Participants: Dr. Kim Logan-Nowlin (Host), Arthur Nowlin (Host), Leslie Hightower, Maya Hightower
Series Code: MIW
Program Code: MIW000006
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00:01 Hi, I'm Dr. Kim Logan-Nowlin. And I'm Arthur Nowlin.
00:04 Welcome to "Making It Work." 00:38 Our topic today "Children Of Incarcerated Parents." 00:42 A very serious topic, 00:44 a topic that's hitting home more and more everyday. 00:47 Arthur, I want to share some statistics with you. 00:50 Okay. 00:52 In the United States in 1999 about two percent 00:55 of our minors more than 1.5 million children 01:00 had a parent in state of federal prison. 01:04 Ten percent of all minor children 01:07 7.3 million children have a parent in prison, 01:12 jail or on probation or on parole. 01:15 Amen. 01:16 The source the National Centre for Children 01:19 and Families in Washington, DC, 01:22 October 31st, 2002. 01:25 Give me some feedback on that. 01:27 It's amazing and at this point, 01:30 I could see that is-- would even get greater. 01:33 We're dealing in some real difficult economic times 01:36 and people are willing to take risk. 01:39 Risk their freedom and the next thing you know 01:43 we're talking about incarceration. 01:45 Well, this is also as you said has impacted 01:47 financial stability, 01:49 relationship with their children. 01:50 Absolutely. 01:51 The children social skills 01:52 and keeping their children balanced. 01:55 Well, today on our program we have two special guests, 01:59 Leslie and Maya Hightower. 02:01 Welcome to "Making It Work." Thank you. 02:03 Hi. How you doing? 02:04 Fine. Good. 02:06 Well, we know over last few years 02:08 she's been experiencing some difficulty. 02:11 Why don't you tell us your story? 02:13 Well, my husband went to federal prison 02:18 because of selling drugs and he just put a strain on me 02:23 because I had to do everything about myself. 02:26 But luckily I have family, 02:28 friends to help me financially and spiritually. 02:32 And it was kind of difficult 02:34 at first dealing with my daughter 02:36 'cause she was really going through some hard times. 02:39 And I felt you know maybe she needed 02:41 to talk to a counsellor so I did that 02:44 and it helped her 02:45 and than we got along and you know lot better. 02:47 Okay, how long did she see a therapist? 02:50 It was less than a year. 02:52 Just a little while to get her acclimated to, 02:55 you know, the situation. 02:57 How old was she then? Nine. 03:00 She was nine-years-old. 03:02 Maya, how did you feel, I mean going to a therapist 03:05 to talk about some of the things 03:06 that you were experiencing? 03:08 Well, I felt sort of, you know, scared or, you know, 03:15 just little weird or awkward and but it helped, it did. 03:22 Okay. 03:23 Can you tell me like, what was some of the things 03:27 that you were dealing with some of the problems 03:30 that you were encountering? 03:38 Basically just little hurt and yeah-- 03:43 Yeah, yeah. 03:45 Well, I can understand that being hurt, you know, 03:47 how did you feel and when you were told 03:51 that your father was going to be arrested? 03:56 Well, I wasn't really told, I was basically, you know, 03:59 there so it was deep. 04:02 It was deep. 04:03 So you were there when they arrested your father? 04:05 Yes. 04:06 That's a lot for a little girl to experience. 04:10 Let me ask you, how often do you talk to your father? 04:13 I usually talk to him every Sabbath 04:16 or if I don't talk to him then probably twice a month. 04:21 Twice a month, was that ever a period 04:23 when you did not talk to your father? 04:27 What do you mean didn't talk to him? 04:28 When he was arrested, was it ever a period 04:30 that you never talk to him or even after he got arrested 04:34 and he was sentenced, you continued 04:36 the communication with your father? 04:39 That's beautiful. 04:40 Leslie, you said one thing about transition. 04:43 I mean, and I'm using the word transition, 04:46 I mean at one point you were living a lifestyle 04:50 that was comfortable for you and then all of a sudden 04:55 that lifestyle was interrupted. 04:57 How did that impact you? 05:01 It was hard but, you know, I always knew that 05:04 material things were not really that important 05:07 when you're dealing with family. 05:09 Family is more important so-- as long as I had, 05:12 you know, my daughter and make sure she was okay, 05:15 I was fine. 05:16 That brings up another question. 05:19 If you felt that the material things 05:22 were not that important to you and then your husband felt 05:25 that it was very important to you 05:27 what kind of conflict was it having within the household? 05:31 It was-- it was a conflict because I would say, 05:34 you know, its not is more important 05:36 than you being home with the family. 05:39 So he felt opposite so things happened. 05:43 Absolutely, well. 05:45 Okay, Leslie, what as a mother did you do 05:50 to try to give support? 05:52 'Cause you saw the anger, you saw her disappointed 05:55 and I'm sure she was going through some changes. 05:58 What type of structure did you have to do 06:01 when you talk about transition, 06:03 what did you do to help pull her back, 06:05 pull her back to you? 06:07 Spend time with her and you know make sure 06:11 she was surrounded by positive things. 06:13 Okay, all right. 06:14 I know church is a great influence 06:16 and your relationship and I always was said in Maya, 06:20 you know it was so good to see a smile on her face. 06:23 Even when all this happening, 06:24 I would always see here smile even your continents. 06:27 What was-- what was the formula for that? 06:29 The Lord. 06:30 Okay. 06:31 The Lord has really helped me through a lot of stuff 06:34 so give then honor and glory to Him. 06:37 That's a good point because you both, you know, 06:40 you and your husband were raised in the church 06:43 and then all of a sudden something happened 06:46 and split came. 06:49 Did you have any idea or did you sense anything 06:53 that was causing this diversity between the both of you? 06:58 I know the devil is busy in, you know, 07:01 he really cares about the family 07:03 so he started to do things to try to keep I guess 07:07 the lifestyle that he wanted. 07:09 So that's what happened. 07:12 So bringing it back to the relation 07:14 with you and your husband and the marriage, 07:17 you were in a marriage. 07:19 How long have you been married? 07:21 I can't remember the exact year now 07:24 but it was got married in 92. 07:26 92, so being in a situation where you have a relationship 07:34 and then it begins to deviate you know, 07:36 how you dealt with your own self as a women 07:38 being married, your husband is incarcerated 07:42 and I know at times you are lonely, 07:44 you need that relationship, how have you cope with that? 07:48 Stay busy and you know focus on the Lord 07:51 and I'm in school so that helps 07:54 to take up the extra time that I have on my hands. 07:57 Now you are in school, what are you studying? 07:58 Surgical technology. 08:00 Okay. Why that field? 08:03 It's-- to give me a good presence of a stability 08:09 and financial stability. 08:11 And that's what you need for your daughter, 08:13 you and your daughter. 08:14 Maya, I'm thinking you know, 08:18 dad is not in home, you can't touch him, 08:21 you can't go to the store with him 08:23 or he can't wrestle with you now that. 08:28 Is that hard for you deal within times. 08:31 At times it is hard but then you just got to think-- 08:34 keep thinking positive and think that 08:38 he will be home soon and keep praying about him. 08:41 Okay. 08:42 And when is his date of release? 08:45 March or six months after that. 08:47 Of 2012. 2012. 08:49 Okay. 08:50 You know Maya, did your grade slip, 08:53 did your grades fall? 08:57 I'm not sure. Did my grades fall? 08:59 During this time? 09:00 Not-- not really. 09:01 So grade stayed well. 09:03 Did you and mom, did mom have to, you know, 09:06 Maya, don't do this. 09:07 Maya, stop this. 09:08 Maya, did you try to use this as a excuse to be, 09:12 you know, disobedient? 09:13 It might have been pretty well for me 09:15 at the beginning but calm down. 09:18 You came to your senses? 09:20 All right, that's a good thing to come to your sense, right. 09:22 All right. 09:24 Can you give me some idea of probably would have-- 09:26 would be one of the career fear fields 09:29 that you've chosen for yourselves. 09:30 Something that you thought about 09:31 being when you graduated from college or high school. 09:36 I thought about being a nurse or a sports medicine doctor. 09:41 Okay. Okay, I guess you can make it. 09:44 All right, that's great. 09:45 Now have you been to the facility 09:49 where your father is to see him in person? 09:51 Yes. Tell us about that. 09:54 Well, it's different. It's different. 09:59 And you just basically check in you got to take off 10:04 a lot to you know, and you just walk back into the-- 10:09 they take you in going through the thing and-- 10:12 The security. 10:14 The security after you pass that thing 10:16 you are walking outside sort of and you see the tall bars there 10:22 and then you walk into the-- it's a room. 10:24 And it's a pretty big size room and there is lots of chairs 10:30 and there's little outside opening 10:33 where you can like go outside and sit. 10:35 All right. 10:36 Also one thing, you have the opportunity to hug him 10:40 and touch him and it's not a glass or partition 10:43 that's separating you. 10:45 You know, you get a chance to get that good hug 10:47 and before you leave and stuff like that. 10:49 Yeah. That's excellent. 10:51 What do you all talk about? 10:52 Can you share that with us, what do you talk about? 10:54 We talk about school and life at home. 11:01 And we talk about when he comes back. 11:04 Well, some of the things that he wants to do for you, 11:07 when he comes back. 11:09 Oh, no, the basics anytime and the ropes 11:14 what he asked to do before he came out, stabilize again. 11:20 Has he apologized to you? 11:23 Did he said, he was sorry or anything? 11:25 Okay, how did that make you feel? 11:29 It makes me feel, 11:31 it helps like, it helps comfort. 11:33 Very good, very good. 11:34 You know, Maya, everything in life and Leslie, 11:36 and I've learned that in with Arthur, 11:38 in our own family even with God we have choices. 11:42 It comes down to the right choices 11:44 or the wrong choices. 11:46 And you have to look at your lives today 11:48 as what you have to do to make right choices. 11:51 What would you say to a mother or parent going through this 11:55 because we also have women who are incarcerated? 11:58 What would you say to someone this has been four years, 12:01 you were nine old now you are 13, Maya? 12:04 Yes. It's been four years. 12:06 What would you say to those our viewers today? 12:08 What would you say? 12:11 To always have faith and to trust in the Lord 12:17 and don't get angry and just realize 12:20 that everyone is just a step away 12:23 from doing something that they might regret. 12:27 So just stay focus on the Lord. 12:29 Focus on the Lord. Maya? 12:31 I say hanging there 'cause it can rough 12:35 but just praying while they are in, 12:37 God will work things out. 12:39 Maya, were your peers supportive to you 12:41 when they found out that your father was incarcerated 12:43 or did you talk about it within your peers. 12:46 Yes, I talk to it with a few friends 12:49 and some of my friends are in a same situation. 12:52 So yeah, they're supportive and the school 12:55 that I go to Pearson One Academy. 13:00 Someone there my friends father was incarcerated too. 13:05 Is that right? So he talked to me to-- 13:08 And he's released now? Excellent. 13:09 And he's talked to you. That's wonderful. 13:12 Leslie, were you angry? 13:17 Oh, yes, a little bit. Yeah, I was angry. 13:19 How did you get over with that? 13:23 Just knowing that I'm not perfect in everybody, 13:26 you know, makes mistakes and just keep-- 13:30 keep having the faith. 13:31 That sounds too easy. It's been lot-- 13:33 Come on, you-- you want to hit a punching bag. 13:36 Did you want to hit somebody? 13:37 I mean, your whole life has changed now 13:41 and we had opportunity to visit your home. 13:44 And but-- one thing I can say about you, 13:46 you would always say Kim, they're just things. 13:50 You will never attach to those things 13:51 and I think that is so important 13:53 'cause you have people who are so attached 13:56 to their homes and cars and lifestyle. 13:58 Yeah. I mean I understand that. 13:59 You know, you're right they are people 14:01 who are attached to things. 14:04 But Leslie, was never attached. 14:06 She never gave us that impression. 14:07 But come on, Les, come on, did you want-- 14:09 I mean, I was-- I was angry but I just-- 14:13 I just you know. 14:15 Maybe I was too soft. Did you cry? 14:17 Did you cry? 14:19 Did you find moments of you just-- 14:21 I was you know I was more sad for my girls 14:24 and him than really me myself. 14:27 How did you get to that point though? 14:28 I mean where you were more sad for the girls 14:31 and you know and for him. 14:33 You know but how did you get to that point? 14:35 I mean what was going? 14:37 I understand that you said earlier 14:38 it was faith that kept you going through. 14:41 How did you get to the point where you just 14:44 relinquish those feelings? 14:46 I mean, 'cause like Kim, was saying you see like, 14:49 you wanted to give him 14:50 a knuckle sandwich or something. 14:52 He said, he was sorry and you know I just 14:55 couldn't condemn him because you know 14:57 I had to you know stand before the Lord too. 15:00 That's right. Very good. 15:01 I just couldn't you know. 15:03 And it's crucial we as families today 15:06 and how we help to make it work? 15:08 We have to have a forgiving heart. 15:09 We have to recognize that we too are sinners saved by grace 15:15 and that we must have forgiveness 15:18 because we make mistakes. 15:20 I like the one thing about Maya, 15:22 and again this Maya but her attitude. 15:25 Attitude is everything. 15:26 You know, how you approached 15:28 it when you went to see your father. 15:29 You walked in there and you will be angry, right. 15:32 But you didn't, you came in. 15:34 Well, I know you had to be alone nervous, 15:35 were you nervous? 15:37 I was a little nervous but-- 15:38 The first time, how many times have you been to see him? 15:42 Probably three. 15:44 Three times, all right. 15:46 You know so you get your support 15:47 from your grandparents? 15:50 Your mom's parents 15:52 and recently you lost your grandfather. 15:54 Again our deepest condolences of losing, 15:57 you know, your father. 15:59 A rock in the church, a pillar in a church 16:01 but Brother Chester will have but at the same time 16:05 being able to look at how are you gonna 16:07 keep your family together. 16:08 You know because you moved from your home 16:10 back in with your parents. 16:12 All right, tell us about that. 16:16 That wasn't difficult but it was-- 16:20 I was glad that I actually moved back 16:23 because and them I could spend some more time 16:24 with my father before he passed. 16:26 So you know things work out for a reason. 16:29 Yes, it does and you were there with your father. 16:32 Yeah, it was difficult, I can imagine 16:34 because once again we're talking about 16:36 that transition, you know, 16:38 and now you're looking at moving your life 16:42 to a different plank. 16:45 So I have to ask this question, 16:48 is there any possibility of reconciling? 16:55 No. Okay. 16:56 Okay. 16:58 I mean that was my initial, 17:01 I guess hope but well no. 17:07 Okay, and has he talked to you or you know. 17:10 Oh, we-- we talk. Okay. 17:12 Have you gone to see him, Leslie? 17:14 No. 17:15 Would that be hard for you to do? 17:18 No, it wouldn't be hard. 17:19 Okay, but this is not about you right now, 17:22 it's about your daughter and her relationship. 17:25 I wanted to share something else with you 17:27 and I think it'll be very important for you 17:29 to know this too, Maya. 17:32 "Since 1997, the frequency of contact between 17:36 children and their parents in federal prison has dropped, 17:40 has dropped. 17:42 Monthly contact has decreased by 23 percent." 17:45 So I'm so happy to hear 17:47 that you have gone to see your father 17:50 and that is by the Research and Advocacy 17:52 for Reform, February 2009. 17:56 Statistically it has dropped. 17:58 Children are no longer in contact with their parents. 18:01 They have cut them off. 18:02 Excuse me for interrupting. 18:03 Another aspect has to be involved with that. 18:06 Here what you are saying, we got our statistics 18:08 but as I work with this population 18:12 I also recognize that a lot of the fathers 18:17 that maybe in a particular area 18:20 where their children or families 18:22 were are sent to long distance, 18:26 long distances away from the family. 18:28 We're talking about people that may go to Virginia 18:32 or Kansas City for London or so different areas 18:36 which can be taxing on the family 18:38 and difficult for them to make that contact. 18:40 So that's one of the reasons that I can see that drop. 18:43 Right. 18:44 Well, we have to take in all the considerations. 18:47 I want to also say having incarcerated parents 18:50 also results in school behavior. 18:52 But Maya, you said that your performances 18:54 have been good as well as 18:56 social contacts didn't much in shame. 19:00 Is there any shame or guilt that you're feeling? 19:05 Probably I feel-- probably say at the beginning. 19:08 At the beginning. 19:10 Okay. 19:11 That's really good to because also 19:13 in some of the research that I have to looked 19:16 at it indicated that a lot of the children 19:20 in their opportunity to show displeasure 19:27 and what occur what they would do 19:29 is not perform in school. 19:33 They will rebel and that's a concern 19:37 because sometimes what happens is the children 19:40 will follow a path of a rebellion 19:43 and that will cost up to look at things 19:46 in a real negative way. 19:48 But what's really important is that you some behavior 19:52 and you addressed that behavior. 19:54 Almost definitely and then with you, 19:56 now you're 10 years and we don't want you 20:00 looking for love in all the wrong places. 20:01 Daughter love their fathers. 20:03 Daughter need their fathers, they need their parents. 20:06 So mom is serving two roles, your father is incarcerated 20:09 but he not he is not deceased and he is not dead in your life 20:13 but as you develop and as you grow, 20:16 I want to encourage you Maya, 20:18 to continue to focus on what God needs you to do 20:21 and not look for anyway to escape 20:23 what is around you 20:25 or try to manipulate your situation 20:27 but address your life in honest and godly manner and, 20:31 and continue to talk to your mom. 20:32 Do you have a good relationship with your mother? 20:36 And I see how close you are. 20:37 Oh, what do you expect 20:38 her momma sitting right next to her. 20:41 But I know what I know for a fact that you have 20:44 a good relationship with your mom 20:46 and you love your mother. 20:47 You know, you love your father? 20:49 Yeah. 20:50 Okay, you tell him that when you talk to him? 20:53 Okay, are you ever loss of words 20:56 what to say to him when you see him 20:58 or talk to him on the phone? 20:59 Sometimes. 21:01 Yes, I think that's a legitimate. 21:02 You know, why do you think 21:03 that is that you are in loss of words? 21:06 Just because you know, it's not personal, 21:09 I'm not always like a phone found person. 21:12 So-- 21:13 That's a good point. 21:15 You really impressing me because you seem to be 21:18 handling this whole situation really, really well. 21:22 And I have to really, really encourage you to continue 21:26 to look to a real bright future. 21:28 I like the way you communicate, 21:29 you have a real good positive communication skills 21:33 and I know ever see you see where you are loss for words. 21:38 So it was kind of hard for me to really believe. 21:41 There are certain times, you know, 21:42 I have some to say on a telephone. 21:44 And, Maya, let me ask you, 21:46 what do you and your mom do together? 21:48 What kind of things you all share together? 21:51 We talk and you know we can go places. 21:55 Okay, you both play basketball. 21:57 You know and you both and you play tennis? 22:01 Do you like tennis? Always ready for tennis. 22:03 I love tennis. Every show I talk about tennis. 22:05 I love getting into tennis this summer. 22:07 I haven't seen Kim, play tennis in years. 22:10 He's at the golf course. 22:12 When is the last time you play though? 22:13 But he is at the golf-- on the Wii. 22:15 When is the last time you played tennis? 22:17 On the Wii. I play it on the Wii. 22:18 I play on the Wii all the time. 22:20 All right, why doesn't the Wii count? 22:22 That means 'cause you're not on the court. 22:24 I'm on the court. Isn't that on the court? 22:26 That is serious game on the Wii 22:28 but a lot of things that you share together 22:31 that is crucial to the relationship. 22:33 Maya, I have another question I want to ask you. 22:37 Women and young ladies are going to prison 22:40 and they say due to the fact and this again 22:43 is the Bureau of Justice Statistics in 2005, 22:48 young ladies and women are going to prison 22:52 because they're finding themselves getting in trouble. 22:54 My father is in prison, my mother's in prison. 22:56 So they're repeating the behavior 22:59 because it's something-- they're using this as an excuse 23:03 to not function or to do well. 23:05 What can you say to those individuals? 23:09 That's a good question. 23:11 You know, how to help them as they're on point. 23:13 Look at you, you're not out there you know, 23:17 destroying property mommy is not being 23:19 called to the school every three days. 23:22 You haven't been arrested for any vandalism 23:24 or problems or doing drugs and alcohol. 23:26 You know, why is it or what can you say to them 23:30 just say, you know I heard you say, stay focus, 23:33 stay with God. 23:34 But what's keeping you out of trouble? 23:38 Me. 23:39 Your momma said, you already. 23:40 That's right, you know-- 23:42 Is that desire inside of you 23:44 that you want to prove statistics wrong 23:46 that you are not gonna be a statistics 23:48 and become like you know other children 23:51 who end up in prison, because their parents 23:53 were in prison. 23:54 I think also you had to look at it from 23:57 another perspective which is, 24:00 we're talking about economic status, 24:04 we're talking about community status. 24:07 If someone is in that environment 24:11 then we're looking at a strong possibility 24:13 that they may succumb to that type of lifestyle. 24:18 Maya, is not really in that environment. 24:21 We're talking about Maya has a lot of support 24:24 and that's really the key to this entire situation. 24:28 Maya, has a strong support system with her parents, 24:31 her family, her church family, 24:34 her school and she's always doing some, she's is active. 24:38 She is not really missing out on a lot of things. 24:40 Well, then I got to-- I got to stop you there 24:42 because her father was raised in the church. 24:45 Mother and father had successful business. 24:47 He was nothing was deprived him. 24:50 But it was a choice he made. 24:52 You know I so you have to look at the fact 24:54 that these are choices that are made by individuals. 24:56 Yes, but with them we're talking about once again 24:59 and I don't want to, you know, 25:00 really debate with you in regards to that. 25:03 I'm just-- what I'm saying is that Maya support system 25:07 and her-- her that support is offering her 25:13 the tools that's required for her to be successful in life. 25:17 And then we're talking about constant support 25:20 and once again, you had a mother 25:22 who is able to recognize particular behavior 25:25 and do something about it. 25:27 Well, I'm glad for mothers, they say the one that rocks 25:30 the cradle rules the world. 25:33 You know, well, listen I think it's so important 25:36 that you know we're able to look at situations, 25:40 look at different perspectives, 25:42 be able to help our viewers understand 25:43 because again this is a not-- this is not a easy topic, 25:48 it's not easy as especially 25:50 because we know them both so well 25:52 and we have watched this situation 25:54 up close and personal. 25:56 We have prayed for you, we have had the opportunity 25:59 to take your daughter with us on trips. 26:02 As you extended yourself to our daughter Micah, 26:04 many, many times. 26:05 That's my buddy, she got my buddy. 26:07 You got my buddy. 26:08 You know so-- we do things when we go 26:12 and we explore things and I have never at any time 26:16 and I want you to know that try to pin up against the wall 26:20 and say to her, what's going on with her father? 26:23 What's going on at home? 26:24 Because I see her as a individual 26:27 and I respect her as a individual. 26:29 And you are more than this situation, 26:32 do you realize that? 26:33 You are Maya Hightower. 26:35 You are more than what this experience 26:37 but it's what you bring out of this experience. 26:40 That's all of us is what we bring out of this experience. 26:42 It's what she learned from this experience. 26:44 She's learned something that she can pass 26:46 on to other people. 26:48 Oh, definitely. 26:49 Whether she be a nurse or she may even chose 26:52 to move to another area like law enforcement 26:56 or be a lawyer in some particular way, 26:58 prosecuting attorney or defense attorney 27:01 because of your experience 27:02 with the prison system and the legal system. 27:06 That must have been devastated to be in the home 27:09 and somebody come in and take your father 27:12 out of the home in handcuffs. 27:14 It was that difficult for you? Yeah. 27:17 And you never want to have that experience happened to you? 27:19 Now that's a learned lesson. 27:22 Listen, we'll be right back with more information 27:26 on "Children of Incarcerated Parents" in a few minutes. 27:41 Welcome back to "Making It Work." 27:44 Leslie and Maya, we want to thank you 27:46 both for being our guests. 27:47 It's been great, great. 27:48 And all the information you've given, 27:50 we want you to know that there's hope for your family. 27:53 Don't give up even if the relationship 27:56 is un-reconcilable as a decision only you God 28:00 and your spouse can make. 28:01 But remember keep God first 28:04 and remember to help your children. 28:07 Thank you, our viewers. 28:09 I'm Dr. Kim Logan-Nowlin. 28:10 And I'm Arthur Nowlin. 28:12 Let's continue to "Make It Work." 28:14 God bless. |
Revised 2015-05-21