Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI210510A
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00:28 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is your program designed 00:31 to bring you up to speed 00:32 and catch your interest 00:34 on the importance of religious liberty 00:36 in the US and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed. 00:40 For 22 years, editor of Liberty Magazine 00:43 and my guest on the program. 00:44 Referring to that 00:46 is the new editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:48 Now of just a few months, 00:49 but maybe 25, 30 years, who knows? 00:53 The young Bettina Krause. 00:56 How are you? 00:57 I am well. Welcome to the program. 00:59 It's good to be with you. Thank you. 01:00 We've spoken before and... 01:03 So in some ways, this is a continuation. 01:06 And let's jump off on where we are now as we record, 01:09 and I doubt it'll change in the next few months. 01:12 We are in the second phase of the COVID epidemic, 01:15 the global COVID epidemic. 01:16 And I think it's something 01:18 around 4.5, 5 million people globally that have died. 01:21 Not yet close to the 01:23 so-called Spanish flu of about 50, 60 million, 01:26 but enough to catch the world's attention. 01:28 Oh, yes. 01:30 How would you place religious liberty 01:33 and Liberty Magazine 01:35 in the ongoing challenge with COVID? 01:41 How would you place this beginning with the failure 01:44 to designate church 01:46 and church activity as essential services? 01:49 Yeah, well, I think this whole situation is just 01:54 such a vivid reminder 01:57 of how fragile our civil liberties are. 02:00 I mean, clearly, public health measures 02:03 were absolutely vital in dealing 02:07 with this COVID situation. 02:09 But it has reinforced 02:12 just how willing we can be as individuals 02:15 to give up our freedoms in the face of fear, 02:19 you know, in exchange for perceived security. 02:23 And I think that is a stark warning 02:26 for us going into the future. 02:29 We need to be prepared. 02:31 You know, I think it was James Madison, 02:32 he said, you know, "It is proper to take alarm 02:36 at the first experiment on our liberties." 02:38 And I think we have been 02:41 shown in an incredibly vivid way 02:46 just how careful and vigilant we need to be. 02:49 And how fragile some of these liberties are 02:52 and certainly religious liberty as much as the others. 02:55 Yes. 02:57 But also, Lincoln, 02:58 it has shown us that as a nation, 03:00 we are finding it increasingly difficult 03:04 to talk about difficult issues. 03:06 It has showcased 03:09 just how broken 03:11 our political dialogue really is. 03:15 And I think that also is a warning for us 03:18 going into the future. 03:20 Because we know that 03:21 there will be contentious issues 03:23 that we'll have to deal with. 03:24 Yeah. 03:26 Are you aware of some of the state actions? 03:32 I was going to say legislation, 03:33 but I don't think legislation is the word. 03:35 But the governor, as I remember, 03:37 of Mississippi has passed 03:39 some edicts recently on dealing with COVID. 03:44 And someone sent me a copy. 03:45 It was the official document from the state. 03:48 And it says there, among other things, 03:50 that committal proceedings 03:53 can be done over the phone, an evaluation for committal. 03:57 Yeah. 03:58 And then as a follow up, I saw the connection. 04:02 The detention centers 04:03 where people will be sent 04:04 for not going along with some of these things, 04:07 they're not to be supervised as before given the emergency. 04:12 Do you remember 04:14 in the Soviet Union toward the end there? 04:16 The dissidents, not all of them religious, 04:20 but in particular, the religious dissidents 04:22 were treated by the state as mentally defective. 04:26 You remember? No. 04:28 They would determine them by definition, 04:31 with the religious mania, 04:32 not understanding things for their own good. 04:34 And they were declared mentally incompetent 04:36 and imprisoned and subjected 04:39 to chemical procedures 04:43 since they'd lost their rights. 04:45 And I don't think 04:46 it's much different for us today. 04:49 Well, I mean, authoritarian governments, 04:52 they will do anything to shore up their power. 04:56 Well, let me put it another way from my own perspective. 04:59 I personally think 05:01 there's an element of QAnon type craziness 05:04 for someone 05:06 that's just so adamantly opposed to immunization 05:10 as though it's, you know, it's the tool of the devil. 05:13 You and I are probably alive at the advanced ages we are. 05:17 You're not as much as me, 05:18 but you know, anything over 35 05:21 in previous ages was luck, it was the luck of the draw. 05:25 And it's only because of immunization 05:27 that we have the lifespans we have today. 05:29 So it's just flat-earth thinking to be 05:32 adamantly opposed to immunization. 05:34 So that sort of troubles me. 05:37 And yet, of course, there's a conscience aspect. 05:41 And someone, 05:43 if they're under deep conviction 05:44 that they don't want to take it, 05:45 that should be respected. 05:47 But I don't particularly respect 05:49 just paranoid thinking. 05:51 And so I can see it's drifting toward a time 05:55 when people that invoke religion 05:58 to not go along with public health, 06:01 in this case, procedures, 06:02 they could easily be determined to be out of their mind. 06:06 Right, right. 06:08 I mean, in many ways, what we're seeing here 06:10 is a stress test for our entire system, 06:13 for our legal system, for our social system, 06:17 for our ability to function together 06:19 as a diverse community. 06:22 It is a stress test 06:23 and we are seeing in many ways that 06:25 it's functioning exactly as it should. 06:29 Because, you know, 06:30 we see instances of churches being closed, 06:33 and we see challenges. 06:35 And we see courts making decisions 06:38 which we agree with and courts making decisions 06:40 we disagree with. 06:41 But the system is working more or less as it should. 06:45 But, you know, some of the instances 06:47 that you mentioned, 06:48 you know, changes in the way 06:50 people are detained, et cetera. 06:52 I mean, again, this is a stress test 06:55 for our constitutional system of government. 06:59 And we as individuals, people of faith need to be 07:03 aware of what, 07:04 not just what the consequences are now, 07:07 but as you say, what the consequences 07:09 could potentially be if left unchecked. 07:14 You're probably aware of the book, 07:16 and I'm sure over the many years, 07:17 I've mentioned it before. 07:19 But when I first started with Liberty, 07:21 I was more free 07:23 with my opinions to our power group, 07:25 our public affairs of religious liberty group 07:27 within the church. 07:29 And I was going on about the War Powers Act 07:34 that exists in the English and the Australian system. 07:38 And somebody recommended a book, 07:39 which I've since read by the Rehnquist, 07:44 the chief justice years ago. 07:46 And it was called, All The Laws But One. 07:48 Have you read it or heard of it? 07:50 I have not. 07:51 And it cites the Roman maxim that in times of war, 07:53 all the laws are silent. 07:55 Right. 07:57 And Rehnquist looks within the US history of times 08:01 when the law was swept aside. 08:04 And Abraham Lincoln was one. 08:05 He suspended Habeas corpus 08:07 because he saw enemies everywhere. 08:09 He arrested a couple of hundred so-called enemies. 08:12 No charge, no trial, just locked them up. 08:15 And he was ready to do the same to the Supreme Court Justice 08:18 who said this was incipient dictatorship, 08:20 but was finally dissuaded from doing it. 08:23 And so there's many cases of that. 08:25 I think that's what we are heading toward. 08:29 You and I both believe in Bible prophecy. 08:32 And Jesus said there'll be increasing calamities, 08:36 you know, by land and sea, 08:38 and earthquakes, and pestilences and so on, 08:40 although these are not the end. 08:41 Remember, it's persecution that's the real end sign. 08:45 But in those sort of stresses, historically, 08:48 even in stable democracies 08:50 bring sort of chinks in the armor, don't they? 08:53 We are under the emergency at hand. 08:56 People can be dealt with rather summarily 08:59 and prejudices kick in and so on. 09:02 Right. 09:04 I mean, you know, 09:05 just think of the Second World War. 09:06 The internment of Japanese nationals 09:10 or Japanese Americans. 09:12 We do have a tendency 09:14 to cling to our constitutional protections 09:17 until there is an emergency. 09:20 And that is why we need to be vigilant. 09:24 You know, I think, Lincoln, 09:26 that all the areas that you're talking about here. 09:30 I think you also need to 09:32 add another layer on top of that. 09:33 And that is the issue of technology 09:35 and how technology plays into all of this. 09:39 You know, we see in a country such as China, 09:43 an authoritarian regime. 09:45 Where technologies 09:46 are being developed that increase surveillance capacity 09:51 that allow the government to control... 09:53 I mean, I was interviewing Ambassador Sam Brownback 09:56 who, as you know, 09:58 was a former ambassador at large 09:59 for international religious freedom 10:01 under the previous president. 10:03 And he said one thing that keeps him awake at night 10:06 is the idea that China is digitizing its currency. 10:10 And if it succeeds in doing that, 10:13 then it has this sort of unparalleled power 10:16 over its populants. 10:17 You know, if the government 10:19 has something against a certain group 10:23 or religious community, you know, 10:25 it's just a flick of a switch, a turnover. 10:28 We're almost there too. 10:29 Haven't you noticed during the COVID emergency, 10:31 they've been withdrawing cash 10:34 and it's been less useful as in commerce? 10:40 There's an attempt to withdraw cash. 10:43 And we are heading toward a digital future. 10:47 It's interesting that he was worried by that, 10:48 but that is actually in the planning here. 10:51 Well, it's interesting. 10:53 I think what worried him in particular was that 10:55 it was actively being utilized by an authoritarian regime. 11:00 And its purpose was specifically to control 11:04 a certain group within China, which is the Uyghur Muslims. 11:08 As you know, you know, they are a persecuted group. 11:09 Yeah, I read an editorial on it once. 11:11 Yeah. 11:12 The systematic imprisonment and abuse, 11:14 and they're mixed up in China's physical traffic 11:17 and the bodies of prisoners. 11:19 And many of them are Uyghurs. Exactly. 11:22 And China is not only developing the technology, 11:24 it's exporting it. 11:25 And so you have Pakistan, 11:27 which is increasingly becoming an ally of China. 11:31 Has followed China's pattern in installing controls 11:36 on the internet to control the flow of information 11:39 that its populants can access via the internet. 11:43 And so these tools of repression are increasingly 11:47 being used by authoritarian regimes. 11:50 Now I only raise this 11:53 because I think going into the future, 11:56 we need to be aware that 11:58 we're not just talking about old fashioned term, 12:00 you know, methods of repression 12:03 and abridgement of civil liberties. 12:05 Now we need to be aware of the potential 12:07 of technology to be utilized. 12:10 Well, it's more than the potential. 12:11 It's here and now. 12:15 What we are... 12:16 And we can't be Luddites and oppose technology. 12:20 I think it's inevitable. 12:23 All we can do is be vigilant 12:25 and call out the wrong attitudes 12:27 in the powers of the be 12:29 or in society that's allowing this. 12:32 But we're not quite as advanced as China. 12:34 I've spoken to people that have visited China, 12:36 and there are cameras about every hundred yards 12:40 along major roads that are photographing you 12:42 and they notice when you deviate. 12:44 So they're tracking you 12:45 in the real world the whole time. 12:47 We have a bit of the same. 12:48 It's not by accident that every time there's a crime... 12:51 January 6th is case in point. 12:54 There are myriad pictures of people, 12:56 not just selfie shots, 12:58 almost everywhere you go 13:00 there's a camera photographing you. 13:02 And, of course, your own cell phone is spying on you. 13:06 There are downward looking 13:09 radar satellites that can see 13:11 and track you in your home. 13:12 I mean, it's endless. 13:14 And I don't see how we can hold back the technology, 13:17 but we do need to hold back the attitude 13:21 that breaks down what Justice Coke in England 13:25 said that, you know, 13:26 "An Englishman's home is his castle." 13:28 There has to be some place you can retreat 13:31 from oversight and monitoring. 13:34 Yes, absolutely. 13:36 You know, it's passA(C) now, 13:37 but way before I was with Liberty, 13:39 I used to write on 1984, the novel by George Orwell. 13:43 But, you know, that's almost the norm now. 13:47 I don't pay for cable, but cable gives the ability 13:51 for them to look at you, 13:54 exactly as the character in Orwell's novel 13:57 was being watched by the television. 13:59 We're becoming increasingly comfortable 14:01 with surveillance of all kinds. 14:03 Absolutely. 14:04 And I think that's with us till the end of time. 14:07 But it just means that we've got, 14:08 as you say, we've got to 14:10 up our game on protecting civil and religious liberty. 14:13 Yes. 14:15 Let's take a short break and then I'll come back 14:17 and we'll look ahead to the future, 14:18 and how you and Liberty Magazine 14:20 and all of us are going to relate to these challenges. |
Revised 2021-10-28