Participants: Arthur Nowlin (Host), Dr Kim Logan-Nowlin (Host), Anisa L. Jones
Series Code: MIW
Program Code: MIW000034
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00:01 Hi, I'm Dr. Kim Logan Nowlin. I'm Arthur Nowlin.
00:03 And welcome to Making it Work. 00:37 Triumphant Over Adversity, that's the topic today. 00:42 Arthur, what kind of adversities 00:44 have you experienced? 00:45 You know, just give me one as a child. 00:47 I have a-- I had a major adversity at age 7, 00:51 which was the loss of my mother, you know. 00:54 And I had adversity, you know, 00:56 when my parents were divorced at the age of 12. 00:59 But I don't think that 01:01 you and I have ever had to experience a birth defect. 01:05 And a challenge of being born 01:08 with your hands not quite looking 01:10 as other children and losing a foot. 01:15 Well, today our guest is Miss Anisa Jones, 01:18 and she is here to tell her testimony, 01:21 and how she has overcome adversity. 01:23 Major adversity, triumphant. God bless you, sweetie. 01:27 God bless you, too, Dr. Kim. 01:29 I love you. I love you, too. 01:31 I remember when you were born. My goodness, my goodness. 01:34 That's right, that's right. And how old are you? 01:40 Oh, my goodness, well, you look wonderful, you know. 01:43 When I look at you, you know, completing college, 01:47 you were crowned Miss Oakwood at the UNCF pageant. 01:51 Is that right? Yes, she was. 01:56 beautiful voice and I hope I get a little sample tonight 02:00 and serving as a elder of you church, praise team. 02:04 Really, that's great. 02:05 I mean, you know, being a loving daughter, 02:08 a sibling, you know. 02:09 How have you come to say, 02:12 "I'm not going to allow this to stop me?" 02:15 Why don't you tell us your story 02:17 from when you were born? 02:18 Well, let's see, when I was born 02:24 there was a difficulty with amniotic bands, 02:28 and that created various differences 02:33 and deformities with my hands 02:35 and that actually limited mobility 02:38 where I had to have surgery. 02:39 They were similar, they were together, 02:41 like this, the fingers were together. 02:42 All together. 02:43 Yeah, and so I had to have surgery 02:45 to be able to allow them to be mobile. 02:50 It also created a situation 02:54 where one foot was not quite developed like 02:58 the other one was and one leg was shorter than the other. 03:02 So at-- 03:05 early on I had to have multiple surgeries 03:07 to have my hands mobile. 03:11 And at the age of 7, if I recall correctly, 03:16 I had to have-- opted to have a surgery 03:20 where they amputated the foot on my right leg 03:24 to allow me to be able to wear a prosthesis as I grew. 03:30 And that will create more even mobility 03:32 in walking versus wearing leverage shoes or braces. 03:37 Now this was your decision at seven? 03:41 It was me-- it was a decision we, 03:44 of course, discussed as a family, 03:46 but I can clearly remember my mother coming to me, 03:49 you know, wanting to know, well, here it is. 03:53 You know, this is what's going on. 03:55 And there's a decision that has to be made 03:57 and, you know, I don't think she would, 04:00 you know, just leave me alone to make the decision, 04:03 but the choice was mine to make because it's a lifetime. 04:08 It's a life changing option to take. 04:12 I heard earlier where we were talking that 04:16 you were thinking, you know, 04:18 did you make the right decision or not. 04:19 Yeah. Tell us about that. 04:22 Oh, wow, I remember working with the current prosthetist 04:29 that I had and asking him, 04:31 I said, you know, for the longest I wondered 04:34 whether I made the right choice. 04:35 And he said, "Oh, yeah, 04:38 this was the best of the options 04:40 to keep you as ambulatory as possible. 04:44 And just to allow you to have as much freedom as you could. 04:49 And I wish that I could have reached that a long time ago, 04:54 but I'm thankful that he was able to help take 04:58 that provided relief, I should say. 05:00 When you say, "reach that," you mean, 05:02 come to that peace with yourself? 05:04 Yes, yes. 05:05 So right now you're at peace with it? 05:07 Well, yeah. A lot more than before. 05:10 I mean, you do come to some different revelations 05:15 and epiphanies regardless, 05:17 but that particular peace sometimes, 05:19 you know, as far as wondering 05:21 what would it-- what would have happened if. 05:24 That I think, yes, he did help me. 05:26 Well, let me ask you, what has been some of the difficulties, 05:29 not just challenges, but difficulties? 05:31 Were you home schooled? 05:34 Initially, my mom did stay home with us, 05:40 and then I attended Davidson. 05:43 Davidson. 05:44 Davidson Elementary. Yeah. 05:46 And I distinctly remember in kindergarten, 05:51 my mom had us-- had me learn a song, 05:55 how do you spell relief, J-E-S-U-S. 06:00 So I mean she did do a lot of reading, 06:05 you know, when we were younger, 06:07 to the point that she couldn't tell 06:09 whether I was actually picking up the words, 06:12 if I had memorized the page. 06:14 Because she was reading so much I knew exactly, 06:17 I could read the book and know exactly 06:19 when to flip and turn, you know, so... 06:22 So, okay, now as far as you were seven, 06:26 you know, learning to dress yourself, 06:27 learning to, you know, take care of your hygiene, 06:31 I mean, you know, just everyday things, 06:35 playing jump-rope, playing jacks, you know, 06:37 did the children tease you at school? 06:39 Or were they kind? 06:40 You know, they were kind actually. 06:42 I think being in a Christian environment 06:44 and having a large family support 06:48 system was very helpful. 06:51 I look back at that and I realize 06:53 I wasn't treated any differently. 06:57 No special allowances were made. 06:59 You were just one of the children 07:01 in that classroom. 07:02 On of the children in that classroom. 07:05 To the point I remember one particular teacher 07:07 who was one of my favorites, Mr. Jessup. 07:11 And I remember-- 07:12 I mean he would find something to, 07:15 you know, be teasing or have special interaction 07:19 with all of his students. 07:21 But I remember I used to make curly fries. 07:24 And it was, you know, no big deal, 07:26 but, you know, we had to solve the problem in math whatever. 07:28 And so, you know, he would kind of tease me like that, 07:31 but that was just his way of finding a way 07:33 to have rapport with all of his students, 07:35 and I was no different than anyone else. 07:37 Oh, I see. 07:38 Now you went through Davidson, and went on to-- 07:42 What did you attend after Davidson Academy? 07:45 I went to Chenal's Elementary in the fourth grade. 07:52 Fifth. 07:54 Great, so did you go to Seventh-day Adventist school 07:56 and Detroit public schools. 07:59 That was-- Yes, it was a middle school in Southfield. 08:02 All right, and then that took you on to high school. 08:04 And where did you attend high school? 08:07 High school was Detroit. 08:10 Okay. 08:11 For a portion, and then went-- 08:13 graduated from Oak Park High School, public school. 08:16 Okay, and then you made a decision 08:18 to attend Oakwood University in Huntsville, Alabama. 08:21 Correct. All right. 08:22 Was that something that you always wanted to do? 08:25 Attend Oakwood? 08:27 You wanted to go to Oakwood? 08:28 I have to be honest, 08:31 there was a struggle at one point. 08:33 And I remember my mother finally just saying, 08:35 "Okay, just try it for one year." 08:40 I'm telling you, you go for one year, you're hooked. 08:43 That's it, and that's all. You are hooked. 08:46 Yes. 08:48 So that was a good thing for you then? 08:50 It was a good thing. Yeah. 08:52 Then you became, I mean, in your junior 08:54 or senior year, Miss Oakwood for the UNCF, 08:57 United Negro College Fund. 08:59 Was that your junior or senior year? 09:00 I didn't know that. 09:01 That was senior year. 09:02 Senior year. That's amazing. 09:04 That was major, we were so proud here at Detroit. 09:06 That was great, you know. How did you feel? 09:10 Oh, it was a little overwhelming at first. 09:14 But happy-- I was thankful. 09:20 Because I remember just praying about some things 09:24 and I remember asking, 09:31 just asking God for some things and He showed up. 09:36 You know, not that He hadn't been in my life 09:37 because He had been, but that particular thing 09:40 He just chose to say, "Here. 09:43 I'm just gonna bless you with that." 09:46 So you have adapted to, you know, cooking. 09:49 You know, is it difficult when you cook, you know, 09:52 or you're able to just get in there 09:53 and do like anyone else? 09:55 Four burners no problem. 09:56 Are you a good cook? Are you a good cook? 09:59 I am a good cook. People enjoy my food. 10:02 Amen, praise the Lord. 10:04 That's great. 10:05 Now as far as your work, 10:07 you earned your bachelors degree in what area? 10:09 In business administration. 10:11 Okay, and now you're currently working 10:13 on your Masters degree in the same field or human... 10:16 In human services with the emphasis 10:18 in nonprofit management. 10:19 Okay, all right. Now you have a beautiful voice. 10:23 God has blessed you, you know. 10:25 And when people call on you to serve, 10:30 have you ever said no? 10:33 Have you ever just said, "I can't do it? 10:36 I'm tired today." 10:37 Definitely not because I was tired. 10:40 I can't recall where I have-- 10:43 I'm sure it's probably one or two occasions. 10:45 I mean, we all-- we think it, you know. 10:48 Now you served as a elder of the church. 10:51 I'm sure that was very interesting. 10:53 Tell us about that. 10:56 Because you're one of the first females elected 10:59 as serving elder at your local church. 11:03 I look at that as definitely training ground 11:09 for wherever the Lord wants to continue to take me, 11:12 whether that's going back into that 11:14 particular office or on to other things. 11:19 I can definitely say that there have been some-- 11:26 it's taught me greater patience. 11:28 And given me even a greater 11:30 and broader scope of appreciation 11:35 for what everyone brings to the table. 11:38 For what everyone brings to the table, 11:40 regardless of age or background 11:43 and experience, everyone brings something. 11:45 Oh, yes. 11:47 And I can see where clearly 11:50 God had a hand in watching me there. 11:54 That's a excellent point. 11:58 You feel that and you see that, you know. 12:03 That's something that's special 12:04 because everybody can't feel it. 12:06 That discernment. 12:07 Yeah, you know, and for you to be patient enough 12:11 to allow God to do His work is really meaningful 12:15 because sometimes we want to hurry God up. 12:18 Oh, yes. Push God. 12:20 Now what about when you were-- 12:21 when you date, you know, 12:22 because I know you're single right now, you know. 12:25 I'm ready to cut my cake, but no hurry. 12:27 I'm not putting any pressure on you, you know. 12:30 But what do you say when you meet young men? 12:33 They say, you know, 12:34 "What's going on with your foot or your leg or your hands?" 12:36 Does it even come up in the conversation, you know? 12:39 How do you handle that? 12:41 It does sometimes. 12:42 I think it's-- I mean, it's more noticeable 12:44 if I have a skirt or something on. 12:47 But the, I guess, ironic thing is that 12:52 they're usually saying something to me of positivity. 12:56 Some things like, "Don't ever let anyone tell you 12:59 that you're not beautiful. 13:00 Don't ever let anyone--" 13:01 And I'm not asking for that, 13:02 or necessarily even thinking that in guys' eyes that I'm not 13:07 just that he always sensed that. 13:11 Well, you are. 13:12 You know, you're a very beautiful young lady. 13:14 You know, and God has truly blessed you. 13:18 Being a elder opens the door for a tremendous ministry. 13:25 Had you ever anticipated that you will be at this point, 13:29 being an elder of your church? 13:31 You know, the story that I have behind that briefly is that 13:36 I remember seeing a friend of mine, 13:39 a colleague from school, female, 13:42 serving at another church in Alabama in that capacity 13:47 and had a fleeting thought to myself, 13:49 never told anyone to say that, 13:52 "Hmm, that might be an interesting 13:54 capacity to make a difference." 13:56 Wow. 13:57 Never said it out loud, never told anyone. 14:00 Came back home to Detroit. 14:03 Came back home, was actually at a ladies day function 14:07 at City Temple, Seventh-day Adventist church. 14:11 And in the afternoon I felt impressed 14:15 to meet the speaker, I just had this urge. 14:17 I didn't know her, but I felt this unction 14:20 just to go and introduce myself. 14:22 And as I went to introduce myself 14:24 and reached out my hand, she said-- 14:27 I said, "Hi, my name is..." 14:28 She said, "I already know who you are." 14:31 And I said, "You do?" 14:33 And she said, "Yes, you are the one 14:35 they're going to make an elder." 14:39 Within months, weeks and months following that, 14:42 I mean, it still didn't click. 14:44 I said, "Okay." And we had a little chat. 14:46 And it still didn't totally click 14:47 until a few weeks or months following that 14:51 the pastor at the time that was serving at Barns, 14:54 came and indicated to me that 14:56 they were considering me for that position. 14:59 And by that time I was like, oh, 15:01 light bulb started to go off. 15:02 I started making connections. 15:03 You know, God was talking to me saying, 15:05 "Hello, do you see? 15:07 I'm trying to show you, 15:08 you know, where I want you to be." 15:09 And it was a challenge of some things that 15:11 God still wanted me to grow in. 15:15 And I learned that 15:17 sometimes God calls you to certain things. 15:19 Really, all the time God calls you 15:21 not just because of what you bring to the table, 15:23 but because of where He wants you to grow, 15:25 where He's asking you to expand 15:26 and just develop more of His character, 15:30 embrace more of who He is 15:33 and what He wants to do through you. 15:34 Are you looking forward to, 15:36 you know-- Just tell us your goals, 15:38 short term, long term. 15:40 Where do you see yourself? 15:42 I'm working on a CD, to put that out. 15:48 Yeah. 15:49 And so far the response to the music 15:52 that has been produced has been very positive and encouraging. 15:56 So I'm very excited and happy about that 15:59 and just glad that it will touch lives for Christ. 16:06 I look to finish school soon. 16:08 Okay. 16:10 No particular special someone at the moment. 16:13 No one at the moment. 16:14 You never know how that may change. 16:17 God has a way of flipping destiny, so you never know. 16:19 When you least expect it. 16:21 What about ministry, 16:24 you know, what does that really mean to you, 16:28 when we talk about ministry? 16:31 Practically meeting the need of the person, 16:35 whether that is, that could be something 16:38 as simple as an encouraging word 16:40 and a smile to making sure that they-- 16:43 you walk with them to get them upon their feet. 16:47 Whether that's giving them food, 16:49 giving them clothes, all the way 16:50 you're still talking about, 16:52 Christ is still ministering to them. 16:54 I had the opportunity to meet a lady at a store, 16:59 and while I was at the store, 17:02 she was talking with some of her other co-workers, 17:04 and I just happened to overhear a just bit of the conversation, 17:07 where she was explaining her emergency to make sure 17:12 that her son's insulin could be kept refrigerated. 17:15 And she didn't have a way, 17:17 and I happened to just be blessed 17:18 with a couple of things that will be able to help her. 17:21 So I went back home, got them, brought them back, 17:25 and she, you know-- that's just what we do. 17:28 That's what we do. 17:29 But she found that to be, you know, I guess, 17:34 and she didn't think anyone would be able to help her. 17:37 And, you know, I praised God that I was able to do that, 17:38 but the reason I tell the story is because even as I was-- 17:43 I have a text mailing list that 17:45 I send out messages through that. 17:46 As I receive them I pass them on. 17:48 So she's on that list, 17:49 and then I happened to see her in the store again another day. 17:52 And she mentioned that she'd been doing 17:54 her own research about Seventh-day Adventism. 17:57 Really? 17:58 And I tell you, she could leave her on the Bible. 18:01 Mercy. 18:02 She knew information, you know they don't. 18:05 You know, this is what she knew about the institutions 18:07 and different things that had been changed. 18:10 And how Sunday was changed, 18:12 you know, from Sabbath to Sundays. 18:14 So she talked to you about that? 18:15 She did, and she was interested. 18:17 She said to the point that she was interested 18:19 and not working anymore on Saturday. 18:24 Wanted to attend a Seventh-day Adventist church, 18:27 and so, you know, I'm trying to keep a calm face, 18:29 when inside I'm doing cartwheels, you know. 18:31 My mouth dropping open, that's right, 18:33 everything she said was totally true. 18:35 And I just-- 18:37 All I could do was just praise God 18:38 because you don't never know how doing something so simple-- 18:40 Simple can lead someone to Christ. 18:42 I know, Arthur said on another program, 18:46 if we can show or people can see Christ in us, 18:50 they'll be so intrigued about what is it, 18:53 you know, where do you worship? 18:55 What is that you have? 18:57 I want some of that. Can it rub off on me? 18:59 And so that's what she saw. 19:01 'Cause the smallest thing, you know, God can use anything 19:05 and anyone to bring someone to Christ 19:08 if we're willing and we're open. 19:10 And, sweetheart, that has been you all of your life, 19:13 you know, since a baby, always smiling. 19:15 I was your cradle roll teacher. 19:17 Were you? I was her cradle roll teacher. 19:19 I can see that. 19:20 Did you see that? Yeah, I can see that. 19:22 Cradle roll is the young program 19:24 we have in our church for the babies. 19:26 And we teach our Sabbath school nice songs, 19:29 and I taught her "Jesus loves me." 19:32 She can sing it better. 19:34 But she would come in, "Hi, Sister Logan." 19:39 And when she graduated on to kindergarten, I was so sad. 19:42 You were still there? Yes. 19:44 Okay. Are you kidding me? 19:46 I was one of those favorite cradle roll teachers. 19:49 And the thing about it, when you talk about people 19:50 influencing something very simple, 19:52 I can remember times when you would give 19:56 your testimony as far as your education. 19:59 And you would say, despite adversities 20:02 you might have faced, you would say, 20:04 first give honor to God. 20:05 Always honor to God. 20:06 And you'd say that without fail. 20:09 Giving all honor to God. 20:10 And that stuck with me, when you say that. 20:12 I remember though when Brother Nowlin 20:15 was the federation president. 20:18 And you were our speaker, and your dad came in from Ohio, 20:23 everyone was there. 20:25 We were so-- I mean you preached that word. 20:28 You gave a word. And it was truly-- 20:31 She was my first female speaker. 20:35 Wow. Yes, I came second. 20:37 Well, I was a back-up, girl. 20:39 I was a back-up, let me tell you. 20:41 His speaker got cancelled at the last minute, 20:44 and we are literally laying in bed asleep, 20:47 and he says, "Kim--" 20:48 I said, "Don't even think about it. 20:50 Don't think about it. I'm not." 20:52 "I need a speaker. I need a speaker." 20:53 I said, "No." 20:54 And then I had to leave 20:56 and go to our daughter's program in Ohio, 20:59 and some of the children went with me. 21:01 But I could not tell God no 21:03 and so-- I was your back-up. 21:05 And you couldn't tell me no either. 21:07 I couldn't tell the president no, you know. 21:10 How would I have been able to live with myself? 21:12 But I thoroughly appreciated 21:14 the way your family rallied around you and they still do. 21:18 Very supportive, you have a huge family, 21:20 the Jones family is huge, you know. 21:23 Now let me ask you this, what are some of the things, 21:26 you are young, you are in the church, 21:29 you are, you know, you are always dressed appropriately 21:32 as a young lady for God, you know. 21:35 And all the things that society 21:36 is sending messages out to us, "Dress this way." 21:40 You know, what can you say to young ladies today 21:42 and young men, you know, about how it's okay 21:46 to be covered up and still be beautiful. 21:50 Well, I think, one thing is about inner beauty, 21:53 that's the first thing-- 21:56 You know, there is-- 22:00 Even someone who is not necessarily churched 22:03 or saved will tell you that there is something about 22:09 a male or a female that has substance 22:11 and character to them that shines through. 22:14 Just the outer appearance is a facade. 22:18 There's nothing wrong with carrying yourself 22:20 in a polished way and, you know, putting 22:22 your best foot forward, 22:24 but if there's nothing going on in the inside 22:27 that's striving to grow, eh. 22:31 And you got to water it. Yeah. 22:33 If you don't water it, 22:34 and that's what happens I think to the-- 22:38 not just Seventh-day Adventist church 22:40 but the churches at large, they need to water, 22:44 they need to nurture, 22:46 that's one of your words, nurturing. 22:48 You know, and so that our people 22:50 and our youth can blossom. 22:52 And so that they can grow 22:53 and that's what happened to you, Anisa. 22:55 I think our leaders need to be patient, you know. 22:58 I mean we're dealing with some real trying times. 23:02 Young people are really, really invalid decision. 23:05 I think more now than ever before 23:07 because my rationalization for that is that 23:10 there's a information system out here. 23:13 We're talking about media, 23:15 that is really in so many directions that's pulling. 23:21 And people are readily going in to the emails, 23:26 going into Facebook, I mean not say Facebook 23:29 there's something wrong with it. 23:30 I'm on Facebook myself, 23:32 but we have to look at the material 23:35 that they're getting involved with. 23:37 We have to look at the fact, 23:38 you know, with the movies that come on in TV 23:42 and the ones that are given this build up 23:46 of how this is a extraordinary thing. 23:51 And, yeah, it's something that is really against 23:54 what Christians believe, 23:56 and that's a dilemma for most of us right now. 23:59 I think another aspect would be 24:02 when you talk about how to present yourself. 24:10 Well, two aspects come to mind, 24:11 one is I was just always taught, 24:14 you know, don't falsely advertise, don't. 24:17 So if that's not, you know, the life 24:19 that you want to purport 24:23 or if that's not the type of person 24:24 you want to attract, just don't dress like that. 24:27 But if I'm not supportive, 24:29 if I'm not-- 24:30 if I don't have the support system 24:32 or the awareness to recognize that, 24:35 you know, this may be something that's really unacceptable. 24:39 And I think a lot of our youth 24:42 are being influenced by what they see. 24:46 And unfortunately, they may not have that mentor 24:49 or may not have that support that 24:51 you had it with your family 24:53 to say this is something that's inappropriate. 24:56 And what make-- 24:57 That's interesting for you to say that 24:58 because one of the things that I tried to pass along 25:00 whenever I have the opportunity to work with young people 25:03 or just with anyone to say that, 25:07 it's okay to find-- it's okay to appreciate 25:10 what you have, just be careful how you wield your sword. 25:15 It's okay to have esteem, 25:18 as long as you know who you are esteemed in, 25:20 as long as you know who you belong to. 25:21 That's right. 25:22 And know who you represent, 25:24 and that person you're representing 25:26 has your best interest at heart. 25:28 You have more freedom than limitations. 25:30 And a lot of times I think, 25:32 youths tend to feel a sense of limitation. 25:35 And it's a sense of saying, 25:37 no, there's freedom in a certain way of operation, 25:41 you know, you avoid all this other mess. 25:45 And when people have a certain esteem, 25:48 you avoid a lot of problems. 25:51 You don't tend to find substitutes for a real issue. 25:56 Come on now. 25:57 That's a real issue to know that you are valuable, 26:00 to know your worth, to know that your daddy's girl 26:02 or, you know, you belong to someone 26:05 and that you are precious in their sight, 26:08 you know, whether that's your Heavenly Father 26:10 or your earthly, however that came about. 26:13 And to know that you are fearfully 26:16 and wonderfully made just the way that you are. 26:18 And we're now just talking to women 26:20 and young ladies, men and young men. 26:22 Absolutely. Exactly. 26:24 You are beautifully made in Jesus Christ. 26:26 And that's why God has to be your one factor. 26:30 God has to be first so that you do not make 26:33 other people your gods, things your god. 26:37 And I have to say, Anisa, 26:38 your mother, your grandmother-- 26:39 Oh, rest her soul, bless Sister Slaton. 26:42 You recently, you just lost 26:44 your grandfather, Brother Slaton. 26:46 You know, we loved him dearly, you know. 26:49 That was my buddy you know. 26:51 And he was such a wonderful person. 26:53 He loved Arthur and I. 26:55 He's always treated us with respect and kindness. 27:00 And that showed his character. 27:02 Oh, yes. 27:03 You know, I think one of the final notes 27:05 that I would like to make is the fact that 27:08 we need to have people like you, 27:11 you know, that's motivated, 27:13 that's there to extend themselves, 27:16 that's been through trials and tribulations, 27:18 but yet you still give honor to God. 27:21 And that's really important. 27:23 People need to see that, and they need to hear that, 27:26 and they need to feel that. 27:28 Well, I've got 32 seconds. 27:30 I need a little bit of something, a little song. 27:32 Give me about 28 seconds. 27:34 We're gonna say, listen, I'm Dr. Kim. 27:37 And I'm Arthur Nowlin. 27:38 Take us out, Anisa. 27:39 Amazing grace 27:43 shall always be my song of praise 27:48 For it was grace that bought my liberty 27:54 I'll never know 27:58 just why He came to love me so 28:03 He looked beyond all of my fault 28:09 And saw my need 28:12 Amen. That was great. 28:16 We love you. God bless you, Anisa. 28:18 Thank you, thank you. God bless you, too. 28:19 Thank you for coming. |
Revised 2015-05-14