Hi, I'm Dr. Kim Logan-Nowlin.
And I'm Arthur Nowlin.
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And welcome to "Making It Work."
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Arthur, when you think about
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someone who has
gone through divorce
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and facing
divorce, what comes to mind?
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Transition, thinking
about a lot of things
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that you have to do.
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And whereas
maybe you had a partner
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to assist you in
some of those things.
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Now you're faced with
doing those things alone.
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I think that companionship
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is not big void
in that you think,
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and then also rejection
or them feeling at a loss
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with that
person no longer there.
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Yes, definitely it's a
loss. Its almost like grieving.
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You know, when
you think about that,
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you know, divorce is
like death and grieving.
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I agree with that.
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Well, today on Making It Work
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we have definitely
stepped outside the box.
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Arthur and I, we asked
a very dear friend of us
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to join us today, who
is not only facing divorce,
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who has gone
through it recently.
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But not just that he is a pastor
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of the Burns
Seventh-Day Adventist Church
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in Detroit, Michigan.
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Welcome Pastor Cory Jackson.
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Oh, thank you for having me.
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It's a pleasure.
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You know we've
been working on this
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for sometime to get you here.
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How're you doing?
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I'm doing well.
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You're doing better?
Doing better, healing.
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Healing, that's a
good word, healing.
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So what do you do to heal?
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What do I do to heal?
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Well, at first and
foremost I'm in counseling
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so that helps a
great deal, prayer,
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having a good
support group to be around
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and also having sounding boards.
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Excellent.
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And so, and then keep
myself busy right now,
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think that's the
big thing for me.
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Well you know, we're
entitle to show the blind side,
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didn't you see it coming?
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You know, you had no clue
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that your wife no longer
wanted to be married to you?
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No, I didn't and I don't
think anyone who is in love,
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they start
looking to be divorced.
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I think that's
why it's a blind side.
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I think if we had
spent time arguing,
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being at each others
throats, always disagreeing,
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there was some
physical involvement,
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but none of
those things happened.
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And so you don't
tend to think that
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the one you said I do
to would eventually says
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I don't want this anymore. So-
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Well listen, why don't we
let you tell your testimony
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how it all came about
and from the first day
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you read that note until today.
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Well, it happened
about 14 months ago.
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September 18th, received a note
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and the note explained
that the inevitable is coming,
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which is divorce. I
was totally shocked.
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So went
upstairs talked about it.
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She already had her bags
packed and she left that day.
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And the following
month I had divorce papers.
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And I think the
most challenging thing is
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really not
knowing the real reason.
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It's just, I'm
tired of being married,
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tired of being the first
lady, tired of being in church
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and that's the
service of what you get.
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And so it's a
death as you say it
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because it's
collateral damage too
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because it affects not only you,
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it affects your children,
affects people around you,
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it affects the
family, it affects friends,
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you know, it
affects even your enemies.
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So we got
divorced in March of 2012.
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And it's been the hardest
I'll say, it's devastating.
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And I don't think
anyone is ever prepared for it
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because of the
emotional draining,
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the spiritual
draining, the physical draining,
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and then being a
father, being a pastor,
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there is still
pressure that's on me
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to still be before
the people smiling.
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And not showing
any signs of weakness
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and then your children are
trying to figure it all out.
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Your family is
trying to figure it all out.
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Your friends are
trying to figure it all out.
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And you're
constantly reliving it
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because everybody is
asking what happened?
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What happened?
How did this happen?
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They never say
things like not you all.
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You all seemed
like the perfect family
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because, you know,
whenever I go speak,
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I always say with the Jackson 5.
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But you know I
guess I forgot that
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Jackson 5 did split up two.
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No, you didn't. They did.
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So they did split up. So that--
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How many children?
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We have three children.
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How has this
impacted the children?
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Very tough, because
you get used to seeing
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mommy and daddy always together,
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doing everything together,
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and now you see them separated.
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And it takes an emotional
toll on them more than anything,
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because at this point
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they feel that
they don't have a voice,
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because you know
what do they say,
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they can't make
us stay together,
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they can't keep us together,
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so they just feel like
part of its their fault,
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they feel as though no
one's come to the rescue
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and then they look at
God a little bit different.
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Did you-
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I'm thinking one of
the things is children
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basically wait for the results.
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You know, they wait to find out
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what's going to be the final
result out of this situation.
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And changes their lives.
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They know that their lives
are in a process of change.
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Another thing that
you said earlier that
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I want to go
back to is a fact that
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you said you
didn't see it coming.
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No.
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You know, but I tell you,
well a lot of research said
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that is out there
in regards to divorce.
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One of the things that
they indicate is the person
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who files the divorce had been
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contemplating
divorce for a while.
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I agree with that. Yeah.
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Yeah, because she filed on me
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and she had mentioned
that she once thought about
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but didn't know how
it's going to take place.
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And so I guess she
got to a point where,
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you know, it was
time for it to happen.
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She did. How old
are your children?
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22, 18 and 12.
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I see, so now let me ask
you, let's go back a little bit.
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How did you become
Seventh-day Adventist
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because you were not born
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and raised
Seventh-day Adventist?
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Not at all, I
was actually studying
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to be a Black
Panther and Black Muslim.
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And then I was working
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at a youth home
called St. John's Home.
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And a gentleman by the name
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of Rich Magsby
was working there.
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His wife was a Bible worker
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in Lake Region Conference
of Seventh-day Adventist.
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And he sort of asked
me about Bible studies.
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He asked me about
this Jesus and others.
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And so I was
fighting out tooth and nail.
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I'm not serving any white Jesus,
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as to white man's religion,
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you know all the
sayings that Islam give you.
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And don't let
the bowtie fool you.
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I'm not Muslim.
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But he kept, he was persistent
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but he was also a
Christian, he is also patient.
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And so eventually,
you know, my ex wife and I
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we decided o take Bible studies.
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And she took Bible studies also?
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Yeah, it took us a
year and half together.
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And she accepted the message.
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She accepted everything.
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And we got baptized
together. March 21st 1997.
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You remember the date.
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I remember the date.
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It wasn't just
your influence over her,
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I mean in her heart
she had been convicted.
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Yes, yeah.
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As we studied together like
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I said it took
us a year and a half
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and that's when we
got baptized together.
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So during this
process, she is right there
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by your side seeing
the relationship grow,
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your relationship with Christ.
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So what happened
during the process
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of because you were in
Grand Rapids, Michigan?
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Well, I think
first and foremost,
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she didn't expect for me
to be a pastor neither did I.
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But we usually go out
together at the Bethel Church.
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And things were lovely.
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I was a probation officer
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and she was
working at a college.
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And so things began to
transitioning our lives.
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We already had
two children by then
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and so transitions
began to happen rapidly.
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From me going to a
small missionary school
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called Black
Hills Missionary College
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in South Dakota,
coming back home.
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And then from there
two years after that
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becoming a
minister, a full time pastor.
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And then things just
kept moving real quickly.
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And, pastor, during that time,
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you never saw her
depressed or any anxiety.
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Did she ever come
to you and say to you,
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I can't handle
this, this is not for me?
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Well, those words were
never said, I can't handle it.
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But you can see the anxiety.
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You can see the challenges.
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But you know
with anything for me,
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you know, the Lord
wouldn't have called us,
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if he hadn't provided a way.
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But it takes two of us
to believe that, not one.
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So for a while you
were making this transition
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and doing the things
that you needed to do
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to get strong in your faith,
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you didn't sense the
same type of strength.
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Well, I did
because we would have
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Friday night Bible
studies at our home.
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We go to prayer
meeting together,
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we were at church.
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You know we
would study together,
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she would study
right in her Bible.
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And so the signs were there,
I think the challenge became,
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when she became a first lady
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and the pressure that
the church at times put on.
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But also I think
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her personality
is not like mine.
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And so because of
that I think that added
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some challenges
towards her as well
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because church members
and I don't blame them,
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they expect the first
family to be a certain way,
00:10:02.37\00:10:04.93
act a certain
way, do certain things,
00:10:04.96\00:10:07.30
and so sometimes, when
you are not meeting that mark,
00:10:07.33\00:10:10.69
it becomes a
challenge for some people.
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Did you see that
that in the process
00:10:13.36\00:10:15.82
she was feeling extremely
uncomfortable with that?
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I mean with
that first lady role?
00:10:19.11\00:10:21.19
I've seen it.
00:10:21.22\00:10:22.45
Yeah, so it was
almost, the expectations
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that was placed on
you and your family.
00:10:26.60\00:10:29.67
When she didn't fulfill
it, that gave her more anxiety?
00:10:29.70\00:10:32.89
I believe so
initially... how do I put,
00:10:32.92\00:10:37.19
initially we
were just regular folk
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and I hope you can follow along.
00:10:39.97\00:10:41.27
And then the Lord began
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to move things
up to full change.
00:10:42.55\00:10:45.95
And as you move upward,
there's more expectation,
00:10:45.98\00:10:50.16
there's more pressure,
success now is around us
00:10:50.19\00:10:54.40
and because of that people now
see you in a different light.
00:10:54.43\00:10:57.76
And so you begin to
think, hey you know what,
00:10:57.79\00:10:59.79
I didn't sign
up for all of this.
00:10:59.82\00:11:01.66
I signed up for
this but now my husband
00:11:01.69\00:11:04.18
is preaching here,
he is preaching there,
00:11:04.21\00:11:06.68
he didn't grow up in the church.
00:11:06.71\00:11:08.92
Everywhere he goes,
you know he is baptizing
00:11:08.95\00:11:11.41
and now the Jackson
family is a household name.
00:11:11.44\00:11:15.02
And so with that
comes a household attitude,
00:11:15.05\00:11:18.52
a household behavior
that everyone expects.
00:11:18.55\00:11:21.63
And for some, it's very
challenging to deal with.
00:11:21.66\00:11:24.87
Everybody can't handle
the lights and the camera.
00:11:24.90\00:11:28.39
You know some people like
to just stay in the background.
00:11:28.42\00:11:30.64
And that's what she is.
00:11:30.67\00:11:31.72
She is very great when it
comes to administrative things,
00:11:31.75\00:11:35.61
she is very organized.
00:11:35.64\00:11:37.34
But she is kind of a, she
is behind the scene person.
00:11:37.37\00:11:39.37
Okay.
00:11:39.40\00:11:40.43
Did you ever say to
her coming in from church,
00:11:40.46\00:11:45.61
you know did you
notice anything at church
00:11:45.64\00:11:48.01
when you will be preaching?
00:11:48.04\00:11:49.53
Did you see
expressions on her face?
00:11:49.56\00:11:51.80
Did you pick up on anything?
00:11:51.83\00:11:53.78
You know and again forgive
me not to offend you pastor.
00:11:53.81\00:11:57.10
But you know you're the
pastor, you're the man of God,
00:11:57.13\00:11:59.19
you help in healing families,
you are counseling people
00:11:59.22\00:12:03.09
but you are not seeing
00:12:03.12\00:12:04.19
what's going on in
your own household.
00:12:04.22\00:12:05.95
How did this happen?
00:12:05.98\00:12:08.96
Well, if I can
find out the answer,
00:12:08.99\00:12:11.31
then I can tell you.
00:12:11.34\00:12:13.20
There are things that I
saw but not to the point
00:12:13.23\00:12:16.85
that it will catapult
us to where we are now.
00:12:16.88\00:12:19.68
So there are
small things that I saw
00:12:19.71\00:12:22.16
but they were big.
00:12:22.19\00:12:23.63
And so you talk about it
00:12:23.66\00:12:25.58
and you pray
that it will go away
00:12:25.61\00:12:28.89
and it'll get better
with the better support group.
00:12:28.92\00:12:31.38
And I think also a
lot of the first ladies
00:12:31.41\00:12:33.73
in our churches, unfortunately
00:12:33.76\00:12:35.43
they don't have a support group.
00:12:35.46\00:12:36.50
They don't have a support group.
00:12:36.53\00:12:37.57
And so because
they don't have someone
00:12:37.60\00:12:38.74
they can bend their
ear on, a sounding board.
00:12:38.77\00:12:42.96
They don't have those things,
00:12:42.99\00:12:44.07
so now they have to keep
all the stuff on the inside.
00:12:44.10\00:12:47.41
And then they have to,
you know face the music
00:12:47.44\00:12:49.84
and laugh and smile
00:12:49.87\00:12:51.87
and they're dying on the inside.
00:12:51.90\00:12:53.02
Could they have the
shepherdess with us,
00:12:53.05\00:12:54.63
when the pastors'
wives get together
00:12:54.66\00:12:56.13
but then they disperse.
00:12:56.16\00:12:57.53
And who's there to help me learn
00:12:57.56\00:12:59.29
how to be in this role
00:12:59.32\00:13:01.45
and how to be able to
accept the responsibilities.
00:13:01.48\00:13:04.09
Right because there's no class -
00:13:04.12\00:13:05.61
There is no class
- To be a first lady.
00:13:05.64\00:13:07.07
Right. There is no class to -
00:13:07.10\00:13:08.54
They need to offer that
at the seminary or something.
00:13:08.57\00:13:10.46
I think so, I think you have
such an influence, you should...
00:13:10.49\00:13:13.03
Do something about that.
00:13:13.06\00:13:14.51
We need a class at the seminary,
00:13:14.54\00:13:16.57
how to prepare the
pastors' wives for this role.
00:13:16.60\00:13:20.23
It is very
important. It's critical.
00:13:20.26\00:13:22.13
But once again we're
talking about the more that
00:13:22.16\00:13:27.63
you elevated, the
more responsibilities,
00:13:27.66\00:13:31.03
the more in the
limelight you became
00:13:31.06\00:13:33.57
and then became more
and more uncomfortable.
00:13:33.60\00:13:36.87
Kim brought up a point that,
00:13:36.90\00:13:38.57
you know, you being the
pastor and you helping families,
00:13:38.60\00:13:44.22
how did you deal
with the fact that
00:13:44.25\00:13:46.28
you were going through
this transition yourself,
00:13:46.31\00:13:49.18
and whereas other
families probably came to you
00:13:49.21\00:13:52.57
to help them eliminate that?
00:13:52.60\00:13:56.02
Well, it was tough.
00:13:56.05\00:13:57.17
And at one point in time
00:13:57.20\00:13:59.18
I didn't want to
offer anybody any help
00:13:59.21\00:14:00.88
because I didn't feel as though,
00:14:00.91\00:14:03.79
you know what can
I say now, you know?
00:14:03.82\00:14:06.85
And so I talked to a prominent
minister in Detroit area,
00:14:06.88\00:14:10.13
and he said this somewhat thing.
00:14:10.16\00:14:11.78
He said, "A barber
still needs his haircut,
00:14:11.81\00:14:15.52
a man who get shoes shine still
need to get his shoes shine,
00:14:15.55\00:14:20.03
a car seller
still need to buy a car
00:14:20.06\00:14:22.43
and what you're
simply standing there,
00:14:22.46\00:14:23.84
even though you
are going through this,
00:14:23.87\00:14:25.47
you still can add
help to someone else."
00:14:25.50\00:14:28.05
So what I've done now,
I've kind of used this,
00:14:28.08\00:14:30.82
what I'm going
through to help others
00:14:30.85\00:14:33.15
as a preventative measure.
00:14:33.18\00:14:34.78
How does it make you
feel that you're at this point
00:14:34.81\00:14:37.51
where now you're using this
00:14:37.54\00:14:40.50
because you present a workshop
00:14:40.53\00:14:44.90
for the family life retrieval
in Lake Region Conference.
00:14:44.93\00:14:48.31
And the reviews
were outstanding.
00:14:48.34\00:14:50.90
Praise the Lord.
00:14:50.93\00:14:51.96
And basically
because you were honest about
00:14:51.99\00:14:54.17
what had transpired.
00:14:54.20\00:14:56.61
And so I mean how did you feel
when it came to a point that
00:14:56.64\00:15:04.06
you know this is
me going through this.
00:15:04.09\00:15:06.51
You know what I'm saying.
00:15:06.54\00:15:07.71
It must have hit
you like a ton of bricks
00:15:07.74\00:15:10.12
because like you say, it
came from the blind side.
00:15:10.15\00:15:13.52
So what was going
on through you mind?
00:15:13.55\00:15:15.44
Well, initially
I was embarrassed.
00:15:15.47\00:15:18.04
Because the Lord
had used me to help save
00:15:18.07\00:15:20.52
so many marriages
and then here I am
00:15:20.55\00:15:23.41
on the verge of
losing mine and lost mine.
00:15:23.44\00:15:26.57
So I was very embarrassed.
Didn't want to talk about it.
00:15:26.60\00:15:29.04
Try to avoid it.
Didn't want to deal with it.
00:15:29.07\00:15:31.19
And eventually, the Lord
had to bring me to a point
00:15:31.22\00:15:34.20
and say, "This is just a way.
00:15:34.23\00:15:35.80
It's the way it is right now.
00:15:35.83\00:15:37.79
I need you to accept
it and trust my leading."
00:15:37.82\00:15:41.02
So when I became
comfortable with that,
00:15:41.05\00:15:42.95
I decided then, well, I
need to, I need to share this.
00:15:42.98\00:15:45.73
And I was
thinking about something.
00:15:45.76\00:15:47.44
You know my first year at Burns,
00:15:47.47\00:15:49.14
the Singles
Ministry asked me to preach.
00:15:49.17\00:15:51.46
And so I'm trying to figure out
00:15:51.49\00:15:53.04
why are you asking
the married man to preach.
00:15:53.07\00:15:57.27
And so now I guess
the Lord is preparing me -
00:15:57.30\00:16:01.99
That's right.
00:16:02.02\00:16:03.09
It was called
single gifted and blessed.
00:16:03.12\00:16:05.66
And so as I reflect back,
you know people can see me
00:16:05.69\00:16:10.53
and say well, if
the pastor can make it,
00:16:10.56\00:16:14.29
not that I'm you know
a shiny star or anything,
00:16:14.32\00:16:17.67
but if he can make it in
front of all these people
00:16:17.70\00:16:20.33
then there's hope for me.
00:16:20.36\00:16:21.74
That's the best I
can get out of it.
00:16:21.77\00:16:23.18
You're taking
time to purge yourself
00:16:23.21\00:16:25.66
because I know being a
single man in the church
00:16:25.69\00:16:28.80
and the
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
00:16:28.83\00:16:30.64
there are situations
that come up - women.
00:16:30.67\00:16:33.48
How are you handling that now?
00:16:33.51\00:16:36.61
Well, here's the thing.
00:16:36.64\00:16:38.04
Anybody who approaches me,
I let my heart to heal first.
00:16:38.07\00:16:42.37
You know my
children are important,
00:16:42.40\00:16:44.87
they have to accept.
00:16:44.90\00:16:46.21
My children and my
children are at the point,
00:16:46.24\00:16:48.19
where they are ready to
see daddy with anybody else.
00:16:48.22\00:16:51.71
And so my focal point
00:16:51.74\00:16:53.11
is basically my
children and ministry.
00:16:53.14\00:16:56.84
And so you know and then,
there's a gentleman at church,
00:16:56.87\00:16:59.84
he stays with me,
keeps me protected,
00:16:59.87\00:17:02.60
keeps his eyes on me.
00:17:02.63\00:17:04.25
And you know because
people want to be married
00:17:04.28\00:17:08.11
and they think,
well he is single now,
00:17:08.14\00:17:10.73
he is available,
he is a preacher,
00:17:10.76\00:17:12.61
blah, blah, blah, blah whatever.
00:17:12.64\00:17:14.48
And so my focal point is
really just being the healer.
00:17:14.51\00:17:17.68
Did you ever think about
00:17:17.71\00:17:18.75
during this
process to leave pastoring?
00:17:18.78\00:17:22.99
I did, initially I
did because at this point
00:17:23.02\00:17:26.88
I felt I'm not worthy
00:17:26.91\00:17:28.60
and how do I
preach to individuals.
00:17:28.63\00:17:31.71
And here I am broken myself.
And so I wanted to leave.
00:17:31.74\00:17:36.75
Let me ask you this,
I mean your background
00:17:36.78\00:17:40.29
is from the streets
of Chicago you know.
00:17:40.32\00:17:44.66
Okay, and as thinking
about being a Black Panther
00:17:44.69\00:17:49.91
that's where, who's
the one at the headquarters
00:17:49.94\00:17:52.62
so, the Black
Panther is that correct?
00:17:52.65\00:17:54.56
Black Muslim. Oh, black Muslims.
00:17:54.59\00:17:56.66
And Black Panther.
And Black Panthers.
00:17:56.69\00:17:58.84
You know so did you
have a response to the point
00:17:58.87\00:18:02.38
where how dares you take
advantage of me like this?
00:18:02.41\00:18:06.17
The anger is
what I'm looking at.
00:18:06.20\00:18:07.78
Did you have that anger
where you went to retaliate?
00:18:07.81\00:18:11.72
Well, not necessarily
retaliate, you feel used,
00:18:11.75\00:18:15.06
you know, because you've put
00:18:15.09\00:18:16.31
in all this
time, energy, emotion
00:18:16.34\00:18:20.45
and you feel
trampled upon, you feel used.
00:18:20.48\00:18:23.30
But you know
that's love you know.
00:18:23.33\00:18:25.40
And, you know, you
think about Christ same way.
00:18:25.43\00:18:28.16
He went to many
towns to heal folk,
00:18:28.19\00:18:30.19
folks still didn't follow Him.
00:18:30.22\00:18:32.03
And so I care to -
00:18:32.06\00:18:33.22
Wait a minute, wait a
minute, you mean to tell me
00:18:33.25\00:18:35.48
you didn't want
to beat up nobody.
00:18:35.51\00:18:37.45
No, I mean I don't want to,
00:18:37.48\00:18:39.35
no, I don't want to
be admitting to that.
00:18:39.38\00:18:41.10
Was I angry? Of course.
00:18:41.13\00:18:43.20
But for me violence wasn't going
00:18:43.23\00:18:45.66
to get me anywhere you know.
00:18:45.69\00:18:47.41
And so you know I
was angry with the Lord.
00:18:47.44\00:18:51.80
I can't hit Him, I can swing,
00:18:51.83\00:18:54.03
but not going to
make any connection.
00:18:54.06\00:18:56.63
And so and then at the same time
00:18:56.66\00:18:57.94
my children are watching me.
00:18:57.97\00:18:59.85
So I have to
maintain a level of integrity.
00:18:59.88\00:19:02.99
And so when I'm about by myself,
00:19:03.02\00:19:05.47
did I want to hit
the bed, I did in prayer.
00:19:05.50\00:19:08.03
You know did I express myself?
00:19:08.06\00:19:09.42
Not necessarily in
a volatile, aggressive
00:19:09.45\00:19:13.22
and where I'm cursing?
00:19:13.25\00:19:14.45
No, but I am
asking the Lord why?
00:19:14.48\00:19:16.72
Did you do a lot of crying?
00:19:16.75\00:19:18.50
I cried all the time. Did you?
00:19:18.53\00:19:20.13
In the pulpit, at home,
00:19:20.16\00:19:22.39
listening to
music, cry, cry, cry.
00:19:22.42\00:19:25.29
I was like
Jeremiah, the weeping prophet.
00:19:25.32\00:19:26.79
The weeping prophet.
00:19:26.82\00:19:27.87
And so it has got to a point
00:19:27.90\00:19:29.52
I didn't cried
anymore, I've accepted.
00:19:29.55\00:19:31.68
And I think because I was going
00:19:31.71\00:19:33.19
through those stages of
grief, you know I was in denial.
00:19:33.22\00:19:36.05
Did you think she was going
00:19:36.08\00:19:37.11
to change her
mind in few months,
00:19:37.14\00:19:39.05
perhaps she is
going to comeback?
00:19:39.08\00:19:40.53
I did, and
everybody was telling me that.
00:19:40.56\00:19:42.08
Oh, she's just trying
to get your attention.
00:19:42.11\00:19:44.48
I am like no I don't
think so 'cause in my mind,
00:19:44.51\00:19:47.44
I am like, it's a possibility,
but it didn't happen.
00:19:47.47\00:19:51.30
Well, you maintain your
composer really well you know.
00:19:51.33\00:19:55.78
And let's talk
about the counseling?
00:19:55.81\00:19:59.42
You know and what
it's been doing for you?
00:19:59.45\00:20:04.46
It's been a challenge.
00:20:04.49\00:20:05.91
You know, it's allowed
me to deal with some things
00:20:05.94\00:20:09.59
that ordinarily
I don't talk about.
00:20:09.62\00:20:11.23
It allows me to be
in a close setting,
00:20:11.26\00:20:14.28
where I can be myself and
express however they feel.
00:20:14.31\00:20:18.76
And to address things
that I haven't addressed before
00:20:18.79\00:20:22.25
because I've them baggage
00:20:22.28\00:20:23.95
that I've carried
into the relationship
00:20:23.98\00:20:26.79
that I didn't
know how to deposit,
00:20:26.82\00:20:28.21
and so or get rid of.
00:20:28.24\00:20:30.18
And so, it's been
a great help to me,
00:20:30.21\00:20:33.60
because it's
making me see things that,
00:20:33.63\00:20:36.01
you know, you don't
want anyone want to see.
00:20:36.04\00:20:38.08
And when those things happen,
it makes you a better person.
00:20:38.11\00:20:41.80
I don't feel as
aggressive as I did,
00:20:41.83\00:20:44.03
I don't feel as angry as I did,
00:20:44.06\00:20:45.54
I don't feel as sad as
I used to or as lonely.
00:20:45.57\00:20:49.32
You know I had a hard
time sleeping in my bed
00:20:49.35\00:20:51.37
because I've been used
to sleeping next to someone.
00:20:51.40\00:20:53.61
So it's helping me cope
00:20:53.64\00:20:55.30
but not only cope
but to go, to move on.
00:20:55.33\00:20:58.52
Why didn't you
leave the ministry?
00:20:58.55\00:21:01.06
Lord wouldn't let
me, as plain as that.
00:21:01.09\00:21:04.43
I tried-
00:21:04.46\00:21:05.56
He is a free will God.
00:21:05.59\00:21:06.79
He is but He also
will close certain doors
00:21:06.82\00:21:11.59
because I, you know, when I--,
00:21:11.62\00:21:13.73
before I became
Seventh-day Adventist,
00:21:13.76\00:21:16.46
I wanted to be a lawyer.
00:21:16.49\00:21:17.79
I was on my way
to Brown University.
00:21:17.82\00:21:20.00
And, you know, we
had our first daughter
00:21:20.03\00:21:22.51
so you know, stay close to home.
00:21:22.54\00:21:24.86
And I never
pursuit being a lawyer,
00:21:24.89\00:21:26.99
instead I went
to criminal justice,
00:21:27.02\00:21:29.05
same kind of path.
00:21:29.08\00:21:30.61
But then when these
things start happening,
00:21:30.64\00:21:32.92
I took a trip down to Detroit.
00:21:32.95\00:21:35.53
And they have
external law program.
00:21:35.56\00:21:38.27
Met with the
counselor, got my packet,
00:21:38.30\00:21:40.98
got the Elsa was
going to study for the test,
00:21:41.01\00:21:43.89
the application and the books
00:21:43.92\00:21:45.15
are on my couch
for three months.
00:21:45.18\00:21:46.89
Every time I walked near it,
00:21:46.92\00:21:48.36
it's like it was some
blocking me from grabbing it.
00:21:48.39\00:21:51.19
And so after certain
amount of time threw it away.
00:21:51.22\00:21:53.81
And then my support
group really helped me
00:21:53.84\00:21:56.76
to stay focused,
and some of them,
00:21:56.79\00:21:59.91
majority of them were
like, well, you can't leave.
00:21:59.94\00:22:01.82
Even individuals who
are not in the church
00:22:01.85\00:22:03.78
who are friends of
mine, they said, look,
00:22:03.81\00:22:05.53
you can't leave ministry.
00:22:05.56\00:22:07.29
And so I tried you know,
said, "Lord I'm done with this.
00:22:07.32\00:22:10.40
How can I speak?
How can I tell people?"
00:22:10.43\00:22:13.29
And so He
wouldn't let that happen.
00:22:13.32\00:22:15.37
So do you know why today
00:22:15.40\00:22:18.16
that your wife left
you and divorced you?
00:22:18.19\00:22:20.26
Do you know why?
00:22:20.29\00:22:21.46
Do I know why? Do
you have that answer?
00:22:21.49\00:22:23.26
I know what she told
me. You know what she told.
00:22:23.29\00:22:25.06
That's all I can do about it.
00:22:25.09\00:22:26.67
And then when you preach that
00:22:26.70\00:22:27.85
and we don't want
to affront upon that
00:22:27.88\00:22:29.11
but when you preach
00:22:29.14\00:22:31.83
and you share this
message with your congregation,
00:22:31.86\00:22:35.33
your child, your
youngest child is sitting
00:22:35.36\00:22:37.49
in the congregation,
what happens to him?
00:22:37.52\00:22:40.47
Well, I don't
talk about it often
00:22:40.50\00:22:42.10
but it breaks him
down, you know, emotionally.
00:22:42.13\00:22:45.20
He starts crying
because he starts thinking
00:22:45.23\00:22:46.91
about the times
mommy and daddy at church,
00:22:46.94\00:22:49.74
the seating arrangement,
00:22:49.77\00:22:50.86
you know, where
they used to sit at.
00:22:50.89\00:22:52.30
So it brings back
memories for them.
00:22:52.33\00:22:54.31
And so I try
not to talk about it
00:22:54.34\00:22:57.05
especially when
they are present.
00:22:57.08\00:22:58.63
So do you have the children
00:22:58.66\00:23:02.37
the majority of
time or custody of them?
00:23:02.40\00:23:04.36
Split half an hour.
00:23:04.39\00:23:05.47
Okay, okay.
00:23:05.50\00:23:06.88
The 12 year old and
so we share custody.
00:23:06.91\00:23:09.98
Okay, you know-
00:23:10.01\00:23:11.29
And that's very
important for you
00:23:11.32\00:23:12.81
to have his mother in his life.
00:23:12.84\00:23:14.22
Yes, yes just because
his parents didn't make it
00:23:14.25\00:23:16.98
from a marital standpoint
00:23:17.01\00:23:19.33
don't mean that you know he
has to have one or the other.
00:23:19.36\00:23:21.75
He still needs both of us.
00:23:21.78\00:23:23.58
That's a good point
that you've brought up,
00:23:23.61\00:23:25.00
and it probably
needs to be elaborated on.
00:23:25.03\00:23:28.30
One of the things
that seems to be a problem
00:23:28.33\00:23:30.70
when people are
going through separation
00:23:30.73\00:23:32.26
and divorce is the fact that
we're talking about the anger,
00:23:32.29\00:23:36.09
you know, and
we're talking about
00:23:36.12\00:23:37.72
the inability to
really work together.
00:23:37.75\00:23:40.81
That wasn't difficult for you.
00:23:40.84\00:23:42.43
No, actually the lawyer
said this was the best divorce
00:23:42.46\00:23:46.10
that they've ever seen.
00:23:46.13\00:23:47.51
Wasn't any argument,
we determined the custody,
00:23:47.54\00:23:51.41
we determined child support,
00:23:51.44\00:23:53.67
we basically
determined everything.
00:23:53.70\00:23:55.37
And I told and I said,
00:23:55.40\00:23:56.68
"I don't want
this thing to be ugly
00:23:56.71\00:23:58.98
because God's name
still needs to be vindicated
00:23:59.01\00:24:01.85
in front of everybody."
00:24:01.88\00:24:03.24
And I said, "Just because
we didn't make it as a couple
00:24:03.27\00:24:06.30
don't mean we can't make it
00:24:06.33\00:24:07.36
as friends, as
parent most of all."
00:24:07.39\00:24:09.57
And so somebody has
to take the high role,
00:24:09.60\00:24:11.97
and I decided to
take the high role,
00:24:12.00\00:24:13.22
even though I'm the
one who was served papers.
00:24:13.25\00:24:16.22
So- So are you friends?
00:24:16.25\00:24:18.89
Yeah we are, require to.
00:24:18.92\00:24:22.36
You're trying to be friends.
00:24:22.39\00:24:23.93
Well, you know, I don't
think the friendship ever left.
00:24:23.96\00:24:26.45
I think because
of the situation,
00:24:26.48\00:24:30.07
we're not as
close as we used to be
00:24:30.10\00:24:32.70
because many times
people tend to think that
00:24:32.73\00:24:35.83
you'll talk about it and
constantly being reminded.
00:24:35.86\00:24:38.43
So you need space.
00:24:38.46\00:24:40.15
So you know we're laughing,
joking, all that good stuff.
00:24:40.18\00:24:43.45
Let me ask you a question,
00:24:43.48\00:24:44.53
you know from a
woman's perspective,
00:24:44.56\00:24:46.09
if she says to you,
if God opened the door
00:24:46.12\00:24:49.72
for you to be reconciled.
00:24:49.75\00:24:52.27
You know is
your heart at a place
00:24:52.30\00:24:53.77
where you would say,
I'll be obedient to you Lord.
00:24:53.80\00:24:57.09
Of course.
00:24:57.12\00:24:58.51
It is because I don't
know what the Lord may do.
00:24:58.54\00:25:01.63
You know He may need us
00:25:01.66\00:25:02.91
to separate to
grow to come back.
00:25:02.94\00:25:05.39
You know I don't
know Lord's plan.
00:25:05.42\00:25:07.15
And so I always
have to leave it open.
00:25:07.18\00:25:10.75
What would you, you know,
00:25:10.78\00:25:12.21
we have a couple
of minutes pastor.
00:25:12.24\00:25:14.95
What would you tell
somebody going through
00:25:14.98\00:25:16.30
what you're
going through right now
00:25:16.33\00:25:17.61
or contemplating divorce?
00:25:17.64\00:25:20.09
Talk to our viewers.
00:25:20.12\00:25:21.81
Now I mean we're
trying to send a question
00:25:21.84\00:25:22.95
to a person getting
divorced or being divorced.
00:25:22.98\00:25:24.98
Going through just going through
00:25:25.01\00:25:26.96
or they've been contemplating,
what would you say?
00:25:26.99\00:25:29.42
I think they should
really think about it.
00:25:29.45\00:25:31.64
I think they should
consult as many people
00:25:31.67\00:25:34.43
who are unbiased to
their situation as possible
00:25:34.46\00:25:37.38
and try to work that thing out,
because it's collateral damage.
00:25:37.41\00:25:41.08
You know it doesn't
just affect one person.
00:25:41.11\00:25:44.00
It affects the circle
that we come in contact with.
00:25:44.03\00:25:48.50
And I think anything
can be reconciled unless,
00:25:48.53\00:25:53.22
unless there's no hope.
00:25:53.25\00:25:54.93
But I believe that
anything can be reconciled.
00:25:54.96\00:25:58.67
And if you do go through it,
00:25:58.70\00:26:00.17
you need a strong support group
00:26:00.20\00:26:01.84
and your faith
needs to be strong.
00:26:01.87\00:26:04.56
And you need
somebody to be there for you.
00:26:04.59\00:26:06.28
Has your faith
increased? Has it grown?
00:26:06.31\00:26:09.12
It's growing
back. It's growing back.
00:26:09.15\00:26:11.48
That's a good answer.
00:26:11.51\00:26:12.58
You know because people
need to know sometimes that
00:26:12.61\00:26:17.38
even though you may have
a particular status in life
00:26:17.41\00:26:22.54
that you still go through
00:26:22.57\00:26:23.94
and you still
experience the same pain.
00:26:23.97\00:26:26.43
You know so
people need to know that,
00:26:26.46\00:26:29.14
that's really
good, it's admirable.
00:26:29.17\00:26:31.17
As people think pastors
have a superman on their chest
00:26:31.20\00:26:35.00
and so I tell, I'm
clark kent right now.
00:26:35.03\00:26:37.28
You was clark kent.
00:26:37.31\00:26:39.30
I'm clark kent, on
the side I'd be superman
00:26:39.33\00:26:41.73
but I'm clark
kent six days a week.
00:26:41.76\00:26:44.41
And it's tough,
you know, for pastors
00:26:44.44\00:26:46.31
because number one it's
already a lonely position,
00:26:46.34\00:26:49.51
you know, and we
don't have the support
00:26:49.54\00:26:51.72
and if you come from
dysfunctional family,
00:26:51.75\00:26:53.74
it makes it even worse.
00:26:53.77\00:26:55.40
And so you have to
find yourself surrounded
00:26:55.43\00:26:58.88
by the right group of folk
00:26:58.91\00:27:00.70
who has the best
interest for you.
00:27:00.73\00:27:03.68
How did you and their mother
break the news to the children?
00:27:03.71\00:27:08.42
How did you
break the news to them?
00:27:08.45\00:27:09.49
What we decided is to
call the family meeting
00:27:09.52\00:27:12.95
and when we called the meeting,
00:27:12.98\00:27:15.13
she told them
what she was doing.
00:27:15.16\00:27:18.17
And so we broke it that way.
00:27:18.20\00:27:19.69
So then they
can ask any question
00:27:19.72\00:27:21.60
she wanted,
they won't excuse me.
00:27:21.63\00:27:23.85
And that's what happened.
00:27:23.88\00:27:24.93
And so I stood at their support.
00:27:24.96\00:27:27.28
And so, you know, she
said I'm divorcing your daddy
00:27:27.31\00:27:31.75
and here's the reason why.
00:27:31.78\00:27:34.19
And then they
quit asking questions
00:27:34.22\00:27:36.80
and of course began crying
and things of that nature.
00:27:36.83\00:27:40.59
But we did it together.
00:27:40.62\00:27:42.20
It's still painful for you.
00:27:42.23\00:27:44.21
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:27:44.24\00:27:45.71
No, no one wants to
see their children hurt.
00:27:45.74\00:27:48.19
And I think it's even
harder when we're around people
00:27:48.22\00:27:51.63
and they're married
couples and they see that.
00:27:51.66\00:27:54.96
But you know the other thing
is when they see us together
00:27:54.99\00:27:57.25
and they see us joking around,
00:27:57.28\00:27:58.58
my youngest kid extremely
excited about that. So--
00:27:58.61\00:28:02.85
It's like the hope--
00:28:02.88\00:28:04.16
Yes, it's right. It is--
00:28:04.19\00:28:05.63
Well, keep hope alive.
00:28:05.66\00:28:07.14
Keep hope alive.
00:28:07.17\00:28:08.29
Well listen Pastor Jackson,
00:28:08.32\00:28:09.51
we want to thank you so much
for being with us here today
00:28:09.54\00:28:11.39
and being so transparent.
00:28:11.42\00:28:13.18
May God continues to bless you
00:28:13.21\00:28:14.38
in your
ministry and your family.
00:28:14.41\00:28:16.45
I'm Dr. Kim
Logan-Nowlin. I'm Arthur Nowlin.
00:28:16.48\00:28:18.98
Thank you for
joining us on Making It Work.
00:28:19.01\00:28:20.82
God bless.
00:28:20.85\00:28:21.89