Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI210509A
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00:28 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:30 This is your program designed to bring you 00:32 up to speed on religious liberty in the US 00:35 and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, for 22 years editor 00:41 of Liberty Magazine and almost as long 00:44 the guide on this program. 00:46 But thereby hangs a tale because the guest 00:49 on this program is Bettina Crouse, 00:51 the relatively newly minted editor of Liberty Magazine 00:55 following my notification that I would be beginning 00:58 the retirement process, not yet from this program. 01:02 So welcome, Bettina. 01:05 It's a privilege to be with you, Lincoln. 01:07 Yes, and at the risk of alienating or perhaps 01:12 a calculated risk, they won't even know 01:14 what I'm talking about. 01:15 I'll say that this is my Myra Breckinridge moment, 01:20 testing to see if you know. 01:23 You're the first female editor of Liberty Magazine. 01:27 Correct. And also important, I do. 01:30 The second Australian, but the first woman editor. 01:35 Correct. 01:36 As I said before, I was 22 years in the job 01:40 and before me, Cliff Goldstein only 7 years, 01:43 but before him, Roland Hegstad, 34 years. 01:47 So like me, you're not likely to equal that. 01:52 No, I don't think so, Lincoln. 01:55 And I don't know 01:57 what your plans are for the future, 01:59 but I remember shortly after I started editing, 02:03 the then associate, 02:04 she said to me one day early on, 02:06 she said, "I guess you're going to be retiring in this job." 02:10 It was like she punched me in the mouth, 02:13 I'd never even thought about retiring, 02:14 but it turned out to be correct. 02:18 So you've got a great history in this magazine behind you, 02:21 you've got the world ahead of you. 02:24 I'm drifting into John Milton's Paradise Lost, you know, 02:28 as the angel bids the guilty pair farewell, 02:31 it says, "The world before them." 02:33 What to do? Providence their guide. 02:37 And I'm sure providence will guide you 02:38 as you lead out in a very difficult time. 02:42 What I'd like to do on this first program, 02:43 let's talk a bit about where you're from 02:47 and what you bring to the program. 02:49 And I'll say one thing before you get to it, 02:52 I do remember 20 years ago 02:54 you interviewed to be the associate 02:57 on Liberty Magazine. 02:58 That's right. 03:00 So I know you have a long interest. 03:02 I do have a long interest in Liberty Magazine, 03:05 you're so right. 03:06 And you've mentioned that we share a similar accent. 03:08 Right. Which is pure chance as you well know. 03:12 It's got nothing to do with your selection 03:14 and I'm very happy for Liberty and for you, 03:17 but I had nothing to do with it. 03:19 Yeah, but I am a fellow Australian. 03:21 Yes. Sorry, what was that? 03:25 A fellow Australian. 03:26 A fellow Australian, indeed. 03:28 And again, that's probably not 03:29 going to be understandable to too many people. 03:33 But, you know, 03:34 I have been living in this country for 24 years 03:39 and would you believe we came to America, 03:42 my husband Gary and I, for intending to stay 03:45 just for one or two years. 03:49 But as these things do, it grew. 03:52 The adventure grew and we're still here today 03:55 and very much at home. 03:58 My husband is Gary Crouse, 04:00 he is director of Adventist Mission for the Seventh-day 04:03 Adventist World Church and together, 04:08 you know, we've made our home here, 04:10 but we still travel back to Australia to visit family, 04:13 as I know you do too, Lincoln. 04:15 Yes. Yeah. 04:17 What stimulated your interest though in religious 04:20 liberty generally? 04:22 And like I say, I know it goes back 20 plus years. 04:26 It's interesting because in growing up, 04:29 I grew up in a strong Christian home. 04:31 But really, religious liberty wasn't on my radar 04:34 until I got to law school. 04:37 Now, I attended law school in Australia 04:40 and I remember sitting in constitutional law class 04:44 and becoming absolutely fascinated by the concept 04:48 of constitutions because here you have these blue prints 04:53 for how societies should operate 04:55 and constitutional law 04:59 really became my love when it came to law. 05:04 In fact, you know, it is complete coincidence, 05:07 but when I came to choose 05:08 my research thesis for my honors year at law school, 05:12 I actually chose to compare the Australian Constitution 05:16 with the US Constitution. 05:18 And much of the Australian one is modeled on the US, 05:21 of course. 05:22 Well, yes. Exactly. 05:24 I mean, word for word they are very, very similar. 05:27 Section 116 of the Australian Constitution 05:30 and the religion clauses in the American Constitution, 05:35 but in Australia, religious freedom protection is very, 05:40 very different, it's very, very narrow. 05:42 It's perceived as a restraint on government, 05:47 rather than a positive, individual human right and, 05:52 of course, that has impacted the jurisprudence around 05:55 religious freedom compared to the US, 05:57 where it is much more a dynamic, 05:59 alive area of legal study. 06:03 So, you know, Lincoln, maybe that was a little bit 06:06 of foreshadowing as to where my interests 06:09 would lie in the future, 06:10 but I chose to explore that aspect of constitutional 06:14 law at law school. 06:16 So that is where my interest in religious freedom began. 06:20 But when it got to the US, that's when it really 06:22 started to take off. 06:24 And, of course, it's part of the founding narrative 06:28 of the United States about religious liberty 06:30 and how important it is. 06:33 I was about to say myth, but myth 06:35 is inappropriate because it's true, 06:37 but yet it has been mythologized I think beyond 06:41 the law in some ways 06:42 and that's going to be your job to keep it on the straight 06:44 and narrow. 06:46 Yes, most certainly. 06:48 To walk in your footsteps, Lincoln. 06:49 Well, you know, I follow the law closely, 06:53 but I'm not a lawyer, but I love history 06:55 and I've read and still read an awful lot of history. 06:59 And, you know, 07:00 I judge it a little more than just law 07:02 and in some ways I think the Australian experience 07:07 and the American experience are not that dissimilar 07:10 because they both derive from the English experience. 07:13 And, of course, even after 9/11, 07:16 the lawyers were quoting the Magna Carta at Runnymede, 07:21 and Thomas Jefferson, of course was quoting English 07:25 common law for arguing its connection, 07:28 even though I remember Justice Scalia just boohooing it, 07:31 nothing to do with it. 07:33 But, you know, I think he was being 07:35 facetious because it has everything to do with 07:37 how you see even the American law today. 07:41 But you have to see US, 07:43 the political and the legal landscape in the US 07:47 is unique in the way that it has viewed religious 07:51 freedom and the way it has become embedded in the culture. 07:56 I mean, there is really no other 07:58 parallel around the world. 07:59 And that makes... And that makes us... 08:02 It's a guiding light for religious freedom, 08:05 even if it's not always kept well. 08:09 The mere existence of the Constitution 08:12 and the experience that lies behind it is powerful. 08:16 It encourages many people in many countries 08:19 toward emulating it. 08:22 Right. 08:23 And, you know, more recently, 08:25 just in the past couple of decades, 08:27 religious freedom as an active part of US 08:29 foreign policy has become very important, 08:33 you know, with the passage of the International Religious 08:35 Freedom Act back in the 1990s. 08:38 Protecting and promoting religious freedom abroad 08:41 is actually one of the core mandates 08:45 of the US State Department. 08:46 Yes. 08:48 Lot we can talk about and you will be writing 08:52 about this and maybe on this program 08:55 talking about them in the future. 08:57 I've got to tell you one thing 08:59 and I'd like your response to this. 09:01 I know law is vital 09:03 and government's run by lawyers by and large, 09:07 but at times I've been troubled that even our 09:10 church in analyzing religious liberty, 09:13 we tend to judge it on legal precedent 09:16 or legal increments, 09:19 when my judgment is, even in countries 09:22 of established law, like England, Australia 09:25 and the US, it's social movements 09:28 and grand swirls of shifting public opinion that have 09:32 greater and more sudden effects than, 09:35 you know, continuing litigation 09:37 or legal actions. 09:43 You know, it's interesting, Lincoln, because there was 09:46 a study recently on the US Supreme Court 09:49 and its track record in regard to how it decides 09:52 First Amendment cases. 09:54 And it looked at all the decisions over 09:57 the past 70 years, 09:59 you know, right from Chief Justice Burger, 10:02 right through to the current Chief Justice John Roberts 10:07 and it found this sort of trajectory of pro-religion 10:12 cases or decisions. 10:15 So back in the 1950s and 60s about 41% 10:18 of the Supreme Court cases were decided in favor 10:21 of religion and today it's near 75, 80% 10:27 of the cases are decided in a pro-religion way. 10:32 But if we were looking just at that, we would say, 10:35 "Oh, religious freedom is alive and well and protected." 10:39 But as you were saying, it's not just, 10:42 you can't just look to the courts, 10:44 you can't just look to the legal structures, 10:46 you have to look at the culture that is underlying 10:50 those structures because they are important, 10:53 not just for religious freedom now, but as a predictor 10:57 of how religious freedom will be understood 10:59 and protected in the future. 11:02 And the way that I've described it lately 11:04 and I'm sure you'll be writing, 11:05 if not using the same term. 11:07 I say that we're entering an era of religious entitlement 11:11 for particular religious view points, 11:13 which explains a lot of those cases 11:16 of the Supreme Court and other courts 11:18 that look positive, but if you examine them, 11:21 since the collapse of the Soviet Union 11:24 and the fall of the Berlin Wall, in my view, 11:27 we've narrowed our application 11:28 of religious liberty mightily toward 11:31 the Christian nationalism in the United States. 11:36 It's not all Protestant, not all Catholic, 11:38 but it's a coalition of the so-called 11:40 religious right. 11:41 And yes, they're getting privileges 11:43 and mark outs in an amazing way, 11:46 but I don't see that on the periphery religious 11:49 liberty is strengthening in the US, the contrary. 11:53 No. 11:55 You know, in many ways religious freedom 11:56 as a value has become devalued, 12:02 it's become entangled with partisan politics. 12:05 You know, there was another study 12:07 looking at this actual 12:12 idea that politics and religious freedom 12:16 have become entwined. 12:18 So if you are on the Conservative side, 12:20 you have a more positive view of religious freedom, 12:22 if you're on the Liberal side, you have a more negative side. 12:25 And for me, that bodes poorly for the future because 12:29 if you cannot discuss religious freedom as a transcended 12:32 overarching concept, you have lost something 12:37 vital from the concept of religious freedom. 12:39 And this is what I noticed recently with liberty, 12:43 more of the feedback 12:45 than I ever noticed before from people 12:47 were those angry that we were or me, 12:51 particularly sometimes, 12:52 I was apparently sympathetic to the religious rights 12:56 of groups that they found abhorrent. 12:59 And this is the irony of religious liberty. 13:03 Unless you grant the most full freedom, 13:06 the same as you would want to the most objectionable 13:10 religious expression, it means that nobody 13:12 really has religious freedom. 13:15 It's fascinating. 13:16 I was, as you know Lincoln, I represented 13:19 the Adventist Church in my previous job on Capitol Hill 13:23 and in their capacity attended various meetings 13:26 of advocacy groups. 13:28 And I remember one particular meeting, 13:31 when an advocate for a Muslim group stood up 13:36 and said, "In India our rights are abridged, 13:39 we are discriminated against as a religious minority for, 13:44 you know, just simply existing." 13:47 And then the very next person 13:49 who got up was a member of a Hindu advocacy group, 13:53 who said, "In Pakistan, 13:55 the Muslim majority oppresses us 13:58 and we're discriminated against, 13:59 we don't have basic rights." 14:01 And so there's just grand irony that in one context 14:07 a group is oppressed and then another group, 14:09 another context that same group the oppressor. 14:14 And, you know, 14:15 unless we start to recognize that even in ourselves, 14:18 even in a country such as America, 14:21 which is, you know, profoundly respectful 14:24 of the idea of religious freedom for all people, 14:27 we can start to drift into this idea that religious 14:29 freedom is for me and not for anyone else. 14:34 But, Lincoln, you're absolutely right. 14:36 You know, unless we are prepared to extend 14:39 the same freedoms to others, then religious freedom 14:42 as a concept has been destroyed, 14:44 it no longer exists. 14:46 Absolutely. 14:47 It's a good point to take a break, 14:49 where you're saying I'm right. 14:51 I will frame that, I didn't hear it very much. 14:54 Let's take a short break and I'll be back to continue 14:57 discussing with the new editor 14:59 of Liberty Magazine Bettina Crouse. |
Revised 2021-10-21