Participants: Willie Oliver, Elaine Oliver
Series Code: MGH
Program Code: MGH000060
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00:29 Welcome to Marriage In God's Hands.
00:32 I'm Willie Oliver, Director of Family Ministries 00:34 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America. 00:37 I'm Elaine Oliver, Willie's partner in ministry. 00:39 And a Marriage and Family Consultant 00:42 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church in North America. 00:44 We're delighted you could join us today. 00:47 Today we're going to be talking about a topic we've titled 00:50 "Forgive or Forget" 00:52 In every marriage, there is some rain that falls. 00:58 Sooner or later, someone does something or says something 01:04 that upsets his or her partner. 01:06 Because there are no perfect people, 01:10 there are no perfect marriages. 01:11 And whether or not I am doing it on purpose, 01:15 if I live long enough and I stay married long enough, 01:19 I'm going to say something or do something 01:22 that Elaine doesn't like. 01:24 Well forgiveness certainly is a vital ingredient 01:27 in maintaining oneness in marriage. 01:30 When I was a kid and going through the Bible 01:33 and studying the Bible and learning about the 01:35 concept of forgiveness, I remember when I first came 01:38 across the text about forgive seventy times seven. 01:41 And at the time, I did not know multiplication that well. 01:45 And I just thought, wow, that's a lot of forgiveness. 01:49 Seventy times seven. 01:51 And that's exactly what God intends for us to do. 01:54 Imagine if, as a child I didn't know, it just seemed infinite. 01:59 That is exactly what God intends for us 02:02 when He talks about forgiveness. 02:04 And that's what God wants us to know. 02:06 That's the attitude He wants us to have. 02:08 To recognize that He forgives us. 02:10 He's forgiven us and because He's forgiven us, 02:12 we ought to forgive one another. 02:14 Because that is the nature of God. 02:17 And if we want to be like God and we want to have 02:20 Godly marriages, we want to follow Gods way, 02:23 we want to follow Gods lead, 02:24 we want to do it the way He does it. 02:27 And God certainly does provide us with a lot of scripture 02:31 on the topic of forgiveness. 02:33 And we're going to start with one from the book of Luke 6:37. 02:49 It appears to me that what God is saying is 02:52 you really have no right to hold it against your husband or wife. 02:56 You really have no right to withhold forgiveness because, 03:01 "I have forgiven you multiple times. 03:03 In fact, I have forgiven you so many times, 03:07 I have chosen not to remember. 03:09 And when you confess, I throw your sins 03:12 to the depths of the sea. " 03:15 So, when you're in marriage where being God like... 03:18 that's what marriage is like. 03:20 It's a reflection of the Godhead, the oneness of God; 03:24 Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. 03:25 That is also what happens with husbands and wives. 03:28 We are one, and like Jesus and the church, one. 03:32 That union needs to be reflective 03:36 of what happens in the Godhead. 03:38 And we have the word of God to lead us in understanding this 03:43 forgiveness and how we can do it. 03:46 Ephesians 4:32 also says to us: 03:57 And that's exactly what you've been saying 03:59 about the fact that God forgives us every day. 04:03 And we do have a responsibility to forgive our spouse. 04:07 We know that inevitably there is going to be some wrong 04:11 that is done to the other person. 04:14 Whether it's on purpose, or most often than not, not on purpose. 04:19 And so there is going to be a need for forgiveness 04:23 in our relationship. 04:25 Well, what I think God is saying is that 04:27 if you're in a Christian marriage, forgiveness needs 04:30 to be a part of your culture. 04:31 Forgiveness needs to be a part of what you do, 04:34 how you negotiate your relationship 04:36 because we're fallible. 04:38 And because we're fallible and because we make mistakes, 04:41 the more forgiveness is a part of the fiber, 04:46 the fabric of our marriage, the easier it is going to be 04:50 to negotiate having a marriage that's secure, 04:53 having a marriage that's nurturing, 04:55 having a marriage that can bring a peace and joy 04:58 to our children as well. 05:00 Do you think that's what the Bible is saying in Luke 17:3-4? 05:20 Yea, you know this whole notion of "rebuke him" 05:23 is important. 05:24 And the reason it's important is because it's saying, 05:28 just because someone does something against you 05:30 doesn't mean you quickly forgive and 05:32 let it go like if nothing happened. 05:34 Well, what the Bible is saying is, 05:37 if your brother does something against you, 05:40 and this could be a brother or your husband, 05:42 or your sister or your wife, if they do something against you, 05:45 bring it to their attention. 05:47 You know, it's something wrong; rebuking. 05:50 And the rebuking here is not being angry. 05:52 It's not yelling, it's not shouting. 05:53 The rebuking here is just bringing it to his attention, 05:56 bringing it to her attention. 05:58 And if you bring it to his attention, 06:00 and if you bring it to her attention, 06:02 and he repents, and she repents, 06:05 forgive him, forgive her. 06:07 This is what God is saying because this is the way of God. 06:11 Wanting people to get to the place where they recognize 06:16 that they have done something wrong 06:17 and they want to make it right. 06:20 Absolutely, I think there's one more text that we should share. 06:23 The Bible is just replete with text on forgiveness. 06:26 Matthew 6:14. 06:36 It's like there's an implication that if you don't forgive others 06:41 their transgressions, that God the Father 06:43 is not going to forgive you. 06:45 It's saying, you make mistakes as a human being every day. 06:50 Well I know there's some people who say, 06:53 "I didn't sin today. " 06:54 Well you know, I'm not sure that I'm prepared to 06:59 say that about myself. 07:00 I think that we sin in thought, we sin by commission 07:04 and omission. 07:05 Whether or not we plan to sin or we plan to do something 07:09 that is not exactly what God wants us to do, we do. 07:13 Does it mean that in our sanctified lives 07:16 we cannot get to the place where we are one with God 07:20 and we're on the same page with Christ? 07:21 Of course. 07:22 But what God is saying is that as human beings, 07:25 more often than not, something is going to be said 07:29 something is going to be done that's not appropriate 07:32 that needs forgiveness. 07:33 And if you're not willing to forgive your mate, 07:36 if you're not willing to forgive your husband or wife, 07:38 why are you expecting God to forgive you? 07:40 After all, that's a double standard. 07:42 And Christians should not have double standards. 07:45 Christians should know what they believe, why they believe, 07:48 and then live according to those beliefs. 07:51 Well, let's explore a little bit on exactly what forgiveness is. 07:55 Because we're always asked to forgive. 07:57 And it's like you were saying earlier that if someone asks 08:03 you to forgive, then you should forgive them. 08:06 Based on what the Bible, the word of God is saying. 08:08 So what is this forgiveness? 08:09 What is the definition of forgiveness? 08:11 Well one of the definitions that we have is when someone gives up 08:16 their perceived right or their desire to punish someone else. 08:21 You give up what you believe is your right or your desire 08:27 to punish someone. 08:28 Someone has done something to me and it was awful. 08:33 It was a terrible thing. 08:35 And now I feel that I have the right to punish them. 08:39 When I forgive, I give up that right 08:43 to punish the other person. 08:44 So then, the picture of forgiveness is 08:46 that of a cancelled debt. 08:48 You know, I like that picture. 08:50 I like that picture because, well let's say we all have bills 08:55 and we need to pay them. 08:57 Whether it's your car note or whether it's a mortgage, 09:01 or whatever it is, or whether you're buying something 09:04 or you owe something. 09:06 And God tells us to be very careful with 09:08 our finances so we don't owe. 09:10 You know, we're careful when we're buying. 09:13 But invariably in this economy in which we live, 09:16 we're going to owe something. 09:17 Now imagine my mortgage is due in two or three days. 09:23 And my mortgage holder sends me a note and says 09:29 you don't have to pay it this month. 09:33 That's huge. 09:35 Wow, can you imagine that? That's huge. 09:36 That's huge, that's a cancelled debt. 09:39 You owe me, you need to pay me 09:41 so you can keep living and have shelter. 09:43 But someone says you don't have to pay this month. 09:47 Amazing. 09:48 That's what forgiveness looks like 09:51 and that's what forgiveness feels like. 09:54 Relief, release. Oh, peace. 09:58 And that's what God wants us to do in our relationships. 10:02 So what happens when we don't forgive? 10:04 There are certain things that happen when we don't forgive. 10:09 Well when we don't forgive, what happens? 10:11 Tell us. 10:12 Well, when we don't forgive, we grow bitter ourselves. 10:15 So we harbor these bad feelings. 10:19 We harbor animosity, we harbor resentment. 10:23 And all of these things are in us, and if we don't forgive 10:27 we don't have the freedom to move on 10:30 from a certain situation. 10:31 When we don't forgive, our disagreements multiply. 10:34 If we haven't forgiven someone, 10:38 there are bad feelings that still remain. 10:40 And because your bad feelings that still remain, 10:42 it doesn't matter what the other person says or does, 10:44 we have these bad feelings. 10:47 And so disagreements multiply. You can't do no right. 10:50 Even if you're right, you can't do no right. 10:52 Why? Because I'm angry at you. 10:53 I'm not happy with you because 10:55 you've done something to injure me 10:57 and you haven't spoken to me about it. 10:59 And unless I let it go, I become a hostage to that reality. 11:04 But there's this interesting concept that we have 11:07 that floats around. 11:08 And we titled this segment, "Forgive or Forget. " 11:10 But we hear a lot of people talking about 11:13 the notion of forgive and forget. 11:15 And it's a really tricky concept because often times 11:20 we think that when someone has done something to us, 11:23 we know that the Bible says we should forgive, 11:25 but the deeper the wound, the more difficult it is to forgive. 11:31 And so sometimes, it's not as easy to forgive as quickly 11:36 even though the Bible tells us. 11:38 And we know that the sooner we forgive, 11:41 the sooner we can release ourselves and we can experience 11:45 that new freedom. 11:46 But I think it's very important for people to understand 11:49 that it is possible to forgive something, 11:52 something that we still remember. 11:55 Yes. 11:56 So a good example of that is the fact that when 11:59 our son, Julian, was about 8 years old and 12:02 we had just gotten a beagle. 12:04 And beagles, if anyone knows anything about beagles, 12:07 beagles are very hyper dogs. 12:09 But they're wonderful dogs and they're probably classified 12:11 as one of the friendliest dogs around. 12:14 And our little beagle Fergie, loved scrunchies. 12:18 You know those little holders that girls 12:20 put their hair in ponytails with. 12:22 And she would always go after scrunchies of my daughter 12:26 or the neighbors kids, or whatever. 12:27 And one day Fergie went after a scrunchie and Julian our son, 12:33 went to get the scrunchie out of her mouth. 12:35 And when she did, Fergie wasn't upset, she was just trying to 12:38 hold on to the scrunchie. 12:40 And what she did was she bit Julian by mistake. 12:44 And so our son has this little scar on his hand 12:48 that has now healed, he's now over 18. 12:51 And the scar has healed but he still remembers it. 12:55 He still remembers the experience. 12:57 Is he angry at Fergie? 12:58 And maybe this is a very light situation, 13:01 but there's still a scar from that situation. 13:05 And it's the same thing in our relationships that sometimes 13:08 there's been a wrong that has been so deep 13:11 that we still remember it, and obviously God gives us the power 13:15 to forget over time. 13:17 But we have still forgiven. 13:19 So what I'm hearing you say is that you might still remember 13:22 and yet you have forgiven. 13:24 Well, we have much more to talk about, but 13:25 right now we're going to go to break. 13:27 So stick around and come right back. 13:36 There are many "How To" books available. 13:38 But there's one that's free and perfect for every couple. 13:42 How You Can Build A Better Marriage 13:44 Bible-based, matrimonial advice is given in a light-hearted 13:48 easy to read manner for those contemplating marriage, 13:51 newlyweds, couples in their golden years 13:54 and everyone in between. Call or write for your copy. 14:10 Welcome back to our topic on forgiveness. 14:13 We were talking earlier about the whole misconception of 14:17 forgiving and forgetting. 14:18 And while we do believe that God does give us the power 14:23 to forget what we've forgiven, the fact that we remember 14:27 something does not necessarily mean that we have not forgiven. 14:30 And that's something that is a little difficult sometimes 14:34 for us as Christians because we want to believe that if we've 14:37 forgiven, we're going to quickly forget something. 14:40 And as we said earlier, forgiveness takes time. 14:45 Forgetting takes time. 14:47 And the deeper the wound, the longer it's going to take 14:50 to forget something that has hurt us deeply. 14:54 Now I want to be very clear that God says that 14:58 when He forgives us of our sin, He remembers that sin no more. 15:03 And He's cast the sin to the depths of the sea 15:06 and He remembers that sin no more. 15:08 Let's remember that God is perfect. 15:11 And because God is perfect, God can choose to do 15:14 anything He wants to. 15:15 If He tells you that He's throwing your sin to the depths 15:18 of the sea and He no longer remembers it, He does it. 15:23 But we're not God. 15:24 And we're not perfect. 15:27 So, if we're not God and we're not perfect, 15:29 our forgiveness isn't perfect. 15:31 And the fact that we didn't quite do it 15:34 as quickly as God did, the forgetting that is, 15:37 doesn't mean that we have not forgiven. 15:40 And there's another important thing on that 15:41 whole notion of forgetting. 15:42 The fact that we've forgotten doesn't necessary 15:46 mean we've forgiven. 15:47 And that's really important to remember because 15:50 sometimes we say, "Oh I've forgotten all about it. " 15:52 But we're still harboring the hurt. 15:55 And you and I both believe and we talk about this all the time 15:59 when we're working with couples, and even in our own relationship 16:02 that we know that the sooner we accept God's power 16:07 and we allow ourselves to forgive, the sooner we can begin 16:11 the healing process. 16:12 And that's really important for us to stress here 16:16 is that God does give us the power to forgive something 16:21 that we still feel and hurts that we still remember. 16:27 That's the key, I think, that we want to get across. 16:29 Because this whole thing of putting together 16:32 forgiveness and forgetting, I think keeps people 16:35 from either forgiving, because for as long as I remember 16:39 then maybe that means that I can't yet forgive. 16:42 And God does give us that power to forgive 16:45 that which we still remember. 16:48 We're talking about marriage here and so I want to 16:50 bring up an issue, to share a visual that's a powerful one. 16:54 And that is infidelity in marriage. 16:59 If someone has been unfaithful, if your spouse has been 17:01 unfaithful to you, you can forgive that individual. 17:05 But you're not going to be so quick to forget. 17:09 Not because you don't want to, but because the image is so 17:12 powerful that it's not so easy to put out of your mind. 17:16 If someone has been unfaithful, 17:18 you're probably going to remember it. 17:20 In fact, if you deal with this matter clinically, 17:24 you will find that clinicians know that the deeper the hurt, 17:28 the longer it's going to take the individual 17:30 to come out of it. 17:32 Why? Because it's a deep wound. 17:35 And one of the most difficult things in marriage when 17:37 there's been unfaithfulness, is that it's very difficult for 17:41 the person who was injured to trust again. 17:45 It's a huge issue. Right. 17:46 It's something we have to give to Jesus, 17:48 it's something we have to give to the Lord. 17:50 And of course He can heal us. 17:51 Of course we can get to the place where we've forgotten. 17:54 At least where it's out of our consciousness, 17:58 it's not on the surface of our consciousness. 18:00 It's been relegated someplace where we don't see it, 18:03 where we don't think about it. 18:05 But that takes work. 18:06 So we just want to be clear that this whole issue of forgiveness 18:09 is not a simple one, is not an easy one, 18:12 and it's not one that just snap and it's gone. 18:15 And it's important that as we deal with each other as couples, 18:20 when we have committed an offense 18:23 against the other person, something like infidelity, 18:26 that we're not quick to say to the person, 18:28 "Well, if you've forgiven me, you would have forgotten. " 18:31 And an example of that is, I may have forgiven 18:34 and years have gone by and I have rebuilt trust with you. 18:38 But let's say I see the person that you had an affair with. 18:43 It might evoke some emotions in me. 18:47 Now I know that I've forgiven, but those emotions may 18:51 still occur and I will have to go through that process again. 18:54 Perhaps even of reminding myself that I've chosen to forgive. 18:58 So it's unfair for the person who has committed the wrong 19:02 to expect that you may never think about this thing again. 19:06 Again, over the years as time goes on and as trust 19:09 has been rebuilt in this relationship, regardless of what 19:14 the offense may have been trust has to be rebuilt, 19:17 I may still evoke, there still might be some emotions that 19:22 may surface again because of the crime that was committed. 19:27 On that note, the whole issue of responsibility comes up. 19:31 And that is, what is the responsibility of the individual 19:34 who has caused the injury. 19:37 If I'm a spouse who has been unfaithful 19:39 to my wife or to my husband, I am responsible 19:44 for helping my spouse to trust me. 19:47 Now if I had an affair, if I was unfaithful to my spouse, 19:53 I need to be careful how I treat members of the opposite sex. 19:58 How I find myself, where am I with those individuals. 20:02 How do I allow myself to be in a room, whether it's at church 20:06 or at work or any place else, where it's just the two of us 20:09 and nobody else. 20:10 Or my spouse may come to my place of employment. 20:14 And she comes in and find me in a compromising situation 20:18 with a member of the opposite sex. 20:20 That's problematic. 20:21 So if I have been the party that has injured my spouse, 20:26 I need to take responsibility. 20:29 Despite the fact that my spouse has forgiven me, 20:32 I need to take responsibility for restitution. 20:34 I need to take responsibility for making sure 20:36 that the things that I do help build up, build up our trust 20:42 in each other. 20:43 Because without trust, the marriage isn't going anywhere. 20:46 Right, so then forgiveness does not absolve the wrongdoer 20:52 of their responsibility. 20:54 So if I have done something against you, 20:57 I now have an obligation to restore this relationship. 21:01 It takes the relationship out of the mode of punishing. 21:06 We've removed those feelings of resentment, of revenge. 21:12 We've taken those emotions out of the relationship, 21:16 but there is still an obligation for the wrongdoer 21:19 to make things right. 21:20 So then, we can say forgiveness and restoration 21:23 go hand in hand. 21:25 Yes, because trust builds slowly over time. 21:29 But it has to be consistently trustworthy. 21:32 The person who has made, who has committed the wrong 21:35 has to be consistently trustworthy for your spouse 21:39 to feel that they can trust you again. 21:42 So, the fact that you've been forgiven 21:44 does not absolve you of responsibility. 21:46 If you have stolen $100, let's say, 21:50 or you've hit somebody's car, and you go over and you say, 21:55 "Oh I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to hit or damage your car. " 21:58 Well, you didn't mean to damage my car, but it's damaged 22:01 and it's going to cost to repair it. 22:03 So who is going to pay for that cost? 22:05 Well certainly the person who damaged it. 22:06 That's the right thing to do. 22:08 So let's understand this whole issue of forgiveness. 22:12 It's not a simple one. 22:13 It's very complex, it's very complicated. 22:15 And the person who has done the wrong has the responsibility 22:19 to make it right. 22:21 And the person who has done something wrong 22:23 needs to understand that even though they've been forgiven 22:26 and they've experienced that freedom, 22:29 that joy of being forgiven, as they are rebuilding, 22:32 as they are restoring the relationship, 22:35 rebuilding the trust, there may be feelings of hurt and guilt. 22:40 And it's not the responsibility of the person who was offended 22:44 to make you feel better. 22:46 Because that's something now that's going to be between you 22:49 and God as you ask God for forgiveness 22:52 for what you've done to your spouse. 22:55 In this case, we're talking about marriage. 22:57 So there are some steps for seeking 22:59 forgiveness and reconciliation. 23:01 And should we talk about those for a little while? 23:04 So one of the things that we can do is that 23:06 certainly as we talk about conflict management, 23:09 what we usually recommend is that you select a time, 23:12 that you choose a specified time to talk about the issue. 23:16 So, it may be the person who has been offended, 23:20 or it may be the person who has created the offense 23:24 that will say, "You know there's something that I need 23:26 to speak with you about and can we choose a time that 23:29 would be a good time for both of us to discuss this matter?" 23:32 Another thing that we want to do when we're trying to 23:35 come to grips with the whole issue of the offense 23:37 and the hurt, is to explore fully the feelings that 23:41 are involved in the injury. 23:43 You know, not "Oh, I'm sorry. " "Oh, I forgive you. " 23:48 Well, yes, but I think it's important both parties 23:51 to come together and talk intimately and sincerely 23:56 about how what you did hurt me. 24:00 Not to accuse, not to make it worse. 24:03 But just to make sure that we understand what has happened. 24:06 I need to clearly say, the injured party needs to 24:09 clearly say, "This is how I felt when you did this. " 24:12 And then the other person may also have an opportunity to 24:16 explore why they did it, 24:17 and the circumstances under which they did it, 24:20 and perhaps get to the place where they say, 24:23 "Well I didn't really mean to do anything, any harm to you. " 24:26 But it happened and acknowledge the fact that it happened. 24:29 Right, and understand that this may be a lengthy conversation. 24:34 And as a matter of fact, as we talk about these first two steps 24:37 the couple, let's say that's in this situation, may have to seek 24:41 the help of a pastor or a counselor 24:44 to help them work through these issues. 24:47 Again, the deeper the wound, the more difficult the conversation 24:51 that we will have about the situation. 24:55 If it's just a simple matter of, you now, I forgot 25:00 to pick up the kids after school, that's not something 25:05 that you, hopefully, will not need a pastor to intervene on. 25:08 But if we're talking about infidelity, 25:10 if we're talking about some type of abuse, 25:13 then it is going to require some third party intervention. 25:16 And point number three right here now, is that 25:19 the person who was the offender 25:21 asks for forgiveness at this point. 25:24 We've explored what's happening, I ask for forgiveness. 25:26 Right, and then as the offended party deals with it, 25:33 talks about it, explores the issues and concerns, 25:36 they offer forgiveness to the person who 25:40 committed the offense. 25:42 Yes, the offended person agrees to forgive 25:44 and then you move from there. 25:47 You ask for forgiveness, the offended person 25:49 agrees to forgive. 25:52 Remembering that it's not as simple 25:54 as steps one, two, three, four, five. 25:57 That the offended party may say, "I need to talk about it 26:01 a little bit more, I need to explore it. " 26:04 But it is important, it really is important 26:06 that we understand that God expects us to forgive. 26:10 And He tells us in His word that we need to forgive. 26:13 And then, give forgiveness time to heal. 26:18 Give the forgiveness an opportunity to take place. 26:21 Because it's going to take some time. 26:22 And the deeper the wound, the more difficult the situation. 26:26 Well here's what Ellen White has to say in the Adventist Home. 26:30 Here's what the results of a forgiven relationship are. 26:41 That is a wonderful and terrific quotation. 26:44 "One well ordered, well disciplined family 26:46 tells more in behalf of Christianity 26:48 than all the sermons that can be preached. " 26:53 That's awesome. 26:54 What it's saying is that God wants us to have the kinds of 26:57 families, kinds of relationships that will honor Him, 27:01 that will represent Him. 27:03 You can preach all you want to preach. 27:04 But someone said, "I'd rather see a sermon than hear one. " 27:10 How do we see a sermon? 27:11 By the way our families work together. 27:14 By the way we live together. 27:16 By the way we forgive each other. 27:18 And then there's the promise of success. 27:19 Philippians 4:13, I can do all things through Christ 27:24 who gives me strength. 27:26 Is it hard to forgive? Of course it's hard to forgive. 27:28 There are many difficult things that will 27:30 rise in marriage. 27:32 But with God on our side, we cannot fail. 27:36 And through His grace and power, we can forgive each other 27:39 and have great families to represent Him. 27:43 God bless you. |
Revised 2014-12-17