Hi, I'm Dr. Kim Logan Nowlin.
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And I'm Arthur Nowlin.
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Welcome to "Making it Work."
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Our topic today,
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"The Impact of
Military and Service."
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Arthur, you
served in the Air Force,
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United States Air Force.
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Yes. What year?
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That was in--
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why did you ask
that question, Kim?
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Well, I'm just curious to learn.
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I mean, I mean,
that was a long time ago.
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I think it was 1970-- 1970-1973.
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Okay.
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And you also--
you served in Vietnam?
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Served in Vietnam.
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What was the experience then?
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It was quite a
different experience for me
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because I was mostly
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in the urban community,
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as far as being involved
with different cultures,
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I had never been involved
with a lot of different cultures
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and then all of a sudden,
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here I'm thrown
into that situation.
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It was
mind-boggling at one point.
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Were you
drafted or did you join?
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Well, it was kind of strange.
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I was drafted by the army
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because I was on
my way to college.
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Okay.
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And the army said--
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and I wanted to take a year
off to build up my finances.
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Sure.
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And I got something
from Selective Services
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and they said, well,
you took a year off so,
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you are not eligible for
us to avoid taking you now.
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So we want to draft you now.
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But while I was in high
school, some friends and myself,
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we took a test
for the Air Force.
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Well, that test really saved
me from going to the military--
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from the-- to the
army at that point.
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Okay.
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So I went into the Air Force.
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I see. Well--
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Thinking that I was gonna
avoid Vietnam at that point.
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I know you saw a lot of
devastation, a lot of pain.
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Yes, yes.
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You know, but you also
had a great experience.
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What was the great experience?
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That you made it out alive.
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Oh, that was tremendous.
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That was tremendous.
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You're on target today.
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Thank you so much.
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You know, not too many can
say that they made it out alive,
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but we are
sensitive to the families
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that maybe viewing this program.
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We want to welcome
two special guests,
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Pastor Phillip Willis
and also elder Roscoe Gray.
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Welcome to our
program. Thank you.
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Thank you for
coming. Happy to be here.
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Well, I'm gonna
just let my husband begin
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to share some information,
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I'm gonna come
in a little later.
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Wow, this is very simple.
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This is-- all I need to do is
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bring on some men and
then I can take the show.
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Arthur, let's go to the show
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Okay.
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Gentlemen, it's so
good to have you here.
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Let's start with you, Roscoe.
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How about telling us
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what part of the military
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were you involved with and also,
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what did you do while
you were in the military?
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Well, I was a paratrooper.
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Okay.
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And I was a weapon specialist.
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And the army trained
me to be a good shot,
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not to miss.
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And I can shoot everything
from a 45, all the way up.
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Excellent.
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Expert at
everything that I shot.
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So you were a marksman?
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Expert.
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Okay, that's
better than marksman.
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Well, okay. Okay.
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And what branch
were you in, pastor?
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Well, I served approximately
15 years so far in the army
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and I'm a chaplain.
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Okay.
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So my job is to
minister to the soldiers,
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regardless of their
religion or background.
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Excellent, regardless
of religion or background.
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That's correct.
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Explain. Tell me, they must
be kind of different for you?
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Well, it's nonsectarian.
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We have a
pluralistic environment.
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While I'm a Protestant chaplain,
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I'm there to provide
religious support for everybody.
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Okay, excellent.
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Now, I want to go
back to paratrooper,
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could you explain to
me what is a paratrooper?
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Well, a paratrooper is a soldier
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that jumps out of airplanes.
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And it makes you
tough, makes you like a bird,
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just feel good just
coming out of an airplane.
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So para-- I hear
the word "paratrooper"--
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Like parachute?
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Like a para-- so
you have a parachute on,
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they are trained you to do that.
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Were you afraid
when you first got there?
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Were you afraid of that?
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Yes, my first
jump knocked me out.
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Oh, my, what did you hit?
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I landed wrong.
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You landed wrong but
you never did that again?
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No, never did that again.
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So you went into the
military, you were single?
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Yes.
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All, right, and also when you
first served you were single?
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That's correct. Okay.
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So, how long were
you in the military
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before you went overseas?
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I was in about 11 months
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and when I got to jump
school, I went to Panama.
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Panama?
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To train for--
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actually I wanted
to be a green beret.
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Oh, really.
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Why would you-- why did you
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want to be a green beret?
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Well, just the
toughness. Toughness?
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The number one
league in the military?
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Yes, yes, yes, the toughness
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because though
in basic you qualify
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to be certain
things just like the--
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You were a fighter then?
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Oh, yes, yes.
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Matter of fact, when I was a kid
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I would jump off buildings.
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Oh, okay.
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Climb tree, jump out of trees.
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You know, play king of the hill,
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did all of that.
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So you dreamt about
going into the military?
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No, I didn't dream about it.
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Okay, you didn't dream
about it, were you drafted,
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'cause you were drafted.
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Oh, I was drafted.
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I was drafted and might as well,
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while I'm here make the best of.
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All right.
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What was
probably the driving force
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to get you
involved with the military?
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Oh, me? I needed job.
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I mean, I had
gone to school for,
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you know, for the
extended period time,
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I'm at the end of
my master's degree.
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I was looking to find a church
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and there weren't
a whole lot of people
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hiring at that time,
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and I wanted to do
something with my career.
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And so I looked
at being a missionary
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and I also
looked at the military
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and the army said, come
on brother, we love you.
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So we got two different
circumstances, you know.
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Perspectives.
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Yeah, both of
you had opportunity
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to be in combat zones.
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That's right.
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Tell me about
that, you first, pastor.
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Well, I went twice.
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And you were in the--
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I went to Iraq,
operation Iraqi Freedom.
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I had the
opportunity to deployed twice.
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And there's no experience
like being in a war zone.
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Nothing prepares you for it,
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I don't care how
much training you have.
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And it just comes from my
perspective as a chaplain.
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I know that he went to a whole
different level of training,
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being in the special forces,
special ops, green beret,
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paratrooper, I didn't have that.
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I'm a chaplain, you know,
so I'm there carrying Bibles
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and going to
minister and preach sermons
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and help people
through the most difficult time
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that life had to throw at you.
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But I didn't anticipate how--
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the impact that
it would have on me.
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So my first
tour was really tough
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because bad things
were happening all the time
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and by end of that tour
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we ended up
losing seven soldiers.
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At any one time we had
1,900 soldiers under our,
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under our
purview at the battalion
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that I work with.
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By the time I
went the second time
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I was much better prepared.
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Okay.
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You know, and tell me
about your combat experience.
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Well, it was really rough.
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From the first day in Vietnam,
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you know, we went to
Cam Ranh Bay in Vietnam
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and just to see the Vietnamese,
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a lot of guys to-- look scary,
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just see the
Vietnamese walk around.
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Is he gonna shoot
me, is he gonna shoot me,
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is he gonna poison me,
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he gonna do
this, he gonna do that.
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And to go to my
base camp at Khe,
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that's when you
really get assigned
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to your combat unit
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and I went to the 2nd Battalion
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B Company of the
503rd of 173rd Airborne
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and they are the most
decorated unit in Vietnam.
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Wow.
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Three
Presidential Unit Citations,
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that's when I was there
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and we have 11 Medal of
Honor winners of the 173rd.
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Yes, there were.
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Now, were you a
Seventh-day Adventist?
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No, I was not. I was a 50/50.
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Okay, so you didn't
really have a Christian home?
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I used to go to
church Christmas, Easter.
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Okay. Okay.
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That was it. Go check
out a girlfriend or two.
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Oh, okay, all right.
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So what about you?
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You are a Seventh-day Adventist.
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Absolutely.
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And you know, how did that--
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Impact me? Yes.
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I was a believer and you
know, I trusted in the Lord but,
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you know, as he was
an expert in weapons,
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the only weapon that I
had was my Bible and my faith.
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That's great.
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It became
evident, the level at which
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my weapon could be
their asset or disadvantage.
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When I was riding on a
mission with one of the soldiers
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and they said, hey chaplain,
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we know that you
are here, we love you,
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but if that weapon,
the 50 cal goes down
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with the gunner on
the top of that truck,
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are you gonna be able to
get up there and help us out?
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And so, you know,
there was a huge--
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So that question
was proposed to you?
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It was proposed to me
and there's a politically
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correct answer and
then there's the answer
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that those soldiers want to hear
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and as their chaplain,
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you're an asset as far as
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you can make a
difference for them
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and I didn't want to
be just a lucky charm
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but I wanted to
be a valuable asset,
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spiritually, emotionally
and physically for them.
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Did ever get to that point
where you had to get on the 50?
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No.
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And you know, just
by way of regulation,
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chaplains are noncombatants,
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so we are not to carry weapons
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or to even be seen with one.
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And that's the
right answer all the time.
00:10:02.18\00:10:03.84
Okay.
00:10:03.87\00:10:05.04
But I had a different discussion
00:10:05.07\00:10:06.43
with those guys in that truck.
00:10:06.46\00:10:09.29
You know, as I listen,
00:10:09.32\00:10:11.63
can you image the impact
this had on their families,
00:10:11.66\00:10:15.89
their mothers,
their siblings, relatives.
00:10:15.92\00:10:19.63
How did this
impact your families
00:10:19.66\00:10:21.85
when you had to leave?
00:10:21.88\00:10:24.66
Well, it devastated my mother,
00:10:24.69\00:10:27.88
because you're going
from Detroit to Vietnam,
00:10:28.02\00:10:32.63
about 16,000 miles away
00:10:32.66\00:10:35.89
and your whole
outcome of life changes.
00:10:35.92\00:10:38.77
Instead of living
in the house or beds,
00:10:38.80\00:10:40.65
you're sleeping on the ground.
00:10:40.68\00:10:42.38
Not one day, every day.
00:10:42.45\00:10:45.51
Every day.
00:10:45.54\00:10:46.58
And you carried your house
on your back, in your rucksack.
00:10:46.61\00:10:50.48
Your helmet was your bathtub.
00:10:50.51\00:10:52.01
Wow.
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Everything, so you really --
00:10:53.12\00:10:54.83
it was a grunt out
there in the in the jungles.
00:10:54.86\00:10:56.91
I feel sorry for you
guys, because I mean--
00:10:56.94\00:10:59.41
Our Air Force--
00:10:59.44\00:11:01.16
I didn't have none of
that. Actually you know--
00:11:01.19\00:11:04.38
You seen any action?
00:11:04.41\00:11:05.44
Well, yes.
00:11:05.47\00:11:06.69
Actually I mean, we've
been bombed quite a bit
00:11:06.72\00:11:09.51
but we had
running water, we had--
00:11:09.54\00:11:12.66
Wow.
00:11:12.69\00:11:13.74
We had bathrooms and,
00:11:13.77\00:11:14.99
you know, it was just different.
00:11:15.02\00:11:17.44
I had a place
like I'm living here
00:11:17.47\00:11:19.55
and I didn't had
to sleep on the ground
00:11:19.60\00:11:21.63
but we were getting
bombed quite frequently
00:11:21.66\00:11:24.38
and so that was the
only negative point.
00:11:24.41\00:11:26.15
I was on the parameters of--
00:11:26.18\00:11:29.27
we were getting
shot at and bombed.
00:11:29.30\00:11:31.37
Well, I had a trenching tool.
00:11:31.40\00:11:32.59
You know trenching tool is?
00:11:32.62\00:11:33.71
No. A small shovel.
00:11:33.74\00:11:34.77
No. Yeah, wasn't
that small shovel?
00:11:34.80\00:11:36.39
That was my bathroom. Okay.
00:11:36.42\00:11:38.23
You used it quite a bit.
00:11:38.26\00:11:39.62
Oh, I had to, I had to.
00:11:39.65\00:11:41.05
Yes, take it out and
strike it in the ground
00:11:41.08\00:11:42.68
and do your thing.
00:11:42.71\00:11:43.74
You had to survive?
00:11:43.77\00:11:44.83
I had to survive.
You had to survive.
00:11:44.86\00:11:47.07
And you had running water?
00:11:47.10\00:11:48.42
Yeah, we had running water
I had to survive with that.
00:11:48.45\00:11:50.90
Now if we had
water we had to put
00:11:50.93\00:11:53.07
a little peel in our canteen
before we drink the water,
00:11:53.10\00:11:56.41
purification type.
00:11:56.44\00:11:57.60
Oh, we saw those
peels and I just felt
00:11:57.63\00:11:59.55
so bad for you guys.
00:11:59.58\00:12:01.32
So you didn't
have to use the peel?
00:12:01.35\00:12:03.18
No.
00:12:03.21\00:12:04.24
It was a different
time and era though.
00:12:04.27\00:12:06.28
No, I was just
about to say you where,
00:12:06.31\00:12:09.06
we-- you know,
00:12:09.09\00:12:10.13
I guess I had to say
that I was a low visor
00:12:10.16\00:12:13.71
because I knew I didn't
want to go and be a grunt.
00:12:13.74\00:12:16.47
Okay.
00:12:16.50\00:12:17.53
And I knew that Air Force--
00:12:17.56\00:12:18.60
You all knew that
term, you used that term?
00:12:18.63\00:12:20.26
Yes, and I knew Air
Force was my way out of that.
00:12:20.29\00:12:22.82
Oh, I see.
00:12:22.85\00:12:23.88
I didn't anticipate that
I was ever going to Vietnam.
00:12:23.91\00:12:26.54
But you did go to Vietnam.
00:12:26.61\00:12:28.06
After my first
year in the military.
00:12:28.16\00:12:29.83
Wow, and when you had got word
00:12:29.92\00:12:31.99
that you're going to Vietnam,
what did that do to your--
00:12:32.06\00:12:34.30
It was out breaking
because it was some dynamics
00:12:34.33\00:12:37.69
that really went up to that.
00:12:37.75\00:12:39.65
My brother who was
already in the military,
00:12:39.68\00:12:42.24
he was in the army and
he was stationed in Germany
00:12:42.27\00:12:44.66
and he was the one that really
00:12:44.69\00:12:46.16
convinced me to go to Air Force.
00:12:46.19\00:12:47.22
He said, if you got an
opportunity, go to Air Force.
00:12:47.25\00:12:49.10
So you know, I had
to go to Vietnam, right.
00:12:49.13\00:12:51.64
And when I finally
joined the Air Force,
00:12:51.67\00:12:55.67
I felt pretty comfortable
and pretty safe about that,
00:12:55.70\00:12:58.20
I'm not going to Vietnam.
00:12:58.23\00:12:59.67
After my first year in military
00:12:59.77\00:13:01.22
that's the first place
they sent me was to Vietnam.
00:13:01.25\00:13:04.03
You know, so I
wrote my brother a letter
00:13:04.06\00:13:06.29
with some few choices words,
00:13:06.32\00:13:07.87
you know, I had
to re-pen them later.
00:13:07.90\00:13:10.55
Because you ended up going.
00:13:10.58\00:13:12.81
Pastor, what was it
like when you had to tell
00:13:12.84\00:13:14.37
your parents and your
sisters and you were leaving?
00:13:14.40\00:13:17.29
How did they feel?
00:13:17.32\00:13:18.35
I think, you know, my
father having spent time
00:13:18.38\00:13:20.41
in the Air Force like yourself,
he was very supportive.
00:13:20.44\00:13:23.28
My mom was supportive
too but she was heartbroken.
00:13:23.31\00:13:27.04
She had lost her
brother in the army
00:13:27.07\00:13:29.86
through an
experience and I'm her only son.
00:13:29.89\00:13:32.95
So that was very
hard for them deal with.
00:13:32.98\00:13:35.10
I can imagine.
00:13:35.13\00:13:36.16
And I carried
their burden with me
00:13:36.19\00:13:37.74
because you don't
want to be that guy
00:13:37.77\00:13:40.92
to bring heartbreak
to your mom, you know.
00:13:40.95\00:13:43.04
Was any a time when you were
00:13:43.07\00:13:44.10
out of
communication with your family?
00:13:44.13\00:13:46.27
You know, being that it
was a more modern experience,
00:13:46.30\00:13:48.74
they had internet and that--
00:13:48.77\00:13:50.94
so I tried to
stay in pretty much
00:13:50.97\00:13:53.01
solid communication with them
00:13:53.04\00:13:54.85
but you didn't want
to tell them everything
00:13:54.88\00:13:56.54
because you didn't
want them to worry.
00:13:56.57\00:13:58.56
Sure.
00:13:58.59\00:13:59.62
You know, it's
just very difficult.
00:13:59.65\00:14:00.93
I'm about to go on a mission
and this maybe my last message.
00:14:00.96\00:14:03.38
Right. Right. Oh, no, no.
00:14:03.42\00:14:04.96
You we never did
that, you know, so--
00:14:04.99\00:14:06.67
What about
post-traumatic stress disorder
00:14:06.70\00:14:08.71
and dealing with issues as that,
00:14:08.74\00:14:10.87
Arthur, let's talk about
post-traumatic stress disorder.
00:14:10.91\00:14:12.21
Well, before we get to
the post-traumatic stress,
00:14:12.24\00:14:14.90
there's one thing
that I want to talk about.
00:14:14.93\00:14:16.67
I wanted to talk about
the combat experience itself.
00:14:16.70\00:14:19.88
So you were injured
while you were over there,
00:14:19.91\00:14:23.08
tell us about that.
00:14:23.11\00:14:25.78
Well, let me tell
you a little story.
00:14:25.82\00:14:30.07
I was out on patrol,
00:14:30.10\00:14:31.81
a point man was
shot right to the throat.
00:14:31.84\00:14:34.05
What?
00:14:34.08\00:14:35.41
And for three days we
had to carry the soldier,
00:14:35.45\00:14:38.61
'cause, you know the army motto,
00:14:38.64\00:14:40.94
never leave a soldier behind.
00:14:40.97\00:14:43.15
And this is about a
175- 80 pound of dead weight
00:14:43.18\00:14:47.63
plus all your--
00:14:47.66\00:14:48.93
For three days?
00:14:48.96\00:14:50.15
Yeah, for three days until
we had to go to our rendezvous
00:14:50.18\00:14:53.65
for the choppers
to come pick us up
00:14:53.68\00:14:56.01
And we got back
to our base camp,
00:14:56.04\00:14:59.34
writing love letters,
Sergeant Reinpi our squad lead,
00:14:59.37\00:15:03.64
he said, when you
go back on the tour,
00:15:03.67\00:15:06.17
you are on the point.
00:15:06.20\00:15:08.15
Now I'll remind
you that in my squad
00:15:08.18\00:15:10.88
I was the only black
00:15:10.91\00:15:13.15
and yet I outranked
all the other whites there.
00:15:13.18\00:15:16.67
So I was this token guy to
have to guard on the point.
00:15:16.70\00:15:21.05
Now the point, you
are about 20 meters
00:15:21.08\00:15:24.16
ahead of your squad of
the-- whatever the case is.
00:15:24.19\00:15:29.23
And every day,
you know, what I said,
00:15:29.26\00:15:32.18
if I get shot at,
I'm gonna kill this guy.
00:15:32.21\00:15:35.63
You was gonna
kill your squad leader?
00:15:35.66\00:15:37.07
I was gonna kill my
squad-- I'll kill him
00:15:37.10\00:15:39.07
because I was his token guy.
00:15:39.10\00:15:41.66
And every day he would
say, Gray, you did a good job.
00:15:41.69\00:15:44.90
Oh, blankey-blank,
using choice words.
00:15:44.93\00:15:49.11
Second day, man, I'm
proud, you did a good job,
00:15:49.14\00:15:51.70
blankety-blank.
00:15:51.73\00:15:53.40
I would bless him out.
00:15:53.43\00:15:55.87
Around the fourth
day out on the field
00:15:55.90\00:15:58.28
I'm out there just all of sudden
00:15:58.31\00:15:59.98
you hear the little tweak,
00:16:00.01\00:16:03.48
we hear something like that
00:16:03.51\00:16:04.77
because you train,
by training in Panama,
00:16:04.80\00:16:09.04
listening pulse
out there all night
00:16:09.07\00:16:11.46
listening for different
sounds you heard a little--
00:16:11.49\00:16:14.63
Oh, you heard it?
00:16:14.66\00:16:16.60
I heard it, because my
ears were well trained to sound.
00:16:16.63\00:16:22.63
So I get down, low
crawled about 12-15 meters
00:16:22.66\00:16:26.63
and all of
sudden that man shows up
00:16:26.66\00:16:29.83
I just pulled the trigger.
00:16:29.86\00:16:31.27
Wow.
00:16:31.30\00:16:32.34
Shot him right in the face.
00:16:32.37\00:16:35.64
And I had a shotgun at the time,
00:16:35.67\00:16:37.27
I'd walk and point in the bush.
00:16:37.30\00:16:39.76
One shot, pulled up my 45
00:16:39.79\00:16:42.74
and start lineup the area
and used all seven clips I had.
00:16:42.77\00:16:46.84
Every grenade I
had I threw at him.
00:16:46.87\00:16:48.96
That was my
goodness, I'm out of everything
00:16:48.99\00:16:51.25
but at the end of
that little fire fight
00:16:51.28\00:16:53.44
there were four guys dead
00:16:53.47\00:16:56.56
and we get back to
our fire support base
00:16:56.59\00:16:59.19
and the word came that,
00:16:59.22\00:17:01.37
Gray, the old
man want to see you.
00:17:01.40\00:17:03.76
Now the old man, you
know, it's a captain.
00:17:03.79\00:17:06.10
I said, oh, my goodness
00:17:06.13\00:17:07.48
I'm gonna be court-martialed
and going to jail
00:17:07.51\00:17:10.90
and everything for
being-- insubordinate of my,
00:17:10.93\00:17:14.67
to my sergeant.
00:17:14.70\00:17:16.78
I gonna see the
captain, he said, Gray,
00:17:16.81\00:17:19.37
I understand the problem
you had out on the field.
00:17:19.40\00:17:22.21
He said, Sergeant White put
you in before the bronze star
00:17:22.24\00:17:25.66
and here's your
corporal stripes.
00:17:25.69\00:17:27.96
My, my, my.
00:17:27.99\00:17:29.22
So you got your bronze star?
00:17:29.25\00:17:30.75
Yeah, that's how
I got a bronze star.
00:17:30.78\00:17:32.17
Excellent. Excellent.
00:17:32.20\00:17:34.41
Well, see I bet lot of
people didn't know that.
00:17:34.44\00:17:36.43
I didn't know that. It was that.
00:17:36.46\00:17:37.59
And you got the
purple heart as well, right?
00:17:37.62\00:17:40.98
Not only that, the
commendation medal,
00:17:41.01\00:17:45.95
purple heart.
00:17:45.98\00:17:48.15
Wow.
00:17:48.18\00:17:49.22
Now were you
injured during that time
00:17:49.25\00:17:50.72
when you were out in
the wilderness or combat?
00:17:50.75\00:17:52.97
No, this was during
the-- now after I leave '75
00:17:53.00\00:17:57.20
Thanksgiving '67,
00:17:57.23\00:17:58.77
we lost oh-- as we ended,
00:17:58.80\00:18:01.57
a 141 paratroopers were killed
during this fire big fighting.
00:18:01.60\00:18:06.81
The good Lord blessed me
not to get one scratch on me
00:18:06.84\00:18:09.55
but you round up by bodies.
00:18:09.58\00:18:12.00
And you have a lot of soldier
today who would not celebrate
00:18:12.03\00:18:15.97
Thanks giving
as because of that.
00:18:16.00\00:18:17.51
Is that right?
00:18:17.54\00:18:18.57
I went across a guy
fired in the Wal-Mart.
00:18:18.60\00:18:22.77
He had a one
semi-third patch up.
00:18:22.80\00:18:24.78
I said, hey trooper.
00:18:24.81\00:18:26.39
He said, airborne, you know,
00:18:26.42\00:18:28.96
and he started
telling me the story.
00:18:28.99\00:18:31.30
We sat, reminiscing, he
was in the same battalion
00:18:31.33\00:18:34.13
I was in Vietnam.
00:18:34.16\00:18:36.78
Matter of fact, he
called me this morning
00:18:36.81\00:18:39.75
and they also done a
documentary of all the guys
00:18:39.78\00:18:42.43
who served 173rd
because you don't see
00:18:42.46\00:18:44.95
too many guys that's
alive that served 173rd.
00:18:44.98\00:18:49.74
Wow.
00:18:49.77\00:18:51.01
While I went to the
173rd in May of '67,
00:18:51.04\00:18:55.83
they had 45 paratroopers
their couplings over-ran
00:18:55.86\00:18:59.81
and all of them were
starting to hit twice.
00:18:59.84\00:19:02.64
And down at Fort Campbell--
00:19:02.67\00:19:04.59
Executions. Was all executions.
00:19:04.62\00:19:06.74
Oh, my goodness.
00:19:06.77\00:19:08.50
While now, pastor,
you have a story or two
00:19:08.53\00:19:11.12
what you've seen and can you
gonna share something with us?
00:19:11.15\00:19:14.96
Yes, I would say a
month end to my tour in Iraq,
00:19:14.99\00:19:18.58
on my first tour
at the end of 2004
00:19:18.61\00:19:20.58
all the way to the end of 2005,
00:19:20.61\00:19:23.04
I was in my office
00:19:23.07\00:19:24.10
preparing for my
message for the following--
00:19:24.13\00:19:26.94
for the morning,
00:19:26.97\00:19:28.71
Sunday morning and
my chaplain assistant
00:19:28.74\00:19:30.80
ran to my office and said,
00:19:30.83\00:19:32.08
chaplain there's a C-130
down the airfield and you know,
00:19:32.11\00:19:35.94
I just kind of went
into a space of shock
00:19:35.97\00:19:37.98
because nothing
prepares you for that.
00:19:38.01\00:19:40.79
But I merely fell
back on my training
00:19:40.82\00:19:43.89
and grab my body
armor and my Kevlar
00:19:43.92\00:19:46.82
and my chaplain's kit
and jumped in the vehicle
00:19:46.85\00:19:50.09
and ran out to
the field with her.
00:19:50.12\00:19:51.61
And when I got there,
00:19:51.64\00:19:52.76
there were bodies
lying on the ground,
00:19:52.79\00:19:57.47
and you could
smell the JP-8 fuel
00:19:57.50\00:19:58.98
from the burning helicop--
from the burning C-130.
00:19:59.01\00:20:02.97
The medics were
attending to the bodies.
00:20:03.00\00:20:05.94
I saw the pilots drifting around
00:20:05.97\00:20:07.62
with that 1,000 mile steer.
00:20:07.65\00:20:09.36
They were lost.
00:20:09.39\00:20:10.50
And you know it
comes a point and time,
00:20:10.53\00:20:12.21
what do you do as a chaplain?
00:20:12.24\00:20:14.31
Do you minister to them
from the spiritual needs
00:20:14.34\00:20:17.28
or do you go to the immediate
needs of the physical stuff?
00:20:17.31\00:20:20.40
Well, the physical stuff
00:20:20.43\00:20:21.77
was being taken
care of by the medics.
00:20:21.80\00:20:23.79
So I knew my responsibility
was to minister to those people
00:20:23.82\00:20:26.67
and get their
minds in a right place.
00:20:26.70\00:20:28.72
Help the medics so that they
could do their job effectively
00:20:28.75\00:20:31.72
and then try to
minister to those soldiers
00:20:31.75\00:20:33.45
who were hurting and wounded.
00:20:33.48\00:20:34.95
And so as they were escorting
the bodies to the litter,
00:20:34.98\00:20:38.26
on the litter
to the helicopters,
00:20:38.29\00:20:39.58
the medevac helicopters,
00:20:39.61\00:20:40.78
I ran with them and pray
with them and encourage them.
00:20:40.81\00:20:44.12
And then there was an individual
00:20:44.15\00:20:45.27
on the ground completely naked.
00:20:45.30\00:20:46.41
They didn't know
what was wrong with him
00:20:46.44\00:20:47.83
and they stripped
all of his clothes,
00:20:47.86\00:20:48.97
why is this soldier unconscious.
00:20:49.00\00:20:50.95
And as I walked
up, I'm not quite sure
00:20:50.98\00:20:52.90
if the medics
knew I was a chaplain
00:20:52.93\00:20:54.24
because you get
all that stuff on
00:20:54.27\00:20:56.13
but it was almost as if they,
00:20:56.16\00:20:57.33
you know, the Red Sea
parted when I came up and I--
00:20:57.36\00:20:59.96
I came up they stop
doing what they were doing
00:20:59.99\00:21:02.27
and I knelt down and,
00:21:02.30\00:21:04.95
you know, it is
at that point of time
00:21:04.98\00:21:06.30
when the doctors have
done all that they can do.
00:21:06.33\00:21:08.40
You know, where
sometimes God shows up
00:21:08.43\00:21:11.19
and He used me to
pray for that person.
00:21:11.22\00:21:14.95
And the Lord blessed
00:21:14.98\00:21:16.07
and not one person
died from that experience.
00:21:16.10\00:21:18.63
Wow.
00:21:18.66\00:21:19.69
But that was my introduction
to war and it was after that,
00:21:19.72\00:21:22.36
that bad stuff started
happening all the time.
00:21:22.39\00:21:24.88
IED's were blown out
00:21:24.91\00:21:26.11
which is
improvised explosive devices.
00:21:26.14\00:21:28.40
We're transportation maintenance
00:21:28.43\00:21:29.91
so we are out on
the road constantly.
00:21:29.94\00:21:31.89
You know, it
was not a linear war
00:21:31.92\00:21:33.67
so the war was all around us.
00:21:33.70\00:21:35.80
We were getting
mortared every day
00:21:35.83\00:21:37.80
but going out outside the wire
00:21:37.83\00:21:40.17
which is off of
the base as you know,
00:21:40.20\00:21:43.40
we were always
constantly getting attacked.
00:21:43.43\00:21:45.36
And-- but it was
00:21:45.39\00:21:47.04
from those type of experiences
00:21:47.07\00:21:48.88
and I-- and you know,
00:21:48.91\00:21:50.48
there's a generational gap
00:21:50.51\00:21:52.17
between the battles and the wars
00:21:52.20\00:21:54.02
that we are in this same room
but I also got a bronze star
00:21:54.05\00:21:59.31
but it was quite
different experience, you know,
00:21:59.34\00:22:02.15
my journey being
shot at and blown up,
00:22:02.18\00:22:04.40
then actually carrying a weapon
00:22:04.43\00:22:06.24
and having to
defend my own life.
00:22:06.27\00:22:08.09
I'm sitting there waiting
for the other guys to do it
00:22:08.12\00:22:10.96
while I take care their
mental, spiritual welfare.
00:22:10.99\00:22:13.71
That's amazing.
00:22:13.74\00:22:14.78
You know, that both
of you have bronze stars,
00:22:14.81\00:22:16.89
we didn't know
that before the show.
00:22:16.92\00:22:18.90
And you know,
it's really tremendous,
00:22:18.93\00:22:21.55
I mean, our country owns
both of you a lot of debt.
00:22:21.58\00:22:25.06
One of the things
00:22:25.09\00:22:26.44
that I would like to ask
you about is coming back home.
00:22:26.47\00:22:31.12
Coming back home
was different for you,
00:22:31.15\00:22:34.71
as a Vietnam vet,
because in myself,
00:22:34.74\00:22:37.44
it was different.
00:22:37.47\00:22:38.73
But coming back home for
you was more of a celebration.
00:22:38.76\00:22:43.35
Absolutely.
00:22:43.38\00:22:45.21
Welcoming a hero.
00:22:45.24\00:22:46.64
Yes, indeed.
00:22:46.67\00:22:48.15
For you and me it
was like being degraded
00:22:48.18\00:22:52.30
and like how dare you
participate in that war?
00:22:52.33\00:22:56.01
I mean, I've had an experience
00:22:56.04\00:22:57.63
when I was-- when I studied
00:22:57.66\00:22:59.65
at University of Michigan,
00:22:59.68\00:23:01.22
I went out on a
date with this girl.
00:23:01.25\00:23:03.57
As we were talking,
00:23:03.60\00:23:06.82
we were talking
about our backgrounds
00:23:06.85\00:23:08.84
and I say, well, you know,
00:23:08.87\00:23:09.99
I just recently got out
of military and she paused,
00:23:10.02\00:23:13.50
she said, did you go to Vietnam?
00:23:13.53\00:23:15.46
I said, yes, and
she got up and left.
00:23:15.49\00:23:18.93
You know, because
that's what they thought.
00:23:18.96\00:23:20.69
Right.
00:23:20.72\00:23:21.76
You know, I saw her next day
00:23:21.79\00:23:22.92
she wanted to
apologize and I left.
00:23:22.95\00:23:25.23
So it was just--
00:23:25.26\00:23:28.00
we came home to a
lot of negativity.
00:23:28.03\00:23:33.36
How was that for you?
00:23:33.39\00:23:35.99
I came home with lot of guilt.
00:23:36.02\00:23:38.82
The guilt was killing
all those people in 'Nam.
00:23:38.85\00:23:42.76
And when I got wounded in 'Nam,
00:23:42.79\00:23:47.87
the devastating
part of it is that
00:23:47.90\00:23:50.41
I was the third
person on patrol.
00:23:50.44\00:23:54.05
Sergeant White said--
00:23:54.08\00:23:55.79
So you weren't on the
point during this time?
00:23:55.82\00:23:57.41
Oh, no, no, I was up
there in rank a little bit,
00:23:57.44\00:24:02.70
the experience, and
we had a dog with us,
00:24:02.73\00:24:06.76
you know, and the
dog was on the alert.
00:24:06.79\00:24:08.75
You know, when the
dog is on the alert
00:24:08.78\00:24:10.00
you have to call
in the headquarter,
00:24:10.03\00:24:12.33
let them know that
the dog is on the alert
00:24:12.36\00:24:15.12
and they give you some feedback,
00:24:15.15\00:24:18.25
be caution, do this, do this.
00:24:18.28\00:24:20.37
So we had to take
our weapons off safety
00:24:20.40\00:24:25.24
and put them on semi-automatic
00:24:25.27\00:24:27.60
because we knew that
something was happening.
00:24:27.63\00:24:30.57
So I was the
third person in line,
00:24:30.60\00:24:33.65
Sergeant White said,
move towards the rear
00:24:33.68\00:24:36.84
to cover the rear flank.
00:24:36.87\00:24:39.52
And as soon as I did
that, we was ambushed.
00:24:39.55\00:24:44.08
I mean, they
came from everywhere
00:24:44.11\00:24:47.69
and out of 14 of us on patrol,
00:24:47.72\00:24:49.86
11 of us was killed.
00:24:49.89\00:24:52.45
All 14 of us was wounded,
00:24:52.48\00:24:54.19
I mean, was hit and I'm one
of the three guy that survived,
00:24:54.22\00:24:58.85
I'm in better
shape than the other two.
00:24:58.88\00:25:01.68
When I was hit, I
was shot through the,
00:25:01.71\00:25:05.05
through the side,
00:25:05.08\00:25:06.91
the bullet came
out my bellybutton,
00:25:06.94\00:25:10.28
one bullet went
through my left thigh.
00:25:10.31\00:25:13.57
But the
devastating part about it,
00:25:13.60\00:25:15.26
when I looked at my
hand, my finger was gone.
00:25:15.29\00:25:18.95
Then I felt this warm stuff,
00:25:18.98\00:25:21.45
you know, just on my legs
00:25:21.48\00:25:23.17
that all my guts was blown up
00:25:23.20\00:25:25.92
and I just said oh, my goodness
00:25:25.95\00:25:28.05
this is my last day on earth.
00:25:28.08\00:25:30.71
You know, you could
just see the guys all around,
00:25:30.74\00:25:34.95
just fallen and crying
00:25:34.98\00:25:36.34
and crying for
their mother and kin.
00:25:36.37\00:25:38.14
These are 19, 20
year old kids, you know.
00:25:38.17\00:25:41.94
I was 19, I got shot.
00:25:41.97\00:25:43.99
Nineteen years
old. Nineteen years old.
00:25:44.02\00:25:46.37
Like a child.
00:25:46.40\00:25:47.52
And yet we go and kill,
00:25:47.55\00:25:49.88
but when we came
home back in six weeks,
00:25:49.91\00:25:52.45
couldn't buy beer,
you couldn't do this,
00:25:52.48\00:25:55.00
you couldn't do that
00:25:55.03\00:25:56.29
but you're old
enough to go and kill.
00:25:56.32\00:25:57.52
Right. Right.
00:25:57.55\00:25:58.58
That was one of things
00:25:58.61\00:25:59.65
that was talked
about quite frequently.
00:25:59.68\00:26:01.89
Yes.
00:26:01.92\00:26:03.39
You know, that you're old
enough to go to the military
00:26:03.42\00:26:05.61
and go fight but
you're not own enough
00:26:05.64\00:26:07.39
to come back and vote
00:26:07.42\00:26:08.60
or go to a liquor
store or do anything.
00:26:08.63\00:26:11.06
Yeah, couldn't do anything.
00:26:11.09\00:26:12.71
You know, for those
who were drinking liquor
00:26:12.74\00:26:14.96
it was just
something that they used
00:26:14.99\00:26:17.43
as some type of political ploy
00:26:17.46\00:26:20.57
Well, we only have
about two minutes left
00:26:20.60\00:26:22.35
but we'll be right back
00:26:22.38\00:26:23.96
with a little
bit more information
00:26:23.99\00:26:25.80
about service and the military.
00:26:25.83\00:26:27.60
Arthur, I wanted to
talk about in closing,
00:26:38.33\00:26:40.33
to go back to
post-traumatic stress disorder.
00:26:40.36\00:26:42.86
Okay.
00:26:42.89\00:26:43.96
Pastor, let's talk
about post-traumatic stress
00:26:43.99\00:26:45.72
and what it's done to the people
00:26:45.75\00:26:47.57
who have come back home.
00:26:47.60\00:26:49.05
Post-traumatic
stress is a serious issue
00:26:49.08\00:26:51.03
that America has to deal with
00:26:51.06\00:26:53.71
because you have hundreds
of thousands of soldiers.
00:26:53.74\00:26:55.77
It's less than one
percent of the population
00:26:55.80\00:26:57.88
but there is hundreds
of thousands of soldiers
00:26:57.91\00:26:59.66
that are left
to deal and grapple
00:26:59.69\00:27:01.48
with their
experience over there.
00:27:01.51\00:27:03.08
Post-traumatic
stress is very high.
00:27:03.11\00:27:05.88
I talked to some
World War II veterans
00:27:05.91\00:27:07.55
and they say we didn't really
had to deal with that too much
00:27:07.58\00:27:09.83
because we were
trying to get a job
00:27:09.86\00:27:11.67
but the impact that it's left
00:27:11.70\00:27:14.30
with the soldiers today
is really a detoxification.
00:27:14.33\00:27:18.23
How to
reestablish relationships,
00:27:18.26\00:27:19.86
how to go back and
work in McDonald's,
00:27:19.89\00:27:22.00
mopping floors when you
were ruling a world over here?
00:27:22.03\00:27:24.73
And so you have folks
00:27:24.76\00:27:25.93
that are having
difficulty in their marriages.
00:27:25.96\00:27:28.49
I heard the other
day that 18 soldiers
00:27:28.52\00:27:30.77
a month are committing suicide.
00:27:30.80\00:27:33.15
This is a psychological
impact that's left with them
00:27:33.18\00:27:36.01
when they find that
there's no other route
00:27:36.04\00:27:38.59
to manage their problems
00:27:38.62\00:27:40.16
and they are checking
themselves out on life.
00:27:40.19\00:27:42.19
And as a chaplain,
00:27:42.22\00:27:43.26
it's been my
responsibility to educate them.
00:27:43.29\00:27:46.28
When you are dealing
with the worst experience
00:27:46.31\00:27:49.40
that you ever
thought you could imagine,
00:27:49.43\00:27:52.20
how do you sustain in the worse
00:27:52.23\00:27:55.95
that life has to throw at you?
00:27:55.98\00:27:57.24
And so we try to teach soldiers
the methods of survival.
00:27:57.27\00:28:00.24
Okay. Okay.
00:28:00.27\00:28:02.53
Well, I mean, there's so
much to talk about and so much--
00:28:02.56\00:28:06.15
will you come back
and be with us again?
00:28:06.18\00:28:07.78
Yes.
00:28:07.81\00:28:08.84
Because, I mean,
there's so much more
00:28:08.87\00:28:09.90
we need to talk about.
00:28:09.93\00:28:11.25
Listen, I'm Dr.
Kim Logan Nowlin.
00:28:11.28\00:28:13.16
And I'm Arthur Nowlin.
00:28:13.19\00:28:14.22
And thank you for joining us
00:28:14.25\00:28:15.71
on another program
of "Making it Work."
00:28:15.74\00:28:18.22