt
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to get it thoroughly processed.
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So that's a definition,
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what about the
prevalence of PTSD?
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Very high prevalence rate.
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In the US about 7.8
percent lifetime prevalence,
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that means that
7.8 percent of people
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will in their
lifetime experience
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PTSD on some levels.
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And women are roughly
double the rate of men.
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What about the cause?
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Of course a traumatic event,
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but if we want to look at it
from a neurological standpoint,
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we have a system in our
brain called the limbic system,
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it is fully the
emotional part of the brain.
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And when we experience a trauma,
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most things are processed
through the cerebral cortex,
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the thinking part of the brain.
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But a trauma will go directly
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to the emotional
part of the brain
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and sometimes, really, literally
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overload that part of the brain
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such that a
person's limbic system
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gets affected by it,
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and they can end up in a
state of constant limbic arousal
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or what we might
call survival mode, right?
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So that's the
cause of prognosis,
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very treatable.
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I love to work with
people through PTSD.
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The three basic treatments
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that I know of are talk therapy,
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sometimes just
relating their story
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to another person is enough.
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The human mind has
this tremendous drive
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to archive history,
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that's why we have all
this history books and stuff.
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We want to hang
on to our history,
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sometimes just
sharing it with another person
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enables us to let go of it,
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because we know,
where we can find it.
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The second
treatment is deep relaxation
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and sometimes prayer
in the context of that
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and reviewing the
memories in that context.
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And I think you probably do
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something like
that with your method
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that you use, don't you?
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Where you pray with people
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and then you revisit the trauma
in the context of praying.
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Yeah.
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We'll let you know,
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what are those negative thoughts
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that get in those
neurological pathways
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of our brain that created.
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'Cause you hear a lot of noise
and what does your brain do,
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you are not aware of
it, but you are thinking,
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hey I'm back there in
Afghanistan, you know,
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could be a car back firing
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but it's not a 4th
of July firecracker.
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It's life and death. Yeah.
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So, as we take
that into Jesus' story
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where he was
traumatized and we pray,
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what we find is
that they get healing
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they can like you said,
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they can think about the event,
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but that charge is not there.
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Has been taken out.
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The other thing
that's fascinating is
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something called EMDR,
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Eye Movement Desensitization
and Reprocessing.
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This was discovered
by Francine Shapiro,
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she is a woman.
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She is walking through a park,
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thinking about
a traumatic event,
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moving her eyes back and
forth across the field of vision
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and realize that
because her eyes were moving,
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it didn't bother her
to think about it as much.
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Then they realize that what
was happening was her brain was,
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what they call bilateralzing.
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It was activating both
hemispheres of the brain,
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and they've come
to the conclusion that
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when the brain is activated
on both sides like that,
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it's better
capable of processing.
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So, they developed
this system call EMDR
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where they actually use probes
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or the therapist will move
their finger back and forth.
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It looks like
hypnosis, but it's not hypnosis
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because it's not mind control,
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that's the problem with
hypnosis is mind control.
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But it's
actually very effective,
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you know what I do,
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so I just take
people for walks and I say,
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let's look at the
beauties of nature,
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let's oxygenate our
brain with the fresh air
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and let's talk
through this difficult patch
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in your life,
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and a lot of
times that does a trick.
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So what else do
you guys use too...
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I know, you probably
have a robust experience
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in treating
trauma, all of you do,
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and that's why I wanted
you on the show, so talk to me.
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Yeah.
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You know, there's
two things that I think
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that's very important here.
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And, you know,
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the first and it's
like you were saying,
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is to help the person
find that sacred space.
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And what I mean by that
sacred space is that place
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where they can come aside,
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and in a sense
we live the event,
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and then seek the
support that they need.
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It's interesting
that you talk about trauma
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in the sense that we all
experience something like it.
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In 2005, you
know, I lost my mother
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and that was kind
of traumatic for me,
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and for me what helped
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more than
anything was not so much
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people coming up to
me and saying, I'm sorry,
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but people giving me that space.
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So that I could spend sometime
alone thinking about the loss
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and then in my own time
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being able to
reach out to some people
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that I thought could
support me through my loss
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and just listen to me.
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And so that I can
work through that grief
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and a post
traumatic stress syndrome,
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excuse me, is really,
it's complicated grief.
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I love that,
that is so powerful.
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So you said you appreciated them
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leaving you and letting you
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kind of work it out on your own,
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and then when you were ready
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approaching certain
people that could help you in,
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that you could
talk through with,
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that's beautiful.
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That's really beautiful,
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what else have you guys
used, you know what methods?
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We all experienced trauma,
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and I think
sometimes we don't realize
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even when we were going
through a traumatic experience,
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that it is trauma,
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that we are experiencing trauma
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until sometimes after
the event has occurred.
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And what I do with
clients often is sit with them
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in their story,
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allowing
somebody to tell the story
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of the traumatic
experience they had.
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Because often we find that
they have not shared the pain,
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the hurt,
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the intensity of
the experience they had,
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and that's
invaluable to allow someone
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to share about their experience.
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Usually relieves
the traumatic event.
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Do you find that sometimes
people have this tendency to,
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you know, to
stuff it and ignore it,
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instead of face it?
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Especially when
the trauma occurred
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in dysfunctional system
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that didn't allow
them to have pain.
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So in order, if the
trauma was perpetrated
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by people in that system,
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for instance,
sexual abuse as children,
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it's a hush-hush situation,
you can't say anything.
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So that child never
got to process that trauma
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and a lot of times they
have that sense of taboo.
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And then, who wants to do that?
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After have gone through trauma,
who wants to talk about it?
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I want to pretend
that it didn't happened,
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because it's
easier, it's too painful,
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it's too triggering.
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So what I will
do is sit with it,
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sit on it and
pretend it didn't happen.
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And when we do not
talk about the trauma,
00:11:04.03\00:11:06.29
what happens is,
00:11:06.33\00:11:07.86
there is something
that stays inside of us
00:11:07.90\00:11:11.40
and the actual cells of our body
00:11:11.43\00:11:13.17
feel the trauma as well.
00:11:13.20\00:11:15.80
And so, if we are
not able to release
00:11:15.84\00:11:17.61
what has happened to us,
00:11:17.64\00:11:19.31
it stays in us in
the form of stress,
00:11:19.34\00:11:21.81
aches and pains,
ulcers, headaches.
00:11:21.84\00:11:24.38
I had one client come to
me and she said, she thought,
00:11:24.41\00:11:26.61
she was having a heart attack,
00:11:26.65\00:11:28.42
and what was actually happening,
00:11:28.45\00:11:29.78
she said her arms
were numb and I said well,
00:11:29.82\00:11:33.09
have you been to the doctor?
00:11:33.12\00:11:34.46
And she said, no.
00:11:34.49\00:11:35.82
And I said, well, make
sure after this session
00:11:35.86\00:11:37.26
that you go to the doctor
and get checked out thoroughly.
00:11:37.29\00:11:40.23
She came back a
week later said that...
00:11:40.26\00:11:42.33
everything was fine with her,
00:11:42.36\00:11:44.03
but the doctor
said this is stress
00:11:44.07\00:11:46.74
and what did happen to her was,
00:11:46.77\00:11:48.20
there was emotional
trauma happening on the job.
00:11:48.24\00:11:51.07
And it was
manifesting itself in her body
00:11:51.11\00:11:53.38
and she didn't
know what was going on.
00:11:53.41\00:11:54.94
And I just had to sit
with her and hear her story,
00:11:54.98\00:11:57.08
because she had not
gotten it out at all.
00:11:57.11\00:11:59.91
Body memory,
00:11:59.95\00:12:01.28
you talked about
what she was experiencing.
00:12:01.32\00:12:03.02
We may pretend that we
haven't experienced trauma.
00:12:03.05\00:12:05.49
We may stuff it, we may deny it,
00:12:05.52\00:12:07.42
but our body doesn't lie.
00:12:07.46\00:12:08.79
That's right.
00:12:08.82\00:12:10.16
Our body always
reveals what's really going on
00:12:10.19\00:12:12.16
and that's a
great example of that.
00:12:12.19\00:12:13.53
And that stress,
00:12:13.56\00:12:14.90
it's kind of like trying to hold
00:12:14.93\00:12:16.26
a beach ball under water,
00:12:16.30\00:12:17.63
you can do it
for a little while.
00:12:17.67\00:12:19.00
That's true.
00:12:19.03\00:12:20.37
But it wants to come up,
00:12:20.40\00:12:21.74
and so that stress in our body
00:12:21.77\00:12:23.10
is its way of saying,
it's time to release it,
00:12:23.14\00:12:25.54
to look at and
sitting with someone,
00:12:25.57\00:12:27.11
giving them
permission to tell their story
00:12:27.14\00:12:29.51
without judgment, just letting,
00:12:29.54\00:12:30.88
sometimes they will start
00:12:30.91\00:12:32.25
connecting the
dots for themselves,
00:12:32.28\00:12:34.85
and realize that it was more
traumatic than they realized.
00:12:34.88\00:12:38.02
And that connection
of being with someone
00:12:38.05\00:12:40.82
who's gonna let
them tell their story
00:12:40.86\00:12:42.66
can be very
critical to creating safety
00:12:42.69\00:12:44.49
or like you said
that's that sacred space
00:12:44.53\00:12:46.80
where they can
begin processing...
00:12:46.83\00:12:49.16
Oh, I'm in a safe
place, I can let down.
00:12:49.20\00:12:52.30
What about the notion
00:12:52.33\00:12:54.04
that we should not talk
about the past, you know,
00:12:54.07\00:12:58.84
forgetting the
things which lie behind and,
00:12:58.87\00:13:00.98
you know, reaching forth
00:13:01.01\00:13:02.34
and the things which are before,
00:13:02.38\00:13:04.18
press toward the
mark, you know, the passage,
00:13:04.21\00:13:05.91
I've heard that quote...
00:13:05.95\00:13:07.28
You know, the interesting
thing about that passage?
00:13:07.32\00:13:08.65
Yeah...
00:13:08.68\00:13:10.02
Is if you look in that context,
00:13:10.05\00:13:11.39
he's just told you everything
he's left in the past.
00:13:11.42\00:13:12.75
Exactly. That's true.
00:13:12.79\00:13:14.76
And so, when I invite
people to do and they tell me,
00:13:14.79\00:13:16.79
are you willing to tell me
what you've left in the past?
00:13:16.83\00:13:18.59
And if they're in denial,
00:13:18.63\00:13:19.96
then guess what
the answer's gonna be.
00:13:20.00\00:13:21.43
So if you reach
scripture in context,
00:13:21.46\00:13:23.70
he is telling
you, he was a Pharisee,
00:13:23.73\00:13:25.17
he was proud, he
was self righteous,
00:13:25.20\00:13:26.90
he is telling you what
God has put in the past.
00:13:26.94\00:13:29.17
That's right.
00:13:29.20\00:13:30.54
And people have
gotten healing in wholeness.
00:13:30.57\00:13:31.91
They will use your
testimony in a way they say...
00:13:31.94\00:13:33.27
They're not gonna give you
00:13:33.31\00:13:34.64
all the dirty details
of the abuse or trauma.
00:13:34.68\00:13:36.31
But they're gonna
say here's where I was,
00:13:36.34\00:13:38.61
here's what happened,
00:13:38.65\00:13:39.98
and here's how God
brought me out of it,
00:13:40.02\00:13:41.35
and where he is
bringing me to it.
00:13:41.38\00:13:43.02
This is how Paul
was ready to move on,
00:13:43.05\00:13:44.92
because he said,
00:13:44.95\00:13:46.29
I can now forget it
00:13:46.32\00:13:47.66
because I just confessed this.
00:13:47.69\00:13:49.02
There you go.
00:13:49.06\00:13:50.39
And this is scriptural to
confess is getting it out.
00:13:50.43\00:13:52.13
Yeah.
00:13:52.16\00:13:53.50
And when we
confess to others, to God,
00:13:53.53\00:13:55.23
we're ready to...
00:13:55.26\00:13:56.60
When we face the pain,
we're ready to move on.
00:13:56.63\00:13:58.33
Now, is there a point
where some people overtalk?
00:13:58.37\00:14:01.34
Absolutely.
00:14:01.37\00:14:02.70
It's just like food, you
know, you can under process food
00:14:02.74\00:14:04.74
and try to live on raw broccoli,
00:14:04.77\00:14:06.21
or uncooked rice,
00:14:06.24\00:14:08.51
or you can overcook food,
00:14:08.54\00:14:10.61
you can over process it
and make people sick that way.
00:14:10.65\00:14:12.88
So I feel the same way about
00:14:12.91\00:14:14.78
talking about thing as possible.
00:14:14.82\00:14:16.38
We're talking about people
00:14:16.42\00:14:17.75
that are
terribly under processed,
00:14:17.79\00:14:19.65
but can people
dwell to the point
00:14:19.69\00:14:21.22
where it's harmful to them?
00:14:21.26\00:14:22.59
What will be the
motive for them sharing?
00:14:22.62\00:14:24.19
Are they sharing to connect
00:14:24.23\00:14:26.16
with other safe human
beings to move through it,
00:14:26.19\00:14:28.93
or are they sharing
00:14:28.96\00:14:30.30
just to avoid dealing
with the deeper issues?
00:14:30.33\00:14:32.57
Are they sharing
00:14:32.60\00:14:33.94
because they want
self pity, you know,
00:14:33.97\00:14:35.30
they just want your attention,
00:14:35.34\00:14:36.77
and they're pretty
much want to stay there
00:14:36.81\00:14:38.41
in that victim mindset.
00:14:38.44\00:14:39.77
That's great.
00:14:39.81\00:14:41.14
And so I think that the key here
00:14:41.18\00:14:42.51
for what I'm hearing is that
00:14:42.54\00:14:43.88
they could be stuck either way.
00:14:43.91\00:14:45.25
Stuck in...
00:14:45.28\00:14:46.61
Not talking about it
00:14:46.65\00:14:47.98
or stuck in
talking too much about it
00:14:48.02\00:14:49.48
without really dealing with it.
00:14:49.52\00:14:50.92
And using scripture to
avoid talking about it.
00:14:50.95\00:14:52.62
Yeah.
00:14:52.65\00:14:53.99
I mean, that's an
important point is that
00:14:54.02\00:14:55.36
we can use scripture to
avoid letting God work in heart.
00:14:55.39\00:14:58.86
So when God is
always after our hearts
00:14:58.89\00:15:00.40
all the way through scripture.
00:15:00.43\00:15:01.76
Yes.
00:15:01.80\00:15:03.13
And Jesus said, he came
to heal the broken heart.
00:15:03.16\00:15:05.33
That's right.
00:15:05.37\00:15:06.70
Bind up their wounds.
00:15:06.74\00:15:08.07
So, it's identifying,
00:15:08.10\00:15:09.44
helping the person
identifying where they're stuck.
00:15:09.47\00:15:10.81
Yes. Yes.
00:15:10.84\00:15:12.17
Okay. Amen.
00:15:12.21\00:15:13.54
So, Rob, would you read our
presenting problem for today?
00:15:13.58\00:15:15.74
Sure.
00:15:15.78\00:15:17.11
So we can all
come together on that.
00:15:17.15\00:15:18.88
Thomas is a 38 year old
white middle class married man,
00:15:18.91\00:15:22.62
who comes to therapy to
talk through a difficult event
00:15:22.65\00:15:25.22
surrounding a health
crisis in his family.
00:15:25.25\00:15:28.32
He is second of four children,
00:15:28.36\00:15:29.99
a four year old was recently
diagnosed with epilepsy,
00:15:30.03\00:15:33.43
and will likely
have to be on medication
00:15:33.46\00:15:35.23
for the rest of his life.
00:15:35.26\00:15:36.93
Thomas turned to his pastor,
00:15:36.97\00:15:38.70
who have just
graduated from seminary
00:15:38.73\00:15:40.07
was writing a book
about, why God allows suffering.
00:15:40.10\00:15:43.47
In an effort to
give Thomas some answers,
00:15:43.51\00:15:45.44
he asked him to
read one of the chapters.
00:15:45.47\00:15:47.84
Thomas received the
impression from the chapter
00:15:47.88\00:15:50.08
that although God care deeply,
00:15:50.11\00:15:52.25
that He could not do anything
to stop his son's epilepsy
00:15:52.28\00:15:55.18
or human
suffering for that matter.
00:15:55.22\00:15:57.75
Since then Thomas has wondered,
if God is in control at all,
00:15:57.79\00:16:03.12
has he been having night...
00:16:03.16\00:16:04.56
he has been having nightmares
00:16:04.59\00:16:05.93
about various
disasters occurring,
00:16:05.96\00:16:07.66
and these nightmares began
00:16:07.70\00:16:09.33
when he read the
pastor's chapter.
00:16:09.36\00:16:11.27
Okay.
00:16:11.30\00:16:12.63
So what would you
guys do in that situation?
00:16:12.67\00:16:14.67
How would you
help this man, Thomas?
00:16:14.70\00:16:18.91
Obviously,
there's a picture of God
00:16:18.94\00:16:20.61
that he has received
00:16:20.64\00:16:21.98
from reading the
chapters in the book,
00:16:22.01\00:16:23.85
and so one of the questions
00:16:23.88\00:16:25.21
that I would have
during the session,
00:16:25.25\00:16:26.58
one of the initial questions is,
00:16:26.61\00:16:28.15
what was it that
was in that chapter?
00:16:28.18\00:16:30.95
And begin to share with
me the things in the chapter
00:16:30.99\00:16:32.99
that has caused him to begin
00:16:33.02\00:16:35.92
to feel the way he does
and if that causes his trauma.
00:16:35.96\00:16:38.66
Would you...
00:16:38.69\00:16:40.90
any other input on that?
00:16:40.93\00:16:42.30
What would you guys do?
00:16:42.33\00:16:43.83
No, that's a place to start
00:16:43.87\00:16:45.30
because he's got a
God who cares deeply
00:16:45.33\00:16:47.20
but is powerless
to stop anything.
00:16:47.24\00:16:50.34
And I would want to bring
out that balance of, you know,
00:16:50.37\00:16:53.07
we live in a fallen world,
00:16:53.11\00:16:55.78
and that paradox of
living in a fallen world
00:16:55.81\00:16:57.71
with a God that sovereign.
00:16:57.75\00:16:59.25
And there's a difference between
00:16:59.28\00:17:00.62
God allowing evil or suffering,
00:17:00.65\00:17:02.98
and God willing it.
00:17:03.02\00:17:04.35
Some people actually believe
00:17:04.39\00:17:05.72
everything that
happens is God's will.
00:17:05.75\00:17:07.09
It's not God's will
anybody gets raped today.
00:17:07.12\00:17:08.56
I work a lot of these
victims, it's not God's will.
00:17:08.59\00:17:11.56
He didn't finagle things
00:17:11.59\00:17:12.93
and arrange things
just for that to happen.
00:17:12.96\00:17:15.43
It was something he did allow
00:17:15.46\00:17:17.73
and some people
have issue with that.
00:17:17.77\00:17:19.43
Why would God allow something,
00:17:19.47\00:17:21.30
and this is really where
theodicy comes into counseling.
00:17:21.34\00:17:24.87
Because people's healing is
00:17:24.91\00:17:26.71
so bound up in
their God concept,
00:17:26.74\00:17:28.41
how they see God,
00:17:28.44\00:17:29.94
and we have to try
to get across to them,
00:17:29.98\00:17:32.35
the reality of who God is.
00:17:32.38\00:17:34.38
If we say to
them, you know, well,
00:17:34.42\00:17:36.28
God couldn't do
anything about it.
00:17:36.32\00:17:37.65
He loves you and
he is compassionate,
00:17:37.69\00:17:39.02
he couldn't do any,
it's an attempted fix
00:17:39.05\00:17:41.59
but it can actually
cause another problem
00:17:41.62\00:17:44.29
which is a sense of chaos.
00:17:44.33\00:17:46.83
Well, this man reads
about God and suffering
00:17:46.86\00:17:51.70
and he comes away
with more symptoms.
00:17:51.73\00:17:54.44
They weren't there before.
00:17:54.47\00:17:56.54
So, I think an approach
with him would be to find out
00:17:56.57\00:17:59.11
what his God concept looks like.
00:17:59.14\00:18:00.48
Absolutely.
00:18:00.51\00:18:01.84
Who is God to you?
00:18:01.88\00:18:03.21
What is your
relationship with God?
00:18:03.24\00:18:04.75
Who do you see God is?
00:18:04.78\00:18:06.11
How do you relate to God?
00:18:06.15\00:18:08.25
Do you agree with the
picture that you have?
00:18:08.28\00:18:09.88
'Cause he may not agree.
00:18:09.92\00:18:13.12
But the individual,
00:18:13.15\00:18:14.62
because it was his
pastor saying this,
00:18:14.66\00:18:16.66
the individual being inclined
to differed with the pastor
00:18:16.69\00:18:19.46
because we tend to
see religious leaders
00:18:19.49\00:18:21.06
as knowing more
than we do about God,
00:18:21.10\00:18:24.43
and so that would be something
00:18:24.47\00:18:25.80
he'd have to
wrestle with this art.
00:18:25.83\00:18:27.17
Maybe pastor isn't perfectly
balanced in his presentation,
00:18:27.20\00:18:29.20
maybe he is working
through something of his own.
00:18:29.24\00:18:30.77
Absolutely.
00:18:30.81\00:18:32.14
You know, so.
00:18:32.17\00:18:33.51
If I got to know,
00:18:33.54\00:18:34.88
his picture of God
and the negative thoughts,
00:18:34.91\00:18:36.24
negative issues that
he sees as God, you know,
00:18:36.28\00:18:38.11
caring but being powerless.
00:18:38.15\00:18:39.65
Did Christ have
those experiences?
00:18:43.18\00:18:44.75
Did he have a why
question in his experience?
00:18:44.79\00:18:46.86
He sure did.
00:18:46.89\00:18:48.22
Jesus asked why?
00:18:48.26\00:18:49.96
And I tell
people, you can ask why,
00:18:49.99\00:18:52.79
because Jesus is your example.
00:18:52.83\00:18:54.50
I've been told it's wrong to ask
00:18:54.53\00:18:56.13
why because your question is all
00:18:56.16\00:18:57.50
what you have got,
00:18:57.53\00:18:58.87
but I've got a Jesus
in the cross asking why.
00:18:58.90\00:19:00.57
And I've got a Jesus according
to Paul in 2 Corinthians 13,
00:19:00.60\00:19:03.41
who became powerless,
00:19:03.44\00:19:05.44
he became weak,
when he was crucified.
00:19:05.47\00:19:07.61
He gave up that power
00:19:07.64\00:19:09.44
to experience
that sense of powerless
00:19:09.48\00:19:11.28
that you and I
feel when we can't stop
00:19:11.31\00:19:13.52
some of the bad
things that happen.
00:19:13.55\00:19:15.25
When we have a child that's
epileptic or has leukemia.
00:19:15.28\00:19:17.85
We don't have...
00:19:17.89\00:19:19.32
we go through this experience.
00:19:19.35\00:19:20.69
So we have a God who
chose to give up power
00:19:20.72\00:19:22.22
to experience that
sense of powerlessness,
00:19:22.26\00:19:24.36
weakness, helplessness,
to identify with us.
00:19:24.39\00:19:25.73
That's right.
00:19:25.76\00:19:27.10
In empathy with
us, that's right.
00:19:27.13\00:19:28.50
And speaking of trauma,
00:19:28.53\00:19:30.23
isn't the cross an
incredible study of trauma?
00:19:30.27\00:19:33.40
Because here is
Jesus on the cross
00:19:33.44\00:19:35.44
bearing the sins of the
world as if they were his own.
00:19:35.47\00:19:38.57
And that's
pressing down on his soul
00:19:38.61\00:19:40.61
which is as infinitely greater
00:19:40.64\00:19:42.71
than our souls as
God is greater than us.
00:19:42.74\00:19:45.88
But still carrying that
horrific trauma upon himself
00:19:45.91\00:19:49.68
and in the midst of that,
00:19:49.72\00:19:51.19
he says why
have you forsaken me.
00:19:51.22\00:19:54.32
He knew the story of
the plan of redemption.
00:19:54.36\00:19:56.79
He knew all the facts,
00:19:56.83\00:19:58.16
but he's not able to
pull them up right now,
00:19:58.19\00:20:00.30
because his
emotions are so overwhelming
00:20:00.33\00:20:02.70
that he just
cries out from his gut,
00:20:02.73\00:20:05.17
why have you forsaken me?
00:20:05.20\00:20:06.74
And did he get an
immediate response
00:20:06.77\00:20:08.17
to remove all those pain.
00:20:08.20\00:20:09.64
No, he didn't. No.
00:20:09.67\00:20:11.24
But ultimately...
00:20:11.27\00:20:12.61
And yeah,
00:20:12.64\00:20:13.98
he got God by praying
00:20:14.01\00:20:15.34
and bringing
his question to God.
00:20:15.38\00:20:17.25
Guess what he got,
00:20:17.28\00:20:18.61
he stayed connected with God.
00:20:18.65\00:20:19.98
Yeah, and that's the key.
00:20:20.02\00:20:21.35
Pretty since
everything truth, and safety,
00:20:21.38\00:20:23.45
and support
through the darkness.
00:20:23.49\00:20:25.82
No, but what he did was
he went to God, talk to God,
00:20:25.85\00:20:29.06
and kept that connection going.
00:20:29.09\00:20:31.23
How is he able to
continue his trust in God,
00:20:31.26\00:20:35.50
even on the cross?
00:20:35.53\00:20:37.43
And I think, that
is an important thing
00:20:37.47\00:20:38.80
to share with the individual.
00:20:38.83\00:20:41.00
How is Christ able to do that?
00:20:41.04\00:20:42.47
Well, he had this
relationship with Christ.
00:20:42.50\00:20:44.87
Excuse me...
00:20:44.91\00:20:46.24
had this
relationship with His father
00:20:46.27\00:20:48.54
that he ultimately
played full confident,
00:20:48.58\00:20:52.51
his life in full
confidence in the father saying,
00:20:52.55\00:20:55.68
okay, I'm in this
suffering, I'm in this trauma,
00:20:55.72\00:20:58.35
but I'm gonna
leave this in your hand
00:20:58.39\00:21:00.52
because you are
the sovereign God
00:21:00.56\00:21:02.06
and you know best.
00:21:02.09\00:21:03.73
So he goes both, my God, my God,
00:21:03.76\00:21:05.29
why have you forsaken me?
00:21:05.33\00:21:06.66
And then like,
David like you're saying,
00:21:06.70\00:21:08.03
into your hands,
I commit my spirit,
00:21:08.06\00:21:09.90
so we see this
faith in talking to God
00:21:09.93\00:21:12.53
when he doesn't seem present.
00:21:12.57\00:21:13.90
And then we see
this surrendering to him
00:21:13.94\00:21:16.40
and trusting him
in that situation.
00:21:16.44\00:21:18.71
Yes.
00:21:18.74\00:21:20.08
Very powerful,
very good stuff guys.
00:21:20.11\00:21:21.51
I really appreciate it,
00:21:21.54\00:21:22.88
so you're going to do a
recap of what we've covered
00:21:22.91\00:21:26.05
in this program so far.
00:21:26.08\00:21:28.85
So go ahead, Rob. Sure.
00:21:28.88\00:21:31.09
So pertaining to
this case right here,
00:21:31.12\00:21:33.62
we are saying that,
00:21:33.66\00:21:35.06
we need to process
00:21:35.09\00:21:36.42
what this
gentleman's picture of God is,
00:21:36.46\00:21:39.36
especially in relationship
to Jesus on the cross.
00:21:39.39\00:21:43.60
And what Jesus went
through on the cross
00:21:43.63\00:21:45.13
specifically was darkness,
his pain, he could not,
00:21:45.17\00:21:49.04
he could not see the plan
beyond what was happening.
00:21:49.07\00:21:53.81
There was just the
darkness surrounding him.
00:21:53.84\00:21:55.71
So in a sense you're saying that
00:21:55.74\00:21:59.75
we can empathize with
what Christ was going through
00:21:59.78\00:22:02.38
and God and
Christ could empathize
00:22:02.42\00:22:04.99
what we're going through.
00:22:05.02\00:22:07.82
And in through that process
00:22:07.86\00:22:10.53
Jesus was staying
connected to his father,
00:22:10.56\00:22:13.13
and he was trusting his father
00:22:13.16\00:22:14.60
even though he
couldn't see the answers.
00:22:14.63\00:22:17.40
And so this helps this
individual in particular
00:22:17.43\00:22:20.04
to begin to see that it's
possible to trust in a God
00:22:20.07\00:22:26.51
without all of the answers.
00:22:26.54\00:22:28.14
Now, going back
to the beginning,
00:22:28.18\00:22:29.81
we said that we need
to find that sacred space
00:22:29.84\00:22:32.68
with individuals
who are in trauma.
00:22:32.71\00:22:34.48
We need to give them
00:22:34.52\00:22:35.92
a chance to be able
to speak their story
00:22:35.95\00:22:38.49
in a safe environment.
00:22:38.52\00:22:40.46
We've also
talked about our bodies
00:22:40.49\00:22:43.22
that have they how
did you put a body memory
00:22:43.26\00:22:47.13
and it keeps a pain
inside of us somehow
00:22:47.16\00:22:50.97
that if we are not
getting the trauma out,
00:22:51.00\00:22:53.13
if we're not sharing it,
00:22:53.17\00:22:54.50
it will be manifested
in ways in our bodies...
00:22:54.54\00:22:55.90
If you don't stuff it.
00:22:55.94\00:22:57.27
Don't stuff it, exactly.
00:22:57.31\00:22:59.37
And so we talked
about in Paul's case
00:22:59.41\00:23:01.74
how he actually confessed,
00:23:01.78\00:23:03.88
what he was
going through in order
00:23:03.91\00:23:05.31
so that he could forget,
00:23:05.35\00:23:07.78
in order to move
on with the future.
00:23:07.82\00:23:09.15
Absolutely.
00:23:09.18\00:23:10.52
But so, it wasn't
just denial of the past.
00:23:10.55\00:23:12.95
It was as you said
in the chapter itself,
00:23:12.99\00:23:15.22
He put it all out there
00:23:15.26\00:23:17.16
and he was
telling the whole church
00:23:17.19\00:23:18.53
and God himself,
00:23:18.56\00:23:19.89
what was going
on, so that he can,
00:23:19.93\00:23:21.63
this was his way of
dealing with his healing
00:23:21.66\00:23:24.07
so that he can move on.
00:23:24.10\00:23:25.43
Looking forward. Absolutely.
00:23:25.47\00:23:26.80
So we need to get people
00:23:26.84\00:23:29.30
who are suppressing trauma
00:23:29.34\00:23:32.61
to the place where
they're talking about it.
00:23:32.64\00:23:34.91
And we need to help people
that are over talking about it
00:23:34.94\00:23:37.95
to get to the
place where they're
00:23:37.98\00:23:39.31
actually moving through
it and capable of moving on.
00:23:39.35\00:23:42.75
Now, this is where
counseling comes in.
00:23:42.78\00:23:45.35
Because counseling is kind
of a lost art among Christians.
00:23:45.39\00:23:48.82
You know, we kind
of have this attitude
00:23:48.86\00:23:50.39
that if you just pray enough
and read the Bible enough,
00:23:50.43\00:23:52.33
things go away.
00:23:52.36\00:23:53.80
But it doesn't always
work that way, does it?
00:23:53.83\00:23:55.86
Sometimes having a human
being work through that with you
00:23:55.90\00:24:00.30
can help you actually
see what God is really like,
00:24:00.34\00:24:03.07
how God regards a situation.
00:24:03.10\00:24:04.74
Can put another pair
of eyes on the situation,
00:24:04.77\00:24:07.91
so that, that
person can call out
00:24:07.94\00:24:10.38
some of the
things are going wrong
00:24:10.41\00:24:11.98
in your process of
dealing with trauma.
00:24:12.01\00:24:13.85
I think one of the challenges
00:24:13.88\00:24:15.22
that people may have with coming
00:24:15.25\00:24:16.58
to someone for counseling
needs is the idea that well,
00:24:16.62\00:24:20.22
this is my stuff
00:24:20.26\00:24:21.59
and I don't want it to be known.
00:24:21.62\00:24:22.96
I don't wanna share
it, I'm afraid to tell it.
00:24:22.99\00:24:25.09
And one of the
benefits of counseling
00:24:25.13\00:24:26.49
and something that
may give 'em confidence
00:24:26.53\00:24:29.10
and securities the fact that
00:24:29.13\00:24:30.57
confidentiality is a part
of the counseling process.
00:24:30.60\00:24:32.53
That's right.
00:24:32.57\00:24:33.90
That counselors
are bound where...
00:24:33.94\00:24:35.74
I like to say that
we're secret keepers.
00:24:35.77\00:24:37.44
Yeah.
00:24:37.47\00:24:38.81
And that's what we'll do.
00:24:38.84\00:24:40.18
We hold, we stand
with you in your pain.
00:24:40.21\00:24:43.48
We hold the pain,
00:24:43.51\00:24:45.71
we hold the story
00:24:45.75\00:24:47.32
and we walk with you through it.
00:24:47.35\00:24:48.68
Just this week I had someone...
00:24:48.72\00:24:51.72
Just as we get someone
00:24:51.75\00:24:53.09
apologize for
talking in a session,
00:24:53.12\00:24:55.46
apologize for
talking about another person,
00:24:55.49\00:24:57.56
where there is an
abuse situation that went on,
00:24:57.59\00:24:59.59
and I said with a counselor
00:24:59.63\00:25:01.40
there is different set of rules.
00:25:01.43\00:25:02.90
You're allowed to talk about
stuff 'cause it stays here.
00:25:02.93\00:25:05.63
It's not inclined to go out
00:25:05.67\00:25:08.07
as it would in a
regular social situation.
00:25:08.10\00:25:10.64
And there is a lot
of shame that can happen
00:25:10.67\00:25:12.84
with a lot of past trauma.
00:25:12.87\00:25:14.21
Absolutely.
00:25:14.24\00:25:15.58
And so by us being able
to be gentle with the client,
00:25:15.61\00:25:18.95
we can help them
to be able to share,
00:25:18.98\00:25:23.69
and it's kind of
takes a little bit away
00:25:23.72\00:25:27.09
from that shame element,
when they're able to talk
00:25:27.12\00:25:29.26
and were able to
extend grace and acceptance
00:25:29.29\00:25:31.63
and we're not,
there is no judgment here,
00:25:31.66\00:25:33.19
there is condemnation.
00:25:33.23\00:25:34.63
It's an amazing process
00:25:34.66\00:25:36.06
that can happen
like you're saying.
00:25:36.10\00:25:37.80
It's worth the investment,
00:25:37.83\00:25:39.17
people will often wish
that it would just go away,
00:25:39.20\00:25:42.34
you know, that wanna
put up a no fishing sign
00:25:42.37\00:25:44.31
and never pull it up again,
00:25:44.34\00:25:45.81
but then they find that
the trauma keeps resurfacing
00:25:45.84\00:25:48.68
in body memory
like you mentioned
00:25:48.71\00:25:50.71
or in various interactions
they have with people
00:25:50.75\00:25:53.21
or they can't function
well, or they can't sleep well,
00:25:53.25\00:25:55.58
and it doesn't just go away.
00:25:55.62\00:25:58.75
And so if you're
in that situation
00:25:58.79\00:26:00.82
and you're struggling
with the effects of trauma,
00:26:00.86\00:26:03.73
I would recommend that
you seek out counseling.
00:26:03.76\00:26:06.73
It's been proven to help,
00:26:06.76\00:26:09.13
a good Christian counselor
00:26:09.16\00:26:11.00
can really help
you see God better
00:26:11.03\00:26:13.47
and really
ultimately put you in a position
00:26:13.50\00:26:16.44
where you're better
able to connect with God,
00:26:16.47\00:26:18.37
so that you don't have to
rely on that counselor forever.
00:26:18.41\00:26:22.14
So you know, I
would encourage you,
00:26:22.18\00:26:24.75
if you're someone who
has wrestled with trauma
00:26:24.78\00:26:26.58
or you know people
00:26:26.61\00:26:27.95
that have connect with
a good Christian counselor
00:26:27.98\00:26:30.39
and try to move through that
00:26:30.42\00:26:31.89
because it's entirely possible.
00:26:31.92\00:26:33.86
And the Lord has told us,
"fear not for I'm with you,
00:26:33.89\00:26:38.19
be not dismayed
for I'm your God.
00:26:38.23\00:26:41.16
I will strengthen
you, I will help you
00:26:41.20\00:26:43.70
and I will uphold
you with my right hand."
00:26:43.73\00:26:47.07
God is by our side
00:26:47.10\00:26:49.04
and I believe that
when I'm counseling people,
00:26:49.07\00:26:50.87
He's right in that session
00:26:50.91\00:26:52.64
along side of
me with that person
00:26:52.67\00:26:54.28
through his Holy
Spirit, guiding the process.
00:26:54.31\00:26:56.85
In fact, I always
pray with my clients
00:26:56.88\00:26:59.08
and I ask the Holy
Spirit to guide the process
00:26:59.11\00:27:01.85
and we pray at the end
of the session as well.
00:27:01.88\00:27:03.79
Jen, thank you so much
00:27:03.82\00:27:05.99
for mentioning
about the Holy Spirit,
00:27:06.02\00:27:07.52
because we as
Christian counselors,
00:27:07.56\00:27:09.96
we have to be in
tune with the Holy Spirit
00:27:09.99\00:27:12.23
before we come into session.
00:27:12.26\00:27:14.63
We have to be abiding with Jesus
00:27:14.66\00:27:16.63
before we get into that session,
00:27:16.67\00:27:18.00
so that we can be
in tune with the spirit
00:27:18.03\00:27:20.20
and we can invite the spirit
with each and every sessions.
00:27:20.24\00:27:22.90
Powerful statement.
00:27:22.94\00:27:24.27
Yes indeed.
00:27:24.31\00:27:25.64
So as we
running out of time now,
00:27:25.67\00:27:28.44
we just want to
thank our panel here
00:27:28.48\00:27:30.15
for wonderful
comments on trauma,
00:27:30.18\00:27:32.81
and we just want
to invite everybody
00:27:32.85\00:27:34.58
to come back again
for a next program on,
00:27:34.62\00:27:39.69
yeah...
00:27:39.72\00:27:41.06
We look at more
mental health issues,
00:27:41.09\00:27:44.23
more solutions
to the common things
00:27:44.26\00:27:47.13
that plague us emotionally
00:27:47.16\00:27:49.36
and relationally
in our everyday lives.
00:27:49.40\00:27:52.83
Join us for the next program
of A Multitude of Counselors.
00:27:52.87\00:27:56.67