Hi, I'm Dr. Kim Logan Nowlin.
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And I'm Arthur Nowlin.
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And welcome to "Making it Work."
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You know, Arthur, we did
part one to military and service
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but we wanted to do part two
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because it was
so much information.
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It was a lot of information
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and it was really something
that was exciting to me.
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Well, definitely,
well, I just want to recap
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for those who
are just joining us
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for the first time today,
you served in the Air Force
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and you also served in
Vietnam, is that correct?
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That's correct.
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All right, and
our special guests,
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we want to welcome them,
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Pastor Philip Willis
and also Mr. Roscoe Gray.
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Tell us a little
bit where you served
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and the impact of that service.
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I served as a
chaplain in the army
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and I'm still
serving currently now.
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I did two tours in Iraq.
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Two tours? All right, Mr. Gray?
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I served as a fire
team leader in Vietnam.
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And I was a paratrooper
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and served 11 months in Vietnam.
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Eleven months.
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All right, well, let's
pick up where we left off.
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We were talking
about your service,
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you being
injured there, Mr. Gray,
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and what you went through.
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What was it like coming
back home, after service?
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It was isolated.
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Getting out of the
service, at the airport,
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you're all by--
you're all alone.
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No one said welcome
home, no one said good job.
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You're just all alone.
Just like walking in a maze.
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What did I do to
be isolated like this?
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That's absolutely true,
I've had the same feeling,
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it was terrible, you know.
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I can remember
coming into Los Angeles
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and it was like an experience
that I'll never forget
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because no one paid
attention to me at all.
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Nobody asked me any questions,
you know, as a matter of fact,
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it was just like, hurry,
get on your next stop and go.
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Wow.
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But you had guys with one arm,
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one leg, in a wheelchairs,
no one said welcome home.
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No one said, I've
been praying for you.
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Was nothing like that.
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I think in contrast,
we had a big ceremony.
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I mean, we got off the plane,
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there were people
there to greet us,
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shaking our hands, the
general, chief of staff,
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and then after that we
bussed to our home station
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and there were
celebrating fans there,
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waiting on us, family members.
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I remember, I did
a piece on Fox News,
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they were there,
talking about it.
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But I will say this,
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probably the most
memorable experience that I had,
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I think, should
have been deserved
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for our veterans of Vietnam.
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I went to the airport,
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I was returning back
to Iraq through Atlanta,
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and the guy who was guiding
us, he wasn't a military person,
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he worked for the airport,
he guided all the soldiers back
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that were coming
home off of leave
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and going back to Iraq.
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And he said in the
airport, everybody stand up,
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these soldiers are
fighting for your freedom
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and let's give
them a standing ovation.
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Come on, that must
have been something.
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I was moved emotionally by it,
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I just couldn't
help but think about,
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you know, some of the Vietnam
guys that never got that.
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But it was a
tremendous feeling, you know.
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Felt proud.
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Let's talk about PTSD.
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I think we mentioned it a
little on our last program.
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Post Traumatic Stress
Disorder, let's talk about it,
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what it is and how you
define it within yourselves.
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And as counselors,
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we see a lot of that
in our clinic in Detroit.
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So let's talk about Post
Traumatic Stress Disorder.
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Well, when the soldiers
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from the Vietnam area came home,
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they were sent home.
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But yet they was troubled,
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emotionally,
spiritually, physically.
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And as time would pass,
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the-- what's wrong with you,
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why you acting like that?
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I don't know. Are you crazy?
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That's what was happening.
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But what was happening,
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they was having
all these problems,
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couldn't sleep, couldn't
eat, you daydream a lot.
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Flashbacks.
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Especially when you're
alone. When you have nightmares.
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And people say, you
just crazy, that's all.
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And no one would understand
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the side effect
of what was going on.
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I had a friend of mine--
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Served well on 173rd
came home, killed himself.
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What?
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Came home, killed himself.
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We had a lot of
that that was happening
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in the Air Force when
they were out on stations,
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they would-- the
next thing you know,
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they would call
you and let you know
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that somebody
just committed suicide.
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And it was really strange to me,
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especially the
first time I heard it,
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I couldn't understand,
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you know, what would
make them go to that point.
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But I think there
was a lot of things that,
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maybe the military
person was seeing that
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what's causing
them to act that way.
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And I guess when you were
explaining about going back
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and seeing the
death that was around you,
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you know, that
was really traumatic.
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I tell soldiers the
reintegration process
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can be different
depending on the people.
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You know, there
are some soldiers
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that are like Teflon, they'll go
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and they'll see
all the experiences,
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you know, see
the elements of war
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and come home and act as
if nothing ever happened.
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But then you have
people that are really in touch
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with their feelings and emotions
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and just the
whole intensity of it.
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I remember I was
going on a mission,
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and I'd gone on several
missions with this one soldier
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and he said, chaplain, I
really need to talk to you.
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So finally, in the
midst of one of the missions
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he said-- I said, let's talk
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and we sat down and we talked
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and I said, we need to get
you to one of our psychologists.
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I took him in to
the psychologist,
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because he was saying,
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chaplain, I'm having nightmares,
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you know, this
is my fourth tour,
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we lost 11 guys on the last tour
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and I'm having a difficult time.
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Sometimes commanders think that
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soldiers are just
trying to get off the mission
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but I said, I'm
going to get you some help.
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I took a man in
and the psychologist
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came back out
and said, chaplain,
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this soldier has severe PTSD.
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We need to get him some support.
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I think the reintegration
process is difficult
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because it's a
detour from reality.
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Most people know
that when you're--
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there's harm ahead
of you, you evade it.
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But in a war zone,
you go right into it
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and it's part of your life.
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And then you
begin to anticipate it
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and your
adrenaline high is so high
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that you kind of need it
to keep going from day to day.
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And then when you come home,
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everything
stops all of a sudden.
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Literally one day
you're in a war zone
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and then three or four
days after you get home,
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you're back on the streets.
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I remember, even as a chaplain,
I didn't carry any weapons,
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but I was in those same vehicles
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that those guys were in,
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looking out for
insurgents, wondering
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if the IED was going to
blow up the next minute.
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And if you've had those
experiences, it intensifies it.
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So I came home to
Detroit after my first tour,
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I'm driving down 696,
I'm looking down the road
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in my Honda Civic
for roadside bombs.
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Wow.
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Oh, I can believe that. I
can definitely believe that.
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And I have to
say this, I remember
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when you came
home the first time.
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Oh, yes.
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And I remember
some of the difficulties
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that you were experiencing
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and I talked to you for a moment
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and in the
process of talking to you,
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I can sense that it
was a different you.
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It was more intense
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and you were
really thinking about
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the experience that
you had just come out of.
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Right, well, you see,
this is what happens for me,
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you have soldiers
they live 24 years
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of their life on this
side, 30 years of their life--
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18 years of their
life in normal reality.
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And I tell them it's
a departure from reality
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because when you go to war,
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it's like two
intersecting lines.
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Regular life
continues to go forward,
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you go into like a time
warp and when you come back,
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you expect to
return to the same love,
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to the same life,
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but everything
has moved forward,
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your wife, your spouse,
whoever else has moved forward,
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friends have other degrees,
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they're
continuing to move forward.
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You come back and you've
missed out on a whole lot.
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So you have to rediscover
the reality that you left.
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What did I use to do
before I went over there?
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I used to go out, eat, I
used to go to this place.
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So I was at boarders one time,
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just trying to get
situational awareness,
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get my feet back on the ground,
and I had a friend call me.
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He was in Kuwait,
he never saw combat,
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he was working at a hospital.
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I was in the area of Mosul
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where we were
getting bombed and blown up,
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mortars were
coming in every day,
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so the impact was
quite different for me...
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I can imagine.
Than it was for him.
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I got a call from
him as I was going
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through my recovery phase,
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as I call it
detoxification, day after day.
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He calls me, he says Phil,
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I'm finding
myself more aggressive.
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And I was
feeling the same thing,
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but I was
saying, why is this guy
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finding himself more aggressive,
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when all he did was
work at the hospital?
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But he was seeing
the broken bodies--
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Right. That was coming in.
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You see, and we tend to take it
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so lightly from the other side,
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when we're sitting down
and watching it on television.
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We don't really
understand the impact,
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but those family
members understand the impact.
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What was the reaction
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when your mother
saw you, Brother Gray?
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What happened, Mr.
Gray, when he saw you?
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Well, when I first came home,
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I first went to
see my girlfriend.
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You See, your girlfriend?
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I wanted to see my
girlfriend. Before mama?
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I wanted to see my girlfriend.
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Oh, I couldn't wait...
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The plane from Washington DC
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at Walter Reed Hospital
to Detroit, it was so slow.
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The plane was slow?
00:10:04.67\00:10:05.74
I'd never been on a
plane that's so slow.
00:10:05.77\00:10:07.88
Okay, okay.
00:10:07.91\00:10:08.95
I want to get out
of there in a hurry.
00:10:08.98\00:10:11.85
And I go over to her house,
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now this is my
high school sweetheart.
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Guess what? What?
00:10:16.42\00:10:18.54
She's 7 months pregnant.
00:10:18.57\00:10:19.88
Oh.
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Seeing her like that was worse
than being shot in Vietnam.
00:10:21.72\00:10:26.15
Because before I was shot,
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the last letter I
received from her was,
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nothing will happen to
you because you are so smart.
00:10:30.27\00:10:32.33
Wow.
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I went home to my
mother and she just cried.
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Just to see her
baby, all scarred up,
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guts in the bag, I mean,
you could just see my stomach,
00:10:40.86\00:10:43.93
because I was
talking to the doctors.
00:10:43.96\00:10:46.68
I got to go home.
I want to go home.
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So what he did, he
colored my stomach.
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What do you mean
they colored your stomach?
00:10:52.59\00:10:53.92
What happened, he
put some black tar
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or something on it,
because I was open all here.
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Then I had my colostomy out
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and my mother wanted to
see my stomach and she fainted.
00:11:02.14\00:11:05.54
She fainted.
00:11:05.57\00:11:06.74
I had a colostomy out,
my stomach's messed up,
00:11:06.77\00:11:09.71
I was walking with a
cane, my finger was gone,
00:11:09.74\00:11:12.50
I was set afire
and she just fell out.
00:11:12.53\00:11:16.58
And just cried, just cried.
00:11:16.61\00:11:19.65
Well, on top of that
we're talking about a society
00:11:19.68\00:11:21.91
that didn't accept you back.
00:11:21.94\00:11:24.26
You know, and then a girlfriend
that was 7 months pregnant.
00:11:24.29\00:11:28.66
7 months pregnant.
00:11:28.69\00:11:29.91
So how did you keep it together?
00:11:29.94\00:11:32.66
Well, I don't even
know. I don't even know.
00:11:32.69\00:11:36.66
I'll tell you what happened,
00:11:36.69\00:11:37.93
I was supposed to
be home for 30 days.
00:11:37.96\00:11:39.98
I went home in a week
00:11:40.01\00:11:41.08
but I went back to
work in one week's time.
00:11:41.11\00:11:44.37
Because I went back
where my friends were.
00:11:44.40\00:11:46.67
Right, right.
00:11:46.70\00:11:47.81
Where you connected.
00:11:47.84\00:11:49.14
Right, right, where I connected.
00:11:49.17\00:11:50.49
Went back there.
00:11:50.52\00:11:51.84
You're home,
you're back so soon?
00:11:51.87\00:11:53.70
Yeah, and the
hospital, guys was all banged up
00:11:53.73\00:11:59.36
from Vietnam, lost
limbs, lost this or that,
00:11:59.39\00:12:03.39
and their wives or girlfriends
would come and look at them
00:12:03.42\00:12:05.92
and walk right out
the door and go back home.
00:12:05.95\00:12:07.75
And just leave
them? Just leave them.
00:12:07.78\00:12:10.05
Well, I'd like to
say something about that
00:12:10.08\00:12:11.80
because, you know, the wives
and girlfriends can't relate.
00:12:11.83\00:12:15.35
I think it takes a mature
person to really try to relate.
00:12:15.38\00:12:19.23
But what usually
ends up happening is,
00:12:19.26\00:12:21.01
is that the
soldiers want to be normal,
00:12:21.04\00:12:23.28
and they think they're normal
00:12:23.31\00:12:24.34
and they think they
can return back to normal,
00:12:24.37\00:12:26.04
but the spouses
or significant others
00:12:26.07\00:12:28.39
see that they're
different and, you know,
00:12:28.42\00:12:31.60
they just don't have
the connectivity with
00:12:31.63\00:12:34.01
what they're going through
00:12:34.04\00:12:35.28
and they can't deal
with it a lot of times.
00:12:35.31\00:12:36.94
So you're almost
saying then that a process
00:12:36.97\00:12:40.88
or some type of
therapy may be needed
00:12:40.91\00:12:45.58
for the family members
just to accept a person back,
00:12:45.61\00:12:48.72
especially if
he's a wounded veteran.
00:12:48.75\00:12:51.49
The families need to
know because they think
00:12:51.52\00:12:53.40
they're getting the same
person back and they're not.
00:12:53.43\00:12:55.24
They can't identify.
00:12:55.27\00:12:56.44
In fact, you can't even,
soldiers can't really even talk
00:12:56.47\00:12:59.07
and go into detail,
because as soon as--
00:12:59.10\00:13:01.35
three seconds,
three or four seconds
00:13:01.38\00:13:02.84
while you're telling
them about your experience,
00:13:02.87\00:13:05.19
their eyes glaze over and
you know they don't get it
00:13:05.22\00:13:07.47
and you don't want to
talk about it anymore.
00:13:07.50\00:13:09.50
Did either one of you receive
counseling after your tour?
00:13:09.53\00:13:12.52
No.
00:13:12.55\00:13:15.09
No? No counseling was provided?
00:13:15.12\00:13:17.27
No.
00:13:17.30\00:13:18.33
I definitely would believe that
00:13:18.36\00:13:19.43
you probably didn't receive one,
00:13:19.46\00:13:21.05
after Vietnam,
you probably didn't.
00:13:21.08\00:13:22.84
Go out to the
hospital, out in Allen Park,
00:13:22.87\00:13:27.41
they had all these
Vietnam vets out there.
00:13:27.44\00:13:30.79
All kids of problems.
They was given darvons.
00:13:30.82\00:13:34.12
You know what
darvons are? Pain pills.
00:13:34.15\00:13:37.18
You didn't work on the system
that was happening to them,
00:13:37.21\00:13:39.96
they was messed up here.
00:13:39.99\00:13:41.90
But they gave you a darvon.
00:13:41.93\00:13:43.65
In one town, I went
to a private doctor,
00:13:43.68\00:13:47.06
he said, wow, you have
ulcers all inside your stomach.
00:13:47.09\00:13:51.20
I had bleeding
ulcers. Bleeding ulcers.
00:13:51.23\00:13:55.18
And all that the
VA would to give him--
00:13:55.21\00:13:56.94
give me and
other guys was darvons.
00:13:56.97\00:14:00.11
They had to take--
They had to stop giving
00:14:00.14\00:14:01.49
those guys the
darvons, make them crazy.
00:14:01.52\00:14:02.76
Yeah, I remember that.
00:14:02.79\00:14:03.86
You got addicted
to it. The darvons.
00:14:03.89\00:14:06.50
They're taking drugs now,
soldiers are heavily medicated
00:14:06.53\00:14:08.70
and they're not able to really
be lucid in their thinking,
00:14:08.73\00:14:12.51
they just try to
numb away the pain.
00:14:12.54\00:14:14.74
But I did go to
counseling. You did?
00:14:14.77\00:14:17.94
And here's the reason why.
00:14:17.97\00:14:19.71
Chaplains don't--
people don't think
00:14:19.74\00:14:20.88
that chaplains
actually engage in the battle,
00:14:20.91\00:14:23.35
they think they're sitting back,
00:14:23.38\00:14:24.41
waiting for
soldiers to come with them.
00:14:24.44\00:14:25.96
I'm not cut that way
just to sit at an oak desk
00:14:25.99\00:14:28.34
and wait for
soldiers to come or whatever.
00:14:28.37\00:14:30.14
I engaged in the battle,
I went out on the missions,
00:14:30.17\00:14:33.30
I was there with the soldiers
00:14:33.33\00:14:35.07
when they-- trucks
got blown up and shot at
00:14:35.10\00:14:37.15
and all that stuff, I was there.
00:14:37.18\00:14:39.91
Not to mention
that, I had 1,900 soldiers
00:14:39.94\00:14:42.89
under my
purview, in a battalion,
00:14:42.92\00:14:46.20
all those guys came to
one chaplain, I was their guy.
00:14:46.23\00:14:49.53
So I had problems,
I was getting woken up
00:14:49.56\00:14:51.72
at 3 o'clock in the morning.
00:14:51.75\00:14:52.98
Chaplain, we just had a mission
00:14:53.01\00:14:55.42
that was hit, two
soldiers are dead.
00:14:55.45\00:14:57.35
All of a sudden
I got to get ready
00:14:57.38\00:14:58.53
for a memorial ceremony
00:14:58.56\00:15:00.44
and I know those
guys and stuff like that.
00:15:00.47\00:15:02.94
Or I get waken up in
the middle of the night
00:15:02.97\00:15:04.94
and the guy tells me,
00:15:04.97\00:15:06.36
I knew something
bad was gonna happen,
00:15:06.39\00:15:07.86
I was just about
to get on the radio
00:15:07.89\00:15:09.30
and tell 'em,
and then we got hit
00:15:09.33\00:15:11.14
and those guys are dead,
00:15:11.17\00:15:12.27
you know, I'm
dealing with all of this.
00:15:12.30\00:15:13.75
So all of this bad stuff
that happened, where do I go?
00:15:13.78\00:15:17.12
I had social workers there
coming to me for counseling.
00:15:17.15\00:15:20.84
Now so I go home
with all of this stuff.
00:15:20.87\00:15:23.43
Where do I put it? My goodness.
00:15:23.46\00:15:25.49
And it wasn't till my dad
was diagnosed with cancer,
00:15:25.52\00:15:28.62
and my
girlfriend broke up with me,
00:15:28.65\00:15:31.11
that I started
to kind of unravel.
00:15:31.14\00:15:32.93
Never missed a day of
work, never missed a sermon,
00:15:32.96\00:15:35.69
but inside I was
broken emotionally.
00:15:35.72\00:15:38.78
So what they have now
00:15:38.81\00:15:40.12
is they have military
OneSource where you can call--
00:15:40.15\00:15:43.22
And 24 hours you can call them.
00:15:43.25\00:15:45.32
And I cried and I
talked to them on the phone
00:15:45.35\00:15:47.31
and the lady said, hey,
you're going to be okay.
00:15:47.34\00:15:50.41
We understand what
you're going through.
00:15:50.44\00:15:52.23
We're going to get you set
up for somebody to talk to.
00:15:52.26\00:15:54.93
And they took care of me.
00:15:54.96\00:15:56.01
I needed that,
because I had nowhere
00:15:56.04\00:15:57.45
to download all of that stuff.
00:15:57.48\00:15:58.93
For that 13
months that first tour.
00:15:58.96\00:16:01.96
So that was effective for you?
00:16:01.99\00:16:03.67
It was. It helped, it helped.
00:16:03.70\00:16:05.53
In a real critical period
in my life, it really helped.
00:16:05.56\00:16:08.55
Big time.
00:16:08.58\00:16:09.61
We had that-- when
I came from Vietnam,
00:16:09.64\00:16:13.24
a lot of guys
were a lot better off.
00:16:13.27\00:16:16.70
Seeing bodies
burnt, with the napalm,
00:16:16.73\00:16:21.39
seeing your friends that
00:16:21.42\00:16:22.78
you got to hold
them till he die.
00:16:22.81\00:16:25.48
You have to put them in
the body bag and zip 'em up.
00:16:25.51\00:16:29.27
And that stays right with you.
00:16:29.30\00:16:31.83
You know, the mind is
not supposed to see that.
00:16:31.86\00:16:34.26
You know, I saw
brain matter rolling down
00:16:34.29\00:16:36.35
the side of a
vehicle, after a guy--
00:16:36.38\00:16:37.83
'Cause, you know, they call
the chaplain in for this stuff.
00:16:37.86\00:16:40.88
You're not supposed to see that.
00:16:40.91\00:16:43.22
Not in that environment,
you know, you don't anticipate
00:16:43.25\00:16:46.11
that that's what
you're going to see.
00:16:46.14\00:16:47.71
That's what war is
and when you wake up
00:16:47.74\00:16:49.43
to that reality, it
changes you forever.
00:16:49.46\00:16:52.18
So now we're at a point
00:16:52.21\00:16:53.86
where post traumatic
stress has been recognized
00:16:53.89\00:16:58.40
as something that is
extremely debilitating,
00:16:58.43\00:17:01.49
especially when we're talking
about dealing with combat.
00:17:01.52\00:17:06.27
So what do you see in the future
00:17:06.30\00:17:10.80
as far as something
that's going to be significant,
00:17:10.83\00:17:15.14
to really help
veterans coming back?
00:17:15.17\00:17:18.07
Well, what they're doing
now for the Vietnam vets,
00:17:18.10\00:17:20.79
what the DAV, the VFW
and the other agencies,
00:17:20.82\00:17:25.33
all have the same
symptoms, the same problems.
00:17:26.54\00:17:29.50
Oh, something wrong with that.
00:17:29.53\00:17:32.20
Now they're getting help.
00:17:32.23\00:17:34.43
Lot of these guys came home,
00:17:34.46\00:17:35.50
went to work,
they're retired now,
00:17:35.53\00:17:37.68
now they have all
kinds of problems.
00:17:37.71\00:17:40.22
Sexual problems, everything.
00:17:40.25\00:17:42.61
Sexual problems, everything.
00:17:42.64\00:17:44.86
So now their needs
are being looked after.
00:17:44.89\00:17:48.03
But look at that,
that's 40 years later.
00:17:48.06\00:17:49.80
40 years later.
00:17:49.83\00:17:51.20
40 years later,
and a lot of the guys
00:17:51.23\00:17:52.72
that came home got married,
divorced, married, divorced.
00:17:52.75\00:17:57.14
If they had the counseling,
00:17:57.17\00:17:59.12
things would have
been a lot better.
00:17:59.15\00:18:00.68
Well, you know, I
want to look at the future,
00:18:00.71\00:18:04.99
and look at the lives
because there have been
00:18:05.02\00:18:06.98
some happy endings
for many of our soldiers.
00:18:07.01\00:18:09.69
Oh, yes.
00:18:09.72\00:18:10.75
And tell us what you're
doing now and, Mr. Gray,
00:18:10.78\00:18:15.52
I want to know how you came
00:18:15.55\00:18:18.10
into the
Seventh-day Adventist message.
00:18:18.13\00:18:20.56
How did you become a Christian?
00:18:20.59\00:18:22.74
I had a girlfriend
that broke up with me.
00:18:22.77\00:18:24.30
I know but it was--
00:18:24.33\00:18:26.70
Oh, man, she broke my heart.
00:18:26.73\00:18:28.91
I mean, she--
00:18:28.94\00:18:29.98
I was thinking about
suicide and everything.
00:18:30.01\00:18:34.58
I mean, all these
women breaking up with me
00:18:34.61\00:18:36.75
and all this
bad luck with women,
00:18:36.78\00:18:38.05
what's my problem?
00:18:38.08\00:18:40.44
My grandmother called me.
00:18:40.47\00:18:41.50
Your grandmother?
00:18:41.53\00:18:42.68
She said, why don't you come out
00:18:42.71\00:18:44.11
to California
for a little while?
00:18:44.14\00:18:45.43
Okay. She was an Adventist.
00:18:45.46\00:18:46.91
Is that right?
00:18:46.94\00:18:48.11
And I took a leave from work,
00:18:48.14\00:18:51.18
went out to San
Jose, California,
00:18:51.21\00:18:54.28
and come, go to church with me.
00:18:54.31\00:18:55.70
I don't want to go
to church with you,
00:18:55.73\00:18:56.79
I didn't come out
here to go to church.
00:18:56.82\00:18:58.90
I went out there
to get a girlfriend.
00:18:58.93\00:19:03.33
That's what I
went out there for.
00:19:03.36\00:19:04.41
To find another...
00:19:04.44\00:19:05.47
You were gonna
find you someone else.
00:19:05.50\00:19:06.62
Find me somebody.
00:19:06.65\00:19:07.71
Okay, 'cause you did
not want to be alone.
00:19:07.74\00:19:09.85
Right. Okay.
00:19:09.88\00:19:11.52
You know, I never
went to church with her.
00:19:11.55\00:19:13.58
I called my cousin,
00:19:13.61\00:19:14.77
we'd go to Fresco
and Oakland and party,
00:19:14.80\00:19:17.07
come home Friday
nights, make grandma mad.
00:19:17.10\00:19:20.53
You know, come go
to church with me.
00:19:20.56\00:19:22.56
Oh, grandma, I can't go
today, I'll go next week.
00:19:22.59\00:19:25.52
My aunt, also an Adventist,
00:19:25.55\00:19:26.92
she said, come go
to church with me.
00:19:26.95\00:19:28.96
Okay, just to get
away from grandma,
00:19:28.99\00:19:31.49
I went to her, I
went to church with her.
00:19:31.52\00:19:34.49
But the night before I
went to church with her,
00:19:34.52\00:19:36.27
she told me
everything, everything.
00:19:36.30\00:19:40.28
Why God did this, why
God did that, why, why, why.
00:19:40.31\00:19:44.41
And when I went to
church for that Sabbath,
00:19:44.44\00:19:45.83
everybody in South Central
00:19:45.86\00:19:47.73
Seventh-day Adventist
Church knew who I was.
00:19:47.76\00:19:50.68
They had been praying for you.
00:19:50.71\00:19:51.90
You are Sister Gray's
grandson. I met Pastor Hart.
00:19:51.93\00:19:54.99
He said, young man,
we've been praying for you.
00:19:55.02\00:19:56.82
Wow.
00:19:56.85\00:19:58.20
When we heard you got
shot, we fast for you.
00:19:58.23\00:20:00.67
Wow.
00:20:00.70\00:20:02.15
And I said well-- I
started taking Bible studies.
00:20:02.18\00:20:05.29
And I said, well,
when I get back to Detroit,
00:20:05.32\00:20:07.84
I'll join the church.
00:20:07.87\00:20:10.08
Two years later I
joined a church two years.
00:20:10.11\00:20:11.95
It took you two years.
00:20:11.98\00:20:13.02
From when you
came from California?
00:20:13.05\00:20:14.61
But you joined.
00:20:14.64\00:20:16.13
I joined the church.
The snow was that deep.
00:20:16.16\00:20:19.57
And you joined? I
joined the church.
00:20:19.60\00:20:21.74
And then, 'cause
you were employed where?
00:20:21.77\00:20:24.28
For a motor company.
00:20:24.31\00:20:25.35
For a motor
company until you retired.
00:20:25.38\00:20:27.71
And then you met,
you met that girlfriend.
00:20:27.74\00:20:30.32
Well, a mutual friend
of ours introduced me.
00:20:30.35\00:20:33.90
And I said, wow,
look at this young lady.
00:20:33.93\00:20:37.46
And she walked
down the center aisle
00:20:37.49\00:20:39.14
to cedar top
towards the back door
00:20:39.17\00:20:40.86
and as she turned
around, I got her.
00:20:40.89\00:20:44.71
And she turned
around and looked at me
00:20:44.74\00:20:46.16
and I started
chasing her ever since.
00:20:46.19\00:20:49.11
But you know what, this is the--
00:20:49.14\00:20:52.89
A friend of mine's
mother told me that
00:20:52.92\00:20:54.40
the Lord put people in
your life just for a season.
00:20:54.43\00:20:57.91
And all these girlfriends
that broke up with me,
00:20:57.94\00:21:00.52
they was only
there for a season.
00:21:00.55\00:21:01.81
For a season.
00:21:01.84\00:21:02.96
Until my wife came along,
00:21:02.99\00:21:05.12
and she was the one that
the Lord had chose for me.
00:21:05.15\00:21:07.97
Yeah, it's a long time ago.
00:21:08.00\00:21:09.24
And how long have
you all been married?
00:21:09.27\00:21:10.65
36 years.
00:21:10.68\00:21:11.98
36 years. I'm blessed.
00:21:12.01\00:21:13.50
Three children,
and two and a half
00:21:13.53\00:21:16.13
grandchildren, you
got another grandchild.
00:21:16.16\00:21:17.52
We've got one in the oven now.
00:21:17.55\00:21:18.91
One in the oven.
00:21:18.94\00:21:20.20
And now you're
working with veterans.
00:21:20.23\00:21:22.32
Oh, yes, I go down
to the VA on Thursdays.
00:21:22.35\00:21:25.23
Do you?
00:21:25.26\00:21:26.30
Talk to the
veterans. That's wonderful.
00:21:26.33\00:21:27.53
And what did-- Go ahead.
00:21:27.56\00:21:28.72
And also with the DAV,
post number one on Puritan,
00:21:28.75\00:21:32.47
where we work
with veterans as well.
00:21:32.50\00:21:34.38
Right. And DAV stands for?
00:21:34.41\00:21:36.03
Disabled American Veterans.
00:21:36.06\00:21:37.72
Now one of the things that
00:21:37.75\00:21:40.93
I've seen in the news recently
is that a lot of the veterans
00:21:40.96\00:21:46.48
that are coming home now
00:21:46.51\00:21:48.40
from the wars are
not only suffering
00:21:48.43\00:21:51.05
from post traumatic stress,
but they're also homeless.
00:21:51.08\00:21:55.38
I mean, which is astounding.
00:21:55.41\00:21:57.60
Because they are
unable to find employment,
00:21:57.63\00:22:00.71
they are unable to--
00:22:00.74\00:22:02.99
A lot of them that may
qualify for certain benefits,
00:22:03.02\00:22:06.66
haven't even applied,
00:22:06.69\00:22:08.77
so they're on the
streets, you know.
00:22:08.80\00:22:11.15
And so how do
you see that changing
00:22:11.18\00:22:13.21
or if you see that changing?
00:22:13.24\00:22:14.46
Well, I heard
recently this initiative
00:22:14.49\00:22:16.33
by the president to provide--
00:22:16.36\00:22:18.29
Funds were
available for individuals that
00:22:18.32\00:22:20.64
wanted to put homes
together for veterans
00:22:20.67\00:22:23.99
that were without homes.
00:22:24.02\00:22:25.07
There's a lot of
programs available.
00:22:25.10\00:22:27.14
The issue is getting the
message out to those guys,
00:22:27.17\00:22:29.96
you know, I think more
than it's ever been before,
00:22:29.99\00:22:32.61
there's programs available.
00:22:32.64\00:22:34.08
There's the counseling 24 hours,
00:22:34.11\00:22:36.15
all they have to do
is call or go online
00:22:36.18\00:22:38.65
and they can get in
touch with somebody.
00:22:38.68\00:22:40.66
Same thing for homes.
00:22:40.69\00:22:42.01
There's programs but
they just need to know.
00:22:42.04\00:22:44.51
They don't have that knowledge.
00:22:44.54\00:22:45.58
They don't have the
knowledge. Pastor Willis?
00:22:45.61\00:22:47.83
Now you have married, new
baby, and you're pastoring.
00:22:47.86\00:22:52.94
And you're still, like you
said, active, you're still,
00:22:52.97\00:22:55.47
you know, is that the reserve
that you're in a part of?
00:22:55.50\00:22:57.52
I am just
transferred to the reserves.
00:22:57.55\00:22:58.65
To the reserves.
00:22:58.68\00:22:59.72
So you were in a National Guard.
00:22:59.75\00:23:00.83
I was in the National Guard
00:23:00.86\00:23:01.92
and I
transferred to the reserves.
00:23:01.95\00:23:04.16
Now you are
pastoring in Gary, Indiana.
00:23:04.19\00:23:07.33
That's right, and South Chicago.
00:23:07.36\00:23:08.68
And South Chicago. Two churches.
00:23:08.71\00:23:10.14
And you have a program
called the Man College.
00:23:10.17\00:23:12.94
Tell me about that.
00:23:12.97\00:23:14.01
You know, Man College is
a really aggressive program
00:23:14.04\00:23:16.53
that we developed after
looking at our community.
00:23:16.56\00:23:18.73
64% of all the
families in Gary, Indiana
00:23:18.76\00:23:21.62
and South Chicago
are from single parents,
00:23:21.65\00:23:23.63
primarily female dominated.
00:23:23.66\00:23:25.75
64%, so that means that
00:23:25.78\00:23:28.98
you have boys and girls
out there with only one parent.
00:23:29.01\00:23:32.11
And if they have a job,
00:23:32.15\00:23:33.59
who's taking care of those kids?
00:23:33.62\00:23:35.26
But I noticed in my church that
00:23:35.29\00:23:36.63
we found some of the
boys were aggressive,
00:23:36.66\00:23:40.42
some of them having
been raised by their mother,
00:23:40.45\00:23:42.83
their
grandmother and their sister,
00:23:42.86\00:23:44.69
had some characteristics
that were un-man like.
00:23:44.72\00:23:47.99
Long
fingernails, not well groomed,
00:23:48.02\00:23:50.58
you know, aggressive behavior,
00:23:50.61\00:23:52.62
and I said, we
definitely need to do something.
00:23:52.65\00:23:54.35
There was an incident
that raised my awareness,
00:23:54.38\00:23:56.76
where we had a young
man, had responded to somebody
00:23:56.79\00:23:59.30
and he punched two holes
in the wall of our church.
00:23:59.33\00:24:01.70
And I said, we've got to
do something aggressively
00:24:01.73\00:24:03.54
to help wrap
our arms around them
00:24:03.57\00:24:05.94
and to embrace
them and teach them.
00:24:05.97\00:24:07.48
So we developed Man College
00:24:07.51\00:24:09.12
which goes back to
the basis of education
00:24:09.15\00:24:11.52
and align them with
positive male role models
00:24:11.55\00:24:15.07
that will help them
through some tough times in life
00:24:15.10\00:24:17.87
and just some coaching
and mentoring and teaching.
00:24:17.90\00:24:20.34
Let me ask now, is Man College
00:24:20.37\00:24:24.40
a part of maybe your philosophy
from your military experience?
00:24:24.43\00:24:30.80
I would have to say so.
00:24:30.83\00:24:32.05
You know, because predominantly,
00:24:32.08\00:24:33.81
majority of the guys
that I worked with were men
00:24:33.84\00:24:36.37
and I got a chance
to see how they were,
00:24:36.40\00:24:38.56
and how they
were impacted by it.
00:24:38.59\00:24:40.82
I came back, after I volunteered
00:24:40.85\00:24:43.08
for my second tour and
that had something to do
00:24:43.11\00:24:44.80
with reintegration,
because I saw that
00:24:44.83\00:24:47.46
I was better suited,
after one year of that
00:24:47.49\00:24:50.04
horrible
experience to go back again,
00:24:50.07\00:24:52.65
then stay here and
deal with the reality.
00:24:52.68\00:24:54.67
That's a major decision.
00:24:54.70\00:24:55.87
And you know what?
00:24:55.90\00:24:56.95
A lot of soldiers are
doing that, multiple tours,
00:24:56.98\00:24:59.20
and that's why their
PTSD is a greater number now
00:24:59.23\00:25:02.57
than it's ever
been in the former wars,
00:25:02.60\00:25:05.07
because of the multiple
tours that they're having.
00:25:05.10\00:25:06.99
Well, you know, was
to give them opportunity
00:25:07.02\00:25:11.03
to find some type of success,
00:25:11.06\00:25:13.00
here and in the United
States, when they get out,
00:25:13.03\00:25:15.77
if there's no
employment, I'd rather go back.
00:25:15.80\00:25:18.86
Go back.
00:25:18.89\00:25:20.11
Well, what they
can do is get involved.
00:25:20.14\00:25:22.74
Is get involved in
the social programs,
00:25:22.77\00:25:27.41
just out at the
Peterson-Warren Academy
00:25:27.44\00:25:28.82
I take guys fishing,
00:25:28.85\00:25:30.24
take 'em to ball
games, take 'em bowling,
00:25:30.27\00:25:32.90
work with them how to be a man.
00:25:32.93\00:25:35.38
When I first joined the
church, I used to be an escort.
00:25:35.41\00:25:39.31
A escort what?
00:25:39.34\00:25:40.51
An escort. A military escort.
00:25:40.54\00:25:43.58
Oh, okay, you know
what I was thinking, right?
00:25:43.61\00:25:46.82
You know what we were thinking.
00:25:46.85\00:25:48.54
I mean... that's why we had
00:25:48.57\00:25:50.77
to ask you two or three times.
00:25:50.80\00:25:52.37
A military escort. Okay.
00:25:52.40\00:25:55.19
At Walter Reed,
the colonel came in
00:25:55.22\00:25:57.13
and said, can you walk?
00:25:57.16\00:25:58.64
Yes, okay, you're going down
to Fort Bragg to be an escort.
00:25:58.67\00:26:01.90
Because I was still taking,
00:26:01.93\00:26:03.56
still getting
operations and everything.
00:26:03.59\00:26:05.80
So I would
talk-- take girls out,
00:26:05.83\00:26:09.07
colonel's daughter,
the general's daughter,
00:26:09.10\00:26:11.35
and we wanted to train
them how to treat a lady,
00:26:11.38\00:26:13.43
how to hold their hand,
how to do things like that.
00:26:13.46\00:26:16.60
So out at Peterson,
00:26:16.63\00:26:19.32
I taught the young guys
how to hold a lady's hand,
00:26:19.35\00:26:22.76
how to bow to
'em and everything.
00:26:22.79\00:26:26.18
That's what I did with Peterson.
00:26:26.21\00:26:27.98
We do the same
thing with Man College.
00:26:28.01\00:26:30.09
And we have 28 boys
that we're working with,
00:26:30.12\00:26:31.58
from the city, they're
not members of the church
00:26:31.61\00:26:33.92
but we recruited
them from the streets.
00:26:33.95\00:26:35.93
28 young men,
we're teaching them
00:26:35.96\00:26:37.16
how to dress, how to
prepare for interview,
00:26:37.19\00:26:39.06
how to, you know,
just be gentlemen,
00:26:39.09\00:26:41.16
and not respond in
an aggressive manner.
00:26:41.19\00:26:42.72
And a lot of the young
men that you're dealing with
00:26:42.75\00:26:46.12
come from referrals
within the community.
00:26:46.15\00:26:47.98
That's correct.
Yes, the referrals.
00:26:48.01\00:26:49.43
That's a good deal,
so that's the church,
00:26:49.46\00:26:51.54
your church, and a community
00:26:51.57\00:26:53.08
coming together to
address this issue.
00:26:53.11\00:26:54.93
That's right,
and the discipline,
00:26:54.96\00:26:56.08
the military side helps
me teach them the discipline
00:26:56.11\00:26:58.85
that they need to make
better decisions and exposure.
00:26:58.88\00:27:02.07
You know what, you need
a part three to this, okay?
00:27:02.10\00:27:05.59
But we have truly
enjoyed you being with us,
00:27:05.62\00:27:08.24
you got to come back again
00:27:08.27\00:27:09.31
because there's
so much information
00:27:09.34\00:27:11.02
that our viewers need.
00:27:11.05\00:27:12.64
I want to thank
you, Pastor Philip Willis
00:27:12.67\00:27:14.62
and Mr. Roscoe Gray, and
let me say, the reason why,
00:27:14.65\00:27:17.83
in our previous show, I
referred to him as elder,
00:27:17.86\00:27:20.74
and he's our first
elder of the City Temple
00:27:20.77\00:27:23.44
Seventh-day Adventist church
00:27:23.47\00:27:24.92
and he's served
in so many capacities
00:27:24.95\00:27:26.99
but the role of the elder
is right underneath the pastor,
00:27:27.02\00:27:29.68
to be there to
support, to strengthen
00:27:29.71\00:27:32.48
and to help guide, and
he truly has been that.
00:27:32.51\00:27:36.27
And our spiritual
leader under our pastor.
00:27:36.30\00:27:39.30
Well, Arthur, I'm
glad that you're home
00:27:39.33\00:27:42.09
and that you're safe.
00:27:42.12\00:27:43.45
Pastor Willis
and Mr. Roscoe Gray.
00:27:43.48\00:27:46.54
I'm still suffering
from PTSD when I'm at home.
00:27:46.57\00:27:50.40
He does, seriously,
well, seriously, he does
00:27:50.43\00:27:52.43
and I mean, seriously
and I've noticed some things
00:27:52.46\00:27:55.63
but it's gotten better
over the years, so we thank God.
00:27:55.66\00:27:57.54
It's a support system though.
00:27:57.57\00:27:58.97
It is a support
system, it really is.
00:27:59.00\00:28:00.49
The support
system if it's there then
00:28:00.52\00:28:02.69
that can make
things a whole lot easier.
00:28:02.72\00:28:04.90
And that's what
I've come to see.
00:28:04.93\00:28:07.11
Could you say that
again? Nothing like a good wife.
00:28:07.14\00:28:09.09
I have a good wife.
I'm gonna close with that.
00:28:09.12\00:28:11.42
I'm Dr. Kim Logan
Nowlin. And I'm Arthur Nowlin.
00:28:11.45\00:28:13.67
And thank you for joining us
00:28:13.70\00:28:15.13
on another program
of "Making it Work."
00:28:15.16\00:28:17.59