Participants: Arthur Nowlin (Host), Dr. Kim Logan-Nowlin (Host), Joanne Fuller
Series Code: MIW
Program Code: MIW000046A
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00:01 Hi, I am Dr. Kim Logan Nowlin. I'm Arthur Nowlin.
00:03 And welcome to Making It Work. 00:37 Today, we're going to talk to a very special guest. 00:39 She wears many, many hats. She's many roles. 00:42 But today she is here to talk about parenting, 00:46 role reversal, and the impact 00:49 it has had on her life. 00:50 Welcome Joanne Tolson Fuller. 00:52 How are you today? I'm good. 00:54 Thank you so much for having me today. 00:56 Oh, you're very welcome. 00:57 I love you personally because you take care 01:00 of the outer side of me and my inner soul. 01:03 You're my cosmetologist 01:04 and, you know, my beauty care specialist. 01:07 But you've gone through some things in this last year, 01:11 year and half. 01:12 Joanne, tell us your story 01:14 'cause no one knows your story like you. 01:16 Tell us about what has happen to you 01:18 and your parents? 01:20 Well, I've lost both of my parents. 01:24 My mother began the stages of dementia. 01:29 You know, I had so many names for it, 01:30 back then it used to be senility, dementia, 01:34 some people used to call it spell, 01:36 but she went through her stage of dementia 01:40 and I was the first one to notice it in the family 01:45 because I guess, because I'm not there, 01:47 I didn't live with them, where my brother 01:50 that lives in Chicago with them and my dad didn't see it 01:54 but I saw it. 01:56 And so it took them a while to get on board 02:00 as far as realizing what was going on 02:03 and seeking help. 02:07 But during that time that I've noticed it, 02:11 she wouldn't make little statements like 02:15 my cranium is not working today. 02:17 That was her favorite statement. 02:18 When she couldn't remember things 02:20 or when things got her frustrated, 02:22 you know, she would say, 02:23 "My cranium is not working today." 02:25 And... 02:28 Of course it progressed 02:29 because my dad wouldn't take her 02:32 to the hospital or to the doctors. 02:35 He felt like there was nothing wrong with her, 02:36 it was just old age. 02:38 And so, finally things did got to the point 02:44 where she would drive and get lost. 02:47 And we had one incident where she took-- 02:50 My dad had her doctor's appointment 02:52 and it was raining and she told him, 02:55 "I'm going to go and see if the car windows are up." 03:01 And he gave her the keys, and she went to the car 03:04 and when he came out from his doctor's appointment, 03:06 she could not be found. 03:09 So my brother calls me 03:10 because they couldn't find her anywhere. 03:12 And he calls me and I told him 03:15 what, did you put out a Amber Alert. 03:17 And so a lot of people think Amber Alert 03:19 is only for children, but it's not. 03:22 So I have to tell him to put out a Amber Alert 03:25 because she does not know. 03:26 I'm sure she does not know where she is going. 03:29 She probably thought she was going back 03:30 to Wisconsin or something 03:32 because she started talking about home a lot. 03:34 Going home, she started talking about her parents. 03:37 And she started talking about 03:40 her brothers and sisters, they were 12 of them, 03:42 but she was talking about them as they were younger. 03:46 And so, we put out a Amber Alert 03:48 and they found her 24 hours later 03:51 in a small town in Indiana. 03:53 And the police had to chase her down. 03:55 They had to shoot the tires out, 03:57 so that she would stop driving. 04:00 And even when they shot the tires out, 04:03 she got out of the car and just started running. 04:06 And so thank God 04:08 that, you know, nothing happened to her, 04:12 that nobody else found her that you know. 04:14 And then when my dad and brother 04:16 finally drove from Chicago to this little town in Indiana, 04:21 she came out, you know, they had her in the back 04:23 and she came out and was like, 04:24 "Hey, what's going on, you know, what you're doing?" 04:27 I mean she really had no-- She did not remember 04:30 what she had done. 04:31 And that was the turning point for my dad to really, 04:36 okay, you know, what? 04:37 This is what you need to do. 04:39 And it was a struggle for all of us, 04:42 but it was really a struggle for him 04:43 because, you know, this was his life mate 04:46 for over 50 years, for over 50 years. 04:50 And what I did was I started looking up information 04:54 for dementia and Alzheimer's, 04:56 and got into contact with Alzheimer's Association. 05:01 And they offered free classes everywhere. 05:04 And so my girlfriend started noticing 05:06 some things about her mom. 05:08 And we decided that we would go to these classes together. 05:11 So we went to these, there was a six week period 05:14 and we went to these classes together for six weeks 05:16 to learn about Alzheimer's, 05:19 to learn how to work with Alzheimer's patients. 05:22 How to deal with them, 05:23 you know, because a lot of people I found 05:26 and I found this with my dad that I have to really tell him, 05:30 you don't have to correct her all the time 05:32 because she is at her own world. 05:35 But she is telling a lie. 05:36 Well, but she doesn't know that is a lie, 05:40 you know, so you can't 05:42 but because then it makes them frustrated 05:44 and that's when they start getting angry, 05:46 so I've learned from the Alzheimer's Association 05:50 that there is their own world. 05:52 So you don't always have to correct them. 05:55 You know, if they say, the sky is red, 05:59 and you know the sky is blue. 06:00 Okay. Okay. 06:03 No, can't you see the sky is blue. 06:05 It frustrates them 06:07 and that's when a lot of the anger 06:08 and a lot of the confusion for them comes out. 06:12 And sometimes it sends them 06:15 spiraling down even to worse. 06:17 So Alzheimer's Association really helped me a lot 06:21 and they continue to send information, 06:25 like I said their classes are free. 06:27 They are free. 06:29 They will teach you how to do everything. 06:30 Excuse me. 06:32 So how long did this process go? 06:35 I mean, you know, when you first recognized it 06:39 and then as it progressed how, what was the time span? 06:41 It was probably about three or four years. 06:44 Okay. 06:45 To the point that she passed. 06:48 Most probably four years. 06:49 And here is your father, you're PK, pastor kid, 06:53 a preacher's kid, and you know, 06:56 I remember your mom being our Sabbath school teacher, 06:59 church, in the church, I mean just busy, 07:01 camp meeting at that corner 07:03 at the Lake Region Camp going out, 07:05 you know with her sister. 07:09 And to see or to have your brother call you 07:14 and say, okay, we found mom, 07:16 you know, did you have to start going back and forth. 07:19 What were your responsibilities all over this? 07:21 I did mainly with my mom because once they realized 07:29 and she did, they did finally put her on some medications 07:34 which helped to keep her a little calm. 07:36 You know, I tell to anyone, my mother to be lethargic, 07:39 to be, you know, like she is-- 07:42 you know because some people, they can't function. 07:45 And they just put them on so much medication, 07:48 but we just wanted her to stay calm and to be, 07:52 so that we could work with her. 07:54 And so, once they found out, 07:59 I didn't have to go back as often, 08:01 but what I did with my brother is that I told him, 08:03 he could call me anytime, day or night. 08:06 You know, because I was like his release. 08:09 And but I would go back and kind of help in, 08:14 and just to keep my face in. 08:19 The hardest part was when it got to the point 08:22 where she didn't know who I was. 08:24 And basically she didn't know 08:26 who a lot of us were, didn't know. 08:28 What point was that? 08:29 When Alzheimer's started really progressing, 08:33 who are you again and ask, you know, 08:35 you ask a question. 08:36 Do you have children? Yeah, I have children. 08:39 Well, and then, but she is looking at you like 08:41 who are you, you know. 08:44 So and then even my dad, I guess it had regressed 08:49 or back to the point where they were like dating. 08:52 So he would try to get her ready for bed 08:55 or something like that. 08:56 You can't be doing that. I can't-- 08:58 You're not supposed to be in my house, 09:00 you know, that kind of stuff. So it was like, okay. 09:04 And there was one time I came up 09:06 and had cooks for them and was washing dishes 09:11 and my dad told her, okay, 09:14 well, can I get you ready for bed? 09:15 Well, who is going to do it because you can't do it. 09:18 And he said, look behind you, 09:21 look and see who is behind you and he was like... 09:24 She looked behind and you mean 09:26 that lady is going to put me to bed. 09:29 That lady. That lady. 09:31 And another time I went and she had-- 09:35 she was walking around with my picture in her hand. 09:38 And because we put all of our pictures 09:42 on her mirror in her bedroom. 09:44 And so she-- I guess she had taken it down, 09:46 was walking around the house with my picture in her hand. 09:48 And finally one evening, 09:50 we were just sitting in the living room, 09:52 talking and everything. 09:53 She looked at the picture 09:55 and she just threw it in the corner. 09:57 And I mean that just kind of like, that crushed me. 10:02 You know, and everybody was looking at me like, 10:04 okay, what is she going to do? 10:05 But I didn't react. 10:06 I didn't react because she didn't know 10:08 what she was doing, you know. 10:10 And, you know, so you through those things, 10:12 so I really-- It's heart wrenching 10:15 to see your parents. 10:17 You know, you think they're going to be there forever. 10:19 You know, we know their life is not forever 10:22 but when it comes to the point that you gonna lose them 10:25 or you're losing them, this is heart wrenching. 10:29 Absolutely. Had your father had a stroke? 10:32 You said he had multiple strokes, 10:33 as your father passed away also recently. 10:36 Did he had any strokes during the time 10:39 your mom was ill? 10:40 No, he didn't. 10:41 Actually God kept him, kept him really healthy. 10:45 All together. Yes, he did. 10:47 And he took care of her. 10:49 There was no way that she is going to a home. 10:52 No way. No way. 10:54 That wasn't even-- That wasn't even an option. 10:55 That wasn't even an option. 10:57 And so, we went and we had to take carpeting up 11:00 in the house and you know, 11:02 put chairlifts up to go up the stairs, 11:07 brought chairs that could-- 11:08 the ones that can help you get up. 11:12 We just really just changed the house 11:13 so that she could function in the house. 11:17 And but there was no way 11:19 that he was going to put her in a nursing home. 11:21 So at this point the whole family is devastated. 11:25 Oh, yeah. 11:26 You know, and it's like the more information 11:29 that came out, you know, the more you recognized 11:32 that there was really nothing that could be done. 11:35 But in the meanwhile 11:38 they were also providing you with medication. 11:43 Right. To help. 11:45 What actually did the medication do? 11:47 The medication, one medication just kept her kind of calm. 11:51 One medication was also supposed 11:53 to slow the advancement of this Alzheimer's. 11:57 It was supposed to slow it down. 11:59 It would not take it way. 12:01 It would not even make her go back to, 12:05 it would just kind of slow it down. 12:07 And there's a lot-- 12:09 there are lot of medications out there, 12:10 but you have to pick and choose. 12:14 You really do because like what are the medications 12:16 they want to put her on caused fainting. 12:20 Now, my dad was 80 something also, 12:24 so if she faints in the house, so if you take her somewhere, 12:27 she faints, who is going to pick her up. 12:30 That was one of the major side effects of the medicine. 12:35 So we decided not to put her on that medicine. 12:38 But there are lot of different. And you have to ask questions. 12:42 You know, lot of doctors got a little upset with those 12:46 because we'd ask questions and why, 12:49 and, well, we don't that. 12:51 Well, I'm your doctor. 12:53 What do you mean you don't want it? 12:54 But we still ask. We still have a choice. 12:57 So you have to ask questions. 12:59 You have to stand up for your loved ones. 13:05 Did you also receive like assistance from...? 13:10 Yes. Okay. 13:11 Yes, we did receive assistance that came in, 13:14 three to four times a week. 13:15 And they would make sure that she, you know, 13:17 she was taken care of, that she was bathed 13:20 and they would cook, clean, light cleaning, 13:24 maybe even do some light laundry, stuff like that. 13:27 And that really helped my dad. 13:30 And then of course my brother would 13:31 who, he still lives in Chicago. 13:34 He also went over to help. 13:36 So it was-- it's a lot of work but... 13:40 And you still maintained your business here in Detroit. 13:43 You're married, you have a son. Yes. 13:46 And you're women's ministry leader of the church. 13:49 Yes. 13:51 You know, music committee, lot of hats you wear. 13:55 You know, and, you know, your own spirituality. 13:59 How did it impact your spirituality? 14:01 It was hard. It was hard. 14:03 It was rough. 14:06 Actually, it was like, 14:09 you know, how some times you get so busy 14:12 that it's almost you have no time for God 14:15 but I would find myself praying 14:16 while I was on the road a prayer 14:18 because it's like you don't have time to sit and study. 14:21 You don't have time to just 14:23 and so actually it was after my mother passed. 14:28 And, you know, I was really going through and-- 14:33 I told, I asked God, you know, You told me 14:35 that You would be a Comforter. 14:37 And I know I haven't been in the word like 14:39 I should have been and I know I haven't been studying, 14:42 but you know, I talked to you everyday 14:45 and even talk and pray while I'm driving, 14:47 I talk and pray while I'm working, whatever. 14:50 And, one morning I got up and I went down 14:53 and I got my Sabbath school lesson, 14:55 I got two different versions of the Bible, 14:58 I got the Desire of Ages, I just and I sat on my bed 15:01 and I was like, okay, Lord, show me something. 15:04 Something like because I felt like I was going crazy. 15:07 I felt like I was losing it. 15:09 And it was really just-- I could just hear His voice 15:13 and He just said, "You need to pull all that away. 15:17 You can't hide behind all of that. 15:19 You need to come directly to me." 15:20 I see. 15:21 And I mean, that morning was just 15:24 and I crawled up at my pillow 15:28 and I held my pillow and I'm telling you, 15:31 when you hear people say, 15:32 they feel like they're in the bosom of God, 15:34 I felt like I was in the bosom of God. 15:37 And I just cried and cried because I couldn't cry 15:40 because I was so busy, I couldn't, 15:42 and then my brothers depended on me, 15:44 I'm the only girl. 15:45 So they depended on me to do, even with the funeral, 15:48 with everything. 15:49 You know, with my dad, like the funeral, 15:51 my dad was like whatever she wants. 15:54 And they would ask questions and they all will look at me, 15:57 whatever she wants. 15:58 Talking about you. Talking about me. 16:00 Whatever I want to do. 16:02 Whatever she says, you all do. 16:04 Whatever, you know. 16:05 So everything I felt like everything was on me. 16:09 So I couldn't break. 16:11 For the services did you do your mother's hair? 16:13 No. No, but I... 16:14 You step back. 16:16 I did step back with that, in fact my sister-in-law 16:18 had to make me step back from 16:19 because I also do obituaries in program, 16:22 lot of desktop publishing she said no, 16:24 you're not going to do that. 16:25 You gonna be a daughter. 16:27 Today, I'm going to be your daughter today. 16:28 I didn't sing for her funeral. 16:30 But just-- but what I did, 16:32 I gave her one of my dresses that she loved, 16:35 and I did have them put that on her 16:37 and but yeah... 16:38 Did you make that? No. 16:40 She sows also beautifully, 16:43 wedding coordinator and just everything. 16:45 Oh, she can cook and bake. 16:47 My goodness, I directed this wedding 16:50 and when I do weddings, I call on Joanne, 16:52 and she did this beautiful arrangements 16:55 of all the desserts. 16:56 Remember that wedding? I remember. 16:58 And it was absolutely fad 16:59 and the wedding cake was unbelievable, 17:01 delicious, Joanne made that. 17:03 So just multitalented and we just went to a wedding 17:07 that Joanne coordinated, 17:08 but as she was in the wedding too. 17:11 And that was a beautiful wedding. 17:13 That's almost like a release, you know, 17:18 that do you do so many things, you know, 17:21 it's like a cover, as you are indicating, 17:24 you know, you were involved, couldn't cry, you know, but... 17:27 I couldn't break down. 17:28 You couldn't break down 'cause... 17:29 I don't have time to break down. 17:31 You were involved in all these different things, 17:32 you know, but when you really came to the point 17:36 where you had to release, you recognized that to God 17:42 delivering a message to you that you had to go to him 17:45 straightforward, you know, 17:47 without any other distractions. 17:49 He wanted you to connect with him. 17:52 And how did you feel at that moment, you know, 17:54 when you did connect? 17:55 I'm telling you, it was-- and I understand, 17:59 I understand what people say 18:02 that you're in the bosom of Jesus 18:05 because that's how I felt. 18:06 I felt like I was, 18:08 I felt literally like he'd wrapped me up 18:11 and I was just in his chest crying, 18:14 just in His bosom just crying. 18:16 I mean because I had developed 18:20 high blood pressure and diabetes. 18:22 What? After my mother passed. 18:24 What? 18:25 Never, never had any issues with that, never. 18:29 And then up until last-- Well, 18:32 last year they were getting ready to take me off 18:34 of all the medicine and then my dad passed. 18:38 And then your dad passed. So it flared up again. 18:40 Okay. Mercy. 18:42 Yeah. So... 18:44 Was there a difference in the way you responded, 18:47 you know, when your mother passed 18:49 and your dad passed? 18:50 I was a daddy's girl. Okay. 18:52 Yes, she was. I was a daddy's girl. 18:54 So that was, that was hard. 18:58 That was really, really, really, really hard. 19:01 And with my dad, I was really on the road 19:05 because now it was just my brother there 19:08 taking care of my dad 19:10 and he had a stroke and gone to rehab 19:15 and had come home 19:17 and but they found an area in his brain 19:20 that was inoperable 19:21 and they said that he would continue to have strokes 19:24 and he would-- 19:26 if he had surgery, he would die. 19:28 He wouldn't make it. 19:29 He wouldn't make it through the surgery. 19:30 So that was-- that was really, really hard. 19:35 So I was on the road a lot then 19:37 because I didn't want my brother 19:38 to have to deal with that. 19:41 My youngest brother lives in Toronto. 19:43 And he is one who does not deal with that very well. 19:48 His thing is, I will give you what you need, you know, 19:54 and you know, he loves so we don't push him. 19:56 We don't push him. 19:58 We know that if could deal with it he would be there. 20:00 We just kept him up on information. 20:03 But I would go to Chicago and help my brother 20:06 with my dad a lot. 20:07 So when you were doing this, 20:09 I mean as you are at church most of the time. 20:12 That was always, I mean sometimes 20:13 I would drive down Saturday, 20:14 come back Monday, drive down 20:17 because or drive down Monday, 20:18 come back Wednesday 20:20 and schedule appointments around 20:22 you know, schedule my work appointments 20:24 around all of that 20:25 because sometimes I needed to be there 20:27 during the week to take care of business from my brother. 20:31 Sometimes I would take a train, 20:32 so that I wouldn't have to drive if I was tired 20:35 or so it was a lot, it was stressful. 20:40 And especially when he started having the strokes 20:42 after that first one. 20:44 You could see the decline. 20:46 And we knew it, we knew that the time was short 20:51 because I didn't want my dad to suffer 20:53 and I pray that my dad would not suffer 20:55 and he will not be hooked up 20:58 and he didn't want that either. 20:59 Okay. 21:01 So during this time it was really busy 21:04 and we had women's retreat in Wisconsin 21:07 and then after that I had a gown 21:11 that I had to finish up for this lady and so, 21:14 you know, I said, Lord, I hope it doesn't sound selfish 21:17 because I knew and I said, if you give me two more weeks 21:22 so because I can't leave these people hang here. 21:24 So you had a feeling, 21:26 a sense that it was coming soon. 21:28 I did. 21:30 And he gave me two more weeks till the day. 21:33 What? Yes. 21:36 So you have not 'cause you ask not. 21:38 Because I couldn't leave-- 21:40 I couldn't leave these people hang here 21:41 and that's how I felt, 21:43 but he gave two more weeks till the day. 21:45 So you weren't with your father? 21:46 We were with my father. When he passed. 21:48 We all were in his room 21:49 when they took him off the ventilator. 21:52 And we got there on Friday and they told us 21:55 that there was no brain function. 21:57 But it was funny that when I got there... 22:03 And I said, "Dad, I'm here." 22:06 He started shaking. 22:07 And like he was trying to, trying to get up as toughen 22:10 and the nurses looked and, you know, I told him, 22:14 "Okay, calm down, calm down." 22:16 And I just started rubbing his hair 22:18 and he just calmed right down. 22:20 And the nurses were like, "There's no brain function." 22:24 And so, you know, he just-- seriously, he just relaxed. 22:32 And so we met with the doctors, 22:35 all of us met with the doctors on Saturday 22:39 and they took him off, they said, 22:40 they're going to take him off the life support on Sunday. 22:43 And they took him off life support at 2 o'clock 22:47 on that Sunday. 22:49 And we stayed near the whole time 22:52 and he left about 30 minutes later. 22:55 Hmm. Yeah. 22:58 And that was, that was hard, that was-- that was rough. 23:02 That was really rough. I'm telling you. 23:04 Did you get a opportunity to grieve, you know? 23:08 You know, I thank God for my sister-in-law Pam. 23:14 She really was there. She really was there. 23:18 My oldest brother, you know, he was, okay, 23:21 look out to this doctor, that doctor. 23:22 And you know, we have to tell him just relax, 23:25 everything is going to work out. 23:28 And thank God that they really stepped up 23:31 because I told them 23:32 that I couldn't do this by myself this time. 23:34 You can't leave everything on me. 23:36 It was too much. That was too much. 23:39 And what was the timeframe 23:40 between your mother and your father? 23:41 Almost three years. Three years apart. 23:43 Almost three years, so it's close. 23:45 And the church family was there for you? 23:46 Oh, my goodness, I was shocked, 23:48 about whole bus load came up to Chicago. 23:50 No. Really. 23:52 Yeah. Yeah, for the funeral. 23:54 And it was nice. It was nice. 23:58 Yeah, but that's, 23:59 that's your parents are the hardest, 24:02 you know, they say children, and I know children are, 24:05 I know that but... 24:07 Yeah. 24:09 I felt like my dad was my support system. 24:11 He was always there for me. 24:13 I could talk to him about anything, you know, 24:17 and he would listen whether he agree with it or not. 24:19 He may haven't even agree with everything 24:21 but he would listen. 24:23 And there were times when I-- I wasn't in the church, 24:27 I had left the church. 24:29 And my mother and I weren't talking 24:31 and he used to write me little letters, 24:36 you know, I love you, you're still my daughter. 24:39 You know, that I don't like your lifestyle 24:41 but you're still the child of God, 24:43 and I still love you. 24:45 And just send me little cards and stuff. 24:47 And I know she didn't know, you know, 24:49 because she would have been made 24:51 that he was communicating with me 24:52 but he was my rock. 24:55 He was very intelligent man. 24:57 And I know he wasn't perfect. 24:59 You know, I know that, but that was my dad. 25:03 That was my dad. He was... 25:09 And I remember, I remember 25:11 you being a little girl at Burns 25:13 when Pastor Tolson was installed 25:15 and I'll never forget that. 25:16 We had such a good team lecture. 25:19 We had Marshall T. 25:20 Kelly, we had, you know, Elder, Pastor Tolson. 25:25 We had the Nelsons, Sis Alice Drawbridge, 25:29 I mean growing up in a church where there was support 25:32 and love and people around you that you could, you know, 25:36 role models that you can count on. 25:39 So coming back to the church, 25:42 I know it made your father very happy. 25:43 He was. He was, he was ecstatic. 25:48 Look, in the next minute and 17 seconds, 25:53 what could you say to our listening audience 25:56 to help them deal with grief such as what you've dealt with? 26:01 Talk about it. Don't keep it inside. 26:06 Like I'll say it again I've cleared up again 26:08 with my blood pressure and diabetes, 26:12 and also develop sciatica 26:15 and for some reason a herniated disc. 26:17 One morning I just woke up and couldn't walk. 26:22 So talk to someone, 26:24 I'm in therapy right now dealing with the loss. 26:29 And so many people once they experience devastating loses, 26:34 they do, they make rash decisions and... 26:39 one thing my therapist told me was don't do anything 26:43 because I was ready to get divorced. 26:46 I was ready-- I was ready to go out back hard. 26:48 I was going to move. Everything. 26:52 She said, don't leave the house, 26:55 don't back hard, and forget about that, 26:57 forget about movement... 27:01 until till we get some issues together 27:04 but lot of people do things 27:05 when they're grieving because you're reaching, 27:10 you're looking for something, your, you know, 27:13 and you're looking for something to satisfy 27:16 or to make you feel better, 27:18 but you got to heal from the inside. 27:20 And our churches need to develop 27:22 some grief counseling, 27:25 maybe some support groups, 27:29 so that we know, 'cause I know 27:31 that I'm not the only one 27:32 that's going through this. 27:33 I don't feel alone in that area, 27:35 but we need to bring those people together, 27:38 so that we can, so that we can heal. 27:40 Because until we heal, a lot of times 27:43 when we don't go for ourselves 27:45 and we can't help other people like we want to or should. 27:49 Oh, wow, this has been amazing. 27:52 I just want to thank Joanne for coming, my dear friend. 27:55 But I just want to say that we can make it 27:59 and God can continue to help us making it work. 28:01 Amen. Yes, He can. 28:03 And you have Joanne. 28:04 I'm Dr. Kim Logan Nowlin. I'm Arthur Nowlin. 28:06 We want to thank Joanne Tolson 28:07 for being with us on Making It Work. 28:09 God bless. God bless. |
Revised 2015-10-15