Participants: Jeff Reich (Host)
Series Code: LM
Program Code: LM000132
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00:31 Welcome to another Laymen Ministries program.
00:33 We're here in the beautiful woods of North Idaho. 00:35 I like to refer to this as God's studio. 00:38 I'm here with Samuel Wang and, Sam, 00:40 you've been a friend of ours for many years, 00:43 in fact, I think the first time we met was probably around, 00:46 I'm thinking 1998, 00:49 something around in there? 1997. 00:51 1997. Yes. 00:53 We want to share some of Sam's story. 00:54 We want to share little bit about 00:56 what Laymen Ministries connection with Sam 00:58 is doing right now in China, 01:01 to try to help educate Chinese people. 01:03 The first time you contacted me, 01:04 where were you living? 01:06 At the time I think I first wrote to you in 1996, 01:09 I was in Washington DC. 01:11 And I just came over from Hong Kong 01:14 arrived December of '95 01:18 and you know Maryland area 01:21 and I saw you have a China Project, 01:24 I was very interested 01:26 'cause I just escaped from China in 1995. 01:29 Yeah, you was telling me this story 01:31 about escaping from China 01:32 and I'm like is this guy really telling me the truth, 01:35 I was little suspicious 01:36 and I kept listening to your story 01:38 and how did you end up escaping from China? 01:43 What was that whole situation that took place? 01:45 Now basically just to make a long story short, 01:48 I was involved with 1989 01:50 Tiananmen Square Students Movement. 01:52 I was a graduate student 01:55 and I was studying in University in Hunan province 01:59 and I was part of the organizing, 02:03 you can call that organizing committee, 02:05 to organize the students movement back then, 02:08 but I didn't know the big picture, 02:11 I didn't know the background back then, 02:12 I only know we wanted to see 02:15 some changes in China for better. 02:18 I just started to, I was thinking 02:20 that Bible is more for political for and help, 02:25 bringing democracy and all this to China. 02:28 So even though I was studying the Bible 02:31 but really no understanding, 02:32 I vowed what we really want is 02:34 to China have probably down away with corruption 02:38 and to bring a system that will bring more varieties 02:43 and new, new way of directing people's life 02:49 or activities or you may call that a democratic system 02:54 and but the movement soon was over. 02:59 Did you become 03:01 disillusion at that point or what was your thinking 03:03 that happened after the Tiananmen Square 03:06 shootings took place and all that? 03:08 You know we were very excited 03:09 with all the people back us up and for the demonstration 03:14 and just striking, everything we saw, 03:16 wow, we're gonna help the country move 03:20 but all of sudden a few gunshots, 03:23 then every student went to quiet 03:26 and I have to run for life because I was also wanted 03:30 and so I run away for few months. 03:33 This was long time ago, in 1989. 03:34 Long time ago but it was a huge movement in China 03:37 and it affects my life 03:40 and it has a great impact ever since. 03:43 After that kind of get disillusion 03:46 then all of a sudden start looking for different directions 03:48 to try to make a change? 03:49 Yeah, I thought, well, we were almost getting it, 03:51 then all of sudden it's gone, I said what is it, 03:54 why this movement is so powerless 03:57 and it couldn't make anything. 03:59 And I'm putting all my heart into this 04:01 and then have to run for life 04:03 and all the voices that supporting the movement is gone. 04:07 And just start to question, 04:08 really, what would really bring a change, 04:11 what would really be the thing that has power in itself. 04:17 And so I come to the conclusion 04:19 that political movement may not be the answer for China, 04:23 I started to switch to searching for religious... 04:27 Like a spiritual change? Spiritual movement, yes. 04:32 I think the problem is not only with the system, 04:34 it really was with people. 04:36 So I start to search for different religions. 04:39 So what direction did you go at that time? 04:41 Taoism, Confucianism and Buddhism 04:44 and at the same time I carried my Bible with me, 04:46 I had a Bible at that time. Are you serious? 04:49 And I just couldn't reconcile everything together 04:52 and everything seems to have some good to offer 04:56 but you know without a good understanding 04:59 of each one of them 05:01 and I was also kind of a guy, got confused 05:06 and it is at this time 05:08 I run into Hare Krishna devotees. 05:11 We are intrigued with what this Hare Krishna devotee would say? 05:13 What they have to say, 05:14 yes, they ask a question do you think 05:16 do you have there's a soul in the dog 05:19 and I just never thought of that, 05:22 you know, I thought only humans had soul 05:24 and a soul is eternal 05:26 if you go as according to my Christian friends, 05:29 if you believe Jesus 05:31 and when you die, you go to heaven, 05:34 if you don't believe in Jesus, 05:37 you go to hell and you suffer. 05:39 So the immortality of the soul was a big part of your...? 05:41 That's a big part of it, 05:42 I said hold on a second and in Buddhism, 05:45 there's also be divine reincarnation, 05:47 kind of like a concept that to the soul, 05:51 something is there 05:52 and that keep on, keeps life going. 05:56 Now I know better about Buddhism, 05:57 they don't really call that a soul, 06:00 but one way or another, 06:01 it seems like the life is going on 06:03 and there's no death. 06:07 We just have your phase from, 06:08 one phase of life into another one. 06:11 Did you get involved 06:12 then with the Hare Krishna movement? 06:14 I was very much attracted to begin with 06:17 and because Hare Krishna says, 06:19 no, no, no, when you die, 06:20 you don't go to hell, even if you go to hell, 06:23 the Krishna is so powerful, 06:25 he'll deliver you, give you another chance, 06:28 give you another chance until you're... 06:29 That's pretty attractive option 06:31 because with Christianity you get just one chance 06:34 and you're gonna go to heaven or hell 06:35 but with this, you actually could try over and over again. 06:38 Oh, yeah, it brings hope 06:41 because we were making improvement, 06:42 and we're not perfect this life ends in. 06:45 Its lifetime it gives more further way 06:47 to give you more chance to perfect your life 06:52 and just a much better chance 06:54 that you should, you turn on to get, 06:57 you're delivered and liberated, 07:00 so I got into Hare Krishna movement 07:02 and it was all my... heart and soul. 07:04 You told me one time you got so involved with, 07:06 you worked your way up to being like 07:07 one of the highest people in the movement, 07:09 translated the Bhagavad-Gita, is that right? 07:12 I from a part-time devotee I became a full time devotee 07:17 and initiated and the movement-- 07:19 I actually was quite successful 07:22 to start a temple in Beijing. Wow. 07:25 And attract a lot of students from Beijing University. 07:28 You really got into this. 07:29 I was quite well known in Hare Krishna 07:34 during that year in 1993 07:36 and because probably one of the best 07:38 who had brought more people to the movement 07:41 than any other one in the whole world. 07:42 Yeah, and so about this time you met...? 07:44 I translated Bhagavad-Gita into Chinese 07:48 and I wrote to my guru, 07:49 I said you know Karl Marx never came to China 07:52 but some people translated his works, 07:55 people read it and China became a communist country. 07:58 Now we got this Bhagavad-Gita translated into Chinese. 08:01 This book alone would change China, 08:04 so my guru said, 08:05 "Now you be my personal representative for China", 08:08 basically that would have put me 08:10 on the leadership position for the movement. 08:14 People who are in Hinduism or in Hare Krishna movement, 08:17 they often times look at Christians as, 08:20 this is what I've heard in India, too, 08:21 they call them dog eaters because they're not vegetarian. 08:24 And so they have a tendency to look down on Christians 08:26 because Christians are non vegetarian 08:29 and you ran into this lady Cathy... 08:31 It was about the time and I want to convert 08:33 and help Chinese to become Hare Krishna's 08:35 and the first group of people 08:37 I saw, well, we Christians did know God 08:39 and that's the goal we present, 08:41 because they don't know how to practice spiritual life, 08:44 so I tried to convert my Chinese Christian friends 08:47 and they tried to convert me, 08:50 none of us could be successful 08:52 and they introduced me to a lady 08:54 by the name of Cathy Leone 08:56 and she was English teacher in a college there. 08:59 I was very much impressed with her. 09:02 She didn't speak much but she was a vegetarian. 09:05 Every time I went to talk with my other Christian friends, 09:08 I couldn't eat their meal 09:09 but I found Cathy was perfect, I kind of... 09:13 So you could go witness to her and get a free meal, too. 09:16 Yes, I tried to convert her, I was not successful 09:19 and I gave my books to her, she doesn't want to read 09:21 but I tell, well, let me read your books 09:24 and trying to help you. 09:26 And that happened to be 09:27 the "Spirit of Prophecy" books, Ellen White. 09:31 It's one of those big volumes, those like...? 09:33 The three big rack of volumes, it was 52 books combined. 09:37 She gave you the whole works. 09:39 It took me quite a while, long time to read all of them 09:43 and but as soon as I read "Great Controversy" 09:47 and discovered that the soul, 09:50 the immortality is actually the first deception of Satan. 09:54 Immortality of the soul. 09:55 But yet that's the pillar of the Hare Krishna movement, 09:59 so in other words my faith collapsed 10:02 and the pillars gone immediately. 10:04 So it convinced you that 10:07 humans don't have an immortal soul. 10:09 It just convinced me my former understanding 10:11 about the Bible, about eternal hell 10:13 and about all of these were wrong. 10:15 And God is not a god that would punish you 10:19 forever and ever and he is loving and justly God. 10:23 So you got a whole new picture of God. 10:24 And that just overnight I read it overnight 10:27 and then they brought me back to second morning, 1994. 10:31 What do you mean you read it overnight? 10:33 I borrowed the books from her 10:34 and then I started to read it that night 10:36 and I read through Great Controversy. 10:39 You read the whole Great Controversy overnight? 10:41 The closing chapter, 10:43 my interest was trying to find out 10:45 what happened about this, 10:48 the soul and the immortality of the soul 10:51 and whether there is eternal burning hell, 10:54 that was my focus. 10:55 And I read those chapters over and over 10:58 and I was convinced that 11:00 what the Bible thought was God is a loving God 11:04 and there's no such a thing like eternal burning hell 11:08 and I just wake up the next morning, 11:11 gave my heart to the Lord. 11:12 So, Sam, we know back then 11:14 since you're here today that you are a Seventh-day Adventist, 11:17 so something happened between that time 11:19 and your time coming to America 11:22 and then working with Laymen Ministries 11:23 and being involved with ministry in China 11:25 and such, how were you baptized over there? 11:28 She gave me, when she came back from her vacation... 11:32 Who, Cathy? 11:33 Cathy and she gave me a name, 11:34 I wanted to be baptized. 11:36 She said, "I can't baptize you 11:37 but I know somebody who could." 11:39 So she gave me a name and a phone number, 11:42 David Lynn, and there was a phone number. 11:45 I called, I don't know who David Lynn was, 11:48 I called that number and I said I really wanted to be baptized 11:53 and get in touch with him and we made arrangement 11:57 and eventually I went to Shanghai, 11:59 took a train, 28 hours travel 12:01 from Hunan to Shanghai, all the way across China. 12:05 To be baptized. 12:06 But because it was illegal for Shanghai pastor 12:10 to baptize someone from another region, 12:12 so I end up being baptized in a bath tub. 12:15 In a bath tub? 12:16 In a bath tub and I think 12:19 even though there's not many eye witnesses of human 12:24 but I think the Lord is there and all of His angels are there. 12:27 And for our viewers if you don't know who Elder David Lynn, 12:30 he's passed away now about a year ago 12:32 and he's kind of like one of the patriarchs 12:34 of the Adventist church in China. 12:37 And in the 1970s and early 1980s, 12:40 I read a lot of his works that were coming out of China 12:42 and they were like very inspirational to me. 12:44 This man was theological giant in a lot of ways. 12:47 He's just somebody I really looked up to. 12:49 So you kind of started this system 12:52 and working with him there 12:53 with translation or something, right? 12:56 I started with helping up 12:57 dating the language of "Desire of Ages". 13:00 You know we can't get into all the details 13:02 about your escape from China 13:05 but just in a nutshell really quickly, 13:06 tell us how did you end up in America? 13:10 I got in touch with a lady 13:12 who was working in an orphanage 13:15 and she reported it's a very bad situation 13:19 for the orphans and needed some help, 13:22 I eventually helped to bring this case to outside of China. 13:27 So you did this to try to help a lady 13:28 who is trying to help orphan children? 13:31 Yes, and she was a physician there 13:34 and she at the time she was, 13:37 I think, in her late 50s or 60s and early 60s 13:42 and she just wanted to help the orphans 13:44 and that it was the main immediate cause, 13:48 reason for me to escape China 13:50 to trying to get international attention 13:52 to improve the situation. 13:55 And later on the Chinese government 13:57 did made some new regulations end of day, 14:00 the situation has improved. 14:02 So education has always been a big part of your life, 14:05 I mean you're in continued education 14:08 and your dream was to have a school in China 14:09 to educate people 14:11 and, tell us a little bit about your dreams 14:14 and aspirations about education. 14:17 I first just taught textile engineering 14:19 for eight years 14:21 and then I went to graduate school 14:23 to learn linguistics. 14:24 And then became a college, a university teacher 14:27 and then after I became Christian 14:31 and I was very much, in China there's a need 14:35 for to share the knowledge of the Bible 14:39 to the young people. 14:41 And in the Mainland China, there were like 14:44 17 Bible colleges in China 14:49 but none of them are advent-- belongs to the Adventists. 14:53 And so I have always had this dream 14:58 to share the truths with young people 15:02 and that gradually grew into an idea to open a school. 15:07 After I came to the States, 15:08 I went to Southern to take my master. 15:11 Southern College? Southern University. 15:13 Adventist University. 15:14 And after that I went to China to open a school, 15:19 at the time it was underground school 15:20 and it was a vocational school, 15:23 but we also taught the Bible and the mission theology 15:27 and the school have trained about 200 some students 15:33 after two years training and it was officially closed 15:37 but the progress still is on 15:42 and later when I was not able 15:45 to continue to work in China, 15:48 I came back and I finished 15:49 my doctorate degree in missiology. 15:52 So I have always had the passion for do the missions 15:57 and now in China, there are so many, 16:00 people are interested, 16:01 they want to learn, they want to be equipped 16:04 but there's no school that they really can go. 16:06 What is, there's no schools at all in China, 16:08 like Adventist schools 16:09 or Adventist seminaries at all, anything like that? 16:11 There's no official Adventist seminaries at all. 16:14 The church members and pastor, 16:15 I know this can maybe a sensitive thing to ask 16:18 but are they really grounded, 16:20 they know as much as like people in the West 16:22 as far as understanding truths of the Bible 16:26 and you know things like that? 16:29 Since there's no schools there, I'm just wondering. 16:32 The main thing, the main educator of China 16:35 is the Bible itself 16:36 and the Spirit of Prophecy books, 16:40 but we don't have a school 16:42 but in every church, in quite a few places, 16:46 there are definite efforts trying to reach people 16:50 and to help people to get trained 16:53 and to study to explore together 16:55 but the need is still much greater 16:57 than what we can, what is already there. 17:01 And so I have been thinking nowadays 17:04 with the technology and with the internet 17:07 and, so it's a great way to send, 17:14 to make education more accessible. 17:17 I was in China in 1993, now that was a long time ago 17:20 and I remember being at this house 17:22 where there was two Adventist pastors there 17:24 and some church members 17:26 and they got into a discussion about theology 17:30 and I was like in America, 17:32 I would never even hear this kind of discussion taking place 17:35 because it was a settled question. 17:37 You know the Adventist church grows very fast 17:41 from a very small fraction of members 17:44 and it is true in some places, people don't know 17:48 the Bible that well. A little bit confusion. 17:49 Yes, there's a little bit confusion 17:51 but over the years 17:52 as the association has improved quite a lot 17:55 and they are, a lot of work has been done and... 17:58 But there's no like, 17:59 any place like training centers to train lay people. 18:01 Yes, there's no official place for training. 18:05 Also there are some creating ways 18:07 of bring the training there for young people 18:13 and also for short term intensive courses. 18:16 There are some, some efforts along that line 18:20 but it is always issue of security 18:24 and you know quality and... 18:27 So what have you thought about trying to do, 18:29 to try to help remedy this situation? 18:31 And one of the ways I was thinking 18:33 is to create a website 18:35 that's specifically devoted to theological 18:39 and the missionological training for the Chinese Adventists. 18:44 And this will become a resource website 18:48 and we can now focus on giving training in theology 18:53 to have a deep understanding in the Bible. 18:55 You already had experience in websites 18:57 because I remember one time you shared with me 18:59 that you helped to get a lot of, 19:01 collect all the Ellen White writings together 19:03 that were in Chinese language and help get them publish online 19:06 and so you have some experience 19:07 already with dealing with websites. 19:09 Yeah, it's about 10 years ago 19:10 I probably was one of the earliest to, 19:13 amongst Chinese circuits 19:15 to put Ellen White's writings online. 19:16 So you think a website like what you are talking about 19:18 could reach a lot of people will really help them. 19:20 And later on I also help start to build a website, 19:25 we have more than 60,000 registered members 19:28 for this website. Wow. 19:29 And everyday, there's about 19:30 3,000 to 4,000 IP address to visit this website, 19:34 so we had some experience 19:36 and it was, the website has blessed a lot of people. 19:40 Like interactive courses and things like that, too? 19:43 It will provide education in theology 19:46 and not only in theology... Amen. 19:48 And a need to have more focus of mission, 19:52 actually, mission is a mother of theology. 19:55 Sometimes the child is grownup 19:57 and don't recognize the mother and that's the reality today. 20:00 So this will have emphasis on the mission. 20:03 Like you and I are talking about is 20:05 you can have mission but not theology, 20:07 then you have... 20:08 You lose direction. Yeah, you lose direction. 20:09 You don't know where you are going. 20:11 You have a motivation to do something 20:12 but you don't have any direction to go, 20:14 but if you're only in theology but you don't have mission, 20:17 you have all this head knowledge with no practical application. 20:19 Exactly right, the mission 20:21 and theology should go hand-in-hand 20:23 and the whole purpose of the church is that 20:28 church is for mission and therefore, 20:31 this website will put a lot of emphasis on the mission 20:34 and bent to not only knows 20:37 how to talk with those who know your terms, 20:39 but also know how to talk to let's say 20:42 a Buddhist and a Confucianist, 20:44 a Taoist, an atheist, a communist. 20:46 What would be some of the things on this website, 20:48 you say it's like a warehouse. 20:49 What some of the things on these shelves of the warehouse? 20:51 Well, would be a study in the Bible 20:53 and it's the depth study of-- 20:55 the main focus of the Bible, the main theme of the Bible 20:58 and we can have a study 21:00 and the teachings of the Spirits of Prophecy 21:04 and how to apply that to our life 21:06 and help the church and we can also have. 21:09 All of this will be both in a written format 21:12 and also as, you know, take like our course, 21:15 like introduction to the Bible, 21:17 outline of the Bible or the themes of the Bible 21:20 or the themes of the New Testament, Old Testament. 21:21 So you'd assess what you're saying is 21:23 you're creating an online seminary and is kind of? 21:25 It's more or less like that and like the mission 21:29 and the biblical ground for the mission 21:33 and like today how to do evangelism 21:36 and like a big buzzy world like contextualization 21:41 and you know how to bring the gospel, 21:45 the message into the culture, into the context. Yeah. 21:48 And how to talk with your neighbor 21:51 who knows nothing about the Bible. 21:53 I know we recently bought you a video camera 21:54 and you said you're gonna start doing 21:56 some instructional courses. 21:57 And even that would be 21:59 a classroom like, a live classroom, 22:02 you can check in and register in 22:04 and then we can see each other over the internet. 22:08 Young people in China too 22:09 right now are fascinated with electronic. Oh, yes. 22:13 And if it's situation like that 22:15 and we will also offer intensive courses, 22:18 when there's lot of people are interested, 22:21 of course they say Daniel in Revelation, 22:23 we may actually go to China and get those people 22:26 just like one or two weeks together 22:30 and actually teach intensive course. 22:33 And what is the name of the website again? 22:35 It is called Fuyintd.com, 22:39 I already registered this domain name 22:42 and we are working, we're trying to buy that. 22:44 What does that mean in? 22:45 Fuyin means gospel. Gospel? 22:47 Yeah and T means in Chinese it means heaven 22:50 and D means the earth. 22:54 It's basically a place for sharing the gospel. 22:59 And you can say the gospel campus, Fuyin 23:03 and every Chinese will identify that very well, 23:07 it's the Chinese way of saying the gospel. 23:09 And you say that there are other websites 23:11 that you've been involved with 23:13 is one of the top ten hits in China 23:15 right now for when people are searching out 23:17 questions about the Bible inserts, right? 23:18 If you search anything in that website about the Bible, 23:22 about a specific subject 23:24 and that website will come up, very high. 23:27 So this will not only be for Chinese people in China, 23:30 but it'll be for Chinese people that might be working in India, 23:35 they'd be working in Malaysia, Singapore I mean...? 23:38 Yes, we Chinese have different dialects 23:41 but the written format, it's the same, 23:44 we all write and read the same. 23:46 So what you're saying is that 23:47 the person from some other country 23:49 even though they might not speak Mandarin Chinese, 23:51 they can read the Chinese characters? 23:53 Yeah, exactly. 23:54 Wow, that means it can reach 23:55 a lot more people than just in China. 23:57 And this will be a good way 24:00 and to make the gospel be very contextualized, 24:05 people would not speak like foreign words, 24:10 Jesus will be more or less like Jesus for China. Amen. 24:15 And so this will be a culturally adapted. 24:19 You were involved with research 24:20 and wrote a book called "God and the Ancient Chinese" 24:24 and we're just about ready to reprint this book right now 24:26 and this is an amazing book. 24:27 I would encourage our viewers 24:29 to get in touch with our ministry 24:30 and go online and find this book. 24:32 But tell our viewers a little bit about the book? 24:34 This is a book to trace all historical document 24:37 to put a link that between Chinese, 24:40 modern Chinese and the ancient Chinese 24:42 but more important is how the ancient Chinese 24:45 has always be worshipping God 24:47 and this provide enough evidence for the modern Chinese 24:51 to bring them to the belief of Jesus, 24:54 and actually Jesus is not a foreign God, 24:56 he's actually, He has been the God to create a God 24:59 that Chinese has been worshipping from the beginning. 25:01 Can you give us a few examples out of the book 25:03 that you're talking about? 25:05 For instance, Chinese has always been 25:06 talking about the holy man. 25:08 A holy man who'd come 25:11 and he would teach the people with word of God 25:14 and the whole universe will surrender to him 25:17 and he was, you know, noble position 25:22 and he will assume a lower position. 25:26 And not only that the Chinese has, 25:28 in this document, we have 25:30 from Confucius writings and other classics, 25:32 there's always been the teachings of righteousness 25:36 and we can almost find every single Adventist doctrine 25:40 in all this writings including the Sabbath. 25:42 Wow, that's incredible. 25:44 And so it has been a very good resource 25:49 to open ways to reach the Chinese, 25:51 I've been using this message to hold evangelists meetings, 25:55 you know, all over the world. 25:57 And the Lord has always been blessing us with this effort 26:00 and has brought a lot of people into the church. 26:03 Praise God. 26:04 And this message, this will be one of the ways that we reach, 26:08 you know, website is to use the culturally adapted message 26:13 to educate our members 26:15 to which they follow our countrymen. Amen. 26:19 Samuel, how can people get involved 26:21 to help with this project? 26:23 Well, number one, you can pray for us 26:26 and that, this-- we will be guide 26:29 and be sensitive to the call and the lead of the Holy Spirit 26:34 and every single word will be shared on this website 26:36 and different courses that's gonna come 26:39 will be a real blessing. 26:40 It is something that we have learned of Christ first, 26:44 before we go and share with others. 26:47 And it will be at time that we can explore 26:50 and learn together 26:52 with our viewers, with our brothers, 26:55 whoever they will be, to learn together 26:57 in the school of Christ. 26:59 And this is our greatest need 27:01 I think that that's what our viewers, 27:03 we would solicit your prayers for us. 27:06 And secondly, certainly a website like this 27:09 is going to involve a lot of work for the shooting, 27:13 the preparation for the courses, these reading materials 27:17 and to have people to do correct the assignments 27:23 and to edit, to maintain the website, 27:28 and there's a lot of need 27:29 and so financially there will be some need 27:32 and I know you can, 27:34 if you can help in some way that will keep us in the air. 27:38 This is a powerful, powerful tool 27:40 for reaching a lot of people that read Chinese characters. 27:43 We really like to encourage our viewers that 27:45 if you want to be involved with this project 27:47 to help with this powerful way to reach a lot of people 27:50 who speak Chinese language. 27:53 To be able to contact our ministry at Laymen Ministries, 27:56 that's 414 Zapada Road, St. Maries, Idaho, 83861. 28:01 Or you can contact us through our website 28:02 at www.lmn.org. 28:06 Or call us on our toll free number, 28:08 if you're in Canada, United States 28:09 at 1800-245-1844. |
Revised 2014-12-17